Mike Portnoy

[DrummerDad]

I read all the titles and found nothing on him so here goes.

I love his technique. I used to listen to all the "normal" stuff till I heard him. And it seems all I want to listen to is Dream Theater now. I have played for awhile, and most drummers have certain niches, or habits. Once you figure out what they are doing you can play it. I usually can play a song the 2nd or 3rd time I hear it, But his stuff takes weeks, months on some of it, just to figure out the numbers behind what he is doing.What drives me crazy is most people( non-players) look at me like Im crazy when I start to try to explain what he is doing. They are like, man he screwed that up, and Im like, No he just dropped a beat, He'll pick it up in a minute.His drumming has texture, all the normal stuff is boring now. Can anyone tell me of a comparable band, with all the technicality of DT?What do you guys think of Mike? Sorry if this is a repost.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Mike_Portnoy.html

[finnhiggins]

Personally I think he's a basher playing complex music. His actual physical technique is pretty shocking, and to my ears he uses that whole 2xhands/2xfeet/4xhands/2xfeet stuff far too often. I also think the size of his kit is ludicrous for the musical results he gets, he could play the same kind of stuff on a kit a third of the size and still have plenty of room to move.

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

But that's just me. I just reckon Portnoy kind of fits the profile his history would suggest - somebody who went to Berklee but never went to class.

EDIT: Ouch, that was a bit harsh. I'll be nicer. I do think Portnoy gets some impressive results, and his control over time is very good. He's quite a natural when it comes to playing stuff in odd groupings. His tone is also surprisingly good considering the fact that his hand technique looks like Dave Grohl's. But then, there's plenty of drummers who look hideous when they play but sound great - like Gary Husband. So yeah. I don't like his technique, the music isn't to my taste and I don't think he's quite as good as all the hype would suggest. But he's certainly a very solid player with some flashy chops.

[Dyaxe]

@ finn

ill have to disagree, portnoy uses his whole kit most of the time. he wouldn't be able to do as much on a smaller kit. ill have to agree though, he does seem to use that 2x hand 2x feet ect.. quite often, but heck...to me its better then hearing a straight forward rock beat.


as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.

anywho..portnoy is definetly one of my favorite drummers. his sound, his technique, his presence and everything else is just awsome.

[DrummerDad]

I dont experiment much with music. The tastes of most are weird to me. Are there any other drummers, who can actually play like him? Im talking about the stuff where his feet are playing 3-4 time, and he cymbal crashes on 4-4 time, or where he plays in a 4-4 time while the band plays in a 3-4 or 6-8. His timing is superb if you ask me. And hes a triple threat. Clean, Fast, and Technical. I know Rush has played weird time sigs before, but its like these guys could care less about a time sig. If the words require a 5-8 in the first measure and a 3-4 or 7-8 in the next, so be it.I think its borderline genious. Any one else play like that, if so who?

[stagecustom]

try danny carey from TOOL.

[Scottylawton]

Yeh Danny does it heaps, good example the bridge i guess you'd call it on Lateralus at the 4:40 mark the whole band play something way different to each other, really good stuff.

[Scottylawton]

Oh and Thomas Lang and Virgil Donati do it well too.

[finnhiggins]

@
as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.


I'd disagree. Check out the solo on "Soul Burn", particularly from about 2:55 in. Ouch.

[Joe Morris]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.

[darkcherryfade]

I consider Kenneth Schalk from Candiria to be a master at the kind of drumming style you seem to be describing. They're very much like fusion-metal as opposed to prog-metal, so the approach is a little different, but it's very complex (the older stuff anyway). I think you can appreciate it.

I think Portnoy is a decent player, although I prefer a looser kind of style. His feel is a little too rigid for me, but it works with Dream Theater's music. Does he seem a little rushed sometimes to anyone else?

[Lambo]

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

That album is INCREDIBLE!!!!!

[finnhiggins]

That album is INCREDIBLE!!!!!

Seen the video of Agren playing with Fredrik Thordendal here on Drummerworld?

[Pedro]

Mike Portnoy is for me the perfect drummer for Dream Theater. I love their music. For me it's orgasmic music.

BUT: I don't like Mike in an other context. (for e.g. Yellow Matter Custard - plays way to hard and not creative for the kind of music)

Ok, Thomas Haake with Meshuggah is really good, but you certainly can't compare the styles. Haake wouldn't fit in Dream Theater like Portnoy does. But of course he is a really crazy drummer (got the cd "destroy erase..." 2 days ago). Some people want to play such kind of music (like Meshugghag) with me, mut I don't know if I'm able to.

[MaxRoach]

I respect portnoy so much. He's basically the reason that I got into drums so heavily. I remember about 4 years ago when my friend would show me DT cd's and I'd be so amazed because I'd never heard anything so ..... odd. I would get him to give me CD's and I would just learn all of portnoy's licks on my basement floor because I didn't have a double kick pedal yet. His playing pretty much inspired me to get into odd times and it helps me bring it into jazz playing which makes it all the more interesting. But like any drummer, it gets to the point where you understand what they are doing and you find them 'boring' or 'tasteless'. But if there's one thing I've realized, is that you can learn something from EVERY drummer. And personally, I love the music (maybe because I literally like every style of music =\ )

[finnhiggins]

I consider Kenneth Schalk from Candiria to be a master at the kind of drumming style you seem to be describing. They're very much like fusion-metal as opposed to prog-metal, so the approach is a little different, but it's very complex (the older stuff anyway). I think you can appreciate it.


I've got 300% Density around somewhere and it sounds to my ear like some of his timing is a bit off. Is the newer stuff better in that respect? It sounds a bit uncertain, nothing like as solid as Portnoy for example.

[darkcherryfade]

I've got 300% Density around somewhere and it sounds to my ear like some of his timing is a bit off. Is the newer stuff better in that respect? It sounds a bit uncertain, nothing like as solid as Portnoy for example.

I always found his timing to be pretty precise. I see what you mean about that "a bit uncertain" thing. At first I thought that too- alot of times on their old stuff, I'd think I hear him miss something, but when I listen to the segment again I notice some of his weird displacements and transitions. He's very jazzy on those albums and he has an interesting way of working around a beat that does sometimes sound a little weird, but there definitely is a very unique, very dynamic, often very embellished groove to it that'll make your head nod in a strangely pleasant way if you can get into it. Not to say his timing is perfect, cause mine sure as hell isn't so I can't judge someone elses. The newer album called "What Doesn't Kill You" has more straightforward rhythms, even in the odd time segments, and I did notice the timing was a hell of a lot tighter. And I always thought he was as solid as Portnoy.

[LiquidSoul546]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.

You walked out? haha, why? (i might have too)
My thoughts on Portnoy are...Solid drummer. Very intelligent on his profession, but, I personally beleive, he just puts 4/4 stuff in different time signatures haha. Plus he is a bit cocky. Watch his Budokan dvd, he never sits down, and i heard he flicks people off during his concerts.
peace

[finnhiggins]

I always found his timing to be pretty precise. I see what you mean about that "a bit uncertain" thing. At first I thought that too- alot of times on their old stuff, I'd think I hear him miss something, but when I listen to the segment again I notice some of his weird displacements and transitions. He's very jazzy on those albums and he has an interesting way of working around a beat that does sometimes sound a little weird, but there definitely is a very unique, very dynamic, often very embellished groove to it that'll make your head nod in a strangely pleasant way if you can get into it. Not to say his timing is perfect, cause mine sure as hell isn't so I can't judge someone elses. The newer album called "What Doesn't Kill You" has more straightforward rhythms, even in the odd time segments, and I did notice the timing was a hell of a lot tighter. And I always thought he was as solid as Portnoy.

Spurred by your post I actually went digging and found that CD. I found both what I remembered and what you're saying is pretty much right - there's some stuff where I swear the time isn't quite metronomically correct, particularly in the unison sections with big gaps - there's a cymbal crash on the 10th track at about 1:42-44 that definitely sounds out of time with the rest of the band coming back in, things like that. But equally, he's very solid whenever he's in a groove, and I like his washy cymbal sounds and ghost notes a lot more than Portnoy's approach personally.

I did remember why I never listen to this album though. The engineering is horrible! I've recorded better sounding stuff than this, and I suck as an engineer! Also, they really need to get a new singer. This guy sounds like he's doing a very deliberate impression of a fourteen-year-old shouting at his parents about how unfair the world is, complete with nasal wobbling and sounding like he's about to start crying. The rest of the band are pretty good when he shuts up though. Best bit of the album I can find is the start of track #10 (before the vocals start) and the hidden instrumental track at the end.

[Elemental Nausea]

@ finn

as for comparing thomas haake to portnoy...portnoy is way more technical then him. Ofcourse i have to admit haake definetly has some talent, portnoy seems to "do" more with his kit. ofcourse this is my oppinion though.


man lots of ridiculous stuff written here( dyaxe was just an example): portnoy`s technique is really NOT that good, his stick conrol looks really odd to me, like someone else already said in this thread, and it is not right that you can`t recognize habits in his playing like for example this well-known combinations between the hands and the feet.
Man if you really want to listen to crazy stuff, try listening to meshuggah , spastic inc. or necrophagist(the craziest I know) dream theater is really simple compared to them.
saying that portnoy is way more technical than haake is so ridiculous, portnoy could never play the stuff haake does, and haake would be to bored playing portnoy`s stuff. Such crazy time-signature rotating like in meshuggah I have really never heard before

[Shekhy]

I really don't like the attitude of Portnoy, too much show off and that can be felt in his playing. Anyway there are lots of interesting things to learn by listening to him. But I really prefer in that style of music (DT or Liquid Drum Theater) drummers such as Sean Reinert (Gordian Knot, Aghora, Cynic) or the work of Marcel Dissantos in Atheist.
As for Necrophagist, on the 1st album it's a drum machine and on the second album it's "just" excellent Death Metal drumming (and I think that Muhammed Suicmez playing the guitare is what makes the difference in this band, not the drumming), anyway you can find such stuff in Iniquity, Psychophagist, Lost Soul and the list is almost endless.

[DrummerDad]

I have respect for Tools drummer, and I liked the stuff from Creed, but all these others, I have never heard.

The reason I like Portnoy so much is his depth. There are albums they have that they play several different types and styles of music( listen to Change of seasons). He can go slow(which drives me crazy) and he can go fast. he can get technical, or play a little bluesy, or jazzy. I have learned 10 fold since I started playing DT. Hes not the fastest, the cleanest, or the most technical, but to say hes no good, to me is bold. I used to think I was a mediocre drummer, back when I played ONE from Metallica, and a little Pantera. But since I have stepped up to DT, I feel I am at least 2-3 times better.

One thing I have noticed though. If I dont play an album for awhile, say like Images and Words, and I go and try to play, Its like starting over. It might just be because I suck, but I only get about 2-3 hours practice a week.

I guess I need to try a few new groups, But im a little wearry of the crazy stuff. I have 3 kids and a wife who likes country(gag), so I have to keep it cool. I bought my Disturbed from Wal-mart because its edited. I dont get into the satanic stuff, or the really raw stuff, like Dio, or Zombie, but any bands along the lines od Tool, or Dream Theater, I would definately consider. Also I'll need band names, im not up on my drummers to much.

Im just a guy who likes to jam, I dont play in a band, never will. I like complex and crunchy music, and killer drums. Maybe someday my son will be a good drummer.

[Stu_Strib]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

I liked Portnoy on the Modern Drummer DVD when he did the Beatles bit. It shows he is indeed musical and a far superior drummer than I'll ever be. Its just when he switches to that rediculous purple kit that he loses me. His playing is intense and awesome there too, but its just not my gig.

Not being a Dream Theater fan (my brother, a non-musician being their biggest fan ever), I can say I really dig their bassist. He's the only guy in the band demonstrating one lick of restraint.

Sorry to sound disrespectful (I'm not), but I just don't get them. Maybe its the fact they are such superior players on their instruments that the average rocker dude is just blown away by how good they are (in respect to other rock bands?). I dunno, I'm just throwing that out there for discussion.

stu

[finnhiggins]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.


How do you figure that prog is borrowing from fusion more than the opposite is true? Billy Cobham was certainly influential for many of the fathers of modern prog drumming, but equally I don't think there's a lot of fusion drummers who aren't borrowing a few things from the likes of Bill Bruford on a regular basis. And they all borrow from the likes of Buddy Rich, Tony Williams and Elvin Jones.

You seem to feel that fusion is this source of all choppy musicianship and that other styles are just riding their coattails. Modern fusion chops are a combination of the paradiddle stuff made popular by both Bruford and Cobham, jazz drumming and afro-cuban material. It's quite easy to argue that modern prog is born of the same roots and therefore is no less valid in any way. It would be quite easy to argue that fusion is just pornificiation (my word!) of jazz and prog chops.

[MaxRoach]

I've never really gotten Pornoy. Its probably more a 'taste' issue with me. Also, as a fusion purist, I don't really get into the rockprogification (my word) of fusion. In otherwords, bands that incorporate fusion elements and chops, but try to make it somehow more standard rock sounding, to appeal to a broader listening audience. For me, its all or nothing. Either you are a rock band or you are a fusion band. The inbetween stuff is just really neither of each.

What do you think fusion is? You could argue that "prog" is fusion as well...fusion is just the "fusion" of styles.

[Stu_Strib]

Well either way, if fusion borrows from DT or vice versa, I don't like the middle ground that DT walks. Is it rock or is it fusion? Its somewhere in between. I'm not saying its bad, I just think DT has a bit of an identity crisis.

[finnhiggins]

Well either way, if fusion borrows from DT or vice versa, I don't like the middle ground that DT walks. Is it rock or is it fusion? Its somewhere in between. I'm not saying its bad, I just think DT has a bit of an identity crisis.

Not really, it's genre-happy prog rock. It seems like you're willing to give legitimacy to modern fusion as a genre (when it really is an amalgam of 70s fusion, jazz, latin and 80s AOR rock/pop) yet you won't extend the same to modern "prog-revival" music (which is an amalgam of 80s metal and 70s prog, mainstream rock and fusion). Dream Theater have a very clear identity - they rip off Rush about 80% of the time, and a combination of 80s and 90s metal and alt-rock acts (Pantera, Tool, Rage Against The Machine etc) the other 20% of the time.

I don't see how you can have respect for one as a unique style yet critique the other as suffering from an identity crisis. I think they're both suffering from one, being as fusion doesn't fuse styles anymore and prog isn't progressive. But you seem to disagree with one while asserting the other, which is just odd.

[Stu_Strib]

Not really, it's genre-happy prog rock. It seems like you're willing to give legitimacy to modern fusion as a genre (when it really is an amalgam of 70s fusion, jazz, latin and 80s AOR rock/pop) yet you won't extend the same to modern "prog-revival" music (which is an amalgam of 80s metal and 70s prog, mainstream rock and fusion). Dream Theater have a very clear identity - they rip off Rush about 80% of the time, and a combination of 80s and 90s metal and alt-rock acts (Pantera, Tool, Rage Against The Machine etc) the other 20% of the time.

I don't see how you can have respect for one as a unique style yet critique the other as suffering from an identity crisis. I think they're both suffering from one, being as fusion doesn't fuse styles anymore and prog isn't progressive. But you seem to disagree with one while asserting the other, which is just odd.

Eh, I don't disrespect either. Please don't put words in my mouth. I PREFER one over the other, because I feel its more true to the pure form of musicality, while the other adds an element of popular music to it, and, as already established, I don't particularly care for pop-music.

The part where you say they are 20% Pantera/Tool/Rage (although they've been around longer than Tool and Rage) is exactly why I don't like them as much. Its that 20% (dare I say sell-out?) that seems like a concerted effort to be more popular, rather than be more gooder (my word!).

My point is I prefer the purists to the popularists is all. Completely 100% my opinion and perrogative. Your disagreement is kinda silly. Its like me saying I like Green Day, then you saying they are just a ripoff of 70s and 80s punk. Well, yeah, so. I still like it. (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I think we killed the whole "fusion sucks and is nothing more than crappy porn music" thread elsewhere.

[hotsauce3n]

Personally I think he's a basher playing complex music. His actual physical technique is pretty shocking, and to my ears he uses that whole 2xhands/2xfeet/4xhands/2xfeet stuff far too often. I also think the size of his kit is ludicrous for the musical results he gets, he could play the same kind of stuff on a kit a third of the size and still have plenty of room to move.

For that kind of stuff I'd vastly prefer to listen to Thomas Haake with Meshuggah (start with "Destroy Erase Improve") or something like Fredrik Thordendal's "Sol Niger Within" featuring Morgen Agren on drums.

But that's just me. I just reckon Portnoy kind of fits the profile his history would suggest - somebody who went to Berklee but never went to class.

.


i definately agree with this... but nevertheless hes still a good player.. does anyone know if that video of him at the drum clinic is by any chance the drum clinic in texas??

[finnhiggins]

The part where you say they are 20% Pantera/Tool/Rage (although they've been around longer than Tool and Rage) is exactly why I don't like them as much. Its that 20% (dare I say sell-out?) that seems like a concerted effort to be more popular, rather than be more gooder (my word!).


You mean, unlike that 20% of fusion that sounds like 80s AOR? Oh, and just to address the swiping-from-Rage-and-Tool thing... that came later. First Tool/RATM cribs I noticed were on Scenes From A Memory (both in the early minutes of "Home") and there's a really obvious Pantera riff on "The Test That Stumped Them All" from SDIT. So yeah, that's just in recent years. Before that they just sounded like Rush, so I guess you can enjoy them as purist for everything prior to Falling Into Infinity, no?


My point is I prefer the purists to the popularists is all. Completely 100% my opinion and perrogative. Your disagreement is kinda silly. Its like me saying I like Green Day, then you saying they are just a ripoff of 70s and 80s punk. Well, yeah, so. I still like it. (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I think we killed the whole "fusion sucks and is nothing more than crappy porn music" thread elsewhere.

This is a touch different. You do repeatedly seem to assert that other bands or styles of music are derivative of fusion (which suggests that fusion is superior, these other styles inferior) on a regular basis. That's really not the case. Fusion is derived from a bunch of other styles - hence the name - and those styles have also influenced other genres. It's a bit like saying that Brazillian music is derivative of Hip Hop because they share some minor rhythmic similarities in that they're both basically born from an African rhythmic tradition. You're quite welcome to say that, but it just doesn't make any sense.

If you want to talk about purists in Fusion, what are you listening to Vital Information for? They're very much later generation, heavily influenced fusion rather than the innovators that Return to Forever, Lifetime, Mahavishnu or Headhunters were. Your words don't add up to your tastes.

[Sticksman]

Portnoy is a very talented drummer in a difficult band (to play for). His style fits the music quite well, and he has several intricate fills to show off, plus he eats odd time sigs for breakfast.

However, I think he uses the 2x/2x/2x method way too much for my liking. A few more variations on it would be fine, but he seems pretty content with it. Oh well.

I like the fact that he makes use of his entire drum set during the course of DT's albums, and not just regulate himself to the bass and snare like oh so many other drummers out there. Hey, its progressive rock anyway, and he fits the bill nicely, though I wouldn't place him as the poster child for it.

[K!lly]

I own a lot of video of Mike P. I love his "efficient play"
And he really is a big drums freak....

..but

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.
Lot of people say also: "he 's the god of drums.. just look at his kit its the bigger one on the world...etc"

That I'm trying to say its that, in the same way for Travis Baker, some fans just hammered my head all time with Portnoy here, and Portnoy there.. "Ho, can you play like Portnoy pliz" or "hum I don't like the way you play, may be its because I allways listen to Portnoy"..etc

Ant Thats really boring......

Like my band.. they are professionnal musicians, really good player and all this stuff (but they don't know the "hidden" part of drum history).. and they want to write my scores in our songs, jus tin the way they heards drums on M.P records....

That make me really sick.

I really love Mike P. (and Travis B.), he's a model for me, but some people just make me hate them because they have big mouths and think that those drummers are the only drummers on the world....


so disgusting.

[silver_one_drummer127]

I own a lot of video of Mike P. I love his "efficient play"
And he really is a big drums freak....

..but

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.
Lot of people say also: "he 's the god of drums.. just look at his kit its the bigger one on the world...etc"

That I'm trying to say its that, in the same way for Travis Baker, some fans just hammered my head all time with Portnoy here, and Portnoy there.. "Ho, can you play like Portnoy pliz" or "hum I don't like the way you play, may be its because I allways listen to Portnoy"..etc

Ant Thats really boring......

Like my band.. they are professionnal musicians, really good player and all this stuff (but they don't know the "hidden" part of drum history).. and they want to write my scores in our songs, jus tin the way they heards drums on M.P records....

That make me really sick.

I really love Mike P. (and Travis B.), he's a model for me, but some people just make me hate them because they have big mouths and think that those drummers are the only drummers on the world....


so disgusting.I agree Mike P and Travis both play with very technical and consistant style and are both fantastic drummers.

[Paul Quin]

I also think he has great shoes

[silver_one_drummer127]

how have you seen his shoes?

[DrummerDad]

Well, I actually expected more positive feedback on Mike. And Ive never heard of DT "ripping off" other bands. Oh well, its what you like I guess. Ive always thought they were pretty original.
Mike can play fast, I have a video of them playing Metallica's Damage Inc. with some screeming "singer" dont know who it is. Anyway, Its definately faster than metallica played it, but Id put money on the fact that Larz cant play DT's stuff, and alot of the people here like Larz . But, I also know he cant play as fast as Panteras drummer. I used to be pretty fast, but as I started to play DT, I lost the speed, and replaced it with technical abitlity. Thats what I like. I like the sound of the double basses going full tilt, but to me its more about the odd beats. And that he is good at.
As for him(or them) ripping off Rush, I dont see it. JMO, but I think Mike is better than Peart. Peart is a percussionist, in that he plays some other percussion instruments, Mike is a drummer. I guess Peart is a much better musician, but Mike is a better drummer.
As for the rest of the band I think they are all just as talented, except the singer. They have excellent timing as a group, and do very well together.
Again what bands do these other drummers play for, i might listen to them a bit.

[finnhiggins]

Well, I actually expected more positive feedback on Mike. And Ive never heard of DT "ripping off" other bands. Oh well, its what you like I guess. Ive always thought they were pretty original.

They've certainly been doing some blatent borrowing of late. Compare the start of "Home" with the start of "46&2" by Tool, and the subsequent distorted wah riff with about half of RATM's "Evil Empire" album. Also the unison motif in "The Test that Stumped Them All" with "By Demons Be Driven" by Pantera.

[Big Evil]

Mike is one of my favourite drummers i just love all his stuff. I have 5 of the dream theater albums, live at budokan dvd and the liquid drum theater dvd and they are all amazing. I luv his drum sound live. To me he is a true drum god!

[Elemental Nausea]

People said "look at his double bass technic.. so great"... NO WAY.. he can't go upper 200 bpm for 5 min... but may be its only because he don't show it.


lol, are you a bit insane? Could you please tell me anyone who can go at 200 bpm for 5 mins?? lol I think noone can do this , except some complete WFD nerds

[K!lly]

.. it's was an image....

but I'm sure that "unknowed" people can do it.... and that doesn't mean they're good drummer....

it was an "example"

[Pratt]

for me, since metropolis part II (except for falling into infinity, wich I think is really poor), mr portnoy has kinda lost his way...he is way too far from that drummer who created those excellent arrangements for "when dream and day unite" and "images and words"... remember erotomania and 6 o´clock? where are them?

I wont demand for a band toalways put out great masterpieces but in fact, for me, dream theater has lost the way home since kevin moor quit them...

[MaxRoach]

for me, since metropolis part II (except for falling into infinity, wich I think is really poor), mr portnoy has kinda lost his way...he is way too far from that drummer who created those excellent arrangements for "when dream and day unite" and "images and words"... remember erotomania and 6 o´clock? where are them?

I wont demand for a band toalways put out great masterpieces but in fact, for me, dream theater has lost the way home since kevin moor quit them...
Hmm. Maybe it's because I just got into DT but my FAVOURITE album is Scenes from a Memory.....I just think that they are trying to go different routes with their cd's. I dont think they necessarily 'lost their way'. I like the way it's progressing.....their cd's are getting more metal.....and portnoy is still playing pretty technical.....I like the placements of the bass drum more and more from each cd.....I think it's getting better.

[Ynnad101]

Alright ppl, im new to the post so wut up.... in just gonna dive right into it. MP+DT i could not think of a better match, the guy can play in the sense that he connects with the music around him and knows how to enhance it. needless to say the chemistry that one cant help but notice... as to compare with any heavier bands and drummers, i wouldnt. since from my point of view what matters most is how you can complement the music and make it hole and portnoy's abilities do just that.

Personally DT was the door that introduced me to this world of complex technicalities and musical ingenuity in which portnoy forms a great part of. i admit that at first i thought he was the best thing in town!!! but that was cuz like i said i didnt know better, now that does not mean that im beginning to see his flaws, its just a process of education and evolution, and thats the beauty of it all.

To say that in some cases DT is a rip off, pretty much deminishes the idea of musical influence... portnoy's said many times how Peart was one of his greatest influences that does not make him a copy cat, sh.. portnoy's one of my biggest influences and ive used many of his concepts to broaden my abilities as a drummer... besides we see how many of the new styles of music that come out have a clear similarity to a style that already exist... its called evolution ppl. its a matter of taste i think. of course there are faster, smoother, or just plain sick drummers out there but what portnoy does is all in context of the music.
So.. anyways thats just my opinion right??lol

[finnhiggins]

To say that in some cases DT is a rip off, pretty much deminishes the idea of musical influence...

Not really. You can be influenced by something in an obvious way without ripping it off. The examples I was mentioning lifted key phrases or riffs from the source songs with little or no alteration. That doesn't really require much independent thought and it's pretty cheap. I'd mind less if they'd at least borrow from stuff that isn't in a similar genre - if they want to go grab a melody from A Love Supreme and turn it into a prog metal riff I'd maybe be more sympathetic to the idea that it's "influence" at work, but grabbing the bass line from another prog/metal song and moving one or two notes around a little bit is quite amateurish.

[aegir77]

I saw Dream Theatre 2 years ago. I walked out after 6 songs. All I have to say about Mike Portnoy is he had really cool shoes.
i saw them too, wakled out after 6 songs, boring, he has no feelig when he plays
and portnoy's kit is too much for him, weckl, carey, chambers, beauford,agren and a lot more do greater things with a smaller kit...
he reaaaally does that thing 2xhand 2 xfeet too often...
his technique isn't great and as someone said earlier, he just pust 4/4 on different time signatures. Amateur drummers go " he's the best, he has a lotta details, and his technique, woahh" he has the strokin technique of grohl and he's so stiff, unlike beaufor
.once you get to know him you can catch the details real quick and they aren't really hard...
you should listen to dave weckl, those are details, or danny carey if you like rock music",
listen to them carefully, with headphones, and you'll realize in each song there are tons of details. tons of em..
mike's really good but for me he's one of those drummers who is now stuck.. the new record sounds just like the one before. and that one sounded like the one before...he hasn't shown anythin new

[Ynnad101]

mike's really good but for me he's one of those drummers who is now stuck.. the new record sounds just like the one before. and that one sounded like the one before...he hasn't shown anythin new

On that i agree just a bit... he should put an extra effort for the next record to expand his technique, and make it more challenging.

PS: if the quote didnt come out right... understand its my 2nd post. :p

[Pratt]

I think he´s being stuck by the path the band´s compositional involution is traceing, I mean, there are too many odd sigs, a lot of heavy riffs, cool ballads, but everything is so cliché...no wonder he doesent have anything else to do than repeat himself...(although I must recognize his efforts towards creativity)

oh, I forgot to mention all those predictables vocal lines...
its sad, but we have to admit that they´re going preety much the same way as metallica...downhill !!

ops, metallica has continuously increased their profits, so what´s good indeed?

[HeyMang]

WARNING: The following link is unsafe for work or school due to adult banners and advertisements.

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-awesomedrummingskills.html

:) pretty good vid, id say.

[sound zap]

I saw Mike in that awesome Tama video

[alienworkshop227]

I think Portnoy is a great drummer, his drumset is also very nice... he has some cool drum videos on here, look him up...

[Cuauhtemoc]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."

[CarterB_Junkie]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."

No.
Good Night.

P.S : What's make you more creative than Portnoy or Gadd ? Give me a break and be more positive towards drummers.Thank You.

[finnhiggins]

No.
Good Night.

P.S : What's make you more creative than Portnoy or Gadd ? Give me a break and be more positive towards drummers.Thank You.

What a useless post!

Let's review:

* State a contrary opinion
* Don't back it up with anything
* Launch an ad-hominem attack
* Include mandatory "Can you do better?" speil.

Why even bother? Your post has no content! You suggest that others should be more positive towards drummers, yet in the same breath rip into the creativity of the original poster without even having heard their playing. At least the rest of us have actually heard Portnoy play and can therefore comment on it with something other than empty posturing.

I agree with a lot of what was said in that post. I don't, personally, like Portnoy's playing very much. I think his technique is... err.. a little like swinging a hammer (just watch his snare backbeats!) and he really really over-uses the whole four with the hands/two with the feet business. I don't really find a lot of what he does all that creative, which I think was the initial point being made. That said, he's an astoundingly solid drummer and he's taken his career a very long way - there's a lot to respect there, and I'd be the last to ignore that. As would Cuauhtemoc, judging by his posting. He gives respect where it is due, then makes his point in a clear and positive manner.

And I think you missed the point of what he was saying about Steve Gadd. It's a little unclear in terms of the grammar, but he appears to be contrasting Gadd and Portnoy rather than suggesting they are in some way similar.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Hey finnhiggins, thanks for the defense. I obviously ruffled some feathers even when I thought that I gave MP props for his career and ability to be consistent. I guess some people won't allow others to be subjective and disagree with their point of view. I surely won't discuss religion or politics with this guy.

As far as me, I've been playing drums for 25 years, a local cat from Los Angeles. I've been gigging again as I stopped for a while to finish a Master's Degree, buy a house and become a father while trying to be a good husband to my wife. I don't recall ever saying that I was better than MP although I would say that our styles are quite different. If my critic wants to find something to rip on me he can go to www.audiostreet.net/carlossolorzano and hear some samples from the drumming CD that I released in 2002. It's multi-tracked original tribal drumming songs that I had a blast composing and recording.

Thanks again finnhiggins and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[DogBreath]

I have a huge amount of respect for Portnoy as a composer and performer, and I don't agree with some of what Cuauhtemoc posted, but I have no problem at all with him expressing his opinions in the respectful fashion that he did. Actually it was a perfect example of how to state one's opinion, and I hope that those few of you here who need to can learn to do the same. This is one of the better threads about a "controversial" drummer. I appreciate the thoughtfulness that has gone into some of these posts. You guys are the best, bar none, and it's you who make this place so great. Keep it up, guys.

And Cuauhtemoc, I'm going to check out that link of yours when I get a moment, probably tonight. I'm looking forward to it after your description. Sounds like my kind of stuff.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

The first thing I want to say is that no one can deny that this guy is a great drummer. To handle the time signatures of Dream Theater on a nightly basis is something that must be applauded. I guess that's why he's in the Modern Drummer Hall of Fame.

Aside from that, and with that stated (out of respect for MP), for me, his playing really does nothing for me. I admire him for his consistent execution but I see nothing "original" in his playing. I was also on the Steve Gadd thread as some praised and lauded his playing but for me, when you hear Steve Gadd you know it's Steve Gadd, regardless of what you think of him. He has that feel and that sound and that sense of time that only he has. For me, when I hear Dream Theater, I hear Dream Theater. I think any "talented seasoned professional" could play that gig so long as they have a background in progressive rock.

His double bass work is typical, the 16th note groove or those doubles and triplet licks that everyone does. If you want to hear some great double bass work (other than Donati or Lang, say) you'd hear more interesting work on any ICED EARTH album compared to what Portnoy does. His chops are good, no doubt but again, I don't hear anything original. He seems to play the same stuff that all drummers with big double bass kits play.

But then again, maybe it's just me. I know that this guy has a lot of fans and has a huge influence on so many great drummers. So for that alone, I give him props as I did earlier at the beginning of my "2 cents."


Props on the Iced Earth drummers. I'm listening to Dante's Inferno, it's an immense performance all round. I dislike Jon Schaffer's revolving door lineups however. Richard Christy was a great catch and his playing on Horror Show was truly excellent; pity most of the drums were made lifeless by the production.

As for our friend Mr. Portnoy, what can I say that hasn't already been said? I like the fact that opinion is divided over him. In my opinon he is a great drummer... although his solos are a little flat, his playing with bands is an excellent display of both simplicity and complication at the same time.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Dog Breath, you are the man. Nothing like a good conversation between adults.

And thanks for checking out my site. Hope you like it!

[NUTHA JASON]

well, i've remained quiet oin this thread out of ignorance but now i have had ample opportunity to watch his liquid dream theatre double dvd and i must say that everyone here is right.

in that
1) while he clearly borrows ideas a lot from other drummers (notably peart)
2) he does so in a clever powerful way.
3) he has great foot and hand speed and his time signature chopping and changing are a bit boggling.

he is also quite a cool guy. well spoken on the dvd, friendly and knowledgable. that whole take a drum to the audience and duet with random fans thing at the end of the disc shows that he is a great show man.

in my opinion we are just seeing the tip of the portnoy phenomenon. watch this space. think about it. i wonder what many drummers were saying about peart earlier in his carreer. i bet it wasn't all nice.

my respect to the man.
j

[DogBreath]

Perfectly stated, Jason.

[Zildjian232]

i really dont think of DT as a band ripping off rush, tool, etc. its a band coming in with there own sort of sound in a way. seperating themselves and there styles away from what 90% of bands are doing today. yes MP is greatly influenced by peart, but who here can say that they never played a song or made up a beat that had some certain aspect of your favorite drummer in there. john bonhams doubles and triplets and POWER, danny careys smooth technical ability, etc. we all pick up certain things. so saying that MP is a rip off doent make that much sense.



and i back up what jason said

[CarterB_Junkie]

Just a little correction on the current enormous Potnoy drumkit :

It is not One drumkit but Two that are glued together.

If you take each kit separately, they are not that big !

[Bassman]

If I might be able to interject a different point of view, one from the other half of a rhythm section.

There seems to be a lot of different points of view regarding his technique, technical prowess, and comparison to other drummers. I find this all to be fairly moot. Mike has never laid claim to being the best drummer, the fastest, the cleanest or the most complex. Those monikers were bestowed upon him by fans and fellow musicians. However everyone is a critic, everyone has opinions, and thats why people are here bagging on Mike on a forum as opposed to say.... touring Europe, Japan, putting on clinics, recording instructional DVD's, making tribute albums, collecting endorsement checks from Tama, Promark, Remo, and Sabian.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend I know the first thing about drumming technique but from a bassists perspective, he is the perfect compliment to a great progressive metal band. His playing is tasteful, it's diverse, fits the music to a T, and most of all TIGHT. His comprehension of time signatures is mind boggling. If you don't believe me, go listen to Take The Time off of Images & Words. There are over 22 time signature changes during the song, but you never feel it. Many bands who try to write like that fail miserably, the song sounds chunky and in shambles.

I love Dream Theater, but I'll be the first to say that Mike is no Neil Peart, Vinnie Colaiuta, or Stuart Copeland.

To close, I want to say I find it amusing that people bring up the "ripoff" topic in a thread devoted to a dummer. I will say that one of my largest issues with the band is they let their influences show too much when they write an album. Tool's 46&2 on Home, one that people may not catch is Solsbery Hill by Peter Gabrial on Solitary Shell off of Five Degree of Inner Turbulance.

[toteman2]

I think Mike is a fantastic drummer and deserves all the respect in the world for helping make drumming more popular...I know alot of people get on his case for using the 2/2, 2/4, 2/6, etc hand foot combos alot, but thats just his style...He makes it work for him and fits the music great, so why see it as a negative? thats just my opinion...

As far a chops go--I don't see Mike as a real "choppy" drummer...If you look at his parts, he never really plays anything more than singles, and the occasional double...Sure he is always "busy", but his rudiments never get too complicated...It's how he phrases, orchestrates, and works with odd time that sets him appart and makes him unique...I see a little of Neil in him, but every drummer has a little of someonelse in their playing...I think thats a good thing...

Long live Mike!!!!!!

That shrink and grow section of "Fatal Tragedy" makes my head hurt...

[DogBreath]

Amen, Bassman. Excellent post.

[Thinshells]

Bassman's post nails it. Mike is awesome. I cherish a lot of his work, my favorite is probably Train of Thought and LTE.

I am sick of the petty whining about "ripoff" Where is the line between "ripoff" and "inspiration?" Spastic Ink's 2000 cd sounds almost like Dream Theater. Who cares? It's a cool recording. Dream Theater unabashedly plays RUSH tunes during shows. A nod to one of the preceeding giants, not a ripoff.

Prog rock has a lot of common sounding paradigms and styles. But like other genre's, each drummer to his own.

Mike does some amazing things. I hope one day to master them all. If I could be 1/4 as successful as Mike, I'd be on cloud 9. He is a huge inspiration. I hope to be able to completly rip off his style one day.

And he has one of the greatest kits out there.

Check out my latest must have: Mike Portnoy's "DRUMAVARIUM" DVD

There is a clip of Mike on his mighty TAMA amber vistalite kit from Hammer of the Gods.

http://www.mikeportnoy.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=21

[Bassman]

People keep bringing up Mike's kit and I have to say something about it. Now, I love Mike but his kit, (The Siamese Monster) is a bit excessive. The only reason he has a kit that large is because he has the means acquire one.

Mike's best work (IMHO) is the work he did on Transatlantic. For the Transatlantic kit, he used a smaller (well, smaller for him) 8 piece kit and half the symbols of his current kit. I always find it fascinating to listen to amazing drummers who are used to large drum kits, get behind say a 4 piece or a 3 piece kit. I feel it really hones great creative thinking and improv and you learn to approach your playing from a whole different perspective.

This also correlates over to bass playing. I play a custom 6 string, but at the same time I have an old Sears Steinberger rip off that I only have 2 strings on (tuned E & G). You'd be amazed at how well you can play when you have less.

So for those of you with large drum kits, try taking a couple pieces off and playing. If you have a 5, take it to 3. Leave the snare, one rack tom, and bass drum. Sit down and play for an hour or two, you might scare yourself and actually like it.

[figure_02]

I pretty much agree with thinshells, imo Portnoy is an exellent drummer, and it was first when I bought the Liquid Drum Teather that I really got into drums, now I have a 7 pc Ayotte Custom kit, and I love playing the 2s/4s and 6 patterns :)

his kit: I was really disapointed when he started using the siamese monster, it was just to big, but I loved the Purple Monster, 9 pc kits are beautiful :D

[mikei]

Being a guitar player for nearly 20 years, I used to not appreciate MP. The drum tracks for DT didn't allow me to listen to the music with out it sounding off time and lacking normal structure. It sounded very mechanical. I didn't realize just how much talent it took until recently.

During my guitar days, I would listen to (and still do) to many of the shreading, technical guitarists of the 80's. Namely Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Steve Vai, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman and many others.

People who were not musicians, specifically guitarists, could not truly understand the natural gifts that these people had to be able to play like that. I practiced for 20 years and still cannot even come close to those guys.

I took up drumming about 2 years ago after working with drum machines. Due to my understanding gained for the instrument while programming, it made sense to give it a try.

I do not play the guitar (except to goof around) any longer and now appreciate playing the drums. Therefore, I now am amazed by Portnoy. I have one of his instructional dvds and can watch it over and over. He is now my Yngwie and Paul Gilbert.

My friends who are not musicians do not care for DT at all. They just cannot get into it although they love heavy metal and hard rock. But my musician friends and brother, who has been studying Petrucci for 3 years, love them for what they are able to do. I now listen to them almost every day, and enjoy them thoroughly.

I know that I don't have the natural talent to be a great musician. It just isn't in my genes. I do enjoy learning what I can from the masters and trying to incorporate just a bit into my playing.

[kepplehall]

I really get a kick out of people who denounce MP and DT anytime they are given the chance, the only reason having to be sheer ignorance. I was the "obsessed MP fan" at one time, I really respect and admire the man, he is an inventive and intelligent player. I bought transcription books and all the actual studio videos and learned many many songs note for note and they are some of my favorite songs to play for fun, namely anything off of Awake or A Change Of Seasons. Lately I am not so much the die hard fan I once was, the latest album really let me down. I do think the kits can be a bit excessive, but I also know that playing on a larger kit is a lot of fun and opens up variety wise what you can express. The Siamese Monster is two kits, one smaller kit attached to the side of his more standard set up, he likes to use a smaller kit on some songs and the other kit on other songs, if I had the means to just have two kits on stage and go back and forth I would too. One reason I like being a drummer so much is that "most" other drummers are really nice and respectful of one another. There is tons of music out there that I wouldn't buy or listen to but I can at least respect what they achieved. If you compare the forums of drummers to guitarists you can see a drastic ego change, many guitarists are really harsh to one another like it is some kind of stupid race. Mike Portnoy may not be the technique titan that Thomas Lang is or the varied monster that Sean Reinert is or as fast as that crazy mofo from Theory In Practice and it is worhtless to compare any of them, but you know what, he is a damn good drummer and a hell of a nice guy, not to mention his instructional videos are right up there with Steve Smith's in being well done and being able to really get something out of it, I would certainly buy the man a beer.

[finnhiggins]

I really get a kick out of people who denounce MP and DT anytime they are given the chance, the only reason having to be sheer ignorance.

Oh, come off it. There's plenty of reasons to dislike either beyond ignorance - Portnoy's technique is pretty bizarre, his drum kit is excessive, and as for DT... well... yes. Men in leather pants making "one foot on the monitor" poses while shredding or singing lyrics like "As a child, I thought I could live without pain" about a quarter tone away from the right pitch. Enough said.

Portnoy is a very capable drummer and most of DT can play (LaBrie aside. Ugh) but they are way, way, way overrated by many young musicians. There are plenty of people playing harder, more original, more involved pieces of music out there with much better technique. They just don't get the same degree of worship that DT do.

[Thinshells]

Oh, come off it. There's plenty of reasons to dislike either beyond ignorance - Portnoy's technique is pretty bizarre, his drum kit is excessive, and as for DT... well... yes. Men in leather pants making "one foot on the monitor" poses while shredding or singing lyrics like "As a child, I thought I could live without pain" about a quarter tone away from the right pitch. Enough said.

Portnoy is a very capable drummer and most of DT can play (LaBrie aside. Ugh) but they are way, way, way overrated by many young musicians. There are plenty of people playing harder, more original, more involved pieces of music out there with much better technique. They just don't get the same degree of worship that DT do.

Not to mention, despite Mike's array of abilities, he has yet to put togeather a decent solo. I like Mike a lot, but his solos disappointment given what he is capable of. He defianately should not be stratified in all areas.

[kepplehall]

Hey I never said I worshipped him or that hes the best out there, come on, do not make an arguement out of nothing, I merely said he was a cool guy and a great drummer. I personally do not like DT for a lot of reasons, one major one being the singer, another being the really overused common themes from album to album (sick of hearing the words "glass prison") and another being the simplistic guitar riffs. And I agree that his solos are pretty lame, he has said himself that he does not even like doing them and often times he will include getting audience members on stage to interact during most his "solo" time. It is true there is a lot of people out there that do not get noticed that should who possess more striking abilities, but that is life, I know of a lot of obscure prog/death metal drummers that can do a wider variety of skills. Portnoy is great for drumming in general though, he has inspired a lot of people and I think that is great, I have run across many drummers that started playing because of or partly because of his influence. There are guys out there currently that I enjoy listening to more, for example Martin Lopez from Opeth, I have followed them since they began and have seen Martin's evolution since he joined on their 3rd album, their latest album Ghost Reveries has some brilliant drumming on it, but I will always respect Portnoy.

[Drumitup]

If u dont like LaBrie i suggest u listen 2 Liquid Tension Experiment no lyrics just music its pretty cool.


http://www.dailyvault.com/liquidtension_s-t.jpg

[giantantreal]

Hey I never said I worshipped him or that hes the best out there, come on, do not make an arguement out of nothing, I merely said he was a cool guy and a great drummer. I personally do not like DT for a lot of reasons, one major one being the singer, another being the really overused common themes from album to album (sick of hearing the words "glass prison") and another being the simplistic guitar riffs. And I agree that his solos are pretty lame, he has said himself that he does not even like doing them and often times he will include getting audience members on stage to interact during most his "solo" time. It is true there is a lot of people out there that do not get noticed that should who possess more striking abilities, but that is life, I know of a lot of obscure prog/death metal drummers that can do a wider variety of skills. Portnoy is great for drumming in general though, he has inspired a lot of people and I think that is great, I have run across many drummers that started playing because of or partly because of his influence. There are guys out there currently that I enjoy listening to more, for example Martin Lopez from Opeth, I have followed them since they began and have seen Martin's evolution since he joined on their 3rd album, their latest album Ghost Reveries has some brilliant drumming on it, but I will always respect Portnoy.

Very true...but he had a kit that is made fun of so much on the forums....he has turned into a joke.

[Thinshells]

Very true...but he had a kit that is made fun of so much on the forums....he has turned into a joke.

I find it amazing self centered, and envious of people who decide they are going to slam his kit, or any large kit for that matter. There are some folks that are serious kit-nazi's walking around. ARRRGHH!!!!! if it's bigger than two peice it's too big!!!! Arrggh!!! it's over 4-piece! It's totally useless!!! Arrrghh!!! That kit doesn't look like its set up exactly the way I want it to be!!!! Grrr....

I am glad Mike has that huge, almost surreal kit. It's like he is in his office...

http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/GRAPHICS/portnoyprimecuts.jpg

[zildjian_dude101]

Has anyone seen the the Dreamtheater- Live In Budakon DVD? The drum solo on it is amazing. Any ways, does neone know what kind of heads he's using on his toms? They sound awsome. Help?

[Peter North]

I'm pretty sure he's a clear pinstripe guy, at least during that time he was.

[Thinshells]

Clear pinstripes. That is an *AWESOME* DVD. BTW: there is already a Portnoy thread. Don't be surprised if this one is e-magically teleported into that thread.

[y0avz]

Personally, i dont go crazy over his solos, i dont find it to be very musical,no more than a showoff.
but thats just me (:

[Shutcory----->]

I agree y0avz...

But I consider Mike's a great drummer cause no one can make a composition like him.... Thats the reason he's one of the top drummers....
Too many drummers can have his technique and skills, but nobody can make music like mike, one of my instructors told me once: "You must focus on your music, you can be the best musician, but that isnt enought to make good music".

[jackothedrummer1]

Personally, Mike Portnoy to me is one of the most involved drummers in the drumming commmunity. He has actually sent me a signed photograph when I ordered his instructional DVD from his website because they shipped it too late for Christmas time. Super nice guy!

As for his kit, why does it matter what the size of ones kit is? He uses all of it on his kit (except the Crotales on his Purple Monster, which I agree shouldn't be there). The truth is, he wants multiple sounds, lots of variety. You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit. Personally, if I had someone to move and set my kit up for every show, I would do the exact same thing. Why would someone judge whether a drummer is a good/bad drummer by the size of his kit? That's just as bad as someone saying, "Oh, he has long hair, he must be a stoner/idiot/homosexual!" So what if his solos aren't the best, his song compositions are what I truly enjoy. I mean some drummers like T.B. from a certain punk band that really isn't that great, gets a lot of praise. I personally believe Mr. Portnoy to be a better player and song writer then this T.B. character who will remain unidentified by me....
EDIT (NOT Terry Bozzio)

There new album was disappointing.

[Thinshells]

Personally, Mike Portnoy to me is one of the most involved drummers in the drumming commmunity. He has actually sent me a signed photograph when I ordered his instructional DVD from his website because they shipped it too late for Christmas time. Super nice guy!

As for his kit, why does it matter what the size of ones kit is? He uses all of it on his kit (except the Crotales on his Purple Monster, which I agree shouldn't be there). The truth is, he wants multiple sounds, lots of variety. You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit. Personally, if I had someone to move and set my kit up for every show, I would do the exact same thing. Why would someone judge whether a drummer is a good/bad drummer by the size of his kit? That's just as bad as someone saying, "Oh, he has long hair, he must be a stoner/idiot/homosexual!" So what if his solos aren't the best, his song compositions are what I truly enjoy. I mean some drummers like T.B. from a certain punk band that really isn't that great, gets a lot of praise. I personally believe Mr. Portnoy to be a better player and song writer then this T.B. character who will remain unidentified by me....
EDIT (NOT Terry Bozzio)

There new album was disappointing.

1) My favorite DT album is Train of thought. Octavarium can't touch it IMO.

2) Mike, Neal, Nikko are a rare breed. Tthey use large kits and the look at home with them. I like that. 98% of the players out there use a 4-6pc kit. These guys operate thier own way.

[finnhiggins]

You can only go so far with a conventionally sized kit.

The rest of your post was pretty reasonable, but not this bit. I'd argue there's plenty of drummers who've gone a lot further than Portnoy on a conventionally sized kit. A few examples that spring to mind:

* Buddy Rich
* Joe Morello
* Elvin Jones
* Tony Williams
* Joey Baron

etc.

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.

[Thinshells]

I just ordered the Drumavarium and Drums of thought dvd's. I really like Mike's "in the studio" videos.

[Thinshells]

The rest of your post was pretty reasonable, but not this bit. I'd argue there's plenty of drummers who've gone a lot further than Portnoy on a conventionally sized kit. A few examples that spring to mind:

* Buddy Rich
* Joe Morello
* Elvin Jones
* Tony Williams
* Joey Baron

etc.

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.

All of those guys nail solos that run rings around Mikes.

[zildjian_dude101]

still an amazing drummer, none the less. cant deny it

[ewanlaing]

I am glad Mike has that huge, almost surreal kit. It's like he is in his office...
i hear you. i use a four peice, but i have nothing but respect for guys who can master kits like that. and he MASTERS it. same with bozzio.

[Thinshells]

i hear you. i use a four peice, but i have nothing but respect for guys who can master kits like that. and he MASTERS it. same with bozzio.

I like watching his videos. The way he constructs his part. He makes playing all of that gear look easy.

[jackothedrummer1]

More drums doesn't equal more headroom in terms of your ability to expand what can be done with the instrument.
Completely agreed. I simply meant by terms of timbre and variety. I mean you can only have so many sounds out of 4 drums and so many sounds out 3 cymbals (technically 4). I believe that as far as technical ability, those guys are absolutely incredible. I'll try to be more clear next time.

[evrard101]

I support this drummer for 5 years! I love him!
Lots of people (and drummer) critisize him. But He can play all styles of music!
He is an excellent showman!
I love Dream theater, because all albums are differents.
Before, his playing seems like Neil Peart, the drum solo of 1993 - with the drum solo of neil peart on YYZ on the live of "exit stage..left"
Mike show us that, we can play like a drummer, and we can be recognized.

[rendezvous_drummer]

The perfect drummer for Dream Theatre. I saw a video of his at a clinic in a dallas music store and it was phenominal. Would love to have a go at his kit indeed.

[GAZZASCOTLAND]

seen portnoy twice live now....he is a very good drummer,but....as far as the wierd and wonderful time sigs go,sure,it all sounds complicated and clever,which it is ti a certain extent but,if you are writning the stuff,rehearsing for months then recording it,you can come up with any configuration of time sigs....breaking some of his stuff down would be hard,of course it would....its like a crossword..u gotta get inside his way of thinking,but once you learn it,i wouldnt say its the most difficult drumming to copy...he has very fast feet which is an art from in its own right...there are good d/b players.and there are excellent d/b...i think portnoy comes into the the excellent double bass category,at least as far as speed is concerned...i once rehearsed with a band for 6 months,mainly writing...the guitarist was dream theatre crazy....we tried a lot of different time sigs,and believe it or not,once you know where the song is going,you can sound pretty technical..we showcased the set and a lot of people were asking how we knew where we were with the songs and stuff...easy!!! we wrote it and practised like demons......something proffessional musicians have on their side that we amateurs who work for a living dont have as much of.....so try it guys...get ur band together,come up with something weird and complicated and get you mates to listen...see if they find it easy to pick up....oh!1 one more thing....his speed on bass drum is also helped by playing at mass volume so less effort required...he is well miked up live....a very good drummer,but there are lots better

[Thinshells]

I received two MP dvd's:

Drums of Thought and Drumavarium.

Neither are instructional dvd's. Both are really cool drum-cam videos that show "the making of" albums. Mike even plays his amber Tama acrylic (Bonzo) kit.

It's funny to see Mike clean shaven with short hair. After years of long hair and goatee's like the wildman drummer, now he looks like "Bob " that you go bowling with.

I must admit, I like Train of thought and his drum dvd for that album *much* more than octavarium.

Both are entertaining, nonetheless with isolated drum-only tracks.

[candlemass]

He sure is a great drummer, but it's easier to grasp his playing because it's very mathematical, not so swingful like other drummers. His songs are VERY easy to tab down if you have a little patience.

I'm gonna see him tonight with Dream Theater! :D

[lfdy]

Well, let's just say there's a reason he received all of those awards by Modern Drummer :)...

He's just one of the best drummers out there on this moment.

I just recently started listening to Dream Theater and LTE, and he pulls some really nice stuff off in those bands.

Mike Portnoy rocks.

[Thunderfm]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

[lfdy]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

He never said he takes riffs from his idols, and then uses them directly in his work. He did however say that he gets a great deal of inspiration out of his idols, and what is wrong with that?

And yeah, Mike's drumming is sometimes really complex...but in some songs he just lays the groove down.

[Thinshells]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.
IOW: you don't like Mike because he's not exactly like the drummers that you do like. Makes sense. I think.
'
">Gasp!<... Mike needs to simplfy his playing to Meg White's level..no wait... Mike doesn't sound a thing like Zigaboo Modeliste. I know Zigaboo's style would be perfect for dream theater's music! Arggghhh.... no syncopated grooves to be found in 'metropolis' or 'as I am'.' grrr. Mike should be fired and replaced by Zigaboo or Stanton Moore..."

Psst... your POST is just glorified bashing...

[GAZZASCOTLAND]

i said before in this topic that portnoys playing is usually easy to break down once you have heard it a few times...as far as soloing goes,he is good but,nothing outstanding...just look at drummerworld video clips of solos....see weckl,gadd,vinnie,buddy etc...then look at mikes offering...different styles i know,but mikes is pretty boring after these guys...

[candlemass]

I am not a fan of Portnoy. I find his drumming to be far too complex with no real interesting syncopations or bell work. His use of the double pedal or double bass drum in his case is boring and equal to that of metal drummers (which I dont like). I think he's too much of a show off. Plus I read an article where he openly admits to not creating any of his own material and just basically taking riffs from all of his "idols" and using them in his own work. Which put me right off him. No doubt about it, he is a good drummer. But I am of the opinion that hes a glorified bashing metalhead.

Well, like it or not, he's a METAL DRUMMER. Dream Theater is a PROG METAL band, so you have said nothing.

Plus, there's a saying that goes "copying one is plagiarism; copying many is research". There's nothing wrong in taking inspiration from others.

[tintin]

i was a big fan of mike once. but then i guess i listed to dream theater just TOO MUCH!
it was obvious to point out mike style after awhile with that hand x2 feet x2 thing.
that was the first thing i practiced when i first got my double pedals. and. it took me like half an hour to play it as speeds as fast as the tracks that has those rolls.
it is clear that mike's playing has become kinda stale and more to the metal side. well duhh. he is the metal head among his band.

but i kinda like those little cute "clown walking over a tight rope" kind of tunes that dream theater likes to play once in awhile. it kinda makes things light and interesting apart from the other songs like "Panic Attack" from the latest album which is kinda a disppointment to me. hmm.. u can call it evolution or watever. personally i feel that. dream theater is losing that X factor it had years ago when it was playin albums like Images and Words.

u can to give mike some credit cuz those hand x2/ feet x2 rolls are pretty decent and clean. though.. many drummers can do it too. haha. well mike is an interesting drummer. but please, i suggest that u move on. i mean. don't just stick to mike. though he has pretty sweet chops and can play as if there are 2 drummers. i recently got the hang of symphony X and i find that the drummer plays much simpler stuff and allows the music to breathe. i think that's very important in music composition rather than dumping tons of demi-semi quaver rolls throughout 5min. i'm not saying that mike does this thing though.
of course. being a seasonal drummer. mike does know when to play this and when not to play that. but i guess.. sometimes he just gets carried away? =)

cheers. no offence to portnoy fans. i was one of u guys too! haha!

[Thinshells]

i was a big fan of mike once. but then i guess i listed to dream theater just TOO MUCH!
it was obvious to point out mike style after awhile with that hand x2 feet x2 thing.
that was the first thing i practiced when i first got my double pedals. and. it took me like half an hour to play it as speeds as fast as the tracks that has those rolls.
it is clear that mike's playing has become kinda stale and more to the metal side. well duhh. he is the metal head among his band.

but i kinda like those little cute "clown walking over a tight rope" kind of tunes that dream theater likes to play once in awhile. it kinda makes things light and interesting apart from the other songs like "Panic Attack" from the latest album which is kinda a disppointment to me. hmm.. u can call it evolution or watever. personally i feel that. dream theater is losing that X factor it had years ago when it was playin albums like Images and Words.

u can to give mike some credit cuz those hand x2/ feet x2 rolls are pretty decent and clean. though.. many drummers can do it too. haha. well mike is an interesting drummer. but please, i suggest that u move on. i mean. don't just stick to mike. though he has pretty sweet chops and can play as if there are 2 drummers. i recently got the hang of symphony X and i find that the drummer plays much simpler stuff and allows the music to breathe. i think that's very important in music composition rather than dumping tons of demi-semi quaver rolls throughout 5min. i'm not saying that mike does this thing though.
of course. being a seasonal drummer. mike does know when to play this and when not to play that. but i guess.. sometimes he just gets carried away? =)

cheers. no offence to portnoy fans. i was one of u guys too! haha!

I can buy your post more so than someone that just posts a thinly disguised...ok, blatently overt bashing. I understand why you'd get sick of Mike. I have never been impressed by his drum solos. But I have to look at his overall body of work.

DT,LTE, Transatlantic, OSI, yellow matter custard, Hammer of the Gods, Neil Morse, and so on.

[antvez]

I read all the titles and found nothing on him so here goes.

I love his technique. I used to listen to all the "normal" stuff till I heard him. And it seems all I want to listen to is Dream Theater now. I have played for awhile, and most drummers have certain niches, or habits. Once you figure out what they are doing you can play it. I usually can play a song the 2nd or 3rd time I hear it, But his stuff takes weeks, months on some of it, just to figure out the numbers behind what he is doing.What drives me crazy is most people( non-players) look at me like Im crazy when I start to try to explain what he is doing. They are like, man he screwed that up, and Im like, No he just dropped a beat, He'll pick it up in a minute.His drumming has texture, all the normal stuff is boring now. Can anyone tell me of a comparable band, with all the technicality of DT?What do you guys think of Mike? Sorry if this is a repost.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Mike_Portnoy.html

can anyone tell me the name of the song he is playing in that video with Dream Theater?

[lfdy]

Buy many cymbals and three bassdrums and then you have Portnoy in a nut shell.

I actually see him lots of times with 4 bass drums.

And you really shouldn't think that little of Portnoy :)

[Jalmar]

I actually see him lots of times with 4 bass drums.

And you really shouldn't think that little of Portnoy :)


Well, actually, I am only exaggerating this understatement, Portnoy knows how to play and I respect him for that. But even though, who needs three or four bassdrums?

[lfdy]

Well, actually, I am only exaggerating this understatement, Portnoy knows how to play and I respect him for that. But even though, who needs three or four bassdrums?

True...

But hey, if you get them for free :) Same for his cymbals...

[antvez]

anyone? the name of the song in the video?

[ewanlaing]

that song is called "hell's kitchen" i beleive. it was a rythm play along track.

[antvez]

cool, thanks! that last part part was stuck in my head all day.

[Robin]

Hey everybody. Here is a link to a video off Dream Theater when are jamming for their album Train Of Thought that was released in 2003. Cool stuff and you get see alot of Portnoy and he's also telling about the writing.

mms://wm.elektra.com/dream_theater_bonus/nyc_hi.wmv

[Tommy Lee is #1]

I was never impressed with him until I saw the solo at the drum clinic on drummer world. For once I was impressed.

[toteman2]

I was never impressed with him until I saw the solo at the drum clinic on drummer world. For once I was impressed.

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

[Stu_Strib]

I just borrowed a copy of Live at Budokhan. I'll be back soon with my take.

[Thinshells]

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

Neil Peart states on his new video "anatomy of a drum solo"

-Some drummers are not soloists. They express everything within the context of the music. Sometimes the solos are nothing more than a collection of dry rudiments. I always thought there were drummers that didn't need to solo, because they said everything already.

[lfdy]

Really? It is the exact opposite for me. IMO the solo at the clinic here on drummerworld by Mike is one of the worst solo's I've ever sceen him play on video. I'm far more impressed by his work with Dream Theater and LTE. I think he just shines inside the music, rather than solo's.

Yeah, i fully agree.

I don't really like Portnoy solo's either, but i do like his playing in DT and LTE.

[Jalmar]

I must say that the opening fill to "Paradigm Shift" with Dream Theater is extremely creative and well played.

Even if he isn't my favourite drummer, he can still put up a few good fills.

[lfdy]

I must say that the opening fill to "Paradigm Shift" with Dream Theater is extremely creative and well played.

Even if he isn't my favourite drummer, he can still put up a few good fills.

Yeah, i like that fill a lot too...

[Stu_Strib]

I just borrowed a copy of Live at Budokhan. I'll be back soon with my take.
(quoting myself aside)

Yeah so I watched Live at Budokhan and I have to say...

Pretty damned impressive.

The usual Portnoy nitpicks didn't really bother me. So what if he uses the hand hand foot foot fill too much, and so what if he stands up and points, and spins sticks, and overplays from time to time? His time and pocket was impeccable. He actually made the normally mechanical sounding "metal" bits sound musical. Killer drum sound too.

I didn't know he sang too!

[zildjian_dude101]

Someone with similar technique as Mike is probably Neal Peart or the Rev from Avenged Sevenfold. Both bands play prog.

[lfdy]

Yeah, he sings...

I've only seen him doing it on 'Fatal Tragedy' though...

[zildjian_dude101]

He sings in a lot of songs. More in their newer stuff than in their older stuff. For example, As I Am, The Test That Stumped Them All, and In the Name of God, to name a few.

[lfdy]

He sings in a lot of songs. More in their newer stuff than in their older stuff. For example, As I Am, The Test That Stumped Them All, and In the Name of God, to name a few.

Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.

[DTportnoyDT]

Ah, i didn't know that. I'll have to check it out.

He also sings in New Mellinnium, Home, and Lines in the Sand, to name a few.

[tymile]

i, as well, expected more positive feedback on mike portnoy.

dream theater as a whole definitely does have an amazing amount of talent (with the exception of the singer). i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.

dream theater does not rip off rush. there may be one or two songs that sound alike, or whatever, but, as a whole, it cant be said that dream theater rips off rush. when was the last time rush did an overture? and a honky-tonk breakdown? ive heard it said many times that neal peart is one of the only people who could outplay mike portnoy. he cant. mike portnoy could play rush songs, but i cant imagine peart playing DT songs. and dream theater as a whole has a much better sound, and is way more technical. (with the exception of the singers... both of which could... use work?)

and, i completely agree with whats posted above me, with the exception of the statement: "I guess Peart is a much better musician, but Mike is a better drummer." Mike is a better drummer. however, he is also the better musician. mike portnoy writes at least half of the lyrics and a third of the music on all of the dream theater albums. he also plays with neal morse, transatlantic, and liquid tension experiment. aside from that, in many DT songs they blend so many different types and styles of music. mike portnoy is an incredibly diverse drummer, and can play a variety of styles without a problem.

peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential, but portnoy tops him.

[finnhiggins]

i actualy find it amazing that so many people have so much negative feedback on him.


Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.


dream theater does not rip off rush.


They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)


peart definitely is an amazing drummer and has potential

I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.

[tymile]

i can see where youre coming from. a lot of people dont like the whole technical idea and are much more into the groove of it. but i think that portnoy definitely is a more technical drummer than peart, whether you think technical outweighs the passion and the feel of the music, i think thats a matter of personal choice.

as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.

and i agree that mike portnoy takes influence from neal peart. but that doesnt mean that he cant be a better drummer than him. but, again, that comes down to personal choice - which style appeals more personally to you.

and i guess saying neal peart had "potential" was misused. what i meant was he had a lot of talent, but mike portnoy is still better.

[King Crimson]

Portnoy is really good.

But he will never equal the popularity that Neil has.

[finnhiggins]

as for ripping off other bands, though... dream theaters first album debuted in 1989, while rage wasnt even together until 1992. not saying that they couldnt rip off rage in their later years, but they had a lot of material by that time without even ever hearing of the band. and i have never heard anything that sounds like a tool or pantera ripoff, nor have i ever heard anyone say that before.


You've got your dates a bit wrong with RATM, IIRC their first album was out in 1991 which put them working together as a group well earlier than that.

But that's a bit beside the point. You've never heard anything that sounds like a Tool or Pantera ripoff?

Oh boy have I got an MP3 for you...
(http://www.setcreative.com/content/media/dreamtheater-borrowing-bits.mp3)
What you hear in this is:

"By Demons Be Driven" by Pantera vs "The Test That Stumped Them All" by DT
"46&2" by Tool vs "Home" by DT.
"46&2" by Tool (again!) vs "The Great Debate" by DT.

There's more, of course. The clip from "Home" is shortly followed by a fairly obvious RATM crib, etc. But this goes for a minute and a half, which seems about long enough.

Worth mentioning is that not only are these cribs very similar in terms of actual notes and phrasing, they're also very similar in their purpose and positions in the songs. "By Demons Be Driven" has the chorus riff stolen for a chorus, "Home" uses the intro bass line from 46&2 for its intro bass line, "The Great Debate" uses a strikingly similar section to the one in "46&2" for a similar purpose at a similar position structurally.

[OllieM]

joe morris, all i can say about u is your a mug!!! HOW CAN U WALK OUT OF A DT CONCERT GOD DAMMIT!!! i saw them last october, i then triued to get tickets for the second night but failed :( anyways mike portnoy is true talent, anyone who takes digs at his kits are stupid, because if u look at the new albino monster, i will see its actually quite simple... on one side 3 toms, 2 floors, 2 bass, 1 snare (octoban and timbales) and some other goodies. on the other he has 1 tom 1 bass 2 floors!!! no octobans, no gong bass... take a look at this...

http://www.tama.com/artists/featured/portnoy.asp

[OllieM]

Eh, I just really can't take the whole approach. It all seems very stiff and intellectualised, while similarly dense and complex playing like you'll see out of Danny Carey or Thomas Haake has more flow, purpose and passion. IMHO.



They have clearly ripped off Tool, RATM and Pantera though ;)



I think you have to credit him with a lot more than potential these days, he's something of a legend in a way that Portnoy certainly isn't yet. Peart defined a style of playing, if anything Portnoy has merely refined it a little.

well u dont no much, they havent ripped of any band...

they make the same kind of music, and portnoy has recreated the old, which the younger generation havnt heard much of, and brought it to them, think of it as covering up old music by making it sound new, if it wasnt for dt i wouldnt never of nown about rush or tool... BUT one thing that we can all be sure about it, that dt are better than tool and ratm because there still together!!!!

[Stu_Strib]

Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.

The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.

Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".

Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.

I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?

I watched Budokhan again and found yet another thing impressive about Portnoy. I would encourage all aspiring metal wannabees to watch how he plays his cymbals. He doesn't bash them in with huge strokes, yet they are still loud and powerful sounding. hmmmm, I wonder how many cymbals Mike breaks, and what his opinion is about "hard hitters".

[finnhiggins]

Well finn, considering the odd meter of both of those tunes, there really isn't much room for too much creativity, and still having it sound like rock music. Prog is prog.


Are you kidding? There's no fewer ways of playing rock in 7/8 (the case for most of the stuff here) than in 4/4. Not only that, even if there was then there's a limitation on how you can phrase there's still no excuse for basically playing the same parts. Which is happening in all of these examples. When Tom Morello swiped a bit of "Walk This Way" on the first Audioslave album I seriously doubt that anybody would say "Oh, he's limited by the fact that he's playing in 4/4 so he had to make a riff using the same notes in a very similar order and rhythm". They said "Hey, that's Walk This Way!".

EDIT: Also, most of those aren't actually in the same time sig as the original, or if they are it's 4/4. "The test that stumped them all" is in 7+7+6 while the Pantera track is in 4/4, both the bass riffs are 4/4, and the other 46&2 crib is in 4/4 as well. No excuse there!


The difference between DT and Pantera (I like Pantera better, btw), is that DT actually thinks of the stuff and writes it out in musical form and structure. Pantera just takes a hit off the old bong and says, yeah, that sounds really good, let's do that. I'm not saying that makes DT better, I'm just saying, it makes them less likely to be the one's ripping off anyone else.


Or it would, if every album I've listened to so far didn't have a lot of very obvious cribs from albums that members of DT regularly reference as influences. Portnoy has referenced Pantera and Tool as influences in a number of interviews, and talked about them in some depth. I doubt he's unfamiliar with the songs in question here, given that they're two albums that are considered by many to be the creative apex of each of the given bands...


Also the indian sounding riffs (or whatever it is) are fairly stereo-typical sounding eastern music. It is just a coincidence that they sound similar. Our western ears hear that kind of music and it "all just kinda sounds the same".


No way. That's not an "indian sounding" riff, that's a Tool-sounding riff. If you can find me an Indian song that sounds like that I'll be very surprised, I listen to quite a lot of Indian and Middle Eastern music and am usually pretty capable of telling a riff in a given genre apart from another one. Not only that, both riffs are played on the same instrument (bass) in a similar neck position (up near the 12th fret) and are used for the same purpose in the song (intro).

As for the coincidence idea.. I'd maybe buy that, if these kind of things didn't keep turning up. For crying out loud, there's two cribs from the same song (46&2) off one of Mike Portnoy's favourite albums (Aenima). I don't think Portnoy would hear those bits and not think of Tool, given that he clearly loves the album (read some interviews), the DT stuff came out subsequent to that album and they sound nearly exactly alike. If somebody in my band played a riff like that I'd say "That's a Tool rip-off!". You think I know that album better than Mike does?

That's not saying that Tool are fantastically original and DT are clearly slavish imitations. I can show you a similar example of Tool ripping off Rush (intro to Lateralus = swung version of bridge from Test For Echo on guitar) but they do it considerably less regularly and in a much less obvious manner. They don't, for example, grab whole sections of songs, change a couple of notes and then use them for the same function in their own song.

The worst DT offender yet is that one from "The Great Debate" which not only borrows phrasing but also vocal inflections (I can virtually hear Maynard James Keenan singing "Life-to-save-life" like that, and it's not a very typical vocal approach for James LaBrie) and even structure - they use a riff under the vocals in a similar way, then punch it out staccato into a stop. The whole song is very Tool-influenced, but that bit is just directly lifted.


Now the most important part. Even if DT DID rip it off, the DT interpretations are much more lavish and interesting sounding, while the Tool part is more commercial and radio-friendly sounding.


We'll have to disagree on this point. I think the DT versions sound like cheesy prog nonsense while the originals are actually quite good. But which you like better is a bit beside the point, they're clearly grabbing whole chunks of stuff. If they want to play covers, why don't they play covers?


I don't get your point about Tool having such great chart success and DT doesn't...so what?


That was just in response to the suggestion that DT are "Bringing music like that to the masses". It's arguable that DT bring a lot less of that kind of music to the masses given that Tool's last album entered at #1 in the charts and DT's was what... #42 or something?

No other argument. It just seemed like a silly idea. "Oh yeah, that #42 album was totally bringing one of the better known songs from that other multi-platinum album to the masses, and stuff".

[Stu_Strib]

Actual time signatures aside, any odd meters and phrasing generally sound homogenous to me on these prog rock albums.

As for the Indian stuff. It probably isn't anywhere near authentic. It is more likely what Tool, DT, and the West in general THINKS indian music sounds like.

Coincidentally, Tool's logo is written with Arabic script, but it says "lamamel" in Arabic. To the untrained, it looks all middle-easterny though. That's my point about the Indian stuff.

I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?

[finnhiggins]

I dunno. Your points are well put, but I just find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that a purist (and, yes, pretentious at times) Prog band that are all HIGHLY trained musicians at great schools would look to Pantera and Tool for inspiration. Maybe these are not-so-subtle tips 'o the hat to the more mainstream guys? Even then, why wouldn't they just rip-off the more mainstream riffs, like Walk, or Cowboys?

They're quite open about being inspired by both bands, actually. Go have a read of some old Portnoy interviews.

What do you find harder to believe - that DT would be comfortable doing the occasional quote of other band's stuff or that they would be oblivious to the fact that they're lifting whole sections from some of their favourite albums?

EDIT: Oh, and given that Tool are about the nearest thing out there to popular 70s-style prog (along with The Mars Volta) I'd be quite surprised if DT weren't into them. DT sound like an 80s prog band, Tool sound like a 70s prog band mixed up with The Melvins.

[Stu_Strib]

I guess I can't see it objectively, because I really can't get into Tool at all (forced myself to listen to every LP and EP). I can ALMOST get into Dream Theater, until after the 20th minute of the second song, when they've already played every lick 3 times already. My brother loves them. I think he's lack of musical knowledge gives him a false sense of 'awesomeness' about them (that goes for any Prog band really).

Good analogy about 70s prog vs. 80s prog.

One thing for sure, Prog folks need to work on their vocals.

[DTportnoyDT]

I honestly don't know why people argue about these things. It's a matter of opinion, and it's darn near impossible to change someone's opinion. Give it a rest.

As for my opinion, I see it as: there are so many bands and so many songs out there, someone's bound to copy someone else by complete accident. The fact that DT is influenced by many types of music and plays such a wide variety only increases their chance of these accidental copies.

My 2 cents

[tymile]

exactly.

and to not respect a band, or any of the members of that band, because their music seems similar to that of another band, is rediculous.

dt portnoy is completely right.

[Stu_Strib]

Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).

[finnhiggins]

Yeah, but I don't get the whole "DT is influenced by Tool" comment. DT has been around for so much longer, it's almost sacrilege. Can a much older band be 'influenced' by bands that came after them, in the same vein? If anything, I'd say it would be an homage to the younger Tool and likes.

This would be like saying the Stones are influenced by the Hives. (maybe not that extreme, but hopefully my point is understood).

DT hasn't been around for "So much longer" than most of these bands. DT had their first album out in... what... 88? 89? Pantera had albums out around that time, albeit hair-metal. Tool's first EP came out in '92, and they hit it big in '94. DT's first notable album (Images & Words) was what... 91? There's 3-4 years in it, tops.

As for the idea that an older band can't possibly be influenced by newer acts, how do you explain Miles Davis? He was already a legend fully decades before his interest in rock music drove him to start playing fusion in the late 60s. A key influence in this was Hendrix, who was clearly a considerably younger act than Miles. Similarly, Radiohea