The Grand Master Buddy Rich

GetAgrippa said:
Of course someone can emulate Buddy Rich-as posted here on DW. http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Eric_Fischer.html. Pretty dang impressive of Eric.
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Impressive indeed!

However, this is a careful note-by-note transcription, study, and remake of a selected solo. Anyone with the notation know-how and chops could pull this off.

Put this guy in Buddy's Big Bang, have him drive the songs and improvise several solos on the spot. I don't think anyone with their eyes closed would think it was really Buddy.

Not digging this wonderful accomplishment in any way, as it is very impressive. I'm just saying that to emulate Buddy, you have to be able to do several of these on the spot and drive the band in the way he did. I've yet to see that happen.
 
mikel said:
Chick Webb was way ahead of his time, probably more so than Buddy was during his era. And he was a nice, modest and encouraging guy.
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Well... here's Art Blakey's account of his lessons with Webb:

He came in wearing a camel-hair coat and a cap, and brought Ella Fitzgerald and a chihuahua with him. He said, 'Make a roll, kid,' and I started rolling—what I thought was a roll. He walked to the door with Ella, pushed her out, turned around, looked at me, went 'Sheeeeeeeeeet,' slammed the door and walked away.

Another time I went to see him, and I thought I'd hang out with him all night. Instead, he put me upstairs with a metronome, made that damn thing go at the slowest tempo you ever heard, and said, 'Roll to a hundred, and if you stop, I'll come upstairs and break your skull.'
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(h/t Chip Stern)
 
Texan said:
Evidently, many of those who do not believe BR is the greatest drummer of all time don't have the proper perspective. Most of those who have commented above who don't believe BR is the greatest have only seen YouTube videos of him in his 70s when he was just a shadow of himself compared to his prime. I suggest that these people get the album "Swingin' New Big Band" that was recorded live when Rich was 50 years old and still in his prime. Those who commented that he didn't have foot work like the chops masters of today need only listen to "West Side Story Medley" where they will hear polyrhythms and time signature changes. Also, there is a YouTube recording made in the 40s in which Rich comes out on stage where there were only two bass drums set up. He proceeds to play double bass patterns to show that the whole Louis Bellson double bass drum thing was no big deal.

BR had an idetic memory and when his new big band was rehearsing, a drummer was brought in to play the songs using the charts on the initial play through, after which Rich would have the whole song down.

Buddy Rich could play 600 strokes continuously with his left hand--cleanly.

The speed drummers of today playing very fast compared to how Rich played in the context of a song or a solo is like comparing the kids who can do all kinds of dazzling dunks to Michael Jordan dunking against a couple of 6'11" NBA players during an NBA game.

Anyone who knows anything about jazz knows that it is significantly more complex than rock--even progressive rock (example Take Five by Dave Brubeck Quartet). Rich could play anything in front of him of any genre.

There are those who maintain that John Bonham is the greatest rock drummer. Guess who John Bonham thought was the greatest drummer and was a huge influence--Buddy Rich.

How many drummers have fronted his own band for decades?

I could go on, but I rest my case.
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Wow....yeah....600 you say....wow. All of this is just....wow.

"anyone who knows anything about jazz knows that it is significantly more complex than rock--even progressive rock"....wow, dummy me. May as well stop listening to both jazz and prog for all the good it's done me over the years. Apparently I've learned much less than I thought over the decades.

Whelp - you've convinced me.
 
Whoa, let's back up for a second. I thought I just read that Jeff Indyke is not the greatest drummer ever...? ...this cannot be correct...
 
Extremely easy question to hear, difficult to answer to

I was gonna chime in but answers I got through reading this thread got me nodding. That's all
 
600 strokes per minute?? Isn't the record something like 1,200 strokes per minute by Mike Mangini and Tom Grosset? Anyways I am a huge Buddy Rich fan-I vividly remember him on Johnny Carson-another drummer, and he was always entertaining on the kit and off in conversation-the drum battles were fun too. He was also into martial arts and so was I at the time. He definitely has the name recognition and has inspired generations of drummers. Even with Buddy's huge ego I'm sure he hopes others will continue and surpass his efforts though-as he carried the torch so long as a great emissary for drumming. So yeah Buddy's the greatest but that's like I wink and tell each of my daughters each is my favorite. Which they are.
 
The 600 strokes per minute continuously were with his left hand only, not both hands. He had a single stroke roll that was faster than 1200 strokes per minute rate. I just refer you to West Side Story on Swingin New Big Band where you will hear an incredible single stroke short burst as a fill that also changes dynamics during that fill. You simply have to hear it.
 
PorkPieGuy said:
With art, you can't win.

There is no "greatest drummer of all time."

I have my favorites, just like you have yours.
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I disagree for a couple of reasons.

Reason 1: Not all art can be equally measured for talent. Some art is purely an expression, requiring no actual technical ability (Yoko Ono "performance").
There can be no "best" expression, but there can be better/worse technical performances.

Painting and drumming are both art, but beyond a certain level, drumming requires tremendous physical ability similar to sports, and the mental training to do several things at once (and that's an understatement).

Reason 2: Just because we can't all agree on who the "best" is, doesn't mean that there is no best. We'll never know who the best is, that's true, but it's not because there is no best. It's because our opinions and tastes, among other factors, won't allow for a consensus.

Consider this: who is the better drummer, Jojo or me? (Obvious answer)
And if one can be better, then one can be the best.

Edit: Important to note that comparing drummers of different musical styles and genres can be futile. It's simply apples and oranges in many cases. What they're playing can be so different from one another that you might as well be comparing a guitarist to a bassist.
 
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bud7h4 said:
I disagree for a couple of reasons.

Reason 1: Not all art can be equally measured for talent. Some art is purely an expression, requiring no actual technical ability (Yoko Ono "performance").
There can be no "best" expression, but there can be better/worse technical performances.

Painting and drumming are both art, but beyond a certain level, drumming requires tremendous physical ability similar to sports, and the mental training to do several things at once (and that's an understatement).

Reason 2: Just because we can't all agree on who the "best" is, doesn't mean that there is no best. We'll never know who the best is, that's true, but it's not because there is no best. It's because our opinions and tastes, among other factors, won't allow for a consensus.

Consider this: who is the better drummer, Jojo or me? (Obvious answer)
And if one can be better, then one can be the best.

Edit: Important to note that comparing drummers of different musical styles and genres can be futile. It's simply apples and oranges in many cases. What they're playing can be so different from one another that you might as well be comparing a guitarist to a bassist.
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I think from my point of view, I'm perfectly comfortable with the idea that music isn't competitive. For example, maybe by a lot of people's standards Jojo may be a "better" drummer than you; however, you may play in such a way that I would much rather listen to you than Jojo. Maybe I like your style better, the way you construct fills, the way your stick comes off the snare. See, I don't care for jazz (you can take the boy out of the country...), and I don't really like drum solos either (maybe there are a couple of exceptions, but I don't know). I don't care for speed or weird time signatures. I like solid groove. Please keep in mind that I really do lack a lot of refinement.

If you want to consider him "the best," then awesome. If a lot of pros consider him "the best," then even better. Do I? Nope. Because I simply don't think that way. If a lot of people believe "a thing," this doesn't mean I have to...even if these people are influential in my life.
It's hard to measure "best" with anything relatively artistic. Speed and timing could be measured; however, it's difficult (if not impossible) to measure other things that have to do with music (well, in my opinion anyways).

I'm really glad that you are passionate about Buddy Rich, and I'm glad you enjoy listening to him. I really appreciate your input as well! You've given me a lot to think about.
 
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GetAgrippa said:
Of course someone can emulate Buddy Rich-as posted here on DW. http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Eric_Fischer.html. Pretty dang impressive of Eric.
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I watched the side-by-side comparison vid of Trombone Man and while he's 100% skilled and phenomenally impressive, Eric lacks the showmanship Buddy did. Eric looked bored to be honest while Buddy was "putting on the show" for those watching.

That to me is the difference between what Buddy did & how everyone else does it.
 
Well it's like watching Jeff Porcaro demonstrate his Roseanna shuffle-in the video he first does a Bonham and Purdie shuffle to demonstrate his developing his shuffle. Course he's got the mechanics of both-but it doesn't really sound like either. I often note those who sight read while they play-technically sound great but visually often seem lack luster. So I get where you are coming from. Tex listened to plenty of Buddy (I'm 62) and West Side Story-we did it in an orchestra I use to play so I listened to numerous versions by many including Buddy. Course the orchestra I was in didn't think the drum kit was front and center so it was always hold back. Like I said Buddy was a huge influence on me and I think he's a great drummer but "greatest" isn't terms I generally think. I was a scientist and I've never pondered who is the greatest scientist-it'd be what discipline, what question, what era, etc. Plenty of greats but "greatest" seems too subjective. It's difficult too cause drummers like Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, and others muddy the waters with great drumming. I'm a huge Tony Williams fan too-and not giving him a nod just seems wrong-then too he died relatively young while he was still an evolving drummer expanding drum horizons. But in general terms neither Tony or Elvin really had the name recognition and general popularity as Buddy so I see how people generally weigh the question-but if you start asking drummers then plenty of great drummers state Tony was the most phenomenal drummer they'd ever seen live. It would be interesting to do a scientific poll with categories of pointed questions to objectively measure "greatness" as defined by questionnaire. I bet the general population might say Buddy Rich, but asking musicians or drummers you will definitely run into differences I wager.
 
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I think the phrase "one of the greats" would be more appropriate in music.

In sports it's easy to say if someone is the greatest.

"He always came 1st in his races, he was the greatest". Bolt.

"He's the greatest swimmer that ever lived, he won more gold medals than anyone that ever lived." Phelps.

"He's the greatest racing driver, the only person to win 7 world championships." Schumacher.

All the above named the greatest are valid titles because they're based on unbeaten records.

How does one quantify that in music? You could argue that Hal Blaine is the greatest drummer that ever lived because his unbeaten record is actually the amount of records he played on. But it's not the same type of comparison as in sports.

With drumming or any instrument, does one translate "greatest" by technical ability, musicality, versatility? Buddy had great technical ability and of course swung really well. Was he versatile? As I think had been mentioned, he's an amazing big band drummer. But that's the only style of music he played, or that I know of.

Take someone like Jeff Porcaro who's revered by almost every drummer because of his feel and tastefully conceived and well placed fills. Because he's not flying around the kit like Buddy, does this mean he's not as great? Nope. He's playing in a way Buddy simply couldn't. Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, incredibly versatile, musical and tons of chops. Not being flashy for the sake of it, but really saying something.
 
Merlin5 said:
I think the phrase "one of the greats" would be more appropriate in music.

In sports it's easy to say if someone is the greatest.

"He always came 1st in his races, he was the greatest". Bolt.

"He's the greatest swimmer that ever lived, he won more gold medals than anyone that ever lived." Phelps.

"He's the greatest racing driver, the only person to win 7 world championships." Schumacher.

All the above named the greatest are valid titles because they're based on unbeaten records.

How does one quantify that in music? You could argue that Hal Blaine is the greatest drummer that ever lived because his unbeaten record is actually the amount of records he played on. But it's not the same type of comparison as in sports.

With drumming or any instrument, does one translate "greatest" by technical ability, musicality, versatility? Buddy had great technical ability and of course swung really well. Was he versatile? As I think had been mentioned, he's an amazing big band drummer. But that's the only style of music he played, or that I know of.

Take someone like Jeff Porcaro who's revered by almost every drummer because of his feel and tastefully conceived and well placed fills. Because he's not flying around the kit like Buddy, does this mean he's not as great? Nope. He's playing in a way Buddy simply couldn't. Steve Gadd, Vinnie Colaiuta, incredibly versatile, musical and tons of chops. Not being flashy for the sake of it, but really saying something.
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Agee. In reference to music, toss out the rulebook and put away that measuring tape.

I find maestro to be a good word to describe that nebulous, immortal stamp that some musicians put on their music. Maestro- Thats good enough. To describe Buddy, Mike Mangini, Jim Keltner, Gadd, Marco Minnieman, Tony Williams... yadada

For every apple called Buddy, there's an orange called Ringo.... or a strawberry called Gadd, a watermelon called Elvin n so on..

Kick back and enjoy what they had to say, not how they said it..


...
 
I think Buddy was a good showman and had very fast hands which lead to much of his fame at the time. His big mouth had a lot to do with his fame in the later years, but I digress. He was a very influential drummer, likely the most influential drummer of all time, but this doesn't make him "the best" in my book.

He's well known to John Q. Public (thanks to his many talk show appearances - as a guest and not part of the musical act) and I think this is why his status as "best of all time" is always brought up, because he is a good drummer and is popular. People who actually know drumming and know that there are other great drummers out there will know that Buddy was a one trick pony. Yes he was very good at what he did, but he was very limited to his specific style.
 
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Traditional Grip said:
Much much better. If Buddy was session drummer in the 80's the radio would be a blast to listen to.
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I have never heard Buddy do an interesting rock performance.

Maybe he didn't want to?

I do not think he would have come up with the composition we hear in Tom Sawyer....which is a large part of the brilliance of Peart's Performance...and I doubt what he would have composed would be interesting beyond a technical standpoint.
 
I suspect that those who think BR was a one trick pony have never heard his brush work or his small combo recordings. I guess as the OP said that everyone from Peart to Weckl, plus others like John Bonham saying Buddy Rich is the greatest of all time just isn't good enough for some on this thread.
 
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