The birth of heavy metal

Yopps said:
Guess you missed out on the 80s when every song subject was about girls, cars and partying out.

Sure plenty of bands have wrote songs on satanic subjects/ occult but Sabbath was not the first to do it so why associate then as influence to every band that writes about satanism/occult? I'd say Black Sabbaths music has stronger ties to grunge music and some of the darker, underground heavy bands like Celtic Frost, Candlemass, St Vitus ect, but those are largly unknown bands compared to the big boys like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead, Metallica, ect who all claim influnce from DP

Listen to the first Sabbath albums they are very much rooted in blues and jazz, it was heavy, but it wasn't "metal" sounding the way "heavy metal" would be known for....

Simple fact is that the image, sound and general preception of heavy metal in the traditional sense is closer to what deep purple pioneered,

And lol I was a Purple fan before I was a drummer so it's not because I love Paice....
Click to expand...


It's funny that you bring up these bands

direct quote from Rob Halford..."Sabbath were without a doubt the very first Heavy Metal band to EVER come into existence."

Direct Quote from Bruce Dickinson..."Listening to Black Sabbath...They're like the anchor for Heavy Metal."

Did Metallica ever record a Cover a Deep Purple song? Nope but they covered and recorded two Sabbath songs...lol
(though i have heard them play Black Night and Burn Live)

So did....

Magadeth
White Zombie
Biohazard
Sepultura
C.O.C
Type O Negative
Pantera

list goes on and on....

I like Purple...but did they even come close to the impact Sabbath had on the Music world? Nope not even close

ask any kid on the street if they have ever heard Space Trucking or Woamn from Tokyo....then ask them if they have ever head Iron Man or Paranoid...lol

music critics agree that the three most influential artists to change the face of popular music

Elvis
The Beatles
Black Sabbath

MTV voted them the "Greatest Metal Band of all Time"

Rolling Stone Magazine called them "The Heavy Metal Kings"

can you tell I'm a fan?

lol
 
Snakeman1066 said:
Did Metallica ever record a Cover a Deep Purple song? Nope but they covered and recorded two Sabbath songs...lol
Click to expand...
No thankfully Metallica never butchered a Deep Purple. Metallica covering a band's song is in no way an indication of a band's worth or importance.

Snakeman1066 said:
I like Purple...but did they even come close to the impact Sabbath had on the Music world? Nope not even close
Click to expand...
This is subjective. I agree Sabbath is likely the godfather of metal, but as far as an impact on music overall bigger but Purple "not even close"? If you are talking metal, then maybe...but overall, well that is a matter of opinion. Purple isn't "heavy metal" and never claimed to be.
Snakeman1066 said:
ask any kid on the street if they have ever heard Space Trucking or Woamn from Tokyo....then ask them if they have ever head Iron Man or Paranoid...lol
Click to expand...
Ask any kid on the street either of these questions and I doubt they would know either one. You could ask them who Lady Gaga is and they would know so I would not use this thinking as ammunition.

Snakeman1066 said:
music critics agree that the three most influential artists to change the face of popular music

Elvis
The Beatles
Black Sabbath

MTV voted them the "Greatest Metal Band of all Time"

Rolling Stone Magazine called them "The Heavy Metal Kings"

can you tell I'm a fan?

lol
Click to expand...

What music critics are you referencing? I think most people would say music "critics" are not necessarily the barometer for what is "good' (again a subjective term). Rolling Stone especially tends to lean to what is trendy. MTV is as relevant to music now days as a bicycle to a fish.

I am in no way doubting Sabs impact on music. They are one of my faves and I agree have influenced a generation (or two) of musicians as well as influenced genres of music.

BTW...Purple headlined the California Jam in 1974. Sabbath went on before them.
 
Last edited:
Masheanhed said:
This is a subjective. I agree Sabbath is likely the godfather of metal, but as far as an impact on music overall bigger but Purple "not even close"? If you are talking metal, then maybe...but overall, well that is a matter of opinion. Purple isn't "heavy metal" and never claimed to be.
Click to expand...

For me Deep Purple's not a heavy metal band, it's more a"hard rock" band... Now etiquette on music styles as always made me somewhat confused, when I bought "Machine Head" back in the 70', it was under the "rock" section in the record shop.

Furthermore, Ian Paice jazzy background and Jon Lord classical influences had an important role in Purple's music, and it certainly not sounding very heavy...

Having said that, I think that Sabbath's album "Sabbath Bloody Sabbath" is the "lightest" record they ever produced, and strangely enough, it's my farourite Sabbath Album.
 
I've been watching the Sam Dunn special on VH1 classic Metal the Evolution. I liked part one and picked up a few interesting facts that I didn't know, notably that Ike Turner dropped his amp from the car roof and that's how Sam Phillips got that sound for Rocket 88. I liked the scene with Yingwie Malmsteet where he says Less is not More, less is Less how could less be more . . . too funny. The Second episode was a bit tedious, Maybe because I lived through it and I knew what he was going to say next.

But there are certain moments where he just makes a bit of a fool out of himself, like when he goes to Marshall's headquaters to see the amp taht goes up to 11, not getting the joke. I saw him on that Metal show and he said that Yingwie had seen Paganinni on tv and that influenced heavy metal, Dude, like he's been dead for almost two hundred years. Oh, they didn't have television in the 1820s. I didn't know that.

anybody watching this? I know you are Ian.
 
Mad About Drums said:
For me Deep Purple's not a heavy metal band, it's more a"hard rock" band... Now etiquette on music styles as always made me somewhat confused, when I bought "Machine Head" back in the 70', it was under the "rock" section in the record shop.
Click to expand...

For me it was different. At the time of Machine Head everyone described Purple and Sabs as heavy metal. The Sabs were heavier but, really, no one else at the time was heavier that Purple, and they were renowned for massive volume.
 
Whats the actual purpose of this thread to access Blame? Let me know I'd be interested to know who did it! Doc
 
Doctor Dirt said:
Whats the actual purpose of this thread to access Blame? Let me know I'd be interested to know who did it! Doc
Click to expand...

Ha! I don't listen to modern metal but I was pretty keen on the old heavy stuff in the early days - I was speculating about the below bands and every seems to feel Sabbath should take responsibility :)

The Kinks? (1964) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2GmzyeeXnQ

Cream? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_PsdnbgdjM

Jimi? (1967) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HObqZh_RTds

Blue Cheer? (1968) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU5uDozoSSM

Sabbath? (1970) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akt3awj_Ah8
 
No discussion about Heavy Metal would be complete without mentioning Judas Priest.

I think what made "metal" a genre is the use of the extreme tritone dissonance you get when you take a standard blues scale and add the tritone and a dominant 7th to it. This is what Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Metallica, Slayer, etc. did to rock and they made it more evil sounding. In the past, churches even banned the use of it the tritone in hymns because the interval had a tense and evil feel to it. The tritone was also referred to as "the Devil in music".
 
Pollyanna said:
For me it was different. At the time of Machine Head everyone described Purple and Sabs as heavy metal. The Sabs were heavier but, really, no one else at the time was heavier that Purple, and they were renowned for massive volume.
Click to expand...

I read in the Guiness book of records that the loudest band on stage were The Who (I don't know if it's still of acuality, though) No wonder why Pete Townshend is almost deaf....
 
Mad About Drums said:
I read in the Guiness book of records that the loudest band on stage were The Who (I don't know if it's still of acuality, though) No wonder why Pete Townshend is almost deaf....
Click to expand...
If you stood in front of that drummer for all those years you would be deaf too. :)
 
Loudest and sloppiest at the same time hahahaha!!! The bass player in that group should get a medal for holding it together.
Polly you can't add Hendrix in a Metal pole??? Hendrix??? If you take away his personal sound production you have a mix of guitarists Albert King, Guitar Shorty (saw him 3weeks ago) D. Isley and Curtis Knights sax!!!! The chords are 9th and plenty of major to minor and all the blues riffs, come on!!!!!!! I think I'm cryin' ........thanks Polly!!! Doc
 
Deltadrummer said:
I've been watching the Sam Dunn special on VH1 classic Metal the Evolution. I liked part one and picked up a few interesting facts that I didn't know, notably that Ike Turner dropped his amp from the car roof and that's how Sam Phillips got that sound for Rocket 88. I liked the scene with Yingwie Malmsteet where he says Less is not More, less is Less how could less be more . . . too funny. The Second episode was a bit tedious, Maybe because I lived through it and I knew what he was going to say next.

But there are certain moments where he just makes a bit of a fool out of himself, like when he goes to Marshall's headquaters to see the amp taht goes up to 11, not getting the joke. I saw him on that Metal show and he said that Yingwie had seen Paganinni on tv and that influenced heavy metal, Dude, like he's been dead for almost two hundred years. Oh, they didn't have television in the 1820s. I didn't know that.

anybody watching this? I know you are Ian.
Click to expand...

I saw the first episode. I haven't seen the 2nd.
 
Mad About Drums said:
I read in the Guiness book of records that the loudest band on stage were The Who (I don't know if it's still of acuality, though) No wonder why Pete Townshend is almost deaf....
Click to expand...

The Who had the record, then Deep Purple broke it, then Guiness decided to not keep records of loudness for fear of encouraging bands to do something dangerous.


However, we all know the loudest band in the universe is Disaster Area.
 
Midnite Zephyr said:
I think what made "metal" a genre is the use of the extreme tritone dissonance you get when you take a standard blues scale and add the tritone and a dominant 7th to it. This is what Black Sabbath, Judas Priest, Metallica, Slayer, etc. did to rock and they made it more evil sounding. In the past, churches even banned the use of it the tritone in hymns because the interval had a tense and evil feel to it. The tritone was also referred to as "the Devil in music".
Click to expand...

A blues scale already has a tritone and a flat seventh in it. 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7.
A flat second would be the most metal addition I can think of to a blues scale. After that full chromaticism is really the only place left to go.
 
PQleyR said:
A blues scale already has a tritone and a flat seventh in it. 1, b3, 4, b5, 5, b7.
A flat second would be the most metal addition I can think of to a blues scale. After that full chromaticism is really the only place left to go.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong here but I think the basic pentatonic minor scale doesn't have the flat second added to it. It's still practically the same blues scale. I use that scale a lot and the tritones are great for pull-offs, hammer-ons and bends. A lot of Heavy Metal riffs are built around those added tritones. Electric Funeral is a great example of this.
 
Doctor Dirt said:
Polly you can't add Hendrix in a Metal pole??? Hendrix??? If you take away his personal sound production you have a mix of guitarists Albert King, Guitar Shorty (saw him 3weeks ago) D. Isley and Curtis Knights sax!!!! The chords are 9th and plenty of major to minor and all the blues riffs, come on!!!!!!! I think I'm cryin' ........thanks Polly!!! Doc
Click to expand...

Sure, in a way it seems incongruous but Jimi's sound was one of the heaviest around at the time. While he had all that blues and soul influence he was also one of the pioneering explorers of psychedelia, which was influential in the birth of metal.

Also, bear in mind that Sabs had strong blues roots (Ozzie even played blues harp on their first album). From a Tony Iommi interview:
KNAC: What about the one-off supergroup Dirty Mac, featuring John Lennon, Keith Richards, Clapton, Yoko Ono and Hendrix drummer Mitch Mitchell?

IOMMI: It was pretty much thrown together. We went through the rehearsals for that as well. But the whole thing, from day one, was a bit of a shambles really. They started with this press reception at the hotel and the Stones were playing at it and then they started arguing at their own reception. While they were playing, they stopped and started arguing. So, it was a bit of an up and down thing altogether, but it good. It was good to do. It certainly opened my eyes.

KNAC.COM: So once you re-joined Sabbath, how did you guys come up with the classic Sabbath sound?

IOMMI: We found in a lot of blues clubs that everybody's talking away so they're drowning you out. So we'd just turn up. We basically turned it up louder and louder and came up with this sort've Sabbath thing. It just sort of happened. I mean, it's one of those things were you think it must've been something planned, but it wasn't...really, it just came about. It was just one of those things that we liked. It was a nice feeling to turn it up and start coming up with these demonic sort've ideas.
​
Funny thing ... they cranked up because people weren't paying attention. The more things change the more things stay the same ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top