Bonham's right foot - how did he do it?

[C.J]

I did a search for this subject and couldn’t find anything, but I apologies if this has already been covered.
I'm not particularly interested in copying his technique but I do find it intriguing regarding how he did it. Did he use heel-toe, heel up or did he just have freakishly good twitch muscles?
I heard that he had his pedal tension set quite high. Any ideas?

[FloEy]

Its heel-toe and trust me its not very impressive. Impressive "at the time" yes!

[foursticks]

i thought it was heel-toe, but after watching his right foot closely i concluded that its either purely is right foot twitching away OR the slide technique...

[harryconway]

He used heel-toe, slide and heel down "I got a strong fast ankle". And he used the "state of the art" Ludwig Speed King pedal. Basically, he was good.

[beatsMcGee]

yea he was very fast, check out the immigrant song..

[KLittle123]

Ok, I'm obsessive with Led Zeppelin and I had to say this just to get it right, but Bonham never used heel-toe, but he did kind of somewhat have the motion. He actually played with the ball of his foot and added somewhat of his knee with the motion. He played heel up and he would play fast by moving his leg down with his knee(somewhat), and then would hit with the ball of his foot again while brining his knee up and then would start the same process over again, creating kind of a ...ball-ball technice.
First hit-with ball while whole leg going down with knee
Second hit-ball of foot hitting with push of Ankle, while lifting leg.
---
But other times he would would sort of have his leg hovering over pedal and sort of twitch his ankle to hit the pedal.

[Bonzo_88]

Klittle is right. bonham did not use heel toe. watch any vidoe of him, especially the live dvd moby dick, and ull see for urself its not heel-toe.

[Raymond Bloom]

Ok, I'm obsessive with Led Zeppelin and I had to say this just to get it right, but Bonham never used heel-toe, but he did kind of somewhat have the motion. He actually played with the ball of his foot and added somewhat of his knee with the motion. He played heel up and he would play fast by moving his leg down with his knee(somewhat), and then would hit with the ball of his foot again while brining his knee up and then would start the same process over again, creating kind of a ...ball-ball technice.
First hit-with ball while whole leg going down with knee
Second hit-ball of foot hitting with push of Ankle, while lifting leg.


Ya know, the technique what you are describing IS heel-toe! ;-) Heel-toe technique is not heel - toe - heel -toe...etc but:
toe downstroke - toe upstroke - toe downsrtoke - toe upstroke... etc
the heel actually never touches the footboard in order to make a stroke.

Listen to what Jojo Mayer says about that: (http://www.jojomayer.com/html/faq_.html#PEDAL)
''The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !''

[Breakaway Faction]

Ya know, the technique what you are describing IS heel-toe! ;-) Heel-toe technique is not heel - toe - heel -toe...etc but:
toe downstroke - toe upstroke - toe downsrtoke - toe upstroke... etc
the heel actually never touches the footboard in order to make a stroke.

Listen to what Jojo Mayer says about that: (http://www.jojomayer.com/html/faq_.html#PEDAL)
''The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !''

That is exactly how I was taught top do it. It gives way more power on both of the bass drum hits. It's really the only way to truly do good doubles!

[Stu_Strib]

In hindsight, he wasn't that fast. I don't have any problems playing the stuff he did (the only problem being 'Good Times Bad Times', but that is a coordination thing, not speed).

[Raymond Bloom]

In hindsight, he wasn't that fast. I don't have any problems playing the stuff he did (the only problem being 'Good Times Bad Times', but that is a coordination thing, not speed).
Very true, Stu! That's really not THAT fast!

[aahznightsky]

yeeah stu, i was gonna ask earlier in this thread but i decided not to. But is there some secret recording everyone else has that i've missed? because i always hear people talking about his fast bass work or something and I've never heard it. I always think its maybe just people getting confused about his tom/bass triplets.

[harryconway]

Indeed, the secret video. I wonder the same thing. I wish the DVD footage was out 20 years ago. There are all these myths now. And I get so tired of everybody saying how hard he hit. Yes, he hit hard sometimes. Bonham was a rock drummer, and one of the best, but to me what made him so good was the sum of his qualities and his application. His use of dynamics. How he and John Paul Jones made one of the most forceful rhythm sections ever.

[dothecrunge]

Indeed, the secret video. I wonder the same thing. I wish the DVD footage was out 20 years ago. There are all these myths now. And I get so tired of everybody saying how hard he hit. Yes, he hit hard sometimes. Bonham was a rock drummer, and one of the best, but to me what made him so good was the sum of his qualities and his application. His use of dynamics. How he and John Paul Jones made one of the most forceful rhythm sections ever.

He didn't hit hard? His bass drum hits sound like Civil War cannons. You've seen the DVD, and listened to the studio cuts, that's about it, right? Probably.

[dothecrunge]

What's impressive about Bonzo, is that he was doing it 40 years ago, ever since the mid 60's. Other than the occasional advice he seeked out, he could've developed that all by himself. He was doing heel-toe before there was heel-toe.

Not saying that others didn't "develop" it also, he was probably one of a bunch of drummers developing the same techniques at the same time.

[Raymond Bloom]

What's impressive about Bonzo, is that he was doing it 40 years ago, ever since the mid 60's. Other than the occasional advice he seeked out, he could've developed that all by himself. He was doing heel-toe before there was heel-toe.

Not saying that others didn't "develop" it also, he was probably one of a bunch of drummers developing the same techniques at the same time.

heel-toe technique is damn old! It was invented soon after hi-hat stand. You know that splash-click-splash-click sound? it's heel-toe!

[Stu_Strib]

The hi hat 8th notes are pretty darned fast on "Whole Lotta Love though"! I have a very hard time playing those evenly.

[Bonzo_88]

guys u dont thik a quad on one foot isnt fast? buy the two disc dvd of live performance and watch the moby dick, the one on the site isnt in full. he playys hats and snare with his hands then plays quads with on fooot inbetween beats. anyone who can do this AS powerful as bonham can then truly say i am GOD.

[Raymond Bloom]

guys u dont thik a quad on one foot isnt fast? buy the two disc dvd of live performance and watch the moby dick, the one on the site isnt in full. he playys hats and snare with his hands then plays quads with on fooot inbetween beats. anyone who can do this AS powerful as bonham can then truly say i am GOD.
what's the tempo?

20 characters

[Fur drummer]

Ya know, the technique what you are describing IS heel-toe! ;-) Heel-toe technique is not heel - toe - heel -toe...etc but:
toe downstroke - toe upstroke - toe downsrtoke - toe upstroke... etc
the heel actually never touches the footboard in order to make a stroke.

Listen to what Jojo Mayer says about that: (http://www.jojomayer.com/html/faq_.html#PEDAL)
''The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !''
Yea that is heel toe technique. I kind of rock my foot with the heel up and push off the pedal with my toes to get my leg/knee bouncing. I don't force or left my leg up I let the pouncing motion do it. Know what I mean? I don't know if I explained it that well.

[harryconway]

He didn't hit hard? His bass drum hits sound like Civil War cannons. You've seen the DVD, and listened to the studio cuts, that's about it, right? Probably.
My point being however, he was more that just a hard hitter. No one ever seems to appreciate his finesse. He could bring his roll down to a whisper and build it back up to a roar. He was the first arena drummer I know using bongo's, later conga, and still later timpani to add dymanic to his solo. I own a 26x14 Ludwig kick and that's what they sound like.

[finnhiggins]

I don't really get what all this obsession over Bonham's right foot is about. Stuff like "Good times, bad times" and "Immigrant song" sound really hard when you've only been playing a year or two and have had no real technical instruction. But really, it's all pretty easily achievable with some practice. I'd guess about 100 hours over a couple of months would do it.

He wasn't even dramatically fast in the context of the times. I'd argue that Tony Williams had a considerably faster right foot than most of the stuff that you hear from Bonham, and there are any number of guys - particularly R&B, hip-hop and gospel players - out there today who can absolutely nail much faster stuff with considerably more power.

Why can't people just let Bonham be what he was? A great drummer with great groove and feel. He doesn't have to be The Technical God too.

Also, I have to side with the "Bonham didn't hit hard" people on here. Compare live video of Bonham with, say, Stewart Copeland and you'll see what I mean. Stewart was a considerably more physically aggressive drummer, despite having a much thinner, less huge, less boomy sound. What made Bonham's sound so impressive is that he actually got it with very little effort.

Here's the thing with sound: The velocity at which you hit changes the tone of the drum. You'll really notice this once you start recording. Hit very gently and you'll get minimal attack and a lot of tone/sustain. Hit extremely hard and you'll actually get a shorter note, because the extra power doesn't make the tonal body of the drum as much louder as it does the initial transient attack. Bonham's genius was in balancing his attack and the tone of his drums perfectly, which was a combination of drum sizes, tuning and really great dynamic control.

Frankly, I think just reducing that level of skill down to "No, he hit harder than anybody!" is just insulting to the man himself.

[Henry II]

Bohnam did hit hard! But, a lot of drummers hit hard and don't get his sound which was the result of a combination of: 1) using plexiglass drums, and 2) recording his drum parts in a stairwell (per NPR interview with Jimmy Page).

As for foot technique, Bohnam played heel up, way up, with the full weight of his leg. Not heel/toe.

[Stu_Strib]

Two questions:

1 - What are quads (and what tempo)?

2 - Who cares how hard you hit!!!!?????

We have these lovely things called microphones. I am a much louder drummer than Bonzo (with the right amount of amps and speakers).

To wit:

Hitting hard is actually BAD for your technique and speed.

Hitting hard breaks stuff and causes distortion.

Hitting hard makes you tired.

Hitting hard is non-musical.

Playing drums is good. Hitting drums is bad. I tell all my students this. You can only hit a drum or cymbal so hard before it gets its max volume. Hitting it any harder produces no more volume, just ugly distorted awful sounds.

[harryconway]

Once again Stu hits the nail on the head. You can only hit so hard. On the Bonham drum recording subject, he never recorded with the vistalites. Those were stage drums only. Jeff Ocheltree talks about (and demonstraits with the help of Mark Romans) the classic green sparkle kit and the amber vistalite kits on his DVD "Trust Your Ears". Valuable drum tuning tips on that DVD. As far as recording in stairwells,"When the Levee Breaks" was recorded in a big room (English castle or some such structure) using 2 mics, one being placed halfway up the staircase and one on the second floor overlooking the room. One of the most sampled drum grooves in the history of music.

[Raymond Bloom]

As for foot technique, Bohnam played heel up, way up, with the full weight of his leg. Not heel/toe.
Correct! If someone now has a question for me ''but hey, you sayed it was heel-toe'' then my answer is no, I just sayed that the technique KLittle123was describing is heel-toe! :-)

[tambian89]

Ok:

Part of it was the technique described by KLittle. The other part was how Bonham tuned his bass drum. The tension of the bass head was highly responsive because of how it pushed back when Bonham hit the head. He tuned the bass quite tight, but the dimensions, drum heads, and the felt strips allowed him to get a great sound. The snare drum pushes back when you hit it, allowing the drummer to use a "Rebound" stroke; the tension of Bonham's drum head, coupled with his technique, allowed for the triplets.

Contrary to Stu, I really feel Bonham's triplets are fast. It is not easy to triplet over and over again like Bonham does in Moby Dick. It is possible, but difficult nontheless.

- Marc

[tambian89]

Two questions:

1 - What are quads (and what tempo)?

2 - Who cares how hard you hit!!!!?????

We have these lovely things called microphones. I am a much louder drummer than Bonzo (with the right amount of amps and speakers).



It doesn't matter how hard you hit! You can get the same effect regardless. Stu is right: microphones can make your bass drum loud anyway.

Stu: A "Quad" is basically a triplet, but it is spread out over 4 notes. So its really the same motion, but instead of playing three, you play four. I think it doesn't really exists; its just a shortened way of saying "four consecutive notes", so I can see why you would ask (it's kinda odd). You can spread them out over four 16th notes (1e+a) or over two 32nd notes (1e) (8th notes can be done manually unless you are playing at a very fast speed). You aren't really meant to count them like a triplet
(as in 1 TL + TL 2 TL + TL 3 TL + TL 4 TL + TL)

- Marc

[drumbum]

i agree that Bonham had a pretty good right foot. his foot "speed" became popluar and was impressive only to the rock "crowd" at the time. but, bass foot speed had been around for a while and there were a lot of drummers doing it way before he was and much faster and stronger. it just so happened that most of the drummers that were doing it at the time were african-american and their genre of music was not as popular with the masses as was the rock music from bands like Led Zeppelin. drummers like Tiki Fulwood and Jerome "Big Foot" Brailey were doing it way before Bonham was (interestingly, Dennis chambers became the drummer for Parliament Funkadelic after Brailey left, and he says that he learned a lot about having a fast bass foot from Brailey and Tiki, along with various other drummers, like Cornelius Johnson from the Ohio Players). in fact, Bonham is known to have loved and been heavily influenced by motown and soul music, which accounts for his r&b-ish grooves. now, it's not that i'm not giving credit where credit is due. bonham was definately a great drummer, i'm just trying to educate other drummers that think that he was the first to do it.

[Stu_Strib]

but, bass foot speed had been around for a while and there were a lot of drummers doing it way before he was and much faster and stronger....


Not to mention nearly every bop drummer from 1930-1970.

[Henry II]

Not to mention nearly every bop drummer from 1930-1970.

Buddy Rich had a brutally fast bass foot. Check out his single foot rolls and his foot/left hand rolls. Yikes! I've seen short clips of him doing it with his heel way up, wearing dress boots with a slightly elevated heel. If that doesn't scare you, nothing will. And with a Speed King! Double Yikes!

[Pete Stoltman]

Playing drums is good. Hitting drums is bad. I tell all my students this. You can only hit a drum or cymbal so hard before it gets its max volume. Hitting it any harder produces no more volume, just ugly distorted awful sounds.

THANK YOU! Stu that needed to be said.

[Stu_Strib]

THANK YOU! Stu that needed to be said.

Than YOU Pete. Normally I get nothing but flames for how "negative" I am.

[onemat]

Hi Stu,
Was just going over this thread and you hit upon something when you said he played it "evenly". Listening to "Good Times Bad Times" every thump in those triplets is so even. I have always thought that he was getting this with just that right foot. I've been told that there is snare in there, as Buddy often did the one handed roll, but in reverse. I don't here the snare contributing to those triplets at all.
Someone also said, (I paraphrase here) that Bonham was very advanced for his time. I think his playing is still very advanced. The majority of us will continue to have a hard time doing what Bonham did with that one foot. The music I play, jazz, non metal rock, blues, doesn't require me to play double pedal. In fact man people that call me HATE the double pedal sound. They don't want "busy" drums. They want groove. I guess I'm Ok at that. My goal has always been to have a right foot like Bonham's, a one-handed roll like Buddy's, and a jazz right like Shelly Manne. I'm having fun trying to get there!
Matt

[foursticks]

Normally I get nothing but flames for how "negative" I am.

I couldn't of put what you said any better, i can't understand how people would call you negative for a comment like that.....

[Stu_Strib]

I couldn't of put what you said any better, i can't understand how people would call you negative for a comment like that.....

Well, in other threads people get a bit touchy when you bring their hero's back down to reality level ;-)

Yeah, Bonhams triplets on Good Times, were really only 2 notes they where hand foot foot hand foot foot...sometimes he'd leave the hand out, giving it that really cool, and somewhat difficult to play sound. I have to play the missing hand note on the hi-hat, because I just don't have the coordination to go hand foot foot, hand foot foot, rest foot foot, rest foot foot.

Some serious coordination and internal time keeping going on there for sure!

Someone mentioned fast triplets with the foot on Moby Dick, but I can't think of where they are talking about. He does a lot of snare hi tom low tom foot triplets (technically, 4-strokes, i.e. sextuplet triplets with an attached 8th), if that's what he means, but those aren't very hard. They SOUND fast, and that's why I always over-used that lick when I was starting. It was the first cool riff I learned I think!

[Raymond Bloom]

Well, in other threads people get a bit touchy when you bring their hero's back down to reality level ;-)

Yeah, Bonhams triplets on Good Times, were really only 2 notes they where hand foot foot hand foot foot...sometimes he'd leave the hand out, giving it that really cool, and somewhat difficult to play sound. I have to play the missing hand note on the hi-hat, because I just don't have the coordination to go hand foot foot, hand foot foot, rest foot foot, rest foot foot.


Hmm, after I read your post I listened some times to ''Good Times, Bad Times''
it sure sounds like triplets with right foot!
I watched also the bonus footage from Steve Smith's History Of The US Beat, where he plays some Bonham grooves, Steve clarly plays triplets with his right foot in that groove, there are even colseups to his right foot.
Hmm :-)

[Raymond Bloom]

You people are contradicting his technique into something bad, you're taking every thing that he's good at and making it seem like it's some terrible pathetic thing. He had amazing technique, he didn't sit and beat the crap out of the drums to play loud, he actually knew how to control the heads to make them play loud. He started Heavy Rock drumming, and you people just seem to think that he's some little small detail of drumming and that he's not good. I don't care what any of you say, but to me he's still amazing with that right foot and he's still gonna be my drumming idle.

Oh yeah, and Plant once said that he was good at keeping drumming simple and keeping the beat. Isn't that what drummers are supposed to do hold the beat, tempo, and groove with the song? He did an amazing job of that, stop nitpicking.
Am I missing something? Who calls him a bad drummer? Who says he had a bad technique?

[Stu_Strib]

Jammaster,

I assure you the part on "Good Times Bad Times" are triplets played hand (on hi hat or snare , or both, depending on which beat) foot foot, hand foot foot. This is a very well known Bonham-ism and has been played billions of times by thousands of drummers! I even have a book that 'scribes it that way.

His foot playing the second and third note of the triplet isn't very hard until you take the hand out, then it becomes a real killer coordination/timing issue.


4199

[Raymond Bloom]

I thought the same but after seeing Steve Smith's dvd I changed my mind.
well anyway I'll play that with one foot 8))

[kjsm]

let's not forget as video evidence proved there are songs with him playing incredibly slow single across two bass drums

just like


bd o-o-o-o------o-o-o-o----
sn -----------o---------------o-

or however i should write that out. so it's a bit like the wild praise of nicko mcbrain - both these drummers deserve our respect but ths deification (or making god-like, whatever the correct term is) is simply unneccessary and a bit crass.

[Sonor]

I don't really get what all this obsession over Bonham's right foot is about. Stuff like "Good times, bad times" and "Immigrant song" sound really hard when you've only been playing a year or two and have had no real technical instruction. But really, it's all pretty easily achievable with some practice. I'd guess about 100 hours over a couple of months would do it.

Yeah, I'm not to sure what the deal is with Immigrant song either, it isn't difficult at all. Good Times is a little trickier though.

But you guys have to listen to Trampled Underfoot if you want to hear what his foot was all about. It's hard to hear at first, but have a listen and when it gets to 5:17 (where he switches to the ride) you can here the base drum a little better. I'm pretty sure he begins a base drum stroke on a 3 and there are 4 base drum strokes before the snare is hit on 4 (Bare with me folks, I've never taken lessons so I don't know any theory!). Anyway, just listen to that section a few times and you'll pick it up, then start the song over again and listen to how consistent he is from beginning to end...I'm telling you he hits it the same everytime, and that foot is BUSY! This tune is pretty much the same thing from start to finish, and is shy of 6 minutes...wicked stamina...

Although there is some good stuff on the early albums, you need to listen to Physical Graffiti to hear Bonzo's best work and what he was all about, IMO.

[aahznightsky]

His foot playing the second and third note of the triplet isn't very hard until you take the hand out, then it becomes a real killer coordination/timing issue.




hey man taking the hand out of the equation shouldnt be too hard either. At first, just play your hand in the air, and then just in your imagination (hehe), and then you'll be able to take it out completely!

[Stu_Strib]

hey man taking the hand out of the equation shouldnt be too hard either. At first, just play your hand in the air, and then just in your imagination (hehe), and then you'll be able to take it out completely!

Yeah, those kinds of exercizes usually help to hit your thigh or something.

I remember back in drumline years we used to have two guys play running sixteenths. One guy would play the right hand the other guy the left (no playing the other note on your leg!)

Now THAT is hard, if you get the left hand!

[aahznightsky]

hehe at my school i still do that with my friend on the drumline (which i quit), we were just doing that the other day! except, we were doing 32nd notes, not 16ths. and i go the left hand that time!

[Auger]

I thought the same but after seeing Steve Smith's dvd I changed my mind.
well anyway I'll play that with one foot 8))


Jamster and Stu -I think you guys are referring to different parts of the song.

Jamster -I think you mean under the verse -as in the beginning where plant's singing "in the days of my youth ... " that's where it's all with the foot.

boom boom bop-bop boom b-b-boom bop-bop

And -I can't think of it in context of the song right now (I'm at a public computer at a quick lube place waiting for my car's oil to be changed and listening to soft rock blasting through the speakers, so it's kida hard to hear zepplin in my mind, hahaha) -but I know the other part of the song you mean, Stu -where he leaves out the snare a few times, but they're doubles on the bass drum and then he adds the snare. goes like:

boom b-boom b-b-bop b-boom b-b-bop bop ...etc

Now they're all looking at me funny because I"m standing here going "boom boom bop bop boom..." while typing at the computer.

...I"m going to go get some free "coffee"

[Raymond Bloom]

hmm, not exactly that part, well I cut a 20 sec fragment of Smith playing that groove from his dvd, is it ok to upload it here?

[Legacyrik]

I'm sorry but those are "pure" triplets, three bass beats, not two. I'm just getting back into drumming, the interent is a wonderful thing, and it seems clear he didn't stop with a double stroke with his foot but can also do the triple stroke as well. There are times in "good times bad times" where he does more than three in a row. You need to go back to the song and check that stuff out a little closer. His foot was sweet. Even for now!

[ironman]

No one has mentioned "I Can't Quit You". Listen carefully and you will hear some very sweet foot work from a very young inovative man (at the time). The feel to the triplets is amazing - to this day I still can't get it down. Its not just bum- bum- bum ,the accents and feel are so perfect for the groove Jones/Bonham and Page are laying down. If your talking Bonham and don't know this particular piece - do yourself a favor and give it a listen - head phones work the best. The fact that he was just a kid when Page picked him out of relative obscurity - maybe 19 or so ? I love when folks talk about how hes not very hard to do - its easy to COPY anyone, especially with years of practice - Bonzo laid it down in a matter of hours. Zep II was done in what, 30 hours ? He gets picked by a "star" (Page) and told "lets see your stuff kid". Page/Jones work out the songs - all original, all brand freaking new and this kid whips out "Good Times...", "I Can't Quit You" etc., like its nothing ! The kid was an original - although everytime I listen to "Take 5" I'm reminded of him, there were very few drummers at the time that played at his level. Don't forget, most of the 60's rock was made in just 5 short years ! From "I Want To Hold Your Hand" to the "White Album", Hendrix, Cream, Zep - an amazing time ! You'd da man John !

[ironman]

Tried using a capital " I" for Zep I - didn't like the way it looked - instead of changing the font to Roman I tried again - wound up Zep "II"
"Preview Is My Friend"...write it 1,000 times ironman.

[jazzin']

No one has mentioned "I Can't Quit You". Listen carefully and you will hear some very sweet foot work from a very young inovative man (at the time). The feel to the triplets is amazing - to this day I still can't get it down. Its not just bum- bum- bum ,the accents and feel are so perfect for the groove Jones/Bonham and Page are laying down. If your talking Bonham and don't know this particular piece - do yourself a favor and give it a listen - head phones work the best. The fact that he was just a kid when Page picked him out of relative obscurity - maybe 19 or so ? I love when folks talk about how hes not very hard to do - its easy to COPY anyone, especially with years of practice - Bonzo laid it down in a matter of hours. Zep II was done in what, 30 hours ? He gets picked by a "star" (Page) and told "lets see your stuff kid". Page/Jones work out the songs - all original, all brand freaking new and this kid whips out "Good Times...", "I Can't Quit You" etc., like its nothing ! The kid was an original - although everytime I listen to "Take 5" I'm reminded of him, there were very few drummers at the time that played at his level. Don't forget, most of the 60's rock was made in just 5 short years ! From "I Want To Hold Your Hand" to the "White Album", Hendrix, Cream, Zep - an amazing time ! You'd da man John !


I think you've got your Zep history a bit off. 'The kid' as you say wasn't exactly much younger than any of the other guys. Nor was Page a big star. Apart from Beck and the yardbirds, who weren't huge, he hadn't done a lot at that time. None of them had. They had done a bunch of studio work in which Page and Bonham had met previously along with Plant and him having worked together. But, Bonham was reasonably well known about town (he had been asked to play with some pretty big names).
Sure he was probably a bit louder than most and pretty groovy but he wasn't greatly original. He was just famous. Now, before anyone goes nuts I'm not putting him down at all. He was certainly my first big influence but his feet weren't these amazing lightning bolt things. Up to that point a number of recorded guys had done stuff as fast or faster. It's really nothing to get worked up over. His whole playing history and the music Zeppelin made is though.

[ironman]

jazzin'

Hey, I'm 53 ! He was 20. To me that's a kid LOL ! Page was well known, as well as Jones, around London for their studio work. Jones had much to do with the success of some of Donavan's" hits. Listening to "Hurdy Gurdy Man" I'd swear its Bonham's drumming . There were others in the area that had set their sights on pushing the limits as drummers like Starr and Watts were the biggest prior to Baker, Moon & Bonham. These three managed to create their own "sound" - I'd know any of them on a first listen. To me these "kids" are in a different category from Rich, Karupa, Morello etc., as say Bonham (the obvious aside) as Bonham was so young when the first album was recorded. To me, that is a HUGE accomplishment (the influence & imitation to this day backs this up). Had he been an established, seasoned drummer, Julliard graduate or years of lessons I' say "no big deal". To me, it's always been the essence of a 4 piece rock band - buds in school hanging together, looking around at their options after high school,saving for,pawning, begging, borrowing or stealing some equipment and "going for it". Some of the best rock has come from kids that were hungry to make it - 2 1/2 minutes on vinyl and your entire life changes (one could always buy lottery tickets). I've never been impressed with anyone that had their equipment bought for them,
sat around in the basement of their upper middle class home and had mum & dad paying for lessons and not a care in the world. Very odd perspective I know and probably sounds like "class envy" but hey, I've never claimed to be normal ! I also love boxing and look at it the same way. I've never had a "super group" album in my collection - doesn't impress me. I know the history of Zep frontward and backwards as I was too screwed up as a kid not to have realized I should have been ignoring everybody else and working on my own sound. Read everything I could get my hands on looking for that "tip" that would get me on the inside track. Of course in the late 60's you couldn't get a gig playing original stuff which didn't help the perspective any.I still say, for the times, his age and lack of training/experience made the kid an original. I still get a kick out of him every I listen to an old Zep album. He had attitude, brass balls, innate talent and he forged his own sound by the time he was 20. Anyone that can easily play like him today doesn't impress me - if you've listened to his tracks over & over for the last 30 years and can't do a decent copy of him you should hang up the sticks (not you personally). I guess my point is that I have to remind myself that when I listen to the first couple of their albums he was just a kid - at 53 and I'm listening to a kid. If he were alive he'd be 6 years older than me - I tend to forget that.

Millie: "Can you tell me how to get to Julliard ?"
Billy: "Sure I can - practice, practice,

[hewhowas]

I dont think of Bonzo as a technical drummer I think his greatest strength was his feel and clicking with the groove. When your lucky enough to find fellow musicians who share the same hopes and dreams thats where the magic happens.

[the-ddrumer]

to me bonzo was the best drummer in the world back in the day. i think he was fast because he only used one pedal. He also just used the heel toe method. there wasn't any secret technique to it all it was is that he worked on it enough to the point that it was lightning fast and was powerful. it is just that simple.

[Ian Ballard]

Practice with a click. Do triplets with your hands (as a reference) and try to seamlessly do the same with your feet.

Do this at VERY SLLLOOWW tempos and work upward. You'll find it MUCH harder to pull of good-feeling triplets at very slow rates, and by the time you get faster, they sound impeccable.

Bonham probably practiced a lot and he listened to the James Brown drummers who played shuffles and triplet figures, too. But, he was gifted enough that he could insert those triplets anywhere in a beat and make is sound great! I also think Carmen Appice was going similar triplet figures about the same time, but he used double-bass drums to do them. Although I bet Carmen could do them with one foot, too!

Most importantly, Bonzo did this stuff live with a band. If that doesn't scare the technique into you, nothing else will.

;)

[samthebeat]

Two questions:

1 - What are quads (and what tempo)?

2 - Who cares how hard you hit!!!!?????

We have these lovely things called microphones. I am a much louder drummer than Bonzo (with the right amount of amps and speakers).

To wit:

Hitting hard is actually BAD for your technique and speed.

Hitting hard breaks stuff and causes distortion.

Hitting hard makes you tired.

Hitting hard is non-musical.

Playing drums is good. Hitting drums is bad. I tell all my students this. You can only hit a drum or cymbal so hard before it gets its max volume. Hitting it any harder produces no more volume, just ugly distorted awful sounds.

Tell that Kenny Arnoff Stu, bonham's foot was fast, and hitting drums "hard" ie being LOUD is good, its called wieght, power, a dynamic..........rock drumming, or in classical terms...... With proper relaxed technique and execution is fine for your body... and quads are four note grouping Stu.......duh, like triplets 4 instead of 3.

Good luck with your students, may they be of the group of students that play a gig and wonder why the guy "Hittin" thier drumkit in who has not had lessons sounds so much more better than them. and as for who cares how hard you hit.........i care.

[Ian Ballard]

Tell that Kenny Arnoff Stu, bonham's foot was fast, and hitting drums "hard" ie being LOUD is good, its called wieght, power, a dynamic..........rock drumming, or in classical terms...... With proper relaxed technique and execution is fine for your body... and quads are four note grouping Stu.......duh, like triplets 4 instead of 3.

Good luck with your students, may they be of the group of students that play a gig and wonder why the guy "Hittin" thier drumkit in who has not had lessons sounds so much more better than them. and as for who cares how hard you hit.........i care.

First of all, Kenny Aronoff hits his drums THROUGH THE HEAD, and teaches that. It's TERRIBLE. Have you seen his clinics and the condition of his drumheads afterwards? It amazes me that he has degrees in classical music, but I suppose all that goes out the window when you are playing "rock" for some people. Not me.

I adhere to the Laws of Physics;

There is an upper-limit of sound production from a drum... in other words, there is a point in which the drum will no longer produce ideal soundwaves for maximum volume, the head stretches beyond that point, it chokes, raises in pitch, sounds like crap and consequently does NOT get any louder. You also pit the hell out of your drums.

I suppose ugly "SLAP" sounds are the norm in rock today, but listen to the previous Megadeth drummers, then listen to Vinnie on "The System Has Failed". No comparison. The same goes for cymbals, but with a different physical model... but still, the sound does not raise in db because you hit it with all your might. You also don't have room to ACCENT, when you are slamming your brains out.

Yes, you CAN play aggressively, but also with good touch and good technique. I don't believe Kenny Aronoff has good technique if he's denting and breaking stuff like he does. I'm not impressed by MUSCULAR DRUMMING. He is a fantastic studio and live drummer, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with his approach. Besides, I'm not buying his equiptment, so I don't care. I just won't teach "through the head" stuff. The stick comes OFF the head and you need to understand where the surface is.. it's not beyond the head... it is the head.

Bonzo did not hit drums like an ogre. He had great touch and played dynamically. He never played constant grooves with all his might. He would ACCENT those awesome "RLFRLFRLF" licks and things like that. Otherwise, they would not have the impact they do.

[mfp1016]

I'm not here to ignite a fire, but to simply point out that as long as Rich and Morello were alive (they were), Bonham certainly couldn't have been the fastest or most powerful.

[samthebeat]

First of all, Kenny Aronoff hits his drums THROUGH THE HEAD, and teaches that. It's TERRIBLE. Have you seen his clinics and the condition of his drumheads afterwards? It amazes me that he has degrees in classical music, but I suppose all that goes out the window when you are playing "rock" for some people. Not me.

I adhere to the Laws of Physics;

There is an upper-limit of sound production from a drum... in other words, there is a point in which the drum will no longer produce ideal soundwaves for maximum volume, the head stretches beyond that point, it chokes, raises in pitch, sounds like crap and consequently does NOT get any louder. You also pit the hell out of your drums.

I suppose ugly "SLAP" sounds are the norm in rock today, but listen to the previous Megadeth drummers, then listen to Vinnie on "The System Has Failed". No comparison. The same goes for cymbals, but with a different physical model... but still, the sound does not raise in db because you hit it with all your might. You also don't have room to ACCENT, when you are slamming your brains out.

Yes, you CAN play aggressively, but also with good touch and good technique. I don't believe Kenny Aronoff has good technique if he's denting and breaking stuff like he does. I'm not impressed by MUSCULAR DRUMMING. He is a fantastic studio and live drummer, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with his approach. Besides, I'm not buying his equiptment, so I don't care. I just won't teach "through the head" stuff. The stick comes OFF the head and you need to understand where the surface is.. it's not beyond the head... it is the head.

Bonzo did not hit drums like an ogre. He had great touch and played dynamically. He never played constant grooves with all his might. He would ACCENT those awesome "RLFRLFRLF" licks and things like that. Otherwise, they would not have the impact they do.

I agree with you Ian on many levels, as you said yourself technique is a personal thing, as long at it is relaxed. The reason why I bring up Kenny is because he is a session drummer, not just a well know rock drummer in a wicked band like Taylor Hawkins or Chad Smith for example. He is still playing, and will continue to be sucesfull in what he does. Bassically what he does works for him, it is not the ideal teaching standpoint of technique, i myself do advocate starting a full stroke with your hand touching the ceiling, but it works for him, and it does have a distinct sound, even if it is chocked, much like burying you bass drum beater does.

And yes Bonham did not hit the drums with all his might, he did how ever hit them with power and finese, hes not bloody stroking the things if you catch my drift. Stus comments just annoyed me they were just absolute comments (like "drugs are bad" if you catch my drift). Bassically in my opinion it is bad to hit drums as hard as you can, it is not bad to hit your drums with power. Relaxed technique like i said. And just for the record i dont like muscular drumming either, neither am i a fan of kenny.

[samthebeat]

I'm not here to ignite a fire, but to simply point out that as long as Rich and Morello were alive (they were), Bonham certainly couldn't have been the fastest or most powerful.

They were jazz drummers, ever seen buddy play a rock beat................no!

[Ian Ballard]

They were jazz drummers, ever seen buddy play a rock beat................no!

Actually, I have a CD from his late 70's band, where he plays some rock beats. Sure, they aren't as convincing as a Bonzo beat, and Buddy can't help but swing everything, but IF Buddy wanted to, and was a vital age today, he could play anything, I think.

It's just the matter of "wanting to". He seemed to abhor newer music styles, unless he could adapt it for a big band.

Anyway, it's good to note that Bonzo used old Speedking pedals. While these are still highly-regarded and good quality, they can't be compared with the balance and mechanical capabilities of today's pedals.

One thing that bugs me about Bonzo's stupid death, is that it's almost unfathomable how good he would sound today, especially from an equipment standpoint. Case in point Ginger Baker... notoriously BAD drum sound back in the day. But the Cream concerts in 2005 with his DW's, he sounded BADASS. You just can't tune newer drums badly, or at least not as easily as old Ludwigs with shellac and round bearing edges.

[mfp1016]

They were jazz drummers, ever seen buddy play a rock beat................no!

As far as I know, technique and speed are not endemic to style/genre. And yes Buddy did play rock and other styles when he had to, but Buddy liked to play big band.

[samthebeat]

Actually, I have a CD from his late 70's band, where he plays some rock beats. Sure, they aren't as convincing as a Bonzo beat, and Buddy can't help but swing everything, but IF Buddy wanted to, and was a vital age today, he could play anything, I think.

It's just the matter of "wanting to". He seemed to abhor newer music styles, unless he could adapt it for a big band.

Anyway, it's good to note that Bonzo used old Speedking pedals. While these are still highly-regarded and good quality, they can't be compared with the balance and mechanical capabilities of today's pedals.

One thing that bugs me about Bonzo's stupid death, is that it's almost unfathomable how good he would sound today, especially from an equipment standpoint. Case in point Ginger Baker... notoriously BAD drum sound back in the day. But the Cream concerts in 2005 with his DW's, he sounded BADASS. You just can't tune newer drums badly, or at least not as easily as old Ludwigs with shellac and round bearing edges.

im sure buddy could of played anything he wanted to, i know what your saying, you just cant compare the two, everybody knows that the likes of Buddy Rich, Morello, Bellson kill most drummers with thier chops, even standing next to likes of Vinnie and the like. For me Bonham was a legend, a true inovator of rock drummer, and one of the main influences.......basically at the time not one was laying it down like Bonham, mitchel had nothing on him (to jazz and not as solid) same goes for baker, just not as solid, and that is the sound that has influenced a generation. I honestley dont believe buddy rich could achieve that sound, thats what im saying.

On a different getting back to the thread and the question. I have done a couple of vids showing how i do the triplet thing, its what people call knee ball, a pivot motion, i find I generally need to start to slide a little bit as I speed up. One thing i will point here is i think it is very important to keep in conatact with the pedal.

Vid 1, just speeding it up and slowing it down link -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Sk73F4OhE

Vid 2, A few examples of using the technique in different places in a grooves in the vein of Bonham.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRzgLZdus8

enjoy vids, not very good quality, probably not as fast as bonham, probly not much use at all hahah, oh i really do need no shows, cons are looking filthy.

[druid]

Much of Bonhams sound came from the way he tuned his drums....His bass drum was BIG...like a 26" and it had only felt strips on it ( live maybe not even that much) and while he had a BIG sound I don't think he was crushing drums the way some people exagerate....his sound was big but controlled....Buddy Rich similarly got a BIG sound and he sure as heck did not bash mindlessly.

I am not a big fan of playing thru the drum...absolutely no point to it at all.

[mrchattr]

You can hit really hard without playing through the drum. I tend to play (when I'm in situations when I can) very forcefully, but I use a lot of technique...I have to, since I use a lot of double, triple, and quadruple strokes. But I still like to play loud...as do plenty of drummers past and present. Tony Williams once said something along the lines of "I play the drums loud, because they are meant to be played loud." Philly Joe Jones made fun of Lenny White when he let Lenny sit in one time, saying, "Wow, Lenny, that sounded...something." At another gig, when Philly came out to see Lenny, Lenny told him that Freddie Hubbard (the band leader) was telling him he played too loudly, and Philly Joe said, "Nah, man, now you finally sound GOOD...I used to make Miles' lip bleed I played so hard." And then there are guys like Derrico Watson (you want to talk about a fast foot? He can play double bass licks faster than most guys I've heard (except the extreme death metal guys)...but he does it all with his right foot. It's insane!) today who play very hard, yet still have a lot of technique.

I think where the problem comes in is that everyone has their own definition of what a "basher" is...when you are playing "too hard." It's kind of like when you're driving...everyone going slower than you is too slow, but then if you get passed, the guy is clearly going too fast! :-D It's a personal thing, just like tunings, etc.

[caddywumpus]

1 - What are quads (and what tempo)?

2 - Who cares how hard you hit!!!!?????

We have these lovely things called microphones. I am a much louder drummer than Bonzo (with the right amount of amps and speakers).

To wit:

Hitting hard is actually BAD for your technique and speed.

Hitting hard breaks stuff and causes distortion.

Hitting hard makes you tired.

Hitting hard is non-musical.

Playing drums is good. Hitting drums is bad. I tell all my students this. You can only hit a drum or cymbal so hard before it gets its max volume. Hitting it any harder produces no more volume, just ugly distorted awful sounds.

1. Quads, as I understand them, are a combination of all four limbs in a pattern. It's like doing a single-stroke roll, but using all four limbs before the 1st one hits again. Double kick players use it a lot for fast fills. Just an example would be hands on the floor tom and feet on a double kick setup, playing: RH, LH, RF, LF, repeat. This done at quarter=160 sounds "impressive" and like you have chops, but it's very simple to work up in a short amount of time.

2. Who cares about hitting hard? The audience probably. It's fun to watch "expressive" drummers play (big swings, stick twirls, etc...), especially in a giant venue when you're watching from the nose-bleed seats and can't really see what's going on up close.

Hitting hard is actually BAD for your technique and speed (it's actually NOT. It depends on your goals and playing style/genre...Tony Williams and Elvin Jones hit plenty hard)

Hitting hard breaks stuff and causes distortion. (not if you employ the proper techniques)

Hitting hard makes you tired. (not if you have worked up to it and are used to it...like running a marathon)

Hitting hard is non-musical. (it's an expressive gesture, and music is an art created in the moment. Appreciation of music is also highly subjective, so what's "musical" to one might not be musical to another, and vice-versa).


Just so you know, I don't "hit hard" or play loud. I agree with you on all of these points, but I don't think we should use a drum forum to call some people's treasure "trash". We all have opinions, and we I think we should use them to build each other up, not tear each other down...

[Royal]

I'm not particularly interested in copying his technique but I do find it intriguing regarding how he did it. Did he use heel-toe, heel up or did he just have freakishly good twitch muscles?
Any ideas?
---------------------------
¬
He had some talent......something that thousands of hours of practice won't create.

[Creothcean]

Bonham didn't follow any prescribed "technique" such as heel-toe or slide, he did what felt right, and, in order to augment his already well-endowed foot strength and speed, he practiced to get faster. It's a time-tested technique, if you play singles with your right hand for two-minutes straight, 10 times a day, and increase the tempo every day, your right hand will get faster.

[JJimm]

Bonham didn't follow any prescribed "technique" such as heel-toe or slide, he did what felt right, and, in order to augment his already well-endowed foot strength and speed, he practiced to get faster. It's a time-tested technique, if you play singles with your right hand for two-minutes straight, 10 times a day, and increase the tempo every day, your right hand will get faster.

Whenever I want to play some Bonham riffs such as in my time of dying or good times bad times, I do it heel down. I was taught to play that way, and although heel up was acknowledged by my tutor as a way to get volume, he discouraged it as improper. So because he said that, and I believed it, I was pretty confident I'd be ok in most situations as I was playing the way everyone else was! So when I ran into difficulty copying those songs, my attention was drawn to the tension of the head and springs. I just played around with them and I got over the problems. It is instructive to me to go back to my mindset 23 years ago and trust my abilities and make the drum kit work for me by tuning it in a way that feels best. I would also experiment with toe stops, digging my toes into them , then taking them off and playing into the ball of my foot, heel down. So maybe we should worry less about bass drum techniques and more about the details of tuning and feel? I can understand why we slacken the batter head for low notes, but why not slacken the front head instead and leave the batter at a tension which is going to help rather than hinder?!

[Muckster]

I can play the Bonham triplets heel down as well as Heel/ toe. Yes Heel / Toe gives me more volume but i'm more comfortable playing heel down. My point is use whatever technique works for you. Just because Bonham used a certain technique or not is not the issue.

[JJimm]

I can play the Bonham triplets heel down as well as Heel/ toe. Yes Heel / Toe gives me more volume but i'm more comfortable playing heel down. My point is use whatever technique works for you. Just because Bonham used a certain technique or not is not the issue.

Ok I am agreeing with you. I'm also considering the notion of less attention to foot techniques and more to the set up of the drum as a way of making playing this stuff more comfortable. Jim

[Fox622003]

Come on...ANY drummer can play the Bonham triplets.
I'm not here to bring Bonzo down, but really, he was just known for that because he actually did it, but ANYONE can do it, he really wasn't very fast by today's standards.
What I like about Bonham is his innovative grooves, compared to someone like Paice (whom I fall asleep listening to, as he has like...one or two barely original grooves). Good Times Bad Times, Fool in the Rain, When the Levee Breaks, that intro to The Rover, Black Dog, brushes on The Rain Song, and so on.
As for the specific topic, I don't know, you can play at that speed with any usual way you play your bass drum, doesn't require any special technique. If you can't do it like you normally play your abss drum, just keep practicing, and it'll come.


Fox.

[JJimm]

sorry am new to this forum and not sure who is replying to who - Fox are you replying to me? - have no problem playing them - just out of interest, talking out loud really, about something I forgot about from years back (tuning/ response, less attention to technique).

[Fox622003]

sorry am new to this forum and not sure who is replying to who - Fox are you replying to me? - have no problem playing them - just out of interest, talking out loud really, about something I forgot about from years back (tuning/ response, less attention to technique).

No, no, I would had quoted you otherwise. I was just generally responding to the title of the thread. It sounds like a "Oh my! How did he do it so fast?!" It may just as well truly be a question on how he specifically did it, and not because it was fast. I am very against how some of these musicians are idolized for stuff that isn't really what's important about them.


Fox.

[utdrummer]

Took a while but I found them. Now, if I can load them right....
the intro to Good Times...









And the busy part that everyone likes to work at...

[utdrummer]

Of course I can't do it right...anyway, here's the simpler intro to get you started...
There are several ways to "count" this especially if you're first starting out on this, but I learned to count it; 1tata &tata 2tata &tata 3tata &tata 4tata &tata. In this example, play eighth note cowbell with your right hand, hihat with left foot, snare on 2&4, and play EVERYTHING ELSE on your bass drum. Seriously, all notes marked "tata" plus the one and three will be your bass. Difficult passage to be sure but if you start slowly and play evenly, you can have the basics of this mechanics down. Then it's just a matter of building up your stamina and speed. Best of luck. BTW...lots of youtube vids demonstrating this lick.