Spurs & floor tom legs without rubber feet, issues?

[keep it simple]

I've never played on a hard surface without a rug. Irrespective of how good the rubber feet/ends are, I still get creep of some description, & I certainly wouldn't play on a decorative hard surface, creep or no creep, out of respect for the venue owner. Anyhow, this got me thinking if rubber feet are redundant. They are in K.I.S's world, how about yours? (there is a reason for me asking this other than curiosity)

[larryace]

I wouldn't say they're redundant. If they weren't there, I think there would be some backlash. I think they are sort of required to be there for the people who actually depend on them. How many drummers out of 100 depend on them I have no clue. People kinda expect them I think. I agree that they're useless, I'm always on a rug, but I do have my rubber feet attached, just because I never took them off. Spikes can go through thin rugs and scratch floors.

[BacteriumFendYoke]

A very good point, Andy. I think it's time I invested in a large carpet offcut with some backing before I start gigging again!

I've never found rubber feet particularly effective. I've all but eliminated them from all (three) of the bass drums that I own. One of the bass drums doesn't even have 'native' spurs - it has the old-fashioned hoop-mounted spurs and a spiked 'stopper'. It works very well on carpet even though the spurs are relatively puny.

[keep it simple]

Spikes can go through thin rugs and scratch floors.All very good points Larry. If we're to go this way, the issue of spikes going through thin rugs has already been factored into a potential design.


I've never found rubber feet particularly effective. I've all but eliminated them from all (three) of the bass drums that I own.
That's what got me thinking, I just have no use for the damn things, & if we can do away with them, it opens up some simple but effective floor tom leg advancement. It also looks damn elegant too :)

[BacteriumFendYoke]

I can see another Andy patent about to happen.

Incidentally, I can see there being a market for a double-pronged spur. Rather than just the single spike, the spur can have two spurs that are forked, with maybe a 6-8mm distance between the two prongs. The main disadvantage would be telescoping them back into the housing but if you keep the two prongs fairly short and only diverged them maybe 20mm from the main shaft then that's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

The advantage would be a greater grip on the surface and more widely distributing the load being borne by each individual spike which means less damage to the carpeted surface. The spur would be essentially identical except for the spike.

[Anduin]

The rubber feet are useful to cover the steel spikey bits when in transit so they don’t trash whatever they’re rubbing against.

[keep it simple]

The rubber feet are useful to cover the steel spikey bits when in transit so they don’t trash whatever they’re rubbing against.That's an interesting point (excuse the pun). Do you screw the rubber foot back down over the spike for transit, or do you mean the rubber inherently prevents damage left in its retracted position? The design we're thinking of would be applied to spurs & floor tom legs that are removed from the drum for transit purposes (i.e. stored in a hardware case).


I can see another Andy patent about to happen.

Incidentally, I can see there being a market for a double-pronged spur. Rather than just the single spike, the spur can have two spurs that are forked, with maybe a 6-8mm distance between the two prongs. The main disadvantage would be telescoping them back into the housing but if you keep the two prongs fairly short and only diverged them maybe 20mm from the main shaft then that's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

The advantage would be a greater grip on the surface and more widely distributing the load being borne by each individual spike which means less damage to the carpeted surface. The spur would be essentially identical except for the spike.Good thinking there Batman, but production of that design would almost certainly entail a casting process, & for a number of reasons, I'm trying to avoid that.

[Dr_Watso]

Weird, I've never had my floor tom creep away at all!

[BacteriumFendYoke]

I was trying to think of ways of machining it but it would be tricky. Casting would be the best way to produce the design and I can understand why you're trying to avoid it! If you want to machine it, you'd need a thicker tube to start with and that's not compatible with trying to reduce mass.

[Mad About Drums]

Anyhow, this got me thinking if rubber feet are redundant. They are in K.I.S's world, how about yours? (there is a reason for me asking this other than curiosity)

No issues with rubber feet for me, I play on thick rug, actually a piece of heavy duty carpet with a strong back up, on cymbal stands, I think they have a purpose, metal to carpet with no spikes can be slippery, on the floor tom(s) I keep them on, you don't really see them that much, my bass drum spurs have actually got adjustable retractable rubbers with strong spikes going through, so I can adjust that the spike are only going into the rug, but not on the surface underneath, so there's no risk to eventually scratch the surface underneath the rug, also, I have adjustable spikes on both the BD and HH pedals, so ditto there, I adjust them so they don't go through the rug but keep them secured into position, nothing's worse than a hi-hat dragging away through a song, so all in all, rubber feet have a purpose, at least on my kit and the type of rug I've got, everything stays were it's supposed to be, that's good enough for me :)

[Anduin]

That's an interesting point (excuse the pun). Do you screw the rubber foot back down over the spike for transit, or do you mean the rubber inherently prevents damage left in its retracted position? The design we're thinking of would be applied to spurs & floor tom legs that are removed from the drum for transit purposes (i.e. stored in a hardware case)

I'm thinking about minimizing damage in transit. For bass drums I've never had a problem with the type of spikes that just fold up beside the drum. I'm more concerned about a hardware case/bag/trapcase where loose spikes might damage the actual case (especially the hardboard and cloth types) or other things in the case (cables, charts, condoms, y’know, the normal stuff). To that end, I always retract hi-hat spikes for transport.

It’s not a huge issue, and knurled boom arms are probably more likely to damage other hardware, but I get nervous any time there’s sharp things in places with poor visibility where you’re likely to stick your hands.

[wsabol]

Adding Pearl Air Suspension feet is literally the best thing I've ever done to my drumset. My floor tom exploded with low end once I put those on. Their design is simple and natural, and they look cool.

Creep issues aren't a big deal for me. even without a rug, its not that much of a problem with those feet. And even if my drum creeps a couple inches, I wouldn't notice... and if I did, I have no problem re-positioning.

[tamadrm]

Actually,I love my vintage Tama Superstar bass drum spurs.The rubber at the base of the spur itself is hollow all the way through.The spur itself is a solid piece of 7/16 round stock,which has a spike on the tip..Above the rubber,the spur is threaded,and has an adjustment knob,which allows you to either use the spike,or the rubber in varying degrees.It is to me ,the most adaptable,and simple to use system I have ever seen.Cheers

Steve B

[keep it simple]

Actually,I love my vintage Tama Superstar bass drum spurs.The rubber at the base of the spur itself is hollow all the way through.The spur itself is a solid piece of 7/16 round stock,which has a spike on the tip..Above the rubber,the spur is threaded,and has an adjustment knob,which allows you to either use the spike,or the rubber in varying degrees.It is to me ,the most adaptable,and simple to use system I have ever seen.Cheers

Steve BI'm getting you there Steve. Sometimes I rely too much on my personal experience & situation, hence this thread. So, rubber option is pretty much essential for widest possible appeal :)

This thread has helped me focus on a design. No reinventing of the wheel, but I have managed to work out how to satisfy my floor tom leg criteria & general player requirements all in one. As always, the best solution was a simple one :)

Thanks guys!

[Anon La Ply]

Weird, I've never had my floor tom creep away at all!

+ 1

[Netz Ausg]

That's an interesting point (excuse the pun). Do you screw the rubber foot back down over the spike for transit, or do you mean the rubber inherently prevents damage left in its retracted position? The design we're thinking of would be applied to spurs & floor tom legs that are removed from the drum for transit purposes (i.e. stored in a hardware case).

Andy - I screw the rubber stoppers back down over the spikes so that a) I don't tear the drum bags when I put the drum back in, b) I can't stab myself on the ridiculous sharp tip of the spur and c) I can't damage the drum any if it's not folded up properly.

Once the drum is set up, though, the rubber is screwed way back up so that the spike can extend fully. The stoppers on my Meridian kick are a really hard rubber, not tacky at all really, so other than covering the spikes I cannot see them having any practical application. It certainly wouldn't gain a lot of traction on a hard floor.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Weird, I've never had my floor tom creep away at all!

+2. Floor tom stays put regardless of the surface. However I do like a quality rubber foot on the legs. I own an intermediate set of Cat maples, the biggest issue with them was the feeble rubber feet on the floors. Swapping them out improved the sound of the drum 100 fold.

But I pretty much always have the spikes through the end of the rubber stoppers on the bass drum spurs. As I mentioned in another thread recently, I've never given a seconds thought about digging them into the floor on the rare occasions been caught without a rug either.

[Anduin]

I’ve thought about this topic a bit more and realized that an adjustable spike (i.e., the ability to screw the rubber bit up and down to expose from zero to all the spike) is crucial. If I’m on a carpet on a wood floor, I want the ability to fine-tune the length of the spike to ensure that it grabs the rug but doesn’t penetrate through to the floor. If I was shopping for gear and I saw something with permanently-exposed spikes, I’d pass it over and keep on looking. (Or make sure there’s a retrofit available if the drum/stand was excellent in all other ways.)

[plangentmusic]

They can't hurt and look better and make the drum feel better when setting it up so I use them. Also, I never found spiked ends of bass drum spurs to be any better at keeping the bass drum stable.

[willie freeman]

Wzup Guys,

I've invented a product that solves bass drum creep and hi-hat/double kick pedal creep at the same time, on any and all floors!

The website for it is: www.kicklock.com

The site is only two weeks old and I've just started to promote it. There are a couple of good demonstration videos on the site. More videos will be added soon, as recent customers complete personal & endorsement videos for the website.

It works flawlessly, installs easy, stays attached during transport, and is very inexpensive!


Right now I'm giving away a very limited quantity of FREE KickLocks for promotion. If you contact me through the email

link on the site I may be able to get one out to you one before the promo is over.


Keep your groove with a KickLock,

Willie :)

[larryace]

Looks like a winner Willie. Seems to me that the spikes or legs are the worst way to stop BD creep, while your system or even a big piece of velcro on the bass drum bottom, that grabs onto the BD rug is the way to go. I have more aggravation with hi hat creep than bass drum creep. All the legs need to do is to stabilize the drum, the creep is better controlled using your method. However a big piece of velcro...I would think it would be even easier, nothing to set up, just plop the BD down on a rug. I hope your product does well.

[Aeolian]

I think it was some Pearls that I had but the bass drum spurs had this quarter turn feature to expose the spikes. Very handy. And they either came up over the spikes, or back to some preset position.

I agree with MAD that smooth metal on carpet is still slippery. Rubber feet have some sort of tread which has better traction. Cymbal stands and other things that aren't being stepped on can benefit from the better traction.

Also, I've experienced the floor tom isolation foot thing. Similar to the foam pads in the Gatzen vid I posted in the stick bag thread.

Since everything we push on with our feet tends to run away, almost everyone uses some sort of adjustable spikes on the legs and or pedal base. Floor toms benefit from the isolation of hollow rubber feet and other stands benefit from the ribbed rubber (no Trojan jokes please) that gives them a better grip on the carpet, and a fighting chance on a hard floor.

I've played kits with the straps and while they do keep things from going away from you, they only work in one direction. Meaning anything at a bit of an angle or offset from the centerline of the throne, will still wander around like a goat on a leash.

[Jeff Almeyda]

From a physics point of view, spike tips on the bottom of a floor tom leg are pretty useless unless you are using a carpet.

Any movement is going to be caused by either:

1. Lateral forces applied to the drum (the most common and obvious scenario)
2. Vertical "bouncing" which might cause the drum to lose its contact with the floor momentarily and re-settle into a different position.

The spike is being driven straight down into the floor. This force is only coming from the weight of the drum, which is not nearly enough to pierce the floor and anchor the drum. There is nothing significantly hindering either lateral or vertical motion.

Only an angled spike would actually do anything on a wood floor.

My question is more sound quality related. I've seen that video where Bob Gatzen places a floor tom on foam and the resonance is increased. Do rubber tips in any way help to decouple the floor tom from the floor?

[audiotech]

I can say that my floor toms never ran away from me, other things might have, lol, but never my floor toms.

Dennis

[jodgey4]

I can say that my floor toms never ran away from me, other things might have, lol, but never my floor toms.

Dennis

My Centennials would sometimes spin around in circles when I played... I always got a kick out of that.

[jornthedrummer]

A kit with only spikes could be a concern to those who own a wooden floor. Even with adjustable spikes and a rug, what is the guarantee the adjustment is done correctly?

Thx

Jorn

[jornthedrummer]

I can say that my floor toms never ran away from me, other things might have, lol, but never my floor toms.

Dennis


That wouldn't be a loss, but an opportunity -)

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Have you ever used one of these?

[bobdadruma]

I use a rug under all of my kits but I don't always need the spikes.
I leave the spikes retracted when I am not playing hard bass drum music.
I like the option of having both.
I also like to retract the spikes when transporting to avoid tearing the inside of the gig bag.

I have never needed spikes on a floor tom.

[BacteriumFendYoke]

Have you ever used one of these?

Why yes, yes I have. In fact my kit in the other room is using one right now!

Very effective, actually. It only has the old-fashioned short, hoop-mounted spurs so the extra spikes are invaluable.

[Aeolian]

My question is more sound quality related. I've seen that video where Bob Gatzen places a floor tom on foam and the resonance is increased. Do rubber tips in any way help to decouple the floor tom from the floor?

The Gretsch tom he uses for that demo has nearly straight legs with rubber tips. The drum needs more isolation than that. i.e. the foam blocks. There are hollow rubber feet that will do a similar thing. New Gretschs with Gibraltar hardware have them. Many folks here have put the Pearl feet, which have a more substantial isolating feature) on their tom legs for the same reason.

And then there are those new Ludwig mounts that isolate the hardware (and legs) from the shell. They would probably have a similar effect on a floor tom.

[sonnygrabber]

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/images/attach/jpg.gif


Sleishman have an interesting idea for the floor tom legs