Mike Portnoy

[DrummerDad]

I read all the titles and found nothing on him so here goes.

I love his technique. I used to listen to all the "normal" stuff till I heard him. And it seems all I want to listen to is Dream Theater now. I have played for awhile, and most drummers have certain niches, or habits. Once you figure out what they are doing you can play it. I usually can play a song the 2nd or 3rd time I hear it, But his stuff takes weeks, months on some of it, just to figure out the numbers behind what he is doing.What drives me crazy is most people( non-players) look at me like Im crazy when I start to try to explain what he is doing. They are like, man he screwed that up, and Im like, No he just dropped a beat, He'll pick it up in a minute.His drumming has texture, all the normal stuff is boring now. Can anyone tell me of a comparable band, with all the technicality of DT?What do you guys think of Mike? Sorry if this is a repost.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Mike_Portnoy.html

[finnhiggins]

Personally I think he's a basher playing complex music. His actual physical technique is pretty shocking, and to my ears he uses that whole 2xhands/2xfeet/4xhands/2xfeet stuff far too often. I also think the size of his kit is ludicrous for the musical results he gets, he could play the same kind of stuff on a kit a third of the size and still have plenty of room to move.

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

But that's just me. I just reckon Portnoy kind of fits the profile his history would suggest - somebody who went to Berklee but never went to class.

EDIT: Ouch, that was a bit harsh. I'll be nicer. I do think Portnoy gets some impressive results, and his control over time is very good. He's quite a natural when it comes to playing stuff in odd groupings. His tone is also surprisingly good considering the fact that his hand technique looks like Dave Grohl's. But then, there's plenty of drummers who look hideous when they play but sound great - like Gary Husband. So yeah. I don't like his technique, the music isn't to my taste and I don't think he's quite as good as all the hype would suggest. But he's certainly a very solid player with some flashy chops.

[Dyaxe]

@ finn

ill have to disagree, portnoy uses his whole kit most of the time. he wouldn't be able to do as much on a smaller kit. ill have to agree though, he does seem to use that 2x hand 2x feet ect.. quite often, but heck...to me its better then hearing a straight forward rock beat.


as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.

anywho..portnoy is definetly one of my favorite drummers. his sound, his technique, his presence and everything else is just awsome.

[DrummerDad]

I dont experiment much with music. The tastes of most are weird to me. Are there any other drummers, who can actually play like him? Im talking about the stuff where his feet are playing 3-4 time, and he cymbal crashes on 4-4 time, or where he plays in a 4-4 time while the band plays in a 3-4 or 6-8. His timing is superb if you ask me. And hes a triple threat. Clean, Fast, and Technical. I know Rush has played weird time sigs before, but its like these guys could care less about a time sig. If the words require a 5-8 in the first measure and a 3-4 or 7-8 in the next, so be it.I think its borderline genious. Any one else play like that, if so who?

[stagecustom]

try danny carey from TOOL.

[Scottylawton]

Yeh Danny does it heaps, good example the bridge i guess you'd call it on Lateralus at the 4:40 mark the whole band play something way different to each other, really good stuff.

[Scottylawton]

Oh and Thomas Lang and Virgil Donati do it well too.

[finnhiggins]

@
as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.


I'd disagree. Check out the solo on "Soul Burn", particularly from about 2:55 in. Ouch.

[Joe Morris]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.

[darkcherryfade]

I consider Kenneth Schalk from Candiria to be a master at the kind of drumming style you seem to be describing. They're very much like fusion-metal as opposed to prog-metal, so the approach is a little different, but it's very complex (the older stuff anyway). I think you can appreciate it.

I think Portnoy is a decent player, although I prefer a looser kind of style. His feel is a little too rigid for me, but it works with Dream Theater's music. Does he seem a little rushed sometimes to anyone else?

[Lambo]

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

That album is INCREDIBLE!!!!!

[finnhiggins]

That album is INCREDIBLE!!!!!

Seen the video of Agren playing with Fredrik Thordendal here on Drummerworld?

[Pedro]

Mike Portnoy is for me the perfect drummer for Dream Theater. I love their music. For me it's orgasmic music.

BUT: I don't like Mike in an other context. (for e.g. Yellow Matter Custard - plays way to hard and not creative for the kind of music)

Ok, Thomas Haake with Meshuggah is really good, but you certainly can't compare the styles. Haake wouldn't fit in Dream Theater like Portnoy does. But of course he is a really crazy drummer (got the cd "destroy erase..." 2 days ago). Some people want to play such kind of music (like Meshugghag) with me, mut I don't know if I'm able to.

[MaxRoach]

I respect portnoy so much. He's basically the reason that I got into drums so heavily. I remember about 4 years ago when my friend would show me DT cd's and I'd be so amazed because I'd never heard anything so ..... odd. I would get him to give me CD's and I would just learn all of portnoy's licks on my basement floor because I didn't have a double kick pedal yet. His playing pretty much inspired me to get into odd times and it helps me bring it into jazz playing which makes it all the more interesting. But like any drummer, it gets to the point where you understand what they are doing and you find them 'boring' or 'tasteless'. But if there's one thing I've realized, is that you can learn something from EVERY drummer. And personally, I love the music (maybe because I literally like every style of music =\ )

[finnhiggins]

I consider Kenneth Schalk from Candiria to be a master at the kind of drumming style you seem to be describing. They're very much like fusion-metal as opposed to prog-metal, so the approach is a little different, but it's very complex (the older stuff anyway). I think you can appreciate it.


I've got 300% Density around somewhere and it sounds to my ear like some of his timing is a bit off. Is the newer stuff better in that respect? It sounds a bit uncertain, nothing like as solid as Portnoy for example.

[darkcherryfade]

I've got 300% Density around somewhere and it sounds to my ear like some of his timing is a bit off. Is the newer stuff better in that respect? It sounds a bit uncertain, nothing like as solid as Portnoy for example.

I always found his timing to be pretty precise. I see what you mean about that "a bit uncertain" thing. At first I thought that too- alot of times on their old stuff, I'd think I hear him miss something, but when I listen to the segment again I notice some of his weird displacements and transitions. He's very jazzy on those albums and he has an interesting way of working around a beat that does sometimes sound a little weird, but there definitely is a very unique, very dynamic, often very embellished groove to it that'll make your head nod in a strangely pleasant way if you can get into it. Not to say his timing is perfect, cause mine sure as hell isn't so I can't judge someone elses. The newer album called "What Doesn't Kill You" has more straightforward rhythms, even in the odd time segments, and I did notice the timing was a hell of a lot tighter. And I always thought he was as solid as Portnoy.

[LiquidSoul546]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.

You walked out? haha, why? (i might have too)
My thoughts on Portnoy are...Solid drummer. Very intelligent on his profession, but, I personally beleive, he just puts 4/4 stuff in different time signatures haha. Plus he is a bit cocky. Watch his Budokan dvd, he never sits down, and i heard he flicks people off during his concerts.
peace

[finnhiggins]

I always found his timing to be pretty precise. I see what you mean about that "a bit uncertain" thing. At first I thought that too- alot of times on their old stuff, I'd think I hear him miss something, but when I listen to the segment again I notice some of his weird displacements and transitions. He's very jazzy on those albums and he has an interesting way of working around a beat that does sometimes sound a little weird, but there definitely is a very unique, very dynamic, often very embellished groove to it that'll make your head nod in a strangely pleasant way if you can get into it. Not to say his timing is perfect, cause mine sure as hell isn't so I can't judge someone elses. The newer album called "What Doesn't Kill You" has more straightforward rhythms, even in the odd time segments, and I did notice the timing was a hell of a lot tighter. And I always thought he was as solid as Portnoy.

Spurred by your post I actually went digging and found that CD. I found both what I remembered and what you're saying is pretty much right - there's some stuff where I swear the time isn't quite metronomically correct, particularly in the unison sections with big gaps - there's a cymbal crash on the 10th track at about 1:42-44 that definitely sounds out of time with the rest of the band coming back in, things like that. But equally, he's very solid whenever he's in a groove, and I like his washy cymbal sounds and ghost notes a lot more than Portnoy's approach personally.

I did remember why I never listen to this album though. The engineering is horrible! I've recorded better sounding stuff than this, and I suck as an engineer! Also, they really need to get a new singer. This guy sounds like he's doing a very deliberate impression of a fourteen-year-old shouting at his parents about how unfair the world is, complete with nasal wobbling and sounding like he's about to start crying. The rest of the band are pretty good when he shuts up though. Best bit of the album I can find is the start of track #10 (before the vocals start) and the hidden instrumental track at the end.

[Elemental Nausea]

@ finn

as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.


man lots of ridiculous stuff written here( dyaxe was just an example): portnoy`s technique is really NOT that good, his stick conrol looks really odd to me, like someone else already said in this thread, and it is not right that you can`t recognize habits in his playing like for example this well-known combinations between the hands and the feet.
Man if you really want to listen to crazy stuff, try listening to meshuggah , spastic inc. or necrophagist(the craziest I know) dream theater is really simple compared to them.
saying that portnoy is way more technical than haake is so ridiculous, portnoy could never play the stuff haake does, and haake would be to bored playing portnoy`s stuff. Such crazy time-signature rotating like in meshuggah I have really never heard before

[Shekhy]

I really don't like the attitude of Portnoy, too much show off and that can be felt in his playing. Anyway there are lots of interesting things to learn by listening to him. But I really prefer in that style of music (DT or Liquid Drum Theater) drummers such as Sean Reinert (Gordian Knot, Aghora, Cynic) or the work of Marcel Dissantos in Atheist.
As for Necrophagist, on the 1st album it's a drum machine and on the second album it's "just" excellent Death Metal drumming (and I think that Muhammed Suicmez playing the guitare is what makes the difference in this band, not the drumming), anyway you can find such stuff in Iniquity, Psychophagist, Lost Soul and the list is almost endless.

[DrummerDad]

I have respect for Tools drummer, and I liked the stuff from Creed, but all these others, I have never heard.

The reason I like Portnoy so much is his depth. There are albums they have that they play several different types and styles of music( listen to Change of seasons). He can go slow(which drives me crazy) and he can go fast. he can get technical, or play a little bluesy, or jazzy. I have learned 10 fold since I started playing DT. Hes not the fastest, the cleanest, or the most technical, but to say hes no good, to me is bold. I used to think I was a mediocre drummer, back when I played ONE from Metallica, and a little Pantera. But since I have stepped up to DT, I feel I am at least 2-3 times better.

One thing I have noticed though. If I dont play an album for awhile, say like Images and Words, and I go and try to play, Its like starting over. It might just be because I suck, but I only get about 2-3 hours practice a week.

I guess I need to try a few new groups, But im a little wearry of the crazy stuff. I have 3 kids and a wife who likes country(gag), so I have to keep it cool. I bought my Disturbed from Wal-mart because its edited. I dont get into the satanic stuff, or the really raw stuff, like Dio, or Zombie, but any bands along the lines od Tool, or Dream Theater, I would definately consider. Also I'll need band names, im not up on my drummers to much.

Im just a guy who likes to jam, I dont play in a band, never will. I like complex and crunchy music, and killer drums. Maybe someday my son will be a good drummer.

[Stu_Strib]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

I liked Portnoy on the Modern Drummer DVD when he did the Beatles bit. It shows he is indeed musical and a far superior drummer than I'll ever be. Its just when he switches to that rediculous purple kit that he loses me. His playing is intense and awesome there too, but its just not my gig.

Not being a Dream Theater fan (my brother, a non-musician being their biggest fan ever), I can say I really dig their bassist. He's the only guy in the band demonstrating one lick of restraint.

Sorry to sound disrespectful (I'm not), but I just don't get them. Maybe its the fact they are such superior players on their instruments that the average rocker dude is just blown away by how good they are (in respect to other rock bands?). I dunno, I'm just throwing that out there for discussion.

stu

[finnhiggins]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.


How do you figure that prog is borrowing from fusion more than the opposite is true? Billy Cobham was certainly influential for many of the fathers of modern prog drumming, but equally I don't think there's a lot of fusion drummers who aren't borrowing a few things from the likes of Bill Bruford on a regular basis. And they all borrow from the likes of Buddy Rich, Tony Williams and Elvin Jones.

You seem to feel that fusion is this source of all choppy musicianship and that other styles are just riding their coattails. Modern fusion chops are a combination of the paradiddle stuff made popular by both Bruford and Cobham, jazz drumming and afro-cuban material. It's quite easy to argue that modern prog is born of the same roots and therefore is no less valid in any way. It would be quite easy to argue that fusion is just pornificiation (my word!) of jazz and prog chops.

[MaxRoach]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

What do you think fusion is? You could argue that "prog" is fusion as well...fusion is just the "fusion" of styles.

[Stu_Strib]

Well either way, if fusion borrows from DT or vice versa, I don't like the middle ground that DT walks. Is it rock or is it fusion? Its somewhere in between. I'm not saying its bad, I just think DT has a bit of an identity crisis.

[finnhiggins]

Well either way, if fusion borrows from DT or vice versa, I don't like the middle ground that DT walks. Is it rock or is it fusion? Its somewhere in between. I'm not saying its bad, I just think DT has a bit of an identity crisis.

Not really, it's genre-happy prog rock. It seems like you're willing to give legitimacy to modern fusion as a genre (when it really is an amalgam of 70s fusion, jazz, latin and 80s AOR rock/pop) yet you won't extend the same to modern "prog-revival" music (which is an amalgam of 80s metal and 70s prog, mainstream rock and fusion). Dream Theater have a very clear identity - they rip off Rush about 80% of the time, and a combination of 80s and 90s metal and alt-rock acts (Pantera, Tool, Rage Against The Machine etc) the other 20% of the time.

I don't see how you can have respect for one as a unique style yet critique the other as suffering from an identity crisis. I think they're both suffering from one, being as fusion doesn't fuse styles anymore and prog isn't progressive. But you seem to disagree with one while asserting the other, which is just odd.

[Stu_Strib]

Not really, it's genre-happy prog rock. It seems like you're willing to give legitimacy to modern fusion as a genre (when it really is an amalgam of 70s fusion, jazz, latin and 80s AOR rock/pop) yet you won't extend the same to modern "prog-revival" music (which is an amalgam of 80s metal and 70s prog, mainstream rock and fusion). Dream Theater have a very clear identity - they rip off Rush about 80% of the time, and a combination of 80s and 90s metal and alt-rock acts (Pantera, Tool, Rage Against The Machine etc) the other 20% of the time.

I don't see how you can have respect for one as a unique style yet critique the other as suffering from an identity crisis. I think they're both suffering from one, being as fusion doesn't fuse styles anymore and prog isn't progressive. But you seem to disagree with one while asserting the other, which is just odd.

Eh, I don't disrespect either. Please don't put words in my mouth. I PREFER one over the other, because I feel its more true to the pure form of musicality, while the other adds an element of popular music to it, and, as already established, I don't particularly care for pop-music.

The part where you say they are 20% Pantera/Tool/Rage (although they've been around longer than Tool and Rage) is exactly why I don't like them as much. Its that 20% (dare I say sell-out?) that seems like a concerted effort to be more popular, rather than be more gooder (my word!).

My point is I prefer the purists to the popularists is all. Completely 100% my opinion and perrogative. Your disagreement is kinda silly. Its like me saying I like Green Day, then you saying they are just a ripoff of 70s and 80s punk. Well, yeah, so. I still like it. (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I think we killed the whole "fusion sucks and is nothing more than crappy porn music" thread elsewhere.

[hotsauce3n]

Personally I think he's a basher playing complex music. His actual physical technique is pretty shocking, and to my ears he uses that whole 2xhands/2xfeet/4xhands/2xfeet stuff far too often. I also think the size of his kit is ludicrous for the musical results he gets, he could play the same kind of stuff on a kit a third of the size and still have plenty of room to move.

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

But that's just me. I just reckon Portnoy kind of fits the profile his history would suggest - somebody who went to Berklee but never went to class.

.


i definately agree with this... but nevertheless hes still a good player.. does anyone know if that video of him at the drum clinic is by any chance the drum clinic in texas??

[finnhiggins]

The part where you say they are 20% Pantera/Tool/Rage (although they've been around longer than Tool and Rage) is exactly why I don't like them as much. Its that 20% (dare I say sell-out?) that seems like a concerted effort to be more popular, rather than be more gooder (my word!).


You mean, unlike that 20% of fusion that sounds like 80s AOR? Oh, and just to address the swiping-from-Rage-and-Tool thing... that came later. First Tool/RATM cribs I noticed were on Scenes From A Memory (both in the early minutes of "Home") and there's a really obvious Pantera riff on "The Test That Stumped Them All" from SDIT. So yeah, that's just in recent years. Before that they just sounded like Rush, so I guess you can enjoy them as purist for everything prior to Falling Into Infinity, no?


My point is I prefer the purists to the popularists is all. Completely 100% my opinion and perrogative. Your disagreement is kinda silly. Its like me saying I like Green Day, then you saying they are just a ripoff of 70s and 80s punk. Well, yeah, so. I still like it. (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I think we killed the whole "fusion sucks and is nothing more than crappy porn music" thread elsewhere.

This is a touch different. You do repeatedly seem to assert that other bands or styles of music are derivative of fusion (which suggests that fusion is superior, these other styles inferior) on a regular basis. That's really not the case. Fusion is derived from a bunch of other styles - hence the name - and those styles have also influenced other genres. It's a bit like saying that Brazillian music is derivative of Hip Hop because they share some minor rhythmic similarities in that they're both basically born from an African rhythmic tradition. You're quite welcome to say that, but it just doesn't make any sense.

If you want to talk about purists in Fusion, what are you listening to Vital Information for? They're very much later generation, heavily influenced fusion rather than the innovators that Return to Forever, Lifetime, Mahavishnu or Headhunters were. Your words don't add up to your tastes.

[Sticksman]

Portnoy is a very talented drummer in a difficult band (to play for). His style fits the music quite well, and he has several intricate fills to show off, plus he eats odd time sigs for breakfast.

However, I think he uses the 2x/2x/2x method way too much for my liking. A few more variations on it would be fine, but he seems pretty content with it. Oh well.

I like the fact that he makes use of his entire drum set during the course of DT's albums, and not just regulate himself to the bass and snare like oh so many other drummers out there. Hey, its progressive rock anyway, and he fits the bill nicely, though I wouldn't place him as the poster child for it.

[K!lly]

I own a lot of video of Mike P. I love his "efficient play"
And he really is a big drums freak....

..but

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.
Lot of people say also: "he 's the god of drums.. just look at his kit its the bigger one on the world...etc"

That I'm trying to say its that, in the same way for Travis Baker, some fans just hammered my head all time with Portnoy here, and Portnoy there.. "Ho, can you play like Portnoy pliz" or "hum I don't like the way you play, may be its because I allways listen to Portnoy"..etc

Ant Thats really boring......

Like my band.. they are professionnal musicians, really good player and all this stuff (but they don't know the "hidden" part of drum history).. and they want to write my scores in our songs, jus tin the way they heards drums on M.P records....

That make me really sick.

I really love Mike P. (and Travis B.), he's a model for me, but some people just make me hate them because they have big mouths and think that those drummers are the only drummers on the world....


so disgusting.

[silver_one_drummer127]

I own a lot of video of Mike P. I love his "efficient play"
And he really is a big drums freak....

..but

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.
Lot of people say also: "he 's the god of drums.. just look at his kit its the bigger one on the world...etc"

That I'm trying to say its that, in the same way for Travis Baker, some fans just hammered my head all time with Portnoy here, and Portnoy there.. "Ho, can you play like Portnoy pliz" or "hum I don't like the way you play, may be its because I allways listen to Portnoy"..etc

Ant Thats really boring......

Like my band.. they are professionnal musicians, really good player and all this stuff (but they don't know the "hidden" part of drum history).. and they want to write my scores in our songs, jus tin the way they heards drums on M.P records....

That make me really sick.

I really love Mike P. (and Travis B.), he's a model for me, but some people just make me hate them because they have big mouths and think that those drummers are the only drummers on the world....


so disgusting.I agree Mike P and Travis both play with very technical and consistant style and are both fantastic drummers.

[Paul Quin]

I also think he has great shoes

[silver_one_drummer127]

how have you seen his shoes?

[DrummerDad]

Well, I actually expected more positive feedback on Mike. And Ive never heard of DT "ripping off" other bands. Oh well, its what you like I guess. Ive always thought they were pretty original.
Mike can play fast, I have a video of them playing Metallica's Damage Inc. with some screeming "singer" dont know who it is. Anyway, Its definately faster than metallica played it, but Id put money on the fact that Larz cant play DT's stuff, and alot of the people here like Larz . But, I also know he cant play as fast as Panteras drummer. I used to be pretty fast, but as I started to play DT, I lost the speed, and replaced it with technical abitlity. Thats what I like. I like the sound of the double basses going full tilt, but to me its more about the odd beats. And that he is good at.
As for him(or them) ripping off Rush, I dont see it. JMO, but I think Mike is better than Peart. Peart is a percussionist, in that he plays some other percussion instruments, Mike is a drummer. I guess Peart is a much better musician, but Mike is a better drummer.
As for the rest of the band I think they are all just as talented, except the singer. They have excellent timing as a group, and do very well together.
Again what bands do these other drummers play for, i might listen to them a bit.

[finnhiggins]

Well, I actually expected more positive feedback on Mike. And Ive never heard of DT "ripping off" other bands. Oh well, its what you like I guess. Ive always thought they were pretty original.

They've certainly been doing some blatent borrowing of late. Compare the start of "Home" with the start of "46&2" by Tool, and the subsequent distorted wah riff with about half of RATM's "Evil Empire" album. Also the unison motif in "The Test that Stumped Them All" with "By Demons Be Driven" by Pantera.

[Big Evil]

Mike is one of my favourite drummers i just love all his stuff. I have 5 of the dream theater albums, live at budokan dvd and the liquid drum theater dvd and they are all amazing. I luv his drum sound live. To me he is a true drum god!

[Elemental Nausea]

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.


lol, are you a bit insane? Could you please tell me anyone who can go at 200 bpm for 5 mins?? lol I think noone can do this , except some complete WFD nerds

[K!lly]

.. it's was an image....

but I'm sure that "unknowed" people can do it.... and that doesn't mean they're good drummer....

it was an "example"

[Pratt]

for me, since metropolis part II (except for falling into infinity, wich I think is really poor), mr portnoy has kinda lost his way...he is way too far from that drummer who created those excellent arrangements for "when dream and day unite" and "images and words"... remember erotomania and 6 o´clock? where are them?

I wont demand for a band toalways put out great masterpieces but in fact, for me, dream theater has lost the way home since kevin moor quit them...

[MaxRoach]

for me, since metropolis part II (except for falling into infinity, wich I think is really poor), mr portnoy has kinda lost his way...he is way too far from that drummer who created those excellent arrangements for "when dream and day unite" and "images and words"... remember erotomania and 6 o´clock? where are them?

I wont demand for a band toalways put out great masterpieces but in fact, for me, dream theater has lost the way home since kevin moor quit them...
Hmm. Maybe it's because I just got into DT but my FAVOURITE album is Scenes from a Memory.....I just think that they are trying to go different routes with their cd's. I dont think they necessarily 'lost their way'. I like the way it's progressing.....their cd's are getting more metal.....and portnoy is still playing pretty technical.....I like the placements of the bass drum more and more from each cd.....I think it's getting better.

[Ynnad101]

Alright ppl, im new to the post so wut up.... in just gonna dive right into it. MP+DT i could not think of a better match, the guy can play in the sense that he connects with the music around him and knows how to enhance it. needless to say the chemistry that one cant help but notice... as to compare with any heavier bands and drummers, i wouldnt. since from my point of view what matters most is how you can complement the music and make it hole and portnoy's abilities do just that.

Personally DT was the door that introduced me to this world of complex technicalities and musical ingenuity in which portnoy forms a great part of. i admit that at first i thought he was the best thing in town!!! but that was cuz like i said i didnt know better, now that does not mean that im beginning to see his flaws, its just a process of education and evolution, and thats the beauty of it all.

To say that in some cases DT is a rip off, pretty much deminishes the idea of musical influence... portnoy's said many times how Peart was one of his greatest influences that does not make him a copy cat, sh.. portnoy's one of my biggest influences and ive used many of his concepts to broaden my abilities as a drummer... besides we see how many of the new styles of music that come out have a clear similarity to a style that already exist... its called evolution ppl. its a matter of taste i think. of course there are faster, smoother, or just plain sick drummers out there but what portnoy does is all in context of the music.
So.. anyways thats just my opinion right??lol

[finnhiggins]

To say that in some cases DT is a rip off, pretty much deminishes the idea of musical influence...

Not really. You can be influenced by something in an obvious way without ripping it off. The examples I was mentioning lifted key phrases or riffs from the source songs with little or no alteration. That doesn't really require much independent thought and it's pretty cheap. I'd mind less if they'd at least borrow from stuff that isn't in a similar genre - if they want to go grab a melody from A Love Supreme and turn it into a prog metal riff I'd maybe be more sympathetic to the idea that it's "influence" at work, but grabbing the bass line from another prog/metal song and moving one or two notes around a little bit is quite amateurish.

[aegir77]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.
i saw them too, wakled out after 6 songs, boring, he has no feelig when he plays
and portnoy's kit is too much for him, weckl, carey, chambers, beauford,agren and a lot more do greater things with a smaller kit...
he reaaaally does that thing 2xhand 2 xfeet too often...
his technique isn't great and as someone said earlier, he just pust 4/4 on different time signatures. Amateur drummers go " he's the best, he has a lotta details, and his technique, woahh" he has the strokin technique of grohl and he's so stiff, unlike beaufor
.once you get to know him you can catch the details real quick and they aren't really hard...
you should listen to dave weckl, those are details, or danny carey if you like rock music",
listen to them carefully, with headphones, and you'll realize in each song there are tons of details. tons of em..
mike's really good but for me he's one of those drummers who is now stuck.. the new record sounds just like the one before. and that one sounded like the one before...he hasn't shown anythin new

[Ynnad101]

mike's really good but for me he's one of those drummers who is now stuck.. the new record sounds just like the one before. and that one sounded like the one before...he hasn't shown anythin new

On that i agree just a bit... he should put an extra effort for the next record to expand his technique, and make it more challenging.

PS: if the quote didnt come out right... understand its my 2nd post. :p

[Pratt]

I think he´s being stuck by the path the band´s compositional involution is traceing, I mean, there are too many odd sigs, a lot of heavy riffs, cool ballads, but everything is so cliché...no wonder he doesent have anything else to do than repeat himself...(although I must recognize his efforts towards creativity)

oh, I forgot to mention all those predictables vocal lines...
its sad, but we have to admit that they´re going preety much the same way as metallica...downhill !!

ops, metallica has continuously increased their profits, so what´s good indeed?

[HeyMang]

WARNING: The following link is unsafe for work or school due to adult banners and advertisements.

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-awesomedrummingskills.html

:) pretty good vid, id say.

[sound zap]

I saw Mike in that awesome Tama video

[alienworkshop227]

I think Portnoy is a great drummer, his drumset is also very nice... he has some cool drum videos on here, look him up...

[Cuauhtemoc]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."

[CarterB_Junkie]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."

No.
Good Night.

P.S : What's make you more creative than Portnoy or Gadd ? Give me a break and be more positive towards drummers.Thank You.

[finnhiggins]

No.
Good Night.

P.S : What's make you more creative than Portnoy or Gadd ? Give me a break and be more positive towards drummers.Thank You.

What a useless post!

Let's review:

* State a contrary opinion
* Don't back it up with anything
* Launch an ad-hominem attack
* Include mandatory "Can you do better?" speil.

Why even bother? Your post has no content! You suggest that others should be more positive towards drummers, yet in the same breath rip into the creativity of the original poster without even having heard their playing. At least the rest of us have actually heard Portnoy play and can therefore comment on it with something other than empty posturing.

I agree with a lot of what was said in that post. I don't, personally, like Portnoy's playing very much. I think his technique is... err.. a little like swinging a hammer (just watch his snare backbeats!) and he really really over-uses the whole four with the hands/two with the feet business. I don't really find a lot of what he does all that creative, which I think was the initial point being made. That said, he's an astoundingly solid drummer and he's taken his career a very long way - there's a lot to respect there, and I'd be the last to ignore that. As would Cuauhtemoc, judging by his posting. He gives respect where it is due, then makes his point in a clear and positive manner.

And I think you missed the point of what he was saying about Steve Gadd. It's a little unclear in terms of the grammar, but he appears to be contrasting Gadd and Portnoy rather than suggesting they are in some way similar.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Hey finnhiggins, thanks for the defense. I obviously ruffled some feathers even when I thought that I gave MP props for his career and ability to be consistent. I guess some people won't allow others to be subjective and disagree with their point of view. I surely won't discuss religion or politics with this guy.

As far as me, I've been playing drums for 25 years, a local cat from Los Angeles. I've been gigging again as I stopped for a while to finish a Master's Degree, buy a house and become a father while trying to be a good husband to my wife. I don't recall ever saying that I was better than MP although I would say that our styles are quite different. If my critic wants to find something to rip on me he can go to www.audiostreet.net/carlossolorzano and hear some samples from the drumming CD that I released in 2002. It's multi-tracked original tribal drumming songs that I had a blast composing and recording.

Thanks again finnhiggins and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[DogBreath]

I have a huge amount of respect for Portnoy as a composer and performer, and I don't agree with some of what Cuauhtemoc posted, but I have no problem at all with him expressing his opinions in the respectful fashion that he did. Actually it was a perfect example of how to state one's opinion, and I hope that those few of you here who need to can learn to do the same. This is one of the better threads about a "controversial" drummer. I appreciate the thoughtfulness that has gone into some of these posts. You guys are the best, bar none, and it's you who make this place so great. Keep it up, guys.

And Cuauhtemoc, I'm going to check out that link of yours when I get a moment, probably tonight. I'm looking forward to it after your description. Sounds like my kind of stuff.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."


Props on the Iced Earth drummers. I'm listening to Dante's Inferno, it's an immense performance all round. I dislike Jon Schaffer's revolving door lineups however. Richard Christy was a great catch and his playing on Horror Show was truly excellent; pity most of the drums were made lifeless by the production.

As for our friend Mr. Portnoy, what can I say that hasn't already been said? I like the fact that opinion is divided over him. In my opinon he is a great drummer... although his solos are a little flat, his playing with bands is an excellent display of both simplicity and complication at the same time.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Dog Breath, you are the man. Nothing like a good conversation between adults.

And thanks for checking out my site. Hope you like it!

[NUTHA JASON]

well, i've remained quiet oin this thread out of ignorance but now i have had ample opportunity to watch his liquid dream theatre double dvd and i must say that everyone here is right.

in that
1) while he clearly borrows ideas a lot from other drummers (notably peart)
2) he does so in a clever powerful way.
3) he has great foot and hand speed and his time signature chopping and changing are a bit boggling.

he is also quite a cool guy. well spoken on the dvd, friendly and knowledgable. that whole take a drum to the audience and duet with random fans thing at the end of the disc shows that he is a great show man.

in my opinion we are just seeing the tip of the portnoy phenomenon. watch this space. think about it. i wonder what many drummers were saying about peart earlier in his carreer. i bet it wasn't all nice.

my respect to the man.
j

[DogBreath]

Perfectly stated, Jason.

[Zildjian232]

i really dont think of DT as a band ripping off rush, tool, etc. its a band coming in with there own sort of sound in a way. seperating themselves and there styles away from what 90% of bands are doing today. yes MP is greatly influenced by peart, but who here can say that they never played a song or made up a beat that had some certain aspect of your favorite drummer in there. john bonhams doubles and triplets and POWER, danny careys smooth technical ability, etc. we all pick up certain things. so saying that MP is a rip off doent make that much sense.



and i back up what jason said

[CarterB_Junkie]

Just a little correction on the current enormous Potnoy drumkit :

It is not One drumkit but Two that are glued together.

If you take each kit separately, they are not that big !

[Bassman]

If I might be able to interject a different point of view, one from the other half of a rhythm section.

There seems to be a lot of different points of view regarding his technique, technical prowess, and comparison to other drummers. I find this all to be fairly moot. Mike has never laid claim to being the best drummer, the fastest, the cleanest or the most complex. Those monikers were bestowed upon him by fans and fellow musicians. However everyone is a critic, everyone has opinions, and thats why people are here bagging on Mike on a forum as opposed to say.... touring Europe, Japan, putting on clinics, recording instructional DVD's, making tribute albums, collecting endorsement checks from Tama, Promark, Remo, and Sabian.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know the first thing about drumming technique but from a bassists perspective, he is the perfect compliment to a great progressive metal band. His playing is tasteful, it's diverse, fits the music to a T, and most of all TIGHT. His comprehension of time signatures is mind boggling. If you don't believe me, go listen to Take The Time off of Images & Words. There are over 22 time signature changes during the song, but you never feel it. Many bands who try to write like that fail miserably, the song sounds chunky and in shambles.

I love Dream Theater, but I'll be the first to say that Mike is no Neil Peart, Vinnie Colaiuta, or Stuart Copeland.

To close, I want to say I find it amusing that people bring up the "ripoff" topic in a thread devoted to a dummer. I will say that one of my largest issues with the band is they let their influences show too much when they write an album. Tool's 46&2 on Home, one that people may not catch is Solsbery Hill by Peter Gabrial on Solitary Shell off of Five Degree of Inner Turbulance.

[toteman2]

I think Mike is a fantastic drummer and deserves all the respect in the world for helping make drumming more popular...I know alot of people get on his case for using the 2/2, 2/4, 2/6, etc hand foot combos alot, but thats just his style...He makes it work for him and fits the music great, so why see it as a negative? thats just my opinion...

As far a chops go--I don't see Mike as a real "choppy" drummer...If you look at his parts, he never really plays anything more than singles, and the occasional double...Sure he is always "busy", but his rudiments never get too complicated...It's how he phrases, orchestrates, and works with odd time that sets him appart and makes him unique...I see a little of Neil in him, but every drummer has a little of someonelse in their playing...I think thats a good thing...

Long live Mike!!!!!!

That shrink and grow section of "Fatal Tragedy" makes my head hurt...

[DogBreath]

Amen, Bassman. Excellent post.

[Thinshells]

Bassman's post nails it. Mike is awesome. I cherish a lot of his work, my favorite is probably Train of Thought and LTE.

I am sick of the petty whining about "ripoff" Where is the line between "ripoff" and "inspiration?" Spastic Ink's 2000 cd sounds almost like Dream Theater. Who cares? It's a cool recording. Dream Theater unabashedly plays RUSH tunes during shows. A nod to one of the preceeding giants, not a ripoff.

Prog rock has a lot of common sounding paradigms and styles. But like other genre's, each drummer to his own.

Mike does some amazing things. I hope one day to master them all. If I could be 1/4 as successful as Mike, I'd be on cloud 9. He is a huge inspiration. I hope to be able to completly rip off his style one day.

And he has one of the greatest kits out there.

Check out my latest must have: Mike Portnoy's "DRUMAVARIUM" DVD

There is a clip of Mike on his mighty TAMA amber vistalite kit from Hammer of the Gods.

http://www.mikeportnoy.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=21

[Bassman]

People keep bringing up Mike's kit and I have to say something about it. Now, I love Mike but his kit, (The Siamese Monster) is a bit excessive. The only reason he has a kit that large is because he has the means acquire one.

Mike's best work (IMHO) is the work he did on Transatlantic. For the Transatlantic kit, he used a smaller (well, smaller for him) 8 piece kit and half the symbols of his current kit. I always find it fascinating to listen to amazing drummers who are used to large drum kits, get behind say a 4 piece or a 3 piece kit. I feel it really hones great creative thinking and improv and you learn to approach your playing from a whole different perspective.

This also correlates over to bass playing. I play a custom 6 string, but at the same time I have an old Sears Steinberger rip off that I only have 2 strings on (tuned E & G). You'd be amazed at how well you can play when you have less.

So for those of you with large drum kits, try taking a couple pieces off and playing. If you have a 5, take it to 3. Leave the snare, one rack tom, and bass drum. Sit down and play for an hour or two, you might scare yourself and actually like it.

[figure_02]

I pretty much agree with thinshells, imo Portnoy is an exellent drummer, and it was first when I bought the Liquid Drum Teather that I really got into drums, now I have a 7 pc Ayotte Custom kit, and I love playing the 2s/4s and 6 patterns :)

his kit: I was really disapointed when he started using the siamese monster, it was just to big, but I loved the Purple Monster, 9 pc kits are beautiful :D

[mikei]

Being a guitar player for nearly 20 years, I used to not appreciate MP. The drum tracks for DT didn't allow me to listen to the music with out it sounding off time and lacking normal structure. It sounded very mechanical. I didn't realize just how much talent it took until recently.

During my guitar days, I would listen to (and still do) to many of the shreading, technical guitarists of the 80's. Namely Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Steve Vai, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and many others.

People who were not musicians, specifically guitarists, could not truly understand the natural gifts that these people had to be able to play like that. I practiced for 20 years and still cannot even come close to those guys.

I took up drumming about 2 years ago after working with drum machines. Due to my understanding gained for the instrument while programming, it made sense to give it a try.

I do not play the guitar (except to goof around) any longer and now appreciate playing the drums. Therefore, I now am amazed by Portnoy. I have one of his instructional dvds and can watch it over and over. He is now my Yngwie and Paul Gilbert.

My friends who are not musicians do not care for DT at all. They just cannot get into it although they love heavy metal and hard rock. But my musician friends and brother, who has been studying Petrucci for 3 years, love them for what they are able to do. I now listen to them almost every day, and enjoy them thoroughly.

I know that I don't have the natural talent to be a great musician. It just isn't in my genes. I do enjoy learning what I can from the masters and trying to incorporate just a bit into my playing.

[kepplehall]

I really get a kick out of people who denounce MP and DT anytime they are given the chance, the only reason having to be sheer ignorance. I was the "obsessed MP fan" at one time, I really respect and admire the man, he is an inventive and intelligent player. I bought transcription books and all the actual studio videos and learned many many songs note for note and they are some of my favorite songs to play for fun, namely anything off of Awake or A Change Of Seasons. Lately I am not so much the die hard fan I once was, the latest album really let me down. I do think the kits can be a bit excessive, but I also know that playing on a larger kit is a lot of fun and opens up variety wise what you can express. The Siamese Monster is two kits, one smaller kit attached to the side of his more standard set up, he likes to use a smaller kit on some songs and the other kit on other songs, if I had the means to just have two kits on stage and go back and forth I would too. One reason I like being a drummer so much is that "most" other drummers are really nice and respectful of one another. There is tons of music out there that I wouldn't buy or listen to but I can at least respect what they achieved. If you compare the forums of drummers to guitarists you can see a drastic ego change, many guitarists are really harsh to one another like it is some kind of stupid race. Mike Portnoy may not be the technique titan that Thomas Lang is or the varied monster that Sean Reinert is or as fast as that crazy mofo from Theory In Practice and it is worhtless to compare any of them, but you know what, he is a damn good drummer and a hell of a nice guy, not to mention his instructional videos are right up there with Steve Smith's in being well done and being able to really get something out of it, I would certainly buy the man a beer.

[finnhiggins]

I really get a kick out of people who denounce MP and DT anytime they are given the chance, the only reason having to be sheer ignorance.

Oh, come off it. There's plenty of reasons to dislike either beyond ignorance - Portnoy's technique is pretty bizarre, his drum kit is excessive, and as for DT... well... yes. Men in leather pants making "one foot on the monitor" poses while shredding or singing lyrics like "As a child, I thought I could live without pain" about a quarter tone away from the right pitch. Enough said.

Portnoy is a very capable drummer and most of DT can play (LaBrie aside. Ugh) but they are way, way, way overrated by many young musicians. There are plenty of people playing harder, more original, more involved pieces of music out there with much better technique. They just don't get the same degree of worship that DT do.

[Thinshells]

Oh, come off it. There's plenty of reasons to dislike either beyond ignorance - Portnoy's technique is pretty bizarre, his drum kit is excessive, and as for DT... well... yes. Men in leather pants making "one foot on the monitor" poses while shredding or singing lyrics like "As a child, I thought I could live without pain" about a quarter tone away from the right pitch. Enough said.

Portnoy is a very capable drummer and most of DT can play (LaBrie aside. Ugh) but they are way, way, way overrated by many young musicians. There are plenty of people playing harder, more original, more involved pieces of music out there with much better technique. They just don't get the same degree of worship that DT do.

Not to mention, despite Mike's array of abilities, he has yet to put togeather a decent solo. I like Mike a lot, but his solos disappointment given what he is capable of. He defianately should not be stratified in all areas.

[kepplehall]

Hey I never said I worshipped him or that hes the best out there, come on, do not make an arguement out of nothing, I merely said he was a cool guy and a great drummer. I personally do not like DT for a lot of reasons, one major one being the singer, another being the really overused common themes from album to album (sick of hearing the words "glass prison") and another being the simplistic guitar riffs. And I agree that his solos are pretty lame, he has said himself that he does not even like doing them and often times he will include getting audience members on stage to interact during most his "solo" time. It is true there is a lot of people out there that do not get noticed that should who possess more striking abilities, but that is life, I know of a lot of obscure prog/death metal drummers that can do a wider variety of skills. Portnoy is great for drumming in general though, he has inspired a lot of people and I think that is great, I have run across many drummers that started playing because of or partly because of his influence. There are guys out there currently that I enjoy listening to more, for example Martin Lopez from Opeth, I have followed them since they began and have seen Martin's evolution since he joined on their 3rd album, their latest album Ghost Reveries has some brilliant drumming on it, but I will always respect Portnoy.

[Drumitup]

If u dont like LaBrie i suggest u listen 2 Liquid Tension Experiment no lyrics just music its pretty cool.


http://www.dailyvault.com/liquidtension_s-t.jpg

[giantantreal]

Hey I never said I worshipped him or that hes the best out there, come on, do not make an arguement out of nothing, I merely said he was a cool guy and a great drummer. I personally do not like DT for a lot of reasons, one major one being the singer, another being the really overused common themes from album to album (sick of hearing the words "glass prison") and another being the simplistic guitar riffs. And I agree that his solos are pretty lame, he has said himself that he does not even like doing them and often times he will include getting audience members on stage to interact during most his "solo" time. It is true there is a lot of people out there that do not get noticed that should who possess more striking abilities, but that is life, I know of a lot of obscure prog/death metal drummers that can do a wider variety of skills. Portnoy is great for drumming in general though, he has inspired a lot of people and I think that is great, I have run across many drummers that started playing because of or partly because of his influence. There are guys out there currently that I enjoy listening to more, for example Martin Lopez from Opeth, I have followed them since they began and have seen Martin's evolution since he joined on their 3rd album, their latest album Ghost Reveries has some brilliant drumming on it, but I will always respect Portnoy.

Very true...but he had a kit that is made fun of so much on the forums....he has turned into a joke.

[Thinshells]

Very true...but he had a kit that is made fun of so much on the forums....he has turned into a joke.

I find it amazing self centered, and envious of people who decide they are going to slam his kit, or any large kit for that matter. There are some folks that are serious kit-nazi's walking around. ARRRGHH!!!!! if it's bigger than two peice it's too big!!!! Arrggh!!! it's over 4-piece! It's totally useless!!! Arrrghh!!! That kit doesn't look like its set up exactly the way I want it to be!!!! Grrr....

I am glad Mike has that huge, almost surreal kit. It's like he is in his office...

http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/GRAPHICS/portnoyprimecuts.jpg

[zildjian_dude101]

Has anyone seen the the Dreamtheater- Live In Budakon DVD? The drum solo on it is amazing. Any ways, does neone know what kind of heads he's using on his toms? They sound awsome. Help?

[Peter North]

I'm pretty sure he's a clear pinstripe guy, at least during that time he was.

[Thinshells]

Clear pinstripes. That is an *AWESOME* DVD. BTW: there is already a Portnoy thread. Don't be surprised if this one is e-magically teleported into that thread.

[y0avz]

Personally, i dont go crazy over his solos, i dont find it to be very musical,no more than a showoff.
but thats just me (:

[Shutcory----->]

I agree y0avz...

But I consider Mike's a great drummer cause no one can make a composition like him.... Thats the reason he's one of the top drummers....
Too many drummers can have his technique and skills, but nobody can make music like mike, one of my instructors told me once: "You must focus on your music, you can be the best musician, but that isnt enought to make good music".

[jackothedrummer1]

Personally, Mike Portnoy to me is one of the most involved drummers in the drumming commmunity. He has actually sent me a signed photograph when I ordered his instructional DVD from his website because they shipped it too late for Christmas time. Super nice guy!

As for his kit, why does it matter what the size of ones kit is? He uses all of it on his kit (except the Crotales on his Purple Monster, which I agree shouldn't be there). The truth is, he wants multiple sounds, lots of variety. You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit. Personally, if I had someone to move and set my kit up for every show, I would do the exact same thing. Why would someone judge whether a drummer is a good/bad drummer by the size of his kit? That's just as bad as someone saying, "Oh, he has long hair, he must be a stoner/idiot/homosexual!" So what if his solos aren't the best, his song compositions are what I truly enjoy. I mean some drummers like T.B. from a certain punk band that really isn't that great, gets a lot of praise. I personally believe Mr. Portnoy to be a better player and song writer then this T.B. character who will remain unidentified by me....
EDIT (NOT Terry Bozzio)

There new album was disappointing.

[Thinshells]

Personally, Mike Portnoy to me is one of the most involved drummers in the drumming commmunity. He has actually sent me a signed photograph when I ordered his instructional DVD from his website because they shipped it too late for Christmas time. Super nice guy!

As for his kit, why does it matter what the size of ones kit is? He uses all of it on his kit (except the Crotales on his Purple Monster, which I agree shouldn't be there). The truth is, he wants multiple sounds, lots of variety. You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit. Personally, if I had someone to move and set my kit up for every show, I would do the exact same thing. Why would someone judge whether a drummer is a good/bad drummer by the size of his kit? That's just as bad as someone saying, "Oh, he has long hair, he must be a stoner/idiot/homosexual!" So what if his solos aren't the best, his song compositions are what I truly enjoy. I mean some drummers like T.B. from a certain punk band that really isn't that great, gets a lot of praise. I personally believe Mr. Portnoy to be a better player and song writer then this T.B. character who will remain unidentified by me....
EDIT (NOT Terry Bozzio)

There new album was disappointing.

1) My favorite DT album is Train of thought. Octavarium can't touch it IMO.

2) Mike, Neal, Nikko are a rare breed. Tthey use large kits and the look at home with them. I like that. 98% of the players out there use a 4-6pc kit. These guys operate thier own way.

[finnhiggins]

You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit.

The rest of your post was pretty reasonable, but not this bit. I'd argue there's plenty of drummers who've gone a lot further than Portnoy on a conventionally sized kit. A few examples that spring to mind:

* Buddy Rich
* Joe Morello
* Elvin Jones
* Tony Williams
* Joey Baron

etc.

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.

[Thinshells]

I just ordered the Drumavarium and Drums of thought dvd's. I really like Mike's "in the studio" videos.

[Thinshells]

The rest of your post was pretty reasonable, but not this bit. I'd argue there's plenty of drummers who've gone a lot further than Portnoy on a conventionally sized kit. A few examples that spring to mind:

* Buddy Rich
* Joe Morello
* Elvin Jones
* Tony Williams
* Joey Baron

etc.

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.

All of those guys nail solos that run rings around Mikes.

[zildjian_dude101]

still an amazing drummer, none the less. cant deny it

[ewanlaing]

I am glad Mike has that huge, almost surreal kit. It's like he is in his office...
i hear you. i use a four peice, but i have nothing but respect for guys who can master kits like that. and he MASTERS it. same with bozzio.

[Thinshells]

i hear you. i use a four peice, but i have nothing but respect for guys who can master kits like that. and he MASTERS it. same with bozzio.

I like watching his videos. The way he constructs his part. He makes playing all of that gear look easy.

[jackothedrummer1]

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.
Completely agreed. I simply meant by terms of timbre and variety. I mean you can only have so many sounds out of 4 drums and so many sounds out 3 cymbals (technically 4). I believe that as far as technical ability, those guys are absolutely incredible. I'll try to be more clear next time.

[evrard101]

I support this drummer for 5 years! I love him!
Lots of people (and drummer) critisize him. But He can play all styles of music!
He is an excellent showman!
I love Dream theater, because all albums are differents.
Before, his playing seems like Neil Peart, the drum solo of 1993 - with the drum solo of neil peart on YYZ on the live of "exit stage..left"
Mike show us that, we can play like a drummer, and we can be recognized.

[rendezvous_drummer]

The perfect drummer for Dream Theatre. I saw a video of his at a clinic in a dallas music store and it was phenominal. Would love to have a go at his kit indeed.

[GAZZASCOTLAND]

seen portnoy twice live now....he is a very good drummer,but....as far as the wierd and wonderful time sigs go,sure,it all sounds complicated and clever,which it is ti a certain extent but,if you are writning the stuff,rehearsing for months then recording it,you can come up with any configuration of time sigs....breaking some of his stuff down would be hard,of course it would....its like a crossword..u gotta get inside his way of thinking,but once you learn it,i wouldnt say its the most difficult drumming to copy...he has very fast feet which is an art from in its own right...there are good d/b players.and there are excellent d/b...i think portnoy comes into the the excellent double bass category,at least as far as speed is concerned...i once rehearsed with a band for 6 months,mainly writing...the guitarist was dream theatre crazy....we tried a lot of different time sigs,and believe it or not,once you know where the song is going,you can sound pretty technical..we showcased the set and a lot of people were asking how we knew where we were with the songs and stuff...easy!!! we wrote it and practised like demons......something proffessional musicians have on their side that we amateurs who work for a living dont have as much of.....so try it guys...get ur band together,come up with something weird and complicated and get you mates to listen...see if they find it easy to pick up....oh!1 one more thing....his speed on bass drum is also helped by playing at mass volume so less effort required...he is well miked up live....a very good drummer,but there are lots better

[Thinshells]

I received two MP dvd's:

Drums of Thought and Drumavarium.

Neither are instructional dvd's. Both are really cool drum-cam videos that show "the making of" albums. Mike even plays his amber Tama acrylic (Bonzo) kit.

It's funny to see Mike clean shaven with short hair. After years of long hair and goatee's like the wildman drummer, now he looks like "Bob " that you go bowling with.

I must admit, I like Train of thought and his drum dvd for that album *much* more than octavarium.

Both are entertaining, nonetheless with isolated drum-only tracks.

[candlemass]

He sure is a great drummer, but it's easier to grasp his playing because it's very mathematical, not so swingful like other drummers. His songs are VERY easy to tab down if you have a little patience.

I'm gonna see him tonight with Dream Theater! :D

[lfdy]

Well, let's just say there's a reason he received all of those awards by Modern Drummer :)...

He's just one of the best drummers out there on this moment.

I just recently started listening to Dream Theater and LTE, and he pulls some really nice stuff off in those bands.

Mike Portnoy rocks.

[Thunderfm]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

[lfdy]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

He never said he takes riffs from his idols, and then uses them directly in his work. He did however say that he gets a great deal of inspiration out of his idols, and what is wrong with that?

And yeah, Mike's drumming is sometimes really complex...but in some songs he just lays the groove down.

[Thinshells]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.
IOW: you don't like Mike because he's not exactly like the drummers that you do like. Makes sense. I think.
'
">Gasp!<... Mike needs to simplfy his playing to Meg White's level..no wait... Mike doesn't sound a thing like Zigaboo Modeliste. I know Zigaboo's style would be perfect for dream theater's music! Arggghhh.... no syncopated grooves to be found in 'metropolis' or 'as I am'.' grrr. Mike should be fired and replaced by Zigaboo or Stanton Moore..."

Psst... your POST is just glorified bashing...

[GAZZASCOTLAND]

i said before in this topic that portnoys playing is usually easy to break down once you have heard it a few times...as far as soloing goes,he is good but,nothing outstanding...just look at drummerworld video clips of solos....see weckl,gadd,vinnie,buddy etc...then look at mikes offering...different styles i know,but mikes is pretty boring after these guys...

[candlemass]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

Well, like it or not, he's a METAL DRUMMER. Dream Theater is a PROG METAL band, so you have said nothing.

Plus, there's a saying that goes "copying one is plagiarism; copying many is research". There's nothing wrong in taking inspiration from others.

[tintin]

i was a big fan of mike once. but then i guess i listed to dream theater just TOO MUCH!
it was obvious to point out mike style after awhile with that hand x2 feet x2 thing.
that was the first thing i practiced when i first got my double pedals. and. it took me like half an hour to play it as speeds as fast as the tracks that has those rolls.
it is clear that mike's playing has become kinda stale and more to the metal side. well duhh. he is the metal head among his band.

but i kinda like those little cute "clown walking over a tight rope" kind of tunes that dream theater likes to play once in awhile. it kinda makes things light and interesting apart from the other songs like "Panic Attack" from the latest album which is kinda a disppointment to me. hmm.. u can call it evolution or watever. personally i feel that. dream theater is losing that X factor it had years ago when it was playin albums like Images and Words.

u can to give mike some credit cuz those hand x2/ feet x2 rolls are pretty decent and clean. though.. many drummers can do it too. haha. well mike is an interesting drummer. but please, i suggest that u move on. i mean. don't just stick to mike. though he has pretty sweet chops and can play as if there are 2 drummers. i recently got the hang of symphony X and i find that the drummer plays much simpler stuff and allows the music to breathe. i think that's very important in music composition rather than dumping tons of demi-semi quaver rolls throughout 5min. i'm not saying that mike does this thing though.
of course. being a seasonal drummer. mike does know when to play this and when not to play that. but i guess.. sometimes he just gets carried away? =)

cheers. no offence to portnoy fans. i was one of u guys too! haha!

[Thinshells]

i was a big fan of mike once. but then i guess i listed to dream theater just TOO MUCH!
it was obvious to point out mike style after awhile with that hand x2 feet x2 thing.
that was the first thing i practiced when i first got my double pedals. and. it took me like half an hour to play it as speeds as fast as the tracks that has those rolls.
it is clear that mike's playing has become kinda stale and more to the metal side. well duhh. he is the metal head among his band.

but i kinda like those little cute "clown walking over a tight rope" kind of tunes that dream theater likes to play once in awhile. it kinda makes things light and interesting apart from the other songs like "Panic Attack" from the latest album which is kinda a disppointment to me. hmm.. u can call it evolution or watever. personally i feel that. dream theater is losing that X factor it had years ago when it was playin albums like Images and Words.

u can to give mike some credit cuz those hand x2/ feet x2 rolls are pretty decent and clean. though.. many drummers can do it too. haha. well mike is an interesting drummer. but please, i suggest that u move on. i mean. don't just stick to mike. though he has pretty sweet chops and can play as if there are 2 drummers. i recently got the hang of symphony X and i find that the drummer plays much simpler stuff and allows the music to breathe. i think that's very important in music composition rather than dumping tons of demi-semi quaver rolls throughout 5min. i'm not saying that mike does this thing though.
of course. being a seasonal drummer. mike does know when to play this and when not to play that. but i guess.. sometimes he just gets carried away? =)

cheers. no offence to portnoy fans. i was one of u guys too! haha!

I can buy your post more so than someone that just posts a thinly disguised...ok, blatently overt bashing. I understand why you'd get sick of Mike. I have never been impressed by his drum solos. But I have to look at his overall body of work.

DT,LTE, Transatlantic, OSI, yellow matter custard, Hammer of the Gods, Neil Morse, and so on.

[antvez]

I read all the titles and found nothing on him so here goes.

I love his technique. I used to listen to all the "normal" stuff till I heard him. And it seems all I want to listen to is Dream Theater now. I have played for awhile, and most drummers have certain niches, or habits. Once you figure out what they are doing you can play it. I usually can play a song the 2nd or 3rd time I hear it, But his stuff takes weeks, months on some of it, just to figure out the numbers behind what he is doing.What drives me crazy is most people( non-players) look at me like Im crazy when I start to try to explain what he is doing. They are like, man he screwed that up, and Im like, No he just dropped a beat, He'll pick it up in a minute.His drumming has texture, all the normal stuff is boring now. Can anyone tell me of a comparable band, with all the technicality of DT?What do you guys think of Mike? Sorry if this is a repost.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Mike_Portnoy.html

can anyone tell me the name of the song he is playing in that video with Dream Theater?

[lfdy]

Buy many cymbals and three bassdrums and then you have Portnoy in a nut shell.

I actually see him lots of times with 4 bass drums.

And you really shouldn't think that little of Portnoy :)

[Jalmar]

I actually see him lots of times with 4 bass drums.

And you really shouldn't think that little of Portnoy :)


Well, actually, I am only exaggerating this understatement, Portnoy knows how to play and I respect him for that. But even though, who needs three or four bassdrums?

[lfdy]

Well, actually, I am only exaggerating this understatement, Portnoy knows how to play and I respect him for that. But even though, who needs three or four bassdrums?

True...

But hey, if you get them for free :) Same for his cymbals...

[antvez]

anyone? the name of the song in the video?

[ewanlaing]

that song is called "hell's kitchen" i beleive. it was a rythm play along track.

[antvez]

cool, thanks! that last part part was stuck in my head all day.

[Robin]

Hey everybody. Here is a link to a video off Dream Theater when are jamming for their album Train Of Thought that was released in 2003. Cool stuff and you get see alot of Portnoy and he's also telling about the writing.

mms://wm.elektra.com/dream_theater_bonus/nyc_hi.wmv

[Tommy Lee is #1]

I was never impressed with him until I saw the solo at the drum clinic on drummer world. For once I was impressed.

[toteman2]

I was never impressed with him until I saw the solo at the drum clinic on drummer world. For once I was impressed.

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

[Stu_Strib]

I just borrowed a copy of Live at Budokhan. I'll be back soon with my take.

[Thinshells]

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

Neil Peart states on his new video "anatomy of a drum solo"

-Some drummers are not soloists. They express everything within the context of the music. Sometimes the solos are nothing more than a collection of dry rudiments. I always thought there were drummers that didn't need to solo, because they said everything already.

[lfdy]

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

Yeah, i fully agree.

I don't really like Portnoy solo's either, but i do like his playing in DT and LTE.

[Jalmar]

I must say that the opening fill to "Paradigm Shift" with Dream Theater is extremely creative and well played.

Even if he isn't my favourite drummer, he can still put up a few good fills.

[lfdy]

I must say that the opening fill to "Paradigm Shift" with Dream Theater is extremely creative and well played.

Even if he isn't my favourite drummer, he can still put up a few good fills.

Yeah, i like that fill a lot too...

[Stu_Strib]

I just borrowed a copy of Live at Budokhan. I'll be back soon with my take.
(quoting myself aside)

Yeah so I watched Live at Budokhan and I have to say...

Pretty damned impressive.

The usual Portnoy nitpicks didn't really bother me. So what if he uses the hand hand foot foot fill too much, and so what if he stands up and points, and spins sticks, and overplays from time to time? His time and pocket was impeccable. He actually made the normally mechanical sounding "metal" bits sound musical. Killer drum sound too.

I didn't know he sang too!

[zildjian_dude101]

Someone with similar technique as Mike is probably Neal Peart or the Rev from Avenged Sevenfold. Both bands play prog.

[lfdy]

Yeah, he sings...

I've only seen him doing it on 'Fatal Tragedy' though...

[zildjian_dude101]

He sings in a lot of songs. More in their newer stuff than in their older stuff. For example, As I Am, The Test That Stumped Them All, and In the Name of God, to name a few.

[lfdy]

He sings in a lot of songs. More in their newer stuff than in their older stuff. For example, As I Am, The Test That Stumped Them All, and In the Name of God, to name a few.

Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.

[DTportnoyDT]

Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.

He also sings in New Mellinnium, Home, and Lines in the Sand, to name a few.

[tymile]

i, as well, expected more positive feedback on mike portnoy.

dream theater as a whole definitely does have an amazing amount of talent (with the exception of the singer). i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.

dream theater does not rip off rush. there may be one or two songs that sound alike, or whatever, but, as a whole, it cant be said that dream theater rips off rush. when was the last time rush did an overture? and a honky-tonk breakdown? ive heard it said many times that neal peart is one of the only people who could outplay mike portnoy. he cant. mike portnoy could play rush songs, but i cant imagine peart playing DT songs. and dream theater as a whole has a much better sound, and is way more technical. (with the exception of the singers... both of which could... use work?)

and, i completely agree with whats posted above me, with the exception of the statement: "I guess Peart is a much better musician, but Mike is a better drummer." Mike is a better drummer. however, he is also the better musician. mike portnoy writes at least half of the lyrics and a third of the music on all of the dream theater albums. he also plays with neal morse, transatlantic, and liquid tension experiment. aside from that, in many DT songs they blend so many different types and styles of music. mike portnoy is an incredibly diverse drummer, and can play a variety of styles without a problem.

peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential, but portnoy tops him.

[finnhiggins]

i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.


Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.


dream theater does not rip off rush.


They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)


peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential

I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.

[tymile]

i can see where youre coming from. a lot of people dont like the whole technical idea and are much more into the groove of it. but i think that portnoy definitely is a more technical drummer than peart, whether you think technical outweighs the passion and the feel of the music, i think thats a matter of personal choice.

as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.

and i agree that mike portnoy takes influence from neal peart. but that doesnt mean that he cant be a better drummer than him. but, again, that comes down to personal choice - which style appeals more personally to you.

and i guess saying neal peart had "potential" was misused. what i meant was he had a lot of talent, but mike portnoy is still better.

[King Crimson]

Portnoy is really good.

But he will never equal the popularity that Neil has.

[finnhiggins]

as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.


You've got your dates a bit wrong with RATM, IIRC their first album was out in 1991 which put them working together as a group well earlier than that.

But that's a bit beside the point. You've never heard anything that sounds like a Tool or Pantera ripoff?

Oh boy have I got an MP3 for you...
(http://www.setcreative.com/content/media/dreamtheater-borrowing-bits.mp3)
What you hear in this is:

"By Demons Be Driven" by Pantera vs "The Test That Stumped Them All" by DT
"46&2" by Tool vs "Home" by DT.
"46&2" by Tool (again!) vs "The Great Debate" by DT.

There's more, of course. The clip from "Home" is shortly followed by a fairly obvious RATM crib, etc. But this goes for a minute and a half, which seems about long enough.

Worth mentioning is that not only are these cribs very similar in terms of actual notes and phrasing, they're also very similar in their purpose and positions in the songs. "By Demons Be Driven" has the chorus riff stolen for a chorus, "Home" uses the intro bass line from 46&2 for its intro bass line, "The Great Debate" uses a strikingly similar section to the one in "46&2" for a similar purpose at a similar position structurally.

[OllieM]

joe morris, all i can say about u is your a mug!!! HOW CAN U WALK OUT OF A DT CONCERT GOD DAMMIT!!! i saw them last october, i then triued to get tickets for the second night but failed :( anyways mike portnoy is true talent, anyone who takes digs at his kits are stupid, because if u look at the new albino monster, i will see its actually quite simple... on one side 3 toms, 2 floors, 2 bass, 1 snare (octoban and timbales) and some other goodies. on the other he has 1 tom 1 bass 2 floors!!! no octobans, no gong bass... take a look at this...

http://www.tama.com/artists/featured/portnoy.asp

[OllieM]

Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.



They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)



I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.

well u dont no much, they havent ripped of any band...

they make the same kind of music, and portnoy has recreated the old, which the younger generation havnt heard much of, and brought it to them, think of it as covering up old music by making it sound new, if it wasnt for dt i wouldnt never of nown about rush or tool... BUT one thing that we can all be sure about it, that dt are better than tool and ratm because there still together!!!!

[Stu_Strib]

Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.

The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.

Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".

Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.

I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?

I watched Budokhan again and found yet another thing impressive about Portnoy. I would encourage all aspiring metal wannabees to watch how he plays his cymbals. He doesn't bash them in with huge strokes, yet they are still loud and powerful sounding. hmmmm, I wonder how many cymbals Mike breaks, and what his opinion is about "hard hitters".

[finnhiggins]

Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.


Are you kidding? There's no fewer ways of playing rock in 7/8 (the case for most of the stuff here) than in 4/4. Not only that, even if there was then there's a limitation on how you can phrase there's still no excuse for basically playing the same parts. Which is happening in all of these examples. When Tom Morello swiped a bit of "Walk This Way" on the first Audioslave album I seriously doubt that anybody would say "Oh, he's limited by the fact that he's playing in 4/4 so he had to make a riff using the same notes in a very similar order and rhythm". They said "Hey, that's Walk This Way!".

EDIT: Also, most of those aren't actually in the same time sig as the original, or if they are it's 4/4. "The test that stumped them all" is in 7+7+6 while the Pantera track is in 4/4, both the bass riffs are 4/4, and the other 46&2 crib is in 4/4 as well. No excuse there!


The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.


Or it would, if every album I've listened to so far didn't have a lot of very obvious cribs from albums that members of DT regularly reference as influences. Portnoy has referenced Pantera and Tool as influences in a number of interviews, and talked about them in some depth. I doubt he's unfamiliar with the songs in question here, given that they're two albums that are considered by many to be the creative apex of each of the given bands...


Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".


No way. That's not an "indian sounding" riff, that's a Tool-sounding riff. If you can find me an Indian song that sounds like that I'll be very surprised, I listen to quite a lot of Indian and Middle Eastern music and am usually pretty capable of telling a riff in a given genre apart from another one. Not only that, both riffs are played on the same instrument (bass) in a similar neck position (up near the 12th fret) and are used for the same purpose in the song (intro).

As for the coincidence idea.. I'd maybe buy that, if these kind of things didn't keep turning up. For crying out loud, there's two cribs from the same song (46&2) off one of Mike Portnoy's favourite albums (Aenima). I don't think Portnoy would hear those bits and not think of Tool, given that he clearly loves the album (read some interviews), the DT stuff came out subsequent to that album and they sound nearly exactly alike. If somebody in my band played a riff like that I'd say "That's a Tool rip-off!". You think I know that album better than Mike does?

That's not saying that Tool are fantastically original and DT are clearly slavish imitations. I can show you a similar example of Tool ripping off Rush (intro to Lateralus = swung version of bridge from Test For Echo on guitar) but they do it considerably less regularly and in a much less obvious manner. They don't, for example, grab whole sections of songs, change a couple of notes and then use them for the same function in their own song.

The worst DT offender yet is that one from "The Great Debate" which not only borrows phrasing but also vocal inflections (I can virtually hear Maynard James Keenan singing "Life-to-save-life" like that, and it's not a very typical vocal approach for James LaBrie) and even structure - they use a riff under the vocals in a similar way, then punch it out staccato into a stop. The whole song is very Tool-influenced, but that bit is just directly lifted.


Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.


We'll have to disagree on this point. I think the DT versions sound like cheesy prog nonsense while the originals are actually quite good. But which you like better is a bit beside the point, they're clearly grabbing whole chunks of stuff. If they want to play covers, why don't they play covers?


I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?


That was just in response to the suggestion that DT are "Bringing music like that to the masses". It's arguable that DT bring a lot less of that kind of music to the masses given that Tool's last album entered at #1 in the charts and DT's was what... #42 or something?

No other argument. It just seemed like a silly idea. "Oh yeah, that #42 album was totally bringing one of the better known songs from that other multi-platinum album to the masses, and stuff".

[Stu_Strib]

Actual time signatures aside, any odd meters and phrasing generally sound homogenous to me on these prog rock albums.

As for the Indian stuff. It probably isn't anywhere near authentic. It is more likely what Tool, DT, and the West in general THINKS indian music sounds like.

Coincidentally, Tool's logo is written with Arabic script, but it says "lamamel" in Arabic. To the untrained, it looks all middle-easterny though. That's my point about the Indian stuff.

I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?

[finnhiggins]

I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?

They're quite open about being inspired by both bands, actually. Go have a read of some old Portnoy interviews.

What do you find harder to believe - that DT would be comfortable doing the occasional quote of other band's stuff or that they would be oblivious to the fact that they're lifting whole sections from some of their favourite albums?

EDIT: Oh, and given that Tool are about the nearest thing out there to popular 70s-style prog (along with The Mars Volta) I'd be quite surprised if DT weren't into them. DT sound like an 80s prog band, Tool sound like a 70s prog band mixed up with The Melvins.

[Stu_Strib]

I guess I can't see it objectively, because I really can't get into Tool at all (forced myself to listen to every LP and EP). I can ALMOST get into Dream Theater, until after the 20th minute of the second song, when they've already played every lick 3 times already. My brother loves them. I think he's lack of musical knowledge gives him a false sense of 'awesomeness' about them (that goes for any Prog band really).

Good analogy about 70s prog vs. 80s prog.

One thing for sure, Prog folks need to work on their vocals.

[DTportnoyDT]

I honestly don't know why people argue about these things. It's a matter of opinion, and it's darn near impossible to change someone's opinion. Give it a rest.

As for my opinion, I see it as: there are so many bands and so many songs out there, someone's bound to copy someone else by complete accident. The fact that DT is influenced by many types of music and plays such a wide variety only increases their chance of these accidental copies.

My 2 cents

[tymile]

exactly.

and to not respect a band, or any of the members of that band, because their music seems similar to that of another band, is rediculous.

dt portnoy is completely right.

[Stu_Strib]

Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).

[finnhiggins]

Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).

DT hasn't been around for "So much longer" than most of these bands. DT had their first album out in... what... 88? 89? Pantera had albums out around that time, albeit hair-metal. Tool's first EP came out in '92, and they hit it big in '94. DT's first notable album (Images & Words) was what... 91? There's 3-4 years in it, tops.

As for the idea that an older band can't possibly be influenced by newer acts, how do you explain Miles Davis? He was already a legend fully decades before his interest in rock music drove him to start playing fusion in the late 60s. A key influence in this was Hendrix, who was clearly a considerably younger act than Miles. Similarly, Radiohead made a notable move towards playing electronic music mid-career, influenced by the likes of Aphex Twin. ?uestlove talks openly about how the programming on The Pharcyde's "Labcabincalifornia" made him revamp his entire style - after The Roots had already hit it big. DT clearly did make mid-career shift at several points in different directions. Their early material was much more Rush/Queensrych oriented, but with Awake they added more elements of 90s metal. Post 1996 they've started sounding more like Tool on a number of occasions.

Denying people the right to be influenced by the music they hear just because they're famous is a bit silly, don't you think? The Stones/Hives comparison is silly because the Hives are trying to sound like the Stones were some forty years ago. DT only started recording stuff that sounded very similar to Tool well after Tool had released multi-platinum albums.

I don't see why everybody is so touchy about this particular point. Portnoy is, as a player, very open about his influences and all of these bands are on the list. Do you want me to find quotes? If somebody cites Miles Davis as an influence and then uses the bass line from "So What" in a song do you consider it an accident?

[tymile]

so, are you saying, that just because a band doesnt play the same exact style in every single song and album (which almosts defeats the idea of prog already) they have become influenced by newer bands?

so, because dream theater made a shift, they were seddenly copying tool? youre saying that every time they took a turn in direction in their type of music, it had to be because they were "copying" another band.

sorry.

no two of dream theaters album have the same sound. each is such a blend and mix of styles that it would be hard to classify it as just one genre. and your comment about awake being "affected by 90s metal."

awake was put out in the nineties. go figure.

and, as stu strib said earlier, the fact that tool came out so much later than drea, theater (and three to four years is a lot of time) can so act as proof that dream theater did not copy them. when an already big band hears this up and coming band's brand new debut cd, rarely will they go try and copy it.

what do you think, mike portnoy and john petrucci were sitting around one day, listening to the brand new tool album, and mike goes, "hey! these tool kids are pretty good. lets blatantly copy them because we only have an unsurpassed amount of talent and have come up with plenty of completely original material ourselves. hell, we have another decade at least worth of original material, and we can outplay most bands around. so, we MUST COPY TOOL."

sorry, thats not the way it works. from the sounds of it, tool takes an amazing amount of inluence and idea from dream theater.

the fact is, two bands can sound alike. almost flawlessly alike. it doesnt have to mean that one copied the other. especially on a level with dream theater.

[DTportnoyDT]

Something just popped into my head.

Now, I'm not saying that Dream Theater did copy any body, but even if they were to copy someone, who cares?!? It's perfectly legal to copy other bands. Just look at the millions of cover songs out there. And like I said before, it's easy to copy by accident. Particularly if you have certain influences (Every band has their influences, no one grew up and decided to play music without listening to any music first). If you have influences, it's easier to copy without even realizing it because that's what you grew up listening to and it's something that you like.

For example, I am influenced by (among many others) Megadeth and Dream Theater, but that doesn't mean that if I decide to play a cool tom groove, I must be copying Megadeth's "Trust" and Dream Theater's "Home" or "Metropolis Pt. 1". It just means that I like that style and want to use it in my song. If it happens to be too much like one of the aforementioned songs, then oh well...who cares?

I just don't see the point in arguing about this. If you insist that Dream Theater are talentless copy-cats, you have all the right in the world to think that.
If you insist that they are all original, you have equally as much right to think that. Both are a matter of opinion, and if you're hell-bent on trying to change people's opinions, I got one thing to say to you: Good Luck, because it's impossible.

There's 2 cents more for you.

[finnhiggins]

and, as stu strib said earlier, the fact that tool came out so much later than drea, theater (and three to four years is a lot of time) can so act as proof that dream theater did not copy them. when an already big band hears this up and coming band's brand new debut cd, rarely will they go try and copy it.


It happens, regularly. I cited several examples in my reply to Stu. It is less common with bands like, say, The White Stripes. Mostly because they form because they want to play a certain style of music, and they're not that open to change. However in jazz and progressive genres it's extremely common. Yes changed their style in the 80s to align more with current musical trends started by other bands. So did King Crimson. This is also true of most of the virtuoso shred guitarists that I'm sure Petrucci is a fan of, too. And Frank Zappa, who Portnoy is a big fan of.


what do you think, mike portnoy and john petrucci were sitting around one day, listening to the brand new tool album, and mike goes, "hey! these tool kids are pretty good. lets blatantly copy them because we only have an unsurpassed amount of talent and have come up with plenty of completely original material ourselves. hell, we have another decade at least worth of original material, and we can outplay most bands around. so, we MUST COPY TOOL."


No, I think they were jamming in a practice room one day, maybe they had a little riff on 46&2 and some interesting melodies developed over the top of it. They had a chat about it and decided that they didn't have a problem with the similarity. Or that they were looking for a chorus for a song and somebody said "Hey, what we need here is a staccato feel like on By Demons Be Driven" and they busted one out quickly, liked it and wrote it down. Maybe later they noticed how remarkably similar that section was, but I reckon they either consider it a homage or just liked it enough to make the borrowing justified.

I've been in bands that have done this with things. It's not neccesarily a bad thing, indeed it can actually be pretty awesome if you do it with something from outside your genre. There's a bit of Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" where one of the riffs is a dead ringer rhythmically for the head melody of "Ravayah" by John Zorn. Not a rhythm I've heard anywhere else, personally, and there's other parts of the Thordendal album that appear quite Zorn influenced. Could be accidental, but it's cool even if it's deliberate because one song is an avant-garde klezmer/jazz piece and the other is progressive death metal. Mixing and quoting is perfectly acceptable, if done well.

I just don't like the way that DT borrow pieces from bands in a similar genre and use them with similar inflections, on the same instruments, in similar places in their songs. That just strikes me as a bridge too far. There's paying homage, there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place.

But to deny that they're borrowing sections of music at all? Come off it mate. Everybody does it. Particularly muso people who play a lot of solos - it's called "quoting". The difference is, most people try to modify things enough that it's not immediately obvious if you're familiar with the source. It took me a while to peg the swiped riff from Test For Echo by Rush in the intro to Lateralus by Tool for a couple of reasons:

1) Swung rather than straight.
2) The tone is different
3) The tempo is a bit different.
4) The purpose in the song is very different (intro, rather than bridge).

That's still a pretty blatent bit of borrowing, but DT don't seem to want to obfuscate even that far.


sorry, thats not the way it works. from the sounds of it, tool takes an amazing amount of inluence and idea from dream theater.


Now that I doubt.

Ok fact time.

Fact: If you read interviews, Portnoy has repeatedly cited Tool as an influence. Ditto Pantera.

Fact: If you read interviews, not one member of Tool even describes a passing enjoyment of Dream Theater. In fact, there's numerous references out of Adam Jones to hating technical guitar virtuosos, which would suggest that he's not much of a fan. Danny Carey has listed a bunch of contemporary drummers of whom he's a fan, including guys like Sim Cain and Fish (of Fishbone fame). Portnoy isn't on the list.

Fact: After Tool released Aenima, Dream Theater released two songs which use near identical sounding sections from 46&2 (see MP3) below. I have heard no other songs written prior to the Tool song which have anything like as close a resemblance.

Fact: Most other technical bands do not see the same "Accidental" occurrance of similar phrases from other bands in the same genre. See: Fredrik Thordendal. His stuff sounds like him. Ditto Opeth. Ditto Death. Ditto Strapping Young Lad. Dream Theater's stuff sounds like other people, regularly. For crying out loud, there's a song on "Six degrees" which is a dead ringer for a very well-known Peter Gabriel song. I'll give you five points if you can name both songs.

If you can't see a pattern here then I'd suggest it's because you're blinded by admiration rather than because of the absence of one.

[tymile]

in response to dt portnoy - i know that its perfectly legal to blatantly rip off another band, but its really lame. it shows no taste and says you cant think of ideas for yourself. covers are one thing, but passing off someone elses musical ideas as your own is just really low. thats why this subject is so touchy and heated.

finnighans - first things first, i admire how youre so knowledgeable about every subject that has been mentioned in this conversation. i think you know a rediculous amount about music and bands, and it pays off.

but, as dt portnoy said before, it is a matter of opinion. i dont think theres any way to know for sure which band copied which, or which band insipred which part of what song. think it could be difficult for the members of each band to answer that question before. dt portnoy said earlier that, possibly, a band could be inspired by another, and therefore could end up playing their styles subconsciously, and end up with something near the same end result.

for instance... and the greatest instance i know of this.

symphony x blatantly copies dream theater. its rediculous. the song "pharoah" by symphony x has a bass solo while all the other instrumentalists are playing a weird synchronized stacatto melody. this is EXACTLY like the breakdown in metropolis pt. 1. also, symphony x has copied song names, and even musical structural ideas, like you mentioned before.

now, the reason i used this as an instance, is because, theres no way to tell wether the reason so many things sound so similar is because they ripped the idea off or they were so heavily inspired that many of the ideas in their head came out sounding like their insiration. although they all say that dream theater is one of their biggest inspirations, it is still uncertain wether it was blatantly copied, or just subconcious. however i do feel that similarity in that much quantity and of that degree cant be completely unintentional.

the same goes for dream theater and tool. although dream theater came first, it is not completely unreasonable to feel that maybe dream theater may have copied ideas from tool. however, it is a matter of opinion when it comes to th e question inspiration vs. the stealing of ideas.

theres no real way to be sure.

[Drumitup]

Back on to the subject of bands ripping off other bands i recently read quote by Buddy Rich ( I think) well anyways it said
"The best musicians are thieves who don't get caught"

[DTportnoyDT]

OK, this is getting rediculous. First of all, this post is not meant to be a bashing post, but I can't gurantee it won't turn into one.

OK, here we go:
First, if "theres no real way to be sure," then why don't you give it a rest? You can hate DT all you want, that's fine by me. But please save it for a DT bashing thread or something, not this thread which is supposed to be for positive input.

Second, even if DT does copy people, they are still one of the most original bands I have ever heard.

Third, the only bashing here is not by CarterB. Right now, it's by all of us (yes, me too). I just don't see how you can come into this thread and profess about how (and I quote) "lame" DT is and not consider it bashing.

Next, "there's putting your own spin on things and then there's the kind of stuff that DT do all over the place." I really think "all over the place" is going too far.

Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)

[finnhiggins]

Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands.
(OK, that was harsh, but my point is, you have your opinion. Why do feel the need to try to change other's. You've made your point, and no opinions have been changed. Put a sock in it.)

Eh, I don't need to research - it comes knocking. I teach drums, and if you teach drums you'll learn a lot of things from your students:

1) Travis barker is, like, totally the best drummer on the planet.
2) No, Joey Jordison is.
3) No, it's Mike Portnoy.

As such I've heard a fair bit of all three. Oh, Danny Carey goes on the list too, but I actually like Tool. Anyway, back to the list above. I've owned albums with all of them on, because I have people who pay me who want to know more about what these guys are doing. It's hard to teach something you don't know about, so I listen, learn and work out how to teach it back to people.

Portnoy is, BTW, a very capable drummer. I won't dispute that. But that's not the issue, so I don't really feel there's any major bashing going on here.

Along the way I've run into a whole lot of things that sound, to my ears, exactly like other pieces of music released before the songs in question. I don't really like that. To me, music is like writing. If you write an article that IS another person's article (sell somebody elses work as your own) then you get sued for copyright infringement. If you take somebody elses article and generally re-write it in your own words while clipping the odd paragraph here and there out and making minor changes you get into trouble for plagiarism, which is not the same but still seriously frowned upon.

But if you read an article by somebody else, reflect on it, do some more research and then write a piece on the same subject? No problem. Happens every day. So I don't have a problem with reworking, extending or being inspired by another person's work, but I do feel that sometimes DT do cross the plagiarism line. Only just. But still.

And ultimately, where's the problem in disagreement in a discussion? We could have a thread where everybody just shows up and says "Hey, what about that Portnoy guy, eh? Awesome" and then goes away, or we could have some conflict but actually have a conversation on the subject. As long as everybody stays at least moderately civil we should be fine. I did get the claws out a bit down the thread, but you'll note they're away now and I'm doing my best to argue from an informed position rather than just saying "DT SUX HA!".

[DTportnoyDT]

I must say that you make some very good points here, finn. I agree that in writing and such, plagiarism is not welcomed, but this isn't writing. Sure, you're writing music, but that's way different than writing a book or newspaper article. Everybody takes influence from someone somewhere along the way, and that usually means that you are going to use some rhythms from your idols. Even if you fully intend to borrow the rhythms, I don't consider that to be a bad thing. The quote of Buddy above couldn't be more true, in my eyes.

As an example, look at Metallica. They are one of the founders of Metal as we know it today. They're highly origional and highly respected (by many people, but they have their enimies), and they made an entire 2-CD album consisting of nothing but other people's work. Using someone's idea is simply a way of showing respect and showing that you like that particular idea. If someone used my idea, I would take that as a great compliment.

And even if DT does copy heavily, they have many more songs and ideas that were all their own.

[tymile]

now, as is probably already well known, i am a huge DT fan. and even more so for mike portnoy. but i need to stop a second to reflect because of what dt portnoy said.

naturally as a dt fan, im on your side. it seems me and dt portnoy are allies in this conversation. but i disagree with his second latest post.

as you well know, ive havent been bashing at all, and ive just been defending DT and having one hell of a debate with finn.

i started out against finn because he seemed so pitted against mike portnoy and dt and had so many bad things to say about them. i started out way against finn. but ive learned that he knows what hes talking about... its his job. as ive said before.... he knows his stuff.

that said....
"Lastly, I can't get over how much research and effort you put into your DT bashing. I simply must give you applause. It's always been my dream to become a loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands."
i dont think that finn is "bashing." hes using his vast knowledge (as sarcastic as that sounds) to bring up points. as much as i disagree with the points he brings up, i still very much respect him and the way hes so educated on the subject. any point he brings up has enough evidence that it can be justified... and its not some supid unjustified statement, like.... OMGOMG PORTNOY SUXZZz LOL!!2111!!1 he obviously knows way more than his share about music. and that by no means makes him a "loser with nothing better to do than rip on bands"

but dont worry dt portnoy: im still on your side.

me and dt portnoy still think mike portnoy and dream theater are completely original and own tool by far.

i think i can speak for the both of us when i say that in our opinion (and thousands others) dream theater is one of the most original and talented bands of all time. and theres been no opinion changing here. dream theater still owns.

[DTportnoyDT]

Yeah, the whole "loser with nothing better to do..." was going overboard. Finn, as I have said, does make some very good points, and is very highly educated on the matter. But I still don't get why we are still going on about this. I could argue my case forever (sure, I'd end up losing), and no matter what I said, I would never change anyone's mind. The same goes for arguing against me, my opinion will never change. We've all made our points, and I know what finn is saying, I just don't agree with him, and I don't think that opinion will ever change.

P.S. Sorry again for the loser comment. That was a bit harsh.

[Stu_Strib]

Well now that I caught back up, I'd like to reiterate my main point; Dream Theater came first and there really isn't anything like them. Yeah I know the 80s had King Crimson and Rush and others, but Dream Theater is like the next generation of Proggers after the 70s and 80s stuff. Tool is a watered down, more radio friendly version, so what? But saying Tool is the icon and Dream Theater takes all their cues from Tool is silly.

Dream Theater was formed in 1985. Tool was formed in 1990. Yeah its only 5 years, but those 5 years are some of the most drastic changes in music during my lifetime (1969-present). For example, music in 1995 isn't that much different than 2005, but in 1985 it was WAAAAAAY different than in 1990. The gap is even bigger if you take into consideration their respective first releases. Dream Theater's first major project was in 1986 and Tool's was in 1993. That qualifies as different generations of musicians in my book.

The point is Dream Theater and Tool come from two different eras.

Finn doesn't like DT and loves Tool. I don't really care for either, but at least I can tell which of the bands grew up watching the other band (hint, the answer is Tool).

Yes, I'm talking symantics here. Yes Portnoy tips his hat to Tool and Pantera. Somehow I think that is more of Portnoy's effort to be humble than any music-worshiping.

I'll say it again...that type of music has a finite amount of cliches and sounds, so of course there are going to be lots of similar riffs, blatant ripoffs (hey, if it works), and so on.

I would bet that 50s hard boppers all had the same arguments, "quoting" as Finn called it. I wonder if Dexter Gordon was ever considered a rip off of Coltrane?

[DTportnoyDT]

Oh, one more thing. You guys would make good lawyers. =)

[IronCobraPTW]

for all you people who dont like portnoy yea you can say you dont like him because of his music but dont even try to rip on his drum playing. he is an incredible drum player and if you think you can do it then why arent you famous already

and to answer the question for some insane drum playing you have got to listen to led zepplin(bonham) Rush(Peart) and slipknot (Jordison) and just watch buddy rich and denis chambers play theyre amazing..

[tambian89]

I dont experiment much with music. The tastes of most are weird to me. Are there any other drummers, who can actually play like him? Im talking about the stuff where his feet are playing 3-4 time, and he cymbal crashes on 4-4 time, or where he plays in a 4-4 time while the band plays in a 3-4 or 6-8. His timing is superb if you ask me. And he's a triple threat. Clean, Fast, and Technical. I know Rush has played weird time sigs before, but its like these guys could care less about a time sig. If the words require a 5-8 in the first measure and a 3-4 or 7-8 in the next, so be it.I think its borderline genious. Any one else play like that, if so who?

DrummerDad has a point. Danny Carey may be able to do what Portnoy does, but Portnoy is one of the first of his kind. Peart layed down some of this style in the 80's with Rush, but Portnoy picks up from there. Images and Words has some of the best drumming I've ever heard. Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre. Tool is not as progressive ; Danny Carey's drumming fits more into the alternative metal of Tool, not progressive. Carey is still a very good drummer, no doubt, but I firmly believe Portnoy is better.

[tambian89]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

His playing is intense and awesome there too, but its just not my gig.



See? Stu respects him, even though he doesn't like progressive rock (even though Dream Theater goes further into other styles). Portnoy deserves respect. Many people also neglec the fact the Portnoy is mainly self-taught (he did take a music theory class and attend Berkley College though)
- Marc

[tambian89]

After reading some of these comments as well as some of the comments on Peart's Thread and Buddy Rich's thread, it's pretty shocking of what's going on. I expected everyone to be bowing down like these people were gods....people bashed on all three of them!

Yes, you may not like these drummers, but sometimes you should just respect them for their skill.

[finnhiggins]

Portnoy's Polyrhythms and Hemiolas are unparalleled in his genre.

Dunno about that. I'll put Morgen Agren and Thomas Haake on the table for discussion here, both for their work with Fredrik Thordendal.

Also, I think people credit DT and Portnoy with far too much. Neither of them are doing anything seriously new in a big way. Neither are Tool, who also get too much credit for their mish-mash of the Melvins and King Crimson. Both Danny Carey and Mike Portnoy work off a lot of the same sources, Carey is an amalgamation of 70s prog and fusion drummers (Bill Bruford, Billy Cobham, Alan White etc) with more stripped-back rock and alt-rock players (John Bonham, Sim Cain from Rollins Band etc). Portnoy is more of a stylistic decendant of 80s prog drummers (Neil Peart, notably) and heavy metal players (Lars Ulrich, Vinnie Paul etc).

Naturally that leaves their styles sounding a bit different, but that doesn't make Portnoy's approach to progressive playing "better" or more serious. Personally I prefer Danny Carey's approach, I find it a lot more musical and a lot less obvious. But that's just me. I don't think there's any objective criteria you can point to that makes either of them better than the other.

[Robin]

While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!

[Robin]

You guys should watch this video of DT working on their album "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" from 2002. This video shows that MP really is a freak! hahaha

http://www.jasonwoliner.com/misc/portnoy_video.mov

[HiTMaN]

Wow, who would of thought Portnoy caused so much controversy...LOL, j/k

Anyway, I'm a HUGE Dream Theater fan, I think their music is fantastic. But Mike Portnoy as a drummer does not impress me too much. I do think he is a great guy, and I'm sure he has contributed so much to the song writing process of DT. If you really listen to DT you might understand what I mean when I say that probably, alot of the older stuff was written around some crazy drum beat that Mike threw together. For example "Under a glass moon" or "6:00 o'Clock" and this is why DT's music is so appealing to drummers and has influenced alot of new drummers. But, notice that after Jordan Rudess joined, people began saying that the music has been disappointing. Well I think DT's music is now not writing around Mike (I'm sure some still is) but around Jordan instead. I believe Jordan's writing has been more prevalent in the last 3 albums, and that has caused Mikes parts to be simpler more straight forward.

The reason I say this is because I currently play for a Dream Theater tribute band, and I've had to dissect the music, not because it is extremely difficult but because, well, I have to learn it. I have to know what is really going on. However 80% percent I can pick up just by listening to the CD in my car. But there is that 20% percent that I really have to listen to. And the difficult part about playing the songs and what is impressive about Portnoy, is not the parts themselves, but instead putting all those parts together in a song. I like DT as a whole, MP is a good drummer, but is great with DT. But as far as my influences go in the realm of ProgRock/FusionRock or whatever you want to label it, I much rather listen to Mike Mangini, Nick D'Virgilio of Spock's Beard, and I'm starting to like Jeremy Colson. I've only seen Jeremy with Steve Vai twice, but he impressed me.

And as far as DT copying Tool or whomever, I don't think is copying but rather throwing a bit of a tribute to the bands and music they are influenced by. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that, if asked, I'm positive the DT members will tell you "yes, so and so part is influenced by so and so band" etc...countless times they throw in the actual parts from other bands that influence them into a song. For example "Enter Sand Man" from Metallica. Yet here you guys are arguing about it, stop complaining and go practice!

EDIT: Oh and about the argument about his huge drum kit being a joke, too big, or whatever...well, I've got a small 5 piece fusion size set, and I use two roto toms instead of the octobans Portnoy uses. Two crashes, two hi-hats (left and right side of the kit) one china, two splash cymbals, and one set of wannabe Max Stax, (which is really a china kang cymbal on top of any old cheap splash), one tamborine, and one jam block for the song "Surrounded" And guess what, I can play all the parts with that.

[Class A Drummer]

His dream theater set is soooo big (the one where he is playing "Hell's Kitchen"). I wonder if he cud spare some cymbals.

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7726

[DTportnoyDT]

While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time, he ain't a complete drummer. He's awesome when it comes to DT's music, but nothing else. There is a video of him playing with other cats on some solid rock song and if you just listen and don't watch, that could be anyone else. It was way too stiff even for the Mighty Portnoy!

Who gives a crap if he only fits DT's music? I got breaking news, people: HE'S IN DREAM THEATER! Therefore, his drumming need only satisfy DREAM THEATER'S style, no one else's. And if you ask me, he does a pretty damn good job when it comes to that.

And no kidding, tambian. Why do people have to start an argument about everything? Portnoy, Peart, Rich, the likes are great drummers with talent exceeding that of probably everyone on these forums. Why can't you leave the freakin' bashing out of these threads?

P.S. I don't give a crap if you want to jump on me and say "blah blah it's not bashing blah blah...." Even if it's not bashing by your accounts, it is still negative, and to me, that is bashing.


*crawls under blanket and prepares for a storm of raging protest surpassing the energy of a nuclear blast*

*comes back out from blanket and prepares to make his preparation note shorter*

*now trying to make the shortening n-

oh, forget it

[TheAnalogKid]

To set the record straight for all the naysayers: MP has stated that he has several influences from the Beach Boys to Slayer to Rush to the Dead. Their styles, even though are "Prog-rock/Prog-metal" they do branch off and have varying styles.

Also, to say that Tool is a 'wattered-down-radio-version' wouldn't be 100% accurate either. I can't stand Maynard, but I absolutely love Tool. They are a great band, that plays great music, just like DT.

However, I prefer DT.

[Robin]

Who gives a crap if he only fits DT's music? I got breaking news, people: HE'S IN DREAM THEATER! Therefore, his drumming need only satisfy DREAM THEATER'S style, no one else's. And if you ask me, he does a pretty damn good job when it comes to that.

Why can't you leave the freakin' bashing out of these threads?

P.S. I don't give a crap if you want to jump on me and say "blah blah it's not bashing blah blah...." Even if it's not bashing by your accounts, it is still negative, and to me, that is bashing.

Excuse me but didn't you read my post? I also said "While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time" But I also made a comment about his drum ability. I am like you, a devoted Dream Theater fan. Seen them 3 times and I'm only 16.

It's a fan's choice as to how much they like the drumming or music. This kind of wining (yours) makes me sick; someone that thinks there should be zero criticism. That's part of a discussion forum. So give me a break. If you can't bear to read anything other than glowing words about your favorite drummer ( as I said, MP IS one of my fave drummers ), I'd suggest logging off the internet now, permantely. Else suck it up.
That was my opinion I still stand by everything I said previously.

[Pirce]

Ok. I would like to start by saying I was one of those Portnoy-fanatics who think Portnoy is the fastest drummer on earth and his technique is the most incredible thing there is.....
I now know he isnt...But guess what? That hasnt changed my opinion about him. He is still my favourite drummer by far. Technique-freaks like Lang and Donati should bow to him, IMO. He plays advanced and complex parts and still remains very musical and warm and makes it all work in the context of the song.
He has created some of drummings all time most *MEMORABLE* drumparts like: 6:00 and Under A Glass Moon.

Of course I respect Lang and Donati for their dedication to drumming and especially drum technique. But I just dont think they have achieved so much as Portnoy in all of drumming, cos´ Portnoy is so much more than just drum technique.

Portnoy has shown his abilities in playing on a rather small kit(for example O.S.I and Transatlantic). I personally love his playing on a small setup maybe even more than on a big DT setup. But I must still say MP´s new Albino Monster kit is just pure SEX!!
By the way, MP plays a 4 piece set on the future OSI 2.

And one more thing, I have myself had the honor of meeting Mike Portnoy in person and I´ve got to say he is one genuine down to earth nice guy.

[finnhiggins]

He has created some of drummings all time most *MEMORABLE* drumparts like: 6:00 and Under A Glass Moon.


This is one thing I can agree with. Maybe not 6:00, but Under A Glass Moon has a really great drum intro part. Or it would be if the drum sound wasn't so horrible. If DT still have the original multitrack recordings of that album they should really go back and remix the damn thing minus all the horrible gating, overcompression and cheesy 80s reverb. It sounds like a Yamaha DTXplorer or something.

Anyway. Back on topic, this is one thing that I think makes a pretty big difference between technically proficient drummers and genuinely good ones - being able to come up with unique, catchy parts. Tim Alexander was always great at this in a rock context, as are Matt Chamberlain and Vinnie Colaiuta.

Portnoy is a good drummer. But there are a lot of regular features of his style that I find musically displeasing - the whole skipped 16th thing he uses a lot bothers me, I find it fairly anti-groove ("You not me" being a great example of that, it just sounds like the CD is broken). Likewise the constant re-use of the RLFF/RLFF/RLRLFF type stuff bothers me too.

But there's no denying Portnoy has done some great stuff. I just think he's a little overrated at times.

[DTportnoyDT]

Excuse me but didn't you read my post? I also said "While I love Mike Portnoy and consider him to be one of my favorites of all time" But I also made a comment about his drum ability. I am like you, a devoted Dream Theater fan. Seen them 3 times and I'm only 16.

It's a fan's choice as to how much they like the drumming or music. This kind of wining (yours) makes me sick; someone that thinks there should be zero criticism. That's part of a discussion forum. So give me a break. If you can't bear to read anything other than glowing words about your favorite drummer ( as I said, MP IS one of my fave drummers ), I'd suggest logging off the internet now, permantely. Else suck it up.
That was my opinion I still stand by everything I said previously.

Sorry, dude.

I was in an unusually bad mood when I posted that, and I must say that I honestly don't agree with most of what I said.
For one, I am a big fan of constructively criticizing someone, which, as I regretfully just contradicted, is WAY different from bashing. I also think it is necessary in a discussion.

So no hard feelings. I'll try to keep my raging moods locked safely inside.

*Goes back under blanket now that he is done making a blithering idiot of himself*

[tambian89]

In my opinion, Mike Portnoy is a good drummer. I see no reason for people to bash him for anything he does.

- Marc

[Robin]

Sorry, dude.

I was in an unusually bad mood when I posted that, and I must say that I honestly don't agree with most of what I said.
For one, I am a big fan of constructively criticizing someone, which, as I regretfully just contradicted, is WAY different from bashing. I also think it is necessary in a discussion.

So no hard feelings. I'll try to keep my raging moods locked safely inside.

*Goes back under blanket now that he is done making a blithering idiot of himself*
Hey! No worries! =) Can't wait for the DVD to be recorded in New York!

[Crazy Mad Drummer]

I can play a little of mike's stuff but most of it is extremely complex, there are shadow beats which you some times cant even hear unless you have your music up loud or watch a dvd of their concert. Mike Portnoy is a great inspiration to me and im yet to find a band that i like as much as Dream Theater. And no im not saying he's the best, im just saying that i find him really quite amazing. The best drummer i have ever heard is Eloy Casagrande his video is just plain awesome, this kid is fourteen years old and thats whats soo amazing (Check out his Video, just search it in the drummer world search bar.)
As for another band that is similar to DT, about the nearest you will get is Rush, but you could also try Opeth, both are progressive but Opeth is more heavy than Rush.

[Zardoz]

Does anybody have a link to a web site. Im looking for how and who invented the double kick pedal
Travis Barker created it..........

Staying on topic with Portnoy. I've only heard a few Dream Theater songs, so my knowledge of them is limited.....but what I've heard made me not want to buy any of their cd's. However, I did enjoy the videos of him on this site. He looks like a very solid player, with a lot of powerful yet tasteful fills.

[tntwinDRUMMER]

I've seen Dream Theater 2 times and he amazed me every time. I agree that he is a little overrated at times, but he is still one of the best. His chops may not the best in the world but I want to see someone come up with some of the parts he does on the CD's. I believe that he is one of the most down to earth people too. I mean how may pro musicians stand out in the freezing cold after a 2 1/2 hour show and sign autographs for 30 minutes and talk to fans for a while. He is a class act and his playing is up there with the best of them.

[Anduin]

I posted my comments on last night's Dream Theatre gig at Massey Hall in Toronto here:

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9560

[thinkintriplets]

I saw him last night here in Montreal. Guys, he is not underated.

Seriously though, he may not have the most complex chops of all metal drummers out there, but he is perfectly on time and percise, even with all those tempo and time signature switches. And personally, I prefer a drumming who is tight and percise when playing w/ mega chops rather than someone who is not tight w/ ridiculous chops.

thinkintriplets.

[Anduin]

And "tight" is the word for Portnoy and the whole band. I didn't hear a single obvious messup the whole night. (Okay, the singer cac'd a bit, but I think he's still feeling sick, so I won't fault him.)

[Robin]

Actually, Labrie have been singing awesome on this Octavarium tour!

[DTportnoyDT]

Actually, Labrie have been singing awesome on this Octavarium tour!

Yeah, I don't get why so many people thing LaBrie is annoying. I mean, I guess I could see it a little bit on some stuff, but he really is a great singer, and who else do you know with that range in pitch?

[Bernhard]

Just got some nice pictures from Paul La Raia (Modern Drummer) to share....

Bernhard

[Zildjian232]

i honestly dont care about chops. i respect more the drum tracks from dazed and confused than some death metal blast beat. i have a couple dream theater albums and i think portnoy is amazing. definatley a solid drummer, creative, and he plays with emotion. although i have to admit his solos are crappy(still 10 times the drummer i am but still). ive seen 3. i saw one from a long time ago when he had long hair. it was just a bunch of crowd pleasers, and i saw one from japan. he brought some people on stage to play with him it was pretty cool. but that solo honestly you just sit around one day in a music store and some guy is bound to come in and play the same stuff he did. it was just dbl kick and 16th note rolls and stuff. and the other one is a solo from a clinic he did. id have to say that is his best one. i belive its on this website

you can find these on video.google.com. you should just go there and type in band names you get a lot of cool stuff i have found a lot of cool drum videos. theres people that post themselves playing dream theater songs. some of em are not that legit because some young kids attempt he songs but there is people out there that play it note for note

but anyways i have the liquid dream theater dvd and he is able to groove really well he also has some really cool fills. o and if you go on the video google site. type in "yellow custard matter". he made a beatles cover band. they covered "while my guitar genly weeps" its really good if you havnt seen it

[Fagu]

juuh.. portnoy is one f my favorites.. I love her style to play and its sounds gooood... speed isnt so important.. but he can play speedy stuff also

[figure_02]

juuh.. portnoy is one f my favorites.. I love her style to play and its sounds gooood... speed isnt so important.. but he can play speedy stuff also

Her? Dude, Mike isnt really girly...

Bernard; I've subscribed up for a whole year of Modern Drummer, but the first exemplar hasnt come yet, was those pictures in the magazine with an interview?

[shuffle]

Bernard; I've subscribed up for a whole year of Modern Drummer, but the first exemplar hasnt come yet, was those pictures in the magazine with an interview?

None of those pictures, and no Portnoy interview in recent issues.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

He got those directly from the photographer pre publication. Let's just say Bernhard is well connected.

[tambian89]

I think of Mike Portnoy like this: If Lars Ulrich and Neil Peart were to run at one-another and melded together, you would get Mike Portnoy. Portnoy has the technical skills of Neil Peart (although I feel Peart is a better drummer) and the spirit and face-making of Lars Ulrich (but Portnoy loves bootleg Dream Theatre items).

- Marc

[osamasgoat5467]

Yeah I just started listening to Dream Theater. WOW. You have to give him credit for actually using that big of a drum set and sounding good. Lol anyone know how much that monster of a kit costs?

[figure_02]

Yeah I just started listening to Dream Theater. WOW. You have to give him credit for actually using that big of a drum set and sounding good. Lol anyone know how much that monster of a kit costs?

Hmm...that was an idea to check out...let me try! I'll take a normal Tama Straclassic Maple (the albino finish isnt for sale) in the exact sizes he use, emperor heads, black dot heads, signature snares, cymbals and

sorry, it would've been to big job, ill leave it for some else :p

[tambian89]

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know how Mike plays the Siamese Monster? I can't even imagine what he does to play fills and stuff on it. Does anyone know?

- Marc

[mikei]

I saw him on this 20th anniversary tour. It was great. He played it like it was just an extension of his body. He was all over the kit with minimal effort.

On a side note, I just received the Liquid Drum Theater DVDs.

He talks about playing on a smaller kit! It is still pretty huge. One bass drum, 3 toms, 2 timbales, a double pedal and probably 10 to 12 cymbals and effects along with 2 hihats!

So, that is a 8 piece (I include an extra bass drum since he uses a double pedal) and tons of cymbals.

When this seems like a smaller kit, you know the other kits are monsters!

[tambian89]

I saw him on this 20th anniversary tour. It was great. He played it like it was just an extension of his body. He was all over the kit with minimal effort.

On a side note, I just received the Liquid Drum Theater DVDs.

He talks about playing on a smaller kit! It is still pretty huge. One bass drum, 3 toms, 2 timbales, a double pedal and probably 10 to 12 cymbals and effects along with 2 hihats!

So, that is a 8 piece (I include an extra bass drum since he uses a double pedal) and tons of cymbals.

When this seems like a smaller kit, you know the other kits are monsters!

Sounds cool! I know he must have to get up and move to play some stuff; how did he manage that?

- Marc

[sound zap]

In the MD Fest 2003 video Mike played a 4 piece kit

[The Alien]

Mike Portnoy is, and always will be, a great drummer. Maybe not the most diversified of drummers (he could benefit from learning double-stroke rolls for example) but he has a style all his own.

He was, and still is, a great inspiration for me. As is Neil Peart, Steve Smith, and Virgil Donati.

My two cents on it.

[DTportnoyDT]

Excuse me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know how Mike plays the Siamese Monster? I can't even imagine what he does to play fills and stuff on it. Does anyone know?

- Marc

Good Question! :)

(By the way is this serious or sarcastic, if you pardon my asking?). I honestly don't know how he does it. There's all these people who have big kits and think that they're all that, but can't even make use of their monsters. Portnoy, though, has mastered his kit beyond belief. Everything he does just flows so well on that kit. Truly Amazing!

[tambian89]

Good Question! :)

(By the way is this serious or sarcastic, if you pardon my asking?). I honestly don't know how he does it. There's all these people who have big kits and think that they're all that, but can't even make use of their monsters. Portnoy, though, has mastered his kit beyond belief. Everything he does just flows so well on that kit. Truly Amazing!

Trust me, I was serious....I imagine that he flows well. Personally, I think the Siamese Monster is TOO big, there is just too much. Then again, I don't have nearly as much skill as Mike Portnoy.

- Marc

[Class A Drummer]

you think portnoy cud create a "donate a cymbal" kind of thing? where he gives cymbals to me and other drummers who are to lazy and cheap and broke to buy em?

that would be my dream lol.

[tambian89]

Any ever know that Mike did backing vocals for "Home"? Here's a video! http://youtube.com/watch?v=d2ES6mzB3q0&search=Home%20dream%20theater

- Marc

P.S. - I think Mike may do backing vocals on other tracks, but I'm not sure.

[RythmPoint]

Any ever know that Mike did backing vocals for "Home"? Here's a video! http://youtube.com/watch?v=d2ES6mzB3q0&search=Home%20dream%20theater

- Marc

P.S. - I think Mike may do backing vocals on other tracks, but I'm not sure.

Yep he does for plenty of songs "new millenium" for ex. in concert he has a mic that pivots back and forth for the parts when he does the vocals.

[Rory]

In the field of proggresive drumming, I feel Mike has actually done a lot. Even though yes, there are drummers out there of whom could be more inspiring to others (maybe this isn't true, if not, leave a post), you have to admit that there are many things that mike does that is unique to his music. They are:
-his double-bassing technique (it's not about the speak, its about how he can play more than just single rolls on his feet). if you listen to some of his recordings (such as Scenes from a Memory: Strange Deja Vu) you can here he plays a beat containing the bass drum playing flams. This is why I like his double bass technique.
-all of his cymbal work, he can play time on two or more cymbals
-finally, his odd time playing; not many drummers are able to do what he does (IMO)
Even if you absolutely hate Dream Theater (like my older brother), you still have to admit that thesee guys are at least talented.
PS. I like Liquid Tension Experiment, OSI is a novelty(not really a 'Mike' band), and Transatlantic is OK, not one of my favorites (though Mike does play great)

[Rory]

I saw Dream Theater at Radio City Music Hall in April. The concert is going to be released on DVD sometime later, you might want to check it out. i have one spoiler; during the second half of the show, there is an actual orchestra playing alongside the band (for .......don't want spoil it) Check it out when it comes out.

[figure_02]

Trust me, I was serious....I imagine that he flows well. Personally, I think the Siamese Monster is TOO big, there is just too much. Then again, I don't have nearly as much skill as Mike Portnoy.

- Marc

Actually, the Siamese Monster isnt really ONE big kit (same as his new Albino Monster), but its like a 2 in 1 package. But he doesnt do rolls and stuff over the entire kit, he plays one song at that side, and then he switches side to play another song.
Though I think I've seen him during Metropolis, Instrumedley and Octavarium, that he starts a roll on the for instance right side, and then he raises up, while countinuing the roll, and ends it at the left side.

[Jamie S]

on the subject of too large of a drumkit....if you see your kitas a full composite instrument..?
then nothing is too much. you wouldnt ask a guitarist to remove strings that aparticular song doesnt require would you??
i myself play a full octave shell kit and can appreciate where portneyis coming fromin his expression....
besides .... doesnt a five piece get a little boring on occasion..LOL

[DogBreath]

on the subject of too large of a drumkit....if you see your kitas a full composite instrument..?

Aaaah... my army grows!

[lfdy]

on the subject of too large of a drumkit....if you see your kitas a full composite instrument..?
then nothing is too much. you wouldnt ask a guitarist to remove strings that aparticular song doesnt require would you??
i myself play a full octave shell kit and can appreciate where portneyis coming fromin his expression....
besides .... doesnt a five piece get a little boring on occasion..LOL

For me (and a lot of other drummers), a five piece doesn't get boring , because there are so many possibilities with it. You don't have to have a 20 piece kit to make great music.

But if you look at it musically, there's nothing wrong with a big kit.

[blistermetal]

Yay. I've been searching for a thread on my favorite drummer. Now, first off yeah, he uses his entire kit. But he cah also play on a smaller kit. They played a small show in some place (can't remember), and he still had his aweseome sound. And he's creative in using his set up too. He's the only drummer I know of who can play a duet with the keyboardist! I know there are better drummers. But he's the one tops it for me.

[figure_02]

For me (and a lot of other drummers), a five piece doesn't get boring , because there are so many possibilities with it. You don't have to have a 20 piece kit to make great music.

But if you look at it musically, there's nothing wrong with a big kit.

But if a drummer makes great and superb music, intresting styles and fills, one a five piece, imagine what the same guy could've done one a huge kit :)
And btw, I think it's wrong to say that Mike's kit is so fricking huge, he just use two kits pit together as one. And the "big" side of the kit is actually much smaller than other metal/prog drummers use.

[lfdy]

But if a drummer makes great and superb music, intresting styles and fills, one a five piece, imagine what the same guy could've done one a huge kit :)
And btw, I think it's wrong to say that Mike's kit is so fricking huge, he just use two kits pit together as one. And the "big" side of the kit is actually much smaller than other metal/prog drummers use.

Yeah, sure, but i didn't say that there's anything wrong with having a big kit.

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be boring, playing on a 5 piece.

[Big_Philly]

For me (and a lot of other drummers), a five piece doesn't get boring , because there are so many possibilities with it. You don't have to have a 20 piece kit to make great music.

That is so totally true. Each piece can be used in multiple ways. Rim shots/clicks can also be done on the toms, and you can even get something nice out of your kit when you hit only the rims from time to time.

[tambian89]

These videos wer so cool I couldn't resist posting them:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dQkF8LUoyVE&search=Honor%20Thy%20Father

In terms of the rim hits mentioned in the previous post, Portnoy uses them quite well here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4rMcJdxcJvg&search=Mike%20Portnoy

- Marc

[figure_02]

His feet are pretty fast, listen to "Beyond This Life". Also, dont call it metal, cause it's not, it's progressive rock/fusion.

[Robin]

His feet are pretty fast, listen to "Beyond This Life". Also, dont call it metal, cause it's not, it's progressive rock/fusion.
Fusion? I think not. Tell me one DT song where Fusion is involved. And yes, Dream Theater music have heavy metal influences. Just listen to the entire ToT album for example and Panic Attack from Octavarium. It's progressive hardmetal.

[METAL_DRUMMER]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.

I dont get how some people dont give portnoy the credit he deserves. He is very good. I doubt you people are nearly as good as him.

[finnhiggins]

I dont get how some people dont give portnoy the credit he deserves. He is very good. I doubt you people are nearly as good as him.

Careful there, you're talking to somebody with a page on Drummerworld...

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Joe_Morris.html

I think Joe is fairly qualified to decide where he gives credit and why.

[figure_02]

Fusion? I think not. Tell me one DT song where Fusion is involved. And yes, Dream Theater music have heavy metal influences. Just listen to the entire ToT album for example and Panic Attack from Octavarium. It's progressive hardmetal.

Sure they have metal influences, but the ToT album was special, it's the only thing that's rally heavy, and even that's not heavy metal, and mike like to call it progressive rock, with bits of fusion and metal...

[figure_02]

Careful there, you're talking to somebody with a page on Drummerworld...

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Joe_Morris.html

I think Joe is fairly qualified to decide where he gives credit and why.

But if he is qualified, he should know more about drumming than to just say that Mike only has "cool shoes".

[finnhiggins]

But if he is qualified, he should know more about drumming than to just say that Mike only has "cool shoes".

Either that or he knows enough about drumming to say that. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

[shuffle]

Either that or he knows enough about drumming to say that. I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Well...

--) I'm not a Dream Theater fan, and I've never seen them live.
--) I usually enjoy Joe's posts very much. The fact that he takes some of his time to share his views with us is just simply great.
--) He certainly has the credibility to judge someone else's work.

But I'm surprised to see a pro drummer expressing such a "mean" comment about another pro drummer, without any more justifications. I mean, you can like or dislike Portnoy's style, that's ok. But he is among the most influential rock drummers of the last decade. There's gotta be something more about his drumming to comment on after seeing him than ... his shoes.

[Robin]

Careful there, you're talking to somebody with a page on Drummerworld...

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Joe_Morris.html

I think Joe is fairly qualified to decide where he gives credit and why.
I'm sorry but so? it's not "METAL_DRUMMER" who should be careful, It should be Joe Morris himself. To talk like that ( in a public forum ) about one of the worlds most greatest drummers is definitely not cool.

Memo to Joe : It's not "Dream Theatre", it's "Dream Theater"

[figure_02]

I cant agree any more with Robin and shuffle, would've loved to hear a explanation (sorry for my english, is that word spelled that way?) from Morris himself on that comment.

[finnhiggins]

I cant agree any more with Robin and shuffle, would've loved to hear a explanation (sorry for my english, is that word spelled that way?) from Morris himself on that comment.

Well, you could always PM and ask. But I don't think he really needs to explain himself, Portnoy's style is most certainly one which has a lot about it that people might not enjoy. I personally don't - I don't really like the way he phrases in odd meters and I find his playing rather lacking in subtlety or articulation. I've also studied with people - notably a really great bassist, whose name I won't bring into the conversation - who've said similar things to what Joe said about DT in concert.

It's fair enough to disagree and say that you enjoy what Portnoy does, and that he's one of the most influential rock drummers of the last decade. Those are pretty obviously both true. But I don't think any of you are in any position to make assumptions about other people's playing or knowledge of the drums just because they don't like Portnoy. There's an awful lot to love about the drums that Mike quite simply never approaches, so if you're more of an Elvin Jones or Bernard Purdie guy than a Neil Peart one then I can quite understand not seeing the appeal of Portnoy and DT.

[dawg]

portnoy can play...i just find dream theater a bore. i also tend to think of him as a neil peart clone.i don't hear a lot of stuff that grabs my ears musically.on the other hand,the 2 jelly jams cd's with myung,morgenstein and tabor,to me are some cool pop songs with a hard rock,progressive edge and if they ever tour,i'm there!

[Vic_Rattledeth]

I don't see what there is to hate about Portnoys playing. It has a nice mix of mostly everything in it, only thing that I think is missing from his playing is more doubles, and even tripples. Whats nice about Portnoy is how unique his style is, you can almost right of the bat know it's him playing. And he's god at playing in odd time signatures, mad props for that and being able to make it sound good musically with dream theater. Great band.

[toteman2]

Yeah, I kinda just lost some respect for Joe...Wheather you like Mike or not, it's just not cool for another Pro drummer to talk in a negative way about another pro drummer in a public forum. Kinda of strage seing Joe made that post about that dick at one of his clinics who said he "didn't think he was really that good". Joe got pretty pissed at that kid, yet has no problem comming to this forum and bashing Mike.

And Finn, NOBODY made any assumptions about Joe's playing or knowledge because he doesn't like Mike. They just think it's strange he would come out and say something like that. Joe's playing speaks for itself and we all know that.

[toteman2]

mad props for that and being able to make it sound good musically with dream theater

Isn't that what it's all about? Who cares if he's not playing complicated multi pedal ostinatos, or blazzing chops. He fits his band about as perfect as one could.

[finnhiggins]

And Finn, NOBODY made any assumptions about Joe's playing or knowledge because he doesn't like Mike.

You mean other than METAL_DRUMMER, who said "I doubt you people are nearly as good as him." in a direct reply to Joe?

Or the more sly "But if he is qualified, he should know more about drumming..." from figure_02?

Sorry, but if those guys didn't mean to say that stuff they shouldn't say it. I'm quite sure Joe has good solid reasons for his position, and his credentials are considerably more on the table than anybody else involved in this discussion.

[toteman2]

well those 2 quotes do qualify.

I know Joe is one of the great drummers alive today. There is nothing that can take that away. However I do feel it's a bit in poor taste to bash a fellow pro drummer (who's influenced thousands and thousands to pick up sticks) on a public forum of drummers.

I'm no bleeding heart, but it just seems pretty low.

[mikeybbdrummin]

Isn't that what it's all about? Who cares if he's not playing complicated multi pedal ostinatos, or blazzing chops. He fits his band about as perfect as one could.

EXACTLY! I feel the same way. Mike is perfect for the job he does. On Pearts thread there are people saying there are so many drummers that are better than him. Who cares. Alot of drummers that have passed him in ability most likley were influenced by him. It seems like if you dont have extreme four way independance, lightning quick hands and feet your not good enough to talk about. I have said it before and I will say it again. Gregg Bissonette is my favorite drummer for over 15 years. He does not have hands as fast as Coliauta, feet like death metal drummers or independance as extreme as Thomas Lang. Do I care? NO! He is one of the greatest all-around drummers there is. He is who he is because he is extremely versitile. And plays whats right for every situation he is in.

[finnhiggins]

EXACTLY! I feel the same way. Mike is perfect for the job he does. On Pearts thread there are people saying there are so many drummers that are better than him. Who cares. Alot of drummers that have passed him in ability most likley were influenced by him. It seems like if you dont have extreme four way independance, lightning quick hands and feet your not good enough to talk about.

I think this is a problem you're more likely to encounter on a Neil Peart or Mike Portnoy thread because so many people feel the need to laud them as technical gods above all others. Clearly there are choppier, more complex drummers out there than either, but I don't think chops or complexity are the measure of a drummer at all.

If you like Portnoy or Peart for what they do, that's grand. I don't think either of them come close to being any kind of apex for complexity, technicality etc. even in a rock music context, although they're both very solid drummers who do their thing very effectively. So really it's a matter of taste. Neither of them are exactly up my alley, although if I had to choose I'd probably go with Peart as he's at least a little closer to what I enjoy in drumming.

[mikeybbdrummin]

I think this is a problem you're more likely to encounter on a Neil Peart or Mike Portnoy thread because so many people feel the need to laud them as technical gods above all others. Clearly there are choppier, more complex drummers out there than either, but I don't think chops or complexity are the measure of a drummer at all.

If you like Portnoy or Peart for what they do, that's grand. I don't think either of them come close to being any kind of apex for complexity, technicality etc. even in a rock music context, although they're both very solid drummers who do their thing very effectively. So really it's a matter of taste. Neither of them are exactly up my alley, although if I had to choose I'd probably go with Peart as he's at least a little closer to what I enjoy in drumming.

You are correct. There are drummers out there that are better than both of them in every aspect. But what does that mean? If you dont like them ( not you in particular )
thats totaly fine. We are all entitled to our oppinion. Personally, I am not a big fan of Tre Cool or Barker like alot of people are, but I would not go to their thread and say so. What would that do? Like it or not Peart has influenced many, many drummers including Portnoy. I dont see the point in discrediting him for what he has done with drums that makes us know who he is in the first place just because there are better drummers. If thats the case, from what I read, every drummers favorite drummers should be ( for the most part ) Gadd, Coliauta, Lang, Chambers, Weckel and Donati. And a hand full of others.

[figure_02]

Well, you could always PM and ask. But I don't think he really needs to explain himself, Portnoy's style is most certainly one which has a lot about it that people might not enjoy. I personally don't - I don't really like the way he phrases in odd meters and I find his playing rather lacking in subtlety or articulation. I've also studied with people - notably a really great bassist, whose name I won't bring into the conversation - who've said similar things to what Joe said about DT in concert.

It's fair enough to disagree and say that you enjoy what Portnoy does, and that he's one of the most influential rock drummers of the last decade. Those are pretty obviously both true. But I don't think any of you are in any position to make assumptions about other people's playing or knowledge of the drums just because they don't like Portnoy. There's an awful lot to love about the drums that Mike quite simply never approaches, so if you're more of an Elvin Jones or Bernard Purdie guy than a Neil Peart one then I can quite understand not seeing the appeal of Portnoy and DT.

I'll never manage to beat you in a discussion anyway, so, totally simple: Do you think it was ok of Morris to say that?

[finnhiggins]

I'll never manage to beat you in a discussion anyway, so, totally simple: Do you think it was ok of Morris to say that?

Yeah, sure. For all the "Pros are always nice to each other!" stuff that goes on around here that's not been my experience. Pros tend to CARE about drumming. That means that their positive feelings on music are very strong, and likewise if they don't like it then they tend to be happy to say so and argue their points politely.

I can't think of a single one of my teachers at Drumtech who didn't say something implying a dislike of one drummer or another during my time there. That's not to say it's a hotbed of negativity, just that not every drummer loves every other drummer's approach to playing. I don't see why people should be forced to pretend they do when they clearly don't.

[figure_02]

Yeah, sure. For all the "Pros are always nice to each other!" stuff that goes on around here that's not been my experience. Pros tend to CARE about drumming. That means that their positive feelings on music are very strong, and likewise if they don't like it then they tend to be happy to say so and argue their points politely.

I can't think of a single one of my teachers at Drumtech who didn't say something implying a dislike of one drummer or another during my time there. That's not to say it's a hotbed of negativity, just that not every drummer loves every other drummer's approach to playing. I don't see why people should be forced to pretend they do when they clearly don't.

Sure, I wouldnt have cared to say this if he had argued his point politely, but "The only thing I can say about Portnoy is that he had really cool shoes" isnt really what I call to argue politely, it's just a pretty stupid and shallow comment.

[finnhiggins]

Sure, I wouldnt have cared to say this if he had argued his point politely, but "The only thing I can say about Portnoy is that he had really cool shoes" isnt really what I call to argue politely, it's just a pretty stupid and shallow comment.

I thought it was reasonable enough. Joe is a pretty straight-up guy and he speaks his mind. It's nice to have him around because of that - you know when he says something that he means it. So he doesn't like Dream Theater or Portnoy's playing and he said so in a pretty blunt manner. Is that a big deal? He didn't say "Portnoy was a load of crap" or anything like that. He just implied that the only thing he could talk positively about from that concert is Mike's shoes - i.e, nothing musical whatsoever. If that's his opinion then I don't think many here are qualified to tell Joe he's objectively wrong on that.

[mikeybbdrummin]

My question on the whole "shoes" comment whould be did you not know what type of band and drummer you were going to see in the first place? My guess is of course you did.
Its not like you went to see D.T. and The Backstreet Boys were there.

[figure_02]

I thought it was reasonable enough. Joe is a pretty straight-up guy and he speaks his mind. It's nice to have him around because of that - you know when he says something that he means it. So he doesn't like Dream Theater or Portnoy's playing and he said so in a pretty blunt manner. Is that a big deal? He didn't say "Portnoy was a load of crap" or anything like that. He just implied that the only thing he could talk positively about from that concert is Mike's shoes - i.e, nothing musical whatsoever. If that's his opinion then I don't think many here are qualified to tell Joe he's objectively wrong on that.

I dont care if it was Buddy Rich who said it, it was pretty dumb, and the fact that he is a professional/well known drummer makes it even worse.

[cnw60]

I dont care if it was Buddy Rich who said it, it was pretty dumb, and the fact that he is a professional/well known drummer makes it even worse.

Buddy woulda probably said something about Portnoy not even being fit to shine his shoes.... but then again Buddy wasn't always warm and fuzzy..

I'm not sure why everybody's got their hackles up over Joe's comment. If he had flamed somebody on the forum who posted a clip for feedback/comments - then yes, that kind of dismissive remark would be out of line, but Portnoy's not in that camp. He's not an aspiring drummer - he's already one of the big boys and as such, I think he can take the heat... I mean seriously, does anybody think Mike is sitting at home in a funk, unable to get out of bed thinking about giving up music because of Joe's comment???

I'd rather know how the heavyweights honestly feel about each other's styles and music than not get anything just because 'if you can't say something nice, it's better to say nothing...". Joe's comment let me know beyond any doubt that doesn't like that style of music/drumming (and he thinks MP's ove) - he's not alone...

[cobweb]

yeah.. i totaly agree to that, just now....

i bought this 30th reunion-something dvd of rush, ane, men, Neil Peart is a better 'percussionist' (i never really thought of the term til now), but mike is (as he've said) a better drummer. but there's no comparing to them.. i think theyre both good at what they are doing....

[HardcoreLogo]

Mike P. is a great drummer, ok, maybe not the best, but even he admits that.......I personaly think it is very low and shallow for a pro drummer to slag another on a public forum. It's not like the guy is giving any kind of professional critisisim. I mean, you go to see D.T., knowing what they are like, then you go to a M.P. thread and talk junk, sounds like someone has a lot of spare time........and P.S......just because this guy is a so called "pro", doesn't mean you have to "brown nose" it, God, that is one draw back on this site, everyone wants on the good threads and feel like there"up there" with the pro's.
Grow up, it's Drums, have fun!!!!

[slavetothestix2]

dream theater's music in general has inspired me to be a better musician. mike portnoy was my first technical influence. so as much as i thank portnoy for the influence in the beginning (and still today) i thank dream theater most of all for showing me where music can go. that's where i stand on that subject..

[Paul Quin]

It's taken a while to get through this post! I have to say that I come down on the side of Finn and I think he was right in commenting that those of us that adhere more to the Purdie/Gadd groove side of things find less enjoyment in listening to Portnoy. That is not to say that he is not an adept and good drummer - just that his playing does not inspire the same range of emotional reaction in all of us.

I do think, however, that some posters have gone overboard in their reaction to Joe's post. Of course, I have some self interest here in that I feel similarly and actually posted earlier also pointing out that I also liked MP's shoes! I am sure Joe had no intention of being controversial but was just posting an opinion: an opinion based on a wealth of talent and experience. And, may I be so bold as to suggest, an opinion to which many "he's my favorite drummer/they're my favorite band/how dare he/it's like he insulted my Momma" posters, should probably defer. Or at least, if not deferring, they should probably reflect on why he might have said that. Oh my God!! Maybe he's right!!

A criticism from someone with the basis to make such a criticism is not a personal attack on you and your likes and dislikes. Listen, evaluate, reflect and learn! If after all of that you disagree then so be it. And, by the way, I truly disagree that there was anything unprofessional in Joe's post.

You should feel free to diagree with me - I won't be offended!

Paul

[HardcoreLogo]

The whole thing that bugged me was to hear that a "pro" drummer would go on a public forum and talk crap, .....sure, everyone has an opinion, but, lets say I went to your house and you asked me if ur new baby was cute , what would think if I said
"Well, the shoes are nice........"?
I love so many drummers for so many reasons that I find something good to say about almost anyone I hear play well, just like I would probaly humor you and say,
"You're baby has your eyes......"

[finnhiggins]

The whole thing that bugged me was to hear that a "pro" drummer would go on a public forum and talk crap, .....sure, everyone has an opinion, but, lets say I went to your house and you asked me if ur new baby was cute , what would think if I said
"Well, the shoes are nice........"?
I love so many drummers for so many reasons that I find something good to say about almost anyone I hear play well, just like I would probaly humor you and say,
"You're baby has your eyes......"

Bloody hell you people all need to stop being so touchy. It's not like Joe's been paying social visits to Mike at home and telling him he has ugly kids. Dream Theater put music on public display, Joe paid to go see it and didn't enjoy what he saw.

Joe put his opinion here on public display, and some of you don't like what you see. Well, big deal. None of us have any right to tell Dream Theater to just give up and go get day jobs, likewise none of you have any right to tell Joe he's not allowed to assert his musical opinions in a public forum. Particularly when he's clearly somebody who actually knows what he's talking about.

The only reason I even pointed out that Joe was a pro with a page on DW was because he was being accused of being a poor player just because he didn't like Dream Theater. That was obviously asinine, so I felt the need to point that out. It's a stupid argument, but made with unfortunate regularity on the thread for almost any contentious drummer - be it Portnoy or Weckl, Travis Barker or Joey Jordison. This time it just happened to be made towards the wrong person.

But realistically it doesn't even make a difference if Joe's a pro or not. He has a right to say what he thinks, just as you or I do. Do you people really have such trouble processing dissenting opinions?

[HardcoreLogo]

Bloody hell you people all need to stop being so touchy. It's not like Joe's been paying social visits to Mike at home and telling him he has ugly kids. Dream Theater put music on public display, Joe paid to go see it and didn't enjoy what he saw.

Joe put his opinion here on public display, and some of you don't like what you see. Well, big deal. None of us have any right to tell Dream Theater to just give up and go get day jobs, likewise none of you have any right to tell Joe he's not allowed to assert his musical opinions in a public forum. Particularly when he's clearly somebody who actually knows what he's talking about.

The only reason I even pointed out that Joe was a pro with a page on DW was because he was being accused of being a poor player just because he didn't like Dream Theater. That was obviously asinine, so I felt the need to point that out. It's a stupid argument, but made with unfortunate regularity on the thread for almost any contentious drummer - be it Portnoy or Weckl, Travis Barker or Joey Jordison. This time it just happened to be made towards the wrong person.

But realistically it doesn't even make a difference if Joe's a pro or not. He has a right to say what he thinks, just as you or I do. Do you people really have such trouble processing dissenting opinions?
I agree with what your saying, I'm really not that big of a Portnoy fan, and I'm not some kid who is playing"who's the best" or "who's knows the most about..." I just feel it's UNPROFESSIONAL to slag other people in a public form. Sorry.....
THATS MY OPINION.....lol
P.S.
I'm sure Mike will not give up and get a day job over anything posted on this site.........

[mplsfalls]

All I know is Mike Portnoy is in the Modern Drummer hall of fame for his contributions to drumming. I have not seen a complete list of all the musicians who are in the hall of fame, but I am pretty sure they are all fantastic musicians.
As for the flaming Portnoy that is one's perogative, however, another professional drummer should remember that others may make similar comments based on what they have heard about you.
I don't post much, but, I enjoy reading the posts. Hopefully this forum can be a place where drummers can exchange information, be a fan club for drummers who catch their ear, and give advice to leverage our skills as drummers. So in my humble opinion, if a person does not like the playing style of a particular drummer or thinks they are not all that good, why say something at all. I am sure there might have been people back in the day who though that Gene Krupa sucked. All I know is I see more and more slamming of drummers on this forum, and I think it sucks. Perhaps we can start a web site called thisdrummersucks.com so we can have more constructive threads on this one.

Corey

[Melvin]

I love Mike Portnoy. His style is very complex and textured. I know there are better drummer than him, for example Virgil Donati but they play diferent styles and can't be compared.

I see Portnoy as my musical father. When I started drumming the drummer that really shocked me was him. I studied him a LOT, I have all of his videos. He has done a lot for me and many people. My creativity grew a lot when listening to DT.

I don't think tere's a more tecnical rock band than DT. There are a lot of good ones but not better than DT. They have a special quimistry and flow that mekes the so special.

[finnhiggins]

Portnoy is easily, hands down the best thing about DT. Unfortunately I don't think he's good enough to save them, either. I don't rate his technique, but what really bugs me about him dawned on me earlier: it's all tab drumming. Tab drumming? What the hell does that mean? Rhetorical questions aside, I just think his drumming all sounds like the kind of stuff you would design to write out in tab form: it has no serious amount of dynamics, no changing articulations on each surface, and most importantly it's all aligned to a metronomic grid in time and each note is only about its attack - there's no consideration of sustain, tone or space between notes.

If you listen to, say, Brazillian music you'll hear various things at work. One common phrase used is commonly written as a 1e(+)a phrase (where the "and" is not played) in 16ths, but which is actually played closer to a mix of 16th notes and triplets. It has a really nice feel and shape, and while it can be mathematically described it doesn't fit exactly into either a triplet or 16th note conception. You can't really tab this stuff accurately. It also has a lot of dynamics and articulation, and there are things like note lengths coming into play.

For me this difference between dynamic, articulated drumming with fluid, engaging time and the metronomic plodding stuff you hear from Portnoy is like the difference between a website designed using tables (i.e: lots of right angles everywhere) and a painting on canvass. One has been jazzed up to the best of the ability of the artist working inside serious restrictive logical requirements, the other is total freedom and a lot more human and expressive.

If you insist on playing everything as attacks written on a grid then there aren't a lot of ways to make that interesting - changing the dimensions of the grid is almost the only one, which is why Portnoy plays so much stuff in varied time signatures in DT. But really changing the dimensions of a grid doesn't make the stuff you build on that grid any less square and uninteresting, at least not for me.

As for bands with similar degrees of complexity to DT... there are many. I'd argue that Secret Chiefs 3 (just for one) is considerably MORE complex, but it's a very different kind of music so we'll ignore that. Staying inside the whole heavy/progressive/technical realm I'd have to just point to Fredrik Thordendal's solo album again, and Morgen Agren's loose, funky, fluid drumming over the complexity in that particular environment. That's NOT tab drumming...

[MPF]

MP will forever be one of my top infulences.

I feel blessd that I can keep up with his playing when trying it myself.

[Moose]

mike portnoy is definately one of my favorite drummers, and a top influence, but i think as many people have said before in this thread, its silly to call him the greatest drummer in the world as lots of people most surely do. i think the one thing portnoy is great at is that he fits his genre of music wonderfully. to say hes the greatest drummer in the world is stupid, but to say hes one of the greatest drummers (if not the greatest) to ever play his specific genre of music(prog metal kinda stuff) wouldnt be a bad assumption to make. sure there are better musicians like neil peart, but his band was completely different from dream theater from what ive heard (all of this is just my humble opinion however)
mike was the first drummer i really liked to listen to after being a travis fanboy for months(shudder) and his playing has taught me a lot of stuff, and ive learned a lot from watching him and listening to his band.
sure he may not be the fastest drummer in the world, he may not have the best technique, but when you think about it, drummers like hime are entertainers, and mike does a damn good job

[kornslipknot]

If anyone has seen that DVD when DT play live in Japan, not sure what it is called, they know that this guy is insane. He is by far one of the best drummers out there.

[Moose]

If anyone has seen that DVD when DT play live in Japan, not sure what it is called, they know that this guy is insane. He is by far one of the best drummers out there.
i agree i was just saying its silly to consider ANY drummer regardless of who they are the best drummer in the world, because certain drummers are better at certain things than others
i dont really think peart is a better overall drummer than portnoy, but i think pearts compositional skills are much better than portnoys
maybe "better musician" wast the right way to put it

[Robin]

Mike's playing on the new Dream Theater DVD is fantastic!

[mikeybbdrummin]

Mike's playing on the new Dream Theater DVD is fantastic!

I bought it yesterday. Its called DT Score/20 year anniversary. He is like Peart where 95% is played exactly likethe cd. His drums sound great. The whole band is incredible. 4 hours long. Half w/an orchestra. It was filmed in New York 4-1-06.

[mikeybbdrummin]

All I can say is he is an incredible drummer. If you dont like his drumming or the band, you cant deny that he is a great drummer. And the band is amazing. Some stuff can get old, but as a whole it is incredible to see how tight and in sync the band is.
Mike is a master of odd times. Like him or not what he does is very challenging and exciting to watch/listen to IMO. And has taken years of dedication to learn.

[Green and Mean]

Mike Portnoy is definetly one of my favourite drummer. He's playing is really great! It just fits perfectly in DT and his technique...
But what is best of his playing is SOUND.Damn it is so good! I feel I could eat his snare drum when he hits it:D..and his shoes and imago is cool.