Bad recording experience
- Thread starter rmac86
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- rmac86 bad recording
If that is indeed the case, you're absolutely right.
It becomes a case of the OP needing to understand that the producer drives the recording, and that the performers need to make accommodations. Alternatively, the drummer needs to find/hire a producer with a sympathetic ear to drive the engineer.
The single most important thing a musician should concern themselves with in a studio is the performance, and not mics and heads.
T
The SunDog
Guest
This was my point about needing to understand how a recording is made. When you rent time in a studio, you are the producer. You have to be the one who says stop, that's no good, do it over. You're the one who needs to be fully prepared when you go in. Otherwise you run over time, which is over budget and are then forced to accept less than the intended result. Jeez Louise! Tell a drummer he should learn how to place a mic and take a gain signal and they act like you're asking for blood. Learn how to run sound!
60's Drummer
Senior Member
+1
life goes on ... live and learn ... lotsa great advice already given
Wow, i've witnessed over 50 years of studio evolution, and i must say, my, how things have changed and how they've stayed the same.
I have been on both sides, performer, FOH soundman, studio -tracker, -mixer, -masterer, -producer. *** Always thought the FOH soundman on live gigs, big or small, should travel w/ the band as a member ***.
Back to topic, rmac86, perhaps now you can appreciate why every time I listen to any recording, I segregate.
If what is played *on*, the drums themselves for example, sound great, i say great audio engineers. If what is *played* sounds great, i say great musicians.
Every studio should provide a "how to prepare for the session - what we expect from you" and a "what to expect from us" handout.
Dr_Watso
Platinum Member
Obviously you're bringing up some very valid points, and that's a great chart. I completely agree with your assessments, and definitely think engineers in general should be more patient, knowledgeable and accommodating... But reality for me here in the states is that usually they are guys who "kinda" work for the venue and get paid in peanuts to run sound for 3-4 bands in an evening. For studio engineers it's usually more about time. Trying things outside the tried and true takes time and troubleshooting and that's just for one element of one instrument in the recording...
Regardless if it should be the case or not, my life is easier and my music sounds better if I kiss the sound guy's but all night and do things his way.
In-studio my rule is that I can challenge an idea once, but I cannot argue with the guy we're paying to make us sound good. If he's not going to be able to get a good sound with my tuning or without dampening, or whatever, then it doesn't matter that someone else maybe could. I'd rather just tune it how they like and see how it sounds in the booth on playback after some EQ. If it sounds bad in the control room, it's pretty obvious and easy to make an argument that we haven't arrived at the best sound yet.
Regardless if it should be the case or not, my life is easier and my music sounds better if I kiss the sound guy's but all night and do things his way.
In-studio my rule is that I can challenge an idea once, but I cannot argue with the guy we're paying to make us sound good. If he's not going to be able to get a good sound with my tuning or without dampening, or whatever, then it doesn't matter that someone else maybe could. I'd rather just tune it how they like and see how it sounds in the booth on playback after some EQ. If it sounds bad in the control room, it's pretty obvious and easy to make an argument that we haven't arrived at the best sound yet.
Why should a drummer learn "How to run sound"? It would be like telling a sound engineer to learn how to play the drums before they work in a studio. Bands, when they need a demo, go to a studio to get there sound down on a recording. The engineer is there to help them get the sound they want, thats what an engineer is supposed to be able to do.
I agree here, and would add that it's a two way street. If the OP's a band that wants a Glyn Johns, Muscle Shoals, Motown, or other distinct sound, the engineer should be told about this a while in advance. There should be no/minimal surprises on the unload and setup.
We should be familiar with the basics of each and every facet of our instruments. You don't have to be good at it, just enough to be able to communicate and sympathize with other professionals. Exaggerated examples:
Why should I learn to strike/carry/load my drums? It's the roadie's job.
Why should I learn to set up and tune my drums? It's the tech's job.
Why should I learn to compose drum parts, it's the writer's job.
We can argue about where the line falls, but the point is that there's a line somewhere.
T
The SunDog
Guest
You think producers and engineers aren't musicians? So in a black and white scenario, you believe musicians shouldn't be engineers and producers. Typical C type personality. Do you need someone to tell you where you're going and a kick in the ass to get you moving in that direction? I'm just trying to tell people how to be the most effective they can when they get into a studio. You don't have to take over the control room, but knowing what you want and how to achieve it makes a huge difference. When I went into my first recording session I was an absolute sponge. It was with an engineer that had two SAMMY awards for producer of the year. He has since gone on to work as an engineer and producer on over sixty major label albums. He is also a bad ass guitarist and pretty decent drummer (he actually has a drumming credit on a Queens of the Stone Age album). I learned a lot from him over the years. As much as I could! Going in to a session and telling the engineer that you want a "fat" sound with lots of "tone" and plenty of "crack", but not too much! is exactly how you end up with a hot mess for a final product. Learn to run sound!
toddbishop
Platinum Member
Not really. The band (including the drummer) is the client here, and the engineer is the contractor. I don't care if we're calling the guy "producer" of this little demo, the client does not work for the contractor.
It's not clear to me the OP understands the difference between an engineer and a producer-- whatever he thinks those things mean, he obviously didn't expect to be taking orders from the guy, or the other things that happened.
That's putting it mildly. This engineer is an extremely poor communicator. Since he's the contractor, and the specialist, he's supposed to be communicating with the client, not giving orders/ultimatums, and making changes to the client's gear without asking.
If the drummer is also a contractor, then he and the engineer both need to advise and consult with each other and with the client/producer to arrive at a drum sound that works for the client.
To me that's very strange. I have never walked up to a recording or sound engineer at the beginning of a session or performance and asked him what sound he thinks best serves my music. It's your job to know what sounds serve the music, and, if you're the client, your own creative vision for the project. It's the recording engineer's job to record that, and if necessary advise/consult on how to make that happen.
Hollywood Jim
Platinum Member
This is my fault. When I originally asked the OP who was the "producer", I meant "Producer" to mean someone who works with/for the band.
As in George Martin with the Beatles.
Last week I went into the studio to record. The engineer was a drummer. He had a drum set all set up and microphones all set up. I used all of his stuff. But I had my stuff just in case. We recorded and then he let me listen to the drum sound to make sure it was OK with me and the band leader.
The first time I went into a studio to record in 1967, the engineer was Frank Zappa with the assistance of Ian Underwood. Long story.
They were recording my band for a project Frank was doing. No problem when the engineer is a musical genius.
So as far as studio work is concerned I have been VERY blessed.
.
Hollywood Jim
Platinum Member
I didnt say they were not musicians. I said it was not imperative for the sound engineer to be able to play the drums, his job is to know how to get the sound a band want by knowing the room and the studio equipment inside out. That way he can record instrumants in a way that pleases the customer.
I couldnt care how good a musician someone is, If I am paying them to engineer a recording I want them to be good at that job and help me get what I want.
Push pull stroke
Platinum Member
I can't imagine an engineer telling me what to do, or having the last word on my drum sound, ESPECIALLY snare sound. And if you touch my drum set without asking first to make changes to the sound, I'm apt to kick you out of the building and just find another engineer. I'm not a musician to serve someone else's basic sound preferences over mine. I have opinions about drum sounds, strong ones. And I generally find they are in the majority of experienced, gifted drummers' opinions.
Wow. Just wow. If the engineer were a gifted drummer with chops roughly as good or better than mine, or an incredibly gifted producer and musician, I'd definitely listen to his version of the sounds he wants, but I am the final decider. I mean, this isn't like swapping drums at a conductor's request for a concert band or orchestra performance. This is a recording that has my name on the drum sound. It's forever, it's not a live performance. Damn.
Wow. Just wow. If the engineer were a gifted drummer with chops roughly as good or better than mine, or an incredibly gifted producer and musician, I'd definitely listen to his version of the sounds he wants, but I am the final decider. I mean, this isn't like swapping drums at a conductor's request for a concert band or orchestra performance. This is a recording that has my name on the drum sound. It's forever, it's not a live performance. Damn.
Erberderber
Senior Member
I'm with the OP and Todd Bishop on this. The sound guy is there to do a job, which doesn't mean doing as he pleases. I teach English to Italian people. If a student of mine wanted to learn vocabulary and espressions for describing charts and graphs in a power point presentation and I insisted on doing countless grammar drills with him, I wouldn't be doing my job properly. The sound man is there to provide a service and should therefore listen and cooperate with his customers.
Rosemarydrumco
Senior Member
Both of you are misunderstanding what I was saying. When I wrote I was thinking of a a couple situations. The serve the music comment I was thinking of where I play drums on the weekend is a good example. It's a large church with full time engineer. We have dialogue...I want the way I have tech'ed my drums to complement the sound that is common and fitting for the way the church does music. I would never just roll in and say this is how my drums have to sound...especially if it wasn't complementing the entire band...and yes If the engineer said your drums are too ringy, or tuned to high or whatever I'd change them. I think this applies to session work too...often the producer has a certain sound in mind he wants to achieve, and working with the engineer can help to achieve this.
I also think of a typical studio session with a popular band. Like when I read an article the other day about Ronnie Vannucci in the studio...and he talks about how he worked with his producer and engineer to capture the vision the band and he had for drums for their most recent record.
I know if I was going in the studio with my band I'd want to work as closely with the experts to help achieve the best possible sound for the record and for my band. It's important to realize that the sound you may be after as a band may require so adjustments to the way you normally do things as a drummer when it comes to the studio
I'm not suggesting letting the engineer/producer make all the calls but in a professional setup, typically it's not just "hey I am going to just roll in and do whatever I want as the drummer....because hey I am the drummer...and nobody touches my drums!" Lol. Not only that but why wouldn't you dialogue with your engineer/producer as he has the experience to record great sonics usually and he is on the other side listening to everything...Teamwork makes great recordings
I know it's not apples to apples because the OP was talking about his band but in the session world in Nashville where there is ten guys in line to session drum, being hard to work with and a pain in the ass will get you straight to the bottom of the list. Guys who know how to work with people in the studio get the gig...and in the OPs case, leads to a better recording
I don't know Im coming more from the angle of hired drummer I think because that is more my experience....if I was bringing in my own personal band I may have stronger opinions on how the drums should sound, but most likely I would find an engineer that I really loved his stuff and just let him do his thing.
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The OP's preferred setup consisted of using a full head and a pillow, which might just be a little bit more difficult to mic than any other configuration.
Maybe it all comes down to the question of how many layers of additive manipulations are going to be used to get a different and seemingly more professional sound.
Maybe the whole thing could have been done with one mic, but maybe that wouldn't fit the preconceived mold that's needed for further throttling of the sound.
Maybe it all comes down to the question of how many layers of additive manipulations are going to be used to get a different and seemingly more professional sound.
Maybe the whole thing could have been done with one mic, but maybe that wouldn't fit the preconceived mold that's needed for further throttling of the sound.
beyondbetrayal
Platinum Member
There are a ton of situations that play out in my mind.
If you are good at tuning your drums, and you will know the answer to that, then it could be he is very specific to how he wants stuff to sound. This could either be because he is a very good engineer going for a certain sound, or a bad engineer that can't mix and work with anything else.
I don't know how good this guy is but I agree usually it's best to listen to the guy recording you. If you piss him off the album isn't going to sound as good... I recorded with a guy recently and he had me tune my snare MUCH lower than I prefer. I went to this guy because I have heard his work. He does have a specific sound and quality to his work that I enjoy so I went with it. It was almost difficult to play but the end result was very good.
If you ever go to another studio pick someone based on the work they have done in the past, that way if they ask you do do some wacky stuff to your drums you can trust them that it will sound good.
I also agree the sound engineer is not your producer and should be asking the BAND what kindof sound they want, but based on THAT he knows his room the best and what is required to get that specific sound. I often will bring in an album similar to the sound I want and play a few tracks.
Mic position is VERY important. It shouldn't be in the way and that is bizarre if it is.. but inches make a night and day difference. I just track myselfin my basement now and am getting to know my room, mics, drums, heads, mic positions and slight adjustments make a very big difference.
If you are good at tuning your drums, and you will know the answer to that, then it could be he is very specific to how he wants stuff to sound. This could either be because he is a very good engineer going for a certain sound, or a bad engineer that can't mix and work with anything else.
I don't know how good this guy is but I agree usually it's best to listen to the guy recording you. If you piss him off the album isn't going to sound as good... I recorded with a guy recently and he had me tune my snare MUCH lower than I prefer. I went to this guy because I have heard his work. He does have a specific sound and quality to his work that I enjoy so I went with it. It was almost difficult to play but the end result was very good.
If you ever go to another studio pick someone based on the work they have done in the past, that way if they ask you do do some wacky stuff to your drums you can trust them that it will sound good.
I also agree the sound engineer is not your producer and should be asking the BAND what kindof sound they want, but based on THAT he knows his room the best and what is required to get that specific sound. I often will bring in an album similar to the sound I want and play a few tracks.
Mic position is VERY important. It shouldn't be in the way and that is bizarre if it is.. but inches make a night and day difference. I just track myselfin my basement now and am getting to know my room, mics, drums, heads, mic positions and slight adjustments make a very big difference.
Mongrel
Silver Member
Just a thought, that hopefully may be helpful to the discussion...
To the OP: What level of studio is this, and how much did you guys pay? I teread your posts and didn't see any particulars about the studio, only the engineer and the goal of having a recording "to get some gigs".
It seems that without knowing that, the responses here may not have as much value. Guys are commenting on some pretty high-end recording situations that may not be applicable to the OPs situation.
Whether the OP is talking about a $99 4hr session or a $4000 4hr session would certainly have some bearing on the engineer's behavior and the general attitude in the studio....
To the OP: What level of studio is this, and how much did you guys pay? I teread your posts and didn't see any particulars about the studio, only the engineer and the goal of having a recording "to get some gigs".
It seems that without knowing that, the responses here may not have as much value. Guys are commenting on some pretty high-end recording situations that may not be applicable to the OPs situation.
Whether the OP is talking about a $99 4hr session or a $4000 4hr session would certainly have some bearing on the engineer's behavior and the general attitude in the studio....