"Dotted" notes.

MattRitter

Senior Member
Nice bouncing ideas back and forth with you Matt!
Thanks, Jeff. I enjoyed our back and forth too. This was a good thread. Sometimes, the forum really pushes me to clarify and expand my drumming knowledge.

I'll definitely check out the books you recommended. I'd also be interested in purchasing your own book, if it's for sale already. Just let me know how to order a copy.

Thanks again!
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Matt, I tried your appraoch on some of my students, as a review, and it does seem so far to be a clearer explanation of the dotted note. After you explained it the final time, I really saw how straight forward it is. It does make a lot of sense.
 

MattRitter

Senior Member
Matt, I tried your appraoch on some of my students, as a review, and it does seem so far to be a clearer explanation of the dotted note. After you explained it the final time, I really saw how straight forward it is. It does make a lot of sense.
Hey, Ken! That's the best news I heard all day!

By the way, I can't personally take credit for that approach. I first saw dots explained that way in the Gerald Eskelin book I mentioned. It was the first time that dots really made sense to me. Then I did some research on the historical origin of the dot, and it seems that its original purpose was to indicate "three-ness" instead of "two-ness," so to speak. In any case, glad you tried it out with some success. Thanks for letting me know!
 
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Dawson49

Member
Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. Now I am understanding what the dotted notes equates to, i.e. a dotted quarter note is three 8th notes?
Yes, equal in value to three 8th notes.

So that brings me to the counting part. What would three 8th notes be counted as? 1 e and a 2 e and a 3?

No, that's counting in 16th notes.

It would be more like 1 and 2 and, etc.
 

MattRitter

Senior Member
Great stuff. Thanks to all of you. Now I am understanding what the dotted notes equates to, i.e. a dotted quarter note is three 8th notes?
So that brings me to the counting part. What would three 8th notes be counted as? 1 e and a 2 e and a 3?
Hey, Stevo

Dawson49 is correct in the stuff that he said in his response.

I want to add that maybe it's time for you to get assistance from a private teacher. When you asked about dots, there was an avalanche of responses because the answer was a relatively straight-forward mathematical answer. Now that you're asking about counting, take note that there have been almost no responses!

I think the reason is that counting is somewhat less cut-and-dry, so we're not sure how to answer you. At least, I can say that is the case for myself. The count depends on the context. What Dawson49 said about counting 8th notes with "1 and 2 and, etc." will get you through most situations. However, there are many variables that determine the way to count something. For example, the time signature. Maybe you will have three 8th notes in 6/8 time...or three 8th notes in cut time. These different scenarios generally require different ways of counting. I fear that it's too much for any of us to thoroughly explain in this setting. I recommend finding a teacher who will guide you through this in a systematic way. Plus, if you find the right teacher, it will be FUN to take lessons! Definitely consider it.
 
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tezzerii

Member
You know, I've never known it described that way. I think it's

- BRILLIANT!!!!

Often the simplest ideas are the best - and the hardest to come by.
 

MattRitter

Senior Member
You know, I've never known it described that way. I think it's

- BRILLIANT!!!!

Often the simplest ideas are the best - and the hardest to come by.
I felt the same way when I first heard it.

Imagine if we told kids that a tricycle was like a bicycle but with 50% more wheels! hahaha! We'd have a lot of confused kids out there! As I mentioned in an earlier post, my first teacher said "a dot increases the value of a note by 50%," and I was confused for about a decade or so.

My first teacher was not doing something "wrong." His explanation was basically the traditional explanation, as you can see from all the various posts in this thread. I can't fault him or any teacher who uses that explanation.

I have just found that sometimes bucking tradition can be a good thing. Plus...as I pointed out a few times already...by using the explanation about "dividing into 3 of the next smaller note value," we are bucking the CURRENT tradition but connecting to an ANCIENT one. For me, that has been the way to go on this topic.
 

stevo

Senior Member
Matt, thanks.
I understand what your saying. And your explanation of "dotted" notes helped me get my mind around that.
As far as the counting aspect, and despite my example in sixteenths notes... I knew better, I get the part as to the metrics of the song.
Thanks to all for your valuable input. That's why this website is so important to us all!
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
Hmmm...this is somewhat confusing. If a half note were tied to a quarter note, would a trumpet player really stop on beat 3? I don't know anything about trumpet, but I would assume a half note tied to a quarter note is asking for 3 full quarter notes of sound. Is this incorrect in terms of the way that trumpet players interpret notation?
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.

Now Matt, you should love this. What it is saying is that a dotted not does not equal a note and then half the value of that note tied, which is why I brought it up; but it equals three times half that note, as you teach it and have made it clear for us. :)
 

MattRitter

Senior Member
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.

Now Matt, you should love this. What it is saying is that a dotted not does not equal a note and then half the value of that note tied, which is why I brought it up; but it equals three times half that note, as you teach it and have made it clear for us. :)
Wow- very interesting, Ken. So, it sounds like horn players interpret tied notes in much the same way that drummers interpret tied rolls.

To use your example of a half note tied to a quarter note...

Normally, a half note roll tied to a quarter note would end right on the quarter note. From what you're saying, it sounds like this interpretation is paralleled by other instrumentalists as well. Definitely interesting to find this out. Thanks!
 
J

jay norem

Guest
I have been asking around, and it seems that the general convention is that a note tied to a another note, say a half note to a quarter note, ends precisely on the note that is tied. So in the aforementioned example the note would end on the down beat of the quarter note. So the trumpet player would end on 3 and not carry the note through to the full duration of the quarter note.
But you're leaving out phrasing, the slur, the curved line that shows how the notes are to be phrased. You're talking about melody now, which a drum can't play. And also you're leaving out the dot that shows when a note is to be played short, and the dash that shows that the note is to be held for its full value. All these have to do with how a musicial phrase is to be articulated, it's not just the notes themselves.
Generally it's up to the composer. If I write a dotted half note then I want that note to be held for three quarter notes, depending on the context, on what comes next. Context, phrasing, that's what determines it.
Now a drummer can only play a quarter note the same way he plays an eighth note. If I played a quarter note, an eighth note, and then a sixteenth note on a snare drum could anyone tell the difference? But you could tell the difference if those notes were played on a trumpet.
 

Deltadrummer

Platinum Member
But you're leaving out phrasing, the slur, the curved line that shows how the notes are to be phrased. You're talking about melody now, which a drum can't play. And also you're leaving out the dot that shows when a note is to be played short, and the dash that shows that the note is to be held for its full value. All these have to do with how a musicial phrase is to be articulated, it's not just the notes themselves.
Generally it's up to the composer. If I write a dotted half note then I want that note to be held for three quarter notes, depending on the context, on what comes next. Context, phrasing, that's what determines it.
Now a drummer can only play a quarter note the same way he plays an eighth note. If I played a quarter note, an eighth note, and then a sixteenth note on a snare drum could anyone tell the difference? But you could tell the difference if those notes were played on a trumpet.
Not really. I am talking about the convention and how the idea is interpretted. Once you add an articulation marking, you are reinterpretting the idea. But the idea in and of itself is interpretted the same way for drummers, through the performance of the roll, and horn players
 
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