problem counting while playing

[bmeat]

hey guys. i play mainly two types of music which are rock, and then heavy rock/metal.

when i play rock music, like fuel or incubus, i notice its impossible to count the 8th notes staright foward with a head bob for everyone. it it is just too fast paced, so on the quarter notes, or the downward accented beat i do a headbob downward, i lift my head to get the 8th note strike, or the "and" and then headbob back downwards to catch the quarter note again. this works for me wether its in 4/4 time or 3/4 time, but im mostly playing 4/4.

when i play metal i cant use this head bob techinque. i have to count every cymbal strike with a straight headbob. i cant catch the 8th note on the upward movement, or else i just get lost. why is this?

when i switch between a metal songs and a rock songs, using these two different ways to count, im confusing myself. there must be a correct way to count. can anyone help me get past this mental roadblock? thanks

[bmeat]

maybe i should ask how you guys keep track of time when counting in your head? do you just count the quarter notes or do you keep track of the 8th notes?

[BradGunnerSGT]

maybe i should ask how you guys keep track of time when counting in your head? do you just count the quarter notes or do you keep track of the 8th notes?

You should try to get to the point where you internalize the tempo without having to actually count. Unless I am sitting down and trying to break down a particular groove or fill to figure out the sticking, I rarely sit there thinking "1-2-3-4 1-2-3-4" or "12345678 12345678", I am feeling the pulse of the beat and the "one". I'm also thinking "here comes the part where the band builds into the pre-chorus and I have to follow the bassline as it descends and we have to hit the 'and' of 4 in unison".

During breaks where the drums drop out, I also sometimes think/mutter a random syllable in an eight-note or 16th-note pulse to keep the time internalized so I can come in with the right tempo. "dut dut dut dut dut dut dut dut" like that.

Pro tip: if you are figuring out something and counting through the 8th notes (like in an odd-time groove), don't count "one two three four five six seven eight nine", because "seven" has 2 syllables (which can throw you off) -- think "one two three four five six sev eight nine"

[JohnW]

Brad is right on the money. Internalize the tempo and always emphasize the "ONE". Only if I'm learning something new will I count it and then I'll do it with a metronome. Basically, if it's something slow, I'll count "fast". If it's something fast, I'll count "slow".

In other words, the speed of the syllables or numbers I'm counting doesn't change, but the values they represent do. If it's something ridiculously slow, I'll count 16th notes. If it's slow, I'll count 1/8ths. Medium fast 1/4 notes. All the way up to real fast tempos where I'll count 1 note per measure.

If you're playing something uptempo, I think the music will come across as kind of stiff if you consciously mark every note in every subdivision. It's like you're driving a sports car with your hand on the emergency brake. Count that stuff in your own practice but have faith that your body will remember how to play it right when you're on the bandstand. Try to feel the natural phrasing in the music when you play out and better yet, sing the melody while you're playing. It will do 2 things: One, the melodic line should sync up with the note values you would normally be counting or bobbing your head to. Two, you're going to start to hear the weight of your playing in a total musical context. Even if it seems a little awkward at first, you'll find it much easier as you go along and play. In any style of music.

-John

-John

[Mad About Drums]

I totally agree with Brad, you'll have to figure out were ONE is within the groove/pattern your playing, in any time signatures, it's by far the easiest way to go about it, and unless you're working on a specific patterns or exercise, knowing were ONE is will be sufficient :)

Also check out the DVD by Benny Greb The Language Of Drumming, it has a section in which he substitute counting numbers using words or phrases instead, ie: 1 2 3 = RA-DI-O (radio) or 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 = LI-STEN-TO-THE-RA-DI-O (listen to the radio)

[bmeat]

hmm thanks for the info. its funny becuase when i first started playing i just felt the tempo, and it made the metal very easy to play, but i had so much trouble playing normal rock music becuase i couldnt "count" every straight cymbal hit like i could with metal. for example the song clean by incubus, if i try and bob my head for every single hit, its actually faster than a metal song, so i have to just do a downward bob on the quarter note. i understand hes playing the hi-hat with two hands, but during the chrous its just a standard 8th note pattern. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vdevhVt-c

so i eventually adjusted to playing rock by doing two strikes per a quarter note, or kind of lifting up to hit the "and" beat, and coming back down to catch the quarter note. learning this now made metal much harder to play. since i was so used to just couting straight foward.

let me ask this. does a metronome/left foot tap count the quarter notes or the eighth notes?
if i want to play any faster, i just do two strikes per eigth note, it makes an awesome blasting noise, and this isnt that difficult for me. its just trying to use my head as a metronome and getting confused by playing two styles of music. but theyre both "rock", so i dont get why im getting confused

im not really counting. im just trying to figure out a way to keep the groove without having to bob my head foward for every note like i used to. it just makes my head hurt X_x
just wondering how you guys do it

[bmeat]

wait according to this very accurate cover incubus is not even playing eighth notes during the chorus. hes playing faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD5R5GQx0K0

how fast is he playing the ride around 1:50?

im confused? im glad i picked this song becuase the tempo makes no sense to me. i can pick out the accented one beat and keep it, but multiplying it x2 or subdiving it just isnt making any sense.

then i have other songs by them like this one, which i can kept count easily and understanding whats going on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_xSN900Uw&feature=relmfu

[Mad About Drums]

let me ask this. does a metronome/left foot tap count the quarter notes or the eighth notes?
You set your metronome to whatever subdivision you like, I like to set mine in 16th notes with a pulse on the quarter note :)

It goes like this for one bar in 4/4: TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic ....

wait according to this very accurate cover incubus is not even playing eighth notes during the chorus. hes playing faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD5R5GQx0K0

how fast is he playing the ride around 1:50?

It's 4/4, verse = 16th notes on hi-hats, 1:50 is 8th notes on ride cymbal :)

[bmeat]

You set your metronome to whatever subdivision you like, I like to set mine in 16th notes with a pulse on the quarter note :)

It goes like this for one bar in 4/4: TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic TOC tic tic tic ....



It's 4/4, verse = 16th notes on hi-hats, 1:50 is 8th notes on ride cymbal :)

got you about the metronome. and are you sure about in being played at 8th notes? why am i having so much trouble counting this song if its standard? the "one" or the accented beat is so far apart, i feel like i have to do 3 foot taps before i hit the "one"
beat/headbob again.

i have the same issue with this chevelle song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEH7fw298CM the

[bmeat]

i ask becuase i was getting pretty good and now that i start thinking about things too much, the speed just doesnt feel like its flowing right. i had that in the past a few bad days but its been going on for like a week now kind of upset. ive even tried keeping my left foot moving while playing to force myself to play at the right speed

[Anthony Amodeo]

where in Jersey are you located bmeat ?

[bmeat]

central jersey, in somerset county how come?

[hypersthene]

Both songs you refer to have a 6/8 time signature.

[bmeat]

Both songs you refer to have a 6/8 time signature.

hmm..i didnt think they were 4/4. oddly enough i can play the songs pretty well, but i just dont understand at all whats going on. i really want to understand.

[Anthony Amodeo]

central jersey, in somerset county how come?

Im in Union County

just curious

thought if you were close enough we could meet up and for a lesson or two

[Anthony Amodeo]

wait according to this very accurate cover incubus is not even playing eighth notes during the chorus. hes playing faster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD5R5GQx0K0

how fast is he playing the ride around 1:50?

im confused? im glad i picked this song becuase the tempo makes no sense to me. i can pick out the accented one beat and keep it, but multiplying it x2 or subdiving it just isnt making any sense.

then i have other songs by them like this one, which i can kept count easily and understanding whats going on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX_xSN900Uw&feature=relmfu

thats a 6/8 groove in Clean and in the Warmth its just 4/4


the feel in Clean is similar to this...6/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyu04pqC8lE&ob=av2n

[bmeat]

thats a 6/8 groove in Clean and in the Warmth its just 4/4


the feel in Clean is similar to this...6/8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyu04pqC8lE&ob=av2n

i guess my problem is im getting so used to counting the downward one then beat raising my head for the "and", and coming back down for the one (technically the 3, or 2 if you were counting 1 & 2) and im getting stuck using this technique.

i guess i cant use this for all types of music, or can i? i want to be able to just move my head left and right like a metronome, but its not working out so i can keep time during bridges and fills that dont have the "groove"

[ahector]

IMO, don't worry about what your head is doing. just let it do what it does... as long as you are relaxed and you are not holding tension in your muscles.

slow the music down enough that you can comfortably count along with it. there has to be a point at which you can do this.

if you can, for example, count the quarter notes and play a basic rock beat:

XXXXXXXX
K S K S


i know this is a terrible bastardization of any sort of notation system, but i hope you get the idea. eight notes riding, kick on 1 & 3, snare on 2 & 4.

if you can count along to that and play it comfortably, you can count along with the music that you're playing. you just need to take enough baby steps to get from point A to point B.

i think your problem is that you haven't really broken things down into pieces (just guessing here!)

you talk about being able to count along to certain genres of music, certain tempos, certain songs. it's not about that.

the question is... can you count along to the verse groove from song X? if no, forget everything else, sit down, slow that groove way down until you can do it. you might need to break THAT down further. slow it down and figure out how to just count the first measure. maybe you need to break that measure down and figure out how to count through the first two beats. you have to do whatever it takes, but eventually you can isolate and/or slow down ANY aspect of the music you're playing enough that you can understand it, play it, and count along with it.

ok, so once you get the verse groove down from song X, can you play the fill that goes into the chorus and count along with? if no, then you break THAT down until you can.

you just have to go through all the little bits that make up a song and work on them as individual pieces. if you can count through all the grooves that make up a song and all the fills that make up a song, TA-DA! now you can count through the entire song.

keep in mind that the counting thing is just training. it's an exercise. the goal is not to be up on stage performing a song and counting through it, as previous posters mentioned. the idea is that if you put yourself through the hard work of being able to count a song... your timing is going to be better. your dynamics, your touch... they're going to be better. you'll have internalized the groove and the fills to a point that you don't have to count anything, or even think about what you're doing on an intellectual level. you can then just go up there and feel it. let it happen.

[Anthony Amodeo]

i guess my problem is im getting so used to counting the downward one then beat raising my head for the "and", and coming back down for the one (technically the 3, or 2 if you were counting 1 & 2) and im getting stuck using this technique.

i guess i cant use this for all types of music, or can i? i want to be able to just move my head left and right like a metronome, but its not working out so i can keep time during bridges and fills that dont have the "groove"

yes you can do this with this feel

if you were counting 6/8 to six and feeling the pulse in your movements you would bob

(in bold) 1 2 3 4 5 6

or if you are counting

1 2 3 2 2 3 you would bob

(in bold) 1 2 3 2 2 3

listen to Clean or Breaking The Girl and count them this way ...you will feel it

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I would have a headache and be dizzy with all of that bobbing. Neal Peart says to sing and not count. His method. Mine...I hum the bass line

[Mad About Drums]

I would have a headache and be dizzy with all of that bobbing. Neal Peart says to sing and not count. His method. Mine...I hum the bass line

In the song bmeat posted, for the 6/8 feel (or any 12/8 for that matter) in a rock stetting, I tend to feel the quarter note pulse, it goes along with the guitar riff, in this instance, the cycle is over 4 quarter notes, hence my 4/4 description, I feel more at ease by following the quarter note than the 8th note pulse, and when I count off the song, I would count it out loud as 4 with an 8th notes triplet on the sticks :)

We all feel and count rythm differently, sing it, hum the melody, bobbing head, not counting at all, it doesn't really matter, it's the end result that's count and what's working for any individual :)

[bmeat]

In the song bmeat posted, for the 6/8 feel (or any 12/8 for that matter) in a rock stetting, I tend to feel the quarter note pulse, it goes along with the guitar riff, in this instance, the cycle is over 4 quarter notes, hence my 4/4 description, I feel more at ease by following the quarter note than the 8th note pulse, and when I count off the song, I would count it out loud as 4 with an 8th notes triplet on the sticks :)

We all feel and count rythm differently, sing it, hum the melody, bobbing head, not counting at all, it doesn't really matter, it's the end result that's count and what's working for any individual :)

hmm. thanks for all the info guys, its great food for though. but yeah, i could tell it was weird, the song wasnt slower, but the accented beat was spaced more than normal, and i was getting myself confused. i thought i could always just count like ive always been, one two, one two, one two, the eigth note in my head, or back and forth back and forth for the 8th notes

i just had a jam session after class had to stop at 10 cause my dad needs to sleep, but my mojo returned a bit :) i think it was just my mental state.

but about the way i count, i cant do that for every rock/metal song?

checkout this video. somehow hes using the techquie to play a intense metal song. see how he does one hit on down one on up. can i count every song this way? it worked really well with regular rock music, opening the hi-hat always happens when im at the top with the standard rock song, but with metal i always mess myself trying to play like this. i have to count my metal straight foward, and switching between the two is confusing me, i dont even know when to switch. im trying to think how i grooved to my music before i starting playing drums, but i just cant remember x_x

it looks like it helps him hold his time so well
the song gets annoying real fast. be sure to quit around a minute, youll see the technique im talking about right away though
also those are 8th notes what hes counting with his foot correct?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLx-zddlHA

ps ahector you may like this stuff, i listened to your tracks they sound great.

[Netz Ausg]

bmeat

I think you're concentrating too hard on using your head as a metronome. Try and relax yourself and let your neck muscles do whatever the hell they want. In the meantime do all your counting in your head.

Watch most pro drummers and they don't nod to every beat. It'd look ridiculous - like a nodding dog up on stage.

Internalise the counting, or sing it out loud. By concentrating on moving your head in conjunction with your arms/legs you are over complicating.