Anybody do this?

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
Take the money beat for instance. The hi hat and bass drum hits that line up together are played in perfect unison, no flams, as usual. But the snare is purposely flammed in relation to the hi hat hits, slightly after the hi hat hit.

Everything is right on the beat/click, save for the snare, which lags a bit. So the time chugs forward normally, but the snare hit sounds a bit fatter because there's a little time delay built into the flam.

I kind of just discovered this. I spent my whole life trying to hit right. On. The. Money. Burying the click if you will. I tried the flammed snare thing at my gig Saturday night, just for a few hits to see if it sounded detrimental. It didn't. But I didn't make an effort to do it a lot. I just wanted to try it. It seemed to be OK. I might be exploring this further. It might be a good thing for certain songs.

Anyone do this?
 

Hollywood Jim

Platinum Member
Hum, sounds like a good idea. I never tried this with the money beat.

Sometimes I use a very short flam on the snare during slow blues songs. I use both sticks and I do it for usually just the bridge/guitar solo part to make things sound more interesting.

Thanks Larry, I'll try it on the money beat.


.
 

spleeeeen

Platinum Member
So you're talking about a way of moving a backbeat behind just a tad without moving the right hand (hi hat) back to go with it, yes?
 

Odd-Arne Oseberg

Platinum Member
It's a common trick.

I guess everyone responds a little different to it.

To me it gives that extra bit of groovy tension, you know, when you start nodding your head sort of sideways because there's actual space with character in the groove.
 

RIneuron

Senior Member
If I understand you right, isn't this used a lot in latin music, where every other backbeat is just behind the 4? Gives it a more driving, salsa feel?
 

GeoB

Gold Member
There has been a lot of stuff I've played that seemed to fit that sloppy, shoddy, money beat. I think I picked up on what Helm was doing early, more so than other rockers from the 60's. I just dug it. Ry Cooder too, had some really course grit drumming on some of his releases as well. I caught on to it and favored that stuff for quite a while.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
So you're talking about a way of moving a backbeat behind just a tad without moving the right hand (hi hat) back to go with it, yes?
Exactly. It kind of turns the hi hat hit, which is centered in the beat, into the grace note of the flam, which normally hits before the main note of the flam. Pretty cool effect. I can't believe I never really tried this seriously before. It's not hard. But I do have to think about it. Heck I haven't even played one full song with it yet.

Tony do use it on mostly all of your backbeats? Or are there some songs where you just line everything up?
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
If I understand you right, isn't this used a lot in latin music, where every other backbeat is just behind the 4? Gives it a more driving, salsa feel?
I know almost nothing about Latin music. Maybe someone else can answer. To me it sounds phat.
 

JBoom

Senior Member
It depends on the song and feel you're looking for, but I prefer putting the backbeat slightly ahead of the beat rather than behind. But that gives an upbeat feel. If you're looking to project happy, put it in front of the beat. Sad, just behind the beat. That's a genral rule that doesn't always apply. In any case, you should be able to do both, and know which one you're doing, which I assume you do.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Careful, Larry. This is getting awfully close to the stuff you said you didn't understand about playing slightly behind the beat! Seems that you're onto it! it does indeed change the "flavor" of your playing just slightly, and in my mind, tends to "funk up" a groove nicely.
 

Anon La Ply

Renegade
I often actively work to avoid flamming the backbeat. I'm really liking Steve Jordan these days.

I suspect that sometimes players flam the backbeat instinctively when going for a particular effect.
 

spleeeeen

Platinum Member
Speaking of laying back on the backbeat, I freakin' love this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdS3KagGihE

Anyway, what you're describing Larry is something I've done as an exercise but I think I usually lay the right hand (hi hat, ride, etc.) back with the snare, kind of thinking of it as the thing tying the kick (right on the beat) and snare (tiny bit behind) together.

But now I'm inspired to go into the shed to play around with this. I love thinking about (and paying attention to) the subtle ways we control the space in our playing and the huge impact those subtleties have on the way stuff sounds and feels. Those little nuances are extremely powerful.
 

drummer-russ

Gold Member
The guitarist in my band strongly prefers a drummer that really pushes the beat and plays a little ahead. So that is how I try to play. I think I can use this idea Larry to just practice playing behind the beat, something I never do right now. Thanks for bringing it up.
 

tcspears

Gold Member
When I first started playing the drums and gigging, I was largely self taught, and everyone kept telling me that I was playing behind the beat, and they thought it was cool.

I didn't realize at the time, but that's what I was doing for anything with a back-beat, I was lagging the snare hits slightly.

After going to school and understanding more about music and music theory, it does add more texture and tension to the groove and has a real bluesy, funky sort of effect.
 

8Mile

Platinum Member
I've always done it. I actually spent time recently unlearning that. I think I developed it early on because of my early exposure to rudimental drumming with lots of flams, plus learning afro-cuban rhythms where a kind of exaggerated flamming creates a certain feel that works well in the music.

Of late, I've focused on lining my backbeats up more. Not so much because I didn't like the feel of what I was doing, but because I couldn't do it any other way and I want something like that to be conscious choice, not just a limitation.
 

larryace

"Uncle Larry"
n any case, you should be able to do both, and know which one you're doing, which I assume you do.
I'm brand spanking new to it.

Careful, Larry. This is getting awfully close to the stuff you said you didn't understand about playing slightly behind the beat! Seems that you're onto it! it does indeed change the "flavor" of your playing just slightly, and in my mind, tends to "funk up" a groove nicely.
Glad you brought that up. Whenever we had that discussion I thought it was expressly stated that no flams were used. I took it as a way to play that did not use flams. That could be my bad but that was definitely the source of my confusion. If someone would have simply said, flam just the snare, I would have understood immediately. So once again I escape responsibility lolo

I often actively work to avoid flamming the backbeat. I'm really liking Steve Jordan these days.

I suspect that sometimes players flam the backbeat instinctively when going for a particular effect.
Up till today, not me. I'm going to try and put it into action at my next gig on Saturday

I love thinking about (and paying attention to) the subtle ways we control the space in our playing and the huge impact those subtleties have on the way stuff sounds and feels. Those little nuances are extremely powerful.
Yes. Complete control of the time is my opiate.

I've always done it.

Of late, I've focused on lining my backbeats up more.
I'm the reverse of you in that respect. (said like Spock) Fascinating.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
Glad you brought that up. Whenever we had that discussion I thought it was expressly stated that no flams were used. I took it as a way to play that did not use flams. That could be my bad but that was definitely the source of my confusion. If someone would have simply said, flam just the snare, I would have understood immediately. So once again I escape responsibility lolo
For me they are different things. When I'm flamming, I'm basically moveing both my sticks/limbs at once, and just bringing one up slightly higher than the other so when they come back down, it's "almost" at the same time.

When I'm consciously playing behind the beat, the mentality is more about delaying the snare note against the pulse. It was probably me who tried to get you away from equating it with a "flam" for one good reason that comes to mind. You're not always going to be playing another note along with a delayed snare hit. Sure if you're playing quarters on the hats or ride, then playing a slightly late snare note will appear sort of like a flam.

...But here's the thing, even if you're not playing any other note on the 2 and 4, you can still put the snare note a slight bit behind that 2 and 4. I think the best way to put it simply is that you're playing slightly behind the beat, NOT slightly behind another explicit note. The pulse is always there on the 2 and 4 even if you're not playing a ride voice. You can play ahead or behind that pulse without any other notes being played at all. In that case, the best you could equate it to is maybe "flamming" with a click note... Assuming there's a click going.
 
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