THE "BIG" JAZZ THREAD [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

theduke86

02-28-2006, 05:00 PM

Anything Chris Potter plays on. His new album Underground (I just saw the tour with Nate Smith on drums... SICK!!!) old albums, Lift (with Bill Stewart), Gratitude (Brian Blade)... Or the Dave Holland quintet albums he plays on like Extended Play live at Birdland (Billy Kilson)... I love Chris Potter.
Keith Jarrett's my all time favorite- anything by Keith Jarrett. My goal is to collect and listen to everything that he has ever put out... I have about 60 albums so far... 20 or so to go. I recommend any of the Trio albums to start. Standards vol 1 and 2 are great, Tokyo '96, Up For It, the Out Of Towners... great places to start... For his solo piano recordings, Koln Concert is great. He's also got a new one out that I'm going to pick up today that is quite good (I listened to it at my friend's house a couple weeks ago.) Everything Keith does is so fantasic and artistically pure, you can't help but love it. Plus, Jack DeJohnette sounds like an alien on those Trio recordings... Gary Peacock is a wonderful bassplayer as well. Check out his older American and European group recordings as well. Some of it (particularly the American stuff with Paul Motian and Charlie Haden) is a little out but very very enjoyable.
As for something a little more groove oriented, try Joshua Redman's newer stuff. Like Elastic or Momentum, his latest. Momentum's got Questlove, Brian Blade and Jeff Ballard (one of my new favorites) beating the skins. Also, Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers on bass for a few tunes... he sounds fantastic in this context. He's a better bass player than I gave him credit for.
I also love some of the new-ish Roy Haynes led albums. Love Letters is awesome- it has a complete all star band on it. He released one with John Pattituci and Danilo Perez which is one of my favorite trio albums. Birds of a Feather, his Charlie Parker tribute is very interesting... Kenny Garrett on alto, Roy Hargrove on trumpet, Dave Holland on bass... Dave Kikoski (?) on piano. Very very cool stuff.
Newish Wayne Shorter's good- his newest release "Breaking the Sound Barrier" and Alegria before that both have Brian Blade, John Pattituci and Danilo Perez. I saw the group live and they smoked!
For something new, check out Ari Hoenig's last two releases... they are very creative and have a new cool concept behind the drumming.
Hope that helps you out.
edit: oops Stu I just saw "Hard Bop influenced". Okay, so maybe check out the Jazz Messangers recordings from the early 80's with Wynton... Or the VSOP recordings with Wynton and Branford.. The Roy Haynes stuff definetly has a little bit of nostalgia to it. Particularly the Charlie Parker tribute. Pick that one up, you'll love it.

Auger

02-28-2006, 05:10 PM

Stu,

I'm no jazz expert, but I can add a little advice:

Jazz is a really great music to check out on a local level in most major cities (I've never been to the UK, but I'm guessing some other members here could point you in the right direction.) A lot of those artists will have their own cds to sell too. On a local level, there are a lot of contemporary artists still playing hard-bop and doing a really great job of it in most cities. -though, I have no idea if you're in the middle of no-where, so this may be no help!

Also, I know you're looking for more traditional, but I think Duke pretty much covered that! As far as recorded stuff goes, There's a lot of great new jazz too that's not strictly bop, but it's not all elevator either. Check out MEdeski Martin and Wood -their first few cds sound more traditional, but I love their more recent stuff too. Also, have a listen to the Bad Plus, Charlie Hunter, and brad mehldau

Also, yeah, sadly a lot of the greats have passed. But a lot are still around. Horace Silver put out a great album in '99 called "jazz has a sense of humor" Sonny Rollins still tours, as does Brubeck, and Arthur Taylor put out a *great* live album as recently as the mid-ninties called something like: wailin' at the vanguard.

And, although this is traditional, it isn't bop ...but since it's Fat Tuesday, I had to mention the Preservation Hall jazz band. Saw one incarnation of them about two summers ago in Jersey and they were GREAT! Go here:
http://www.preservationhall.com/2.0/

I highly reccomend the disc 'shake that thing' (click on "the label" to have a look.)

jamndrummer

02-28-2006, 05:18 PM

ElvinBaRkerDennis13

02-28-2006, 05:29 PM

a great jazz band is the lionel lyles quintet out of maryland, they could be playing the newport jazz festival, up in RI, and they are reat to listen too, look them up on the internet, they have some great songs

Loge

03-01-2006, 09:09 AM

As a bandleader and a great, great drummer, I really like Thelonius Monk Junior. His "Changing of the Guard" album kicks. The tribute album to his old man, "Monk on Monk" is a good one, too.

Auger mentioned Brad Mehldau - I think his trio is among the best around and I feel he's destined for historical significance as a pianist. All of the "Art of the Trio" series are excellent and there are many other albums (some "harder" than others).

And McCoy Tyner's Trio has released some killer stuff in the last few years (one of the older "legends" but his recent stuff is thouroughly of
the moment).

And don't forget The great sax man, David Murray. Incredible body of work.

Stu_Strib

03-01-2006, 01:00 PM

Thanks guys for all the comments...some of them I already beat you to it; Mehldau, Charlie Hunter, Medeski Martin and Wood,

I'm definitely gonna check out Ari Hoenig, as his name comes up a lot in drumming circles.

Thanks, and keep the ideas coming in.

Davidb59

03-01-2006, 01:53 PM

This may be slightly off topic but as Stu Strib mentioned Ari Hoenig it made me think.

I am a new drummer and I am working hard, with the help of my teacher, to develop the Moeller technique. I saw the video of Ari Hoenig and was surprised at how incredibly stiffly he holds his wrists and the sticks. It seems to be completely at odds with what I am being taught about movement of the wrist/hand like bouncing a ball. I am sure he's a great drummer but would love to know why he plays like he does

Stu_Strib

03-01-2006, 02:48 PM

Good question. I haven't seen him, so I can't say. Maybe I'll go surf over to the drummerworld drummers section.

Ok, back. Hey Bernhard, you link to both videos on Ari Hoenig sites go to the same video so check the link!

Yeah, I see what you mean! He holds his sticks extremely weird. But hey, it sounded flawless, so there you go!

da cheese walks

03-03-2006, 01:49 AM

Jazz is wonderful.....

"new" jazz is in so much styles....its crazy....

a brilliant Jazz/Bebop band around nowadays are the fantastic "Seatbelts"(with Yoko Kanno)...located in Japan...they do teh whole soundtrack to a japanese animation called "Cowboy Bebop"...i hate all anime except this one...just because of its brilliant soundtrack!!

you shud check them out!

theduke86

03-03-2006, 02:29 AM

Yeah, try and play like Ari, but don't play like Ari....
Make sense?
Don't get me wrong, I think his drumming is awesome, he's a good writer too, but his technique is a little weird.

jazziscool

03-03-2006, 05:01 AM

I am a huge fan of anything Jim Black plays on. He plays some great stuff with AlasNoAxis. Just listen with an open mind. Dave Douglas would be another guy to check out.

jazzgregg

03-03-2006, 06:38 AM

http://www.birdlandjazz.com

Hey jazz lovers, here is a great place to read about who the jazz greats are and some of their gigs in N.Y. Also, many great jazz artists came from and are evoving out of Chicago, IL.

One of the baddest drummers on the planet today is based in Chicago- Hamid Drake. He's probably a little 'out' for many of you though. Ken Vandermark is a killer reed player and great bandleader from Chicago as well. Same with the 'out' though.

I'm not sure I understand, Stu, with the 50's-60's influence? Some of these posts seem confusing the way I'm interpreting it.
G

smoggrocks

03-03-2006, 10:37 PM

ya, i'm seeing a somewhat contradictory cross-over too.

it seems a lot of newer artists are doing 'retro' explorations of bop, but they also are doing a lot of reworking of soul and rock music [lots of people covering the music of santana, etc]. i guess they're doing a little of everything. then there's the smoothy stuff, but ehh...er...eeeeeeee... i'm not really into that.

javon jackson, joe lovano, don faddis, eric alexander, nicholas payton and certainly wynton are pumping out the hardbop, so that might be a starting point. also geri allen, kenny garrett and terrence blanchard. i don't really know of drummers per se that are focusing on the genre.

lil will

03-03-2006, 10:46 PM

I've been reading a lot of history of Jazz lately, and it is depressing how many of the greats are gone now. Which led me to think, who are the contemporary jazz legends in the making that still have that 50s (and earlier) bop/hard bop inluence? Not just drummers, but musicians in the vein of "band leader" of the old days.

I ask, because I really enjoy the high fidelity of modern recordings of jazz standards. Right now I am really into Wynton Marsallis, as his sound is modern, yet his music is true to the history of jazz.

Any other suggestions?

Stu

YES monty alexander.... hes an awesome keys player, his trio..... they just....rock or JAZZ

jazzgregg

03-04-2006, 12:56 AM

i don't really know of drummers per se that are focusing on the genre.

There are plenty of drummers today who've made entire careers on the hard bop genre, but of course, hard bop isn't modern.

What I meant by confusion is that how can people like Dave Douglas (of whom I'm a huge fan), Jim Black (ditto) and Chris Potter (who always plays better on other people's albums, IMO) be mentioned if we're talking about modern guys playing the standard repertoire, i.e. 'standards' or 'Hard Bop influenced.. DD ain't playing standards, that's for sure. Is that what you mean, Stu?
G

Loge

03-04-2006, 01:57 AM

Ken Vandermark is a killer reed player and great bandleader from Chicago as well.

Oh,yeah! Loved the stuff he did with his band "The Vandermark 5". Makes it to Atlanta every once and a while.

mattsmith

03-04-2006, 05:39 AM

I would like to put in a good word for my father Tom Smith's own music. He has always been a tradition in transition jazz guy, but alot of his music with eastern european musicians has been kind of out there. His website is pretty great, with his bands backed by alot of amazing drummers that include Louie Bellson and my mentor Romanian drummer Vlad Popescu. The website is thsmith.com. I have learned alot listening to the live concerts audio section.

Alot of you guys mention Chris Potter. He is originally from the Carolinas where we are all from. In fact on my mom and dad's first date, dad took her to a gig he was playing with Potter when he was still only 15 years old. My parents say that Potter wiped everybody out back then too even at his age. Mom remembered that dad took out a white hankerchief and waved it at Potter as a sign of surrender when Potter went into about his tenth minute of Rhythm changes. Dad kind of took mom on that date to see if she could handle the musician's life. She did and they were an exclusive after that gig.

theduke86

03-04-2006, 08:07 AM

One of the baddest drummers on the planet today is based in Chicago- Hamid Drake. He's probably a little 'out' for many of you though. Ken Vandermark is a killer reed player and great bandleader from Chicago as well. Same with the 'out' though.

I'm not sure I understand, Stu, with the 50's-60's influence? Some of these posts seem confusing the way I'm interpreting it.
G
Oh man, I just got a double album with hamid drake and fred anderson, it is my favorite album of the year thus far, it is killin!

Matt- Good to see you in here, I've seen you play on videos. You sound great man.
A bass player I play with played with Chris Potter when he was 14 in Red Rodney's band. He says he was smoking back then too.

mattsmith

03-04-2006, 08:21 AM

Matt- Good to see you in here, I've seen you play on videos. You sound great man.
A bass player I play with played with Chris Potter when he was 14 in Red Rodney's band. He says he was smoking back then too.

Thanks Duke. I like how you express yourself on posts about all the different subjects. I can tell you are probably a great player yourself. Yeah, its kind of wierd about Chris. Had my parents not gotten along on that gig, I wouldn't be here LOL. Dad says Potter has a photographic memory where he takes Real Books and just flips the pages until its all in his head. What a gift that would be.

Thanks about the videos remarks, but I'm kind of embarrassed by those now. I have some much better stuff out soon, thank goodness. Actually I just got back from a Andy Narrell concert. They had this unknown drummer from Martinique who was incredible with great taste and chops, like everything together. Just goes to prove that great guys are everywhere, and not just the famous ones.

Stu_Strib

03-04-2006, 09:10 AM

There are plenty of drummers today who've made entire careers on the hard bop genre, but of course, hard bop isn't modern.

What I meant by confusion is that how can people like Dave Douglas (of whom I'm a huge fan), Jim Black (ditto) and Chris Potter (who always plays better on other people's albums, IMO) be mentioned if we're talking about modern guys playing the standard repertoire, i.e. 'standards' or 'Hard Bop influenced.. DD ain't playing standards, that's for sure. Is that what you mean, Stu?
G

Well, the majority of the albums I have seem to be from the Blue Note label, during the 50s and 60s. I see it is mostly called hard bop. The artists I really like are Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Cannonball Adderly, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, Horace Silver, Lee Morgan etc.

I'm just looking for guys that play those standards/style but in modern recordings. I really like the Wynton Marsallis stuff and a Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra recording of Love Supreme.

thanks

jazzgregg

03-04-2006, 09:31 AM

I really like the Wynton Marsallis stuff and a Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra recording of Love Supreme.

With all do respect, I can never 'speak' to you again.
Except to say, why not just buy some more recordings of those guys? Sound Quality? Buy Japanese Imports, the remastering is terrifyingly clear. Any modern recordings you hear with people playing like that are just rehashing old ideas anyway, why bother?

And my suspicions were right, most of these replies certainly weren't what you're looking for with regards to the 'Hard Bop' part.
G

theduke86

03-04-2006, 05:51 PM

Thanks Duke. I like how you express yourself on posts about all the different subjects. I can tell you are probably a great player yourself. Yeah, its kind of wierd about Chris. Had my parents not gotten along on that gig, I wouldn't be here LOL. Dad says Potter has a photographic memory where he takes Real Books and just flips the pages until its all in his head. What a gift that would be.

Thanks about the videos remarks, but I'm kind of embarrassed by those now. I have some much better stuff out soon, thank goodness. Actually I just got back from a Andy Narrell concert. They had this unknown drummer from Martinique who was incredible with great taste and chops, like everything together. Just goes to prove that great guys are everywhere, and not just the famous ones.

Haha thanks man. I'm not a touch on you though- I hit 925 on a drumometer a couple weeks ago and I nearly had a cow. Plus, I'm 19. I need to develop quicker. hehe.
I look forward to hearing your new stuff, I'm sure it's fantastic. Be sure to let Drummerworld get a sample or two when it's up! We like to hear some great young jazz players. Yeah, there's a ton of great unknown players that we don't know about... I wish I lived in a place where I could hear more of them!!

Stu- I heard Wynton and the LCJO do Love Supreme live, it's not half as good as the way Branford does it. With half the pretention too! Also, the Marsalis Standard Time recording is great too- some interesting rhythmic ideas on that one.... There's a great trumpet player in Toronto named Chase Sanborn who plays in the Clifford Brown type style.... Awesome stuff. You'd have problems finding his stuff in the UK though.

Stu_Strib

03-04-2006, 08:05 PM

Any modern recordings you hear with people playing like that are just rehashing old ideas anyway, why bother?
G

Well because I love the tunes, but hate the mono microphone live recordings and low fidelity of most of them. Newer stuff "just to be new" to me isn't very interesting. Why mess with a good thing, comes to mind?

Thanks though everyone for the comments.

jazzgregg

03-04-2006, 11:36 PM

Well because I love the tunes, but hate the mono microphone live recordings and low fidelity of most of them. Newer stuff "just to be new" to me isn't very interesting. Why mess with a good thing, comes to mind?

Thanks though everyone for the comments.

Stu, try any of the Blue Note RVG remasters or as I said, the Japanese import 24 bit masters of the Blue Note recordings. These sound better than most CD's released today, IMO because of the warmth and depth that is unavailable from digital recording. In the late 50's, Rudy Van Gelder (RVG) was mixing and recording for the most part in stereo. All of the cats you mention earlier (with the exception of Cannonball who only recorded a single album, 'Somethin Else' for them, iirc): Blakey, Dex, Horace, Lee Morgan, etc- are basically staples of the Blue Note catalog and the entire 'Hard Bop' movement'.

G

Drad-dog

03-05-2006, 12:30 AM

Well, it's not hard bop, but for a tradition-oriented group with modern recording quality, you could check out Ray Brown's stuff. The Telarc live/in studio recordings sound great. Benny Green on piano and Jeff Hamilton. Of cousre, it's not going to have that gritty hard bop "play till your fingers fall off" energy, but it's really good.

I think though that there is a definite forward motion to jazz stylistically. Most newer groups/artists are doing their own thing, and playing hard bop the way Blakey and Cannonball played it would be like playing with someone else's style. Joshua Redman, Cyris Chesnut, Christian Mcbride, Brad Mehldau- you can hear be bop and hard bop infuences in their playing but they're not going to get together and play "Blues March" just for old times sake. Not that that would be a bad thing, it just isn't the direction the music is growing in.

Sorry if I misspelled any names.

PS My favorite piano player of the hard bop era: Bobby Timmons! He swings hard!

mattsmith

03-05-2006, 05:04 AM

Yeah, there's a ton of great unknown players that we don't know about... I wish I lived in a place where I could hear more of them!!

Duke, I would strongly suggest you get down to one of the yearly IAJE Conventions. Its like PASIC, except all jazz and has the same vibe. There are something like 400 different things going on, and every single jazz guy of note is there, so all the concerts are hot because the guys in the audience are also all the top guys, and students like us, who can sometimes be a meaner audience lol.

It costs students about $135 American. But its the best bargain going. You can actually see just about everybody in one four day period. It's always in January and about seven to eight thousand people go. My family goes every year. Next year it's back in New York, right on 52 street and will shift to Toronto in 2008. Hotels are discounted, so its not as expensive as you think. It's one of those deals where you save up a little at a time until you have enough. You can even get college credit.

All the top drummers go and perform and do the clinics, DeJohnette, Haynes, Hamilton, Stewart, and lots of others.

Stu_Strib

03-05-2006, 03:34 PM

W Of cousre, it's not going to have that gritty hard bop "play till your fingers fall off" energy, but it's really good.

I was under the impression that "bop" is the super up-tempo tunes "play till your fingers fall off music" and that "hard bop" was more medium tempo groove oriented stuff. I read that "hard bop" is like slower bop with gospel and blues influences (thus the groove), yet still has the hard swing feel of bop, just slower tempos.

I'm not sure how old this is but I bought Scott Hamilton "Tenor Shoes" with Jeff Hamilton and it definitely fits the "hard bop" bill.

rendezvous_drummer

03-05-2006, 07:46 PM

I dunno about you guys, but apparently Joey Jordinson and Tre Cool can play jazz so they must be the new great jazz legend....... i now hate myself for saying that. But yea i was listening to a miles davis album called "Sketches of Spain" and the drummin was very cool. I'l check the drummer's name.

Davidb59

03-15-2006, 01:21 PM

Marcus Baylor of The Yellowjackets is excellent. Check out the clips on this site and the album Time Squared.

Stu_Strib

03-16-2006, 10:13 AM

I dunno about you guys, but apparently Joey Jordinson and Tre Cool can play jazz so they must be the new great jazz legend.......

Don't believe everything you read on Drummerworld ;-)

Guillermo

03-16-2006, 04:38 PM

Well I am so glad to find another die hard Keith Jarrett fan... this man is a giant in music in every sense of the word... an absolute titan in every aspect... creative, charisma, inspiration, technical, work... you name it...

As far as the topic for jazz drumming, I think there are two main avenues with NEW vitality going on today...

On one side drummers strongly centered in tradition that have produced what I call a "New Bop sound" an evolution started with Jack DeJohnette after Tony Williams... and continued by new talent, these are guys like Joey Baron, Bill Stewart, Matt Wilson, Susie Ibarra, Brian Blade, Lewis Nash, etc.

And another in wich experimenting with electronics and textures, and being influenced by styles others than rock, such as slick neo-jazz producer made electronic music like Bugge Wesseltoft, Lars Petter Molvaer, Kruder & Dorfmeister and Amon Tobin... these are guys like Bobby Previtte, Adam Deitch and Billy Martin to name a few.

I think this is where jazz is standing drumwise now.

jazzgregg

03-16-2006, 05:19 PM

Guillermo,
How in the world do you mention Lewis Nash in the same sentence as Susie Ibarra? There aren't 2 more opposite drummers.

Seriously.
G

Guillermo

03-16-2006, 05:29 PM

Well I am not saying this group of people are similar ins style... I should have been more clear...

This cluster of drummers are those that in my opinion come from an evolution of jazz drumming from before... Brian Blade and Bill Stewart are also as different as can be...

In the case you mention in particular, I think someone like Lewis Nash is much more influenced by guys like Roy haines and Ed Blackwell... while Susie is much more influenced by free jazz... in any case those are evolutions from previous jazz work.

The other cluster of guys mentioned anre those fusing styles rather than evolving in the more traditional jazz drumming... regardless of style.

Jazz has many different styles... we tend to think or associate difference is style more as a thing for other kinds of music... but jazz musicians are as varied and colorful in their differences as anything else... take for example, if you compare someone like Joe Henderson to Sun Ra, even in the same instrument and genre, can't be more different.

jazzgregg

03-16-2006, 05:44 PM

Guillermo,
I wasn't talking about style, either. I was talking about how Susie is a boundry breaking, innovative and imaginitive, creative improvisor and Lewis Nash is a Max Roach clone, more or less.

We are all drummers based on drummers who came from before, people like Susie take it somehwere, people like Nash don't.

What Nash does could hardly be called 'New., as in this thread.
G

Guillermo

03-16-2006, 08:36 PM

Oh I see what you mean... Nash is sort of a purist.

Yes...

Even if rooted on tradition and without that "inventiveness"... in my opinion his drumming is a very modern take on classic 50's bop drumming, with a traditional sound... sort of like John Riley, Smitty or even Jeff Watts too... yes, he may not be as "out there".

I do think however much of his 90's work with Tommy Flanagan was very fresh... unlike his stints with guys like Brandford Marsalis that to me would be the best example on his take in acoustic jazz drumming...

I think a new point has come out though...

And it is that the inventiveness and spark comes now at a much smaller pace... I mean we see that basicly in jazz most guys at the forefront creatively are sort of old... like say Paul Motian... his trio work is very interesting musically... Peter Erskine's trio is another example... the younger guys playing acoustic jazz now seem to be less risktakers and more reserved than what young guys were 30 years ago.

But that is the INVENTIVE aspect of it... I think guys like Nash shed new lights in their playing in much more subtle ways than say the way Susie does, wich is amazing... if Susie were a piano player she would be Cecil Taylor... Nash would be John Lewis.

tambian89

03-16-2006, 08:54 PM

Lars Ulrich! Yeah!

Seriously, I think Chris Potter is really good. This guy's grooves are crazy.

- Marc

jazzgregg

03-17-2006, 03:51 AM

Even if rooted on tradition and without that "inventiveness"... in my opinion his drumming is a very modern take on classic 50's bop drumming, with a traditional sound... sort of like John Riley, Smitty or even Jeff Watts too... yes, he may not be as "out there".

IMO, Nash isn't a modern anything, he's an old take on an old idea (albeit a good idea). At least Watts has done a few more modern things and has more modern concepts.

And it is that the inventiveness and spark comes now at a much smaller pace... I mean we see that basicly in jazz most guys at the forefront creatively are sort of old... like say Paul Motian... his trio work is very interesting musically... Peter Erskine's trio is another example... the younger guys playing acoustic jazz now seem to be less risktakers and more reserved than what young guys were 30 years ago.

I kind of agree, but mostly not. On the one hand, yeah, no one has done as much to Jazz drumming since Motian,et. al (assuming we aren't counting DeJohnette) And don't you young whippersnappers start saying 'oh, but Billy Kilson', or whoever.
1. We are talking Jazz (Weckl is out)
2.Bill Stewart comes CLOSE, but only close.

As for Erskine- Peter's a great player (as is Nash) but they just aren't on the artistic level of a Joey Baron in that they are NOT taking risks- not with their playing OR their actual product output.

Why I kind of disagree is that there are younger people like: Susie, Hamid Drake, Paal Nilssen-Love, Joey Baron, Bobby Previte (who I don't like, but is totally a risk taker), Tom Rainey, Christope Marguet, Eric Echampard, Gerry Hemmingway and a bunch I can't remember right now. So they're out there, you just have to know where to look. Risk taking is not at all present in mainstream Jazz and hasn't been for quite some time. (Although it took a lot of balls for Brantford to do 'A Love Supreme' and though on principal I refuse to hear it, I hear it's very good. THAT is a risk). You just don't find the kind of adventureous attitude in Scofield, Adam Rogers, Mark Turner and so on. I'm not commenting on the music, just calling it like it is. Do any of you wishing to obect think that Mark Turner DOESN'T know what will happen in his composition and/or improvisation next?

But that is the INVENTIVE aspect of it... I think guys like Nash shed new lights in their playing in much more subtle ways than say the way Susie does, wich is amazing... if Susie were a piano player she would be Cecil Taylor... Nash would be John Lewis.
Again, Guillermo, I can't totally agree. Nash as Lewis, yeah. More subtle the Susie? No, easier to understand and follow? Yeah. Have you heard Susie's 'Folklorico' where she's playing Kulintang (Gongs)? How about her duo recording with Mark Dresser 'Tone Time'? Any of Her trio stuff with her own trio like 'Flower After Flower' or 'Radience'? Her stuff with William Parker's 'In Order to Survive'? If you JUST listen to Susie with someone like David S. Ware or Zorn, you might get the impression she can't or isn't subtle, but if you look further, she's far more nuanced than that. Maybe I'm being too picky, since I know what you're getting at, but Susie is one of the most sensitive, multi faceted musicians I'm aware of and more people should know about her. That goes for everyone I mentioned above (Hamid, Paal Nilssen-Love, etc.)

My 2 cents,
Gregg

rendezvous_drummer

03-17-2006, 04:22 AM

Don't believe everything you read on Drummerworld ;-)
Hahaha oh i know that. i got a question..... could stanton moore be considered a jazz drummer?

Stu_Strib

03-17-2006, 09:12 AM

Stanton Moore plays jazz, sure, but not really the type I was talking about. I was mainly speaking about the old 40-60s bop guys and who now days is taking that "feel" and incorporating it into modern recordings.

So far I have 3 recordings with Bill Stewart and I can't imagine it get any better.

More info on Joey Baron please. What should I listen to? I can't imagine that Peter Erskine is not on the same level as this guy! Peter Erskine, to me, is the epitome of old school meets new school.

So in my fledgling jazz collection of "new legends" I have actively sought out and purchased stuff featuring Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Jeff Hamilton (all superb!). Next up I suppose is Joey Baron.

Guillermo

03-17-2006, 08:00 PM

Well... I can tell you I have seen Susie play a lot... I think she is the drummer I have seen that has koncked me out the most on a first impression... I mean I went NUTS... ha, ha, ha...

When I mean subtle, is not the playing itself... but how fast you recognize the concept in someone's work... with someone like Susie you inmediately go "Whoa..."... someone like Nash it's more AFTER you listen a couple of times "hmmm that was a nice approach on doing that... that could have swinged different", etc. it is a lot more subdued... it's like comparing Bill Bruford to Phil Rudd... Nash is like a Phil Rudd of jazz.

Yes... risktaking has never been the mainstream... but nevertheless I am not seeing as much inventiveness being PUSHED the same way it was, say 25-30 years ago... when inventive stuff, regardless of style, be it Liberation Orchestra, Carla Bley, Sam Rivers, John Zorn, heck even the ECM explosion, etc... was NOT yet recognized and followed as they are now... of course it is much easier to talk about this in HINDSIGHT... I would have loved to BE THERE at the time.

I am not seeing such a strong movement of talent "pushing it" as much... yes there are many young people doing music with freshness and vitality and even technical brilliance... but considering the generality... I think the risk taking and inventiveness have mellowed a bit in the latter generations.

Anyway, I think Bill Stwart is the poster figure for contemporary bop drumming.

jazzgregg

03-17-2006, 08:55 PM

When I mean subtle, is not the playing itself... but how fast you recognize the concept in someone's work... with someone like Susie you inmediately go "Whoa..."... someone like Nash it's more AFTER you listen a couple of times "hmmm that was a nice approach on doing that... that could have swinged different", etc. it is a lot more subdued... it's like comparing Bill Bruford to Phil Rudd... Nash is like a Phil Rudd of jazz.
That makes sense, I hear you man. 'Nash is a Phil Rudd of Jazz' is pretty good, I really lol'd! For me though, the more I listen to Nash, Jeff Hamilton, Kenny Washington, etc. I just want to hear the ACTUAL cats- Max, Mel Lewis, et. al. But that's just me, I know there's a good chunk of the Jazz consuming population that wants to hear the same pattern over and over again in the same way Max was playing it in 1945. I'm just not one of those people. I saw Kenny Washington with Jackie McLean a few years back and was bored to tears by Kenny because I had already heard Max do the licks he was doing on recordings from 50 YEARS AGO=) Nash is the same, he did a clinic once where I went to College and he talked about stuff that anyone who's hear the Charlie Parker stuff already knew. Seriously, 'modern drumming' not exactly.
.
Yes... risktaking has never been the mainstream... but nevertheless I am not seeing as much inventiveness being PUSHED the same way it was, say 25-30 years ago... when inventive stuff, regardless of style, be it Liberation Orchestra, Carla Bley, Sam Rivers, John Zorn, heck even the ECM explosion, etc... was NOT yet recognized and followed as they are now... of course it is much easier to talk about this in HINDSIGHT... I would have loved to BE THERE at the time.

I am not seeing such a strong movement of talent "pushing it" as much... yes there are many young people doing music with freshness and vitality and even technical brilliance... but considering the generality... I think the risk taking and inventiveness have mellowed a bit in the latter generations.
In order to see what's being pushed you need to look to Europe also. Things are happening now worthy of what was happening 25-30 years agao, problem is, no one cares. You're obviously interested in this kind of music, but you don't know about all the stuff that's happening, and it's not your fault! It really IS getting harder and harder to find it. You know Charlie has released a new LMO album, right and that he only releases them when he's pissed at something, right?

I just listed a current bunch of real envelope pushers in my last post- here's some more:Mats Gustaffsen, Frode Gjerstad, Atomic, Scorch Trio, Rune Carlssen,Lars Göran Ullander, The Thing, Sten Sandell, Peter Brotzmann, Evan Parker and Americans like Ken Vandermark, William Parker, Michael Blake, Tim Berne and Zorn (who is STILL relevant, IMO.)
The talent and pushing is there, but you really have to look. These are a good start (Ken Vandermark alone has a dozen projects that are worth looking into). I'd be more than happy to give reccomendations on any of these guys for anyone interested, though, as I said, some of the CDs might be hard to find. I really think that many of these people I've mentioned are on the level with say, Carla Bley. Labels like Thirsty Ear, Okka Disc, Rune Grammaphone, FMP, AUM Fidelity and Zorn's Tzadik are constantly releasing boundry stretching stuff, with a concept. ECM was about a concept too.

Anyway, I think Bill Stewart is the poster figure for contemporary bop drumming.
Agreed. There's nothing I hate more though than a drummer blatently ripping off Bill, it's so arrestingly obvious when it happens.

G

jazzgregg

03-17-2006, 09:09 PM

More info on Joey Baron please. What should I listen to? I can't imagine that Peter Erskine is not on the same level as this guy! Peter Erskine, to me, is the epitome of old school meets new school.

So in my fledgling jazz collection of "new legends" I have actively sought out and purchased stuff featuring Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Jeff Hamilton (all superb!). Next up I suppose is Joey Baron.

Sorry to hear about your money spent on Jeff Hamilton=)

As for Erskine, read what I said. I said the same level regarding risk taking. Erskine is as risky in his drumming as an accountant is with his calculator. He's a great player, but he's not a risk taker, Joey Baron is. Listen to any number of albums with Joey and imagine Erskine sitting in. lol.

That said, here are some Joey Reccomendations:
John Zorn's acoustic Masada- any/all
John Zorn's 'Spy vs Spy'
Tim Berne's 'Diminutive Mysteries' and 'Fractured Fairy Tales'
Enrico Pieranunzi's 'New Land' and 'Deep Down'
Bill Frisell's 'Live' and 'Music for the Films of Buster Keaton vols 1 and 2'
John Tayor's 'Rosslyn'
his own 'Raised Pleasure Dot' and Tounge in Groove'

There are a ton of great albums with Joey, I'd reccomend a Masada one first, probably. Try either Masada 1 or First Live, those are the most 'normal'. I've seen Joey a bunch of times in concert and he was just here in Toronto for a master class last month. For you Candians (or those wishing to travel) he'll be in Montreal June 29th with Masada.

Good luck,
G

rendezvous_drummer

03-17-2006, 09:37 PM

Bernhard

03-17-2006, 09:55 PM

Listen to any number of albums with Joey and imagine Erskine sitting in. lol.

Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem. Joey is more experimental (Jack style....) - Peter more technical (Morello style...)

I love both as you can imagine...

Bernhard

jazzgregg

03-17-2006, 10:04 PM

Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem. Joey is more experimental (Jack style....) - Peter more technical (Morello style...)

I love both as you can imagine...

Bernhard
Bernhard,
Thanks for posting all those great photos! I was referring to Joey's more experimental stuff, of course. They are 2 very different drummers and I think hearing Erskine in Masada or with Tim Berne would not really work.
G

Guillermo

03-17-2006, 10:24 PM

man this forum is great.. so many people to learn from... just look at those pics!... ha, ha, ha.

Jazz Gregg, I know those artists and really, really like them... specially Peter Brotzmann, Evan Parker and Ken Vandermark...

Remember, I mentioned TWO trends going in jazz drumming... almost all of those you mentioned I fit on the second cluster, with the likes of people like Previtte, etc...

All my comments on pushing boundaries were about the first group...

And Bernard's analogy of peter Erskine and Joey Baron could not be more accurate... I love it here!

jazzgregg

03-17-2006, 10:50 PM

All my comments on pushing boundaries were about the first group...

Ok, fair enough, I agree then.=) I don't listen to much of that first group if I can help it, as I said, I go to the source. Jazz should be moving forward, not staying in the same place, IMO. It is part of what I think makes it what it is, plus, it needs to be that way to keep it fresh. Of course, that might mean that we don;t like some of the places it goes (I hate 'smooth jazz' more than anything in the world. anything), but it MUST go somewhere, IMO.
Consider this: I have a buddy who likes heavy metal. He tells me who does what etc. and I don't really pay attention- BUT I've learned a few things: bands like KISS and Motley Crue WANT to make new music, but the fans only want to hear the old stuff. To me, people like Nash et. al have made a career on being a 'nostalgia act' like these metal bands have turned into, know what I mean?
And if no one has yet, Guillermo, let me welcome you to the forum!

G

p.s. Erskine was the best drummer for Weather Report, IMO=)

theduke86

03-18-2006, 02:14 AM

I love Joey Baron. Favorites are Masada live at Jerusalem 1994, Live at Seville 2001, live at Tonic 2000. All are under John Zorn's name. I would also throw in Naked City. That's a great one. Not everyone's cup of tea, but give it a shot. You might love it. I do.
And Bill Stewart is my favorite modern drummer. Contemporary bop drumming is exactly the label I would put on him. Even his funkier stuff, he plays with a be bop sensibillity. It's like he's taken the language of Tony Williams, Elvin Jones and the touch of Paul Motian and he plays it all like Philly Joe Jones. Beautiful, beautiful drumming. Everything Bill touches is fabulous.
I guess, to summarize, I love Bill Stewart's playing, eh?

Guillermo

03-18-2006, 02:45 AM

thanks!

Hey Joey Baron and Bill Stewart are my some faves as well... when I noticed Joey at first was with some of his more free stuff like with Bill Frisell and Kermit Discroll... also Masada... then digging into my record collection out of curiosity from this man's playing, I found out Grace Under Pressure by John Scofield wich I had listened for years, and somehow THOUGHT it was Idris Muhammad... as well as other more traditional recordings with him on... OHHHHH! That's when I got why I loved his playing so much...

It has fundamentals... many guys strive in playing "FREE music" yet they simply DON'T PLAY...

Like an abstract painter, one should evolve... learning the fundamentals first... like a portrait or drawing and THEN EXPLORING and UNLEARNING sort to say... guys like Joey and Dejohnette and Bill ARE like that... they PLAYED and went from 1 to 10 without cutting corners... so when they play and start to go OUT THERE there is sense behind what they do.

red tag

03-18-2006, 05:08 AM

One of the baddest drummers on the planet today is based in Chicago- Hamid Drake. He's probably a little 'out' for many of you though. Ken Vandermark is a killer reed player and great bandleader from Chicago as well. Same with the 'out' though.

I'm not sure I understand, Stu, with the 50's-60's influence? Some of these posts seem confusing the way I'm interpreting it.
G
Jazzgregg,

Hamid Drake is one bad mofo; I've just recently discovered this guy, but I'm loving his style--actually, I've been listening to this group called Chicago Underground (duo, trio, quartet, and orchestra) for some time now. Essentially, I can sense similarties between the drummers, which both are from Chicago (surprise, surprise.) I was wondering if you can recommend me some more of Hamid's work, so far I've heard most of the William Parker quartet stuff.

Stu_Strib

03-18-2006, 09:38 AM

Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem.
Bernhard

And both very much balding!

Jazzgregg, I understand your smiley, but what's wrong with Jeff Hamilton? Do not like his 'sell-out' style of playing for Krall and Buble? I really enjoy his playing on Scott Hamilton's "Tenor Shoes". I bought it on iTunes, and thought it was new (they have posted dates, and not actual recorded dates sometimes) but I think I read it was from the early 80s. I really like the sound on that recording.

I guess my own playing lines up more with Erskine than it would Joey. I leave the risk taking to the practice room ;-)

I have such a fledgling jazz collection (even though I've had it in the back of my head for 20+ years or so, I've finally sought to go after it more) that I feel like those kids on the rock side who think they discovered the greatest thing ever! (sorry finn, gonna steal it again) "Dude, I heard this new guitarist, he's really great. His name is Jimmi something!" Compared to jazzgreggs immense experience in this area, I feel like one of those punk rock kids discovering The Sex Pistols or something ;-)

Stu

jazzgregg

03-18-2006, 04:24 PM

Jazzgregg,

Hamid Drake is one bad mofo; I've just recently discovered this guy, but I'm loving his style--actually, I've been listening to this group called Chicago Underground (duo, trio, quartet, and orchestra) for some time now. Essentially, I can sense similarties between the drummers, which both are from Chicago (surprise, surprise.) I was wondering if you can recommend me some more of Hamid's work, so far I've heard most of the William Parker quartet stuff.
Red Tag,
Yeah, Hamid is one of the bad ones, that's for sure! He's got a heavy reggae and rock influence happening and is a very muscular player on the set. One of the only guys around, I hear, with a strong 3, very much against Jazz which makes his phrasing stand out.
Chicago Underground is great and Parker's Quartet was how my wife learned to like both Drake and Parker. here are some more you might want to try:

William Parker:...and William Danced; Scrapbook; Piercing the Veil (duet between Parker and Drake- HIGHLY recommended!)

Peter Brotzmann (not for the weak=): Little Birds Have Fast Hearts No. 1and No.2;
Aoyama Crows;The Dried Rat- Dog (duo with Drake); Live at the Empty Bottle; Die Like a Dog; Never Too Late but ALways Too Early

Anything by Ken Vandermark's DKV trio

Mats Gustafsson- For Don Cherry

Fred Anderson: The Missing Link; The Milwaukee Tapes Vol. 1;Birdhouse;
Live at the Velvet Lounge; On The Run

(In case anyone is starting to wonder after all these recommendations I give, I do in fact have an enormous CD collection=)

For me, my favorite Darke stuff is the Parker stuff and the Brotzmann stuff. Drake works SO well with William Parker that anything with both of them should be heard. Hamid is also a duo master.

Enjoy!

G

mattsmith

03-18-2006, 06:54 PM

Jazzgregg, I don't know man, I started with Tony Williams and DeJohnette and felt like a bunch of doors opened and got tuned in early. It made me want to hear a lot of other stuff I never would have listened to. It didn't stunt my growth. I still wanted some Art Blakey. But now I also wanted to know about Rashied Ali. But I agree with your Wynton retro Monk vibe complaint. I get that his music is all retreads and retreads stunt the look ahead. I get it. I also like alot of the Knitting Factory and Chicago free school music you seem to like, even if some of that can be a fake vibe too when some of the smaller guys try to pick up on what the main guys are doing and do it wrong. Do you get Knit TV? Some of that stuff is pretty bad. So we're probably agreeing about most jazz styles of today.

But man those were pretty hard slams you laid on Erskine and Hamilton. Even with your set of rules you have to give props to Erskine for Weather Report. How about those first Steps Ahead grooves? When it came out that was considered ahead of its time. I also dont think Mintzer would be hangin' out with guys who play like accountants. To me, Hamilton and Lewis are pretty different. Lewis was a major groove big band guy. That Thad and Mel groove he layed down on "Mornin' Reverend" on Live at the Village Vanguard was major on all levels. Yeah, Hamilton's grooves are influenced by Lewis, but Hamilton is also into another bag. Jeff Hamilton comes off to me more like a horn outliner guy like big band guys of yesterday. This style kind of fits more with his big band since it's kind of like a Basie tribute band anyways. I've seen Hamilton in small group too. There was nothin' mushy about his uptempo stuff. He's also pretty creative. His playing in the LA 4 where he replaced Shelley Manne was adventurous for sure. People just don't hear that now because he's with this big band.

I know you are one of these challenge me guys and thats cool. But I think you're simplifying the reps of some good musicians. Erskine especially doesn't deserve to be slapped around.

mattsmith

03-18-2006, 08:23 PM

Jazzgregg, I correct myself that you did give props to Erskine for Weather Report. Sorry about that. But calling him an accountant was a slap. But we agree that risk taking is what jazz is supposed to be about. But man, all creative stuff doesn't have to be a John Zorn cook out. Thats just one slice. Also alot of that music has become a safe style that is sold as a product too. Is this really risk taking anymore? Its like a name brand now. Alot of people think Vandermark started being safer after he got all that grant money. His whole scene's like a product now too. How about history? Art Ensemble of Chicago was on the fringe until they went on the Today Show one time and people started seein' it like something else. This is what I like about Ali. He always has kept it real even if it meant having to play other music sometime to keep what he loved fresh. I went on your website. It's real nice. Do you have any downloads on it?

theduke86

03-19-2006, 02:37 AM

mattsmith

03-19-2006, 02:46 AM

Matt,
I never actually called Erskine an accountant at all. It doesn't mean anything else BUT safe, plus, it was a metaphor, saying Erskine was AS risky AS an accountant. Then again, how creative is your accountant with your taxes? =)

I wouldn't know man. My tax stuff is going to be pretty simple. I'm 16 (lol).

Knit TV is Knitting Factory television from BET on Jazz. We used to get it in North Carolina, but not here in Michigan. Sometimes it would be perfect. But alot of times it was just real sad. And Miles played Cyndi Lauper covers because he could. When you create a half dozen styles by yourself (imo) everybody should just step back and see if it works. I think this is why alot of people put up with Ornette's Prime Time band.

Yeah, you're right this whole thing about young guys trying to sound like they are 100 years old as their main gig IS pretty tired. Nobody in my family is any kind of Wynton fan. My dad knew Wynton and Branford when they were comin' up in New Orleans and my grandad used to play some with Ellis. The report was that they were all nice guys except for Wynton who was a know it all back then even when he was like 13 years old. Dad says a bunch of them even chased him down Royal Street one day. He also said that when Wynton got big that jazz just stopped cold. I believe that.

But then man I look at the players in my own family. My dad has played every kind of jazz there is and he likes it all equally the same. And when he plays an older style like Bix or something, he brings somethin' new to it. Then we spend all this time in Romania where everybody is trying to be like cutting edge avant garde or Laswell style fusion and he just jumps into that too. But he used to run a monster big band that played in the Woody, Buddy Rich style. In other words the kind you probably don't like. Mom says he would lead a gig with that band and then run and play improv multifonic trombone music by himself in a art house. She asked him how he could make such a switch and he said he felt that both musics came from the same place.

I asked my musician family members about all the different music they do last Christmas when they were gettin' on me about just bein into mostly Coltrane and Miles and they even encouraged me to stick for awhile with WFD, which is not even a music event but something that introduces you to alot of interesting musicians. They answered that jazz especially was too small to have cliques and all the fighting in it was crazy. Its kind of like animals that eat their young. Or as Grandad said, animals who eat their elders.

jazzgregg

03-19-2006, 06:23 AM

Gregg- You seem like a really smart guy, and I respect your opinion, but man, there's something hip about the stuff that Jeff Hamilton plays. Even if it's old school (some might say square) there's something cool about just laying down a huge swinging groove and letting soloists ride on top of that. That's his artistic statement- Philly Joe Jones and Max Roach, not Hamid Drake's adventures into the unknown. Not really any less valid, I find both equally pleasing to listen to at different times...
You live in Toronto, you must be familiar with Terry Clarke? I wonder what you'd think of him- he's my favorite Canadian player. You'd have a hard time finding a better drummer anywhere.
Andrew,
You're still young, someday you'll be able to put things in perspective. Saying that it would be hard to find a better drummer anywhere is just silly. There's no better, remember? Only different and I'm not answering that Terry Clarke question because you have a good idea of my tastes. You need to look harder, even in Canada.

Have you heard much Mel Lewis? Jake Hanna? Shelly Manne? I'd say no judging by the Hamilton statement. Old school isn't square, it's just older. What's square is cats making a career on someone elses vibe. What you hear as hip in Hamilton is the Mel Lewis part. Listen to THAT guy, seriously. What makes Bill Stewart great to you? How about Brian Blade? Is it okay if I'm an artist and my painting looks just like a Renior, but more like my attempt at it? To me, no it isn't. I just came from a nice evening gig where I played standards and it was great, it was fun. It was at an art show and although I didn't like everything displayed, it was all individual. That's what I ask.

G

jazzgregg

03-19-2006, 06:25 AM

Yeah, you're right this whole thing about young guys trying to sound like they are 100 years old as their main gig IS pretty tired.

And you're 16? Nice.

G

Stu_Strib

03-19-2006, 10:22 AM

S
ASometimes I just can't resist though. Like when Wynton is mentioned or someone pipes in with a reccomendation reccomending the only album they've heard by the artist and so on. I know you do too, Stu, I've read your posts!

G

Well you obviously have a much higher understanding and regard for jazz than I (although I'm no slouch, I just have a fledgling understanding of the huge discography). My personal likes for Wynton have much more to do with the fact that I've actually played with him! At that time though, I was a young immature drummer into Journey and Loverboy (1984 anyone?).

Yes it is all an opinion, but I am not basing my Wynton recommendations on one album. I like "Black Codes" very much, and recommend it heartily to anyone intersted in Jazz that is just getting into it. I think it is a very logical progression from rock stuff into Jazz. I also think this is why I have such an affinity for Hard Bop, as it is a much smoother transistion into Jazz.

I've checked out some Joey Baron, and for all his talent, all I can say is "not my thing". I have several Scofield recordings, and I seem to not care as much about the drumming (except Bill Stewart's) because most the stuff I have is more straight forward and funky than jazzy.

And you can be a dick all you want, I'm a fully grown and have been known to be sorta of one myself on here at times ;-)

I just don't hear anything to hate about Jeff Hamilton. Again, I consider myself to be an expert rock/blues drummer and a higher end jazz drummer. I seem to be able to spot talent. Examples of sloppy playing, please?

Also, I think it is just an issue of taste, but I quite LIKE rehashing old ideas. I'm not really a progressive, and really don't care to mess with a good thing. That stuff from the 50s was great, so what's the point of changing it? I quite like the fact that modern guys can play the stuff as a tip-o-the-hat to the masters before them. I also happen to really enjoy playing cover tunes in rock/blues bands. So I guess I don't gripe about the "tired" sound of guys trying to be like the hard bop era. After all, that was the whole point of my thread. Help me find modern guys playing in the style of 50s bop/hard bop! Let's not forget the point of the thread in the first place!

I agree that smooth jazz is pretty crappy, but I wouldn't kick a smooth jazz gig out of bed, if you know what I mean. I would expect to get flamed out of this thread if I said "Hey check out some sweet Kenny G!", but Wynton?

Greg, you should check out Matt Smith's website. He may only be 16, but he runs circles around most of us. He is from a jazz family and been around it all his life. I've been playing for 22 years and I'm 36, and I think Matt has more experience than me. He is the RARE occassion that age really is irrelevant on Drummerworld threads.

Finally, I would really like to just vent and say that buying music online is such a pain. You get NO liner notes and I spend hours trying to find who played on what track of which album! It makes it so frustrating trying to talk about certain drummers in here, when you aren't sure who it was playing.

fly

03-19-2006, 11:54 AM

JazzGreg- I pretty much agree with you on this Jeff Hamilton thing, I mean Obviously he can swing and he has a good feel but yes he is just copping off Mel Lewis, Philly, Shelly Man, and to my ears also some Vernel Fournier( I saw Hamilton play Poininciana live) and yea I dont dig it when shit is kind of directly beeing ripped off.

As far as rehashing old ideas I mean in can totally be done in a fresh way. I mean look at someone like Joe Lovano, or even Brad Mehldau playing standards in a really fresh way , this is just my opinion.

Do you play with guys like David Braid over in TO? just wondering cause I tend to catch that guy play alot when he comes over to Vancouver.

Bernhard

03-19-2006, 02:18 PM

I pretty much agree with you on this Jeff Hamilton thing, I mean Obviously he can swing and he has a good feel but yes he is just copping off Mel Lewis, Philly, Shelly Man, and to my ears also some Vernel Fournier and yea I dont dig it when shit is kind of directly beeing ripped off.

No, I can't agree with this. See it the other way: Saxophonists or pianist and bassist are desperately looking for a smooth, brushoriented and swinging supporting drummer.... their kind of jazz.....

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!

Just saw Joe Lovano with Lewis Nash and Peter Erskine with Diana Krall and Jeff Hamilton with his own Big Band!!!!

Bernhard

jazzgregg

03-19-2006, 03:09 PM

..

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!

I mentioned this earlier too, and while I don't care for Hamilton's style, there are people that want a replication of the the old cats for their music. When you want a sound like that, you have your Nash's and Hamilton's.

G

Guillermo

03-19-2006, 04:18 PM

No, I can't agree with this. See it the other way: Saxophonists or pianist and bassist are desperately looking for a smooth, brushoriented and swinging supporting drummer.... their kind of jazz.....

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!

Just saw Joe Lovano with Lewis Nash and Peter Erskine with Diana Krall and Jeff Hamilton with his own Big Band!!!!

Bernhard

This in an interesting point...

If it's a rock drummer playing on a song that calls for a basic 8th note 4/4 groove, and he just lays it in... and it is well done, we acknowledge that as "playing for the song"?... even if it's been done one million times before?

The same can happen in any other style... sometimes playing what is called for means digging into a style or a traditional way of doing things... I have never heard someone say the drum parts of "Addicted to Love" or "Highway to hell" were SPECIALLY UN-original... they are just what they have to be.

So from that perspective, I think that statement is an interesting point.

mattsmith

03-19-2006, 05:02 PM

I mentioned this earlier too, and while I don't care for Hamilton's style, there are people that want a replication of the the old cats for their music. When you want a sound like that, you have your Nash's and Hamilton's.

G
OK, I'm gonna try to say this right. I just wish I could do this as smartly as some of you guys with right words and such. That's why I got my dad with me right now. These are my opinions but he has a better way of putting it together. These essays that jazzgregg brings us are above my writing skills (lol).

I think its more about this and I hear this from my dad all the time. Jazz history is bein' written right now for the rest of history. After Miles left the fusion in the 70s it went disco and jazz was bad except for some Freddie Hubbard (imo). Then Wynton came and some people said thank you, the older stuff again. My family thinks its real important to get history about jazz correct and dad says it was time in the 80s for people to step back and get this stuff in school books because the old jazz books were written like comics and nobody was goin' to study those books in a real school. But jazz wasn't supposed to just stop.

The problem was Wynton was not supposed to be the guy who did this. He has no education in jazz history and according to dad he used to make stuff up and everybody just went along cause they thought they were supposed to. See, my dad reads research papers at IAJE every year where real historians work real hard to get stuff right. Wynton just talks junk to reporters and his stuff is what is taken as the truth. I think he started off as a great trumpet player but he never made new music and when he went to those wierd new trumpets even that wasn't as good. He was also hateful about racial issues and that wasn't right.

But the biggest problem was he created a whole new group of American jazz guys who didn't think anything new should be created in jazz. They were actually makin' fun of guys like Dave Douglas and alot of the guys jazzgregg likes and tried to keep em from gettin' gigs and such. This is how the war started. Jazzgregg is right, jazz is supposed to be about goin' forward and these new guys didn't want that. Its why Hargrove, Redman and a bunch more don't do much for me. Its been done already by better guys. Sometimes I got so tired of this new old stuff that I started gettin' interested in older rock music like Hendrix and Santana and I was glad I did.

Now (imo) the other side of it is Gregg's group who think the blackboard is supposed to be erased every ten years and if you don't move forward that isn't right to them. I think some of this opinion is reactin' to what was said before. But thats like sayin Beethovens no good because he was 200 years ago and if you play Beethoven you're stupid. My family thinks jazz is too small to have civil wars all the time and there is room for both to exist at the same time. This includes a sincere old school drummer like Hamilton who makes no excuses or complaints about who he is. Sorry if you don't like swingin' big bands Gregg. There not my first choice either but hard swing is good and he swings hard.

I heard some of jazzgregg's music and alot of its pretty cool. Stu seems like a cool guy to me too and I bet he can also seriously play. Duke too. I guess we should always admire the creators but everybody isn't rasied to be one and they have a right to make good CDs too that can be enjoyed when you don't want a challenge. Does this make sense? I don't know anymore. Dad just rolled his eyes and left the room (lol). and I'm not as good as some of you guys think. I still got a whole lot to learn.

Bernhard

03-19-2006, 05:41 PM

Thanks Mattsmith - and your Dad.

(Be happy to have a dad like him - hope he supports your drumming, does he?)

Bernhard

mattsmith

03-19-2006, 06:28 PM

Thanks Mattsmith - and your Dad.

(Be happy to have a dad like him - hope he supports your drumming, does he?)

Bernhard
Thanks Bernhard. Its funny what you say because Boo McAffee from WFD said the same thing about my dad and me when we actually get on each others nerves all the time (lol). This is especially about school work and such. I get to thinking about music so much that I need to be spending more time on biology and history and math. My family supports music careers and my drumming but they want to make sure your really serious about it because its hard life even when things do well. Everybody thinks its about sittin' around playing gigs when its really a lot tougher than that. I watch how my family members go with their careers and it really is up and down sometimes. Like my Dad really dislikes his job now when just two years ago he was a hero in Europe. But he's still the same guy. Thats the way it goes.

Dad thinks I need to spend more time being versatile like gettin' with mallet and keyboard skills that I am only now gettin' around to. He thinks I need to step away a little from jazz and see the good in other music and being a more all around guy, especially in being an expert sight reader. He really gets disgusted that I don't respect classical more but I like Stravinsky and we play this cool piece in school wind ensemble called "postcards" which is alot like that. But we both agree that some of those classical guys standing there like robots for an hour to play one triangle beat is pretty funny.

theduke86

03-19-2006, 08:47 PM

Andrew,
You're still young, someday you'll be able to put things in perspective. Saying that it would be hard to find a better drummer anywhere is just silly. There's no better, remember? Only different and I'm not answering that Terry Clarke question because you have a good idea of my tastes. You need to look harder, even in Canada.

Have you heard much Mel Lewis? Jake Hanna? Shelly Manne? I'd say no judging by the Hamilton statement. Old school isn't square, it's just older. What's square is cats making a career on someone elses vibe. What you hear as hip in Hamilton is the Mel Lewis part. Listen to THAT guy, seriously. What makes Bill Stewart great to you? How about Brian Blade? Is it okay if I'm an artist and my painting looks just like a Renior, but more like my attempt at it? To me, no it isn't. I just came from a nice evening gig where I played standards and it was great, it was fun. It was at an art show and although I didn't like everything displayed, it was all individual. That's what I ask.

G

I would have guessed you'd be cool with Terry's playing- I think he's fabulous. Last time I saw him I thought it sounded like Jack DeJohnette. Technically and creatively speaking, he's awesome. That's why cats like Jim Hall or less well known Canadian heavies like PJ Perry or Chase Sanborn, Neil Swenson etc. hire him- he can play in any style of any drummer (including his own distinctive style), support the soloist and take great solos.
I don't necessarily agree about making a career on someone else's vibe is square. I'm sure you're familiar with Alex Dean, one of the heavier Toronto horn players (Up there with Mike Murley and Kelly Jefferson et al.). Last year on a trip to Toronto, I sat in one one of his masterclasses at Humber College (I have quite a few friends there). He said that north of the border, one must make a career being able to play like someone else. He played 5-6 different solos then to illustrate his point, ranging from Charlie Parker to John Coltrane to Wayne Shorter to Chris Potter. And the more I hear good drummers- they're building off of someone else's vibe. It's incredibly difficult to make a completely creative playing style. Then's only 12 notes in music, and a finite number of ways to arrange them to make new compositions. Obviously we aren't working with the same system on the drums, but the point remains the same. Plus, everyone listens to their influences- it's impossible to avoid being influenced. Now since I'm a younger guy, I'm trying to create my own style out of transcriptions of everyone from Max Roach to Bill Stewart, it's great to play like these guys!
Obviously in the case of Jeff Hamilton, there's a room for his vibe. Or Lewis Nash. Or whatever. Last I checked, Jeff Hamilton gets paid more for jazz gigs than just about anyone. Certainly on this message board, anyways. To answer your question, I'm familiar with all of those drummers, especially Shelly. He's my favorite west coast guy and I've checked his vibe out quite a bit. I love old school drumming- some of my favorites are Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Shelly Manne et al... I think old school stuff is great.... as long as you're doing something with it. Sometimes, when a drummer listens to something, he copies it so much that it becomes a part of him. You could probably say that jazz drumming stopped being completely creative at Jack DeJohnette in the 70's. Would this be wrong? I'd tend to think so, but a healthy argument can be played. All of what us drummers play in the jazz context has been tried and played before and played better. It's the arrangement and different influences that make us individual unique players. For example, one of my current teachers, Tyler Hornby is a well influenced player- sometimes you hear Roy Haynes, sometimes a little Bill Stewart, sometimes Max Roach, sometimes even a little Weckl. Does this mean Ty's not original? I don't think so. Gregg, you may find his drumming derisive and copycat of others but objectively speaking, it's still good.
To use your art comparison, what if a successful writer started using vocabulary reminiscent of Ernest Hemingway? Would it make his novel without worth? Probably not. You have to view art on it's own- objectively without taint from other sources sometimes. When I hear a drummer, I hear what HE'S playing. Not what reminds of Tony Williams forty years ago.
Again, I think you're a smart guy- obviously knowlegable about the jazz idiom. I love that stuff on your website, it's pretty damn cool! If we can't find a middle ground, let's agree to disagree.

Stu_Strib

03-19-2006, 09:14 PM

Stu- As far as refrences to Hamilton's sloppyness, it's the way he plays, to me, man. Any number of recordings (except maybe the Krall stuff so much), especially with the Clayton Hamilton Orchestra.

What about the Scott Hamilton, Tenorshoes cd? I bought that one just on the drum sound alone, not even knowing it was Hamilton on drums.

Interesting point about 'Black Codes' (and Hard Bop) being an easy gateway to Jazz from rock. Why do you say that ( I'd likley agree, but I was wondering why you think so!)?.

Well without an indepth analysis, I just really think it, well, kinda rocks ;-) It has a big powerful drum sound, lots of funk influenced grooves, just an all out great album (and it swings!) I guess, in layman terms, is it isn't "boring" or disconnected as some free jazz stuff tends to get for some people. Chambers of the Tain is a great drum piece. I'd like to hear more Tain stuff.

But I do disagree heartily with something you said. You can't deny something's greatness just because it is old. Wynton DID record that, and it WAS/IS great and you can't take that away, no matter how many shifts in Jazz occur. I quite liked his band at the Apple Computer convention and gladly snapped up those 2 tunes on iTunes when they became available. That drummer is great. His name is Ali something?

That's why I found the Neo Swing crap of the 90's (what, like 2 weeks somewhere in there) a load of horseshit.

Ok, I have to tell you, I dabbled with the guys in Cherry Poppin' Daddies. Not much, just kinda hung out with a few of them, tried really hard to get in on a session, blah blah. They were all very accomplished jazz students at the University of Oregon. Yeah, it was crap, but they were all pretty devoted to jazz and were looking to get it into the mainstream. The trumpet player (Dana Heitman, I believe was his name) was destined for greatness. Or great as the Pacific NW can let you be.

Good times!

I know where you're coming from, Stu and whether you're a Jazz guy or not, this discussion is a typical 'modernist v.s. traditionalist' discussion I've personally had many times (surprise, surprise=).

Actually I'm not disparaging either, nor do I fit into either group. For this thread though, I was just looking for guys who might be more traditionalist.

I was serious in reccomending the Blue Note remastered stuff though. Sounds great and music by the people for whom the term 'Hard Bop' was invented to describe. Seriously.

Here's what I own from Blue Note (some of it remastered):

Lee Morgan, The Complete Blue Note Sessions
Art Blakey (too many to mention, he's one of my faves)
Cannonball Adderly, Quintet Live in Chicago (I love this cd!), Something Else (one of my best cds!)
Brubeck, Time Out (obviously great)
Dexter Gordon, Go! (remastered!)
Horace Silver (Blowin' the Blues away remastered), Silver's Serenade
Miles Davis (Kind of Blue)
Coltrane (nearly everything he's ever recorded through mixture of beg, borrow, steal, buy)
Thelonius Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall
Joe Henderson In 'n Out, Straight no Chaser...

and some others that are on my computer back in the states. Also I have lots of one ofs of other guys from other labels, but I always keep coming back to the Blue Note stuff.

Thanks for all the input though, I've really learned a lot of new names to check out. My list is pretty common (Horace Silver was really the only guy I'd never heard of until recently). I did play in a pretty high level Jazz band in high school growing up (no snickering, we played serious stuff, one of the best in the state) so I was familiar with a lot of these standards. Of course when you are 14-18 and learning drums after 6 years of violin, the names, composers, song titles all tend to elude you at the time.

fly

03-19-2006, 11:52 PM

Greg
Man I have seen that band play before, it was great. Yea Froman is the man!! I have checked out my fair share of Metalwood, I mean living in Vancouver its just like a given thing over here. What is some other Froman stuff I should check out? My drum teacher right now actually studied with him, and I hope to also in a few years when I move outta Vancouver hopefully over to Berklee.

Now I didnt mean any disrexpect towords Jeff Hamilton or Lewis Nash but if I want to listen to this kind of style I can listen to Jimmy Cobb heres a guy who I have never seen anyone mention in this forum which is a disgrace. Jimmy Cobb is still around and he still swings and its a beutiful thing. There are also plenty of other guys who can play extremly well in this stylistic idiom of "straight ahead" or "old school" it doesnt just revolve around Jeff Hamilton. I mean look at Greg Hutchinson or Kareem Riggins, I think both these guys played with Ray Brown after Jeff and these are cats who can honestly play like Philly but they dont wear it on their sleeves if you know what I mean.

Duke- I think I have talked to you about this before to do with Terry Clarke. I mean I can never stop listening to that classic Jim Hall trio recording. I actually heard this other recoding that was relatively recent with Jim, Terry Clarke, Chris Potter, and a string quartet. I was pretty floored. Terry Clarke is pretty hard not to dig, I mean just listen to his time, with that guy its all about his time.

Stu- Yea Ali Jackson is his name. He is one drummer who kind of plays traditionally who I can dig. He is a master of playing things that are so down to the point. Surprisingly I havenet checked out the stuff with Wynton. The stuff I checked out ALOT is that new Kurt Rosenwinkel cd called Deep Song. Ali is on like just over have the tunes , the other half is Jeff Ballard. Myself being a huge Jeff guy was at first a little bit peeved but after listening to the recording for like 4-5 months I can really appreciate his playings.

Alright , Gotta go practice.

jazzgregg

03-20-2006, 03:57 AM

Greg
Man I have seen that band play before, it was great. Yea Froman is the man!! I have checked out my fair share of Metalwood, I mean living in Vancouver its just like a given thing over here. What is some other Froman stuff I should check out? My drum teacher right now actually studied with him, and I hope to also in a few years when I move outta Vancouver hopefully over to Berklee.

Tommy Smith's 'Reminiscence', 'Forward Motion', Misty Morning and No Time' and 'Standards' (good luck finding this one I got mine in a dinky shop in Gloucester Mass.)

Chris Tarry's 'Sevyns' and 'Unition'

Lazlo Gardony's 'The Secret' (again, good luck, unfortunately)

Rick Margitza's 'Heart of Hearts'

Forman is a true master and yet so unrecognized. Even though he's lived in NY 22 years, he is, IMO Canada's #1 drummer. Those of you who have't seen him, you should. Who's your teacher, fly?

Now I didnt mean any disrexpect towords Jeff Hamilton or Lewis Nash but if I want to listen to this kind of style I can listen to Jimmy Cobb heres a guy who I have never seen anyone mention in this forum which is a disgrace. Jimmy Cobb is still around and he still swings and its a beutiful thing. There are also plenty of other guys who can play extremly well in this stylistic idiom of "straight ahead" or "old school" it doesnt just revolve around Jeff Hamilton. I mean look at Greg Hutchinson or Kareem Riggins, I think both these guys played with Ray Brown after Jeff and these are cats who can honestly play like Philly but they dont wear it on their sleeves if you know what I mean.
Exactly.

And thanks very much to those who said they dug my stuff. I DO sell it too, you know=)

G

fly

03-20-2006, 04:15 AM

My teacher right now is Bernie Arai, i think hes on this one Chris Tarry recording with Chris Gestrin. I think what Bernie did was take some lessons with Froman and then Froman hooked him up with Bill Stewart.

mattsmith

03-20-2006, 04:31 AM

I'll leave this for now and respond to fly next post. I feel what with stirring up xxxx, I should be responsible for it=)
G
Naw man, you talk about stuff you know and you REALLY are a challenge me guy. I think you are answering to more now because you kind of got a free pass for awhile because you were so upfront about your view and your vibe that some people didn't know how to follow up, because drummerworld forum is very polite. Also I don't think people know how to handle upfront talk without thinkin somebodys trying to hurt their feelings or something. But who cares about that cause your not tryin' to do that. Keep it comin'.

Hey man I would much more want to have our talks on this thread then some of that other stuff with the more super popular guys. Those guys aren't goin' to read these long posts anyway(lol).

theduke86

03-20-2006, 04:39 AM

Gregg, I think I read way too much into what you're saying. I find myself agreeing with you on your last post on most counts. Cheers mate. Next time I head down to TO (I'm heading to Montreal or Toronto for sure next year) I'll be sure to look up with one of your shows.
Great thread though guys. By the way, my teacher's site is www.tylerhornby.com

Stu_Strib

03-20-2006, 08:07 AM

jazzgregg

03-20-2006, 08:21 AM

Naw man, you talk about stuff you know and you REALLY are a challenge me guy. I think you are answering to more now because you kind of got a free pass for awhile because you were so upfront about your view and your vibe that some people didn't know how to follow up, because drummerworld forum is very polite. Also I don't think people know how to handle upfront talk without thinkin somebodys trying to hurt their feelings or something. But who cares about that cause your not tryin' to do that. Keep it comin'.

Hey man I would much more want to have our talks on this thread then some of that other stuff with the more super popular guys. Those guys aren't goin' to read these long posts anyway(lol).

Matt,
Oh, you mean THAT kind of 'challenge me'....Yeah, that's true. lol. I thought you meant with music...
Agreed man, agreed. Very true. And I'm always up for a good discussion, debate or argument too (gee, really?)

Andrew,
It's probably unlikely you read too much into what I'm saying, I say more than I appear to=).

fly- So your guy studies with Bill now?! That's cool, man. What Tarry recording is it? I love Chris' playing in Metalwood and otherwise, and he's such a nice cat. Froman is one of the best teachers and people I know. If you ever do decide on Berklee, let me know.

Of course, I do have opinions that may piss people off, I know that, and that's fine with me. At the same time, it's important, like Matt said, that it's about the music (or the cereal, or the Wendy's crispy chicken or whatever the topic is), not the person. That doesn't mean we don't learn about the people posting the opinions.
G

jazzgregg

03-20-2006, 08:52 AM

I thought RVG was just remaster Blue Note? I only have the stuff from iTunes, so it is impossible to tell. I'm looking at the cover art and it definitely LOOKS like blue note (Dexter Gordon Go! RVG Edition).

See, online music sucks sometimes!

The drummer is great on this one (Billy Higgins??)

EDIT!: I see better now on Horace Silver "Blowin' the Blues Away", the RVG edition, it is Blue Note Label #84017. Which of my posts weren't Blue Note then? Or does RVG do stuff for multiple labels. I can't quite read what it says on the Dexter Gordon one, but it 'looks like' smudged word note (I assumed Blue)

Stu,
Well, you'll never get great sound from an mp3, no matter where you get it, compared to a nice clean disc. I learned this when I got an ipod....I hate online music, I love packaging too much, though I'm sure my wife would like a dining room instead of a CD library...nah.

Yeah, the RVG series is only Blue Note, but Rudy Van Gelder himself is doing some remastering for other labels, though I'm not sure which ones exactly (not called the RVG series). It's the combination of his remastering (and initial recording) and the right group that will give you what you want from that era, IMO.

Billy Higgins. Yes. Smiling Billy. Doesn't his whole groove smile at your ears? 'Go' is a BN, you're right. Billy was one of the greats and I love Dexter too. Try 'Dexter Calling' with Philly Joe (on Blue Note). That was my first Dex.

It doesn't matter what label the discs you own are on if you like them, but for some, describing a 'Blue Note sound' is like describing an "ECM' sound in that, if you like the label, you like most of the artists.

However, in the interests of furthering your Jazz knowledge (and getting you to put away that Hamilton guy=), here you are:

Lee Morgan, The Complete Blue Note Sessions- not BN (just kidding=)

Art Blakey (too many to mention, he's one of my faves) many are on BN, it depends on the album. Most (all?) Jazz Messengers are BN's, I think.
Cannonball Adderly, Quintet Live in Chicago (I love this cd!)-Verve,not BN (A lot of the Verve Master Series stuff -which my copy of this is- sound pretty good, they have good remastering engineers, though I forget who they are..)
Something Else (one of my best cds!)-BN
Brubeck, Time Out (obviously great)-Columbia, not BN
Dexter Gordon, Go! (remastered!)- BN
Horace Silver (Blowin' the Blues away remastered), Silver's Serenade-BN
Miles Davis (Kind of Blue)- Columbia (depending on the reissue, your copy may sound pristine, or like shit=)
Coltrane (nearly everything he's ever recorded through mixture of beg, borrow, steal, buy) Coltrane recorded only one album for BN, 'Blue Train'. He did a bunch of stuff on Atlantic and Impulse with a few recordings on smaller labels like Bethlehem here and there. The remastered Impulse stuff sounds great, IMO, as does 'Blue Train', but the Atlantic not as good, IMO. Musically, Trane was Trane.
Thelonius Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall--BN
Joe Henderson In 'n Out, Straight no Chaser... Polygram, not BN. IMO, this sounds like ass. (sond wise, obviously...)

Look here for more info on the RVG specific stuff:
http://www.doubletimejazz.com/rvg.htm

Did I mention I was a huge record/CD collector and sort of an audiophile?=)
Hope that helps.

G

Guillermo

03-20-2006, 03:39 PM

Cannonball Adderley's "Somethin' else" and Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" are the two best sounding recordings I think I have ever heard... specially on a good hi-fi system, full blast.

Many audiophiles like roasting ECM for their massive reverb... I personally think that is part of their character and not one of my CDs from the label has compromised clarity over that... exploring releases of labels is a great way to start learning and picking up the branches of the huge jazz tree.

About Billy Higgins, I love his playing... his album "Soweto" is a constant in my stereo... so quirky and naive at times, but at the same time one of the hardest swinging most sizzling things recorded... it just screams at you "jazz" and transports you to a small room with these guys.

Good jazz tells a story.

Drad-dog

03-22-2006, 12:07 AM

Hello folks.

I've been reading this thread and not posting 'cause I wanted to see how the conversation turned out. But here's my comments:

Wynton- Can't stand him. Smug, arrogant, full of BS and his music is passe.

Hamilton- I love this guy. I don't agree that he is unimaginitive. He's fun to watch. BUT, I do agree that he is very much old school and "inside" and sounds a lot like some drummers who came before him, so I can respect a person's opinion if they don't like his style.

Lastly, when I was in school and going through a rigorous stage in my development as a musician, one of the dudes I was jamming with said to me one day, "man, play more like ELVIN!" I was unable to articulate what about that statement bothered me, but now I realise I was pissed because I didn't WANT to sound like Elvin. I LOVE Elvin Jones and always will, but I am not an Elvin clone. He wanted me to cop someone else's vibe, and I'm not into it.

This applies to other types of music too. A rock 'n roll cover band will get more gigs in my town than almost anyone else. We've got a Zeppelin cover band, a Van Halen cover band, and an AC/DC cover band. Fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but I need to be creative in my own way, not someone else's way. Otherwise, I can't get my rocks off.

Jazz moves forward constantly. You can appreciate it's various eras along the way, but there will always be musicians on the forefront who keep it moving along, and good thing they do. Otherwise, we'd all still be listening to King Oliver and Scott Joplin.

This is one of the greatest all time threads!

Cheers.

jordanz

03-22-2006, 12:24 AM

+1 on the comment below this one.

Wynton is so smug and full of it that I can't stand 2 seconds of him.

Jeff Hamilton is GREAT with a capital GREAT. So what if he sounds like other people. EVERY drummer sounds like the drummers that he/she listened to. Buy a Clayton/Hamilton CD or two and tell me JH isn't awesome. Every see/listen to him play brushes?

fly

03-22-2006, 02:49 AM

I have seen him play live like 3 times at the Lionol Hampton Jazz festival. Yes I have seen him play brushes. Have u ever heard Verniel Fournier play brushes?

Guillermo

03-22-2006, 04:09 AM

I don't know about Wynton... I mean on one side, I understand the comments... on the other hand I think it is because of his success that it is such a bother.

I mean I have read interviews on Jazziz and Downbeat of guys that are AS full of it or even more, and because they are not as succesful, it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

Same goes for eccentrics... I remember reading jazz magazines from the 80's in wich they ROAST Miles Davis... yet his antics or claims were never in the likes of a Sun Ra, to name an example... whom opinion often sees as just another wacko ... ha, ha, ha.

Not to defend him... but I think it is more useful to just ignore rather than be enraged or offended about his work... I know my share of guys that have started listening to jazz with either Wynton or Branford... and that counts for something... that is very necessary in this time in wich jazz is seen by young people, even adults, as intellectual music for snob college professor that drive Saabs.

Heck, it beats starting out to Spyro Gyra, Bob James or Kenny G... ha, ha, ha.

I don't know, just a comment.. I used to ROAST people like that, believe me, you have no idea what a nasty critic I was... pure poison from my tongue... ha, ha, ha... I have learned with time, that focusing on more positive ways to look at things is better... and if it's not, well at least it's better for oneself.

Good luck.

jordanz

03-22-2006, 06:50 AM

I have seen him play live like 3 times at the Lionol Hampton Jazz festival. Yes I have seen him play brushes. Have u ever heard Verniel Fournier play brushes?

What does someone else's playing have to do with it? I'm judging Jeff Hamilton and I judge him to be great. The abilities of Verniel Fournier (whoever that is) are irrelevant.

brittc89

03-22-2006, 06:59 AM

What does someone else's playing have to do with it? I'm judging Jeff Hamilton and I judge him to be great. The abilities of Verniel Fournier (whoever that is) are irrelevant.
Who is Vernel Fournier?

Stu_Strib

03-22-2006, 09:49 AM

Wow, this thread is great. I don't quite understand all of the back-biting and criticism, but then again, this is a relatively new area to me. I never knew there were so many purists! I thought the jazz cats were very much banded together, but now I see there are very diverse "factions" of musicians. Very interesting indeed. The best part, unlike the other threads, is that no stupid name calling fights break out.

As for iPod and mp3; the majority of my iPod tunes are AAC (if purchased on iTunes) which is a lot better than mp3. I personally don't have discerning enough ears to care about FLAC or completely uncompressed files. I can tell the difference between a 128 mp3 and the 320s. I think 320 is the bare minimum for my ears/stereo system if it has to be mp3. The only mp3s I have are individual songs or albums I've bought online from jazz sites (i.e., not available on iTunes or the other big online stores).

I love the printed stuff, however, the places I've lived really have no selection in jazz. The last time I was surrounded by a good jazz culture was growing up in Eugene, OR, or when I lived in Monterey, CA in the early 90s.

I've been to probably 100 musical education events (clinics, seminars, small group performances, etc.) and my weekend with Wynton was anythin BUT smug. Maybe he's changed since 1988, but I found him, to this day, to be one of the most generous and insightful educators of aspiring young musicians. I think he might have a bit more passion for this than say appeasing his critics in Drummerworld ;-)

As for getting rid of the Hamilton stuff, I really only have the Scott Hamilton stuff. I think that guy is a great sax player. His sax sounds like a voice to me. I may be way off base here, but I really like jazz stuff for OTHER than the drums too sometimes. That one just had a combo of both great sounding drums and a great sounding frontman.

Oh yeah, and my dog's name is Dexter. That's how much I liked the album "Go!" ;-)

jazzgregg

03-22-2006, 10:39 AM

EVERY drummer sounds like the drummers that he/she listened to. Buy a Clayton/Hamilton CD or two and tell me JH isn't awesome. Every see/listen to him play brushes?

You know, I liked you from the Ronaldo avatar, then I read your post. You people are STILL NOT LISTENING.
For the the last time, it's not about 'showing the influences' of your heros, it's about ripping them off entirely.

Are you telling me to buy a Hamilton CD?? How do you think I arrived at my opinion (as did the others who share it)?

G

Pete Stoltman

03-22-2006, 03:20 PM

Stu, I think Jeff Hamilton may be along the lines of what you're talking about. He certainly exhibits influence of some of the greats. In addition he has had a pretty good career both as a sideman and as the co-leader of the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra. I think he is often overlooked as being one of the tastiest drummers playing jazz today.

Stu_Strib

03-22-2006, 06:14 PM

LOL, that's a bit too hardcore for my tastes. I'll just listen to it for what it is; a bunch of really solid jazz musicians playing in live in one of the greatest venues in America.

If Kenny G. actually played a song with swung 8ths I might actually disagree that he is crap. But he doesn't so he is, ;-)

I didn't even KNOW it was Wynton on that recording btw, so just because I found out it was him, it won't change the fact I like the recording (even if I had the same distaste for him, I'd still like it). I guess this is where you and I differ is all.

I can't think of any of my more mainstream friends that have suddenly gained a liking for jazz because of Wynton, so I'm not sure he's doing too much harm. I do know people who are into 'smooth jazz' which really doesn't even belong in the same category really. I think the fact people confuse smooth jazz with good jazz does more damage to jazz than Wynton ever has.

Just curious, what is it about his attitude that would peeve someone like yourself and turn people off of jazz? It seems your attitude would turn more people off to jazz than anything I see from Wynton (not dogging you, I'm just giving you a perspective from someone less hardcore about the issue than you...kinda like most people).

Also, I've noticed this is NOT just about Wynton either. I am shocked about the criticisms of Jeff Hamilton (and not just from jazzgreg), and the general apathy towards guys I consider legends, like Erskine. Are there really such deep divisions and strong likings for guys that are generally considered great? I don't want to be that kid that comes in and says "I don't see what's so great about Gadd", so help me out here ;-)

averypoordrummer

03-22-2006, 06:26 PM

stu, have you heard of seb rochford? he won the Rhythm best jazz drummer of 2005. he's currently playing for a group called the Polar Bears, who are based in Bristol. I've heard that he is amazing and really leads the band. I've heard that they jam at a pub in Bristol, I've got to find out where it is!

Stu_Strib

03-22-2006, 07:54 PM

Stu_Strib

03-22-2006, 08:03 PM

I have another interesting topic to think about (well maybe not for you guys, but I'll pick your brains anyhow).

Guys like DeJohnette and Tain have been around a long while and aren't really considered relics yet. So how has their playing 'moved forward' over the years? I hear a lot of Black Codes in Tains newer stuff. Or guys like Art Blakey. I didn't really hear much difference between his 50s hard bop stuff and the stuff right up before he died (late 80s/early 90s, right?). Is this a good thing or a bad thing? I think I want to agree with the concept of moving forward, but I'm kind of sitting on the fence right now. I see the merits in both approaches. I've been reading a lot, and one key thing about jazz that keeps popping up is to be good at jazz drumming you have to know tunes. How will knowing a 50 year old tune help me if my trio has 'moved forward' and beyond all the bop/hard bop stuff? I quite like the idea of playing in the old style as homage or tribute or whatever. Just something to think about.

I personally love when I hear a recording and can tell right away who the key players are. Obviously, I'm not very good at it, with such a smallish discography, but there are the obvious ones (Elvin and Art Blakey seem the easiest for me to pick out).

Stu

jazzgregg

03-22-2006, 09:09 PM

Hey jazzgregg, no offense, but now I see why so many people are quick to throw out the "jazz snob" label. I appreciate the dialogue so I'll keep my end a bit more civil than your last post. I appreciate your passion, but I have to admit, you are much more hard core than I am, and I am by no means "Joe Public" when it comes to Jazz music.
That's true, I'm pretty serious about it and as you can see, get riled up about it pretty easy (it pisses my wife off too=). On the other hand, I hope you weren't implying that I'm a Jazz snob, elitist or whatever. For me, at least, that means that they think that Jazz is the only real music and I definately do not think that. I think I mentioned on here that that 2 of my favorite shows from last year were Iron Maiden and Ornette Coleman.

I am new to the tradition of jazz, but I am by no means blissfully ignorant to the musicianship behind it. I've played a lot of it in my time, but have always lacked the deeper understanding of the history and roots. This aspect is a new interest to me, and will undoubtedly make me a better player. I think I have seriously downplayed my knowledge and skill, just so as not to talk out of my ass when I have an idea to put forward. So yes, I'm new to Jazz, but only in this aspect.

I am in no way a completely ignorant rock-music only kind of guy.

Fair enough, and yeah, as you might imagine, I do agree that knwing the history is very important to the playing and understanding of Jazz. I suppose my only thought here would be to not let Wynton teach you about the history of Jazz!

Also, I never said you were wrong about anything, so pointing out my newness in this conversation is irrelevant. I like the conversation because it is totally fascinating to me, and so much deeper and far reaching than I had previously thought. I would expect most of us in here to think Kenny G. is a poser, but I never expected it about some of the other guys.

Also, fair enough, I was unclear about your newness, I guess from what you had been saying in previous posts, I'm glad you cleared that up. Still, Jazz, like anything else, really, has mutitudes of opinions revolving around a central subject, in this case, Jazz.

It is safe to say, though, that you are much more on the hard-core end than I ever will be, regardless of how well versed I become! I don't mind not being so hardcore, because at least that way I don't have a bunch of crap cds I don't like ;-)

I totally respect your take; I just wish you could respect my budding interest in this topic and not shoot down everything I ask about.

Stu, really? I reccommended CDs to you, posted about the RVG stuff, sorted out your label questions and so on. What I shot down wasn't your opinion, it was what, as I said earlier,I percieved to be you saying 'I don't know about Jazz, but that can't be right' kind of thing, which in your last post you've cleared up for me.

I hinted that your opinions might be detrimental to jazz only because it is offputting to potentially new listeners. I understand you belong to the sect that believes jazz should be moving forward and all that, but what good does it to for the general state of jazz to shoot down anything someone does that doesn't fit your paradigm?

See above, re: shooting down. Also, if you recall, the specifics of Wynton we actually discussed (prior to his personality/impact on Jazz) was 'Black Codes', which I liked and reccommended 2 more CDs to you by that band. I'll add one more 'Marsalis Standard Time'.

Saying Wynton only has one fan, me, is silly. Maybe the more mature tastes in Jazz circles don't appreciate him much, but again, that type of snobbish behavior is kind of detrimental to Jazz as a whole. (Unless the goal is to have LESS fans of the genre). I get called a "jazz snob" in the other threads all the time (and I snicker, thinking of how not hardcore I am like some of you guys).

I never said Wynton has one fan- you, I said *I* personally only know 1 fan out of all the musicians I know- you. That's my point, actually. It isn't about appreciation of him, I've said that. Any musician that knows anything about trupet OR Jazz will know Wynton is a badass player, but that's never what 'mature' Jazz musicians are upset at him for. Don't mistake snobbishness for opinionated dedicated, or passionate. Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans, but they aren't football snobs, they're impassioned, loyal and dedicated United fans=)

I don't expect you to continue on explaining why you dislike Wynton. I clearly stated that it wasn't just about Wynton that surprised me (the vitriol against that is).

I keep asking about the deep divisions because it is totally fascinating to me, and I like a good conversation. I never knew! I have exactly zero jazz fans, so this is perhaps one of my only outlets to learn and share.

One more guy; what do you think of Ed Soph as either a musician or an educator? I seriuosly am considering going to UNT someday and finishing my Jazz Studies degree I started in 88 and never finished. UNT and Mr. Soph seem to be the way to go.

Thanks for all the opinions. I'd like to hear more from the others.

I guess after all this thread, I'm surprised you're surprised. After all the people that have been mentioned, the varied Jazz scenes and Matt Smith's Dad weighing in, I would've thought that sort of surprise would've been gone by now=) It's pretty clear that on here, I'm a monority, but it all depnds on who you know, I suppose.
Learning and sharing are obviously important, that's what we come to these boards for! If someone asks something I know about, I try and help, if I don't know something, I want to learn. I get handed discs on regular basis to listen to, from students, people at shows and so on. I also learn what the trends are (I think Joey Jordison is pretty good, actually). I would never want to take away anyones outlets for music or art, that's for sure. I might come off as an a**hole, but I'm not, I'm just not joking about Jazz music=)

As for Ed Soph: I don't know that much about him, but what I've heard, I've heard good things. I met Steve Hougton a while back at an IAJE confrence and he had really nice things to say about Ed as well. Good luck finishing the degree! Isn't Stefan Karlsson at UNT as well? He's a great pianist.

G
p.s. (Glory, Glory Man United!)

theduke86

03-22-2006, 10:49 PM

Stu- I've never been to UNT, but it seems to be one of the places to go... Ideally, you want to live in the New York area to learn about jazz, but UNT's got some great stuff. On the other hand, there are 75 drummers, and I don't know how good you are, but there's like 40-50 groups I think. So, if you're in the bottom third, goodbye Stu's playing chances. I think the best thing about a music school is the abillity to play with people in a group and have a professional looking over your shoulder. Ed Soph is a fantastic teacher... however, you have to remember only the 8-10 best students there study with him, right? So, if you're not in the 8-10, you'll probably be studying with a master's student. Which in my opinion is helpful, but lame.
There are other options... New School in New York is great. William Patterson College and Rutgers are great, awesome teachers. I think you want to hook up with a guy like John Riley for jazz- which you'll get at New School or William Patterson. The teacher at Rutgers is Ralph Peterson Jr. who's a very, very good player- not COMPLETELY technically with it but he sounds great still and teaches very well. If you want to check out Boston, Berklee and New England Conservatory are GREAT places to go. At Berklee for jazz guys, there's Terri Lyne Carrington, Ian Froman (who is a GREAT drummer... way way better than his metalwood recordings would suggest although he sounds good on those), Skip Hadden teaches there too... As for NEC, guys like Gary Chaffee etc teach there... You know a school is good when you have Danilo Perez teaching your composition class.
You could also check out north of the border- McGill and University of Toronto are GREAT schools. People tend to forget there's 30 million people in Canada... There's a LOT of really happening drummers up here in Montreal or Toronto who can play circles around most NY guys.
Hope this was informative, Stu.

finnhiggins

03-22-2006, 11:39 PM

Wow, this thread really heated up since I last looked.

I do have a big problem with some of the attitudes that prevail in jazz. It's one of the big reasons I don't play a lot of it, to be honest. There's this whole "hip cat" attitude that seems to me to be the antithesis of personal expression: Your playing is under constant and often virulent assessment from people around you, all of whom want to give you (often conflicting) advice as if it is absolute gospel. But worse than that, it's not just playing - there's a serious push to make you conform in your musical thinking, language and appearance too. As they say, opinions are like ("gasholes" - ed), everybody has one. But in jazz, those aforementioned holes are an awful lot bigger.

The roots of this actually make a lot of sense - jazz had, historically, a very impressive system of apprenticeships of sorts, where musicians would being trained and improved by the players around them. But my general feeling is that the attitude of "hey, I'll teach you" has kind of turned into this alpha-male pissing contest in most jazz circles I've been a part of, where people are always jousting to make their advice the primary one on other players and worrying more about the status of themselves and their opinions over the actual music. I've found the atmosphere in a lot of jazz clubs rather fetid, to be honest.

Who cares? Isn't this supposed to be about music?

I do agree with being able to communicate your opinions on music freely. Personally I really don't like what Mike Portnoy does on a drum kit, and I'm happy to say so. Ditto Weckl, although that's more about his choice of musical environments. But really, I do think that jazz is somewhat doomed by current attitudes. If there's any one style where I feel imposed upon to conform to a certain attitude, appearance or way of thinking it is most certainly jazz. Most other styles seem to have got over this, but ironically for such a musician-heavy style jazz seems incredibly dominated by image and groupthink.

Edit: Did I mention I really enjoy listening to jazz? Sorry, got carried away and forgot that bit. I really do. But I just can't see myself playing it seriously, for the reasons mentioned above.

theduke86

03-23-2006, 02:48 AM

Finn- I hear that. Especially in the smaller urban centers, there are so many ne'er do wells who preach their advice as the absolute truth to anyone they feel who needs it. I guess that's due to the over-academization of the style- I think schools are fantastic, that's the route I'm pursuing, but I think that the school environment can breed these attitudes. Once Joe Jazzer has done a degree at whatever school, he'll assume he knows everything. Jazz can get stuck in the mud for this reason, jazz is an evolutionary music that should progress. Once Joe Jazzer stops learning and closes his mind to other things except his own opinion, then his own playing and creative vision are stifled by the shutters over his eyes.
Happens all the time. The good guys never let this happen.

Drad-dog

03-23-2006, 03:13 AM

Finn,

Your observations about jazz are valid. But I would respectfully suggest that they are of someone on the outside looking in.

I don't think jazz has the 'conform or else you're not hip' objective that you have sensed. It's more of a 'don't piss in my face and call it rain' objective. That's what all the scrutiny and cutting is about. One thing a true jazz fan hates more than anything else is someone on stage who's "faking it."

Unfortunately, this does not always make for a very welcoming atmosphere. I'm guessing that's the "fetid" atmosphere you've noticed before.

Keep swingin' anyway, bro!
Cheers

brittc89

03-23-2006, 04:03 AM

Finn- I know what youre saying. However, I find that for all the total jackasses out there in the jazz community, there are about half as many people who are genuinely trying to help. And I just shrug off the nay-sayers for the most part. If someone gets in my face about the ride cymbal pattern I played in the 5th verse, no big deal. I dont really care. If they make a valid point Ill use it, but if theyre just slashing at me to cut me down, I dont really even take it into consideration. I had an experience lately though that I found really hurt me. It was the Jazz instructor at University of Northern Colorado. That man came into our rehearsal and just cut me down as far as he could. As far as Ive ever been. Just me, no trumpets, saxaphones or trombones. I honestly hate that man. He turned me off of drums for about a month. I didnt even wanna pick up sticks. I didnt understand what I had done so wrong. I still really dont. And when I reflect I wouldve had a lot of joy in telling this piano playing "jazzer" to sit down and play the part he thought would fit better. That was a bit off topic, but thats my own little experience with the jazz jerk attitude. So I definitely getcha Finn, cuz Ive definitely been there.

theduke86

03-23-2006, 07:08 AM

britt- that wasn't Chip Stevens, was it? Maybe Chip teaches at Boulder... I can't remember. Chip is a wonderful man.

brittc89

03-23-2006, 07:25 AM

britt- that wasn't Chip Stevens, was it? Maybe Chip teaches at Boulder... I can't remember. Chip is a wonderful man.
No, it was Dana Landry i think? All I know is that he definitely went for the kill with me. Crazy stuff.

jazzgregg

03-23-2006, 06:17 PM

Finn- To me, any kind of attitude that rails against personal expression is the wrong one (am I that obvious?=) On the one hand, I agree with Drad-Dog that for the most part, Jazz musicians aren't about that, they are just after quality music which is getting rarer and rarer and prefer honesty in music. Most Jazz musicians aren't out to criticize or cut down anothers playing unless, as Drad said, it's fake. Rather, we buy our friends albums, we support them at their shows, we try and hear new talent with an open mind. At the same time though certain 'goups' of musicians are more likely to be the way you're talking about than others. There are, I think like Andrew said, certain centres where it's more inclined to happen.

OZJazzer- It's safe to say that ever since Wynton made his changover from ripping Bop cat to whatever he is now, this argument has been going on. No one is winning (except maybe Wynton who's seriously rich now-=). I'm not going to say anyhting more on the subject because it never makes a difference anyway (don't worry you pro Wynton-ers, you don't make a difference to us either!).

With regards to your comments on Hamilton- you're right, not everyone can be an Elvin or a Tony, that's true, if Jazz was only a music for innovators, we'd have hardly anything of what we had now. If all we had were imitators though, (i.e. Hamilton) everyone would sound the same. As far as my opinion goes, Carl Allen and Kenny Washington are't led to from these guys, they're in the same boat as Hamilton, Kenny is actually steering that boat. Nevertheless, people see and hear things differently and that's what's cool about music. For me though, Bill Stewart and Carl Allen are not on the same level of concept and creativity (and modernity). No matter what I said that was misconstrued, Erskine leads to no one, he is LED to, plus, his stuff in Weather Report was more influential and important than anything Hamilton has ever played.

Re:Vernell- yeah, thanks for answering that question. I meant to answer earlier but I didn't. People need to know about Vernell! He was so slick, being from N.Orleans he had such a sweet groove and his brushwork was very influential. He would play the brush actually half retracted to get his famous sound. Miles' Kind of Blue was basically Miles saying 'I love Ahmad Jamal', or so he's said. The good thing is, you can probably find most of the Jamal recordings for pretty cheap and in used record stores. When I teach my students brushes, VF is one of the first guys I mention.

(and, Stu- Why do they call it football when the only time they kick the ball occurs before or after all the action of the game stops? As much as I know jordanz didnt read the whole thread(=), I'm with him on 'football'. One of my students calls it 'Tackle-ball', that's what I call it now)

For what it's worth,
G

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 01:02 AM

My goodness, I have been gone for a while and only got to observe this forum briefly last weekend. This has turned into a wonderful thread worthy of the archives. However, I am concerned about how the inappropriate language is creeping in. Please guys, we need to remember that kids read this forum for educational purposes.

Duke, I will answer your PM when I fix my computer. The message appears disabled.

Since there is so much to cover, I will merely contribute abbreviated reactions.

Stu: Thanks for the thread. You don't know it all about jazz, but you don't claim to either.

Duke: You're a young guy, but you're smart.

Jazzgregg: You are most likely a cocky, elitist jazz snob, but you know your stuff, and you're a fine musician. Besides, musicians protect jazz. They don't exploit it. Keep up the good work, but chill out a little (lol).

Jeff Hamilton: The truth is in the middle.

Matt: Kid, you got it going on. But I am the least surprised about that.

OZjazzer: In regards to a past disagreement, I have a Wynton analogy for you that will explain what I believe is the correct viewpoint of his disreputable contribution to jazz, and the negative reaction of some posters (me included)...presented in language you will appreciate.

Wynton + creativity = WFD

Although I remain fine with WFD, I know how you feel (lol). Still, you have consistently demonstrated a love for jazz, and anyone who is of this disposition is OK in my book. Regarding these other issues. I am sure we can agree to disagree.

Carry on gentlemen. This is great.

OZjazzer

03-24-2006, 03:11 AM

OZjazzer: In regards to a past disagreement, I have a Wynton analogy for you that will explain what I believe is the correct viewpoint of his disreputable contribution to jazz, and the negative reaction of some posters (me included)...presented in language you will appreciate.

Wynton + creativity = WFD

Although I remain fine with WFD, I know how you feel (lol). Still, you have consistently demonstrated a love for jazz, and anyone who is of this disposition is OK in my book. Regarding these other issues. I am sure we can agree to disagree.

Carry on gentlemen. This is great.

Well done Elvin4ever. Very very funny. Almost the World's Funniest Djoke.
About Marsalis. I am not mad about his version of jazz either but looking in from the outside he appears to have done great things with the whole Lincoln Centre jazz program and the new concert hall etc. and therefore surely jazz has benefited overall.

I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis. The band itself certainly has guts and plenty of fire and excitement. It's not my cup of tea but it is a very good jazz big band.

Hey, the guy in the LC job was never going to make everybody happy - that was always mission impossible. Taking a world view for a the moment, at least America is at last showing a bit of visable pride and support of this wonderful music that is constantly being ignored in high places (and low places too).

Drad-dog

03-24-2006, 05:56 AM

I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis.

Jeff Hamilton? -Just kidding, jazzgregg!

Maybe McCoy Tyner?

Credentials, big band experience, fan base...

Just a thought.

jazzgregg

03-24-2006, 08:43 AM

Wayne Shorter.

Elvin4ever, I'm not really sure I understand the cocky Jazz snob thing. Argumentative and opinionated? I could see that=)

G

Stu_Strib

03-24-2006, 10:00 AM

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 03:54 PM

Ok, I've taken in a lot more from all sides and just want to say this about Wynton.

Why are we not talking about him as a player? I see SOME props from jazzgregg and others, but the negative opinions seem to stem from feelings about HIM, his image, and what he stands for.

I guess in this instance, it is better to not know as much as you guys, as I just really enjoy the music. Perhaps I see the point that he used to be a shredding bop cat, and now he is something awful, but I'm not gonna let any current projects ruin my opinion of the older stuff.

Have any of you guys seen the entire performance at the Apple convention thing? I'm not talking just about the 2 minute iPod commercial, but the entire 50 minute live performance during Steve Jobs Mac expo, or whatever they are called.

And now, I have to continue tracking down all these other dudes you guys keep name droppin' so I can get in on the conversation!

Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is miniscule to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration means nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political and revisionist instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. How would you feel for example if in five years, your friend Duke's music did not receive its just rewards, for no other reason than it was innovative, creative, and produced by someone not aligned with the Marsalis cultural requirements. This is what we are talking about here, and my contentions do not overreact.

The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it remains beneficial to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 04:17 PM

Ok, I've taken in a lot more from all sides and just want to say this about Wynton.

Why are we not talking about him as a player? I see SOME props from jazzgregg and others, but the negative opinions seem to stem from feelings about HIM, his image, and what he stands for.

I guess in this instance, it is better to not know as much as you guys, as I just really enjoy the music. Perhaps I see the point that he used to be a shredding bop cat, and now he is something awful, but I'm not gonna let any current projects ruin my opinion of the older stuff.

Have any of you guys seen the entire performance at the Apple convention thing? I'm not talking just about the 2 minute iPod commercial, but the entire 50 minute live performance during Steve Jobs Mac expo, or whatever they are called.

And now, I have to continue tracking down all these other dudes you guys keep name droppin' so I can get in on the conversation!

Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is too small to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration mean nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it is good to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 04:29 PM

I'm interested in hearing who else could have done it as well as Marsalis.

Anyone of fair and equitable mind, with creativity and innovative spirit, capable of formulating his own opinions, while leaving the door open for flexible outcomes.

In arts administration obsessed countries like the United States, such people number in the thousands.

I would appreciate it if someone could eliminate my 10:17 am duplicate post. Sorry about that.

Drad-dog

03-24-2006, 04:41 PM

Wynton can definitely play. If not, he wouldn't have impressed Art Blakey. But it's what he chooses to play that I don't like. Being able to play like the masters that came before him takes a lot of talent. It does not take any kind of artistic vision.

But I'll admit to being turned off by his personality too. It's not just his music that bothers me.

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 05:09 PM

jazzgregg

03-24-2006, 05:11 PM

Stu, jazzgregg is correct. We have been talking about him him as a player. Jazz performance=innovation (the primary job of any so called jazz ambassador). This has never occured with the aforementioned Mr. Marsalis, even in his early days. You seem to be speaking of his ability to emit jazz like sounds from a trumpet. If you want that, let me point you to other trumpeters like Jon Faddis, Vincent DeMartino, or even Doc Severinson in his prime. All of these musicians are better trumpet players.

Moreover, in the minds of a good number, the negative Marsalis influence and its subsequent effect on the free distribution of employment from within jazz has been so pervasive, that it is often difficult to seperate the two in such a way as to ever see him as anything other than not good.

IMO, its like this. The jazz market is miniscule to begin with. At present Marsalis personally has his hands in something close to 40% of the combined income trail representative of my profession. In other words, he is the Bill Gates of jazz, except that his product influences few in our profession but himself, and his contribution towards the greater good is questionable at best. This is why things like the iPod demonstration means nothing to me from a musical standpoint, while incensing me from a business one. While Marsalis dishes out yet another retread, a hundred other more innovative, and creative musicians go without employment and will be unheard. Again, because of the miniscule jazz market this not like other musical genres where the plate is far larger.

From the enjoyment standpoint, again jazzgregg is correct. If I want to hear music like that, I will listen to the Charles Mingus recordings he directly stole it from. They're better played anyway.

IMO, jazz is being held hostage by a one dimensional, bigoted, under educated product of media hype, in way in over his head. This is why he has aligned himself with more intelligent, and unfortuantely far more hateful intellects like commentator Stanley Crouch, whose own agendas are political and revisionist instead of musical, in that they attempt to rewrite the entire history of jazz to suit personal hate induced agendas that Marsalis himself is not even capable of understanding. In other words these other guys coach him. Unfortunately, Marsalis is now their intellectual puppet, and they pull his strings when it suits them.

Therefore Stu, for many of us, it is difficult not to see the Marsalis phenomenon as anything other than a battle of good vs. evil. In my estimation, we're in a war. Marsalis stifles my music and takes money out of my pocket...pure and simple. He does the same to jazzgregg and one day he will try to do it to Matt Smith. How would you feel for example if in five years, your friend Duke's music did not receive its just rewards, for no other reason than it was innovative, creative, and produced by someone not aligned with the Marsalis cultural requirements. This is what we are talking about here, and my contentions do not overreact.

The open market in my profession is currently nonexistent, and the rules are made up on a whim. In my 30 plus years in the music industry, I have never witnessed anything like it.

I believe these things with every fiber in my being. This is why loyal soldiers like jazzgregg come off as leathery as they do (BTW I'm proud of his stance). He's tired of fighting and explaining. But he continues to do so nonetheless, because it remains beneficial to explain the other side to good guys like yourself.

E4E, I couldn't have said it better, even though I kept trying to=) Thanks for the props and the explanation.

G

mattsmith

03-24-2006, 05:22 PM

I know he's kind of like a person I know and all, but sometimes I think elvin4ever is the best poster on this forum. Man, can you believe how the words just flow like that. Man, somebody must have got him going today. You should see his post about opinions on the "watch this" thread where he talks about Derek Roddy and opinions. He must have the day off or something (lol).

Loge

03-24-2006, 08:33 PM

This thread is by far one of the best discussions I've seen to date on these forums. Kudos to all the contributors.

I would be interested to hear opinions regarding the documentary, "Jazz" by Ken Burns that aired several years ago on public television. I've always enjoyed Burn's work, particularly "Baseball" and feel he truly revitalised the documentary form. He certainly has his critics, also, and is often accused (at times unfairly IMO) for a lopsided historical view, particularly in his "Civil War" which met with some negativity here in the South. I quite enjoyed "Jazz" and it certainly raised my awareness of many great players and their respective contributions and achievments. Since W. Marsalis is the major voice in the series (but there are many commentators including, unfortunately, the acidic Mr. Crouch) I'm interested in knowing what folks think of the historical validity of the film(s). Apart from his playing, public persona and the like, how does Wynton stand as a historian?

EDIT: I should have re-read Matt Smith's post # 71

A side note. A really great guitarist (and friend) I played with for a quite awhile,attended Berklee for a couple of years in the '80's'. It was around the same time that Delfeo Marsalis enrolled as a student and my friend has often talked about how a division and subsequent polarization of the student body appeared not long after he [Marsalis] arrived. It made for a hostile learning environment as the various factions squared off and the question of 'validity' began to come to the front. Sort of the 'Delfeo' guys vs. all the 'other misguided idiots'.
My friend withdrew in disgust and returned to Georgia. If nothing else, those Marsalis boys can sure stir things up for the good or ill.

jordanz

03-24-2006, 09:19 PM

I would be interested to hear opinions regarding the documentary, "Jazz" by Ken Burns that aired several years ago on public television
My problem with it is Burns' reliance on Wynton Marsalis. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find Marsalis pompous and annoying. In particular, he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz". He talks as if he was there and has first hand knowledge of the roots of jazz. Rememeber, he is in his mid-forties (currently). His opinions on music don't resonate with me.

Drad-dog

03-24-2006, 09:59 PM

...pompous and annoying... he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz".

Exactly!

20 characters

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 10:26 PM

My problem with it is Burns' reliance on Wynton Marsalis. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find Marsalis pompous and annoying. In particular, he likes to talk like he's an "old man of jazz". He talks as if he was there and has first hand knowledge of the roots of jazz. Rememeber, he is in his mid-forties (currently). His opinions on music don't resonate with me.
This is much of it certainly, except that I would go one step further in stating that most of the purist leanings and veiled racist pontifications are actually those of Crouch and the poet Albert Murray, who for all practical purposes are Wynton's string pullers. But Wynton is silly enough to believe that he derives these opinions from his own mind, which makes him even more harmful as an historical reference.

As for the historical accuarcy, I agree with Matt's dad, who feels Wynton is an absolute imposter as an historian, which is unfortunate, since said production is now the primary visual tool for jazz appreciation courses throughout the world. Even I use parts of it because the photographs and musical excerpts are so beautiful and visually striking. But when Wynton comes on, I hit the mute button and provide my own dialogue.

Politically speaking, Burns was hoodwinked on this one. In possession of at least a cursory knowledge of both the civil war and baseball, Burns admitted that he had owned only a couple of jazz records before filming this documentary. Therefore his embrace of the Marsalis tact was far more gullible than it should have been. This also explains the harmful revisionist history that he would have easily filtered in his civil war documentary.

Righteous jazz historians will correctly state (quite fairly) that jazz music is primarily a 90% plus African American creation, thus coinciding with an equal proportion of innovators. The Marsalis camp would have you believe that number to be 100%, and that anyone other than African American participants are racist interlopers, although he will employ a small number in his big band as reverse tokens of sorts. In other words, Gregg, Matt Smith and myself disgrace jazz by our very participation. This is of course an utter sham, and bears no relationship to fact. FYI, Marsalis actually fired a number of musicians from the LCJO when he arrived. All of them possessed racial lineage other than African American. This action alone speaks volumes, and in my personal estimation makes Americans look like the socially backwards imbeciles we claim we are not.

By employing such a spiteful tact, Marsalis and his cronies deemphasize and undervalue the momentous strides in race relations experienced by a quite farsighted jazz community, sometimes decades before the American Civil Rights Movement. In other words, jazz helped teach other Americans that integration and diversity was not only possible, but the right thing to do. In the Marsalis view of the universe, none of this ever happened. How unfortunate...Imagine the positive societal lessons that would be revealed if the actual truth were known.

Moreover, the documentary forcibly assaults the fusion era of jazz as an evil force of idiocy, propogated by a misguided Miles Davis, a man who Wynton has stolen directly from more than any other musician. By doing so, jazz officially dies around 1970, making it necessary for help to arrive in the guise of righteous savior...a man who would return things to their rightful place, so all would again be right with the world.

Enter Saint Wynton...

The subsequent hypocritical tone and total absence of any European, Australian or Asian contribution unveils the documentary for what it truly is...a visually beautiful, politically manipulative demonstration of revisionist history on the highest possible level.

Finally...not many drummers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now ask me what I really think.

jordanz

03-24-2006, 10:31 PM

great essay

Nicely put. I actually sheepisly avoided the word "racist" but I'm glad you didn't.

As an aside, I heard the Lincoln Center Jazz thing on the radio and I thought I was listening to an archival record from the 30s and 40s.

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 10:42 PM

Nicely put. I actually sheepisly avoided the word "racist" but I'm glad you didn't.

As an aside, I heard the Lincoln Center Jazz thing on the radio and I thought I was listening to an archival record from the 30s and 40s.
There is nothing wrong with repertory music, as long as it is not the only new kind of jazz I am allowed to listen to.

finnhiggins

03-24-2006, 11:06 PM

The subsequent hypocritical tone and total absence of any European contribution unveils the documentary for what it truly is...a visually beautiful, politically manipulative demonstration of revisionist history on the highest possible level.

The absence of Europe is probably at least partially Burns' fault rather than Wynton. After all, his whole conception for the civil war/baseball/jazz series was that they are cornerstones of American culture and his major interest in them is from that perspective. It seems a bit blinkered to me given the international nature of jazz throughout its history - America might have been the melting pot, but it has never taken long for a foreign style to be both adopted back into jazz and then have the jazz re-adopted back into original style internationally.

I wasn't overly keen on the Burns doco though. As you said, some of the footage is great. But the talking heads irritated me.

OZjazzer

03-24-2006, 11:38 PM

This is weird, I find myself trying to present the other side of an argument about a person I don't particularly like, personally or musically. I saw the Wynton Marsalis group in concert about 5 years ago and came away with that hollow feeling that even though everything was in place technically, his performance was somehow superficial and unsatisfying. His recorded stuff has the same effect. I have to say that Branford leaves me even colder, but their dad Ellis is just one superb piano player. Maybe it was mum's fault.

Having said all that, we live in a real world commercially, and yes that includes the arts. As the popular face of jazz Wynton Marsalis is head and shoulders above above anybody I can think of.

Just for a minute forget about the art of jazz and think about jazz as a product to be promoted. Can't bear to think about it like that then turn the page. It would take about a millisecond to arrive at the name Wynton Marsalis as the obvious choice. Why?

He is young, well educated, good looking and black.

He can talk easily to an audience or a camera.

He plays trumpet which along with the tenor is symbolic of jazz to many non jazz people.

He straddles jazz and classical music which gives him a huge amount of credibility.

Technically his playing is brilliant - there's no debate on that.

He comes from a family with a huge jazz background.

He played for some time with one of jazz's most famous groups, Blakey's Jazz Messengers.

He leads his own groups and his name sells a lot of CD's.

Commercially it's game set and match. Sure you can resent him and carry on about the unfairness of it all but frankly it could have been worse.

As for the iPod ad - personally I have had many non-jazz people react very favourably to it - anything that half opens a door to liking jazz is OK by me. Face it, the 'innovators' rarely attract first timers into jazz. The reality is that for jazz to survive it needs 'popular' players to widen the jazz audience.

Elvin4ever

03-24-2006, 11:53 PM

Commercially it's game set and match. Sure you can resent him and carry on about the unfairness of it all but frankly it could have been worse.

Name one single person who could have been worse, in respect to the very superficial credibility of him you provided in your post.

I agree...innovators are seldom very appealing to first timers. But this is the first time they were ever blocked access to the front door.

OZjazzer

03-25-2006, 12:28 AM

Name one single person who could have been worse, in respect to the very superficial credibility of him you provided in your post.

I agree...innovators are seldom very appealing to first timers. But this is the first time they were ever blocked access to the front door.

Hey give me a break. I was simply trying to state the obvious about how marketing works in the real world, that's why Wynton will continue to be the highest profile 'jazz' player on the planet for some time. I don't like it - you don't like it but it's a fact.

Worse? Dave Weckl? Chris Botti. Seriously I can't think of one at the minute and anyway nobody provided a better option other than Wayne Shorter when I asked earlier.

OZjazzer

03-25-2006, 12:46 AM

Ken Burns 'Jazz' series. God I really hope this isn't being used in teaching establishments. Were there any white musicians mentioned, except in passing? Bill Evans, Woody Herman, Mulligan, Kenton, Artie Shaw, Goodman, Bix, Getz, Desmond, Zoot, Stan Levey, Dave Tough, Krupa, Shearing etc etc. Guys like these fundementaly changed the sound of jazz right from the start. The white bands of the swing era were almost totally ignored. Total, dangerous crap the whole thing.

Loge

03-25-2006, 01:36 AM

Politically speaking, Burns was hoodwinked on this one. In possession of at least a cursory knowledge of both the civil war and baseball, Burns admitted that he had owned only a couple of jazz records before filming this documentary. Therefore his embrace of the Marsalis tact was far more gullible than it should have been. This also explains the harmful revisionist history that he would have easily filtered in his civil war documentary.

By employing such a spiteful tact, Marsalis and his cronies deemphasize and undervalue the momentous strides in race relations experienced by a quite farsighted jazz community, sometimes decades before the American Civil Rights Movement. In other words, jazz helped teach other Americans that integration and diversity was not only possible, but the right thing to do. In the Marsalis view of the universe, none of this ever happened. How unfortunate...Imagine the positive societal lessons that would be revealed if the actual truth were known.

Having viewed the entire series a number of times, I feel that Burns addressed the idea of jazz as a unifying and democratizing force quite well. From his own statements of intent, the question of race is the underlying factor of major consideration in all three films of his "American Trilogy". Therefore, the series is as much a social history as it is a musical one (although I thought the musical aspects were superb). In an interview,
http://www.pbs.org/jazz/about/about_behind_the_scenes2.htm he states:

"There was something about jazz that reminded me of something bigger and larger, more than myself, more than who we are. Jazz was the Holy Ghost. You thought you were in the presence of something that could transcend the mundane and the ordinary of our lives and really point in the direction of harmony, not just between people and races and sexes, but between just the normal stuff of everyday life."

In all fairness, I recall some of Marsalis's commentary on some non-African American musicians to be completely positive. He all but gushes over Bix Beiderbecke and there are other positive references to figures such as Jack Teagarden, Benny Goodman et al. Many times in the series it's mentioned how so many musicians of both races dreamed of performing together in public - an impossibility for many years. The afterhours jam sessions had to suffice. And the story involving Goodman's stance with Lionel Hampton in breaking that public taboo is indeed a triumph.

I just feel that the film as a whole is much more balanced than is being stated and, in the least, serves as a decent introduction to many great players hitherto unknown to the public at large. Burns clearly states that he wasn't making it for jazz critics.
All history is revisionist to some degree - similar to the fact that one's own personal memories of events are not experience itself and are colored by time. Personally, I felt that his "Civil War" was entirely more revisionist in nature with little "filtering", but I gladly admit to this being somewhat reflective of my native Southern American heritage and bias. In many cases it's simply relative - what the view becomes from where an individual finds himself standing.

As far as the absence of European factors, Finn is correct in stating that the subject of the series is American Jazz- part of a group of works concerning the American experience. I'd love to see a film of this scope about the European scene as well.

One of the great things I came away with: the discovery of the performance of Ellington at Newport in '56. The marathon performance of sax man Paul Gonsalves (yet another non-African American) is a true gem as is the entire recording.

True, unfortunately,......... not enough drummers!

theduke86

03-25-2006, 01:37 AM

Oh, don't get me started on Burns' Jazz doctumentary. I've tried to keep from putting a diss on Wynton because I think that's not right for me to do- I'm a young guy who's still trying to develop chops while he's a far superior musician. I love some of the stuff he plays-he's a great horn player.
The first instance I realised I truly disliked Wynton Marsalis was in Ken Burns' film. I remember him talking about the roots of Jazz, and the old great trumpet player Buddy Bolden. Wynton began talking about Buddy's powerful sound, use of plunger mutes, etc etc. Then, I realised that no one living has heard Buddy Bolden. No recordings of Buddy Bolden exist, and no one that lived during his era is still alive. Therefore, isn't Wynton kind of talking out of his you know what? It's impossible to make definitive opinions you haven't got any sort of objective evidence to back them up. Wynton's word is gospel to him- he's the hip jazz cat of the 1980's onward. He's telling everyone's what's cool, what's not cool, what's hip, what's square. It's kind of a collective mentality- as much as I defended trying to sound like your idols earlier in the thread (BTW Gregg I think you'd get mad at me because I rip off Billy Stewart like no one's buisness) but this is something different. It's commercial exploitation that is keeping the rest of the jazz world in the dark, because sometimes we're not the "hip cats". How many records did Chris Potter's latest sell? Or Avishai Cohen's? Both those cats have extremely modern and progressive bands that are awesome- I've seen them both in the last year and they make me think that THIS is what jazz is all about. Not this watered down bebop crap that Wynton plays. However, they didn't sell nearly as much as Wynton's latest did, I guarantee you that. It's a shame- the music is better and it's new, and innovative! I love it! I have to add, I saw the Lincoln Center jazz orchestra last year, and I was impressed. I enjoyed the show. Even the "Love Supreme". However I enjoyed Branford's reissue much better.
Wynton Marsalis is just... he's not the type of guy I'd have publicly leading jazz into the new millenium. Jazz is about innovation- paying tribute to the masters in your playing is something that you'll always do, but there is a difference between playing a Charlie Parker lick at a club and what Wyn's doing.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 01:38 AM

Hey give me a break. I was simply trying to state the obvious about how marketing works in the real world, that's why Wynton will continue to be the highest profile 'jazz' player on the planet for some time. I don't like it - you don't like it but it's a fact.

Worse? Dave Weckl? Chris Botti. Seriously I can't think of one at the minute and anyway nobody provided a better option other than Wayne Shorter when I asked earlier.

Sorry OJ, I didn't mean to lazer you. However, none of the group you listed as worse could have remotely caused the damage Marsalis caused, because none would have been afforded the credibility afforded Marsalis to rewrite history. I am not certain that people understand how textbooks and teaching styles have literally been transformed since the initial broadcast of Jazz five years ago. And yes, it is the singular flagship jazz history presentation in American education.

Why do you think some of us are so up in arms about it? If Chris Botti had been the principle talking head, I would not have to deal with its historical distortions in my class rooms now, because no one would give its contents a second glance, even if said contents had been identical.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 02:27 AM

In all fairness, I recall some of Marsalis's commentary on some non-African American musicians to be completely positive. He all but gushes over Bix Beiderbecke and there are other positive references to figures such as Jack Teagarden, Benny Goodman et al.

Burns clearly states that he wasn't making it for jazz critics.
!

Loge, I think you are a person who tries to be fair and equitable. But I cannot go along with you on much of this.

Beiderbecke is always one of the two deferred...the token(s) if you will. And although Wynton suggests favoritism of Beiderbecke, there are a number of veiled references denoting mundane impressions from the other talking heads that appear within seconds of the Beiderbecke pontifications. Remember the actual disdain one of the female presenters demonstrated when she mentioned Beiderbecke's association with Paul Whiteman?...allowing Whiteman's name to roll off her tongue in enlongated consternation. I remember these passages vividly. This is what I do for a living.

Of greater interest to me is how in over ten years of Marsalis participation at Lincoln Center, not a single Beiderbecke work has ever been performed...not a one. If this is gushing you can have it.

Teagarden, one of the ten or so most important jazz musicians of all time is mentioned twice...once for the narrarator to state that Louie Armstrong influenced him, and another time to describe how Armstrong once turned down a gig because he would not allow his trombonist Teagarden to be snubbed in an unpleasant segregated incident. Never once is Teagarden even heard or described as a performer.

Yes, Goodman is the other unavoidable, and a fair amount is afforded him for obvious reasons, with the largest share being given to the integration of the Goodman band. Yes, you are right about this one incident. Still, in the subsequent episode, an equal amount of time is granted Goodman's defeat by the Chick Webb Band in a carving session at the Savoy Ballroom...a relatively miniscule event in the annals of jazz history, with direct references being made as to how Goodman could never have won such a battle, since Savoy bands were capable of playing Fletcher Henderson arrangements better, because they understood them better, and because Benny Goodman had for all practical purposes stolen the music, when he enlisted Henderson to provide him (the films words) a Harlem book.

Such racist utterings are the equivalent of saying that Jewish people make better merchants and African Americans are born to play basketball. They are wrong in any setting, irregardless of spokesperson. if you don't believe the stereotypical minutia, just listen to the 20 plus Stanley Crouch impersonations of how he thinks white people talk and sing. It's unbelievable.

And of course there are good parts. I agree the Ellingtonia is first rate. But we're talking over nine hours here. How could there not be some goodness and light?

You are also right that Burns never intended Jazz for critics. No, his revisionists were much too smart to care about the howlings of critics. Instead Jazz is packaged carefully as an educational presentation for use in schools. You can even get lesson plans if you ask for them. No, Crouch/Murray/Marsalis understood full well where the legacy was, and it is a ball they have run with again and again.

mattsmith

03-25-2006, 02:57 AM

Loge, I think you are a person who tries to be fair and equitable. But I cannot go along with you on much of this.

Beiderbecke is always one of the two deferred...the token(s) if you will. And although Wynton suggests favoritism of Beiderbecke, there are a number of veiled references denoting mundane impressions from the other talking heads that appear within seconds of the Beiderbecke pontifications. Remember the actual disdain one of the female presenters demonstrated when she mentioned Beiderbecke's association with Paul Whiteman?...allowing Whiteman's name to roll off her tongue in enlongated consternation. I remember these passages vividly. This is what I do for a living.

Of greater interest to me is how in over ten years of Marsalis participation at Lincoln Center, not a single Beiderbecke work has ever been performed...not a one. If this is gushing you can have it.

Teagarden, one of the ten or so most important jazz musicians of all time is mentioned twice...once for the narrarator to state that Louie Armstrong influenced him, and another time to describe how Armstrong once turned down a gig because he would not allow his trombonist Teagarden to be snubbed in an unpleasant segregated incident. Never once is Teagarden even heard or described as a performer.

Yes, Goodman is the other unavoidable, and a fair amount is afforded him for obvious reasons, with the largest share being given to the integration of the Goodman band. Yes, you are right about this one incident. Still, in the subsequent episode, an equal amount of time is granted Goodman's defeat by the Chick Webb Band in a carving session at the Savoy Ballroom...a relatively miniscule event in the annals of jazz history, with direct references being made as to how Goodman could never have won such a battle, since Savoy bands were capable of playing Fletcher Henderson arrangements better, because they understood them better, and because Benny Goodman had for all practical purposes stolen the music, when he enlisted Henderson to provide him (the films words) a Harlem book.

Such racist utterings are the equivalent of saying that Jewish people make better merchants and African Americans are born to play basketball. They are wrong in any setting, irregardless of spokesperson. if you don't believe the stereotypical minutia, just listen to the 20 plus Stanley Crouch impersonations of how he thinks white people talk and sing. It's unbelievable.

And of course there are good parts. I agree the Ellingtonia is first rate. But we're talking over nine hours here. How could there not be some goodness and light?

You are also right that Burns never intended Jazz for critics. No, his revisionists were much too smart to care about the howlings of critics. Instead Jazz is packaged carefully as an educational presentation for use in schools. You can even get lesson plans if you ask for them. No, Crouch/Murray/Marsalis understood full well where the legacy was, and it is a ball they have run with again and again.
Hey Elvin, my dad just wanted you to know that Marsalis is much worse than your tellin' it.(Lol)

But he still says that the father Ellis is a nice guy who probably doesn't know why his kids are insane.

You know its great seeing a great jazz thread with all the posts and the hits. This could only happen around here.

OZjazzer

03-25-2006, 03:33 AM

IT 'BURNS' ME UP! Guys and what about Woody Herman? He fronted one of the greatest jazz big bands for over 40 years!! He had some of the greatest players and soloists in the history of jazz and as I recall he was hardly mentioned (although I was so upset by the other notable omissions I may have missed it). How can you ignore a band that included the likes of Getz, Cohn, Zoot Sims, trombone players from Bill Harris to Phil Wilson, Carl Fontana and beyond and drummers galore, Dave Tough, Sonny Igoe, Jake hanna, Don Lamond? Didn't he bother to read any of the histories of jazz that already existed? It's no secret, it's all been very well documented. What about the jazz guitar players? I seem to remember Wynton sliding past the instrument because it was amplified (and therefore not pure enough I guess).

Burns said he had 2 jazz CD's in his collection when he sarted this project, frankly I'm surprised he he that many.The whole thing was an overproduced, badly researched piece of garbage! If American kids are still having this served up to them as the real deal, god help jazz.

Loge

03-25-2006, 05:18 AM

Loge, I think you are a person who tries to be fair and equitable. But I cannot go along with you on much of this.

Thanks for the thoughtful (and thorough) reply, Elvin. Many interesting points to ponder and I will certainly view the film again in the future with greater awareness of the issues discussed. I truly respect your views as a professional scholar in the field.

That said, I feel that one valid aspect the film explores is the idea of intensification of creative force through adversity. In the history of European symphonic music this is seen over and over again. For example, the music of Richard Wagner came to prominence as the direct result of a reaction against the stale and smothering musical conservatism of the world of his youth. He struggled for years to have a hearing. Hard for many to believe today, but he was squarely a figure of the avant garde at that time. In time his influence came to virtually dominate the whole of Western culture not just in music, but also literature and the visual arts, continuing for decades even after his death. His followers and supporters exhibited what is tantamount to a religious zeal in their efforts to carry his art and ideas around the globe. Inevitably in the course of time he, himself, became the object of scorn by the younger generations of composers that saw the Wagnerian model as static and utterly conservative -dead - a relic for the museum. Hence the story of music in the the early 20th century is in large part the result of the reaction against what was once the "forward moving musical innovation". Debussy is perhaps the most obvious example and man, did he have a hell of a time being heard, let alone understood to any degree.

I guess my point is that music evolves (or has) in a somewhat organic process and often the most remarkable growth takes place in an atmosphere of tension and controversy. The world takes a long time to catch up with guys like yourselves who are on the creative forefront and unfortunately many do not get to taste the fruits of their strivings in their own time. It's very much like the nature of basic research in the sciences.

I truly am sympathetic to the plight of so many fine practioners - especially in regards to the economic factors that can threaten a livelihood or risk a compromise of root values. A poor but ever so common condition. But in the end I think jazz is bigger than the Wyntons, the Crouches or any other "authority" and Music is bigger than jazz. She cannot be bound for long.

jazzgregg

03-25-2006, 05:43 AM

I think E4E sums up my feelings about it too, though I (no surprise) get quite irate. I was at music school when it was airing and the Modays after the Sunday night airings were very entertaining. It was a real feeling of rebellion and anger, all the way up to the teachers.
So, instead of getting burned up repeating what E4E said, how about this:

Presenting Ken Burns' 144-hour, Extremely Important documentary: "Jazz."

Fade up on a grainy old photograph of a man in a three-piece suit,
holding a cornet. Or a bicycle horn, it's hard to tell.

Narrator: Skunkbucket LeFunke was born in 1876 and died in 1901. No one who
heard him is alive today. The grandchildren of the people who heard him are
not alive today. The great-grandchildren of the people who heard him are
not alive today. He was never recorded.

Wynton Marsalis: I'll tell you what Skunkbucket LeFunke sounded like. He had
this big rippling sound, and he always phrased off the beat, and he slurred
his notes. And when the Creole bands were still playing De-bah-de-bah-ta-
da-tah, he was already playing Bo-dap-da-lete-do-do-do-bah! He was just
like gumbo, ahead of his time.

Narrator: LeFunke was a cornet player, gambler, card shark, pool hustler,
pimp, male prostitute, Kelly Girl, computer programmer, brain surgeon and he
invented the internet.

Stanley Crouch: When people listened to Skunkbucket LeFunke, they heard
Do-do-dee-bwap-da-dee-dee-de-da-da-doop-doop-dap. And they knew even then
how deeply profound that was.

Narrator: It didn't take LeFunke long to advance the art of jazz past its
humble beginnings in New Orleans whoredom with the addition of a bold and
sassy beat.

Wynton: Let me tell you about the Big Four. Before the Big Four, jazz
drumming sounded like BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick. But now they had
the Big Four, which was so powerful some said it felt like a Six. A few
visiting musicians even swore they were in an Eight.

Stanley: It was smooth and responsive, and there was no knocking and
pinging, even on 87 octane.

Wynton: Even on gumbo.

Narrator: When any musician in the world heard Louis Armstrong for the first
time, they gnawed their arm off with envy, then said the angels probably
wanted to sound like Louis. When you consider a bunch of angels talking in
gruff voices and singing "Hello Dolly," you realize what a stupid aspiration
that is.

Gary Giddy: Louis changed jazz because he was the only cat going
Do-da-dep-do-wah-be-be, while everyone else was doing Do-de-dap-dit-dit-dee.

Stanley: And that was very profound.

Wynton: It was like gumbo, man!

Stanley: Uh-huh.

Matt Glaser: I always have this fantasy that when Louis performed in
Belgium, Heisenberg was in the audience and he was blown away and that's
where he got the idea for his Uncertainty Principle.

Wynton: Because the Uncertainty Principle, applied to jazz, means you never
know if a cat is going to go Dap-da-de-do-ba-ta-bah or Dap-da-de-do-
bip-de-beep.

Stanley: Louis was the first one to realize that.

Phil Schaap: That came to him in a New Orleans gumbo joint, January 27,
1916. Pops was like Bird--they both had an uncanny sense of what was right
and what had never been done before. Like Krupa, when he woke up the
Goodman band, Pops woke up the blues.

Albert Murray: The blues was called stomps--they stomped the blues. It
wasn't do-be-do-be-dahhhht, because they knew it had to be definitive, so
they added a dooo-whee tag.

Wynton: And that can be very profound.

Stanley: It is--like a box of chocolates...

Narrator: The Savoy Ballroom brought people of all races colors and
political persuasions together to get sweaty as Europe moved closer and
closer to the brink of World War II. Meanwhile, somewhere in the South, a
train made it's way along the bayou.

Cut to shot of vintage train moving through the Southern night.

Savoy Dancer: We didn't care what color you were at the Savoy. We only
cared if you were wearing deodorant.

Narrator: Perhaps Ralph Ellison said it best..

Stanley: I think he did.

Glaser: I like to think that Arthur Murray was on the dance floor and he was
thinking about Louis and that's where he got the idea to open a bunch of
dance schools.

Stanley: And that was very profound.

Giddy: Let's talk about Louis some more. We've wasted three minutes of this
57-part documentary not talking about Louis.

Wynton: He was an angel, a genius, much better than Cats.

Stanley: He invented the word "Cats."

Wynton: He invented swing, he invented jazz, he invented the telephone, the
automobile and the polio vaccine. You can almost hear it when he does "Hobo,
You Can't Ride That Train."

Cut to shot of hobos clinging to a vintage box car in motion.

Stanley: It was about communication--moving from state to state like moving
from note to note. Louis did that like nobody else. He was king, and the
rest of them were hobos.

Wynton: Very profound and objectified.

Narrator: Louis Armstrong turned commercial in the 1930s and didn't make any
more breakthrough contributions to jazz. But it's not politically correct
to point that out, so we'll be showing him in every segment of this series
to come, even if he's just doing the same things as the last time you saw
him.

Glaser: I'll bet Chuck Yeager was in the audience when Louis was hitting
those high Cs at the Earle Theater in Philadelphia, and that's what made him
decide to break the sound barrier.

Cut to shot of Yeager's plane breaking the sound barrier.

Wynton: Yeager was there, but Louis didn't see him (raises eyebrows and
throws left and right glances). Louis was like Duke, he could tell when a
pretty woman's interest went beyond music. It didn't matter if he was
climbing to that high C or reaching for a new handkerchief--if a pretty
woman sent a signal, Louis got it. You might not think so to look
at him, but he got it, and sometimes it made his high Cs even higher.

Stanley: And from there to Pluto.

Wynton: What a gumbo, I'm telling you.

Stanley: BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick-BOOM-chick

Giddy: Do-yap-do-wee-bah-scoot-scoot-dap-dap...That's what all the cats were
saying back then. It was like a train moving over mathematically precise
tracks.

Cut to shot of vintage train. Cross fade to long stretch of railroad tracks.

Narrator: In 1964, John Coltrane was at his peak, Eric Dolphy was in Europe,
where he would eventually die, the Modern Jazz Quartet was making
breakthrough recordings in the field of Third Stream Music, Miles Davis was
breaking new barrier with his second great quintet, and Charlie Mingus was
extending jazz composition to new levels of complexity. But we're going to
talk about Louis singing "Hello Dolly" instead.

Stanley: Louis went, Ba-ba-yaba-do-do-dee-da-bebin-doo-wap-deet-deet
-do-da-da.

Wynton: Sweets went, Scoop-doop-shalaba-yaba andmokey-hokey-bwap-bwap
with a tee-tee-dee-sha-boom! tag.

Giddy: I go, Da-da-shoobie-doobie-det-det-det-bap-bap-baaaaa...

Cut to shot of Amtrak train, (before its time, circa 1960).

Narrator: The jazz train finally pulled into the station as Castro
nationalized American property in Cuba and American Negroes celebrated
victories at the Rome Olympics.

Cut to montage of a determined Castro, waving his hands in the air/Wilma
Rudolph running in Rome/ New York skyscrapers, and another Amtrak train
pulling into Pennsylvania Station.

Narrator: Disembarking in New York from the New Orleans express, a young man
looked around and said to himself: "I am going to conquer the music scene."
He did more than that--young Wynton Marsalis swept through the remnants of a
New York jazz scene like a fresh breeze from the South. Jazz was not dead,
it had just come to a temporary rest.

Cut to photo sequence of Wynton Marsalis, starting with baby pictures and
moving forward in time, ending with a cross-fade to clip showing Wynton on
stage, playing a fragment of his composition "Big Train." Fade music under
and cut to a big train moving out of a station.

Narrator: Wynton Marsalis took jazz back to its roots, liberated it from its
swing and gave it a new rigid sound with a wealth of growls.

Stanley: It was the Pied Piper all over again. Beautiful! When Wynton's horn
went Didley-dah-squeeky-roo, man, gumbo became a New York dish.

We fast forward to Lincoln Center with Wynton on stage.

Narrator: The cradle of jazz found a permanent home, at last, and Wynton
was chosen to rock it.

Now here are some scenes from Ken Burns' next documentary, a 97-part epic
about the Empire State Building, titled "Ken Burns' Empire State Building."

"It is tall and majestic. It is America's building. It is the Empire State
Building. Dozens of workers gave their lives in the construction of this
building."

Matt Glaser: I'll bet that they were thinking of Louis as they were falling
to their deaths. I have this fantasy that his high notes inspired the
immensity of the Empire State Building.

Wynton Marsalis: I'll bet most people who'd fall off the Empire State
Building would go Aaaaaahhhh! But these cats went Dee-dee-daba-da-da-bop
then whooo-weee and bop-de-dop-shewap-splat!

That's next time on PBS.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 05:59 AM

Presenting Ken Burns' 144-hour, Extremely Important documentary: "Jazz."
That skit remains funny even five years later, haha. Thanks for reminding.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 06:45 AM

That said, I feel that one valid aspect the film explores is the idea of intensification of creative force through adversity. In the history of European symphonic music this is seen over and over again. For example, the music of Richard Wagner came to prominence as the direct result of a reaction against the stale and smothering musical conservatism of the world of his youth. He struggled for years to have a hearing. Hard for many to believe today, but he was squarely a figure of the avant garde at that time. In time his influence came to virtually dominate the whole of Western culture not just in music, but also literature and the visual arts, continuing for decades even after his death. His followers and supporters exhibited what is tantamount to a religious zeal in their efforts to carry his art and ideas around the globe. Inevitably in the course of time he, himself, became the object of scorn by the younger generations of composers that saw the Wagnerian model as static and utterly conservative -dead - a relic for the museum. Hence the story of music in the the early 20th century is in large part the result of the reaction against what was once the "forward moving musical innovation". Debussy is perhaps the most obvious example and man, did he have a hell of a time being heard, let alone understood to any degree.

I guess my point is that music evolves (or has) in a somewhat organic process and often the most remarkable growth takes place in an atmosphere of tension and controversy. The world takes a long time to catch up with guys like yourselves who are on the creative forefront and unfortunately many do not get to taste the fruits of their strivings in their own time. It's very much like the nature of basic research in the sciences.

Loge, ironically Wagner applies here, but not in the way you probably believe.
Wagner was a callous meglomaniac, who actually had a number of resources at his disposal. His creative youth was rich with the exciting developments of a post Beethoven evolution, that would bring to bear a creativity of immense proportions with the help of a great many influential people...Franz Liszt for one, who he promptly repaid by stealing the older man's instruments and marrying his daughter against his wishes. The French composer Berlioz supported him in a similar manner, until Wagner saw no further use for his help and undercut him at every time, in an attempt to draw more attention to himself at the expense of his former friend.

When Wagner ran up too many debts, he staged insurrection (to the point of purchasing weapons and gathering private militia) for no other reason than to avoid the responsibilities of his actions. Moreover, he became obsessed with his place in history, to the point of caring about nothing but himself. When he felt that his legacy was not fulfilled quickly enough, he concocted a scenario that blamed the Jewish people for his so called troubles, which helped influence future acts far too dark to be described in a drummerworld thread.

In actuality, the Impressionist era propogated by Debussy and others was more a reaction to the knowledge that the old SOB was finally gone. French intellectuals, reeling from the lost innocence of the Franco Prussian War and seeking to avoid the harshness and yes bitterness of the Wagnerian era sought to look inward instead. With less ego present, a greater distribution of the intellectual wealth was easily distributed, and with simultaneous advances in technology, a rebirth of musical consciousness became more readily available for more musicians, as the 20th Century exploded in a cornucopia of diverse artistic awareness.

True Wagner was one of the greatest artistic contributors/innovators of his or any time. Musically speaking, his advances in the use of chromaticism alone almost single handedly changed the face of contemporary music. Unfortunately, his cold heart is what is most remembered...in its embracing of fatalist xenaphobic darkness, that you correctly state influenced all aspects of Western (especially German) culture...albeit very, very negatively.

Now if one removes the creativity and innovation, downplays the callous selfishness a bit, while maintaining the penchant for usury, and eliminates (in fairness) most of the cold blooded hatred, while keeping just enough to be a thorn in everyone's side, then in my estimation you have Wynton Marsalis.

What a fine discussion. I am very proud to be a part of it... such an intelligent and well written dialogue from all parties involved.

OZjazzer

03-25-2006, 07:56 AM

Right on, that Dick Wagner was one hell of a drummer, from memory he played with Louis and Ornette as well, not forgetting his long stints with the New York Philharmonic and Neil Diamond. Sadly he never got over being left out of Ken Burn's film and died trying to paddle across the Atlantic on his Gretsch bass drum.

More importantly his playing inspired the line 'Wagner's music is not as bad as it sounds'.

Stu_Strib

03-25-2006, 08:19 AM

Burns was hoodwinked on this one. In possession of at least a cursory knowledge of both the civil war and baseball, Burns admitted that he had owned only a couple of jazz records before filming this documentary. Therefore his embrace of the Marsalis tact was far more gullible than it should have been. T

Sounds...exactly.....like.............ME!

Ok, now I get it. But I still like "Black Codes from the Underground" a lot! ;-)

Stu_Strib

03-25-2006, 08:35 AM

As for the iPod ad - personally I have had many non-jazz people react very favourably to it - anything that half opens a door to liking jazz is OK by me. Face it, the 'innovators' rarely attract first timers into jazz. The reality is that for jazz to survive it needs 'popular' players to widen the jazz audience.

Somehow, though, I get the feeling that Steve Jobs is a half-hearted jazz fan, and that this ad will garner interest for about 5 minutes. People will go download that one tune and then go back to there Nickelback, Black-Eyed Peas and 50cent stuff that dominates the top 20 downloads on iTunes.

Has anyone ever looked at the top 20 in the Jazz section? Kind of scary at times:

Loius Armstrong "What a Wonderful Life" has been number 1 since I put iTunes on my computer, what, 3-4 years ago? Currently it is #1 AND #5. Not to disparrage Mr. Armstrong, but come-on people! 100 years of Jazz and you go for this?

Then you get all the Cullums and Kralls and Botti's of the world. Not horrible per se, but it doesn't quite tear it up, musically speaking. Thankfully, there are always the Coltrane, Davis and Brubeck standards mixed in the top 10. I just wonder, though, if so many people are buying "Take 5", then where are the other tunes from that album? They are all very good, but the masses are only buying Take 5. I read somewhere it was even in the pop charts when that song came out, so maybe it has the catchy pop-formula to it, 50 years later still ;-)

Something tells me that anytime a jazz standard gets used in a commercial spot or in a movie or on a tv show, it suddenly shoots to the top of the iTunes chart. The sad thing (which I think will happen with the ipod video) is that people's attention spans are fleeting.

It may open the door to perhaps 1 of the 10000 people that download it. The rest just reach in, grab the tune, and run back to their comfort zone of Top40 music.

Stu_Strib

03-25-2006, 08:54 AM

Hey guys, I just realized something. My wife's Great Uncle is in that Burns "Jazz" documentary.

I haven't seen it but from what I know of my late Great-Uncle-in-Law, Dr. Charles Black (which is quite a lot now); he was a pioneer in U.S. Civil Rights issues (Brown vs. Board of Education) Here's his wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Black

With that, his inclusion in "Jazz" shows an obvious editorial direction to highlight the social issue of civil rights. Really, Dr. Black wasn't a musician himself, so who is he to be in a documentary about the history of Jazz? My wife told me that he was a racist himelf as a youngster (out of sheer ignorance, not malice) and at age 16 saw Louis Armstrong in Austin (during heavy segregated times). That changed his mind forever. My wife had a quote from him, I can't remember, but basically he said that if genius existed in a black man, then Loius Armstrong was a genius. Although I find some of the anecdotes of reverse-discrimination in this thread reprehensible, I would just like to mention the history of jazz IS interwoven with the raise of civil rights and stories of racism and segregation.

Just thinking, that may be why many of the white artists where left out. Again, though, I haven't seen the video. I thought I'd just bring some personal insight.

Interestingly enough marying into my wife's family is what has rekindled my interest in Jazz after a good 15 year hiatus. I wish I would have met Dr. Black, but he died before I met my wife. His brother has license plates that read "BIXLIVES". How is that for some old school? ( I had to look up Bix).

jazzgregg

03-25-2006, 09:31 AM

Somehow, though, I get the feeling that Steve Jobs is a half-hearted jazz fan, and that this ad will garner interest for about 5 minutes. People will go download that one tune and then go back to there Nickelback, Black-Eyed Peas and 50cent stuff that dominates the top 20 downloads on iTunes.

Has anyone ever looked at the top 20 in the Jazz section? Kind of scary at times:

Loius Armstrong "What a Wonderful Life" has been number 1 since I put iTunes on my computer, what, 3-4 years ago? Currently it is #1 AND #5. Not to disparrage Mr. Armstrong, but come-on people! 100 years of Jazz and you go for this?

Then you get all the Cullums and Kralls and Botti's of the world. Not horrible per se, but it doesn't quite tear it up, musically speaking. Thankfully, there are always the Coltrane, Davis and Brubeck standards mixed in the top 10. I just wonder, though, if so many people are buying "Take 5", then where are the other tunes from that album? They are all very good, but the masses are only buying Take 5. I read somewhere it was even in the pop charts when that song came out, so maybe it has the catchy pop-formula to it, 50 years later still ;-)

Something tells me that anytime a jazz standard gets used in a commercial spot or in a movie or on a tv show, it suddenly shoots to the top of the iTunes chart. The sad thing (which I think will happen with the ipod video) is that people's attention spans are fleeting.

It may open the door to perhaps 1 of the 10000 people that download it. The rest just reach in, grab the tune, and run back to their comfort zone of Top40 music.

Stu, a couple of things:
1. The tune is 'What a Wonderful World'
2. You need to go to a brick and mortar CD store, asap. iTues is a poor representation of Jazz popularity.

Other than that, I agree with you. Every time SOMETHING 'happens' in the Jazz world, us Jazzers get excited, thinking, 'hey, maybe NOW, it will happen that people will get hooked'. examples:
That new swing 'craze'- no one bought CDs from anyone other than these bands, I don't think, even though we hoped they would.

The Ken Burns thing. It was the worst thing I'd ever seen, but still we said 'well, look at all these 'Ken Burns Jazz' albums here of people like Mingus (who was left out of the show) , maybe THIS will bring them to Jazz. No, people only bought the Ken Burns albums.

The ipod commercial is no different. No matter how much we want it to be, I highly doubt it. This may sound cynical, and myabe it is, but I'm the first guy to say 'hey, if it brings more people to Jazz' only to always be dissapointed. It's like always walking by that pretty girl/boy in grade 4, hoping that she'll talk to you. You dress all cute and comb your hair, thinking, 'maybe this time', but it hasn't yet and deep down, you want him/her to talk to you, but you know it ain't happening=).

I WANT to still believe that something like an ipod commercial will introduce people to Jazz, but your right Stu, they go and download that tune and then go back to their other stuff.

What draws (young) people to Jazz is Jazz. It IS Miles, or Chick Corea or one of those kind of players. I see this in my students all the time. They don't come in and say 'do you know Chris Potter', lol! They say 'hey, my Uncle played me this Miles Davis album called Milestones, do you know it'? and so on. I want to see proof of documented cases of anyone going further into Jazz from this ipod commercial (or anything else I mentioned).

Until then, I remain the (sad, dissapointed) skeptic.=)

G

Loge

03-25-2006, 10:58 AM

Loge, ironically Wagner applies here, but not in the way you probably believe.involved.

Once again a very good reply, Elvin. No irony implied in my choice of Wagner for the example of 'reverse influence' and it's place in the generation of new musical forms. Debussy in his youth was, by his own admission, a hardcore Wagnerian (as were a large portion of the French intellectuals at the time). It was only with a monumental effort that he and others were able to shake the tremendous pull of the'Master' and establish their own voice. It was the same with Nietzsche in the philosophical and literary area. By having a clarified target as a point of departure, the newer ideas and forms of artistic expression took root with astonishing and undreamed of results.

My apologies if the discussion is veering too far off topic - just a few points and it's back to jazz proper.

I'm entirely familiar with the sordid details of Wagner's personage having studied the man and his works with great interest for over two decades. I've even been to Bayreuth. For those who admire his musical achievements (and they are substantial) his amoral standing as a human being casts a long, dark shadow indeed. That's why there exist so many apologists and it is virtually impossible to reconcile the quality of the art with the quality of the man. Can we separate the man from the art as some scholars suggest we must? Can we separate Marsalis the man from his music? While Wynton is no where close to Wagner in respect to the latter's questionable humanity, I do see similarities in their shared aspects of 'ego', sense of 'mission', widespread influence and self appointed 'authority'. Looks like a pretty good target.

Just for the record, even though their relationship was a stormy one with many falling outs, Liszt remained a staunch supporter of Wagner's "Music of the Future" to the bitter end.

So much more to discuss but not here. Thanks,Y'all (and sorry, Stu).

Oh, and OZjazzer, I think the Mark Twain quote is "Wagner's music is better than it sounds" (hehe)

Stu_Strib

03-25-2006, 11:20 AM

So much more to discuss but not here. Thanks,Y'all (and sorry, Stu).

)

No problems. I'm probably the worst offender of veering conversations of topic ever.

OZjazzer

03-25-2006, 02:53 PM

Oh, and OZjazzer, I think the Mark Twain quote is "Wagner's music is better than it sounds" (hehe)

You are right but do a get a few points for being close?

And jazzgregg - I am not denying that some new jazz fans don't hit the ground running but my personal experience over many years is that far more people start liking easy to digest jazz sounds and then move on to the hard stuff. So is it better not to have things like the iPod commercial, Krall, Botti and Cullum at all? Frankly I don't care what gets them to open the door to jazz, as long as they open it.

If people aren't exposed to any jazz sounds at all how will they ever get a taste for it? They can't all wait for their uncle to play them Milestones. I can tell you that a lot of classical music fans have started by being exposed to classical music on a movie soundtrack or a TV commercial. It's the same thing surely?

Guillermo

03-25-2006, 03:06 PM

I don't know what the whole deal with this Ipod commercial is...

I mean, looking at it from another perspective, the marketing standpoint, it makes perfect sense... the real hardcore jazz collector is NOT the DOWNLOADING type... first of all downloading is the least convenient or desirable way to get your music if we're talking about jazz, as well as classical orchestral music... be it legal online store or illegally.

And second, IF you want to attract attention from YOUR CORE AUDIENCE (kids and young adults who listen mostly to hip-hop, electronica and recent rock), what's the smartest move?... I mean this is why Pepsi does ads with Britney Spears instead of Joni Mitchell.

I think this is way broader than Wynton... he is part of a marketing plan mix... just like U2 and Eminem.

And I say this not from a perspective of a the jazz collector or drummer I am... but from my perspective as a Creative Director on an advertising agency.

I get my jazz the old fashion way... BUYING the records... just like any serious collector... jazz is one of the FEW kinds of music left where record sales still make a profit, because it has a niche core audience and the cost of production and promotion are way less (less ads, no videos) than that of popular music.

jazzgregg

03-25-2006, 04:33 PM

I get my jazz the old fashion way... BUYING the records... .

Exactly. iTunes/downloading is not something most Jazz fans prefer ovr having the album in thier hands, or so I'd guess. This is what I awas referring to in saying Stu needs to go to an actual store (go, Stu....run!)

OZJazzer- I never said something like the ipod commercial was a bad marketing idea (reserving judgement), but do you actually know people that have been introduced to Jazz though one of these gateways and then say, bought a Monk album? If so, you will override my own experience and the evidence will show that in fact these things DO lead to people buting actual Jazz recordings.

It's true, the fact that Wynton is on the commercial, not say, Wayne or McCoy, illustrates how much Wynton is mere product and is being used as such. Quick, what kind of watch does Wynton wear? Exactly.

G

theduke86

03-25-2006, 05:23 PM

Gregg- You're right about the iTunes thing. I doubt people will be running to buy Ascension by Coltrane after they listen to Wynton's thing. Oddly enough, the album that got me into jazz was Milestones. Philly Joe's drumming on that one still makes me snap my fingers.
Anyways, Ellis Marsalis came around here last night, I went to check him out. It was all guys from the old school. It sounded like a band from 1961 or so, when they were starting to take those standards out a little. The evening was a little dated, but I enjoyed it... The drummer, Adonis Rose (one of Wynton's old ones) reminded me of Art Blakey or Philly Joe very strongly, I was really digging it. They could not be described as progressive in any way... The night was billed as an evening of New Orleans Jazz, so I was expecting old school stuff. I enjoyed myself immensely. As much as I love the Ari Hoenigs, Billy Stewarts and Billy Kilsons of the world, I like to hear a guy who can lay it down old school too. Mind you, I might not have liked it outside that context but it was great in that context. Much like the Lincoln Center orchestra.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 05:29 PM

Debussy in his youth was, by his own admission, a hardcore Wagnerian (as were a large portion of the French intellectuals at the time). It was only with a monumental effort that he and others were able to shake the tremendous pull of the'Master' and establish their own voice.

While Wynton is no where close to Wagner in respect to the latter's questionable humanity, I do see similarities in their shared aspects of 'ego', sense of 'mission', widespread influence and self appointed 'authority'. Looks like a pretty good target.

Just for the record, even though their relationship was a stormy one with many falling outs, Liszt remained a staunch supporter of Wagner's "Music of the Future" to the bitter end.

Yes, you are right. Debussy originally worshiped the musical contributions of Wagner. But does anyone actually envision a future time when young jazz innovators will be required to shake the totemic creative grasp of a Marsalian influence?

Come to think of it, other than Tain Watts, what other substantial drummers (with enduring staying power) have come from the Marsalis experience? For that matter, numerous world class musicians have come and gone from Marsalis ensembles, in a manner similar (albeit smaller) to Davis and Blakey. But, can anyone think of a single former sideman whose time with Marsalis elevated them to a status approximating or equalling their former leader, as with Tony Williams, Coltrane and so many others with Davis, or the plethora who started with Blakey before actually surpassing him in fame and influence? This is just another demonstration of how Marsalis uses up all the oxygen in the room.

Target wise, jazz history will see Marsalis as the singular bullseye of the latter twentieth/early 21st century. Then over time (100 years or so) he will only be a passing footnote, as is the case with all who substitute innovation with appropriation.

Yes, Liszt did continue to admire Wagner's contributions, much in the way that musicians forgave the personal sins of Charlie Parker. But Wynton's obvious lack of substance will not afford him the same opportunity. In a few years, a new generation... distanced from political controversy, will observe the previous Marsalis era with only skepticism and confusion.

Elvin4ever

03-25-2006, 05:34 PM

Anyways, Ellis Marsalis came around here last night, I went to check him out. It was all guys from the old school. It sounded like a band from 1961 or so, when they were starting to take those standards out a little. The evening was a little dated, but I enjoyed it.
IMO Unlike the sons, Ellis Marsalis is the real thing. I have always enjoyed his work.

Guillermo

03-25-2006, 07:40 PM

...Come to think of it, other than Tain Watts, what other substantial drummers (with enduring staying power) have come from the Marsalis experience? For that matter, numerous world class musicians have come and gone from Marsalis ensembles, in a manner similar (albeit smaller) to Davis and Blakey. But, can anyone think of a single former sideman whose time with Marsalis elevated them to a status approximating or equalling their former leader, as with Tony Williams, Coltrane and so many others with Davis, or the plethora who started with Blakey before actually surpassing him in fame and influence? This is just another demonstration of how Marsalis uses up all the oxygen in the room.

I don't know if this is a completely fair statement... I undesrtand it... and can certainly see how someone like Buddy Rich could see himself in that situation you describe...

However, it is somehow a fact that many talented artists have worked with loads of sidemen that could not reach a level as equal, wich had nothing to do with the leader's ego or bloated protagonism... just that the guys they worked with did not have that star quality or something unique as performers to separate them from being considered more than quality sidemen.

For one thing I think it is THE MARSALIS brothers who were the sidemen that exploted to fame... becuae come to think of it, they were all sidemen to begin with... and that perhaps the snowball stopped there... unlike what happened with such prolific talent magnets as Blakey, Gary Burton or Miles, that part is true...

But to say it is BECAUSE of them, that's debatable, I mean take for instance people like Carla Bley... or the Dave Holland... many talented musicians have being their sidemen, but not in a way that you could consider their equals... and I doubt it's because of ego, not these people... so maybe the reason is not that, or at least it's not easy thing to prove...

The reason I believe the real jazz community does not embrace these guys, is because of the role they have SELF-given and they act upon, wich was not given by the community to them... yet somehow trascends in the media... however when the guys were kids starting out, things were different, they were regarded as talented promises back then... and that fallout is sort of sad... that everyone knows who Brandford Marsalis is, while you almost NEVER hear anything in the media about someone like Eric Dolphy... of course that sort of justifies the rejection in a way.

Stu_Strib

03-25-2006, 08:11 PM

I was going to say more along the lines of the iPod commercial, but I didn't want to start any type of pro/anti-mac discussion (as they lead nowhere, as I've been an avid mac user since 1988, I KNOW)

Steve Jobs is obviously a jazz fan. I don't know personally how into it he is, but from an advertising aspect, he is obviously trying to associate 'Mac User' with somewhat more of a sophisticated person. I'm not sure what that is called in marketing, but it's like any high end item, with the image, they want to portray luxury and sophistication and all that.

And of course there is always the Eminem crap to balance it out, a little street cred...

As for downloading tunes...well, I have to admit, the last places I've lived haven't had any jazz specific stores. If I'm gonna get my "Milestones" from Target, Walmart or Borders, why not just buy it from Apple, at home, and have it immediately? There is a lot to be said about the power of the 30 second samples on iTunes, although on a 15 minute Miles tune it is hard to pick which 30 seconds to post.

Also, a lot of the stuff I hear on NPR is only available direct from the artists publisher online. I've purchased some cds and the online tune. I prefer the cd, because I can rip the song myself, but sometimes you do what you gotta do.

I'll probably remain primarily an iTunes shopper, until I live in a metropolitan area. Jazz is much more popular in urban areas. Now that I live in the UK I have to admit, in my town, the only Jazz cd I've seen is at the Starbucks. Sigh....

mattsmith

03-25-2006, 11:21 PM

I don't know if this is a completely fair statement... I undesrtand it... and can certainly see how someone like Buddy Rich could see himself in that situation you describe...

However, it is somehow a fact that many talented artists have worked with loads of sidemen that could not reach a level as equal, wich had nothing to do with the leader's ego or bloated protagonism... just that the guys they worked with did not have that star quality or something unique as performers to separate them from being considered more than quality sidemen.

For one thing I think it is THE MARSALIS brothers who were the sidemen that exploted to fame... becuae come to think of it, they were all sidemen to begin with... and that perhaps the snowball stopped there... unlike what happened with such prolific talent magnets as Blakey, Gary Burton or Miles, that part is true...

But to say it is BECAUSE of them, that's debatable, I mean take for instance people like Carla Bley... or the Dave Holland... many talented musicians have being their sidemen, but not in a way that you could consider their equals... and I doubt it's because of ego, not these people... so maybe the reason is not that, or at least it's not easy thing to prove...

The reason I believe the real jazz community does not embrace these guys, is because of the role they have SELF-given and they act upon, wich was not given by the community to them... yet somehow trascends in the media... however when the guys were kids starting out, things were different, they were regarded as talented promises back then... and that fallout is sort of sad... that everyone knows who Brandford Marsalis is, while you almost NEVER hear anything in the media about someone like Eric Dolphy... of course that sort of justifies the rejection in a way.
Guillermo,

Your real smart and all. But I don't know about some of this man. Just comparing a genius like Buddy Rich to a guy like Wynton is like comparin' a real apple to a plastic apple. One is fake. Whether you like BR or not, he was original. Wynton is Freddie Hubbard without the feeling. And on ballads, he's Miles without the feeling. Just off the top of my head Tain Watts and the piano player Kenny Kirkland had far more goin' on as musicians than a copycat like Wynton Marsalis, and they were longtimers in his band.

I don't know about Bley or Holland either man. In Bley's case, her own husband and bass player Steve Swallow is probably just as famous as her, and in her first band her first husband Paul Bley is probably MORE famous than her. In Holland's band you got Chris Potter. How many dozens of times have we already seen him mentioned just in this one thread? I have family members who know this Wynton guy. He's really that way.

About the media stuff. Yeah, you're right the media is not up with the musician's thoughts. But this isn't goin' to matter in the future since the musicians will write the histories anyhow. But for now its a problem.

There is a kinda rewrting about what went down about Marsalis and all the promise stuff. My dad for instance feels that all of the media's opinion of how great Wynton was is really based on his playin' classical and jazz equally well at a young age. It was really nothing else other than this, since media would have never gotten modern jazz.

But, you know alot of jazz people from this time played classical and do the same now. In college now and then in the US, you have to learn all the classical everybody else does before you get to do jazz. It's not the way at the places like Berklee. But everywhere else it is. For instance both my dad and grandfather are classical conductors too. Its not that unusual. But since reporters and such didn't know that, they thought we should all supposed to bow down to it. It was dumb IMO. Ask the concert band guys my age who are on this forum. They know this is true.

Yeah, he was very great as a young jazz guy and all these people thought he would be the new Miles. Problem was he never grew up and now we all pay for it, especially guys like my dad whose entire generation was skipped over so everybody could be all over this jazzman playin' classical stuff, which is somethin' he quit trying to do about 20 years ago anyway.

In my young life I've never seen all that many creative jazz people ever defend this guy since he's screwed up so much stuff for the real guys. You think all those fights about WFD are somethin' just try to get good jazz guys to back down about their Wynton opinions. It's not gonna happen.

Bernhard

03-25-2006, 11:30 PM

jazzgregg

03-25-2006, 11:37 PM

What great discussions here.....the whole history and future of jazz....surpassing by far my knowledge of jazzhistory and my poor english. I'm proud of you guys - and all this on a drummer forum. And this Marsalis-Guy: is this the man with this strange big embouchure on his trumpet?

Bernhard

Bernhard :Yeah, that's the guy.

By the way, for all following the Marsalis discussion, ask yourselves this: why is Wynton the only Marsalis with an accent?

G

theduke86

03-25-2006, 11:41 PM

Bernhard :Yeah, that's the guy.

By the way, for all following the Marsalis discussion, ask yourselves this: why is Wynton the only Marsalis with an accent?

G
Easy, Gregg. It's way easier for him to be a hip cat if he's got a drawl. Nevermind that Branford or Jason don't....
His father does though.

jazzgregg

03-25-2006, 11:44 PM

Easy, Gregg. It's way easier for him to be a hip cat if he's got a drawl. Nevermind that Branford or Jason don't....
His father does though.

Duke, you're not really much for sarcasm or rhetorical questions, are you?=)

G

Elvin4ever

03-26-2006, 12:13 AM

Duke, you're not really much for sarcasm or rhetorical questions, are you?=)

G
It's a common drum forum reaction Gregg. Had this been the Travis thread, your comment would have resulted in a good 40 posts, and at least an equal number of rebuttals (LOL). Since the initiation of this thread, most are only now re experiencing the sensations associated with normal conversation.

theduke86

03-26-2006, 12:37 AM

Duke, you're not really much for sarcasm or rhetorical questions, are you?=)

G
Just playing, Gregg. As Elvin said, normal conversation. :)

Guillermo

03-26-2006, 12:45 AM

Elvinforever

Yes... I see what you mean...

When you are a working musician INSIDE the world of jazz, the perspective is much more complex and broad... like what you said about your family.

From that point, I can't really argue that, because for me, music or jazz drumming are not a matter of making a living... I enjoy them as a hardcore fan, it's a life thing... but I happen to make a living on something else.

So actually, what you know this man has been doing all these years, I actually compared it to what some people I know have done in other areas where I DO have that inside the business perspective... and you know what?... I can see it... perfectly.

As for example when I saw the advertising comments... I do know the inside scoop on that... and my friend, if you had an idea of how much money was in for that man on that ad... boy, ha, ha, ha... JazzGregg will probably burst... ha, ha, ha.

Knowing from the inside is a tricky subject... because you take someone like me for example, who maybe has listened to what most people would consider, a lot of this music for years... YET, that inside the business perspective does not come on the CD packaging... ha, ha, ha... all I see is the pretty side... so after this analysis I guess you are right.

Stu_Strib

03-26-2006, 01:13 AM

What accent? Maybe I've lived in too many places recently to spot them anymore :-(

And wouldn't Bernhard be thinking of Dizzy Gillespie and the weird ambiture?

jazzgregg

03-26-2006, 02:19 AM

Man, it's true, sarcasm doesn't translate very well, E4E. Duke, you're full of crap, you really answered me. You gave it away by giving my reason for asking in your answer.=)

Guillermo- I can only imagine how much money Wynton made for that ad. Not to mention, probably got a few free ipods too (maybe the U2 one?)..

Stu- I assumed Bernhard meant ON his trumpet, the mouthpiece, and Wynton has a custom trumpet with a big mouthpiece (as does Terrence Blanchard- same maker). And yes, Wynton has an accent that makes him sound like he's from the south. No, he did not have this when 'Black Codes' was recorded.

When you have something invested in a thing, you care about it more, you have something to lose. If you're on the outside looking in, you're just a spectator who will never be able to understand what it means to have a stake in what you're looking at. Now, before you all flip out and call me arrogant, consider this:

About 7-8 years ago, my wife (then GF) and I decided we were going to go to the race track to watch some horse racing. So we wen't and just watched a few races, no big deal, but it was boring. Horses, whatever-blah, blah, blah. Then we decided to put some money on a random horse. Like 3 bucks or some measley amount. Well let me tell you, we yelled for that horse to win like you wouldn't believe-lol. Not that it was much money, but since we invested in him, we cared and had something to lose, AND something to gain. It changed everything from our perspective.

All of you still having a hard time coming to grips with things in this thread, think about that.
(btw- our horse lost, I think)
G

Elvin4ever

03-26-2006, 03:46 AM

Elvinforever

Yes... I see what you mean...

When you are a working musician INSIDE the world of jazz, the perspective is much more complex and broad... like what you said about your family.

I wish I had delivered that remarkable response. But it was instead written by Matt Smith. He is the one with the musicial family once based in New Orleans. I was going to reply myself since your comments were actually about my post, but young Smith beat me to it. My goodness, that young man certainly knows his jazz. As for my family, the good musicians are mostly aunts, uncles and cousins. Matt's father is a Fulbright Scholar of Music and his grandfather is a phenomenal world class trombonist.

Loge

03-26-2006, 06:44 AM

But, can anyone think of a single former sideman whose time with Marsalis elevated them to a status approximating or equalling their former leader, as with Tony Williams, Coltrane and so many others with Davis, or the plethora who started with Blakey before actually surpassing him in fame and influence?

Perhaps Marcus Roberts? (he asks cautiously). I don't know. Certainly not the same level of fame and influence, but his time with Marsalis surely put him on the map and he presently has a decent discography. I would like to think that he might be an example of a player who, while certainly fuctioning within the constraints of older, traditional stylings, is not just copying or ripping them off. Case in point (for me) would be the Joplin interpretations where he seems to be trying to push things around a bit. His ressurection of the totally abandoned 'stride' technique (so prominent in the styles of Morton, Waller et al) struck me as interesting because it seemed like he was truly attempting to put a personal and more modern spin on a very old rhythmic approach. Haven't heard the Gershwin or Ellington studies but I admit to really enjoying his first couple of releases, "Deep in the Shed" and "Alone with Three Giants" even though they are indeed "Wynton" traditional and an extension of his approach as a sideman (which I think he still was at the time). That bell strike near the beginning of 'Nebuchanezzar" from "Deep in the Shed" gets me everytime.

Bill Lumbergh

03-26-2006, 06:47 AM

Guillermo

03-26-2006, 03:12 PM

Sorry, couldn't be bothered to read all 5 pages, but I would like to cast my vote for Brian Blade. I've seen him play a few times now, and all I can say is that there are few drummers out there now in any genre that play as tastefully as he does. He keeps things very interesting while remaining relatively true to the roots of the jazz genre. If you ever have the chance to see him, I'd highly recommend it. Very inspiring.

Well... I have to agree with Brian Blade... I absolutely love his play"Brian Blade Fellowship" and it is very interesting... great combination of instruments... very atmospheric, yet uncommon, convincing and moving.

He's got old school vibe... a sort of deepness and looseness in his playing a very mellow sound for his drums... but with flawless technique and very modern approach. And he certainly can play with a great pocket too... as he has done with Seal, specially live.

The only thing I did not know is that he was associated at any time with the Marsalis clan... wich, as you may have noted many here don't follow up on... ha, ha, ha.

Elvin4ever

03-26-2006, 03:30 PM

The only thing I did not know is that he was associated at any time with the Marsalis clan... wich, as you may have noted many here don't follow up on... ha, ha, ha.
We Wynton detractors are of course aware that he was nurtured under the watchful eye of Ellis Marsalis. If you recall, he is the one Marsalis we admire and respect.

Yes, he did play with Wynton on ocassion, but built his initial reputation performing with others, especially Joshua Redman etc...

He was also intensely mentored by local New Orleans drum master Johnny Vidacovich.

No Guillermo, we have studied our foe, and know him well...haha.

Guillermo

03-26-2006, 03:37 PM

Ha, ha, ha... "have your friend close, but your enemies closer" kind of thing?...

Man, now that you mention Vidacovich, it makes perfect sense!... just looking at him play and you can see the influence.

He's got also a certain John Christensen kind of intensity... a bit subdued bursts and explosions, very, very loose, yet every note on the groove... sort of like a jazzy Jim Keltner, with a more soulful tint to it.

I put the CD on full blast about 15 minutes after the post... ha, ha, ha... oh it's good that it's Sunday.

jazzgregg

03-27-2006, 07:27 PM

We Wynton detractors are of course aware that he was nurtured under the watchful eye of Ellis Marsalis. If you recall, he is the one Marsalis we admire and respect.

Yes, he did play with Wynton on ocassion, but built his initial reputation performing with others, especially Joshua Redman etc...

He was also intensely mentored by local New Orleans drum master Johnny Vidacovich.

No Guillermo, we have studied our foe, and know him well...haha.

Agreed. We all like Ellis. What's wrong with the kids, then? Yeah, the mom must be a nutcase=)

Also agreed about Blade. He carved his own thing despite his Marsalis connections, not because of them. Tain, on the other hand appears to be inexorably linked to the Marsalis', whether he wants to be or not (I think he's cool with it). I think one of the things that bug many of us about that clan is the vast amount of talent in the gene pool, yet it always appears someone peed in it.

On a related note: I saw the ipod commercial again last night. I have 2 questions:
1. Who's the guy with the actual ipod and dreads and why is he 'dancing' like Count Basie on painkillers?

2. Why is Wynton himself walking sideways, doing his 'Sam Fisher with a trumpet' impression?

(Before you all think I'm ACTUALLY asking these questions and try and answer them, I'm not, I'm just pointing out apple's silliness.)

G

edit: Yeah, Johnny Vid! That Astral Project stuff? Smokin. Guillermo- good observations on Johnny and Christensen (one of my faves).

Drad-dog

03-27-2006, 11:38 PM

Agreed. We all like Ellis. What's wrong with the kids, then? Yeah, the mom must be a nutcase=)

I think it was Homer who said very few sons ever match the greatness of their fathers.
Glad you put that little smiley face at the end there. For a minute I thought you were dissing Wynton's mamma!

Loge

03-27-2006, 11:50 PM

Not wishing to beat a dead horse, but I meant to ask a question earlier concerning the Burns/Marsalis part of the discussion. It's mentioned a few times that since some of the earliest jazz musicians were never recorded, and there remain no living witnesses who actually heard them, then there is no possible way that Wynton could describe their sound. My question: is it possible that there exist written accounts of such by contemporaries - even if they are purely anecdotal? Written descriptions (some in great detail) of the musical qualities of, for example, the orchestras and ensembles of past centuries are found in abundance. (Noted that the level of literacy was, for all intents and purposes, greater in the European symphonic scene than it was in the early days of Jazz.) So are Burns/Marsalis really just making stuff up for effect or are they privy to a reference as described above. Your thoughts?

finnhiggins

03-27-2006, 11:58 PM

I think it was Homer who said very few sons ever match the greatness of their fathers.

You'd have to be gutted for Bart then, wouldn't you?

Not wishing to beat a dead horse, but I meant to ask a question earlier concerning the Burns/Marsalis part of the discussion. It's mentioned a few times that since some of the earliest jazz musicians were never recorded, and there remain no living witnesses who actually heard them, then there is no possible way that Wynton could describe their sound. My question: is it possible that there exist written accounts of such by contemporaries - even if they are purely anecdotal? Written descriptions (some in great detail) of the musical qualities of, for example, the orchestras and ensembles of past centuries are found in abundance. (Noted that the level of literacy was, for all intents and purposes, greater in the European symphonic scene than it was in the early days of Jazz.) So are Burns/Marsalis really just making stuff up for effect or are they privy to a reference as described above. Your thoughts?

That's all fine and dandy, but if you're going to present your understanding based on contemporary written accounts then you shouldn't be rabbiting on evocatively in a manner suggesting you've actually heard what you're talking about.

I mean, it'd be a bit like me telling everybody what a great conversationalist Gene Krupa was, presented as if it was an opinion derived from personal experience.

Loge

03-28-2006, 12:12 AM

That's all fine and dandy, but if you're going to present your understanding based on contemporary written accounts then you shouldn't be rabbiting on evocatively in a manner suggesting you've actually heard what you're talking about.

I mean, it'd be a bit like me telling everybody what a great conversationalist Gene Krupa was, presented as if it was an opinion derived from personal experience.

I understand what you're saying, Finn. I'll have to watch those first few early episodes again, sometime, taking note of the manner of Wynton's delivery. My concern was the accusation that the content of his statements were based on nothing beyond his own imagination.

T.L.

03-28-2006, 05:10 AM

Elvin4ever

03-28-2006, 06:10 AM

When I saw the Ken Burns thing with Wynton and he talked about guys like Buddy Bolden, my interpretation was that Marsalis was trying to educate the uneducated (mass audience) about some of the legends -- sure Wynton never heard Buddy play, BUT I think it's safe to say Marsalis has done his homework ont he subject and read or heard anecdotes about what Bolden and others played and sounded like.
In all respect, how do you arrive at this conclusion? Post after educated post refutes your contention. Again, the problem is that Marsalis is not trained to understand the delicacies of historical research. Were he a trained musicologist, he would have known that there were NO verified written anecdotes describing the Bolden style, other than brief second hand anecdotes from jazz pioneers Pops Foster and Kid Ory...and only then Bolden's music was described as blusey and loud. After that, absolutely nothing can justify the famous Marsalis historical re creation that brought about such appalling derision in the field of jazz history.

In fact much of the Marsalis derived descriptive analysis of Bolden was borrowed directly from the discredited anecdotes of one William Geary "Bunk" Johnson, a trumpeter so desperate to be a part of the Bolden history, that he lied about his own age, so as to have been old enough to have performed with Bolden's band..an act that skewed for years Bolden's own historical timeline...a situation that was not remedied until the publication of the investigative research guide The Search For Buddy Bolden, by Donald Marquis. One of the young interns on that ground breaking project was Matt Smith's dad Tom, one of the foremost jazz researchers of his generation, and a guest contributor to this thread.

Therefore, the Marsalis accounts of the Bolden style were essentially Johnson's lies, willfully and voluntarily placed into Wynton's mouth by Wynton himself, to make it sound as if he had done his own homework, and with no credit given to Johnson. Quite frankly, if one is going to steal research, it is best to steal from verifiable sources. It is for this and a thousand other similar reasons that Marsalis has absolutely no credibility in the field of jazz history, and is discredited at every turn by musician/scholars worldwide.

jazzgregg

03-28-2006, 07:04 AM

In all respect, how do you arrive at this conclusion? Post after educated post refutes your contention. Again, the problem is that Marsalis is not trained to understand the delicacies of historical research. Were he a trained musicologist, he would have known that there were NO verified written anecdotes describing the Bolden style, other than brief second hand anecdotes from jazz pioneers Pops Foster and Kid Ory...and only then Bolden's music was described as blusey and loud. After that, absolutely nothing can justify the famous Marsalis historical re creation that brought about such appalling derision in the field of jazz history.

In fact much of the Marsalis derived descriptive analysis of Bolden was borrowed directly from the discredited anecdotes of one William Geary "Bunk" Johnson, a trumpeter so desperate to be a part of the Bolden history, that he lied about his own age, so as to have been old enough to have performed with Bolden's band..an act that skewed for years Bolden's own historical timeline...a situation that was not remedied until the publication of the investigative research guide The Search For Buddy Bolden, by Donald Marquis. One of the young interns on that ground breaking project was Matt Smith's dad Tom, one of the foremost jazz researchers of his generation, and a guest contributor to this thread.

Therefore, the Marsalis accounts of the Bolden style were essentially Johnson's lies, willfully and voluntarily placed into Wynton's mouth by Wynton himself, to make it sound as if he had done his own homework, and with no credit given to Johnson. Quite frankly, if one is going to steal research, it is best to steal from verifiable sources. It is for this and a thousand other similar reasons that Marsalis has absolutely no credibility in the field of jazz history, and is discredited at every turn by musician/scholars worldwide.

And people wonder why the Ken Burns thing is a nightmare.

G

Loge

03-28-2006, 07:16 AM

In fact much of the Marsalis derived descriptive analysis of Bolden was borrowed directly from the discredited anecdotes of one William Geary "Bunk" Johnson, a trumpeter so desperate to be a part of the Bolden history, that he lied about his own age, so as to have been old enough to have performed with Bolden's band..an act that skewed for years Bolden's own historical timeline...a situation that was not remedied until the publication of the investigative research guide The Search For Buddy Bolden, by Donald Marquis.

Thanks again, Elvin. That pretty much answers my earlier question. It really saddens me, though, as I really am (maybe now, was) a big fan of the series. Ah, sometimes ignorance is indeed bliss. The truth can set one free but often feels pretty lousy in the process!

Stu_Strib

03-28-2006, 04:09 PM

Jeff sounds like Mel Lewis (who I love) for beginners- why not listen to Mel. (Before you ask- try all of the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Big Band recordings on Solid State (LP) or Mosiac (CD).

Well I just wrapped up a week of substituting for the high school band director and found this little gem:

Thad Jones/Mel Lewis -- Consummation. A little of everything here. Hyper fast swing, hard swinging, some nasty funk, some 5/4 stuff, lovely ballads and brushes. I like this disk a lot!

And you'll be happy to know that it is a hardcopy, complete with the original liner notes and all. Superb. Now the online stores need to start adding a text file with this stuff!

Fairly straightforward, so yeah, probably good for beginners like you say. I don't really hear any specific overt things that Hamilton may overuse (Tiptoe and the brushwork sounds like the basis of Hamiltons brush work perhaps), but maybe you could point out a tune or two, or a spot in one of the tunes. Help me hone my ear.

jazzgregg

03-28-2006, 11:47 PM

Well I just wrapped up a week of substituting for the high school band director and found this little gem:

Thad Jones/Mel Lewis -- Consummation. A little of everything here. Hyper fast swing, hard swinging, some nasty funk, some 5/4 stuff, lovely ballads and brushes. I like this disk a lot!

And you'll be happy to know that it is a hardcopy, complete with the original liner notes and all. Superb. Now the online stores need to start adding a text file with this stuff!

Fairly straightforward, so yeah, probably good for beginners like you say. I don't really hear any specific overt things that Hamilton may overuse (Tiptoe and the brushwork sounds like the basis of Hamiltons brush work perhaps), but maybe you could point out a tune or two, or a spot in one of the tunes. Help me hone my ear.
Stu,
Something just occurred to me. You mentioned you don't really live near any brick and mortar CD stores you can go to- why not use the Amazon sites? They have a TON of stuff (I use the French, German and UK ones) and you actually get....a CD!!! (Oh, and yes, I'm happy that YOU'RE happy you actually have a tangible album=)

Anyway, to your question. Good ears on the brushwork. That's along the right lines. It's actually the overall concept that Hamilton is guilty of boosting. Mels very organic, swinging 'phrase like a horn player' was his thing before it was Hamilton's. The more you become familiar with Melvin, the more you'll hear that. It's not about specifics, man, it never is, don't you know that yet?=) This is the point, it isn't the copping of licks or 'letting your influences show' as much as it's the copping of concept or approach, the most personal thing about a musician.

Keep listening Stu, that was a good start!

G

OZjazzer

03-29-2006, 05:31 AM

Good ears on the brushwork. That's along the right lines. It's actually the overall concept that Hamilton is guilty of boosting. Mels very organic, swinging 'phrase like a horn player' was his thing before it was Hamilton's. The more you become familiar with Melvin, the more you'll hear that. It's not about specifics, man, it never is, don't you know that yet?=) This is the point, it isn't the copping of licks or 'letting your influences show' as much as it's the copping of concept or approach, the most personal thing about a musician. G

I understand and totally agree with the Marsalis/Burns thing but I can't quite get a handle on what Jeff Hamilton has done wrong. "Copying of concept or approach"?? I am not a big fan of Hamiltons but seriously do we only have room in our jazz lives to listen to the originators? Are we saying that Jeff is simply a clone of Mel Lewis and therefore should be dismissed?

Having listened to jazz for a very long time I recall arguments in the 60's that Mel was simply copying a style that drummers like Charlie Persip, Philly Joe, Louis Hayes and of course Kenny Clarke and Blakey had already established. Seems that most players are accused of this right through jazz history.

At the time Mel was in fact considered the 'blackest sounding' white drummer around (he was also one of the few white jazz drummers to play Gretsch). Personally I think Mel, like everybody else, simply soaked up the drum sounds he liked best which at that time happened to be the New York school of mostly afro-american drummers.

There was however some resentment that here was a white drummer getting the plumb gigs playing in a 'NY' style. Stan Levey also had to wear that that kind of criticism as well. There was however a noticeable difference between Mel and the the leading exponents of the so-called West Coast school of drummers lead at the time by Shelley Manne. 'Art Pepper Plus 11' is a great example of Mel's way of loosening up the tight, cool 'West Coast' arrangements of Marty Paich.

At the time Mel was not in anyway considered an 'innovator'. His later work with the Thad Jones Mel Lewis big band was also not considered innovative, just very very good, or did I miss something?

My point is that all of these guys picked up bits and pieces from each other - why can't Hamilton do it now? Is there a time limit? Go to the Hamilton videos on this site and download Blues for Stephanie and tell me exactly what's not to like, other than the fact that we've heard it all before? It doesn't sound like Mel Lewis to me.

Interestingly Diana Krall (another person who I guess many would include 'out' because she is too popular) has evidently dropped her previous (short lived) drummer Karriem Riggins to again tour with Hamilton and Clayton. Having heard her live with Riggins it was pretty clear that here was a (very good) drummer who was uncomfortable with the clean straight ahead style a lot of her music requires.

At the end of the day the music is good or bad, why bother bagging a very good jazz drummer for developing a style that owes something to many great drummers, Mel Lewis included? Don't see the point but am willing to learn.

Elvin4ever

03-29-2006, 06:21 AM

jazzgregg

03-29-2006, 07:43 AM

I understand and totally agree with the Marsalis/Burns thing but I can't quite get a handle on what Jeff Hamilton has done wrong. "Copying of concept or approach"?? I am not a big fan of Hamiltons but seriously do we only have room in our jazz lives to listen to the originators? Are we saying that Jeff is simply a clone of Mel Lewis and therefore should be dismissed?
I don't know what you're saying, but I'm saying this about Hamilton, so no one gets confused (and so I don't repeat myself yet again in the same thread...):
1. He's unoriginal, although swinging.
2. His career is based on someone else's bag, namely, Mel's.
3. I personally find him and that kind of player today extremely boring and completely irrelevant in 2006 (or 1996, etc..) in the same way I find people boring and irrelevant that paint like Monet or Chagall (and there are some of them as well)
4. For the last time. I am not only talking of originators. Or people whose 'influences show'. I am saying that to me, Jeff isn't being himself. He's being others. If it turns out that his own personal feel and touch ARE actually that of someone else, weird, but ok. I highly doubt it. How many drummers (completely ignoring this thread) want to be Travis Barker? They'll grow out of it and find their own voice. I'm not convinced Jeff has his own voice, or more importantly, wants to. That's how it sounds to me anyway.

Having listened to jazz for a very long time I recall arguments in the 60's that Mel was simply copying a style that drummers like Charlie Persip, Philly Joe, Louis Hayes and of course Kenny Clarke and Blakey had already established. Seems that most players are accused of this right through jazz history.

At the time Mel was in fact considered the 'blackest sounding' white drummer around (he was also one of the few white jazz drummers to play Gretsch). Personally I think Mel, like everybody else, simply soaked up the drum sounds he liked best which at that time happened to be the New York school of mostly afro-american drummers.

There was however some resentment that here was a white drummer getting the plumb gigs playing in a 'NY' style. Stan Levey also had to wear that that kind of criticism as well. There was however a noticeable difference between Mel and the the leading exponents of the so-called West Coast school of drummers lead at the time by Shelley Manne. 'Art Pepper Plus 11' is a great example of Mel's way of loosening up the tight, cool 'West Coast' arrangements of Marty Paich.

At the time Mel was not in anyway considered an 'innovator'. His later work with the Thad Jones Mel Lewis big band was also not considered innovative, just very very good, or did I miss something?
You did miss something actually. Mel is credited with redefining the big band drummer. His 'small group' approach to the big band arrangements set him apart for every other drummer that played in a big band that followed him. I got into an argument about this with John Ramsay while I was at school. I learned that the hard way- I made a crack that 'Mel wouldn't do such and such' (as I love Mel), and Ramsay reamed me out in front of the whole class citing proof after proof. I love John for that. Listen to Mel's drumming on all that stuff, then listen to another big band before it. Mel looked at it like this: The entire orchestra was one instrument with many parts. Say, for example there was a sax solo- rhythm section is playing, plus a horn, that's a quartet. Sax soli? That's just a bunch of saxes. Ensemble sections? They don't last long, then it's back to a trio or whatever. Even his whole concept of certain cymbals for certain instruments, etc. is a micro approach to a macro situation (a literal big band).

Now. Go listen to Hamilton play with his big band. Hear that creamy smoothness of his 'horn player' phrasing? Mel. Hear that attention to detail? Mel. Hear that 'playing all beboppy in a big band'? Mel. Mel's dotted 8th/16th shuffle thing is very obvious in Jeff's playing to me anyway. (see Blues for Stephanie comment later)

You are right about the reactions to Mel, for the most part, but once he started playing with Thad, everyone instantly became cool=) Still, no one really slammed his playing for it, only that there should be black cats doing the jobs, not Mel, no matter how he played. It was like the Bill Evans thing in Miles' band. No one said 'Bill sucks', they said 'there are black guys that should be on the gig' and so forth. Interesting point about the Gretsch thing, I had forgotton about that!

My point is that all of these guys picked up bits and pieces from each other - why can't Hamilton do it now? Is there a time limit? Go to the Hamilton videos on this site and download Blues for Stephanie and tell me exactly what's not to like, other than the fact that we've heard it all before? It doesn't sound like Mel Lewis to me.

No? 'Blues for Stephanie''s groove is Mels groove on 'Groove Merchant' more or less. Check it out. I'll send you a copy if you need me to=)

Interestingly Diana Krall (another person who I guess many would include 'out' because she is too popular) has evidently dropped her previous (short lived) drummer Karriem Riggins to again tour with Hamilton and Clayton. Having heard her live with Riggins it was pretty clear that here was a (very good) drummer who was uncomfortable with the clean straight ahead style a lot of her music requires.

At the end of the day the music is good or bad, why bother bagging a very good jazz drummer for developing a style that owes something to many great drummers, Mel Lewis included? Don't see the point but am willing to learn.

I'm not going to answer the question of why bother bagging him because, if you've read the rest of the thread, you know why.
Hamilton kinda reminds me of an historical re-enactor (though not as much as say, Kenny Washington, or Nash). Very knowledgable about their craft, they make people really think they are in that time period and they bring people joy and entertainment. Of course, they are just playing the part of an actual person, not at all being themselves, but rather, acting. Make of it what you will, but I am not answering these questions again for people to lazy to read the entire thread!=)

Hey moderators, next time someone asks me this, can I compile a post of my main points from this thread so you can make a sticky out of it?

G

and E4E, you're too kind with your comments, man. Thanks.

Stu_Strib

03-29-2006, 10:48 AM

Nice post OZjazzer. You are saying the things that I feel, but don't yet know how to express.

My point is that all of these guys picked up bits and pieces from each other - why can't Hamilton do it now? Is there a time limit?

From what I've taken from this thread, from JazzGregg and Matt (or his dad), is that there is a very pure faction of artists who believe very strongly in the progression of jazz. I see their point very clearly, but just don't feel compelled to feel that way. I remember a drum clinic I went to back in about 84 where the clinician (I think it was either Cobham or Famularo) played through all of his influences, then showed what he believed to be the outcome (the sum of his playing and what it is consciously and subconsiously derived from). I think since I was 14 at the time, I internalized this as important. So when guys like JazzGregg come along with their very valid points, it causes me a bit of cognitive dissonance. But, as I've revealed, I do get away with a bit of ignorance, and perhaps some of my choices of 'good' jazz aren't really very matured and developed.

At the end of the day the music is good or bad, why bother bagging a very good jazz drummer for developing a style that owes something to many great drummers, Mel Lewis included? Don't see the point but am willing to learn.

I like that line. I've said in other threads, regardless of the genre, there is really only good and bad music. I guess in the world of Jazz, it really is all relative. Hell, even Kenny G. probably has 1,000,000 times the musical knowledge of most pop/rock guitarists. (If Kenny G is as offensive as it was to me, try substituting someone less offensive, yet still really offensive, like maybe Bruce Hornberg, or perhaps Johnathon Cain...)The point being, they all have stronger musical foundations than all those kids who started with a $90 fender knock-off in their parents garage.

Also, I don't think you need to be willing to "learn", because most of this conversation seems to be issues of taste. You seem to have a strong knowledge of Jazz and Jazz History, so just contribute your own takes, and let me "learn" ;-)

Did I bring this up already? If Wynton is such a bigot, than why does his current lineup consist of a white guy, a hispanic and Ali Jackson (not going to even surmise his race/ethnicity). Seems like there are plenty of great black keyboardists and bassists for him to choose from? Not trying to start a fight, but I just thought that my observation just kinda discredits some previous claims.

I gotta see Jazz. The more you guys hate Wynton, the more I'm starting to like him, cocky or not, heh. ;-)

Bernhard

03-29-2006, 11:13 AM

Two weeks ago I stood beside Jeff Hamilton, when he played in Switzerland with the BigBand.

I was just in a mood of enjoying, watching and listening. I didn't reflect in this moment about history, legitimation, copying, futur of jazz and and and......

So, I tell you: This guy grooves, plays in the pocket and has a subtility that NEVER can be heard on a CD. When you hear this in a live-setting: just great. This made my day and I just know, when I play the same way, it will not sound the same. He's just a great drummer - same class as Peter Erskine or Steve Gadd in my opinion.

For the newer cats i recommend: Terreon Gully - Ari Hoenig - Greg Hutchinson and Brian Blade

Bernhard

Stu_Strib

03-29-2006, 12:28 PM

I keep seeing Brian Blade. What would be a defining piece I could listen to? Also, doesn't he play on a lot of pop-artists albums? Seems like I've seen him before in a non-jazz environment.

Stu

(nice post Bernhard)

Guillermo

03-29-2006, 02:27 PM

As I posted earlier... a great example of his playing is his band "Brian Blade Fellowship"... an interesting combination of atmospheric composition, great performing and different instrumentation... for his non jazz forays, I think what has to stand out is his work with SEAL, with whom I 've seen him live.

As far as the Hamilton thing, as I said earlier, if a rock drummer lays a basic solid groove, with no basic difference or innovation, but it works for the music then it's "playing for the song".

Why is that not legitimate in a jazz band?... I think what guys like Jeff Hamilton do, is what working drummers of other styles do everyday; play "what they're supposed to"... it is not groundbreaking, nor original...

But I have never seen someone saying you're ripping off Phil Rudd if you play an 8th note groove in 4/4 wih authority... somehow for many jazz fans, notoriety seems to be accepted only if accompanied with innovation, not only brilliance of excecution.

I think both are valid points of view... a working musician that excecutes beautifully achieving notoriety may not be considered a master, but if they receive recognition, I think it's fair.

theduke86

03-29-2006, 03:29 PM

Two great Blade albums are Directions in Music-Live at Massey Hall (with Brecker, Hancock, Hargrove and John Pattituci) and Chris Potter's Gratitude- he sounds great on both. You can't go wrong with him though. He smokes on the Redman stuff too. He's an awesome drummer.

Stu_Strib

03-29-2006, 03:35 PM

Two great Blade albums are Directions in Music-Live at Massey Hall (with Brecker, Hancock, Hargrove and John Pattituci)

Man, am I good. I have that one, yeah! Again, another e-purchase, so I had no idea who was on drums! So I guess I can chalk up another "good choice" by Stu. I usually sample a lot of the different stuff out there, and when they catch my ear, for whatever reason, I buy it. I really have no idea most of the time how good some of these recordings are considered when I buy them, but I'm finding that people are always bringing up some of the same recordings over and over again!

You guys are great!

p.s. I love his big dry sounding ride, any idea what it is? (on this specific recording).

Drad-dog

03-29-2006, 08:21 PM

p.s. I love his big dry sounding ride, any idea what it is? (on this specific recording).

Constantinoples, baby.

Stu_Strib

03-29-2006, 08:24 PM

T.L.

03-29-2006, 11:15 PM

Really, the only question that is worth asking is this -- can the man swing????

Jeff Hamilton swings his ass off... So does Lewis Nash.

I've heard many, many "creative" drummers that have their own voice (for sure) but can't swing and have little taste or musicality in their playing..........What's more important?

(I will add that I think that both Nash and Hamilton have their own "voices" and AREN'T merely copies of their predeccessors).

Drad-dog

03-30-2006, 12:09 AM

I wonder what model, because mine is much higher pitched and washier than that (20" Medium Thin - Low). I have heard the 22" before on other vids (medium weight, and medium thin weight) and I really dig those.

The 20" med. thin low is a great cymbal. I've had the pleasure of playing on one several times. According to Zildjian Blade uses 20" medium and light rides and a 22" medium. The man has good taste in cymbals, eh? So do you, Stu!

OZjazzer

03-30-2006, 12:38 AM

Maybe this thread will never die. Jazzgregg thanks for your patience with me but I guess at the end of the day we view Mr Hamilton from different directions. Thanks for offer but Groove Merchant is a favourite track of mine as well. We do agree on some things.

Sorry Stu to get off the subject but it is sort of related.

Yes the Gretsch thing is interesting. Back when I was would wait for my Downbeat fix every month the Gretsch ads created a lot of interest, because in Australia, there was very little choice, it was Gretsch or Ludwig with the odd Slingerland and Leedy thrown in.

Gretsch had all the bop players as I recall, Blakey, Chico Hamilton, Connie Kay, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Art Taylor, Kenny Clarke. Mel certainly played Gretsch and I think Jake Hanna (then with Herman) did as well. Not sure about Stan Levey. Rich was Slingerland (not that I cared, I was never a fan) and from memory a lot of the West Coast guys like Shelley played Leedy.

I was all set to order a Gretsch kit when the Brubeck Quartet came to town and I heard Joe Morello. His drum sound at the time (live) was absolutely unique and ... huge. The bass drum in particular was completely un-muffled and the Ludwig metal snare sounded like a whole orchestra. I had the good fortune to meet and chat with him, what a really nice guy he is. So it was Ludwig for me but I always had a suspicion that the sound I actually liked best was 'that great Gretsch sound'.

Just as an aside, the only other drummer who really blew me away (live) back then (early 60's) was Connie Kay with the MJQ. His cymbal sound was clear and almost majestic sounding and whereas Morello got that busy shuffly kind of beat going to try and make Brubeck sound like he was actually swinging, Connie just lay down this fabulous clean groove that just simply swung like hell. Sadly Connie Kay gets largely ignored these days, but his cymbal beat was fabulous and his sound was unmistakable.

Which brings me to the newer guys like Blade and Tain Watts. Frankly I often get the feeling that these great drummers often get overtaken by their technique. Too often it sounds like there's a drum solo going on under the soloist and I must say I much prefer the work of guys like Ari, Ballard, Washington, Carl Allen and Farnsworth, but maybe that's just me. The Branford Marsalis 'Love Supreme' DVD is a good example of a bad example of over the top drumming. Maybe it's just Tain trying to inject some artificial excitement in to a performance that had very little. Sad that Coltrane's masterpiece was given this performance which for me at least, sounded totally contrived.

PS: By the way jazzgregg back to an earlier comment of yours, I too noted the sudden 'interest' in the Alex Riel thread.

Renato

03-30-2006, 04:56 AM

Hey cats,
this is my first reply after reading 6 exhausting pages.

Okay first I need to hook up with Matt's dad and talk more about this Marsalis thing.

I wanted to say a couple things about Marsalis and Hamilton.

Marsalis:
My gripe with him is his carrying the torch of Stanley Crouch. Tony Williams called it best when he trashed on Crouch in Modern drummer back in the 90's(or was his 80's cover). I mean here is Crouch bagging on Miles for selling out. The nerve.

The rascist thing hurts too....I was at Berklee with Jazzgregg(somehow we didn't know each other though but shared common friends)and I can speak for myself in saying I was excluded often because of race. I couldn't play because I was white. Don't get me started on Wally's(old jazz club donw the street from Berklee)I never got so much grief from black musicians whom I had paid to go see!!!!!!!! I mean I am not saying there isn't racism and yes, they do have a right to be pissed, but all my heroes are black - Miles, Monk, Trane, mingus....I was shocked at how close - minded people were there and they'd quote Stanley Crouch and Marsalis to back up their views. I mean give me a chance before you judge me. It is a deep problem and now the children suffer for the sins of ancestors. How can I say it with out stirring up a storm - I had lots of friends of all backgrounds and usually it was cool - but at Berklee there was a problem. I was so naive - I thought I could hang with everyone...hell Elvin gave me a hug everytime I saw him.....I just didn't know - I grew up too sheltered and didn't see it until I lived in Portugal for a couple years.

Now, I have met Wynton and he was very cool to me. I also happen to know that he teaches for free - private lessons. Several of my friends used to go to New york and get lessons. His only criteria was he had to have time.

My grief with Marsalis are his political views and how they spill into the musicals diatribes he presents(coming form Crouch).

I avoided the Burns jazz thing liike the plague.....I haven't seen any of it but it was the big joke at Berklee.

Marsalis has a very good side to him but the bad thing are the agendas he apparently gets talked into. He is a virtuoso - no one can deny that. But he plays in a contrived way that ruins it for me. I wish he'd forget everything he knows and just play and not edit it. Then he would be everything he or others say he is.

Hamilton...

I met once - he is a nice guy. no doubt.

here is what I don't dig about the cat:

first - his jive uptempos. he has the mushiest uptempos alive. I mean he hits and all you here is the first note of three and the rest dissapear. I asked him about uptempos at a clinic and he said to just hit hard on 2 and 4 and let the other notes bounce out. It sounds tired. No articulation at all. Funny He cites MAx Roach as a hero ocassionally - Max had precise uptempos at 400bpm!!!

second - cat bags on Elvin! He said in Modern Drummer - I don't have the issue but It's there - who has it? Check me - he said he came from a school of technique and that was why he couldn't "hear" Elvin. After he said that he tries to pay ELvin a compliment about his phrasing. BS! Elvin eats Hamilton for breakfast - especially uptempos.(and yes I have seen mighty Elvin many times - 40- 50 times...I miss him too)I thought it was disrespectful of Hamilton to slight a master and innovator who was still living like Elvin. SO THAT IS HUGE FOR ME!

Third - he has this "I am an Elder Statesmen of Jazz" attitude. BS - Jack Dejohnette and Roy Haynes and Tootie Heath and Max Roach and Louie Bellson are the elder Statesmen of jazz drumming. His soloing comes off as "listen up here is how it's done and anything else is wrong". Again this all comes from a clinic I was at.

I guess my complaint with Hamilton is similar to Marsalis...SHUT UP AND PLAY! Both cats are talented(except Hamilton's uptempos)but both have an agenda besides good music....their own preservation of their views on History and whatever else poisons it for me. My two cents - great thread. I need to join the IAJE to come hang!

Renato

03-30-2006, 05:12 AM

oh and I hate his Remo drums - they are the lamest. C'mon Jeff - admit you record with Grestch!!!!!!!!! Admit it!

jazzgregg

03-30-2006, 05:46 AM

Renato knows his stuff, that I can assure you all of. He'll be a great asset here.
I had no idea about Wynton doing stuff for free......damn....that IS cool of him, lol.

This whole thread I knew the stuff about Hamilton that Ren just said, but I couldn't say anything because it was second hand. Now that Ren has said it, what excuses do you all have for Hamilton bagging on Elvin?

About Hamilton. This thread probably should die soon. You won't see it our way, we won't see it yours. I doubt there is anyone who's opinions changed at all with this thread. Especially not Stu's!
OZJAzzer, since you know Groove Merhcant, do you not agree that that Hamilton tune was the Groove Merchant (and a few others) feel/groove?

I'm also sorry you feel that way about Tain and Blade, especially over (boring) cats like Carl Allen and Kenny Washington. Seriously. Blade especially really has his own voice and Tain, though traditional, is pretty unique too. Washington is the biggest offender of all, IMO. But before we start a thread on why, re-read this one and replace 'Hamilton' with 'Washington' and add more expletives and exclamation points to all my posts. But Blade? You said the key word about all the offenders I've named, though in refrence to something else. To me , Hamilton, Washington et. al, sound: CONTRIVED.

Still, it's true, we're all different and in the end, this argument is going nowhere, and after 6 pages, people are still saying 'but WHY'?, lol. I (but more importantly, E4E) have outlined one side of the argument against Hamilton and Wynton and those kind of cats. There will always be the 'any publicity is good publicity' people and the 'Hamilton swings and that's all that matters' people. That's good and it IS all personal taste. But there will always be others who dig deeper, demand more out of our art, question what things like 'Modern Drummer' and other stuff like that tell you, listen with our OWN ears and not presume the prominent opinion is the correct one. The Alex Riel thread was exactly this.

G

Elvin4ever

03-30-2006, 06:09 AM

I for one do not want this thread to end. In my estimation it is the single most intelligent discussion I have witnessed on a percussion forum. Frankly, I'm happy about it, and I thank Stu for planting the seed, although the tree that sprang from the ground was probably not his original intention.

Gregg I have been arguing this jazz and politics issue my entire adult life, and I never grow tired of it. From within the context of this forum, I don't care if I have to rehash Wynton and Ken Burns another six or seven times, for a solid opportunity to delve into more salient examinations. Heck we may be able to educate some new guys in the proccess. Of course everybody talks about Wynton. These days that's how the dialogue begins.

Look at Pearl's forum. For the past year, they have been running a thread, based on a jazz premise long since forgotten. Yet, it remains very popular, and they don't dig half as deeply as we do.

No...it's all good.

OZjazzer

03-30-2006, 07:17 AM

BellsOfRhymney

03-30-2006, 07:20 AM

Another Jeff Hamilton fan here ...great live, and fat tone.

jazzgregg

03-30-2006, 07:45 AM

OK OK but somebody must have seen the Branford Marsalis Love Supreme thing, so is it contrived, boring try-hard stuff that just doesn't come off, or does someone think it's the real deal? By the wayI know Blade and Tain are fantastic but hey, even I get caught doing bad gigs. Love Blade with Redman by the way.

How can you not like Kenny?

Hamilton can't play fast? Mmm I can't quote a track right now but I think it's more to do with those trashy over-washy Bos rides he plays, it's very hard to hear any real ride cymbal definition in live situations (but he's not alone with that problem). Trouble is he owns a third of Bos so I guess he's stuck with them.

First, E4E, ok, let's keep at it then! lol, you twisted my arm (I know, it was easy). I too am at it frequently in one way or another, so I hear you!

OZ- Although I've never heard Brantford's version of ALS, a very trusted musician friend of mine said it was really really good. I am VERY skeptical of it, but I trust this guy to no end, so while I can't personally say, I almost can-=)!

Redman is great, a real voice on the horn! Oh wait, you mean Josh, not Dewey. Josh is a bore.

I loved what Kenny Washington was doing back in the 50's when his name was Max Roach.

Bos cymbals, while being as washy as an incredibly washy thing are no damn excuse for Hamilton's TECHNIQUE to playing fast! He'd sound like mush on a kitchen table with that approach.

G

BellsOfRhymney

03-30-2006, 07:58 AM

Jeff Hamilton's cymbals sound awesome, as does the rest of his fat sounding kit. And he's playing here in a few weeks, can't wait!!!!

Stu_Strib

03-30-2006, 08:30 AM

Elvin, trust me when I say I'm very satisfied with the tree that has sprung from my initial post. I wanted to learn more about modern jazz, and I've learned way more than I thought I would. I was half expecting a bunch of ignorant posts like "You should check out Anton Fig on Letterman".

I've learned two very important things so far:

1) Jazz is a subculture unto it's self, and is much more than just the music. I guess if you are raised around the bigger metropolitan areas, you have a deeper understanding of it all.

2) Jazz isn't nearly as united as I thought. I never imagined so many different factions (and the veracity of support/criticism). It is "all good" though as they say. For those of you commenting about "arguing" about this issue, I consider this a conversation. Arguments are found in threads that have the words "Barker" or "Jordison" in them.

I've also learned I'm in the group of drummers who only cares if the guy can swing. Hell, sometimes I just like a kit that sounds good. I've always been an open-minded person who can shrug off political differences.

I've also started to internalize a lot of these guys that I wasn't familiar with. I think this is very important with jazz, to know who performed what, and with whom. It is much more critical than say rock music. To the untrained ear (or the inexperienced ear) the nuances of the ride cymbal alone are lost, and they just think everyone is playing a standard ride pattern. What fascinates me most about jazz drumming, is how each drummer (the great ones especially) evoke such unique patterns and feel out of one basic starting pattern. A lot of this has to do with cymbal choices too, so I encourage this thread to spread out a bit and talk about gear. I really was getting into the old cats on here talking about Gretsch and Ludwig (all the old stuff). I found the remarks about the Bosphorus cymbals to be interesting too. It seems like every time I hear a new recording, I fall in love with the ride sound and want that ride! Problem is, I'm up to wanting about 50 different models of rides now!

I have to agree that the Remo kit seems a bit like a "they give me money to play this" kit, instead of "hey, this is a great vintage bop sound" kit. On the Diana Krall live in Paris DVD, it sounds pretty good, but that seemed to be a large theater with a lot of PA and electronics going on.

Also, this is the only thread that I actually read all the posts that are more than say 10 lines long. Very good stuff.

Is the Wynton "Love Supreme" dvd you guys are mentioning just a video of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra recording? I would like to see it, even if it is contrived. To the comment about Tain playing over the top; maybe he's "contriving" and trying to sound like Elvin? I have to admit, the first time I heard "Acknowledgement" I thought that was the most over the top busy sounding pattern. Of course I know appreciate the pure greatness of Elvin on the entire cd, and I'm slowly discovering other recordings and why this guy was just so great. (Didn't realized Thad Jones was his brother either, so thanks again to this thread!)

jazzgregg

03-30-2006, 09:05 AM

Is the Wynton "Love Supreme" dvd you guys are mentioning just a video of the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra recording? I would like to see it, even if it is contrived. To the comment about Tain playing over the top; maybe he's "contriving" and trying to sound like Elvin? I have to admit, the first time I heard "Acknowledgement" I thought that was the most over the top busy sounding pattern. Of course I know appreciate the pure greatness of Elvin on the entire cd, and I'm slowly discovering other recordings and why this guy was just so great. (Didn't realized Thad Jones was his brother either, so thanks again to this thread!)

Whoa, slow down there man. We are talking about BRANTFORD's version. The Wynton one is as blasphemous as it gets, but I think I mentioned that earlier. Brantford, for better or worse, is the good Marsalis kid, in whatever way you slice it. When Brantford spoke at Berklee, he was actually pretty cool and funny. When I heard that Wynton was going to do ALS, I literally laughed till I nearly peed myself, seriously. Wynton HATED and rallied against Trane and that kind of music until recently! He's such a knob, him of all people doing ALS is really a joke and the epitome of hypocracy

I am glad to hear someone is learning, for a minute there, I was wondering...

G

Stu_Strib

03-30-2006, 09:48 AM

OZjazzer

03-30-2006, 10:12 AM

second - cat bags on Elvin! He said in Modern Drummer - I don't have the issue but It's there - who has it? Check me - he said he came from a school of technique and that was why he couldn't "hear" Elvin. After he said that he tries to pay ELvin a compliment about his phrasing. BS! Elvin eats Hamilton for breakfast - especially uptempos.(and yes I have seen mighty Elvin many times - 40- 50 times...I miss him too)I thought it was disrespectful of Hamilton to slight a master and innovator who was still living like Elvin. SO THAT IS HUGE FOR ME!

Third - he has this "I am an Elder Statesmen of Jazz" attitude. BS - Jack Dejohnette and Roy Haynes and Tootie Heath and Max Roach and Louie Bellson are the elder Statesmen of jazz drumming. His soloing comes off as "listen up here is how it's done and anything else is wrong". Again this all comes from a clinic I was at.

Now you two is that it? Is that the quote that means Jeff Hamilton is crap?

You've got to be joking - he said, or at least you guys claim he said 'he can't hear Elvin'. IS THAT IT? IS THAT WHAT ALL THIS BAGGING IS ALL ABOUT? You have to be joking. Not everybody in the world has to love and adore everything about Elvin Jones! Jeff Hamilton is more than entitled to a view about jazz drummers and drumming - after he is actually an elder statesmen of jazz. Guys Jeff Hamilton can play fast, but just not fast enough for you guys. Would the electric chair be enough or should he be publicly hanged?

And gregg you know I meant Joshua Redman and not Dewey. I'd rather drink muddy water than listen to Dewey (did he ever get that instrument to play in tune?) I guess not.

And now Remo drums are crap as well. Nothing is safe on this thread. All I said was that his rides are very washy!

Stu, no it's the Branford Marsalis Quartet version I am referring to. The Marsalis family must have bought Love Supreme in bulk.

Phil Woods has very strong opinions about 'college graduate' jazz players - I'm beginning to understand his point of view.

fly

03-30-2006, 10:22 AM

Brandford isnt a sell -out, I admire the fact that he has the balls to play A Love SUpreme, and also Sonny Rollin's The Freedom Suite. I actually dig Brandford playing the Sonny stuff more, its pretty tasty swingin trio stuff. I havent seen the DVD though so I cant really say anything about that, but I have the cd Footsteps of our Fathers and theres some great playing on that.

OJAzzer- I cant agree with your comparing of Jeff Ballard, Ari, or Blade to someone like Carl Allen. But yea also the comments about Tain and Blade just dont sit right. Especially about Blade, I think Blades most happening thing is how he listens and reacts to the moment, he can be extremly selfless and supportive, he does a great job of letting the music happen naturally without forcing anything. Tain 's ryhtmic concept also was influential in someone like Ari Hoenig, even though Ari doesnt sound like Tain.

finnhiggins

03-30-2006, 10:40 AM

Hamilton can't play fast? Mmm I can't quote a track right now but I think it's more to do with those trashy over-washy Bos rides he plays, it's very hard to hear any real ride cymbal definition in live situations (but he's not alone with that problem). Trouble is he owns a third of Bos so I guess he's stuck with them.

Nothing wrong with Bos, but the Hammer stuff is way, way at the washy end of even their range. The Turks and so forth are a lot more dry. Personally I quite like the Bosphorus stuff, I'm going to buy a ride (or two) and a set of hats from their line later in the year.

Stu_Strib

03-30-2006, 11:03 AM

Nothing wrong with Bos, but the Hammer stuff is way, way at the washy end of even their range. The Turks and so forth are a lot more dry. Personally I quite like the Bosphorus stuff, I'm going to buy a ride (or two) and a set of hats from their line later in the year.

I was thinking of a Hammer for trashy and a Masters Turk (or just plain turk) for a bone dry one. My K const. now would be the happy medium washy-ish ride. I really would like a 22" Medium const. but man, that's a lot of dough (that's saying a lot given my propensity to not care about prices).

Also, I have a 20" Sabian HH Raw Dry ride that sounds like absolute doo-doo. It sounds like an anvil. I was considering riveting it, to salvage something out of that horrible impulse ebay buy.

OZjazzer

03-30-2006, 12:12 PM

Yes Finn I have nothing against Bos I was simply suggesting that maybe his so called 'inability' to play fast tempos was an impression brought about by his liking for cymbals with lots of wash that therefore lose definition at fast tempos. That's all.

And fly what I also said was 'By the wayI know Blade and Tain are fantastic but hey, even I get caught doing bad gigs. Love Blade with Redman by the way.' Now that is very clear.

And Gregg calling Kenny Washington a Max Roach clone - I'm interested in how you got to that conclusion or did I not understand you?

PS. I don't want to worry you Gregg but we have one more tiny thing in common - we both wish people would actually read the posts before they replied. I did say tiny.

Elvin4ever

03-30-2006, 03:19 PM

Well I'm learning, but I guess I'm just not agreeing. Branford's discography alone makes him susceptible to criticism in my book. He has a ton of dubious pop projects, bordering on the limits of "sell-out" in my book (although I'm not going there all the way, based on the other's opinions in here). Tonight Show, Mo'Better Blues, Sting, Harry Connick Jr., ...I thought this guy was a Jazz musician ;-)

To be fair, he has a ton of jazz projects and I see he played sax on my ever-recurring "Black Codes (from the Underground)"...man I'm glad I have that album..gives me something to fall back on, hehe!
I have to get to work, but wanted to drop a couple of thoughts on the posts that appeared as I slept.

Branford's Love Supreme is a ridiculous project. Again, if he's such a big shot, how about a piece where he demonstrates his own individuality...say Branford's Suite for instance...I know, just a hypothetical. When I heard the first ten seconds of it, I thought I was listening to a Coltrane remaster, until that squirrley tone of his arrived.

I used to like Branford just fine. Actually Stu, I liked the fact that he pursued projects other than jazz. I am not so fast to throw around this sellout label. But, I thought he ruined the Tonight Show. To me, he appeared as if he was too good to go along with the gags and routines. Moreover, his condescending demeanor made his audience uncomfortable. I compared the Branford approach to the high level of entertainment value dished out by Doc Severinson and his band. Now there were 18 of some of the best jazz musicians of their generation, in full awareness of what they were doing on all scores. Branford behaved as if his job would encompass a seminar on jazz awareness. There's nothing wrong with a little entertainment value. Heck, even the Miles aloofness was show business in its own way. What was most dissapointing was the fact that Branford is an engaging and funny guy. Too bad none of that translated to television.

Unfortunately as the years have passed, Branford chooses to drink more Wynton juice than he would have previously accepted. This is unfortunate.

Oz, I got your college graduate crack. But actually, the Woods comments regarded the sameness of college graduate performances based on an embrace of similar teaching methods...not their attitudes.

I like Dewey and Joshua Redman equally. I was reticent to embrace the son as well, until I forced myself to listen to several live performances at numerous venues. IMO, he passes muster. Dewey communicates from a different place, but communicates nonetheless.

The whole Bosphorus cymbal issue is interesting. I need to look into that.

Stu...again with the Black Codes? Geez..............................

I'm cool with these long posts. But, it is funny when someone appears to say, I couldn't be bothered to read the other pages, but here's what I think.

Forum attention spans are different I suppose.

Stu_Strib

03-30-2006, 03:24 PM

Stu...again with the Black Codes? Geez..............................

heh, that was tongue-in-cheek...a little self-depravation (stupid forums and no smileys).

Just pointing out that everytime someone brings up something new (new to me) that I've got it covered in my collection (unknowingly usually). I like this discussion a lot, even if you guys think I'm an ignorant noob.

jazzgregg

03-30-2006, 05:09 PM

Well.
OZ:
No that's not the reason some of us don't like Hamilton since, you know the reasons-just because something else comes to light now, don't go second guessing everything. I just said that was something I didn't like, not a REASON. Face it, there are in fact other people who think Hamilton is jive. Guys like Hamilton can play fast but not CLEAN enough for us, actually. Both Renato and I studied with Ian Froman whose uptempo ride playing was crystal clear no matter the cymbal or the tempo, it was the technique. (Again, if you guys don;t know Fro, check him out, I think I made reccomendations earlier on the thread).

Do you actually think Hamilton is an 'elder statesman of Jazz'? No matter if you like him or don't, think he's the man or not, he's not on a Roy, Louie, Jack or Tootie level, no way. C'mon now, don't be making sh*t up.

This isn't personal against you, don't act like it is.

Ren was just stating Remo drums are crappy and no, nothing IS safe on this thread. Some Bos cymbals are really great though.

E4E is right about the Phil Woods comment, I've heard Phil explain it. Why the attempted personal insult, OZ? If you actually knew the situation at 'a music school', namely, the one we went to, you'd know that us modernists were a minority in the academic Jazz community. We went AGAINST the school, and occasionally, were shunned for it. I risked my ass my last jury because it was so important to me to play a duo with my buddy that I was prepared to accept a failing grade as long as I said what I had to say musically. Music schools don't like that attitude.

Are you serious about not hearing Kenny sounding like Max? What about generalizing and saying Kenny sound's like he lives in the 50's? Man, I'm surprised anyone could have issue with THAT, I can see the Hamilton stuff being more disagreeable.

E4E- I agree about the Brantford stuff- he used to be his own person, but yeah, Wynton passed the juice to him and keeps drinking it! AS I said, I've never heard his ALS and I still refuse to, but it is apparently, not as bad MUSICALLY as one might think. Oh, it's in bad TASTE alright though! lol

I've heard Josh a few times, but never felt the need to force myself to like him, just enough to know I didn't. To each his own. I'm certainly not going to get into a 'Josh is boring', 'No he isn't' thread=)

G

theduke86

03-30-2006, 05:10 PM

I own Branford's Love Supreme DVD and I actually like it- not so much Branford because I'm not a huge fan (although he's a very very good saxophone player) but more because of the band- Tain, Eric Revis (the bassplayer) and Joey Calderazzo on piano are great. Especially Joey, that guy has some beautiful lines. During that recording, I say to myself, "Come on Branford, just dig in man!" his stuff doesn't feel nearly as convicted as Coltrane's. The other guys sure are diggin' it though. The music swings very very hard and Tain is an alien.
In regards to Jeff Hamilton, now that I listen back, I realise that I don't like his uptempo that much. His medium swing is excellent though. I was just listening to The Girl in the Other Room by Diana Krall, and on the title track he plays a massively swinging medium three. It's really great. In fact, I might even transcribe eight bars of his time playing. I could learn something from it. However, I don't understand how ANY jazz drummer of any stripe could lay a diss on Elvin. Elvin's quite possibly the greatest drummer who ever lived. At least, you can make a good argument for it. When one of my old teachers (a fantastic be bop player) saw Trane in the 60's in London, he noticed Buddy Rich and Louis Bellson were in the club too. Garry (my teacher) knew Buddy fairly well (Garry was a ripping young Philly Joe esque player at this point) and Buddy was apparently freaking out over what Elvin was doing. So was Louis. If these two old school dudes could dig Elvin, Jeff Hamilton can dig Elvin. To me, it's not even a matter of opinion. If you don't dig Elvin, you either don't get Elvin, or you're wrong. I'm sorry if that comes off like there's a big swastika branded on my chest but quite simply he was an objectively incredible drummer who changed the way we think about the instrument in a significant fashion.
Regarding Josh Redman, he's a very good player too. I wasn't around when he hit the scene, but it seems to me that he was a little overblown as a player because of Daddy. After seeing Chris Potter and even some of the lesser well known Canadian guys play a lot recently, I've determined that he's a little overrated. Even someone like Mike Murley does more for me than Redman. Murley's not even well known outside of Canada, but he turns my crank more. That being said, I love his albums, they're groovy, he writes some very cool tunes, and plays very well. Just for sheer virtuosity and conviction, give me Chris Potter over Redman, Branford et al any day.

Renato

03-30-2006, 07:09 PM

Oz -
hey bro let me reiterate as I often get too emotional about stuff to write it properly.

My bag with Hamilton's uptempos are his technique. The Hamilton rides actually aren't that washy relative to the Bosphorus line and I own a Hammer ride with rivets so I am informed on that. It's his technique that I have issues with. He is taking the easy way out. When you play uptempos you've got to accent the last note or otherwise it all dissapears. The same idea applies to double strokes. Any old timer or drumcorps cat will tell you that you must accent the second note of a double to be able to make them sound even. Obviously it isn't going to be louder - it just comes out sounding even like this RR-LL-RR-LL instead of Rr-Ll-Rr-Ll etc. Billy Ward talks about it on his great DVD Big Time. Check it out. Also Clayton Cameron talks about it on his brush video as well. I am sure there are more of them out there. Also John Riley really talks about it(we're back to the ride cymbal technique again) in his books. Especially Beyond Bop. You can't just drop the stick and then bounce it. It must be controlled with the fingers and then accent the final note like this RrR RrR - the middle note is more or less a bounce but its proximity to the first note gives it more weight. Ideally you want it to sound like RRR RRR RRR or LLL LLL(if you are left handed). This type of technique is what makes Miles Davis' landmark "Four and More" with the ridiculously talented Tony Williams(age 17-18)unbelieveable. Here he is just a kid and his playing is so dialed in - he is Killing those uptempos and in the fashion of Max Roach(his biggest hero). That is what is being referred to here. Hamilton espoused a faulty technique at the clinic I went to, and in my opinion that is wrong. Its jive. Does that make Hamilton a bad guy. no. Near as I can tell he is a great guy. I like his cymbals(I even have a Bosphorus cymbals sticker on my bumper. Its just this technique issue for me. I don't care what cymbals you use - mushy ride technique is no excuse. Joey Baron uses a 16" ride and sounds good(granted duct tape is his favorite cymbal altering technique). Bill Stewart is a superstar at this....I talked with him about all the stick sound in his ride cymbal technique at the regatta bar once when he was there playing with Larry Goldings' trio. He said while he was at William Patterson he had a very thin old K and had to alter his technique to get more definition so he developed his cupping technique to pull more stick sound out. It can be done. I do it by extendig my thumb past my fulcrum and presto - more stick - try it. That is my thing about uptempos. I'll make a short list of cats who have their(or had)uptempos happening:
Max Roach, Ian Froman, Tony Williams, Gregg Brennan, Art Blakey, Jimmy Cobb, Tootie Heath, Art Taylor, Kenny Clark, Daniel Humair, Jon Christensen, Brian Blade, Tain, Clarence Penn, Kendrick Scott, Terreon Gully, Billy Ward, STeve SMith, Weckl(yes we may not all dig his style but his technique is in place on uptempos), Kenny Washington, Jack Dejohnette, Lenny White, Elvin Jones, Edgar Bateman, Philly Joe Jones, Mel Lewis, Stan Levey, ROY HAYNES, Paul Motian(although he currently tries to play with out technique), Chad Anderson, Billy Drummond, Cindy Blckman, Rashied Ali, Paal Nilssen-Love, Paolo Vinaccia, Ari Hoenig, Jimmy Cobb, Nasheet Waits, Matt Wilson - I am forgetting many many many - but the technique is THE way of doing things.

Now his brush playing is great. I have to give credit where credit is due.

His drum choice - questionable. aren't they paper drums?

OKay - as far as the Elvin thing goes...you don't have to like Elvin. No accounting for taste in this world - some people like Cottage Cheese(As Gallagher so eloquently put it). blech! But I not complaining that he doesn't like Elvin. He personally attacked Elvin. He could have said he didn't dig his sound aesthetically. But no - he bashed Elvin's technique. The cat destroyed bounderies with Coltrane and is on numerous influential albums - his technique is above reproach. Especially considering Hamilton's uptempos. And don't think to play the brush card on me - Elvin was a master at playing brushes - even when he was young - Stu - check this one out - a Tommy Flanagan recording from Scandinavia on Elvin's first tour. It's '57in Stockhom and he plays on a trio reocrding with Tommy Flanagan and Wilbur Little. Here is the crux....Elvin plays only brushes on the whole recording. Don't forget Elvin's hero was Denzil Best(who played with Monk in Harlem at Minton's Playhouse during the birth of Bebop and co-wrote several of Thelonious Monk's biggest tunes with him like "Straight No Chaser" and "Bemsha Swing" and he was considered a master brush player and very influential on Elvin and Max andMany others...oh Elvin has also cited another brush monster...Spencer O'neil as well)Elvin could play brushes, and nobody can play them like he does. I would stare at his hands while he played brushes and try to figure out how his sound was working because he sort of did the opposite of every other brush player I've seen - he mashed the brushes into the head instead of riding lightly on top and yet his sound was light, delicate and hip. Oh while I'm on the topic - some have accused Elvin of not having traditional stuff in place in his playing...namely feathering the bassdrum - which is a Hamilton favorite to harp on - not on Elvin but in general ....and he's right....you should be able to feather(playing the bass very lightly on quarter notes while playing time with sticks or brushes)the bassdrum. Anyway - when I first saw Elvin at the Regatta bar in '97(I had seen him play at the Moscow Jazz Festival in the big band(yes Elvin can play big band too - so forget about that card too)but I first saw him up close in the Regatta Bar and was shocked to see him feather throughout the night. So modern and yet all the trad stuff is in place. Anyway - bagging on Elvin's technique is inconceiveable. I wish Hamilton would explain that one for me as its possible he was misquoted as journalists do from time to time to sensationalize.

The elderstatesmen thing - he's not there yet - he needs to get his uptempos down first!

Marsalis...well I own the Brandford "A Love Supreme" dvd...it was a present. Now bear in mind that "A Love Supreme" was my first jazz cd that I purchased for myself(along with Bill Evan's "Explorations" and Miles Davis' "Nefertiti" on my 22nd birthday...up until then I was into Metal and Rock which reminds me to make a comment about kids and jazz...which I will down below)so that recording is very important to me. Everytime I listen to it it is a very moving experience for me. I was little put off(not nearly as much as hearing about Kenny G over dubbing on Pops!)by them covering the whole thing. One tune wouldn't have been as bad like when Kenny Garrett did it on "Pursuance: The Music OF John Coltrane"...which is an amazing record with Brian Blade KILLING!!! and they did "Pursuance" on that record which is the third movement of the suite Coltrane wrote(if you are really interested in this topic buy Ashley Kahn's "A Love Supreme" book and get the deluxe edition of the cd with the alternate takes with Archie Shepp on the(yes Coltrane had toyed with doing it as a quintet...too bad Eric Dolphy had already passed on - he would have been perfect!)alternate takes...its fascinating.)and Garrett's version was cool. But to do the whole thing? Well when I saw it - I have to admit it was good. and Tain has reasserted himself as a great drummer. He plays great.

But for Wynton to do it.....this guy is all agenda...Jazzgregg is right - he was a leader in the "Trane apostasized from the church of good jazz after "Giant Steps"" and to now do "A Love Supreme" why?? To capitalize on it. Where is Bob Moses - he would have somehting to say about this!!!!! Yeah - Wynton is a strange guy - on the one hand so cool - and on the other...what the *^%&^%? I stand by what I said earlier...he would be way hipper if he'd SHUT UP AND PLAY!

Renato

03-30-2006, 07:10 PM

okay Ozman - on the school thing....as far as Phil Woods goes...well that cat has an ax to grind...I mean he is still mad because no one gives him credit for "inventing" the nordic jazz scene in the late 60's...I mean why not...after all there is no way Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dexter Gordon, Johnny Griffin, Bill Evans, Steve Kuhn and numerous others who went there way before he did could have possibly influenced it at all. And anyway he studied at the Manhattan School Of Music for a semester and several at Julliard. not to mention teaching and doing clinics for these "horrible music school graduates"....if he hates them or dislikes them or finds fault in them...he seems to have no problem taking their money to teach them. A bit of a paradox.

The music school thing...yeah as a graduate of Berklee I can say what Jazzgregg said...it's no friggin' picnic. I had one teacher who will remain unnamed - but every week in his drum lab it was "bash Renato time" because I wanted to have my own sound. I mean it is a political stuggle as well. Yeah when the Marsalis's were there they added to it.....Wynton shot his mouth off about Racism at the school(the same one that paid him to be there)and Delfeayo was a big know-it-all - people are still recounting stories of him exploding and walking out of class if anyone said anything about his stuff...because you know after all he was perfect and didn't need Berklee...wait - then why did he go???? I will say this though - Berklee was rough...it was a pressure cooker...I thought I was gonna have a heart attack trying to get my senior recital ready and nearly did when it turned out bad....I was a jazz composition student and my compositions were filled with many things besides the Duke and GIl Evans style big band arranging I had learned. namely serialism, extended techniques, alternative instrumentation, and various other things in an effort to capture the sounds on my head. I didn't get any sleep for 5 years. Boston is tough - if I had stayed at home and gone to my local school it would have been easier as I wouldn't have had New York pros kicking me in the butt. But It was worth it. There is a difference in my opinion. But the schcool will only work if the student wants to pay the price. Now many bash berklee but here is a short list of current people who went there who are doing well...John Mayer(yeah he was there while I was there but his current opinions and stories about his Berklee days don't ring true with what really went down, Alf Clausen, the guy who wrote the Lord Of the Rings music...I forget his name, Kurt Rosenwinkle, Ben Perowski, Jamey Haddad, Kenny Werner, Ian Froman, Kendrick Scott, Brandford, Wynton, Jason, Delfeayo(all but Ellis jr. who had the sense to go to medical school at John Hopkins and was there with the rhythm guitarist in my band(yeah our rhythm guy is obsessed with Freddie Green and a brain doctor)...the stories he tells about the marsalis clan kill me!!!,Jim Black, Chris Speed, Skuli Sverrison, Joey Baron, John Scofield, Teri Lyne Carrington, Cindy Blackman, Dan Reiser, Abe Laboriel jr., Vinnie Colauta, Bill Frisell, and ofcourse Tain Watts. I am forgetting tons..but the proof is in the pudding as they say. It may not be for everyone but I loved it...I studied with Ian Froman, Jamey Haddad, Ken Pullig and SKip Hadden and I learned so much from these guys. It was amazing.

okay Kids and Jazz...I say the watered down crap is the worst way to present jazz to kids. Why? Most of them listen to rap or rock(or any of the multitude of subgenres)and they really can smell a watered down version of something a mile away. I mean when I was a teenager my jazz teachers were always telling me to listen to the Yellowjackets, Chick Corea's Acoustik and Elektric bands, and various other disco whitepants quiche rock. WHy didn't they say "hey dig this Miles Davis cat, he was heavy?" I would have responded to the real deal. I know because when I finally heard it - it was immediate - no going back. I felt as if a whole world of music was hidden from me by people who should have known better. I also know it is true with my own students - I teach 30-50 students and have been at it for a while now and everytime one of them hears me play certain stuff and asks "where did you get that?" I smile and recommend a few things...and without exception they all comeback wide eyed and ready to hit it. Here is how it usually goes down...I play some lick I copped and morphed into my own thing(or tried to cop or tried to morph)and they say "what's That"...I tell them well go get the Miles Davis record "Miles Smiles"(or "Nefertiti") and then they come back and say they are ready to learn jazz. Now many say starting with Tony is all wrong. You need to examine the early guys. I wholeheartedly agree but it seems to me that kids who dig aggressive music need to hear aggressive jazz for that world to open up to them. I have a 100% success rate. Once these kids open their minds Bill Evans and Ahmad Jamal are cool too. So no, I think watering it down with cheesy Kenny G crap is wrong, as is thinking they must hear bebop or big band first. Obviously that is what they will have to learn first but getting their minds open is tough and Miles and Trane are perfect for that.

Okay rant over....sorry its so long. enjoy

Drad-dog

03-30-2006, 08:04 PM

Bos cymbals, while being as washy as an incredibly washy thing are no damn excuse for Hamilton's TECHNIQUE to playing fast! He'd sound like mush on a kitchen table with that approach.

Okay, jazzgregg. I have to call you out on this. Renato too. If you don't like Hamilton's style, so be it. There IS no accounting for taste. Calling him out for being a copycat: a legitimate critisizm. But you guys trash talking his technique sounds a little like sour grapes. What makes you better judges of his technique than Ray Brown, Woody Herman or Monty Alexander? (Notice I left out Krall). Really- he's good enough for those guys but not for you? Respectfully, you guys harping on his technique sounds petty. Don't like it? Nothing to argue about there. Saying "he needs to get his uptempos down"- that's trash talk from even younger statesman than he is.

Also, I don't have that issue of Modern Drummer with me either, but I read the article and did not perceive his comments as a slight to Elvin. I thought he meant that learning to appreciate Elvin was a difficult step in his developement. That's not slighting Elvin at all.

jazzgregg

03-30-2006, 08:30 PM

Okay, jazzgregg. I have to call you out on this. Renato too. If you don't like Hamilton's style, so be it. There IS no accounting for taste. Calling him out for being a copycat: a legitimate critisizm. But you guys trash talking his technique sounds a little like sour grapes. What makes you better judges of his technique than Ray Brown, Woody Herman or Monty Alexander? (Notice I left out Krall). Really- he's good enough for those guys but not for you? Respectfully, you guys harping on his technique sounds petty. Don't like it? Nothing to argue about there. Saying "he needs to get his uptempos down"- that's trash talk from even younger statesman than he is.

Also, I don't have that issue of Modern Drummer with me either, but I read the article and did not perceive his comments as a slight to Elvin. I thought he meant that learning to appreciate Elvin was a difficult step in his developement. That's not slighting Elvin at all.

I have to go teach, but I do want to quickly clarify this. When I said 'technique' I don't mean it in a drummer way, I mean as in 'approach', his 'way' of playing uptempos. As in, I have this 'technique' to making ravioli does not mean I have ravioli-making chops. I was in no way criticizing chops, talking about chops and THAT kind of technique is silly (as if that's a surprise coming from me). Sorry for the confusion.
Cool?

G

BellsOfRhymney

03-30-2006, 09:34 PM

Now his brush playing is great. I have to give credit where credit is due.
I like when he uses sticks. His drum solo ...I get high from it.

Visitor13

03-30-2006, 10:22 PM

Awesome thread, especially for someone who is just getting into jazz, like me.

Some additional modern jazz drummer recommendations for Stu Strib - how about Luther Grey? His work with guitarist Joe Morris and double bassist Timo Shanko on their album 'Age of Everything' is beautiful.

Jazzgregg's recommendations (Susie Ibarra, Tom Rainey, Eric Echampard etc.) are wicked, too.

OZjazzer

03-30-2006, 10:36 PM

Are we having fun? I am. First, the Phil Woods thing was a my pathetic attempt at humour after all you two did keep dropping Berklee on us. No offence intended.

Branford's DVD? Seeems the jury is out on that. I find it somehow unpleasanty artificial - I guess it must be me.

Fast cymbal technique? Ever since I heard Ron Jefferson swing his bum off with Les McCann in the 60's using straight fours on the ride I've never bothered (with the da ding bit) at really fast tempos. I admit I'm a definition freak, I don't like over mushy cymbals at all. By the way, the guys I play with love the way you can really lift a band doing that four thing. But remember I am not only ancient, I picked up all my (limited) drumming knowledge on the gig or simply by listening and talking. I have however been lucky to see many of the jazz legends when they were at the top of their game. As I said before, my view of some of the people we're discussing comes from a very different direction to you guys. At your age I would have given both my arms to have been able to do the Berklee thing but alas .... (reaches for Kleenex).

Anyway I love this discussion but I really think someone should make an attempt to nail down the MD Hamilton/Elvin comment because as it stands the so-called damning quote is muddled at best. Obviously nobody here actually bought the entire MD library on CD - pity.

Jazgregg, you didn't even mention my bit on Gretsch players earlier. I guess in time I'll get over it.

Renato I still believe listeners usually come to jazz by way of commercial jazz not hardcore. And can we please stop using Kenny G as an example he's truly awful, lets go back to Krall, Cullum, Monheit, Cinotti etc.

Drad-dog

03-30-2006, 11:09 PM

I have to go teach, but I do want to quickly clarify this. When I said 'technique' I don't mean it in a drummer way, I mean as in 'approach', his 'way' of playing uptempos. As in, I have this 'technique' to making ravioli does not mean I have ravioli-making chops. I was in no way criticizing chops, talking about chops and THAT kind of technique is silly (as if that's a surprise coming from me). Sorry for the confusion.
Cool?

G

Very cool. Sorry I didn't read you right!

Drad

Elvin4ever

03-30-2006, 11:36 PM

Renato I still believe listeners usually come to jazz by way of commercial jazz not hardcore.
Uniquely enough (at least in the United States and Canada) over 80% of the jazz listening public arrives via participation or listenership of a school ensemble. A 1997 (I think) study insisted that the overwhelming majority of school big band participants remain at least interested in jazz throughout their lives... a percentage that increases exponentially if participation extends anywhere from the senior year of high school through college graduation.

Of far greater significance were the associates of school performers who attended jazz events where the primary subject created at least a version of jazz. Said associates developed enough of an increased awareness to classify jazz as one of their three desired musical genres. In instances involving these friends, relatives and colleagues, said awareness was elevated as much as three fold. These are very significant numbers, and from an anecdotal perspective, I find them probably in the ballpark.

Although many of these often (very) young North Americans participate in school ensembles with less than qualitive repertoire (TV themes, pop adaptations etc), a sizable number of 15 year olds experience the music of Woody Herman and Basie as their entrance into jazz...not a bad beginning at all.

I think others forget that even in these marching band obsessed times, North American schools are homes to over a quarter million jazz ensembles. I am certain that many in other locales cannot fathom such numbers.

T.L.

03-30-2006, 11:39 PM

OZJazzer....

I'm with you on the quarter notes on the ride thing.... It really is great for locking in with the bass -- I don't hear too many guys playing like that (Gadd does it a lot, of course).....One guy that I think everyone needs to hear for this type of playing is Steve Williams (Shirley Horn's drummer) -- just an incredibly tasty player, who plays a medium swing groove as well as anyone. He's based out of Seattle -- check him out.

T.L.

03-30-2006, 11:46 PM

OZJazzer....

I actually do own the MD archive DVD....If someone can tell me the year and issue of the infamous Hamilton interview I'd love to check it out and give you guys an exact quote.

My gut reaction to the issue is that Hamilton is probably saying that he didn't get Elvin (thus, we don't here much of a Jones influence in Jeff's playing).

Not really a criticism of Jones; kind of like when some sax players say they dig Coltrane or Michael Brecker, but that they just don't always "hear" what those guys are doing and thus their influence doesn't come through in their playing the same way that, say, Bird's does.

jordanz

03-30-2006, 11:47 PM

FYI

I just got "Thad Jones and Mel Lewis - Live at the Village Vanguard" recorded 1967. Holy Sheet! What a band. Great charts too. Mel sounds incredible. Add it to your collection folks.

P.S. I still dig Jeff Hamilton ;)

Guillermo

03-31-2006, 02:59 AM

Oh fast riding... I actually like two drummers the most at that.

Billy Higgins comes on top for me... because his technique, although not the cleanest, had this tension going... all notes somewhat close dynamically, but not quite as to sound dead even, yet somehow grooving as be balanced slight tempo shifts musically with those dynamic shifts... just beautiful, so evocative... and with a BIG sound, almost on the verge of opening up... something that him an Elvin seemed to be as most naturally gifted to do.

Second is Peter Erskine, who I like for the exact opposite reason, the most incredibly precise and perfect fast riding... and somehow, the SOFTEST he goes, the CLEANER and FASTER he seems to go too... unvelievable, suchg tight articulation going on WHILE playing around, I'll have to really focus all my attention on the RIDE ALONE, just to come anywhere near, but never in a million years... I saw him once and actually being there to hear it, that's when you go "that man's that cymbal is moving up and down the exact number of milimeters on every stroke"... ha, ha, ha

jack DeJohnette is a mix of the two.

OZjazzer

03-31-2006, 03:45 AM

jazzgregg

03-31-2006, 04:55 AM

Ok, so we're still going then.
OZ, I went out of my way to NOT mention Berklee until Renato outed me (thanks alot, buddy=).
If you don't like mushy cymbals and are a definition freak, what's with the pro Hamilton approach? I recognize that you know you're stuff, but are not, as you said, coming form the same place as I am.
As for the MD/Hamilton comment, I don't really care, it's not the crux of my view at all, nor does it have any effect whatsoever on what I've been saying. I just think it's funny and not at all surprising that he'd say that kind of crap.

Which part on the Gretsch drums thing? I think I said something about something about it, but maybe I forgot to say what I thought (I'm sure I had an opinion). On that note, how about the Kenny clone issue, the Mel being a distincly innovative and groundbreaking drummer and the 'Blues for Steph'(I feel like I know her now)/'Groove Merchant' Hamilton cloning?=)

For my experience, E4E is closer to the mark when it comes to introductions to Jazz. People that listen to pulp like all those you mentioned, OZ will continue to do so, sadly. Nobody listend to Monheit's first CD and went' Wow- I need to hear more from this BACKING band of Kenny Barron, Ron Carter' etc...lol

T.L- a bit of a correction on what you said, I think=). You said there isn't much Elvin in Hamilton's playing. I think maybe what you meant to say was that Hamilton acts like Elvin never existed, no?

JordanZ- Glad you picked up that Thad/Mel album! Hoooray!!! I'm happy for you and that band is SCARY. Thads arrangements, very tight band, swing their asses off and then some. ALL of their stuff together is is good. There have been some "re-issues" on the crappy 'Laserlight' label that, while having poor sound quality, offer up Thad and Mel for a low, low price!

Guillermo, I agree with Higgins and I will say that Erskine is very precise in his uptempo ride playing. Jack is great at everything, in case anyone was wondering. I'll mention someone no one has heard, guarenteed (if you do and can prove it, I will actually give you a prize), Tony Rabeson. He's an uptempo master from Madagascar (living in France) and just a beautiful, deep player. His work with Henri Texier is some of my favorite by any musician ever. By the way, thanks so much for the props, Ren, I got my uptempo stuff mosty from Rabeson.

There are a number of things on this thread that now just fly by without comment! I want everyone to be accountable for everything they say, not just me, dammit-lol! OZ, please let me know what the Gretsch thing was about, PM or repost or whatever, I really would like to answer it.

Gregg

OZjazzer

03-31-2006, 07:31 AM

Gregg. Not that it matters but I did say I'm 'not a big Hamilton fan' early in the piece I just thought he didn't deserve being blamed for everything from the black plague to shop lifting at Mel's place. I have never liked his cymbal sound but obviously he does and I guess they sell a lot of Bos 'Jeff Hamiltons' on the strength of it. His big band playing is too complicated fo me as well, so I'm really not a fan but I certainly don't dislike him either. Blues for Steph is nothing more than a bit of good clean fun with an obvious groove.
When I think about it there are so many fine drummers each covering there own patch of jazz turf and here we are discussing Jeff Hamilton! There are so many new guys that I often get confused and run back to my absolute favourites, Higgins, Philly, Fournier, Cobb, early Tony, Mel, Thigpen, Haynes, Alan Dawson, Colin Bailey, Louis Hayes, Grady Tate and JD. I am not into showoff drummers at all therefore I have never liked Rich (yes Rich fans I know he's the greatest XYZ that ever lived ... etc etc ) or the current crop of spead freaks Weckl, Lang etc. Drum solos bore me to tears. Never listen to them and never play them. Always thought jazz drummers were there to support the band not dominate it. Enough already.

I was going to suggest a track to Stu that sums up just about everything I like about jazz in the hope that it inspires him as it does me. The track is 'All of you' by the Hancock/Williams/Carter/Coleman version of the Miles Davis quintet but it's NOT the one off 'Four and More' it's from the lesser known 'Miles Davis in Europe' recorded live at Antibe.

Davis had been playing this song for years with the Philly/Garland/Coltrane and his sparse muted statement of the tune owes much to Ahmad Jamal. This version has the teenage Tony Williams at his frightening best, pushing, prodding and almost daring everyone to go that bit further. The groove near the end of Hancock's solo with Williams hitting a simple one in the bar accent as Carter dives down low is unforgettable. Stu you can probably find this single track in iTunes. It has my personal money back enjoyment guarantee.

Gregg, the Gretsch thing was simply this:

Yes the Gretsch thing is interesting. Back in the early 60's when I was would wait for my Downbeat fix every month the Gretsch ads created a lot of interest, because in Australia, there was very little choice, it was Gretsch or Ludwig with the odd Slingerland and Leedy thrown in.

Gretsch had all the bop players as I recall, Blakey, Chico Hamilton, Connie Kay, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Art Taylor, Kenny Clarke. Mel certainly played Gretsch and I think Jake Hanna (then with Herman) did as well. Not sure about Stan Levey. Rich was Slingerland (not that I cared, I was never a fan) and from memory a lot of the West Coast guys like Shelley played Leedy.

Stu_Strib

03-31-2006, 09:13 AM

Oz -- the tune isn't on iTunes, but amazon.com has the whole album (they have all three of the Europe live albums, their reviewer had the Antibe one as the weakest of the three)

As for Jazz in schools...

I think many of the kids get started in watered down jazz because of the quality of instructor they have. Perhaps the director likes Yellowjackets and Four-Play and Spyro Gyra? I think it is a shame that even when the instructor is more hard core jazz, they still pull out the same non-swingin' standards. Just last night at a drum clinic, the local British Grammar School kids played about 5 tunes, only 2 of which swung. They played the ubiquitous Weather Report (which is odd, since I played that in high school jazz band 20 years ago, I thought maybe kids nowdays would have a new non-swing standard).

I WISH more band directors would push more Miles and Coltrane and, well, just standards in general. I remember one year at Jazz competition at States (Oregon, mid 80s) we were the only band that played all swing tunes (well, and a bossa). The other lesser developed music programs were playing tunes like "Watermelon Man", "Mercy, Mercy, Mercy", "Theme from Rocky" and "Little Shop of Horrors". The judges started sounding like broken records telling the other bands they needed to do more swing tunes. Unfortunately, most band directors took that criticism as meaning to add a Basie tune or something similar (not that that is bad, but it still leaves out bop and hard bop, which is what I think the judges would like to have heard).

Which brings up another thesis on why the kids are 'eased' into jazz...Jazz simply isn't easy to play correctly, especially with little to no experience, like most these kids have. I think a lot of the pop-jazz stuff (cullum, buble, et.al) has a lot of 2 & 4 backbeat, so that is an easy transition for the kids.

Also, as drummers, kids get the short end of the stick a lot. Last night, the two kids were decent drummers but both of them stomped the bass on all 4 beats, and neither of them knew how to play a bossa with a proper clave. I wish we had time to go talk to them and give them simple feedback, such as "don't stomp the bass drum, feather it..it is ok not to even play the bass drum" and "your samba/bossa's need to have a steady 16th/8th pattern on the bass drum, and you should use a simple 2:3 or 3:2 clave". Their band director should be doing these things, but he probably isn't a drummer, and that is a shame to the kids.

Personally, had I finished my Music Ed degree, I would transition kids into jazz with hard bop. It is pretty much the amalgamation of soul/blues/funk/r&b (at that time) into a very cool and swung feel! I think this is why I like it so much today. It isn't off-putting in its technicality either, and it isn't as disconnected to the untrained ear.

finnhiggins

03-31-2006, 12:38 PM

Drum solos bore me to tears. Never listen to them and never play them.

Oh thank god, I thought I was alone.

I hate drum soloing. As far as I'm concerned if you took every good drum solo ever and put them together you'd have a two-and-a-half-minute piece of acceptable music. Versus hour after hour of tedium, flailing, thrashing and... nothing.

If I wanted to solo incessantly I'd have stuck with guitar... That's one of the things I really like about drums - it makes the reality that music is better when people interact well plain as day.

Elvin4ever

03-31-2006, 04:11 PM

As for Jazz in schools...

I think many of the kids get started in watered down jazz because of the quality of instructor they have. Perhaps the director likes Yellowjackets and Four-Play and Spyro Gyra? I think it is a shame that even when the instructor is more hard core jazz, they still pull out the same non-swingin' standards.

Unfortunately, most band directors took that criticism as meaning to add a Basie tune or something similar (not that that is bad, but it still leaves out bop and hard bop, which is what I think the judges would like to have heard).

Which brings up another thesis on why the kids are 'eased' into jazz...Jazz simply isn't easy to play correctly, especially with little to no experience, like most these kids have. I think a lot of the pop-jazz stuff (cullum, buble, et.al) has a lot of 2 & 4 backbeat, so that is an easy transition for the kids.

Personally, had I finished my Music Ed degree, I would transition kids into jazz with hard bop. It is pretty much the amalgamation of soul/blues/funk/r&b (at that time) into a very cool and swung feel! I think this is why I like it so much today. It isn't off-putting in its technicality either, and it isn't as disconnected to the untrained ear.
Many band directors who once demonstrated the time and the dedication to dig in and present quality offerings are now tied down to their all consuming marching band programs. In fact, many American school principals and boards require their band programs to attend marching competitions they are not prepared for, and/or cannot afford. This requires directors to assemble large band parent organizations to raise tremendous sums of money. Said parents then unfortunately acquire stakes in the program's direction, that (more often than not) do not include jazz. Jazz time then falls between the cracks...offered as a when I have time ensemble, with the substantially watered down music you describe. This is unfortunate, due to the possible validity of the music preference research already discussed.

Actually the initial implementation of Basie is a decent idea, and many practical/ historical lessons are absorbed. But yes, these charts are not intended as an ends, but often do end up that way.

The hard bop entry concept is a solid premise and is used in many quality programs for the reasons you describe.

jazzgregg

03-31-2006, 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by OZjazzer
Yes the Gretsch thing is interesting. Back in the early 60's when I was would wait for my Downbeat fix every month the Gretsch ads created a lot of interest, because in Australia, there was very little choice, it was Gretsch or Ludwig with the odd Slingerland and Leedy thrown in.

Gretsch had all the bop players as I recall, Blakey, Chico Hamilton, Connie Kay, Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Jimmy Cobb, Art Taylor, Kenny Clarke. Mel certainly played Gretsch and I think Jake Hanna (then with Herman) did as well. Not sure about Stan Levey. Rich was Slingerland (not that I cared, I was never a fan) and from memory a lot of the West Coast guys like Shelley played Leedy.

Shelly played Grestch for a bit early in his career, so did Jake. Levey didn't but a couple of older swing cats did including Don Lamond, Dave Tough and Louie Bellson (for a while).

Why have people immediately jumped to the aid of Hamilton (even people who aren't really fans) while lukewarmly objecting to my opinions on Nash and ignoring what I said about Kenny? Seriously, if you all already agree, great, less typing for me....

Just curious,
G

Stu_Strib

03-31-2006, 07:31 PM

In fact, many American school principals and boards require their band programs to attend marching competitions they are not prepared for, and/or cannot afford. This requires directors to assemble large band parent organizations to raise tremendous sums of money.

It was my experience that Marching Band was during football season, and Jazz Band was the rest of the year (with the 'pep' band doubling as the jazz band for basketball season). I went to a really good arts school though, so I'm sure many schools focus all on marching and that is all they have time for like you said.

Stu_Strib

03-31-2006, 07:33 PM

I need some help with a good standard Mingus record recommendation. I picked up "The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady". I guess I'm looking for something a little more straightforward? This is an odd cd for sure. Maybe it will grow on me?

Stu

Elvin4ever

03-31-2006, 07:58 PM

It was my experience that Marching Band was during football season, and Jazz Band was the rest of the year (with the 'pep' band doubling as the jazz band for basketball season). I went to a really good arts school though, so I'm sure many schools focus all on marching and that is all they have time for like you said.
These days, marching season never entirely goes away, even in diversified programs. Two weeks after the last fall competition is the start of winter guard, and many drumlines begin working on the fall show as early as April and rehearse diligently throughout the summer, while continuing to work on concert band music and solo/ensemble. Then there is freshman band camp, followed by band camp. Fall show planning often begins a month or so after the last fall marching competition. These days, many programs attend from four to seven of these events, while continuing other activities. Also, at some time, the Veterans's Day, Christmas Concert and the Graduation Ceremony is squeezed in.

Fundraising for the fall show begins early since an award winning show (the kind that brings in the money for the following season's show) can cost upwards of $25,000 to $50,000. These are no longer considered exhorbitant amounts, and many shows cost far more.

This prompts band directors to mange their time more like CEOs of small corporations.

Twenty years ago, most of these programs would have added into the curriculum a jazz ensemble that met every day, during normal classroom hours. In today's climate, this is seldom possible considering the aforementioned time constraints.

This is why school jazz ensembles are of a lower quality than in the previous era. Yet, they remain significant because of their influence on music preferences in later years.

Yes, you are correct. You were very fortunate to attend a school with a different agenda, and said agenda is quite rare these days.