Double strokes

Siftyzod

Member
Ok i know this subject has been posted lots.

Now is there a secret to this..im sure ur fingers must give up and it becomes like a buzz roll and the sticks just bounce...i have been trying to learn this roll for over 5yrs and cant get it even or even close to faster than 60bpm for about 20 seconds singles seem more useful at this point than spending hours a day trying to figure out what im doing wrong ( i have been trying to get the "technique" for the last year up to 5hrs a day)
so am i doing something wrong? i have a drum tutor and he told me ur fingers leave this sticks and they do all the work..
my theory not even i have watched a lot of ppl doing them and not one looks like they are using their fingers more like they are just pushing the stick into the head..
so any help here would be good as im starting to think its one of those things unless u work out ur being scammed and there is no finger movement and it suppose to slow u down from learning
i dont know but i think i might start trying to learn to do it from the wrist only seems like its a more believable option than fingers

anyone care to correct me?
 
B

bongo

Guest
Now is there a secret to this..im sure ur fingers must give up and it becomes like a buzz roll and the sticks just bounce...
No No No!

Execute each stoke separately ... don't rely on the bounce ... assist the second beat with a finger so to get an accent ..... practice on a practice pad with some rebound but don't use rebound as a crutch, you should be able to do a doublestroke on a soft surface fast with no rebound (like your leg) ..... it is all in the wrist and fingers. For each double go down with the wrist, then snap with the fingers. Accenting the second note cleans it up & adds precision, but becomes less pronounced as you cross a certain speed threshold.... It is NOT a buzz roll.
 

ZootELoops

Senior Member
I've been working double-strokes with my instructor for 2 minutes each lesson over the last 10 lessons. Plus I practice for 2 minutes each day in between. I've gone from 60bpm to almost 100. Most recently I realized that the practice surface I was using was allowing for too much bounce and I was compensating by not using my fingers. This is made obvious as we got to the higher tempo. I now need to slow it back down, have been practicing on a softer surface with less bounce (pillow) and it's gotten better.
Just remember it is two separate strokes, not a buzz-roll. Start off slow and work your way up 2-4bpm each week.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
Indeed, this has been covered A LOT in this forum. My (and others) tips are well-documented. But I will say once again:

Do NOT let the second stroke be a bounce.

If you can't control that, then make the second stroke an accent so that you are controlling each stroke.

The space between each stroke must be even.

If the spaces become uneven, slow your tempo to the point where they are even again.

Once you are completely comfortable with the feeling and sticking, then you should speed up slightly. Starting slow and gradually speeding up until the roll falls apart is a repetitively counterproductive process that accomplishes nothing and could go on a lifetime, never resulting in a good roll. Start slow and STAY slow until you've got it, then move to a slightly faster tempo. If this takes 10 minutes, that's fine. If it takes 10 days, that's fine. But there's no reason to struggle with it for years.

60bpm is not very fast, nor is 100bpm. Traditional march tempo ranges from 120-132bpm and that's where an open roll is at a 'correct' sounding tempo.

Either way, tempo alone is not a measurement of a good roll - evenness of volume and the space between the strokes are what govern a quality roll.

But a roll is far from impossible, it's how it's practiced that makes the difference.

Bermuda
 

Siftyzod

Member
ok so what is the right way to practice them..how do u measure if they are evenly spaced?
i tell ya this subject makes me want to stop drumming ..wouldnt be the first time the double stroke roll has made me stop drumming i gave up for 5yrs knowing i would never master it...and if i cant master something then u cant be that good or maybe its not your thing
and can someone actually explain the technique...im still not convinced its actually possible with fingers i think its more of a buzz roll im going to try figure out a way later on today that u can use r bounce l bounce to achieve the roll without using my fingers or wrist but by driving the stick into the head of the snare, sorry if this seems negative but im just at the point of thinking why would u bother working with something u have never used or may never actually be able to do...
 

nfiora

Member
use a metrenome play 8th note double strokes building ur way up rom 100bpm to 200 then go back to 100 but play 16th notes build ur way up as high as u can. right now im at about 180 bpm 16th notes and i practice this way every day. You can do this with parradidles as well as most other rudements. After a couple weeks of this you will notice a signifigant difference in your playing.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
ok so what is the right way to practice them..how do u measure if they are evenly spaced?
You can initially measure spacing between strokes by ear. If you genuinely cannot tell if your strokes are evenly spaced from one another, then you need the kind of interaction that only a teacher can give. Reading answers/suggestions here (or in a book or video) can only take you so far anyway. There is a lot of basic technique and rudiments where you need to have someone instruct, correct, and critique you in person.

We can tell you things, but being shown them is more effective.

Bermuda
 

Siftyzod

Member
You can initially measure spacing between strokes by ear. If you genuinely cannot tell if your strokes are evenly spaced from one another, then you need the kind of interaction that only a teacher can give. Reading answers/suggestions here (or in a book or video) can only take you so far anyway. There is a lot of basic technique and rudiments where you need to have someone instruct, correct, and critique you in person.

We can tell you things, but being shown them is more effective.

Bermuda
hi again
i do have a tutor at the moment but not getting much help there..he shows me he can play it but not what i need to do from here...cant get much better than a double grad from a jazz school.
i just had a private message telling me that u let the stick bounce twice before u close ur fingers..that makes more sense cause i cant see your fingers go at 300-400 bpm never made and sense now it makes a little more sense that ur fingers dont move they just close after the second strike
is this correct?
im not going to try and use this if its not correct
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
You do NOT let the sticks bounce when developing a correct open/double-stroke roll - period. It also sounds like you need a teacher who can guide you on the basics and rudiments of drumming. Learning to play and apply what you've learned will come later.

If you really want to focus on rolls, you should seek someone from a local corps, or at least a college level orchestral player for guidance.

Bermuda
 

trysthedrummer

Senior Member
The more control you have then the sticks should move the same with the stick. Do a double and let the stick return up after the bounce, still keeping the fingers touching the stick.
 

denisri

Silver Member
Hi
Practice very slow 1/8 notes(say 53 BPM)..one measure of singles,one doubles and one as buzz roll. Practice two type of strokes...wrist and forearm stroke.
Play bass drum on 1 and 3.....Hi hat on 2 and 4. Locked into your metronome.
Ten minutes per day. Increase tempo 3 BPM/week.
In 3 months you will have a killer double stroke roll. Find a good instructor. Denis
 

Siftyzod

Member
hi have been trying different things today have decided the double stroke roll is a waste of time so going to flag it played drums for over 20years without it and answering to everyone else yes i do currently have a tutor yes he does something that is a double stroke but have also told him im over learning teach me stuff i can actually use still think there is something not being told like it is a buzz roll of some type
cheers
 

Boomka

Platinum Member
hi have been trying different things today have decided the double stroke roll is a waste of time so going to flag it played drums for over 20years without it and answering to everyone else yes i do currently have a tutor yes he does something that is a double stroke but have also told him im over learning teach me stuff i can actually use still think there is something not being told like it is a buzz roll of some type
cheers
How do you know you can't use one if you can't do one?
 
B

bongo

Guest
hi have been trying different things today have decided the double stroke roll is a waste of time ...... teach me stuff i can actually use ......still think there is something not being told like it is a buzz roll of some type
cheers
A quitter, not a hitter....

I won't waste my keyboard explaining how you are wrong...
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
A quitter, not a hitter....
Oooh, good one!

I employ rolls almost every time I play, whether it's country, blues, rock, oldies, jazz & swing... whatever. It may be as brief as RRLL, or in a big flourish at the end of a song (hey Sifty, guess what - lots of rolls in there!) but the technique is the same, and it's important to do it right.

Then again, I make my living playing drums... what could I possibly know about rolls?

Bermuda
 

Siftyzod

Member
Oooh, good one!

I employ rolls almost every time I play, whether it's country, blues, rock, oldies, jazz & swing... whatever. It may be as brief as RRLL, or in a big flourish at the end of a song (hey Sifty, guess what - lots of rolls in there!) but the technique is the same, and it's important to do it right.

Then again, I make my living playing drums... what could I possibly know about rolls?

Bermuda
k cool
nothing wrong with sticking to singles....so can some cant nothing to get stressed about really...im just over trying to work it out prefer to learn some funk or new style of music
 

Ian Ballard

Silver Member
Bermuda is right on the money.

Controlling the second stroke almost requires that you isolate the second stroke. I teach my students--before tackling doubles--to develop and "up" stroke from an inch off the head. Once you are able to "pop" the stick upward, with a light squeeze of the fingers (depends on the grip of course) easily, it's time integrate that into "doubling your singles".

Most people develop singles first, or at least drumset players do. If you think about it, you are basically doubling your singles. If you are playing slow 16ths, doubling them makes them 32nd notes which are, obviously, faster. If you think about doubles as an extension of singles, you'll develop an automatic "second" stroke when you've developed the "up" stroke.

The best way to get good, even doubles, is to do what I stated above and to play good, solid singles--slowly--and then practice doubling them and making them sound as even as the singles. Play a couple bars of 16ths, then double them, making 32nds.

Once you get a handle on working on this simple "doubling" exercise, then you can go up the rhythm scale, using the multiplier concept:

Start with s-l-o-w quarter notes... double them to 1/8th notes... play 1/8th note singles and double them to 1/16ths... play 1/16th singles and then double them to 32nds... etc, etc.

After this, you can start using the "incremental rhythm scale" and use triplets, 5's, 6's, 7's, 9's... etc.
 

bermuda

Drummerworld Pro Drummer - Administrator
k cool
nothing wrong with sticking to singles....
If you want to work that hard, go ahead. Doubles are much easier to maintain speed, and are more controllable at low and moderate volumes.

I'm not a motivational speaker, but let me give this a try. When there's a style I don't know... I go out of my way to learn it. I don't back down and say I already know enough to get by. We all have to learn and grow in order to just keep current. When we stop growing, we're actually going backwards. Pretty soon a 15-year-old is drumming circles around us and we wonder why.

Of course you can do what you want, but remember, nobody ever had a successful career in music by refusing to grow.

Bermuda
 
Top