Anticipations, etc.

Otto

Platinum Member
I frequently hear a slight open to the HiHat(not necessarily open all the way...but just loosened) on the & of a bar preceding a largish shift in the song...or point where the songs hook imbeds.

This minimalism doesn't give the canned drums a chance to stick out or jar as they commonly do.

Very simple...very clean...but really...it would depend on the actual song...cant really make this kind of assessment without hearing it.

On the question about thinking like a drummer...I suggest that thinking uniquely will serve you better than like all other players of any specific instrument....keep your perspectives...and experiment!
 

No Way Jose

Silver Member
You might wait until the anticipated phrase is complete then follow with a effect type sound such as triangle, chimes, timbale, ride bell or loud closing hi hat sound.
 

dster

Junior Member
Can you guys recommend any good books? I wouldn't mind spending 80 hours reading about how to play drums in pop/rock/rb/country/jazz. Basically, I want to learn how to think like a drummer, just not in real time. :) I love to look at different drum beats, one of my bass books has a drum beat staff for every exercise. But I'm interested in transciptions of more sophisticated drum charts, e.g., Gadd's 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover, with as much expanation as possible. Also any books that expain when you put rudiments in and which rudiments to put in. And also, which drum techniques are used for each style?

@ julius, I don't think there are any anticipations in that tune, just a big cymbal crash on 1.
 

julius

Member
I seem to recall the chorus of Fleetwood Mac's "Dreams" (thunder only happens when it's raining...) is an example of what you are asking. Give that a listen and see if it inspires any ideas.
 

dster

Junior Member
How are the anticipations swung? ... If you are programming your drums imo you will want to make it basic and leave it. Unless you are playing extremely cleanly (which is not only uncommon but often wrong) playing hits with a drum machine will never be comfortable, and just won't have the feel you want. If you can push the beats around in ProTools, then all bets are off, but if you program the anticipations in the drum machine and don't hit them exactly it will always sound wrong. Better to avoid the conflict completely.

There are other questions that factor in, such as what is going to get heard? and will this fill throw bandmates/listeners? but those 3 are the most important
Thanks!

You lost me a little bit. I'm moving MIDI notes around in ProTools (Logic actually), playing with velocities, yada, yada. Plenty of my tunes swing, but most of these we are talking about today are more rock/singersongwriter style tunes. I do try and keep things simple. But you lost me with the "clean" bit and the "conflict".
 

John Lamb

Senior Member
With harder songs, that is often where I start. I'll just hit the snare on every syllable. Then I have to try and bring in the rest of the kit and drop out as many snare hits as I can. And I don't really know how to get to a beat from there. Things often seem too orchestral. Today's song would really sound best built around just the vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a snare. I feel like I should bring in some more of the kit. There is only one short section, but it has two longish pauses and maybe three anticipations. Truth is I never really imagined what the drum part would be. I think a snare sounds great. Then I want to bring in just enough of the kit so it sounds like a kit.
Do it from the other way around. Start with the basic beat and add notes until it works.

As everyone is saying, there are MANY ways to deal with anticipations. In my experience, the 3 most important factors are

1: tempo
2: should I keep it simple or should I set up the hits?
3: How are the anticipations swung? ... If you are programming your drums imo you will want to make it basic and leave it. Unless you are playing extremely cleanly (which is not only uncommon but often wrong) playing hits with a drum machine will never be comfortable, and just won't have the feel you want. If you can push the beats around in ProTools, then all bets are off, but if you program the anticipations in the drum machine and don't hit them exactly it will always sound wrong. Better to avoid the conflict completely.

There are other questions that factor in, such as what is going to get heard? and will this fill throw bandmates/listeners? but those 3 are the most important
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
You know drummers and I go way back. I loved listening to Erskine in Bass Desires. Saw him live multiple times with them actually. Love Brian Blade, Dejohnette. But that stuff is way too advanced. I would never try and program it. But then I listen to pop and a lot of the time it is just a kick and a snare. So I'm trying to understand the middle ground. Just trying to think like a drummer backing James Taylor or Paul Simon.

I should try and find some pop songs with anticipations, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
Right, don't listen to Jack Dejohnette to learn about pop drumming-- I'm not sure why you bring him up. But if you get out your James Taylor records, and listen to them, you can find out how the drummer orchestrates his parts generally, and then apply that to the particulars of whatever thing you're trying to program.
 

dster

Junior Member
Probably you need to listen more? It's all right there on the recordings. Or get out and see some people play live, and see what they do. Getting your information that way is better than just being told the answer.
You know drummers and I go way back. I loved listening to Erskine in Bass Desires. Saw him live multiple times with them actually. Love Brian Blade, Dejohnette. But that stuff is way too advanced. I would never try and program it. But then I listen to pop and a lot of the time it is just a kick and a snare. So I'm trying to understand the middle ground. Just trying to think like a drummer backing James Taylor or Paul Simon.

I should try and find some pop songs with anticipations, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.
 

caddywumpus

Platinum Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
...and then go into the intricate African rhythm section. Hopefully your drummer has 17 toms!
 

toddbishop

Platinum Member
Probably you need to listen more? It's all right there on the recordings. Or get out and see some people play live, and see what they do. Getting your information that way is better than just being told the answer.
 

dster

Junior Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
I'm sorry, what beats are those on? And what would the kick be doing? That's six things you listed.

Thanks
 

dster

Junior Member
You might try a drum track that follows the rhythm of the vocals, not a straight 1-2-3-4 rhythm. Record it, listen, see if you like it.
With harder songs, that is often where I start. I'll just hit the snare on every syllable. Then I have to try and bring in the rest of the kit and drop out as many snare hits as I can. And I don't really know how to get to a beat from there. Things often seem too orchestral. Today's song would really sound best built around just the vocal, an acoustic guitar, and a snare. I feel like I should bring in some more of the kit. There is only one short section, but it has two longish pauses and maybe three anticipations. Truth is I never really imagined what the drum part would be. I think a snare sounds great. Then I want to bring in just enough of the kit so it sounds like a kit.
 

Dr_Watso

Platinum Member
I think you should do a flam, rest, flam, rest, flam, rest. Then you should go into a syncopated part that's not so much what it is, but what it is all together.
 

No Way Jose

Silver Member
I turn on a sound recorder and record a few variations of the song. I listen to playback and decide what version I like best.

You might try a drum track that follows the rhythm of the vocals, not a straight 1-2-3-4 rhythm. Record it, listen, see if you like it.
 

Magenta

Platinum Member
Still not sure about what to do with the kick when I put in a drag. I just did a bunch of drags in a tune that was anticipation city. I usually put the kick in, but not always. Depended on whether an odd beat or even beat was being anticipated.
I wouldn't put the kick on the drag, meself. You don't want to squash it, the drag itself is the bit that catches your ear.
 

dster

Junior Member
In the first instance I'd suggest doing as little as possible. Less can be more, and the drums are there to complement and support the rest of the music, not overpower it. A crash on the & of 1 can sound pretty good though, and can help to gather things back into order.



^^^ Good idea!
Thanks. Sometimes I'll start with some MIDI groove from Toontrack and then start massaging it. Maybe the kick is &1, &3. And the snare is &2, &4. So each is getting hit four times a bar. Then I need to put in some anticipate. And I don't know what to do.
 

dster

Junior Member
So, this sounds to me like you are writing a song and have hit some problems programming your drums.

Why not post the snippets and see what people come up with?
You are exactly right. Except, I have a lot of songs that have the same issue. I write a lot of songs on acoustic guitar and for some reason there are a lot of upstrum anticipated chords. I'm addicted to them.
When I write songs using Finale, it doesn't happen nearly as much.

I may post some snippets. It's not easy because the work machine and the internet machine are not the same. And my third machine is on the fritz.

But I just wanted some general ideas.

Still not sure about what to do with the kick when I put in a drag. I just did a bunch of drags in a tune that was anticipation city. I usually put the kick in, but not always. Depended on whether an odd beat or even beat was being anticipated.
 
Top