20 Minutes to Speed and the 842 Double Lane

beatdat

Senior Member
I recently picked up a small book by Jeremy Wright called "20 Minutes to Speed". The goal of the book is to increase your speed of four of the basic rudiments: single stroke rolls, double stroke rolls, paradiddles and flams. The first thing you do is calculate your maximum speed (in bpm) for each of the rudiments; then, over the of each week, you play various "workouts" related to each of the rudiments at a fraction of your maximum speed (ie. 50%, 60% and up to 90%).

But, I'm having a problem with the double stroke roll portion of the book. I have been working on my double stroke rolls over the past year, and I'm up to about 180bpm (in 16th notes). Using the book's direction of taking 10bpm off your maximum speed, that's 170bpm. My problem is with one of the "workouts" for the double stroke roll called "842 Double Lane", which looks like this:

842 Double Lane.png

If you notice, this workout has you playing 8 on a hand for 2 beats, 4 on a hand for 2 beats and 2 on a hand for 2 beats. The thing is, given that my maximum speed for the double stroke roll is 170bpm, 50% of that is 85bpm, which requires me to play 8 on a hand for 2 beats at that speed. Fine, but 60% of that speed (ie. 102bpm) is almost impossible for me to play cleanly with good technique. So, if I can't play 8 on a hand for 2 beats at 60% of my max speed, how can I be expected to play them at 70%, 80% or 90% of my maximum speed? By this reasoning, if the fastest I can play 8 on a hand for 2 beats is ~90bpm, that means my maximum speed for me double stroke roll is 100bpm, which doesn't make sense to me insofar as my single stroke rolls, paradiddles and flams are all faster than that.

I'm not sure what's going on here: Is the workout notated incorrectly? Are the percentages wrong? Or are my double stroke rolls actually really slow (and slower than my single stroke roll, paradiddles and flams)?

Also, assuming my double stroke rolls were 200bpm, should I be able to play 8 on a hand at 180bpm (ie. 90%)? That seems faster than any speed record I've heard of.

I'm digging the book, the other sections (ie. singles stroke roll, paradiddles and flam workouts) are fine, but this one is really bothering me.

Any thoughts?
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
I think that looks like a fun exercise. I'm gonna go get the pad out and see what my max BPM is. I'll get back to you.

I regularly do all those individually, never thought to make an exercise out of it. I like to run 3s and 6s also.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
I think that looks like a fun exercise.
It is, and the book has a bunch of these "check patterns" for singles, doubles, paradiddles and flams. I'm just trying to figure out if there's something wrong with this pattern (ie. it's wholly unrealistic) or my playing. Even if I have to modify this one, the book is a steal for $1.99 (on the Apple store) - if it doesn't end up increasing my speed, it seems that it will at least smooth out some transition between different rudiments and patterns.

I'm gonna go get the pad out and see what my max BPM is. I'll get back to you.
I'm looking forward to it.

If you don't mind, would you post both your 1min maximum speed for the double stroke roll, as well as your max speed for 8 on a hand (ie. 2 beats of 16th notes)? Thanks.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Okay, I can play the exercise cleanly and comfortably at 100 BPM. At 105 it started to get loose. At 110 I was missing notes occasionally and really rushing the left hand. It was incredibly sloppy.

My max speed for the 8 on a hand was the same.

As for my doubles, after about 150 I start turning my hands over and use this exaggerated, almost pushing/rolling thing. It's still doubles, but I've always considered it cheating because it eventually turns into a press roll. The tips are still up, but I dunno. I can, however, push it to 240 until it becomes the press roll.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
Okay, I can play the exercise cleanly and comfortably at 100 BPM. At 105 it started to get loose. At 110 I was missing notes occasionally and really rushing the left hand. It was incredibly sloppy.
Seems like we're in similar boats.

I'm assuming that the "workout" is unrealistic in terms of its listed speeds. So what do you think could "fix" it but still help develop speed for the double stroke roll? Cutting the listed speeds in half? Swapping out the 8 on a hand and the 4 on a hand for alternating single strokes? Suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 

MrInsanePolack

Platinum Member
Seems like we're in similar boats.

I'm assuming that the "workout" is unrealistic in terms of its listed speeds. So what do you think could "fix" it but still help develop speed for the double stroke roll? Cutting the listed speeds in half? Swapping out the 8 on a hand and the 4 on a hand for alternating single strokes? Suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I've reread the instructions a few times and am going to readjust the math a bit. I think it might make more sense this way.

If your doubles max is 180, cut it in half to 90. Now subtract the 10 (80), this is your 50%. From 80, you would go 89 (60%), 97 (70%), 106 (80%), and 115 (90%). 115 is hauling ass to play that drill. If you reverse engineer the equation at this point, it puts your doubles at 230.*

I realize the doubles in the drill are not being played at 230. This number is just the conclusion of the equation as I understand it to be explained, and how I deconstructed it using your starting point of 180 BPM.

FWIW, 8 on a hand at 100 BPM is 800 strokes. At 115 it's 920. That's motoring right along. Pushing past that with singles requires some serious time and dedication. It's to the point where not being able to do it daily becomes a hindrance.

*To clarify, the 10% adjustment of 9 between speed changes was taken from the actual 50% speed of 90. It was then applied to the readjusted starting point of 80. Just wanted to be clear as to where I got the 9 from.
 
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beatdat

Senior Member
I've reread the instructions a few times and am going to readjust the math a bit. I think it might make more sense this way.

If your doubles max is 180, cut it in half to 90. Now subtract the 10 (80), this is your 50%. From 80, you would go 89 (60%), 97 (70%), 106 (80%), and 115 (90%). 115 is hauling ass to play that drill. If you reverse engineer the equation at this point, it puts your doubles at 230.*

I realize the doubles in the drill are not being played at 230. This number is just the conclusion of the equation as I understand it to be explained, and how I deconstructed it using your starting point of 180 BPM.

FWIW, 8 on a hand at 100 BPM is 800 strokes. At 115 it's 920. That's motoring right along. Pushing past that with singles requires some serious time and dedication. It's to the point where not being able to do it daily becomes a hindrance.

*To clarify, the 10% adjustment of 9 between speed changes was taken from the actual 50% speed of 90. It was then applied to the readjusted starting point of 80. Just wanted to be clear as to where I got the 9 from.
Thanks for the detailed response. I was thinking of something similar to your equation, but I like yours better - it keeps the pace up better than what I had in mind (which was simply cutting the percentages in half). I'll give it a shot for a while and post my results.
 

brentcn

Platinum Member
I recently picked up a small book by Jeremy Wright called "20 Minutes to Speed". The goal of the book is to increase your speed of four of the basic rudiments: single stroke rolls, double stroke rolls, paradiddles and flams. The first thing you do is calculate your maximum speed (in bpm) for each of the rudiments; then, over the of each week, you play various "workouts" related to each of the rudiments at a fraction of your maximum speed (ie. 50%, 60% and up to 90%).

But, I'm having a problem with the double stroke roll portion of the book. I have been working on my double stroke rolls over the past year, and I'm up to about 180bpm (in 16th notes). Using the book's direction of taking 10bpm off your maximum speed, that's 170bpm. My problem is with one of the "workouts" for the double stroke roll called "842 Double Lane", which looks like this:

View attachment 87458

If you notice, this workout has you playing 8 on a hand for 2 beats, 4 on a hand for 2 beats and 2 on a hand for 2 beats. The thing is, given that my maximum speed for the double stroke roll is 170bpm, 50% of that is 85bpm, which requires me to play 8 on a hand for 2 beats at that speed. Fine, but 60% of that speed (ie. 102bpm) is almost impossible for me to play cleanly with good technique. So, if I can't play 8 on a hand for 2 beats at 60% of my max speed, how can I be expected to play them at 70%, 80% or 90% of my maximum speed? By this reasoning, if the fastest I can play 8 on a hand for 2 beats is ~90bpm, that means my maximum speed for me double stroke roll is 100bpm, which doesn't make sense to me insofar as my single stroke rolls, paradiddles and flams are all faster than that.

I'm not sure what's going on here: Is the workout notated incorrectly? Are the percentages wrong? Or are my double stroke rolls actually really slow (and slower than my single stroke roll, paradiddles and flams)?

Also, assuming my double stroke rolls were 200bpm, should I be able to play 8 on a hand at 180bpm (ie. 90%)? That seems faster than any speed record I've heard of.

I'm digging the book, the other sections (ie. singles stroke roll, paradiddles and flam workouts) are fine, but this one is really bothering me.

Any thoughts?
Instead of using your max speed of double strokes, you should most likely use your max speed of the listed exercise as a whole, which, realistically, will pretty much be the same as the speed of your 8s on a hand.

The important idea here, is to use 2 minute runs to train your technique and endurance, which will ultimately build speed.

FWIW, 8 on a hand at 100 BPM is 800 strokes. At 115 it's 920. That's motoring right along. Pushing past that with singles requires some serious time and dedication. It's to the point where not being able to do it daily becomes a hindrance.
This is athletic stuff. At some point, yes, working out daily becomes necessary if you want to see continued improvement. You may even get to the point where hydration, diet, quality of sleep, and overall physical condition play a role in your performance.
 

beatdat

Senior Member
Instead of using your max speed of double strokes, you should most likely use your max speed of the listed exercise as a whole, which, realistically, will pretty much be the same as the speed of your 8s on a hand.
Great take! I'll definitely try that, too!
 

TMe

Senior Member
FYI: If you're using a metronome with conventional settings, you can get a reasonable approximation of your percentages by memorizing how many clicks you need to drop the tempo. Here's an example using 176 bpm as the target. For 50%, drop 16 clicks. This is how I approach things. I drop two clicks, then another two, and if I want to go slower I adjust four clicks at a time.

For 3/4 time stuff down near 60 bpm, I cut the number of clicks in half and work within a narrower range. Otherwise the slowest speeds would be glacial. Anything below 60 bpm is a death march, and who wants to spend time there?

Capture.PNG
 
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TMe

Senior Member
...this workout has you playing 8 on a hand for 2 beats... ...almost impossible for me to play cleanly with good technique.
I gotta say, FWIW, I played 8-on-a-hand and similar exercises for years without ever breaking through a plateau. Recently I spent about six months wood shedding the conventional rudiments. Then I went back to 8-on-a-hand and, lo and behold, my speed had increased more than I would have imagined possible.

I've long been skeptical about the value of working through the standard rudiments, and now I regret that skepticism. Spending time on the rudiments has been a lot more productive than time I spent playing 8-on-a-hand or Stick Control exercises.

I suspect it would make more sense to get the rudiments wrapped up first, and then try 8-on-a-hand and Stick Control type stuff later. I got things backwards.
 

Push pull stroke

Platinum Member
I gotta say, FWIW, I played 8-on-a-hand and similar exercises for years without ever breaking through a plateau. Recently I spent about six months wood shedding the conventional rudiments. Then I went back to 8-on-a-hand and, lo and behold, my speed had increased more than I would have imagined possible.

I've long been skeptical about the value of working through the standard rudiments, and now I regret that skepticism. Spending time on the rudiments has been a lot more productive than time I spent playing 8-on-a-hand or Stick Control exercises.

I suspect it would make more sense to get the rudiments wrapped up first, and then try 8-on-a-hand and Stick Control type stuff later. I got things backwards.
I think they all have value, and should all be worked on. I think the failure most players have is that they don’t do super-slow practice. That has done way more for me than any other general practice advice.
 
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