I've got the "looper" blues

Hollywood Jim said:
Please help me understand this new (new to me) electronic device.
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Take a look. On a typical ditto, first click begins recording. Second click stops recording and begins playback. Holding down the button clears the loop. Different pedals have different features, such as loop layering and being able to pause/stop/start the loop.

For a guitarist, it's a godsend, as they can play with themselves without involving a bunch of other hands-on equipment. I can play 4 bars and work out leads on my own time, without having to bother my bandmates. I can even try out stuff I'd be embarrassed to do in front of my band mates. I can put an FX processor in the chain and keep a loop going while I fiddle with the sound searching for something that fits.

For live playing, they kinda suck, and are far more difficult to use than a drummers sample-pad (which is where the loop should probably originate). Unless the guitarist is playing a straight downstroke (like I did) or staccato, there's very little cue-ing mid-loop for the drummer to gauge the tempo.

There are other great uses for loopers....
 
Bo Eder said:
Come on Larry - how good can be be if he insists in using gear that screws everything up? To play great is one thing. To be aware of what he's doing to the other musicians is something else. Are you really sure he's the sharpest tool in the shed?
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He's a great player. He's a bad front man. If someone requests something, he usually makes them wait a few songs, maybe next set...to hear it. But the guy plays the nicest sounding guitar. He's not all in your face. His musical choices are at such a high level and his execution is jaw dropping at times, but he is always, always tasteful. The consummate musician. I've never heard him talk of anything except music, it's all he lives for. He just wants the best sounding band. Today is the four year anniversary of my being in his band.

He definitely challenges his band. Never a set list. We have to recognize whatever he starts, with no heads up. Some songs...Tom Petty's "Running Down a Dream"....the first crash and the pretty strong driving beat of that song happens about 1 second after he plays the first note. So far I've never missed it. I like the challenge. No keys are ever called out, they should be known. (much to the bass players dismay, he has a bad memory for these things)

So musically, IMO, he most definitely is the sharpest tool in the shed. I've only seen one guy on the same level as him in my scene. As a people person, he is pretty lacking.

He starts and stops the loop with enough accuracy where it isn't a problem. Sometimes he starts wrong, but knows it and stops and starts again. And when I get out of sync, he turns it off. It's like he's trying to get me to go longer and longer without going out. Sometimes I make it to the end of his lead. Most times I don't. Sometimes he lays more than one loop down. Like I said, it's a challenge and one that I'm not shrinking away from.

And when I go out of sync....it really doesn't sound that bad, he'll turn it off before it gets too noticeable. My big thing is I can't play on a high level with the looper, I have to come down to earth. I have to just play the groove, I can't "answer" him that well or play to his spaces as easily because most of my brain power is dedicated to trying to pick out the loop.

If I made this guy out to be a villian, I didn't intend that. He's not, he just has super high standards when it comes to music. I love my gig with him so much.

Sometimes I'll be playing to a loop and not even realize that it's going. I like that. Maybe it's better if I don't watch when he's doing it.
 
I coulda had her in London Lar. We were all alone in her room. She did mention you I remember. I think she said, Gee I wish Larry8 were here too.

:)
 
larryace said:
He's a great player. He's a bad front man. If someone requests something, he usually makes them wait a few songs, maybe next set...to hear it. But the guy plays the nicest sounding guitar. He's not all in your face. His musical choices are at such a high level and his execution is jaw dropping at times, but he is always, always tasteful. The consummate musician. I've never heard him talk of anything except music, it's all he lives for. He just wants the best sounding band. Today is the four year anniversary of my being in his band.
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That's awesome. Let him know that you're having trouble with the loops, and that it needs to be sorted out. I'd recommend recording the loops ahead of time and using a trigger pad.

What he's doing is not unheard of. Warren Zevon and a number of other artists have used it to great effect. It's just that the loop needs to come in/out cleanly, and the other musicians need to hear it. It needs to contain audible clues so that everyone can follow the tempo. The timing within the loop needs to be airtight, and not guitarist-tight.
 
KamaK said:
That's awesome. Let him know that you're having trouble with the loops, and that it needs to be sorted out. I'd recommend recording the loops ahead of time and using a trigger pad.

What he's doing is not unheard of. Warren Zevon and a number of other artists have used it to great effect. It's just that the loop needs to come in/out cleanly, and the other musicians need to hear it. It needs to contain audible clues so that everyone can follow the tempo. The timing within the loop needs to be airtight, and not guitarist-tight.
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Funny you mention Warren Zevon. In passing, I said I like some of his songs, the biting wit. Turns out he did a tour where he was in the opening act and he said Warren was the biggest d!@%.

If I told him I was having trouble with the loop....he already knows that. I have to explain him a little to you guys, I never really went into the dynamic that he brings. I can't tell him anything. He's acclimating me to the looper, that's what I think, but he would never say that. He's grooming me in a way to be his perfect drummer, is the feeling I get. (happy to do it too) Talking about music, he is a total snob and a huge know it all. And he really has been there and done that, his resume is impressive. He's got a gold record on his wall, he played the acoustic guitar in Billy Joel's "The Entertainer". I can't believe I get to play drums with him.

But he's kind of...condescending in attitude. That's why we don't work more. His people skills. At heart he is a sensitive musician who needs acceptance and he's a genuinely caring guy. But he can be completely brutally honest without blinking an eye. Outwardly he is subtly intimidating to most. That's the best word to describe him, intimidating. When I first met him, I was intimidated beyond belief by his demeanor. Very pessimistic. So were many other people, they told me so. He's like your strict Dad lol.

In the beginning, (2003) coming off a 20 year break, he didn't like me, because I didn't play good enough. I played too loud with the enthusiasm of a rock drummer instead of the controlled simmering of a good blues drummer. As I progressed on the journey, and settled into the path more, he started liking me, and now we are a team. If he compliments you, it's a big deal. He never says anything gratuitously. I'm his biggest fan. If only we had a great bass player. We did, she left to seek her fortune in Nashville, where she is succeeding nicely (she's on salary. How many musicians do you know who are on salary?) But the guitar player, If he likes the way you play, he is a very kind person. His ultimate bass player is the one who left for Nashville. He loves her so much. She is his Tal Wilkenfeld, she even looks remarkably like her, and has hung out with her. She's this short little Jewish girl who can really play the bass. He's heartbroken about it. She's always comes up for a steady New Years gig we have though. So that's always awesome.

But if he doesn't like the way you play, you get critiqued, no matter what instrument. Usually to me and Ryan the Nashville bass player lol. He's all music, all the time. I definitely consider him a mentor. I just want to play on the level he does.

He's an interesting individual and a great case study of an old school, (he's 69 soon) dyed in the wool, hardcore musician.

But if he has the patience for me to keep chipping away at this looper thing, I'll gladly do it. It's not all night.
 
Please help me understand this new (new to me) electronic device.
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Jim, it's basically the same as the backing track parts you were playing here but the guitarist is triggering them with a foot switch.

And, he may have just recorded them prior to triggering them or he may have recorded them earlier.

Think "Jumpin Jack Flash" The guitarist hits a button, plays a measure or two of the rhythm part, hits another button and the part repeats itself until it's stopped.

In my bands, the guitarist pre records those parts and I trigger them when they come up.

It's easy enough to play along with but, you must be able to hear it.

Personally, I think it should be the drummers job to trigger the loops/tracks because, we know how to hit stuff at the right time.
 
New Tricks said:
Jim, it's basically the same as the backing track parts you were playing here but the guitarist is triggering them with a foot switch.

And, he may have just recorded them prior to triggering them or he may have recorded them earlier.

Think "Jumpin Jack Flash" The guitarist hits a button, plays a measure or two of the rhythm part, hits another button and the part repeats itself until it's stopped.

In my bands, the guitarist pre records those parts and I trigger them when they come up.

It's easy enough to play along with but, you must be able to hear it.

Personally, I think it should be the drummers job to trigger the loops/tracks because, we know how to hit stuff at the right time.
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Thank you John...........

I'm assuming that if you record while you are playing and immediately hit loop/play the play back would stay with the beat.

I think the solution for Larry is a small monitor so he can hear the guitar loop better.

I use one of these mounted on a stand so I can hear the singers:

Galaxy_hot_spot_collage.jpg


.
 
Hollywood Jim said:
I'm assuming that if you record while you are playing and immediately hit loop/play the play back would stay with the beat.
.
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Assuming he played it in tempo :)

If a loop is off a touch, you will be fighting it all the way.

I use one of these mounted on a stand so I can hear the singers:
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I tried one of those but the small speaker sounded terrible. I thought it would be awesome not having to lug a heavy monitor around.
 
Tried it several times and hated it. Even if the loop is airtight and if you can hear it properly, the looper is like a player who does not listen to anyone.

Then again he's the ideal scapegoat :)
 
larryace said:
Funny you mention Warren Zevon. In passing, I said I like some of his songs, the biting wit. Turns out he did a tour where he was in the opening act and he said Warren was the biggest d!@%.

If I told him I was having trouble with the loop....he already knows that. I have to explain him a little to you guys, I never really went into the dynamic that he brings. I can't tell him anything. He's acclimating me to the looper, that's what I think, but he would never say that. He's grooming me in a way to be his perfect drummer, is the feeling I get. (happy to do it too) Talking about music, he is a total snob and a huge know it all. And he really has been there and done that, his resume is impressive. He's got a gold record on his wall, he played the acoustic guitar in Billy Joel's "The Entertainer". I can't believe I get to play drums with him.

But he's kind of...condescending in attitude. That's why we don't work more. His people skills. At heart he is a sensitive musician who needs acceptance and he's a genuinely caring guy. But he can be completely brutally honest without blinking an eye. Outwardly he is subtly intimidating to most. That's the best word to describe him, intimidating. When I first met him, I was intimidated beyond belief by his demeanor. Very pessimistic. So were many other people, they told me so. He's like your strict Dad lol.

In the beginning, (2003) coming off a 20 year break, he didn't like me, because I didn't play good enough. I played too loud with the enthusiasm of a rock drummer instead of the controlled simmering of a good blues drummer. As I progressed on the journey, and settled into the path more, he started liking me, and now we are a team. If he compliments you, it's a big deal. He never says anything gratuitously. I'm his biggest fan. If only we had a great bass player. We did, she left to seek her fortune in Nashville, where she is succeeding nicely (she's on salary. How many musicians do you know who are on salary?) But the guitar player, If he likes the way you play, he is a very kind person. His ultimate bass player is the one who left for Nashville. He loves her so much. She is his Tal Wilkenfeld, she even looks remarkably like her, and has hung out with her. She's this short little Jewish girl who can really play the bass. He's heartbroken about it. She's always comes up for a steady New Years gig we have though. So that's always awesome.

But if he doesn't like the way you play, you get critiqued, no matter what instrument. Usually to me and Ryan the Nashville bass player lol. He's all music, all the time. I definitely consider him a mentor. I just want to play on the level he does.

He's an interesting individual and a great case study of an old school, (he's 69 soon) dyed in the wool, hardcore musician.

But if he has the patience for me to keep chipping away at this looper thing, I'll gladly do it. It's not all night.
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You'll have to forgive me for saying so, but great musicianship does not trump great personality and social skills. I don't know who this person is, but you enjoy playing with him. However, what you're describing just sounds totally unattractive to me. Any kind of condescending-ness is just a big turn-off. Brutal honesty, yeah, there's a place for that, but you have to know when to do it. It sounds like this guy is old enough that he no longer cares about social graces. But if you say he's brilliant enough....

And this looper thing just sounds like his social grace is extending into the use of this tool. He likes it, so he no longer cares if it messes up the music or the band. It's a shame because people who get that old and act like that, well, people who have to deal with them are just waiting for them to get older and fade away. I'd hate for people to think that way about me, wouldn't you?
 
Wow Matt, you and I play silly on this forum a lot but when you shoot for real I don't think you miss. Somewhere along my path, when I was learning to be a musician before I fell in love and became a drummer, I got a similar idea in my head. I subscribed to the idea that personality came before skill.

I'm not a pro player but this has never lead me astray, if we're in a band because of the love of the gig then we shouldn't have to put up with chicanery. I approach a band that doesn't pay me with the same approach I go into a date. If we don't connect then we're not gonna work out.
 
Bo Eder said:
You'll have to forgive me for saying so, but great musicianship does not trump great personality and social skills. I don't know who this person is, but you enjoy playing with him. However, what you're describing just sounds totally unattractive to me. Any kind of condescending-ness is just a big turn-off. Brutal honesty, yeah, there's a place for that, but you have to know when to do it. It sounds like this guy is old enough that he no longer cares about social graces. But if you say he's brilliant enough....

And this looper thing just sounds like his social grace is extending into the use of this tool. He likes it, so he no longer cares if it messes up the music or the band. It's a shame because people who get that old and act like that, well, people who have to deal with them are just waiting for them to get older and fade away. I'd hate for people to think that way about me, wouldn't you?
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No forgive-ness necessary Bo. And yes, like you, I do care about what people think of me. He's past caring what anyone thinks of him, at least that's how he acts. And he's not a monster, he's just really picky about the music. He's him and if you like it great if not great. He's quirky. Bo if he was only an OK player, I'd be way different. I guess our tolerance level for really great players differs. I give complete and total leeway to anyone who can play great, because that's the most important thing to me. (as long as they don't disrespect me to my face). Offstage, as long as he's cool with me, and he really is, then I have no problems that his social graces are lacking with others. But he likes the way I play for him so I'm in his incredibly small "circle of trust" lol. (Meet the Parents reference) It's really only me and Ryan the bass player in that circle AFAIK. And I do feel incredibly privileged to be there.

At the end of the day, the positive (playing part) is like 95% and the rest is me just allowing him be him. He's pretty unchangeable too. The kind of thing where there's no changing anything, you can only accept that he's like he is and work around it. And I'm happy with that in this particular scenario, because he respects me mainly because he likes the way I play for him. I liken playing with Don Evans to being in a highly musical group like Steely Dan. Huge feather in my cap. I love being able to say I'm in his band. This looper thing can only be good for me. And it doesn't ruin anything, I'm just not perfect with it. He allows me to screw up and knows it can't be easy.

Believe me I've been fired from bands, quit bands, because I had problems with the playing. I have a mile long fuse but just plain don't want to waste my time with "just OK" playing. Don is one of the rare few people I know in this world who I sincerely love to play with, and who I learn from. I wouldn't jeopardize that for anyone or anything. Playing with him is the highlight of my life, truly. He can be however he is, as long as he treats me with respect, and keeps playing like he does. I actually look in the future and am terrified of the day that I won't be able to play music with him anymore. How will I be able to reach the mental states I do when playing? I can't get there with anyone else I know. I most definitely am dreading that day.

But thanks for the concern Bo. Have you ever played with someone that you enjoyed so much that it trumps just about everything else? I consider myself very lucky indeed.
 
I was thinking the same thing as Jim as I was going through the thread. Run an output (or split) off the looper to a Hot Spot where you can hear it but he can't.

I tried doing a couple of things with a guy who used a looper. He had pretty good time otherwise, but the least little bit off setting the loop and the beat would have this persistent hitch you'd have to recognize and follow. And since he was soloing over it, the loop was harder to hear.

The only person I've seen successfully use a looper is my bud Kid Andersen with Rick Estrin & the Nightcats. And he doesn't play rhythm parts on it. It's just a stunt in the middle of a set where he plays a repeating riff (common in blues anyway) loops it and then he and Rick throw their hands up in the air while the guitar keeps going. Even at his level, he knows better than to try and do rhythms live with a band.
 
larryace said:
No forgive-ness necessary Bo. And yes, like you, I do care about what people think of me. He's past caring what anyone thinks of him, at least that's how he acts.
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Good on him, I say! Screw what others think of you. The only thing he's doing wrong is being a bit insensitive about how he makes others feel within themselves, which doesn't work for me but I can understand why you're fine with him. Besides, I'd rather someone be pleasant because they care about others' happiness than because they care about what I might think of them.

I like what he's doing - he's setting you a challenge with the aim of achieving a fuller band sound during solos. It seems like you need monitoring, though.

You could take Aeolian's advice or get a feed in the looped solo songs through a single can or ear bud, leaving the other ear to pick up ambient sound (I've done this before because I hate cans too - I don't even like them when just listening to music). Thing is, you wouldn't want to be in the situation where you're trying to stay locked in with a loop while playing in a room with muddy acoustics.
 
Best advice I could offer after dealing with this exact issue in my current band is to simply get rid of the looper, and if not possible, get rid of the guitarist.

My guitarist, great guy, used one because when I joined the band, it was just a trio, bass, drums, and guitar. I have experienced first-hand everything you have talked about. It is the suck! There are so many variables and opportunities for a train wreck, that it totally kills the advantage this device might offer. I would say that it has its place if someone wants to practice a part or something, but NOT in a live situation!

I have had to play though one of my favorite songs against this evil device several times live. Something gets off, and then what the hell are you supposed to do? Do you follow the dumb loop, the bassist, what the guitarist is currently doing, ignore all and plow on ahead? And depending on the situation, and how well, and if you are monitored, it might not even be an option to hear what someone is doing.

They are just terrible. I can think of tons of three piece bands that got by without such a device or layered guitars, and they didn't sound empty.

Thankfully, we added another guitar into the mix, so bye bye looper!

Good luck brother!
 
Here's another thought. Thinking back to my gig last night. Some, fairly competent, guitarists don't understand how to comp. They are so busy, use full tone, or are so loud, that when they go to a single line solo the bottom drops out. They are very aware of the sudden emptiness so they tend to play very busy solos or start doing chordish things to keep it up. Or do something crazy like run a looper so what they were doing before keeps going.

The problem isn't with their soloing, it's with their comping. The mix is solo (singer or soloing instrument), drums, bass, and other comping instruments. In that order of precedence. Even in guitar heavy rock songs, that screaming distorted guitar part is still lower than the vocals, drums and equal to or lower than the bass.

Most guitarists in rock bands need to have their amp cranked to get that sound. So they play at the same volume all through the song. And you get that bottom falling out thing during the solos.

There are a few ways out of this. Frank Gambale and Jimmy Herring use a separate volume pedal in the loop of their amp to control the overall volume. They use another volume pedal (or you can use the knobs on the guitar) to control the gain. I have a buddy Ken Harrill (who is all over the first Guitar Hero tracks) who does the same thing and I've played his rig. It works really well and gave me the idea for option 2. I use an overdrive pedal ahead of my volume pedal for songs where there is a distorted comp part. It's not the tone from the gods that I get from my amp, but it works for background parts. I switch to the amps OD for solo parts, or run both together for over the top gain. Another option is to use 2 amps with a switcher. If that is too much space on stage, there is a thing called a Tonebone that switches multiple heads into the same cabinet.

One way or the other, you need to turn down the comp parts so there is some place to go with the solos. Work this part out and he won't feel the need for the looper.
 
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