Matt, I have done nothing of the sort. I've shared experiences, asked questions, made observations and, mostly, soaked up people's knowledge. I really wish there was a forum like this when I was playing around the traps in my youth.Respectfully, I'm just a little surprised that you and others feel the need to continually lecture about an epiphany usually attained by most people who are serious.
I dont agree with this. Listen to John Coltrane play on Giant Steps. Then listen to Ascension. This was a man who learned the rules, and then he absolutely shattered them. And thats why it isnt just sqeuaks and squonks on vinyl, because he knew what he was doing, via his knowledge of harmony, to give substance to his music. Im a proponent of learning the rules before you decide you can just break them (many people dont even make that decision, they just try and pass off BS as something because they dont know what theyre doing. Sadly, sometimes it catches on).As I said, one allegedly inadequate self-taught musician won't change much, but if there's a lot of them, then new things happen.
Yes indeed Britt and NOTHING comes out of a vacuum especially anything of lasting quality musically speaking as time has already shown us and the drumming element contained in it. The creative art of playing music is a constant act in motion always changing/evolving never sitting still as you go along when one put one's soul, heart, love of doing it, concept into the "feel' or feeling in the music that one wants to deliver with one's personal "technique" of playing the instrument at hand.I dont agree with this. Listen to John Coltrane play on Giant Steps. Then listen to Ascension. This was a man who learned the rules, and then he absolutely shattered them. And thats why it isnt just sqeuaks and squonks on vinyl, because he knew what he was doing, via his knowledge of harmony, to give substance to his music. Im a proponent of learning the rules before you decide you can just break them (many people dont even make that decision, they just try and pass off BS as something because they dont know what theyre doing. Sadly, sometimes it catches on).
Hi Stan,I remember back in 79 this very question coming up at a drum clinic in Seattle hosted by the great Louie Bellson. Louie's response was clear and to the point when the question of technique/feel came up to all those in attendance. You need to decide how much "technique" you need to get across your musical "point of view" and ideas on the drums and especially in regards to the context of playing ensemble music with others. After that the subject of stand alone technique/chops only becomes a case of "diminishing returns" according to Louie. In his case as a jazz musician he stated "if it aint got the swing it don't mean a thing" as a practical example of personal wisdom on the subject.
Everyone is different as are all snowflakes so as with what we want to get across musically speaking. So we each have to decide how to crack this personal equation and find a good balance point on what we truly need and have to say regarding this timeless debated subject of technique and feel.
You are most welcome Ken and the learning curve for ALL of us regardless of experience and age is a creative learning process always in constant motion and flex directly related to our feel/technique/concept which all change and become fined tuned as time goes on.Hi Stan,
It’s always great to read your posts.
One of the things that I've been struggling with and have shared with you both personally and on the forum, is really getting my group to groove. I read in The Jazz Drummer's Workshop where John said that many of the great rhythm sections did not play in sync. The bass was behind the drummer or vice versa. He said, “As long as the relationship between the bass player’s placement of the beat and the drummer’s placement of the beat is consistent, it will groove.” I read Peter Erskine saying something similar in Drumhead magazine. He says, “The role of the rhythm section is not to play in unison but to provide contrast.”
When he first joined Weather Report, he had a heard time with keeping the band together. One day when the band lost the downbeat he struggled to get it back on track. Joe Zawinul had a fit after the show and said he should just let the time happen with a lot of %^&^ #%%$, so it was important to him.
I've learned, the hard way that you have to allow the guys to do what they want to do, and as long as you are focused, it will come in to place, (and if not you can just roll!) I remember some one told me that once. You know I’ve been putting your great advise into action.
Knowing how to give players what they need is really the art form, and now when I listen back to my band, I am happy that we are able to groove.
So, is your contribution here to make snide comments when someone believes your cynicism is pointless? I mean, all you ever seem to do on posts is say something unsubstantiated and cocky, wait for the response, then make a comment like the one above if the other guy dares appear more clever. This is actually a pretty good thread. I'm also a big boy who can take it. Why not talk nice and you'll get better responses.Actually Matt, they're grapes, and preferably not the sour kind.
Agree with aydee in that not practising much is generally poor career move, but I don't think genius is necessary to succeed with a simple technique. It's more about finding a fit with a band with idiosyncratic appeal.You need to decide how much "technique" you need to get across your musical "point of view" and ideas on the drums and especially in regards to the context of playing ensemble music with others. After that the subject of stand alone technique/chops only becomes a case of "diminishing returns" ...
I agree that technique is not an issue with someone having consummate skill, but having no technique makes technique an issue, unless your creative vision involves only things that involve no technique. I guess Im just reiterating the point that technique is a means to an ends, having a massive amount can never hurt if you know how to use it correctly, but having none can hurt even those with a high amount of musical sensibility. I just cant see why you wouldnt want a large amount of technique. How can it be detrimental. Its like someone who has a huge revolver in a holster, but they never shoot it unless they absolutely have to, but its always there and people can always see it so they never have to use it. Its when people get trigger happy that we have a problem.Brian Eno was quoted as saying that his favourite musicians were those with either consummate technical skill or no technical skill because they were the ones who were most expressive; ie. technique is not an issue with them.
Care to expand on that? Leftist ideologies are characterised by a lack of scientific understanding? Huh?Exactly. I'm so sick and tired of going concerts where the crowd is supposedly "enjoying" a performance without actually knowing the scientific concepts behind it. It smacks of typical leftist ideologies.
Hmm, that depends, Tom. What is the player's primary focus - their drumming or the songs? Does the drummer use his or her skills for good or for evil?I think for a drummer to spend a lot of time getting their technique right, they must enjoy playing the drums so much that feel must be a part of their drumming in some way.
Yes Aydee, but, as per my reply to Tom's post, will our powers be used for good or will we turn to the Dark Side of Darth Dream Theater?... It makes 'you' a potentially more potent 'YOU', if that makes sense. And with all your idiosyncrasies intact. It could only help even if you choose discard it.
... Ringo's groove for 'Ticket to Ride' might have been somewhat different if he was a better schooled drummer, but it would have still been Ringo and it would have still been special.
... Trouble is that this discussion is expanding to define artistic expression which then incorporates way too many other esoterical things like life, culture, politics, religion, etc etc .. as well in addition to feel & technique.
Britt, perhaps it's not a matter of creative vision that involves no technique but a vision that barely even thinks about technical aspects?... having no technique makes technique an issue, unless your creative vision involves only things that involve no technique.