THE "BIG" JAZZ THREAD

[Guillermo]

Adding on...

Paul Motian Trio... I really like his wearly work with Paul Bley and his newer albums too, amazing production... stuff like "2000 + One" and "Monk & Powell"
Check out Jan Garbarek... his work with Keith Jarrett and also his ensemble work.
Following on the Texier lead... check out the trio Carnet Des Routes.
Thomas Stanko
Charlie Haden's Liberation Music Orchestra
Charles Mingus of course...
And do check out Carla Bely... I specially like "Social Studies", "Big Band Theory"... well, practically anything from her.

You don't appreciate the avant garde as much... sure... you must start from the beginning... you simply cannot go "Albert Ayler" on your ear... check out Celcil Taylor's early records... and stuff like Ornette Coleman's "The shape of jazz to come".

[jazzgregg]

Adding on...

Paul Motian Trio... I really like his wearly work with Paul Bley and his newer albums too, amazing production... stuff like "2000 + One" and "Monk & Powell"
Check out Jan Garbarek... his work with Keith Jarrett and also his ensemble work.
Following on the Texier lead... check out the trio Carnet Des Routes.
Thomas Stanko
Charlie Haden's Liberation Music Orchestra
Charles Mingus of course...
And do check out Carla Bely... I specially like "Social Studies", "Big Band Theory"... well, practically anything from her.

You don't appreciate the avant garde as much... sure... you must start from the beginning... you simply cannot go "Albert Ayler" on your ear... check out Celcil Taylor's early records... and stuff like Ornette Coleman's "The shape of jazz to come".

I stayed away from the ECM stuff and Paul Motian on purpose (it was hard as I love that stuff), though I somehow eliminated my man Paul Bley (also try Haden's Montreal Tapes with Bley and Motian as well as 'Memoirs'). I agree about the Avant Garde though. On the other hand, I wouldn't have him start with Cecil since he's a (self professed=) saxy kinda-guy. Try more Lloyd and Dolphy, IMO, as a stepping stone.

Nice as always, Guillermo.

G

[T.L.]

OzJazzer,
I'll check out those artists/albums that you mentioned. I forgot to mention Oscar Peterson (among many others) in my response to Gregg........I agree with you for sure -- his stuff really grooves....Thigpen's another of my favourites and there's of course lots of him on Oscar's albums. One of my favourite albums to play along with is the Oscar Peterson Trio with Stan Getz, which of course has no drums (great album!!).

Guillermo,
I'll take your suggestions and ease my way into the avante garde territory.

Gregg,
It's funny that you mentioned Motian in your last post, because I spent several hours yesterday listening to Bill Evans' Sunday at the Village Vanguard and Waltz for Debby -- brilliant stuff. When we talk about drummers who have their own voice on the instrument Motian definitely stands out.............and Scott Lafaro on bass on those albums -- what a unique player he was -- one can only wonder what he could have done if he'd lived past 25 years (ranks right up there with Clifford Brown as a guy that we lost who was destined for greatness on an even bigger scale)....very sad.

[jazzgregg]

OzJazzer,
I'll check out those artists/albums that you mentioned. I forgot to mention Oscar Peterson (among many others) in my response to Gregg........I agree with you for sure -- his stuff really grooves....Thigpen's another of my favourites and there's of course lots of him on Oscar's albums. One of my favourite albums to play along with is the Oscar Peterson Trio with Stan Getz, which of course has no drums (great album!!).

Guillermo,
I'll take your suggestions and ease my way into the avante garde territory.

Gregg,
It's funny that you mentioned Motian in your last post, because I spent several hours yesterday listening to Bill Evans' Sunday at the Village Vanguard and Waltz for Debby -- brilliant stuff. When we talk about drummers who have their own voice on the instrument Motian definitely stands out.............and Scott Lafaro on bass on those albums -- what a unique player he was -- one can only wonder what he could have done if he'd lived past 25 years (ranks right up there with Clifford Brown as a guy that we lost who was destined for greatness on an even bigger scale)....very sad.


You're quite right about LaFaro and Brown (the anniversary of his death just passed). Sad indeed.

What's actually funny, is that when I think of Motian (who is one of my favories and a big huge influence), I think of the later stuff- the Jarrett Impulse stuff with Redman and Haden, his own stuff, etc. Big discography with many various aspects of his playing showcased throughout his career.. Yeah, I first heard him with Evans and I love that stuff very much but now he's moved on so much, it seems like so long ago when I think of him. Something like Charles Lloyd then and now.

Thanks to you, I think I'll revisit some Evans stuff! All of that trio stuff is brilliant (I'd also add that Trio '64 with Peacock is brilliant too for the post LaFaro stuff, but no one seems to really agree, including Motian!).

Funny you mention Oscar in the same post. Being Canadian, we have 2 big piano exports- Oscar and Paul Bley. They could scarecely be more different. I was actually having this conversation the other day with a buddy. With Oscar it was the "Oscar Show', whereas with Bill, it was the whole trio. I'm not saying one is better than the other, only that they are on 2 ends of the spectrum when it comes to Jazz piano! (Furthermore, Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen are two very important and swinging sidemen!).

So what's the deal, T.L? What have you went for!? Keep us posted.

G

[OZjazzer]

Yes Oscar is always an interesting guy to talk about. No doubt he's been a huge influence for a long time now without being an innovator like Evans, Monk etc. I think OP just had that huge technique and fabulous feel which meant he couldn't be ignored. However his actual style, and chord voicings stayed pretty much the same right through. Being a Canadian I also think he used his vast technique to kind of blast his way onto the US jazz scene early in the piece.

I don't think the Americans had never heard anything like OP before, or since. You're right Gregg his trios are very much Oscar plus bass player and drummer simply because OP is such a complete package. Of course Brown and Thigpen (or earlier, guitarist Herb Ellis) filled that role better than most.

Some of his longer live music is so exciting, with that stomping, really hard 4 feel being quite irresistable. Quite a few of the German recordings were nice too, simply because he laid back more, and didn't let the fingers run away with the song.

One more thing that I like about OP is his determination to stay 'Canadian'. He could have so easily lost that identity but really made sure he didn't.

Evans? If he did nothing else but play 'My foolish heart' the way he did on the Village Vangard disc he would still be one of my greats. Everytime I hear those first few delicate notes from Evans with LaFaro agonising over which bass note he is going to play under this magical playing, I am just knocked out. Life changing music.

[T.L.]

Hey guys.......

Just a little update on some of your suggestions that I've checked out:

Gregg.......I got Elvin's "Dear John C." and "Earth Jones" and "Elvin!".............Nice stuff -- Elvin sounds great as usual................I've got some work to do to put a dent into that list of suggestions you gave me (thanks again!).

OzJazzer.......I got some more Amhad Jamal (I had a couple of his albums already but checked out some more, as per your suggestion..........I can see why Miles was such a fan............I already had that Cannonball album that you suggested -- you're right -- it's excellent!

Guillaermo......I've downloaded some Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman -- haven't had a chance to give them a good listen yet, but will this weekend.

P.S. My Napster program crashed the other day and I was without my library of tracks and playlist for most of the week, so I haven't had a chance to listen to as much as I wanted -- this weekend I'll do some serious listening though -- I'll keep you guys posted.

T.

[DWDrummer]

Manyard Ferguson is still in the game.. he is absolutely nuts on the trumpet.... he leads a pretty good big band.. anyone know who I'm talking about... props

[jazzgregg]

Hey guys.......

Just a little update on some of your suggestions that I've checked out:

Gregg.......I got Elvin's "Dear John C." and "Earth Jones" and "Elvin!".............Nice stuff -- Elvin sounds great as usual................I've got some work to do to put a dent into that list of suggestions you gave me (thanks again!).

OzJazzer.......I got some more Amhad Jamal (I had a couple of his albums already but checked out some more, as per your suggestion..........I can see why Miles was such a fan............I already had that Cannonball album that you suggested -- you're right -- it's excellent!

Guillaermo......I've downloaded some Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman -- haven't had a chance to give them a good listen yet, but will this weekend.

P.S. My Napster program crashed the other day and I was without my library of tracks and playlist for most of the week, so I haven't had a chance to listen to as much as I wanted -- this weekend I'll do some serious listening though -- I'll keep you guys posted.

T.


TL,
Glad you're getting some new stuff- good picks too. I'm with Guillermo though, ease into the out stuff. Ornette isn't really out,so I'd start with him, lots of absolutely brilliant albums. Cecil can be out, depending on the album. Don't forget Dolphy for the transition into the wierder stuff.

What Jamal did you get? If it isn't, you should get 'Live at The Pershing' and the double set, 'Live across America' or something like that (too lazy to go look). All Jamal's old stuff is great and Vernell is a master!

Enjoy and keep it up!,
G

[finnhiggins]

Right, thread revive time! Not on principle, of course, I just have something to kick off.

This all comes from the news that there's a Secret Chiefs 3 disc for Zorn playing Masada due for around May next year. Personally I'm really quite excited about all this because I'm a massive fan of both Masada and SC3, but it kind of set me thinking that maybe the people in the thread might have some views on the matter of Zorn's quite regular approach of taking ostentiably jazzy material (the Masada songbook) and getting bands are quite decidedly not jazz (Fantomas etc) or at the very least not very jazzy sounding (the first Bar Kokhba record, Zahava Seewald etc) to perform it.

There's been discussion of the whole pop-jazz arranged phenomenon here before. But the direction that Zorn takes it is quite arguably nothing resembling pop-jazz. I suppose the issue I'm after here is what you all think of the idea of taking material originally structured for jazz performance and then building entirely different musics on it.

For me this actually seems moderately exciting in that it's almost a step back to before the grand (and I'd argue failed) fusion experiment and revisiting the same kind of grand concept in a new and possibly more musically promising way. Is there a future in this?

I know quite a few jazz students who certainly seem to appreciate and play both jazz and more contemporary rock/pop styles yet who utterly reject fusion and will not touch it with a barge pole. So when they gig it's either in an entirely backwards-looking manner as jazz players or it's as contemporary rock musicians. Is another concerted stab at a fusion of the two possible in coming years, with a deliberate eye to forgetting the last time?

[theduke86]

Short answer, Finn, is... yes. I think, anyways. I was recently watching a series of Leonard Bernstein lectures and he spoke of a coming wave of neo-eclecticism in art music coming- this was in the seventies. If you look at the groups who are leading jazz right now, like Chris Potter and Brad Mehldau especially, they're inserting many aspects of modern music into their jazz performances. When I recently saw Potter with his electric band, I heard a little bit of everything, from drum 'n bass to Joni Mitchell to Radiohead to Dennis Chambers(in Nate Smith's playing that night). On the recent Meldhau album, he covers the Radiohead tune "Knives Out" in drum and bass form. He plays a few Nick Drake and Beatles tunes as well. This is a different thing, but Keith Jarrett's trio was where I thought this Bernstienian school of so called "neo-eclecticism" first came out in the 80's... a progressive jazz band playing just standards? Interesting...
And then comes John Zorn, which is another thing entirely, but related. I think we will see a revival of so called "fusion" in the next five-ten years. However, it won't be corny or artistically bankrupt, and no cheesy synth sounds will be allowed. I think it'll be a music that incorporates many styles from drum and bass, to hiphop, to rock, to fusion itself, to avant garde, to cuban/brazillian styles, but all the time remaining firmly rooted in a jazz bebop/post bop idea of improvisation. That's the way it seems to be going to me.

[jazzgregg]

Finn,
One thing you need to keep in mind is that the Masada stuff isn't and never was strictly for the quartet (nor is it particularly 'Jazzy', often-but I digress), the 'Masada book' is Jewish/klezmer/Phrygian/Sfardic based tunes that he can easily orchestrate on purpose- they were written that way, to be adaptable to whatever he wants them to be. All of this falls under 'Radical Jewish Culture', not neccesarily Acoustic Masada in particular. Just to clarify, you know me=)

When it comes to 'fusion' as in the definition of the word, Zorn is an anomaly. He really does do things differently than EVERYONE else, is heads above the rest and is a total genius.

I think it's completely possible to reverse engineer Jazz music. The problem is, most who are capapble, won't do it. One of the things that makes Zorn so prolific is that he can and DOES do it. On the other hand, most Jazz musicians won't consider arranging Ellington for 4 guitars and 3 drummers or a laptop and theramin even though that would be bitchin, I think. It's all that snobby crap 'Oh, I'm a JAZZ musician, I couldn't POSSIBLY see merit in Rammstein'. What prevents it is the people themselves. Most 'Jeff Hamilton Jazzers' HATE Zorn (I'd wager every last one of them does), think he is a bad musician and has no business playing a horn etc.etc. Of course, it's this closed mindedness that leads people to the stagnancy that is currently occurring in certain circles. It takes someone like Zorn who couldn't care less about money, labels and that kind of thing, but more importantly, it takes someone who hears merit in something so far from Jazz as Napalm Death like Zorn does. If you're a closed minded Jazz guy holed up with only your Blue Notes to keep you warm, what do you know about arranging for NON Jazz stuff? Not only that, it wouldn't even OCCUR to you or cross your mind to do it, I'd wager.

Then, there are of course the psuedo-re-arrangements. Crap you do on gigs because you or someone or all of you are too 'influenced' to know better like Disco How High the Moon, Hard Rock Solar and Reggae Days of Wine and Roses. However, I somehow doubt you mean this stuff=)

Anyway, I say it isn't possible to have another renaissance. The word 'Fusion' is already tainted and you're right Finn, no barge poles in sight. I think this will keep people away, In the malls, elevators, banks, hospitals and yes, the hold music on the phone- the end result of what happens when you attempt to merge rock and Jazz will hang around all musicians necks like an Albatross, serving as a warning to those who might try. A razor wire encrusted bastion, if you will, of how stupid music can sound and how low you can sink....

Ok, but seriously, why isn't it possible? Simple. Less lines. There are less boundries to cross, most things have been done already and 'Jazz' itself is becoming more and more distorted as to its content. There doesn't NEED to be a revival, because it never stopped occurring (fusion in the actual sense, that is), except for the Neo Boppers, but who cares about them anyway? There can't be a resurgence of something that's been infiltrating Jazz for many years. Look at how fuzzy the lines are about 'Acid Jazz' and this sort of thing for some people. Various styles and influences have always been available to the Jazz musician if he chooses to take them and today many are doing so. People like Dave Douglas have been taking steps in all directions at once , you need only to hear 'Keystone' to hear a downright Fusion album from a 'Jazz guy' (which I hated=). There is no break to be made anymore from anything.

On the other hand, it's only when you really mean it does the sublime merging of musics truely occur. This is why, like it all or not, Zorn works on so many levels to so many varied people.

On the other hand, I think the separation you speak of in younger players is indicative of what they're being taught and where/how. As we've spoken about here already, they aren't being groomed to innovate, but rather conform and look backward INSTEAD of forward. No one tells them it's okay to like both- at the same time.


Of course, this is just my opinion and what the hell do I know?

G

[jazzgregg]

No one else on this? Surely not....

G

[OZjazzer]

Love to be in this discussion Gregg but as you would understand, the water's a little deep for me. Also it's winter here, so I've been keeping warm, tucked up with my Blue Notes (=).

[TheSteve]

Man, this thread has gone in so many directions since I've last seen it. I guess I'll change the subject. I've been using Peter Erskine sticks and I really like them but after a few weeks of using them the tips chip away. What do you, all of you, think would be a really great stick for jazz that you can play as hard as you want but not over powering and maintaining an overall light sound? I don't want to go to the stick thread, I want to take it here, in the jazz world thread. Let me know what you think.

[OZjazzer]

Man, this thread has gone in so many directions since I've last seen it. I guess I'll change the subject. I've been using Peter Erskine sticks and I really like them but after a few weeks of using them the tips chip away. What do you, all of you, think would be a really great stick for jazz that you can play as hard as you want but not over powering and maintaining an overall light sound? I don't want to go to the stick thread, I want to take it here, in the jazz world thread. Let me know what you think.

I hope this topic keeps going inside the jazz thread because the needs of jazz players are so different to those of the rock/punk/metal guys.

I guess as long as we hit metal things with wooden things we're in trouble with chipping etc. Because of that, I did actually give the Regal Tip 'E Series' jazz sticks a really good go and found them at least acceptable. In fact when the funny little ridges on the nylon tip wear a bit they often sound even better, but overall wood still wins.

Firth's AJ3's and 4's are OK but the nearest thing I've found to the perfect jazz stick is from a small company called Bopworks. I am hooked on their 'West Coast' model which has a nice long taper like the Regal Tip 'E's (which I think is one of the key factors in getting a great cymbal sound). The more weight at the head the worse the cymbal sound IMO. Bopworks shorter and thicker 'Savoy Jazz' is very nice too. Like all wooden sticks they of course wear, but don't seem to chip as badly as some. You have to order them from their site but that's OK for me because I get most of my gear from the states anyway. Having said all that I'm still very interested in what the others on this thread are using. I haven't ever looked at Vater for instance. By the way the Erskines didn't do it for me but there are 2 models and I only tried one. Here is the Bopworks site:

http://www.bopworks.net/

[TheSteve]

Thank you for the very indepth answer, I will look into that company. I need to try a new stick, something that will sound great and last longer. Thanks, man.

[jazzgregg]

Man, this thread has gone in so many directions since I've last seen it. I guess I'll change the subject. I've been using Peter Erskine sticks and I really like them but after a few weeks of using them the tips chip away. What do you, all of you, think would be a really great stick for jazz that you can play as hard as you want but not over powering and maintaining an overall light sound? I don't want to go to the stick thread, I want to take it here, in the jazz world thread. Let me know what you think.

I use and have used the Erskine rides for every single thing I've done since they came out, or thereabouts and I thrash the snot out of my gear regularly, more so that any Jazzer except one or 2 that I know of. I also dig it when they wear down cause it gives you a sort of smooshy sound on the cymbals. I especially like it when some parts of my cymbal pattern are normal and some are said smooshy. The tip is the best thing about that stick is the tip so I'd still use them even if I didn't like the sound of chipped tips. Those sticks can even make crappy cymbals sound like gold.

The VF AJ series are pretty good, I used the AJ6's for a while but then returned to my tried and tested PE sticks (which you can clearly see in that pic I posted in the gear section I think) after I realized they were too wimpy.

'Course, I didn't really offer you any suggestions or anything, plus, I replied to a gear question. Someone shoot me now (I only posted 'cause OZ did)...

G

[Guillermo]

Well... there is this thing... jazz players, REAL jazz musicians very rarely go "the marketing route"... I mean whatever sounds good, whatever makes your sound individual... it is a cliché to think that a jazz drummer uses light stuff always... but what is REALLY hard to find is a jazz drummer using a product "labeled" as "jazz something".

most good jazz drummers I have seen use relatively common sticks... 5As, 5Bs...
A light and durable stick is Vic Firth 8D... I used those for a long while to play whatever music... and they are almost as durable as a 5A, but very light.

[capnrusty]

I use big sticks (Vic Firth SD10 Swingers). It was a challenge to learn to play them lightly at first, but I got used to it. When I need to really slam the drums it's easier, using a beefy stick like that and all.

[theduke86]

PE sticks are fantastic. I use them for everything. When one tip wears down, I just rotate the stick a little bit, voila.

[TheSteve]

PE sticks are fantastic. I use them for everything. When one tip wears down, I just rotate the stick a little bit, voila.



HAHAHA, I thought I was the only one that did that!

[Drummer Karl]

So, an hour ago I was in the Billy Ward forum and I have shown my playing there. Also we discussed about JAZZ.
This is what I think about Jazz: I think it is a life attidude, I think it is a "life standard"
Someone in Billy`s forum said that for example Jack DeJohnette or Billy himself also understand the language of Jazz.
I know that Jazz is a culture and a tradition, it is such an old music style...and I know that there is a jazz language but I don`t know whether I think right.
I always try to make interpretations about the Jazz song I`m listening to. I ask question to myself like:
What situation could this song decribe?
What feelings are there?
What attitude describes the musician here, can I translate musical situations/signs, so that for example a linear piano rythm/melody describes the linear life or being of a human being?
Do the dynamics mean something for the situation?
What does the single instrument mean for the situation, how does it influence the situation?

Are there parts in the song?

so: (1. loud and stressful - 2. the climax - 3. the collapse of the situation, first part - 4. the rebuilding of the situation) <---------just an example for a jazz tune

Is there an open end or a "happy end"?

these are my main question I ask myself when I listen to a Jazz tune.
Also when I play Jazz I try to play it with my whole devotion and emotions.

so, is my thinking about Jazz right, do I have the right attitude? Also: Is my thinking good for being 15 years old?!

thanks,

Karl

[superbatmat]

I think you're right Karl !

But what do you think about "jazz is a life attitude" ? What's the attitude of a jazzlife ?

[Drummer Karl]

But what do you think about "jazz is a life attitude" ? What's the attitude of a jazzlife ?

just meant that you not just have to play Jazz to be a real jazz player, I think, you have to live with jazz, around the clock, you have to live for it.

so, more thoughts would be appreciated...

Karl

[Hunter]

I think you are thinking about this too much.

[millerdakiller]

well there are two ways to think of Jazz in my opinion. One that is very calculated and technical. I only use this when playing in a big band format because I have to blend with so many musicians. I can't really go off the wall too much. However, ina trio or duo format, I feel pretty much free to do whatever I want almost. So in that format, it becomes about emotion. Much the way you described. I like to think of it like this. I'm painting a picture. And the notes I play are the colors, and the rythym is the brush stroke(I'm talking about guitar btw). And I am painting a picture, and the object is to make something beautiful.

That's just me thougjh

[theduke86]

Karl,
I think Jazz "language" in this context means the actual vocabulary that the jazz greats are playing. Any style has it's "cliches" or common vocabulary that it's musicians are expected to know. In the case of a jazz musician- this means having a solid grasp of bebop and post-bop vocabulary. This can be done by studying the music, whether it's just time playing, or solo vocabulary. Specifically, for me, this means buying fifteen-twenty albums (at least) of all the great past musicians and spending a few months on each of them. The general consensus of most Jazz drummers and educators is that you should really spend time analyzing and studying records that Max Roach, Roy Haynes, Philly Joe Jones, Art Blakey, Tony Williams, Elvin Jones and Jack DeJohnette play on. All of these drummers have a very distinct style, in the ideas they play, in their phrasing and in the way they physically hit their instruments. You can do this by using a transcription, or if you have great ears, by just listening to a lot of the specific drummer. So far, I've really, really checked out Max Roach and Art Blakey (and a little Tony). That means I've spent 3-4 months minimum checking out transcriptions, learning their vocabulary, and trying to listen to an album worth of their playing... every day. That's how you really learn the tradition of Jazz drumming and develop your own distinct way of thinking about things. Well, how you develop your own style is a much much more complicated question than that, and there are people on this forum who's expertise I defer to on this matter. Anyways, that's what I think they're trying to communicate. That the language is something that you can do your homework with, rather than a loftier more esoteric goal... which is just fine too- jazz means different things to different people.

[Drummer Karl]

I think you are thinking about this too much.

of course I don`t always analyze the jazz tunes I`m listening to, or try to make interpretations! haha, this would be awful. but when I listen to a tune many many times I try to analyze the feelings, the situation. This really helps me to understand jazz better, especially free jazz.

Karl

[Drummer Karl]

Karl,
I think Jazz "language" in this context means the actual vocabulary that the jazz greats are playing. Any style has it's "cliches" or common vocabulary that it's musicians are expected to know. In the case of a jazz musician- this means having a solid grasp of bebop and post-bop vocabulary. This can be done by studying the music, whether it's just time playing, or solo vocabulary. Specifically, for me, this means buying fifteen-twenty albums (at least) of all the great past musicians and spending a few months on each of them. The general consensus of most Jazz drummers and educators is that you should really spend time analyzing and studying records that Max Roach, Roy Haynes, Philly Joe Jones, Art Blakey, Tony Williams, Elvin Jones and Jack DeJohnette play on. All of these drummers have a very distinct style, in the ideas they play, in their phrasing and in the way they physically hit their instruments. You can do this by using a transcription, or if you have great ears, by just listening to a lot of the specific drummer. So far, I've really, really checked out Max Roach and Art Blakey (and a little Tony). That means I've spent 3-4 months minimum checking out transcriptions, learning their vocabulary, and trying to listen to an album worth of their playing... every day. That's how you really learn the tradition of Jazz drumming and develop your own distinct way of thinking about things. Well, how you develop your own style is a much much more complicated question than that, and there are people on this forum who's expertise I defer to on this matter. Anyways, that's what I think they're trying to communicate. That the language is something that you can do your homework with, rather than a loftier more esoteric goal... which is just fine too- jazz means different things to different people.

yep, agree with your post. At the moment I`m listening to Jack DeJohnette, Keith Jarrett and Gary Peacock (the CD is called "Inside Out"). I`ve listened already when I`ve got it ( 1week ago ) and every day I listen. It`s nice to analyze his style but not just Jack`s, also Gary`s and Keith`s, I mean the character of the trio.
and what I meant was that you can also make interpretations for jazz tunes, to ask some questions (they are in the start post).
I think it is like a musical poem, you can analyze it so well. You just have to think about it...

Karl

[capnrusty]

Actual jazz musicians never, ever, use the term "jazzer." It makes me cringe just to read it.

[capnrusty]

Heck yeah. If I only learned drum solos, I'd be a lot worse off. There's a lot we can learn from other instrumentalists and singers. Real drummy drummers tend to have very boring ways of phrasing things.

[jazzgregg]

Well Karl, I think you're on the right track, but I have a few opinions to express.
1. No, there is no such thing as too much thinking about it. A piece of music can and should be looked in from a number of angles and perspectives, which you are doing. Too many drummers are concerned with drumistic thoughts while drumming- playing licks, excercising chops, doing a little Max thing here or a Tony thing there. This is BAD music. Thinking about things as you are is a more musical approach, it isn't instrument specific , therefore it's universally applicable. It's an approach that focuses on what the song (and you as a group of MUSICIANS interpreting it) are trying to convey, not you as a drummer are trying to force upon the music.

2. LDguy is right I think about the transcriptions. Dig deeper. Transcriptions are context sensitive and the more you transcribe, the more you become a lick player since that's what you've learned. It's also the context in which you've learned it, i.e. OUT of context and as licks only. Transcribe as little as possible and never alone. Instead, study drummers on a conceptual level (something it appears you are going for as it is). No matter how you put it, you WILL play your transcriptions and will therefore be playing not only someone else's licks, but their ideas, not your own. That sucks.

3. LDguy is also right about playing another instrument, i.e. piano. It will help immensely, then you won't need to rely on 'drum only' ideas and concepts.

4. It's also true that it's good to think about all this stuff, but when actually performing, don't think about it. Improvisation works best when it's improvised, not pre-planned (i.e. licks, learned/ transcribed fills, etc.). Of course you need a vocabulary to 'speak the language' but don't be one of those people trying to sound smart by using a 13 letter word when a 4 letter one would do just as well.

5. Jazz has a history and a tradition, though it's not as old as it seems, it just progressed very fast (a new 'style' roughly every 10 years until 1980!). Culture? Nowadays, not so much. Some people still naively think New York is the hub of Jazz and while it was at one point, Jazz has moved beyond it's own stereotype and can't (and shouldn't) really be associated with a particular group or culture. Jazz can happen anywhere, culturally speaking. There are a number of good books to read on the history of Jazz that I can reccomend if you want (I can only reccommend English versions though!=). It's important to know the history so you can comprehend your place in it.

6. Thinking about how the musicians and instruments affect (and effect) the composition is good, it will help you feel out colours and sonorities needed for musicial playing.

7. Only drummers love Dave Weckl, everyone loved Billy Higgins. Consider.


You're thinking is along the right lines. However, depending on the kind of musician or drummer you want to be, take heed of the technical side of things and the sterotypes/ pre-concieved ideas of what you should do and what you shouldn't. I never really speak of anything I do on this forum unless asked specifically for the most part, as I don't see merit in saying 'that's nice, here's what I do', however, in this case, I will say something as a Jazz educator and card carrying IAJE guy. I teach my students not to be Jazz drummers specifically, but to be themselves. If they like Jazz and wish to follow it's lead, they will be Jazz drummers, and so on. You are on that path, as you know.
However.
More than any other tool, learn who you are as a musician and what YOU bring to the music, not as a drummer, but as Karl the person. This, IMO is the true test of Jazz, not chops, cutting, speed or licks, but responsibility to the music and what you have to offer it.

G

[Guillermo]

Yes... yes...

Also young friend, let me tell you it's so good you are discovering this whole world of music ... jazz lies there, outside the limelight, and it is the definitive art form created in America... very rich and rewarding...

Jazz is not an exclusive thing... totallty the opposite, instead it's an INCLUSIVE thing... the great jazz masters have been courageous, adventurous and giving people, mixing influences, experimenting and expanding the musical language and possibilities, it's not at all ABOUT jazz and it's history, it's about absorving all this wonderful music and applying it's values, beauty and creativity to your own life and how you approach it and live it... it can coexist with a broad musical taste and enrich your life's experiences.

Jazz gives you a lifetime of such discoveries.

here's 2 hints on the subject.

1) A lot of great music, specially jazz tells a story... unlike a good pop song, these are not as linear as a condensed lyric... listen to something like John Coltrane's "My favourite things", sit back and you will SEE the music in your head and images of your own will take shape to make the listening experience something special.

2) Discover... nothing is more fulfilling in jazz as the sensation of discovery... go at your own pace... explore musicians, composers and just let yourself be knocked out by great music as you discover it... that sense of wonder and curiosity will be rewarded with music that will touch you profoundly.

Good luck!

[Drummer Karl]

First I wanna say a big THANK YOU guys!!! Many great tips and posts! Ps.: The word "jazzer" we just use here in the local Germany I think...it is a little bit insulting though :-D
and I also agree with Gregg about the "thinking", I think you can`t think about something too much, especially Jazz. I find it very very helpful to sit back, listen to the tune and ask some questions about it and the musicians, listen to their style. I also find it good to analyze this tune, not just for one time...I like to do it two times, and even three. <------- but then, I sit back (like I`ve done in the beginning) and I just enjoy the music.




4. It's also true that it's good to think about all this stuff, but when actually performing, don't think about it. Improvisation works best when it's improvised, not pre-planned (i.e. licks, learned/ transcribed fills, etc.). Of course you need a vocabulary to 'speak the language' but don't be one of those people trying to sound smart by using a 13 letter word when a 4 letter one would do just as well.

yep, that is also my thinking. "Think about something...until you understand it, learn it."
BUT...when I go one a stage and I make music, I really forget all those things, I just make...music.
About this "letter" thing: A friend (he also studies music/drumming at a music high school now) praised me after a gig (it was about three weeks ago) because I`ve played it so simple, I used those "4 letter words".
...and also nice is that you learn a really important thing when learning/playing Jazz: improvising. ;-) I don`t wanna say you don`t learn it in other music styles, too but you can say something like "especially in jazz".
wooow, and "pre-planning" isn`t possible...everything I play is directly from my heart man :-) ...I think pre-planning is just roboter-like, not humance and that doesn`t fit into music, Jazz. so I think that persons, "musicians" who pre-plan EVERYTHING before a gig aren`t real musicians.





7. Only drummers love Dave Weckl, everyone loved Billy Higgins. Consider.

Hehe...because Dave is a drummer and Billy is a musician?





You're thinking is along the right lines. However, depending on the kind of musician or drummer you want to be, take heed of the technical side of things and the sterotypes/ pre-concieved ideas of what you should do and what you shouldn't. I never really speak of anything I do on this forum unless asked specifically for the most part, as I don't see merit in saying 'that's nice, here's what I do', however, in this case, I will say something as a Jazz educator and card carrying IAJE guy. I teach my students not to be Jazz drummers specifically, but to be themselves. If they like Jazz and wish to follow it's lead, they will be Jazz drummers, and so on. You are on that path, as you know.
However.
More than any other tool, learn who you are as a musician and what YOU bring to the music, not as a drummer, but as Karl the person. This, IMO is the true test of Jazz, not chops, cutting, speed or licks, but responsibility to the music and what you have to offer it.

G

^ ^
^ ^
^ ^
^ ^
I think my drum teacher speaks here...haha........thanks mate, thanks. :-)

Karl

[Drummer Karl]

1) A lot of great music, specially jazz tells a story... unlike a good pop song, these are not as linear as a condensed lyric... listen to something like John Coltrane's "My favourite things", sit back and you will SEE the music in your head and images of your own will take shape to make the listening experience something special.



Great point! I`ll look for this song...however...This is another thing I love about Jazz: Jazz can depict a situation or a story very well, like in a pic or in a movie. I always can imagine a place and a situation when I listen to a jazztune...and I think Jazz can be greatly accociated with the his origin environment and with the poeple who made the tune and who live there......mhhh...

Karl

[LDGuy]

7. Only drummers love Dave Weckl, everyone loved Billy Higgins. Consider.

Hehe...because Dave is a drummer and Billy is a musician?


Hahahahaha! Quote of the year!

[theduke86]

The "copycat or not to copycat" debate has already been beaten to death by Gregg and myself in other threads, so I'm not really going to bring it back up, except to say don't dismiss it out of hand- the method has worked for some great masters of the instrument. I'm sure we're all familiar with how Tony Williams ripped people off and forged something not even dreamed of before. It really works for a lot people- but some people find their way to jazz a little differently and that's cool too. It certainly seems to have worked for Gregg.
Now, I think playing a different instrument is a great idea. I also think doing some composing of your own is a great idea. I try to write/arrange all the time, and I think it's really changed the way I think about how I actually play the drums. Starting small, putting those melodies and chords on paper can really start to get you out of the technical quagmire that we drummers tend to experience. At least, I feel it allowed me to start thinking a little bit about what I really wanted to say as a musician, not *just* a drummer.
Transcribing other instrumentalists is also a fantastic idea- I did a Wayne Shorter transcription last year- super idea. Conceptually, I found it extremely helpful.
Many jazz compositions or improvisations (especially post bop) seem cinematic in nature to me. As far as evoking emotions, I think that's where most of the "beef" is. I also think that the drummer is really the emotional center of the post-bop jazz ensemble and it's our job to spur things onward. Just my two cents...

[mattsmith]

Actual jazz musicians never, ever, use the term "jazzer." It makes me cringe just to read it.
According to Dad, the word just jazz had this dictionary definition before 1930:

Slang for for sexual copulation: usually considered vulgar. In other words it was the same as the F word.

So obviously when you see an old title like Jazz Me Blues, you find that pretty shocking for the 1920s.

I also find it really funny when someone is called a jazzer or to see a newspaper write a headline like Jazzing it up. When you replace it in your mind with the other word, it's hilarious that they don't know what they have said, especially when they convert it into a verb.

[Pete Stoltman]

Thanks guys for a very thoughtful discussion on this topic. Wish I would have spotted it sooner but most of what I have to say on the topic has been covered in one post or another. Will keep watching though. Great responses and some excellent ideas proposed.

[Drummer Karl]

Hahahahaha! Quote of the year!


haha, but please don`t tell Dave :-D ...actually he is one of my biggest influence...

Karl

[Drifter in the Dark]

Last nite I ended up listening the song "500 Miles High" by Chick Corea + Return To Forever off their landmark album Light As A Feather. First of all, this should be standard listening for all drummers! Airto Moreira is in absolutely stunning form on this record. But the point I wanted to make is that I listened to it with my eyes closed, blocking out all other sensory distractions, and heard things I'd never heard before, even though I've been hearing this album for many years. Before, I would just be captivated by the drums, but last nite I finally heard how the kit interplays with the other instruments and where Airto is taking his rhythmic cues from. There is a difference between hearing and listening. Being a good listener is very important when playing jazz. So, I guess in that sense, the "language" of jazz is more about listening than talking.

[finnhiggins]

Hehe...because Dave is a drummer and Billy is a musician?


No no, it's all about the surname. Really.

[Drummer Karl]

No no, it's all about the surname. Really.

WHAT?!?!?!?! Why this????

...the speechless Karl :-D

[Drummer Karl]

No no, it's all about the surname. Really.

WHAT?!?!?!?! Why this????

...the speechless Karl :-D

[Drad-dog]

I hate the word "jazzy." Something's either jazz or it ain't!

Damn, does that make me a snob?

Haven't been on drummerworld for a while 'cause I've been darn busy. Great to see some good jazz conversation going again. Nice posts Gregg and Guillermo. I have nothing to add. Karl, you're in good company.

[OZjazzer]

Just a thought about this whole 'jazz life' thing, transcriptions, learning 'licks' etc. Sorry in advance if this comes out in a clumsy fashion. Here goes.

I notice that loving the music is rarely mentioned. I just can't help listening to jazz (and some classical) music because it's as important as food and sleep to me. I'll play a track or a part of a track many, many times simply because I love it. So basically I 'learned' by listening. And if you have to force yourself listen to the greats then it's all going to be hard work. Very hard work. I you love the music it's easy. Certainly transcriptions and discussions can help with understanding, but if the inner urge isn't there it's going to be very hard going. Bit like a runner who doesn't like running.

I know many musicians who love their instrument more than they actually like music. This I think applies to many drummers in particular. The mechanics of playing the instrument turns them on more than the actual music. You only have to look at many of the majority of threads on this site, as well as things like WFD and the endless drum solo type DVD's to see what I mean. That's fine of course, but while that big technical/mechanical emphasis works with lots of kinds of music, it won't work with jazz. Of course you have to have chops, but that's only a means to an end. Too many musicians think it is the end.

IMO real jazz musos play simply because they have to. It's deep inside them. Jazz drummers don't own 49 kinds of snare drums or stress out over the latest pedals, they play. Playing music is the important thing.

IMO if you love the music, you're half way there.

[jazzgregg]

I know many musicians who love their instrument more than they actually like music. This I think applies to many drummers in particular.

I hereby nominate OZ for quote of the year. OZ, man, that's it right there. These people that are like this are obvious too, you can't miss it. Many might argue. Some may even say it's ok to love your drums more than music, but they will all be wrong.
Apparently though, some Jazz drummers think you need 45 ride cymbals...

Kudos to OZ for explaining so simply the biggest problem with drummers.

G
(edit- Drad, I hear you about using the word 'Jazzy', I've been preaching what you said for YEARS man! Keep it up, band together, toss out the infidels...er...smite the heathens?)

[drumfun]

Old K's, Round badges, sweaty, smokey ,swingin' ...
I love this stuff. Check out Turn it up..Vol.4
www.drumfun.com

[capnrusty]

I'm trying to read this thread, but I just can't get through the whole thing...

I'm glad I got some Hamid Drake recommendations, though. I have been meaning to check him out for a while now.

[jazzgregg]

I'm trying to read this thread, but I just can't get through the whole thing...

I'm glad I got some Hamid Drake recommendations, though. I have been meaning to check him out for a while now.

C'mon man, one step at a time, you can do it!. You're an asset here on this thread, but I don't want to have to flip out on you for not reading the whole thing before posting=)

G

[theduke86]

OZ- Great post.
I love collecting cymbals though, I hope that doesn't put me in that category, because frankly I'd never have gotten deep into this as I did if it wasn't the best thing in the world to do.

[OZjazzer]

OZ- Great post.
I love collecting cymbals though, I hope that doesn't put me in that category, because frankly I'd never have gotten deep into this as I did if it wasn't the best thing in the world to do.

Cymbals!! Well that's another thing entirely. Can't have enough of them. Always searching for that right ride (and of course a good 'lefty' as well).

[Drummer Karl]

Just a thought about this whole 'jazz life' thing, transcriptions, learning 'licks' etc. Sorry in advance if this comes out in a clumsy fashion. Here goes.

I notice that loving the music is rarely mentioned. I just can't help listening to jazz (and some classical) music because it's as important as food and sleep to me. I'll play a track or a part of a track many, many times simply because I love it. So basically I 'learned' by listening. And if you have to force yourself listen to the greats then it's all going to be hard work. Very hard work. I you love the music it's easy. Certainly transcriptions and discussions can help with understanding, but if the inner urge isn't there it's going to be very hard going. Bit like a runner who doesn't like running.

I know many musicians who love their instrument more than they actually like music. This I think applies to many drummers in particular. The mechanics of playing the instrument turns them on more than the actual music. You only have to look at many of the majority of threads on this site, as well as things like WFD and the endless drum solo type DVD's to see what I mean. That's fine of course, but while that big technical/mechanical emphasis works with lots of kinds of music, it won't work with jazz. Of course you have to have chops, but that's only a means to an end. Too many musicians think it is the end.

IMO real jazz musos play simply because they have to. It's deep inside them. Jazz drummers don't own 49 kinds of snare drums or stress out over the latest pedals, they play. Playing music is the important thing.

IMO if you love the music, you're half way there.

OZjazzer: Great, I agree, just agree, great post!
Yes they play, you can see this when you watch many Jazz drummers: They don`t own the best hi-hat machine, the best or latest foot pedal...First time i noticed that was when I watched the Ed Soph Videos here on Drummerworld.
He just plays, right. and I do this, too, because it is my passion and directly from my heart. I know that I have maybe 2% of Jack`s or Ed`s knowledge but this is another this, only thing I can tell is that I have 100% of this (their) passion.

thanks everybody!

Karl

[capnrusty]

Okay, so I did my best to read as much of this as I could. There were lots of interesting things mentioned in this thread, but I'm not going beat any dead horses at this point. I will, however, mention a few drummers I like that I don't believe were mentioned already.

1. Frankie Dunop

This guy was SWINGING! In my opinion, he was the finest of Monk's drummers (at least for Monk's music). He even kind of sounded like Monk on drums in a way. He was a very quirky, angular player. A lot of the stuff he played just wouldn't sound right with many other musicians, but sounded perfect with Monk. Now there's a drummer with real personality. He's immediately identifiable.

2. Herlin Riley

Personally, I like Wynton. I don't like everything he does, but I loved the septet with Herlin on drums. That band swung their asses off. They brought folk sensibilities back to jazz. Reginald Veal played the bass like a man, no amp with a huge, woody sounded. Herlin incorporated a lot of folk instruments back into the kit (tambourines, wash boards, cowbell, woodblock, etc.). Some complain that the band was too set on recreating old music, but I don;'t think that was the case. Their music sounds nothing like Louis Armstrong's, Kid Ory's, or even Preservation Hall's. Nor do they sound like Bo Dollis and the Wild Magnolias or other Mardi Gras Indians. Nor do they sound like Paul Barbarin's band. They mixed up their New Orleans influences and made their own thing out of it. I find that most people that blast them for doing the New Orleans thing never really checked out any music from NOLA (aside from maybe the Meters). The same detractors might lead you to believe that Mehldau playing Radiohead tunes is somehow more valid. This band just played where they're from.

Anyway, Herlin is a beast. He plays the holy hell out of the drums. Everything grooves. He's another one with lots of personality. Plus, he's got all those nasty beats that'll make your butt shake. Killing drummer.

3. James Black

I guess I'm stuck in New Orleans. Has anyone ever checked James Black out? Man, this guy was insane. His playing was WAY ahead of its time. He had that NOLA sound, but mixed with contemporary guys like Elvin. Forget about Brubeck...what James Black was doing in 5/4 was WAY past that "Take Five" stuff. He made 5 swing, walking bass lines and all. He wrote his butt off, too. He has some really great tunes. Most of them are pretty difficult, actually. Definitely ahead of his time and vastly under appreciated.

some records to check out with JB on drums...

Ellis Marsalis "The Classic Ellis Marsalis"
Yusef Lateef "Live at Pep's vol. 1 and 2"
Nat Adderly "In the Bag"

3. Jason Marsalis

Staying with this New Orleans theme again...Very intelligent drummer. What I like about Jason is that he has one foot in the past and one in the future. He's very well studied, but he's not just rehashing history. Plus, he's one of the best listeners out there. He doesn't just play random stuff, it's mostly all relevant and in the moment. His solos are some of my favorite drum solos period. It's almost like a modern Max type thing, but from New Orleans...like he's adding to Ed Blackwell's thing, but with more of an emphasis on NOLA rhythms instead of the West African thing. Very spontaneous and creative musician. There's a guy with LOADS of technique, but he's the least flashy drummer around.

[jazzgregg]

Frankie Dunlop- agree wholeheartedly. Well said.

Herlin Riley- strongly disagree. You like Wynton? Go stand beside Stu_Strib.

James Black- I have that Nat album and he rips on it.

Jason Marsalis- strongly disagree.

When I want NOLA drumming, I go to Johnny Vid, no question.

Nevertheless, welcome=)

G

[capnrusty]

Yeah, I like Wynton. Like I said, I don't like everything the guy does, but I like some of it.


What don't you like about Herlin?

[jazzgregg]

Yeah, I like Wynton. Like I said, I don't like everything the guy does, but I like some of it.


What don't you like about Herlin?

His playing=)

G

20char

[capnrusty]

Hahahahaha

fair enough :)

[Drad-dog]

Hey, Cap'n,

Considering the heat this topic generated a few hundered posts back, it took courage to bring up the Marsalis name on this thread again! You've got sand, my man!

[Drad-dog]

...toss out the infidels...er...smite the heathens?)


SMITE THEM! SMITE THEM!

[capnrusty]

Hey, Cap'n,

Considering the heat this topic generated a few hundered posts back, it took courage to bring up the Marsalis name on this thread again! You've got sand, my man!


Ha. I'm not ashamed of what I like. I like Wynton the same way I like Lewis Nash. They can get a ton of colors out of their respective instruments. I wish I could control the sounds of my kit half as well as Lewis can. And like the notes he plays or not, Wynton can get some nice sounds out of a trumpet. "The Seductress" is cool as hell. He makes the trumpet sound like a human voice.

Now Branford's my man. I like almost all of his stuff. I have some trio bootlegs of him with Tain and Reginald Veal that are killing. I wish all bass players had half the sound that Veal has. Bad dude.

[jazzgregg]

Ha. I'm not ashamed of what I like. I like Wynton the same way I like Lewis Nash. They can get a ton of colors out of their respective instruments. I wish I could control the sounds of my kit half as well as Lewis can. And like the notes he plays or not, Wynton can get some nice sounds out of a trumpet. "The Seductress" is cool as hell. He makes the trumpet sound like a human voice.

Now Branford's my man. I like almost all of his stuff. I have some trio bootlegs of him with Tain and Reginald Veal that are killing. I wish all bass players had half the sound that Veal has. Bad dude.

Aw, man, Nash too!? No (more) comment than what I've already said on this thread.

G

[capnrusty]

Aw, man, Nash too!? No (more) comment than what I've already said on this thread.

G


I don't want to sound like him, but there are aspects of his playing that I can use to achieve what I'm after. :)

(like the colors thing and some bush techniques)

[The.GuessWho]

Just one question? How can somebody who clones Max Roach AND has the surname Marsalis sound modern and fresh? :P

I do agree with your comments about Frankie Dunlop, though. He's great for/with Monk!

[jazzgregg]

Just one question? How can somebody who clones Max Roach AND has the surname Marsalis sound modern and fresh? :P

I do agree with your comments about Frankie Dunlop, though. He's great for/with Monk!

lol, good point. Jason Marsalis , sorry to say, belongs with the Nash's, Washington's etc, IMO. Though Brastford, as we've said earlier, seems to be the exception.

G

[capnrusty]

lol, good point. Jason Marsalis , sorry to say, belongs with the Nash's, Washington's etc, IMO. Though Brastford, as we've said earlier, seems to be the exception.

G


Man, no way does Jason fit in the same category as Nash and KW. On the surface it might sound similar (he swings and isn't the most fiery drummer), but he's got a lot fresher sound than those two, plus the New Orleans bag. It's too bad that most of his recordings document him as a very young man. Also, you only really get to hear him with a few people.

Hell, Nash doesn't even fit into the KW category. He's a lot more open minded than KW.

[capnrusty]

Just one question? How can somebody who clones Max Roach AND has the surname Marsalis sound modern and fresh? :P

I do agree with your comments about Frankie Dunlop, though. He's great for/with Monk!


He doesn't clone Max. He sounds nothing like Max. I just think his solos are in a similar vein in terms of construction.

[jazzgregg]

He doesn't clone Max. He sounds nothing like Max. I just think his solos are in a similar vein in terms of construction.

Well, his solo construction counts, and how bout we say that if Max was from NOLA? Man, IMO, he does fit with Nash et. al he's just from somehwere else. Open mind or no, it's what they sound like, who they play with, what they're playing. Put Jason, with his Max-ness/NOLA-ness up against the Vidcovitches, even Stanton Moore, Ed Blackwell. Nah, man, JM just isn't there, to me.

TL- classic, and what I've thought all along. You can see it when they're together and not playing (mentioned earleir in the thread) and even sometimes when they are playing!. I've also been re-reading some of the thread as well.
G
(edit-spelling)

[capnrusty]

Blackwell and Vidaocavich I can see, but Stanton Moore? I don't know, man....


As far as the Nash "et al." thing goes, the old guard is still around and you wouldn't expect Joe Wilder to hire Jeff Ballard, Adam Cruz, et. al. Like them or not, KW and Nash have their place. If we could resurrect Klook or Higgins we would, but we can't so people get guys that can do the job.

Comparing the three is making huge generalizations about all of them. Leave personal preference out of this for a second...KW wouldn't fit with Marcus Roberts' trio. The stuff they play is not in KW's vocab. It's in Jason's, though. Same with Nash...he filled in for Tain with Branford in the 80s...there's really no replacement for Tain, but I doubt KW could have filled in on that gig. We could probably through Winard Harper into this, too. Have you seen Nash's septet? They're not playing "Orinthology." I never liked percussion in swinging jazz music until I saw Nash play with Steve Kroon. It definitely wasn't your standard fare (though, obviously, it wasn't that out there). So, while all three play jazz music that, in theory, swings, they can't be so easily grouped together.

[jazzgregg]

Blackwell and Vidaocavich I can see, but Stanton Moore? I don't know, man....


As far as the Nash "et al." thing goes, the old guard is still around and you wouldn't expect Joe Wilder to hire Jeff Ballard, Adam Cruz, et. al. Like them or not, KW and Nash have their place. If we could resurrect Klook or Higgins we would, but we can't so people get guys that can do the job.

Comparing the three is making huge generalizations about all of them. Leave personal preference out of this for a second...KW wouldn't fit with Marcus Roberts' trio. The stuff they play is not in KW's vocab. It's in Jason's, though. Same with Nash...he filled in for Tain with Branford in the 80s...there's really no replacement for Tain, but I doubt KW could have filled in on that gig. We could probably through Winard Harper into this, too. Have you seen Nash's septet? They're not playing "Orinthology." I never liked percussion in swinging jazz music until I saw Nash play with Steve Kroon. It definitely wasn't your standard fare (though, obviously, it wasn't that out there). So, while all three play jazz music that, in theory, swings, they can't be so easily grouped together.

lol, Stanton was a stretch, I needed a third=)
Now, about some players needing some traditional players, that's been covered here in this thread too, and I agreed completely, I just don't want to hear them.

Man, I throw ALL those guys in there, Harper, Allen etc, like it or not. I could care less if it was Nash or Washington with Brantford, it WASN'T Tain. Also, who else in the 80's was he going to get (a legitimate question)? C'mon man, this wasn't like when Roy used to fill in for Elvin with Trane, those were 2 equals! Just because they aren't literally playing Bird tunes, doesn't mean they aren't playing the BeBop.

Nash did a little residency at Berklee when I was there for a couple of days and although I'm not going to get into it, it was not my thing at all, boring, rehashed, transcribe this Max, lift that Philly. Yeah yeah, we know, show us something new? What? Oh, never mind Lewis=)

Most of my thoughts on this are somewhere in this thread, but as always, I'm more than happy to get into it again! Weren't we talking about Dave Liebman? That's the guy, or J Mac, not The Harper Brothers, Marsalis brother #34a or Lewis Nash.

G

[capnrusty]

lol, Stanton was a stretch, I needed a third=)
Now, about some players needing some traditional players, that's been covered here in this thread too, and I agreed completely, I just don't want to hear them.

Man, I throw ALL those guys in there, Harper, Allen etc, like it or not. I could care less if it was Nash or Washington with Brantford, it WASN'T Tain. Also, who else in the 80's was he going to get (a legitimate question)? C'mon man, this wasn't like when Roy used to fill in for Elvin with Trane, those were 2 equals! Just because they aren't literally playing Bird tunes, doesn't mean they aren't playing the BeBop.

Nash did a little residency at Berklee when I was there for a couple of days and although I'm not going to get into it, it was not my thing at all, boring, rehashed, transcribe this Max, lift that Philly. Yeah yeah, we know, show us something new? What? Oh, never mind Lewis=)

Most of my thoughts on this are somewhere in this thread, but as always, I'm more than happy to get into it again! Weren't we talking about Dave Liebman? That's the guy, or J Mac, not The Harper Brothers, Marsalis brother #34a or Lewis Nash.

G


Cool. Neither you nor I have to listen to anything we don't want to hear. :) There's some guys I'd like to see play before they die, though. If it takes a KW or a Nash for them to feel comfortable, then so be it. They're probably the most qualified ones for the job (though I do agree with you about KW not fitting with Jackie).

From what I understand, Branford could have got Smitty (in those days). And who's talking about bebop? I don't recall talking about bebop at all...or is anything that swings and has more than two chord changes considered bebop?

I would have loved to have access to Lewis for a couple days. You might not want to sound like him, but I'm sure he could teach you a thing or two if you were open to it. Of course he's gonna stress transcribing...most college "jazz" drummers don't do it. They don't swing, either. If you did your homework in school, cool, but I bet most of your peers didn't. Mine sure didn't. Did you ask Lewis any questions while he was there?

I'll talk about anyone and everyone. I can pick something useful up from damn near anyone, whether I like the music or not. As for listening for pleasure, that's a different story, but I'll give any album a chance once (as long as I don't have to buy it).

[jazzgregg]

Cool. Neither you nor I have to listen to anything we don't want to hear. :) There's some guys I'd like to see play before they die, though. If it takes a KW or a Nash for them to feel comfortable, then so be it. They're probably the most qualified ones for the job (though I do agree with you about KW not fitting with Jackie).

From what I understand, Branford could have got Smitty (in those days). And who's talking about bebop? I don't recall talking about bebop at all...or is anything that swings and has more than two chord changes considered bebop now?

I would have loved to have access to Lewis for a couple days. You might not want to sound like him, but I'm sure he could teach you a thing or two if you were open to it. Of course he's gonna stress transcribing...most college "jazz" drummers don't do it. They don't swing, either. If you did your homework in school, cool, but I bet most of your peers didn't. Mine sure didn't. Did you ask Lewis any questions while he was there?

I'll talk about anyone and everyone. I can pick something useful up from damn near anyone, whether I like the music or not. As for listening for pleasure, that's a different story, but I'll give any album a chance once (as long as I don't have to buy it).

You're right, Smitty would have worked, I forgot about him, he was on Brantford's 'Scenes in the City' which is pretty good. No one else though. The BeBop is just a comment on Nash's bag and what he saying. Nash isn't really doing anything new, or anything I want to hear (same with the others I mentioned). I saw him play when he was at school, but didn't ask him any questions because I didn't want to, nothing I wanted him to tell me. Dr. Dre was there same week, didn't ask him anything either.

Of course, I did my homework, that's why I didn't need to be told again! Remember, I had Lieb telling me as well! lol Hey, if Nash spurred someone to do something, that's great, it just wasn't me. I do agree that most college Jazz drummers don't swing, for sure! I can't think of any off the top of my head that do. Why? They don't know enough Papa Jo; don't know where it came from, they think Roy's first recording was "Now he Sings' and that he never played the hi hat on 2 and 4 and so on. They spend all their time learning licks (and I think many do transcribe, it shows in thier 'style') and NO time playing quarter notes on the cymbal and so on. Swinging concept and feel often comes secondary to the new pattern they've learned and that's sad. More than anything (except concept/approach) most young Jazz drummers don't know enough history, and not just about the drummers, but the music as a WHOLE. You need to learn the history so you can find where you fit in. If you're KW or Jeff Hamilton, maybe you find that where you fit in, someone else was already in your place, so you just copied him=)

I agree, actually that we can learn from everything. I've heard plenty of Nash, saw him play a couple times, heard albums, etc. Many people make the mistake that I am writing people off without hearing them on this thread. I ripped (and will do so anywhere, anytime) Jeff Hamilton and it was reccomended to me that I should listen to a CD with him on it! lol. As if I haven't heard Nash, Washington, Harper, whoever and am randomly making uneducated comments on random people (not saying you're doing that, as I know you are not, but just to set it straight=). Incedentally, Yoron Israel played with Nash on the last show of the couple of days. Someone gave me a recording of it, I think, but I'd heard enough.

G

[jazzgregg]

Now for something not so completely different.
It has been brought to my attention that the apocolypse is nigh. Surely this is one of the seven signs.

From the Lincoln Centre site:
Ecstatic and somber, secular and sacred, John Coltrane's musical sermons transform Rose Theater into a place of healing and celebration with orchestrations of his small group masterpieces "My Favorite Things," "Giant Steps," "Naima" and more. Join us as the JLCO with Wynton Marsalis marks the 80th year since the birth of one of the most admired, influential and adventurous artists in the history of jazz.
or click (http://www.jazzatlincolncenter.org/concerts/details.asp?EventID=941)

G

[Drad-dog]

Now for something not so completely different.
It has been brought to my attention that the apocolypse is nigh. Surely this is one of the seven signs.

From the Lincoln Centre site:
Ecstatic and somber, secular and sacred, John Coltrane's musical sermons transform Rose Theater into a place of healing and celebration with orchestrations of his small group masterpieces "My Favorite Things," "Giant Steps," "Naima" and more. Join us as the JLCO with Wynton Marsalis marks the 80th year since the birth of one of the most admired, influential and adventurous artists in the history of jazz.
or click (http://www.jazzatlincolncenter.org/concerts/details.asp?EventID=941)

G

So...One of the most influential and adventurous players in history is being paid tribute by someone who is neither influential or adventurous himself.

You know, 1000s of musicians do that all over the world, every time they call one of Coltrane's tunes. Wynton is the only one making a big fuss about it. As if he needs the cred. The Jazz cred, that is.

Check out Wynton:

"Oh man...when Trane played Afro Blue, man, he'd go 'bippity bop boop boop waa waa!' with that big sound! And all the cats would go 'oooo, Trane gone play it agin!' and that's when he developed his mastery of the metaphysical and cerebral properties of what he was doin' at that time- with Elvin Jones, man. Elvin Jones. You see, McCoy was the man in thoes days, but Elvin was like the king, and Trane was like the Pope, but he could play with that sound...the angels were singin', when he'd play. And then Trane would go 'weee-ooww, datta datta, weee-ooww,' and the angles would be like 'oooo, Trane goin' play straight to heaven. Trane took jazz to another level. He was like...Louis. Trane and Louis. They probably playing in heaven, right now! Yeah...tradin' fours with Louis."

[jazzgregg]

LOL!! Drad that must be a direct quote...

We did touch on this before in this thread, with WM doing the Love Supreme bit, but I needed to point out that no one told him he's actually insulting Trane than paying hommage to him. Of course, who's going to point it out, he's surrounded by yes-men (especially his 'band').

In the same way I think it might be an idea to set myself ablaze just to see if it really IS that hot, I kinda want to hear WM hack up Trane tunes.
G

[Drad-dog]

In the same way I think it might be an idea to set myself ablaze just to see if it really IS that hot, I kinda want to hear WM hack up Trane tunes.
G

I know what you mean...here's my call though. I think it will sound orchestrated, pre-planned, un-spontaneous, technically very good, un-creative, pop-ified, perfect. I wonder if they'll bring out Diana Krall to chant "A Love Supreme...A Love Supreme..."

Aw, I just gave myself a nightmare.

[jazzgregg]

I know what you mean...here's my call though. I think it will sound orchestrated, pre-planned, un-spontaneous, technically very good, un-creative, pop-ified, perfect. I wonder if they'll bring out Diana Krall to chant "A Love Supreme...A Love Supreme..."

Aw, I just gave myself a nightmare.

Diana Krall! Nice one, man.

Oh, by the way, you're saying that if I'm on fire, it IS in fact that hot. Gotcha.

G
(edit, I wonder who will be drumming? Tain is the only real choice not Herlin, though I'm doubtful. Herlin will not pull that off)

[OZjazzer]

Guys. Spare a thought for people like me, 12,000 miles away from the action! Guess I'll have to settle for the DVD and T-Shirt. Oh to be there, to hear the great man say 'bippity bop boop boop waa waa!' and then lift the trumpet to his lips and ..... play it! Thank god for people like Gregg and Drad to keep me fully Wyntonized.

[The.GuessWho]

"Oh man...when Trane played Afro Blue, man, he'd go 'bippity bop boop boop waa waa!' with that big sound! And all the cats would go 'oooo, Trane gone play it agin!' and that's when he developed his mastery of the metaphysical and cerebral properties of what he was doin' at that time- with Elvin Jones, man. Elvin Jones. You see, McCoy was the man in thoes days, but Elvin was like the king, and Trane was like the Pope, but he could play with that sound...the angels were singin', when he'd play. And then Trane would go 'weee-ooww, datta datta, weee-ooww,' and the angles would be like 'oooo, Trane goin' play straight to heaven. Trane took jazz to another level. He was like...Louis. Trane and Louis. They probably playing in heaven, right now! Yeah...tradin' fours with Louis."

No!!!!!! Please spare us!!!
I am listening to Afro-Blue right now and I don't even want to imagine what Wynton might turn it into...
I guess Wynton can recite at least ten-thousand of the "bibippi bibibipi waaaaaaaaaa" phrases Trane played on that tune, but maybe that's the point: Trane didn't have a library of things to play (at least he didn't want to create one on purpose) while Wynton is full of phrases and licks, thus unable to play from the heart (and Trane was a master of doing this!!).
By the way: For Wynton and the JLCO to achieve even a small part of Trane's energy there'd need to be a few hundred people in that orchestra and even if they combined all there creativity and adventurousness I doubt they'd arrive at Trane's level.

And by ranking the members of the quartet (and leaving out Jimmy Garrison altogether!) he was making another huge mistake! Trane was the leader and he had an idea where he wanted the music to go, but if you listen to them, they are playing as four EQUALS. It's not like Trane - being the pope ^^ - gets to play more music than McCoy just because he's the "pope" (that his solos did take longer is a different thing, but McCoy could play chords, so note-wise they might come out even ^^).

Last comment: I don't think Louis and Trane are trading fours! First of all Trane wasn't even into form anymore in the last two years of his life...Second thing: Louis would have to give up after Trane's first "four" anyway.

[jazzgregg]

No!!!!!! Please spare us!!!
I am listening to Afro-Blue right now and I don't even want to imagine what Wynton might turn it into...
I guess Wynton can recite at least ten-thousand of the "bibippi bibibipi waaaaaaaaaa" phrases Trane played on that tune, but maybe that's the point: Trane didn't have a library of things to play (at least he didn't want to create one on purpose) while Wynton is full of phrases and licks, thus unable to play from the heart (and Trane was a master of doing this!!).
By the way: For Wynton and the JLCO to achieve even a small part of Trane's energy there'd need to be a few hundred people in that orchestra and even if they combined all there creativity and adventurousness I doubt they'd arrive at Trane's level.

And by ranking the members of the quartet (and leaving out Jimmy Garrison altogether!) he was making another huge mistake! Trane was the leader and he had an idea where he wanted the music to go, but if you listen to them, they are playing as four EQUALS. It's not like Trane - being the pope ^^ - gets to play more music than McCoy just because he's the "pope" (that his solos did take longer is a different thing, but McCoy could play chords, so note-wise they might come out even ^^).

Last comment: I don't think Louis and Trane are trading fours! First of all Trane wasn't even into form anymore in the last two years of his life...Second thing: Louis would have to give up after Trane's first "four" anyway.

Even though Drad was just making this up, I can actually see Wynton going along one of these lines. The Ken Burns thing Drad's satire was based on (I posted it somewhere in this thread) was funny because it wasn't that untrue, just like this. I can see why you maybe thought this was an actual quote, Wynton being how he is.

Nevertheless, you bring up some very good points as well, points to consider when thinking about why WM shouldn't be doing this in the first place! A good contrast of the 2, TGW, for sure.

G

[capnrusty]

Last comment: I don't think Louis and Trane are trading fours! First of all Trane wasn't even into form anymore in the last two years of his life...Second thing: Louis would have to give up after Trane's first "four" anyway.

Uh, maybe I just don't get the joke, but are you implying that Pops wasn't in Trane's league?

[capnrusty]

LCJO completely took the balls out of A Love Supreme. Big thumbs down. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't play it, however. If I were them, I wouldn't, but that's just me...

[The.GuessWho]

Uh, maybe I just don't get the joke, but are you implying that Pops wasn't in Trane's league?

I am only trying to say that there are several decades (of continued development) between the two (and their styles!) and they just wouldn't fit together. Me being younger, I can relate to Trane much more that's why I mentioned it, Louis was a great musician nonetheless.

[capnrusty]

As far as Wynton being a licks player, I don't hear it. Gimmicky at times, yes, but he's not up there pulling Clifford Brown lines out of his ass.


Any love for Wes Anderson? Probably not. I like him.

[theduke86]

In respect to Herlin Riley-
I had a chance to attend a summer camp that he was playing at last year, and I have to say- as old school as he may sound, there's something cool going on with the guy. He's got a great groove and command of the instrument- notwithstanding he's a beautiful guy- not a bad bone in his body and always has a huge smile on his face when he's playing drums. I put him in a different league than Jeff Hamilton, Nash, KW et al in a way- maybe because I saw him up close.
I actually am studying with a drummer now who spent a year and a half studying with both KW and Lewis, awesome player. He used to live with Jeff Hamilton too for a little while. When I repeated some fo my opinions I've formed over the last few months, he told me "well, it all comes down to opinion" and showed me a record of Lewis playing free stuff. Since I'm way out of my league when it comes to free jazz, I was wondering if some of the vets of this thread could give me the real deal when it comes to free players- do bebop rooted guys make the best ones?

[jazzgregg]

There are a number of reasons Wynton and the LCJO SHOULDN'T play ALS. I do think they shouldn't play it. It's about respect.


G

[capnrusty]

I honestly think, with Lewis, he takes the gigs he takes and that's what he's known for. He's into all different kinds of music though.

As far as KW and Hamilton, you need guys keeping the tradition alive. If I was just starting out and I wanted to get inside some Max Roach, I'd go to KW, not Tain or whoever. I think KW will make his mark as an educator and there's nothing wrong with that.

And as much as everyone seems to hate Wynton, I think Lincoln Center is a good thing. It puts money in the pockets of a lot of musicians who could use it.

[capnrusty]

There are a number of reasons Wynton and the LCJO SHOULDN'T play ALS. I do think they shouldn't play it. It's about respect.


G

How so?

20 char??????

[jazzgregg]

I honestly think, with Lewis, he takes the gigs he takes and that's what he's known for. He's into all different kinds of music though.

As far as KW and Hamilton, you need guys keeping the tradition alive. If I was just starting out and I wanted to get inside some Max Roach, I'd go to KW, not Tain or whoever. I think KW will make his mark as an educator and there's nothing wrong with that.

And as much as everyone seems to hate Wynton, I think Lincoln Center is a good thing. It puts money in the pockets of a lot of musicians who could use it.

Regarding Nash- you are what you play. There was this guy , sax teacher at Berklee, who was a Smooth Jazz recording artist with the classic album covers, all the lame stuff. Well, one day, a guy says to me, 'I'm studying with _________' and I say 'he's a smooth jazz guy, why do that?'. He replied that ______ was also a ripping BeBopper, to which I said 'Oh yeah, well, too bad no one knows or cares. He's chosen to present his smoth jazziness, so good luck when he realizes it was a stupid idea'. Money? Sure smooth jazz gains you more, but that doesn't change my opinion. How the 2 types of 'music' can exist in the same person, I think, is questionable.

I think the LCJO is wrong. It's monoplized by a traditional closed-minded Jazz tyrant who refuses to see anything past his nose and it gives recorgnition and money to a select few who play a certain type of music, for the most part. There are better, more inventive and imaginitive musicians all over that need the money more than those associated with a federally funded arts consortium.

G

[jazzgregg]

How so?

20 char??????
Most have already been mentioned in this thread prior. Basically, that until he realized he could make money, he basically refused to ackowledge Trane's contribution to music. Wynton and 'visionary' do not go together, unless we are talking about marketing. Not to mention that you'd be hard pressed to find 2 different musicians and I will not believe for one second that WM believes in any way he is indebted to Coltrane, don't forget where his musical 'roots' stop', according to WM himself.

Also, to me, ALS is a sacred thing, taboo even and if you're going to mess with it, be careful. For me it's like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Last Crusade. Man, if you're going to mess with the Grail, you better be pure of heart.

As I said, there are more detailed answers somewhere a few pages back.

G

[capnrusty]

I think the LCJO is wrong. It's monoplized by a traditional closed-minded Jazz tyrant who refuses to see anything past his nose and it gives recorgnition and money to a select few who play a certain type of music, for the most part. There are better, more inventive and imaginitive musicians all over that need the money more than those associated with a federally funded arts consortium.

G


LC had Han Bennink, Willie Nelson, and a bunch of other people you wouldn't expect to see there last year.

Honestly, where is Joe Average going to hear about the music whoever without something like Lincoln Center? I mean, they might get lucky, but it's a gateway to the real stuff for a lot of people. It was for me. My sister had a Harry Connick Jr. record with Tain on it. I heard it and liked it. I went out and bought a Wynton record because Tain was on it. I read the liner notes and ended up checking out Bird, Monk, Trane, etc. because of it. You might not like their agenda, or their media darling leader, but I believe that, overall, LC does a good thing for the general public.

[jazzgregg]

LC had Han Bennink, Willie Nelson, and a bunch of other people you wouldn't expect to see there last year.

Honestly, where is Joe Average going to hear about the music whoever without something like Lincoln Center? I mean, they might get lucky, but it's a gateway to the real stuff for a lot of people. It was for me. My sister had a Harry Connick Jr. record with Tain on it. I heard it and liked it. I went out and bought a Wynton record because Tain was on it. I read the liner notes and ended up checking out Bird, Monk, Trane, etc. because of it. You might not like their agenda, or their media darling leader, but I believe that, overall, LC does a good thing for the general public.

Let's agree to disagree. The fact that Han was there I'm sure had nothing to do with Wynton.

It may, from time to time, lead people to other Jazz, but I think it hurts Jazz and the creative artists more than it helps. It is precisely his agenda that is hurting the actual Jazz community. This is not to mention the danger that someone may like the LCJO version of ALS better, because I'm sure it will be more inside as it is.=) It's too bad we can't do an experiment- after the ''performance' of ALS by WM and his cronies, see how many copies of the actual ALS are bought. Then sold to used stores.

Again we come upon the 2 sides to the WM debate:

1. He's bringing (any kind) of Jazz to the masses which is a good thing-Jazz needs the exposure.

2. He's misleading people (knowing they will listen to him) and taking money and attention away from modern players. When someone with his 'staure' in the perceived Jazz community says something, the general publis thinks he is the be all and all. Why do they think that? Because Wynton himself told them so.

For me, alot of it has to do with the presentation. Look at it like this. The President of the United States said there were WMD's in Iraq. Look at how many idiots believed him just because of who he was, i.e. the President. If Hans Blix came on tv and said it, people would've been like 'who the hell is THIS guy?'.


G

[capnrusty]

Just go to one of his shows or hang around NY. He's an easy guy to talk to and I'm sure he'd be willing to talk about whatever you like.

[capnrusty]

I really don't think he considers himself the spokesman for jazz. I think that title has kind of been placed upon him. Maybe it's because of the Ken Burns movie, in which case, Burns would be the one to blame. Wynton just has strong beliefs and he's not afraid to speak his mind. It just so happens that the press is always listening. People would probably hate me more than they hate Wynton if the mic was always on me. The sad thing is, to those who don't know jazz at all, Jamie Cullum or Chris Botti are more jazz spokesmen than Wynton is. *shudders*


As far as his records go, I like "Black Codes" and "Blues Alley," but my favorite is the Live Vanguard box set. The Tain, Hurst, Roberts rhythm section makes that Blues Alley record. I'm really not crazy about Wynton on that, but the rhythm section is killing. I think Wynton sounded better with the septet. Also, I think the septet was more swinging than the Blues Alley band (though less fiery). They had a more varied repertoire, as well. I like the New Orleans influence on tunes like "Jig's Jig" and "Uptown Ruler." In a lot of ways, I think the septet was a better matched band than the Quintet with Branford. Herlin sounds more like Wynton's drummer than Tain does. Tain's definitely Branford's guy. Also, I think Wes Anderson and Todd Williams complimented that music better than Branford did. It seems too tame for Branford, but I like how the other guys sound with the septet. The only one I'm not crazy about is Wyclef. I'm not really a trombone lover, though. He plays the crap out of blues, I must say, but that's all I really like. The septet is the septet...it doesn't sound like anyone else...not Ellington, not anyone...I think it's his most personal and unique sounding band, especially on that live box set.

After the septet stuff, I'm not too crazy about most of his records. I don't like the new quartet stuff (with Ali Jackson or Farnsworth) and I don't listen to the big band stuff, though I like to hear the arrangements now and then. I do think he's a damn good arranger. He gets a lot of neat effects out of the band. He can write a very visual piece of music when he wants to. But, overall, I'm not into the LCJO stuff, but I'm not really much of a big band guy anyways.

And, yeah, get "Monuments." It's Jackie's disco jazz album featuring the tune "Dr. Jackyl and Mr. Funk." It's the worst album ever, but it's a really funny listen. Even the album cover is hysterical. God, that's a horrible album, quite possibly the worst album ever... :)

[capnrusty]

Oh yeah, and I don't think Wynton (from any era) could be called a "bop" trumpet player. He's even less of one than Woody Shaw was, who also couldn't be called a bop trumpet player. Heck, I think even Freddie, Lee, and Charles Tolliver are kind of a stretch.

[capnrusty]

Sorry to hear about your friend, Drad-Dog. I hope he gets better soon. :(


"A Love Supreme" is on powerful piece of music, for sure. It's my favorite album of all time (the Trane one, of course). Where people go wrong is believing that it is a more sacred piece of music than anything written or performed by any of the other masters of jazz music. Paul Gonsalves poured his heart and soul into Duke's "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue" on that live at Newport record. Would anyone trash Wynton and James Carter for performing that piece? No, most likely they wouldn't. Would their performance rival that of the original? No, most likely it wouldn't. That was a concert where all the stars and planets (and other fruity cosmic stuff) aligned just right. That moment can never be duplicated. It's gone. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try.

Surprisingly, LCJO playing ALS took far less bashing than when Branford's band decided to play it. When asked why they would dare touch such a sacred work he said something like (heavily paraphrased), "it was a learning experience. It was challenging and good for the band. We were a much better band after playing it for a while." Maybe Wynton is thinking along similar lines.

Like the Duke/Gonsalves example, there's no way anyone s going to come close the playing ALS as well as the original, but that doesn't mean that people shouldn't try (and learn from trying). And as far as this whole "pure of heart" thing goes....who's to judge who is and who isn't? Wynton was pure enough of heart to be hired by Elvin Jones, the drummer on ALS. Heck, Wynton even recorded ALS with Elvin (with no protest from Elvin). If it was okay with someone who actually played with Trane on ALS, why shouldn't it be okay with any of us?

Now, the one thing that does annoy me is when people will play one movement at a gig. If you're going to do it, dammit, be ready for it and do it right.

ALS is one amazing piece of music, but think about this...we play Duke Ellington tunes all the time...and tunes recorded by Bird, Pops, Sidney Bechet, Monk, Ornette, etc. We're they any less pure of heart than Trane? Did they not pour every ounce of themselves into their music? Should ALS be put on a pedestal above anything and everything recorded by the other musicians I mentioned? Is playing Monk or Ornette tunes any less daunting of a task? As an acquaintance of mine says, "Any time we play this music. ANY TIME, we have a tough act to follow. Even on our own music."

[capnrusty]

I have an honest question for you guys...

What is it exactly about Wynton's message that offends you so much? I mean, I've heard most of it before from numerous people, but I'd like to hear about it from you guys. Thanks. :)

[jazzgregg]

Just a few things, since Drad's post sums up the power of ALS.

If you go back into this thread, I and a few others put forth our objections to Wynton, which is what I said at the onset of this new Wynton discussion. It's in the first half I think.

I personally bashed Brantford for doing ALS (also in the thread here) so that line of argument doesn't work on me=).

There is a difference between pouring your heart and soul into something (we ALL do that with our music, our compositions) and writing a modern day spiritual for God. IMO, it IS a more sacred piece (so are Duke's sacred works, for that matter) so people don't go wrong in thinking so, they HEAR that in it. ALS isn't about OUR purity, it's about Trane's, his selflessness, his sacrifice. If someone wants to capture what Trane et. al did on that record, write your own, Trane already said it all. It isn't about a task, it isn't that it's a difficult piece of music! It's more than that, and I felt that was obvious, but I guess not.

Covering ALS is like trying to paint Picasso's Guernica- there's too much involved besides mere paint that you should just leave it alone, respect it. On one hand, yeah, it's just a piece of music, but then again, Rodin's 'The Thinker' is just a bunch bronze.

Elvin also recorded with Jan "Miami Vice' Hammer. Everyone makes mistakes, or wants to get paid=)

Other than that, I'll stand by Drad's assesment of the WM situation. Be well, buddy.

G
(edit- I just remembered, I'm also p****d at Herlin for ruining what could've been a great album by one of my faves, Italian alto player Stefano DiBattista.)

[capnrusty]

There is a difference between pouring your heart and soul into something (we ALL do that with our music, our compositions) and writing a modern day spiritual for God. IMO, it IS a more sacred piece (so are Duke's sacred works, for that matter) so people don't go wrong in thinking so, they HEAR that in it. ALS isn't about OUR purity, it's about Trane's, his selflessness, his sacrifice. If someone wants to capture what Trane et. al did on that record, write your own, Trane already said it all. It isn't about a task, it isn't that it's a difficult piece of music! It's more than that, and I felt that was obvious, but I guess not.

Covering ALS is like trying to paint Picasso's Guernica- there's too much involved besides mere paint that you should just leave it alone, respect it. On one hand, yeah, it's just a piece of music, but then again, Rodin's 'The Thinker' is just a bunch bronze.



If were supposed to learn by emulating our musical idols, what better way to learn than by tackling something as heavy as ALS? I seriously don't think that anyone who plays it expects to say even half as much as Trane, but process is what's important, not product.

Techinically speaking, no, it's not difficult on a surface level. Trying to match the emotional intensity of the original is what makes it one of the most challenging pieces a jazz musician can play, which is all the more reason to play it if one feels that he or she is ready. Too much of today's jazz is devoid of emotion. Maybe more people need to start playing ALS. ;)

Regarding the spiritual thing...I'm sure once Trane became saved/found spirituality (or whatever), every piece he wrote was written for God. Is "Dear Lord" taboo, too? Same with Bach...sure everyone has played Bach, but maybe some musical police force should have stopped them in the beginning...

As far as the visual arts go, I'm no expert. When I went to the Matisse museum last summer, I was struck by his attempts at copying older artists. Sacred paintings, too (don't ask me which ones...). I seriously didn't know he possessed the technique needed to do it. Of course, those aren't what he'd consider his finest works, but it's another example of process over product.

Finally, if Alice Coltrane gave Branford her blessing, and even performed ALS with him and Ravi, why should we have a problem with him playing it? Looks like the two closest people to Trane deemed Branford "pure of heart" enough to play it. Actually, I'd like to hear her take on this...

re: Wynton...I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. Perhaps I'll read some of the earlier posting. Maybe I'll have my buddy that plays here and there with Wynton come give his input on this. We'll be able to hear the perspective of someone with firsthand knowledge of the situation then. If nothing else, it'll liven this joint up a bit. :)

[finnhiggins]

re: Wynton...I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. Perhaps I'll read some of the earlier posting. Maybe I'll have my buddy that plays here and there with Wynton come give his input on this. We'll be able to hear the perspective of someone with firsthand knowledge of the situation then. If nothing else, it'll liven this joint up a bit. :)

I really hope that pans out, warn me in advance via PM and I'll be sitting here with popcorn cackling as the sparks fly!

[OZjazzer]

Look, I'm not as deeply involved in this ALS discussion as many of you but here's my take on it.

To me, Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme' was always a performance much more than a composition. In many ways it's simply a framework that four really remarkable musicians used to say something really profound. I think many of us understand that ALS isn't simply another 'Porgy and Bess' crammed full of great 'songs', it's a sketch, uniquely thought out to fit the improvisational gifts of four great players who had reached this point, at this particular time.

Drummer Elvin Jones says Coltrane "never wrote out any music for us. When he played we more or less had to imagine, or feel, how to interpret the song. And it got to the point where I felt I was almost part of his mind, almost telepathic in a way."

Personally I was really disgusted with Branford's DVD effort. By association, and doing it with the same instrumentation, he elevated himself into the same rarified air as Coltrane. They even had the lights turned down like they did on the original recording. IMO this performance diminishes the power of the original, and, more disturbingly, elevates the new performance to heights it hasn't earned, and doesn't deserve. It's akin to re-painting Van Gough's 'Yellow Chair' with brighter colours.

Capnrusty I love your debate on all of this (and our musical tastes are probably very similar) but I think your other example was'nt a good one for much the same reason. You said Paul Gonsalves poured his heart and soul into Duke's "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue" on that live at Newport record. Would anyone trash Wynton and James Carter for performing that piece? No, most likely they wouldn't. Well I would. Again, to me it was a performance they are trying to steal, not a song. According to many even Gonsalves and Ellington failed to recreate the moment even though everybody wanted it, and they tried. It's like that first kiss I guess.

Re-creations really worry me even when it's more tangible big band stuff. The recent Phil Woods 'Unheard Herd' is just another example. They play Shorty Roger's 'Keen and Peachy' really very well, until you compare it to the original. The original (Four Brothers) Herd just kicked butt big time. The solos were better, the ensemble was tighter, it was a VERY exciting band, so why release a competent, but pale imitation? Who wins? Who will bother to seek out the original? The reputation of the original band slides down a notch. Not wanting to pick on Woods who is a great player, but the re-hash of the famous 'Art Pepper Plus 11' recording was the same. Nice recording until you compared it to the original which really was better in every way.


ONCE MORE WITH FEELING - WHY I WORRY ABOUT WYNTON.

His part in the Ken Burns Jazz Series. Burns, who by his own admission, knows zilch about jazz, relied on his experts who were, in the main, Marsalis and Crouch. IMO the obvious bias of these two guys permeated the whole series. The great white jazz players and bands were given little, and in some cases no credit for their contribution to jazz. Evidence suggests Marsalis was one of the main instigators of this bias.

If this show was a one off, never to be repeated doco on jazz, no-one would care. But as I understand it, this series has become the reference point for much jazz education in the states other countries. By constant repetition in schools and colleges, these biased views are elevated to the status of historical fact. They have re-written the history of jazz for god's sake, got a third of it wrong by ommission and elevated Wynton to the position of jazz spokesman to the world. Yes, some of us get angry about that.

[capnrusty]

Again, don't hate the playa, hate the game. If someone payed you a bunch of money for your honest opinions, you would take it, right? I would. Heck, no one's paying you know and you're documenting your honest opinions on the internet. It's not Wynton's fault that the general viewing public has made this the goto video history of jazz. If anything, the Wynton detractors should really be complaining about Ken Burns himself, but that doesn't seem to happen for some reason...

[jazzgregg]

You know, I'm done with this WM debate, I was done with it pages ago, we all were. OZ just made a very definitive statement and to that, I will add a few more points, then that's it.

-Bach et/ al were forced/paied/hired to compose religious works, Trane was not.

-Wynton was an issue well before, the Burns thing. Well before. KB has nothing to do with it.

- If you are looking at ALS like a tune, you are wrong (IMO, I know)

-As I already said, if it's process to be gained from ALS, write your own damn spiritual suite and try for the same emotion/feeling message, learn from THAT. If I want to show my loyalty to God, I probably wont re-write the bible, but in blue pen.

-You underestimate with Matisse that what was on display were essentially, his 'practice' canvases, much like Bill Evans' practice tapes are released posthumously and revered, so are ANY works by the great artists.

- I too would like to hear Alice's take on it. Could it be that she was just happy that someone was doing it and thereby,(no matter who or how crappy) essentially giving more recognition to Trane? Who knows.

-Capnrusty, bring your buddy in, absolutely, but what firsthand knowledge will he have? Will it be different than in the interviews and stuff we've heard from others, first hand? I'm all for any other input, but the bottom line is this": We are p******d at WM because he is what he is, and is doing what he's doing, ain't no explanation out of that for me, but from WM.

And with that, I'm done with the WM conversation.

G

[Drad-dog]

Gregg, Rusty, Oz,

You guys are my heros. Wont be around for a few days. Hope the discussion is as lively and revlavent when I return.

[The.GuessWho]

Again, don't hate the playa, hate the game. If someone payed you a bunch of money for your honest opinions, you would take it, right? I would. Heck, no one's paying you know and you're documenting your honest opinions on the internet. It's not Wynton's fault that the general viewing public has made this the goto video history of jazz. If anything, the Wynton detractors should really be complaining about Ken Burns himself, but that doesn't seem to happen for some reason...

Even IF the game was all wrong and the players wasn't (and I think Wynton said lots of disgusting stuff way before the Ken Burns documentary), then anybody with decent morals wouldn't play the game!

Concerning ALS: None of is Trane, none of us did/lived/thought/expreioneced the things he did, so all our tries at copying him are doomed to fail, IMO. This is true for any piece of art (might be as big as a suite, just a tune, or only some little phrase), once one's purely trying to copy something, it will never end up as great as the original. It is possible to successfully "copy" things, though, but in the process of doing so, the things usually come out altered and changed.
For example I can't stand most cover songs on the radio, but when Phil Collins covered "Can't Stop Loving You" I liked it, because it DIDN'T sound like the original, rather he had put his own "fingerpring" on.

One more thing: Who is Branford trying to impress by turning the lights down while performing ALS? I always thought he was the good one in that family, somebody who actually cared about the music... But after reading this and a comment he made concerning the Miles-Wynton-Incident, I am not so sure about this anymore.

[capnrusty]

After reading his comments about the Miles thing, I now think Wynton was totally justified. This is not a friendly business, especially when a lot of those old timers were involved. Things were different in their day. Somehow, we've turned into a bunch of crybabies. Until you get on the stand with heavyweight cats from that era, you'll never really know. A lot of them know exactly how to exploit a young musician's emotional weaknesses.

Are there any Michael Carvin students here?

And what the hell do lights have to do with music? I think you guys are grasping at straws here on that one.

[The.GuessWho]

I was referring to this:

“It was interesting thing when the bully got bested when Wynton walked on the stage in Vancouver and Miles cut off the band. People always said Miles Davis was the authority but the authority is the one that plays the most not what says the most and Miles cut the band off because Miles already knew what Wynton knew – Miles couldn’t play the trumpet anymore. And Miles wasn’t going to stand there and have Wynton tear him to shreds. But if Wynton was the punk he said he was, he should have played; it should have been easy.”

And the way I read it, Branford is talking mainly about chops here, while music has always been about MUSIC to me...

[capnrusty]

I was referring to this:

“It was interesting thing when the bully got bested when Wynton walked on the stage in Vancouver and Miles cut off the band. People always said Miles Davis was the authority but the authority is the one that plays the most not what says the most and Miles cut the band off because Miles already knew what Wynton knew – Miles couldn’t play the trumpet anymore. And Miles wasn’t going to stand there and have Wynton tear him to shreds. But if Wynton was the punk he said he was, he should have played; it should have been easy.”

And the way I read it, Branford is talking mainly about chops here, while music has always been about MUSIC to me...


Yeah, exactly. Have you listened to Miles' music from that era?

[The.GuessWho]

OK, you got me there :P

I don't like Miles after In A Silent Way at all... But still: When he wanted to say something on his instrument, it was always something interesting (not nescessarily full of chops, but nonetheless). The music itself was terrible (OK, sticking my neck out ^^), but Miles contribution to it COULD still be great.

[capnrusty]

- I too would like to hear Alice's take on it. Could it be that she was just happy that someone was doing it and thereby,(no matter who or how crappy) essentially giving more recognition to Trane? Who knows.

And with that, I'm done with the WM conversation.

G


Cool. I'm fine with that. Don't feel like you need to talk about WM anymore. I'm still game if anyone else does, though. :)


regarding Alice...is it so hard to believe that either her or Elvin might have actually enjoyed playing/hearing the other takes on A Love Supreme? You seem to have painted a desperate picture for both of them, Elvin wanting money and Alice wanting more recognition for her dead husband (who really doesn't need the recognition because everyone knows he was the baddest of the bad). Sine both have endorsed their respective (involvement in each) project, one should probably assume that they were actually into it before creating excuses for why they had/needed to do it.

[capnrusty]

OK, you got me there :P

I don't like Miles after In A Silent Way at all... But still: When he wanted to say something on his instrument, it was always something interesting (not nescessarily full of chops, but nonetheless). The music itself was terrible (OK, sticking my neck out ^^), but Miles contribution to it COULD still be great.


Some of it is great. I just think he struck out WAY more than he hit a homer with that stuff, especially right when he got back into the game (around when that incident happened). That's why he needed those muscley sax players he hired. He played right to the end, though and, as bad sounding as it was, that's pretty admirable.

[jazzgregg]

Cool. I'm fine with that. Don't feel like you need to talk about WM anymore. I'm still game if anyone else does, though. :)


regarding Alice...is it so hard to believe that either her or Elvin might have actually enjoyed playing/hearing the other takes on A Love Supreme? You seem to have painted a desperate picture for both of them, Elvin wanting money and Alice wanting more recognition for her dead husband (who really doesn't need the recognition because everyone knows he was the baddest of the bad). Sine both have endorsed their respective (involvement in each) project, one should probably assume that they were actually into it before creating excuses for why they had/needed to do it.

I don't want to talk about WM anymore because I'm repeating myself and have been since we stated this again, capn. On the other hand, I could participate by quoting myself from earlier in the thread=)

Also, I wasn't painting any pictures, I was merely offering SOME sort of possibility for the 2 of them to want to hear WM play ALS. As far as I'm concerned, it's very confusing. An equally plausable explanation is that they (Alice and Elvin) went temporarily insane, brought on by the invasion of minature giant space monkeys. You see? I have NO IDEA why they would sanction it and maybe they thought it seemed like a good idea at the time, before they heard the result? Who knows, but either way, I don't think they would've been terrificlaly happy with the outcome. IMO, the space monkey explanation is as good as any other.

G

and oh yeah, I've said before that I think Miles 80's stuff is total garbage, lame and beneath him. Even said it on this thread too=) I wouldn't criticize his desire and am not talking about his playing, but the music itself was, IMO just horrible.

[capnrusty]

hahahahahaha :)

:)

[capnrusty]

(Alice didn't "sanction" WM playing, btw. She was involved with the Branford DVD. Apparently, she liked their performance of it enough to hire Branford, Tain, and Revis (and Ravi) to play it with her a few months later)

[Loge]

Hey, guys. Just thought I'd stop back in for a moment to post the address of this site that displays around 1000 Blue Note album covers. Terriffic graphics and a lot of history.
http://www.pixagogo.com/7180565202

Loving the discussion going on. Amazed to see that Wynton's "back in the news" on the thread. Greetings, capnrusty! Enjoying your posts and opinions. Nice to see another fine contributor on board.

Keep it civil, guys (heh,heh).

Later,
L

[OZjazzer]

Hey, guys. Just thought I'd stop back in for a moment to post the address of this site that displays around 1000 Blue Note album covers. Terriffic graphics and a lot of history.
http://www.pixagogo.com/7180565202

Loving the discussion going on. Amazed to see that Wynton's "back in the news" on the thread. Greetings, capnrusty! Enjoying your posts and opinions. Nice to see another fine contributor on board.

Keep it civil, guys (heh,heh).

Later,
L

Fantastic Loge. It reminds me of another thing we lost when we went from LP's to CD's. Nobody will be collecting CD cover graphics. Unfortunately size does matter. Fantastic! I'm also a huge fan of all those great David Stone Martin covers for Clef.

[jazzgregg]

The good news:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0393058794.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Got this today. He wrote the books on the making of Kind of Blue and the making of A Love Supreme. Required reading, so I'm excited about this one too.

The bad news:
An absolute disgrace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QurfuJ8ryWc)
I don't care who he is or what he's done, this is horrible and an insult to Elvin, IMO. Discuss.

The old news: Thanks for those Blue Note posts. Back then, they really had it together, OZ is right, shame LPs are nearly extinct.

G

[mind_drummer]

The bad news:
An absolute disgrace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QurfuJ8ryWc)
I don't care who he is or what he's done, this is horrible and an insult to Elvin, IMO. Discuss.

G


Never liked what he (JI) has done anyway...

Hi Gregg - in few words, your MTL jazz festival appreciation ?

[T.L.]

Thanks for the "Bad News" Gregg!

Funny stuff! That was so not Elvinish -- square sounding, repetitive, a backbeat, and most obviously, just not jazz.....................I'm stating the obvious here, of course.

It's fascinating when when rock guys think they get jazz, eh.....

I liked the part where he said: "I'm more comfortable with some of these than others."

At least he mentioned "Different Drummer"!

[finnhiggins]

The good news:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0393058794.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
Got this today. He wrote the books on the making of Kind of Blue and the making of A Love Supreme. Required reading, so I'm excited about this one too.


I scan-read some of the Love Supreme book while drinking coffee in Borders the other week (ooh, la-de-da!) and wasn't overly impressed, I must admit. I don't know, maybe I react badly to music biography in general, but I just found it very heavy on the rich, descriptive words and a little thin on insight for the passages I read.

I'll definitely have a look at this, though.


The bad news:
An absolute disgrace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QurfuJ8ryWc)
I don't care who he is or what he's done, this is horrible and an insult to Elvin, IMO. Discuss.


No disagreement to be had here though. Yuck. I'm no fan of the whole "reduce this player to a rudimental orchestration" thing in the first place, but ELVIN!? Steve Gadd I can just about understand because a lot of his fills and grooves are specifically expanded from rudimental playing.

It's not like the playing examples sounded like Elvin, or the video had anything to offer conceptually in understanding him. Name dropping of the worst order, if you ask me.

[jazzgregg]

Mind- good to see you, man! The Jazz fest in a few words, eh? hmm...let me get back to you, but I'll start with 'Aldo Romano'. He's always been a fave of mine and they feted him nicely this year, though what he was doing playing with bore-a-minute-lick-guy Mark Turner is beyond me...

Finn- Kahns books are good, at least because that's all there is. Seriously though, he does tend to attempt to academisize things a bit but I think that's a reaction to just not writing 'Look, ALS and KOB are masterpieces, just buy them, will you, you'll see what I'm saying!?'. I'm not making any claims on on the new one as I've read only a few pages so far.

Reducing Elvin to these kinds of analyses is blasphemy, yes, but also, completely missing the point and outright not helpful but harmful.

G

[OZjazzer]

Gregg, are we growing apart (=)? Fabulous clip. Amazing, here's a guy who can make me, (or anyone with a half decent paradiddle) sound like Elvin in a two minute video. Not bad. And what about the way those drums are tuned, hell he's got the whole Elvin thing by the tail, coloured sticks and all. Hear that he's doing Tony Williams with just single stroke rolls next week and a couple of funk patterns the week after. God bless the internet.

[finnhiggins]

Finn- Kahns books are good, at least because that's all there is. Seriously though, he does tend to attempt to academisize things a bit but I think that's a reaction to just not writing 'Look, ALS and KOB are masterpieces, just buy them, will you, you'll see what I'm saying!?'. I'm not making any claims on on the new one as I've read only a few pages so far.

I think my main objection was that I saw one of my favourite meaningless-word-count-boosting tricks in there, in one of the early chapters. It basically did this trick.

* Introduce a comparison, explain why it is made
* Now explain why people shouldn't be making said comparison because the two things are not actually comparable

Now, I can understand why you'd do that if this is a commonly-drawn parallel between two things and it's a big mistake, but this was about comparing KOB and ALS as similar albums. Yes, they both share a similar position as they're the two most revered jazz albums around today. But I don't think anybody who's actually heard the two recordings (and some other jazz, even if it's not much) would make the claim that they're comparable or alike on many other levels.

It wasn't a bad book or anything, but that particular passage smelled too much of the exact stuff I do when I'm flailing to fill space. Since I don't tend to think of myself as much of a writer that worries me a bit.

[The.GuessWho]

Where's the Elvin in there? Usually I like YouTube, but I just had to learn that it can be used to spread a lot of cr*p.
If yomebody had never heard Elvin Jones play (a sin in itself ^^), and watched this guy playing ???, he'd get a completely wrong impression of Elvin.

I agree with Gregg: This is just disgusting!

[capnrusty]

hahaha

wow

that video is friggin hilarious


awesome! :)

[mattsmith]

I liked parts of the Love Supreme book, but found Kind of Blue generally more informative. I think the describing of masterpiece creation is very interesting, although you often find Khan stretching to provide full book length, when I sometimes wonder if a good full length article wouldn't have done the trick.

The Love Supreme book did reveal something interesting that I had always suspected. Apparently at the time, a number of respected jazz musicians were not as impressed with Love Supreme as they were with Coltrane's previous album Crescent, a work that even now gets a second look by critics as an underrated masterpiece.

With that said, an album with 4 ballads and a blues was never going to cross over like the energy continuity builder Love Supreme became. The unexpected influence of LS as a harbinger for extended prog rock efforts is also forgotten by our jazz colleagues, who see only the jazz influences. But it is generally the way of us jazz guys to not see the forrest for the trees. That's why we're all so rich.

Speaking of energy continuity, I am in agreement with the group regarding the Indyke video. An artist like Elvin Jones avoids piecemeal examination. Part of the Elvin allure is the altered state effect he creates from the ongoing motion of his best known extended efforts. This is of course, missed in this video, also meaning meaning that Indyke didn't get it.

However, I often find Indyke's masterclasses informative, and I believe him to be a helpful and sincere man. Like many others on this forum, I too have received his phone calls and sensed his sincerity. But in respect, I think his lessons are better suited for the more sychronized players like Colauita and Portnoy, where a cookie cutter approach does little harm.

[capnrusty]

I doubt that video is geared towards those who would do an in-depth study of Elvin's playing. Like Matt said, for those looking for a more cookie-cutter approach, it's probably a decent resource.

[mattsmith]

I doubt that video is geared towards those who would do an in-depth study of Elvin's playing. Like Matt said, for those looking for a more cookie-cutter approach, it's probably a decent resource.
With respect, I never said it was an appropriate resource for anything. I said that Elvin Jones could not be taught piecemeal. Piecemeal and cookie cutter are the same thing.
I inferred that Elvin Jones could not be broken down with such methodologies. Moreover, by using the clip and show method, you lose the obvious Elvin energy and continuity, which is for all practical purposes the heart of his style.

IMO, certain artists can't be segmented for creation of a method book. In fact, I think alot of the artists with method books written in their names are already ill represented by them, and are misinterpreted constantly. Look for example, how Class A thinks Gadd method books make him a master authority.

This is in stark contrast to rather famous methodologies like the Buddy Rich book, where the abundance of fundamentals makes it a valuable resource for intermediate players. I think people miss the boat here, and mistake the Rich book as an end instead of a means.

There is no method that will ever say Learn Elvin in Three Easy Steps. Again, look at Class As confusion about Gadd, and he's an easier drummer to superficially imitate.

[capnrusty]

With respect, I never said it was an appropriate resource for anything. I said that Elvin Jones could not be taught piecemeal. Piecemeal and cookie cutter are the same thing.
I inferred that Elvin Jones could not be broken down with such methodologies. Moreover, by using the clip and show method, you lose the obvious Elvin energy and continuity, which is for all practical purposes the heart of his style.

IMO, certain artists can't be segmented for creation of a method book. In fact, I think alot of the artists with method books written in their names are already ill represented by them, and are misinterpreted constantly. Look for example, how Class A thinks Gadd method books make him a master authority.

This is in stark contrast to rather famous methodologies like the Buddy Rich book, where the abundance of fundamentals makes it a valuable resource for intermediate players. I think people miss the boat here, and mistake the Rich book as an end instead of a means.

There is no method that will ever say Learn Elvin in Three Easy Steps. Again, look at Class As confusion about Gadd, and he's an easier drummer to superficially imitate.

I might be wrong, but I think it was just a way for that guy to show the viewer one Elvin-ish "lick." It's just a lick. Of course no one is going to get inside Elvin by seeing some guy on youtube (that's not Elvin himself). I meant it's a good resource for drummers that want to learn licks (not that I advocate it but let's face it, that's how a lot of people seem to do it).

I agree with you about the method book thing. There's no substituting for learning music off records.

[mattsmith]

I might be wrong, but I think it was just a way for that guy to show the viewer one Elvin-ish "lick." It's just a lick. I meant it's a good resource for drummers that want to learn licks (not that I advocate it but let's face it, that's how a lot of people seem to do it).

Again with respect/and not meaning to be contentious, if we agree that it's not the way to learn it, why do we advocate the showing of it, unless we don't get it. Everybody I ever grew up with hears the word lick, and just rolls their eyes. Max Roach once itimated that licks were something better suited for a lollypop.

Now, if one were to transcribe an entire effort, I could glean its value, since full motivic development would be realized. But we both know that no one is going to transcribe all of Elvin Jones's playing on Transition etc. Therefore, careful listening of the Jones recordings in their entirety is of course the most prudent course to learning this music.

In my limited experience /and not meaning you specifically, terms like licks are usually passed around by people like Wynton Marsalis...a technical master with a superficial soul, who sees licks as an end all, while displaying the unfortunate shallowness to fail in his recognition of such motifs constituting the beginning of a development proccess leading to innovation. This is in stark contrast to the mockingbird end result his licks provide him.

Like any other human being, I suppose the remains of Elvin Jones could be extracted for the $2.00 worth of fiber, minerals and water they contain, but such materials would not make the man.

The music of Elvin Jones is no different.

[capnrusty]

Again with respect/and not meaning to be contentious, if we agree that it's not the way to learn it, why do we advocate the showing of it, unless we don't get it. Everybody I ever grew up with hears the word lick, and just rolls their eyes. Max Roach once itimated that licks were something better suited for a lollypop.

Now, if one were to transcribe an entire effort, I could glean its value, since full motivic development would be realized. But we both know that no one is going to transcribe all of Elvin Jones's playing on Transition etc. Therefore, careful listening of the Jones recordings in their entirety is of course the most prudent course to learning this music.

In my limited experience /and not meaning you specifically, terms like licks are usually passed around by people like Wynton Marsalis...a technical master with a superficial soul, who sees licks as an end all, while displaying the unfortunate shallowness to fail in his recognition of such motifs constituting the beginning of a development proccess leading to innovation. This is in stark contrast to the mockingbird end result his licks provide him.

Like any other human being, I suppose the remains of Elvin Jones could be extracted for the $2.00 worth of fiber, minerals and water they contain, but such materials would not make the man.

The music of Elvin Jones is no different.

Hey, I don't advocate it but different strokes for different folks, I guess. If they're enjoying themselves learning licks, far be it from me to tell them to stop. I agree with how you chose to learn music. I learn it the same way. Some people don't though, and that's okay. Chances are I won't like their music but, again, I have no right to tell someone not to do it their way, especially if they enjoy it. Some people probably like that guy's Elvin "lesson." Cool. I don't, but I'm okay with people liking whatever they like and choosing to do things their way.

Here we go with the WM thing again...

I don't get the Wynton "licks" thing. He never struck me as a licks type player. Eric Alexander is a licks player. To me, Wynton is one of the few guys who choose to play melody. Yes, he does get into that overt technical display crap, but I don't hear that as lick playing, just high and fast stuff. Aside from that aspect of his playing, I think he's one of the most melodic players out there. In fact, that's why so many neo hard bop types hate his playing...not enough licks.

Are any of you guys in or around NYC?

[Drad-dog]

The bad news:
An absolute disgrace (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QurfuJ8ryWc)
G


I think this dude should take some of the duct tape off his snare drum head and stretch it real tight around his neck. Remember our "poseur" discussion a while back?

[capnrusty]

Yikes! I don't think he's trying to be either a., an authority on Elvin or b., a jazz drummer!


You guys sure do get riled up easily! :)

[finnhiggins]

Yikes! I don't think he's trying to be either a., an authority on Elvin or b., a jazz drummer!


That does rather demand the question as to why he's making instructional videos about Elvin's "concepts" though, don't you think? I mean, it'd be a bit like me making a video on the subject of DIY brain surgery and posting it on YouTube. But less funny.

[capnrusty]

That does rather demand the question as to why he's making instructional videos about Elvin's "concepts" though, don't you think? I mean, it'd be a bit like me making a video on the subject of DIY brain surgery and posting it on YouTube. But less funny.


I thought it was plenty funny. :)


Who cares? The guy can do whatever he wants to do. I just saw an old article in Downbeat explaining, in print, the "jazz ride pattern." What a load of crap! I could get upset about its corniness, but why should I?

Seriously, if I've learned one thing from making my living playing this music, it's that most jazz musicians are waaaaaaaaay too sensitive, waaaay too bitter and dark, and are waaaaaay to willing to hold grudges.

So I say let this guy do whatever he wants. We know where it's at.

[jazzgregg]

That does rather demand the question as to why he's making instructional videos about Elvin's "concepts" though, don't you think? I mean, it'd be a bit like me making a video on the subject of DIY brain surgery and posting it on YouTube. But less funny.
No no, it would be just as funny but equally tragic to those subjected to it, but in a different way.

I hear you Rusty (which I will now call you unless you prefer something else), and you're right. My issue is this-when people like that do stupid stuff like that and pass it off as the real deal, it confuses people, they think we do that. They might think that's a Jazz drummer right there. Like when Homer became a Chiropractor because of a garbage can, this guy becomes an authority with a camera, and people believe it. I put too much time in to what I devoted my entire life to than to have some 2 bit 'teacher' insult it by diminishing Elvin it like that. Don't you think REAL brain surgeons would be pissed at Finn for making that vid? Finn having the audacity to just, oh, you know, perform brain surgery... I think they would be angry. Not to mention that the vid hurts more than it helps, much like Finns proposed surgery. I am not joking, there's a 'Tony Williams' one as well. Need I say more?

By the way, I have a few suggestions as to your first victim since we've determined that for a number of reasons, it actually WOULD be a good idea to do...


G

[mattsmith]

Hey, I don't advocate it but different strokes for different folks, I guess. If they're enjoying themselves learning licks, far be it from me to tell them to stop. I agree with how you chose to learn music. I learn it the same way. Some people don't though, and that's okay. Chances are I won't like their music but, again, I have no right to tell someone not to do it their way, especially if they enjoy it. Some people probably like that guy's Elvin "lesson." Cool. I don't, but I'm okay with people liking whatever they like and choosing to do things their way.

Here we go with the WM thing again...

I don't get the Wynton "licks" thing. He never struck me as a licks type player. Eric Alexander is a licks player. To me, Wynton is one of the few guys who choose to play melody. Yes, he does get into that overt technical display crap, but I don't hear that as lick playing, just high and fast stuff. Aside from that aspect of his playing, I think he's one of the most melodic players out there. In fact, that's why so many neo hard bop types hate his playing...not enough licks.

Are any of you guys in or around NYC?

First of all, I hope I didn't come off too bad attitude wise on the last posts. Again, I see and understand your view, and I think we believe the same things on the Elvin points.
However, I just believe that licks players are superficially heard for what they are and contribute little to innovation, which is still the top of the mountain for a jazz musician.

RE: WYNTON...Respectfully let me suggest that you go back to somewhere from posts 140-200. I know I haven't been around for awhile. But I thought you brought this back up. I apologize if I am wrong about that.

We covered Wynton like a table cloth. Some who have posted have actually known him, dealt with him or observed him carefully over many years. Wer'e not stating these opinions by the seat of our pants. In my view plain and simple, he's a great technical trumpeter, but he's not an innovator, his jazz history knowledge is splotched with inaccuracies. Yeah he's melodic, but give me the Miles solos he's copping from anytime. And to use one of your own analogies, you are right, he's not pulling Clifford Brown out of his ass, he's pulling out a watered down version of what Freddie Hubbard thought of Clifford Brown, and trying to pass it off as his own thing.

Neo hard boppers don't like him because he doesn't create new music, and come on, he plays plenty of licks. I once heard him with Betty Carter where he played one Freddie Hubbard lick after another...note for note.

New wave jazz players don't like him because his political control of much of the federal allotment for jazz keeps them out of work if they don't play neocon jazz, and don't even get me started on the race issues. They too have been covered here alot.

Again, it's great you're here, and it's great to have your point of view. Just don't expect us to be superficial like the other forums when it comes to a decent jazz discussion. We have always seen this thread as a place where intellectual challenge and discipline is tough, and grounded in sound logic. We love jazz here, and we're fervent about its ongoing creative edge.

As for the Marsalis brothers, they can take care of themselves, and have probably already learned long ago that they will have to take it if they are going to constantly dish it out.

[OZjazzer]

[QUOTE=jazzgregg .....this guy becomes an authority with a camera, and people believe it. I put too much time in to what I devoted my entire life to than to have some 2 bit 'teacher' insult it by diminishing Elvin like that. G[/QUOTE]

Matt, Finn and Gregg have pretty summed this up but Gregg's point about this kind of '10 easy ways to play like Elvin' stuff IS certainly diminishing the talent of Elvin Jones. Plus this guy gets the added advantage of having a little bit of Elvin's fame rubbing off on him, by association. Bad deal all round.

[mattsmith]

Adding to the licks debate...

Here's something from Jack Dejohnette, who just celebrated a birthday.

" I don't play licks, licks are a series of thought out passages, therefore they are not elements true improvisation. "

[capnrusty]

Again...I do not advocate being a licks type of player, I typically don't like licks type players, but what people get enjoyment out of is their business. I'll state my opinions, but I'm not going to try to ram my ideals down anyone's throat (though I do like healthy debates).

As far as confusing people about what we do...the people who really want to know will find their way to the real deal, so I don't feel threatened by this video guy at all. If they don't find the real deal, that's cool too. We'd never have these scintillating debates if we liked everything we heard, so I'm all for it.


re: our good friend Wynton...I know it has been discussed too much already but, as long as it keeps coming up, I'll continue to state my opinions. Listen to him play now...he sounds nothing like Miles. Wallace Roney, who I don't really think sounds like Miles, sounds a lot more like Miles than Wynton does. And the Freddie thing??? I'm sorry, but he sounds nothing like Freddie doing Clifford or whatever. Maybe he did one on solo with Betty Carter but, as a whole, he sounds nothing like that. I say this with all due respect...listen to more Freddie and more (recent) Wynton and you'll see. It's like saying Nash sounds like Kenny Washington. They might play in a similar style, but someone in the know could never confuse the two.

[capnrusty]

You want to hear someone try to do Freddie, check out Jim Rotondi.


*edit: my spelling is getting worse as I get older :(

[Drad-dog]

Yikes! I don't think he's trying to be either a., an authority on Elvin or b., a jazz drummer!


You guys sure do get riled up easily! :)


Guilty as charged! ;)

[mattsmith]

You want to hear someone try to do Freddie, check out Jim Rotondi.
(
Rotondi primarily gets the rap for playing the famous Freddie squealing high notes. Wynton would never imitate such inflections. He merely plays the exact notes of the lick, cleanly as if playing the Hummel Trumpet Concerto.

[capnrusty]

Can you provide me with recorded examples of WM playing Freddie licks? I'm talking about more recent examples. A lot of us get caught up in the lick thing when we're starting out, and I doubt Wynton was any different, but he's a different musician now. Also, point me to a recording where I can hear Freddie play the licks (if they aren't obvious ones). Thanks. I'll gladly eat crow if I'm wrong.

[capnrusty]

Also, I don't understand what you're trying to say about neo hard boppers not liking him because he doesn't create new music. If anything, he's brought a lot more to the table than the whole Smoke/Cleopatra's Needle crews.

[capnrusty]

...and I don't buy the whole Wynton is racist thing.

[Drad-dog]

...Smoke/Cleopatra's Needle crew.

Pardon my ignorance...which is really quite astounding sometimes...but who is this?

[capnrusty]

They're clubs in NY that have their own little scenes, mainly rooted in hard bop, though I find Cleo's to be a lot looser than than Smoke.

I actually like Cleo's. Not crazy about Smoke.

[OZjazzer]

An interesting thought from Modern Drummer. I've always noticed that one of the major differences between jazz and classical music is the almost total disregard of dynamics in most jazz performances. Many are very 'one level' all the way and one of music's most powerful emotional devices is ignored. Drummers may be the worst offenders. Any comments?


MD columnist and jazz-great John Riley recently checked in with some thoughts about tempos and dynamics.

For years the great bassist Ron Carter has complained that the range of tempos that musicians were comfortable with has been shrinking: The slow tempos aren’t as slow and the fast tempos aren’t as fast as they were in the late ’50s and ’60s. I’d also been wondering about a possible shrinking of drummers’ dynamic range. The entire lower dynamic range seems to have been swept away in favor of more and more powerful playing.

Thankfully some drummers are playing beautifully, and powerfully, at whisper level. In the last year I’ve seen Brian Blade, Eric Harland, and Ari Hoenig really dealing with the music and exploring the entire sonic spectrum. More recently I attended a Steve Gadd clinic in Harrisburg, PA and was shocked at how softly Steve demonstrated all his classic grooves.

When I was in Gary Peacock’s band he insisted that the audience listened more intensely when the music was played quietly. When we played softly, they really did get more into the intimate details of the music.

[finnhiggins]

An interesting thought from Modern Drummer. I've always noticed that one of the major differences between jazz and classical music is the almost total disregard of dynamics in most jazz performances. Many are very 'one level' all the way and one of music's most powerful emotional devices is ignored. Drummers may be the worst offenders. Any comments?


Drummers probably are the worst offenders, since we tend to set the dynamic for a band by default. I think to an extent it's probably down to the shift in dominance in style for drummers - most drummers now are rock drummers for at least the first few years of their playing life, whereas in the past (prior to the 60s) most were likely primarily about jazz. Even jazz players who've come up since the 60s or later have famed "loud" players like Tony Williams to fall back on to excuse a lack of ability to play really quiet. Amplification has become a good excuse too, not many people actually bother to play upright without an amp these days so drummers again don't have to be able to drop so far dynamically to allow the bass to be heard.

Combine that with popularity of heads and tuning approaches that just plain don't sound good quiet... and... well, everybody plays louder.

I'm probably as bad as any, I've been introduced in the past as "... and on stadium rock drums, Finn Higgins!". Ouch. But I'm working on it.

[LDGuy]

As above, I dislike the use of "most jazz performances". Jazz is an extremely espressive medium in which dynamics are important. They're not always used, but to disregard their status by saying they're not present in "most jazz performances" is missing something.

This is of course, assuming we're talking good jazz, and not amateur stuff.

[OZjazzer]

As above, I dislike the use of "most jazz performances". Jazz is an extremely espressive medium in which dynamics are important. They're not always used, but to disregard their status by saying they're not present in "most jazz performances" is missing something.

This is of course, assuming we're talking good jazz, and not amateur stuff.

No, I'm happy to stay with "most jazz performances". Take just about any famous jazz recording for instance (Kind of Blue?) and compare it to practically any classical performance from a solo recital right up to 100 piece orchestras and watch the VU meters. It's chalk and cheese. Of course there are wonderful examples of dynamics in jazz but I would suggest they are very much the minority. Finn is right when he points to the amplification of the acoustic bass as one of the key causes of this overall increase in levels. But the other one is just simply a lack of sensitivity and the fact that everyone does play louder than 30 or 40 years ago. Funnily enough the performers who do seem to take dynamics more seriously, are singers. Many jazz singers are very good taking the full emotional advantage of volume contrasts in a song.

In short I think Riley's observation is spot on.

[capnrusty]

As much as people might say that we play too loudly now, I think the upper limit of dynamics is gone. With mics, horn players no longer need to develop big, Ben-Webster-like sounds. With amps, bassists don't need to develop huge, thumping sounds. My favorite bassist never uses an amp and has a huge sound. For the most part, you can hear him no matter how loud the music gets.

Don't get me started on the whole amped bass thing...as far as I'm concerned, bass players today are a bunch of wusses. Pull the damn strings like a man. The bass should have a percussive effect. Most amped bass players don't have it...no hump.

As far as the dynamics thing, I agree. We have a limited range, but on both ends. Personally, I feel like most of the groups I play in could stand to play a lot quieter AND a louder, thereby utilizing a vaster dynamic range.

I will say this, though...I'm not going to let horn players get away with playing like wimps. I mean, I'm not going to bash when I should be playing quietly...but a lot of these guys need to feel a fire lit under their asses. It happened to me...I got WAY over-muscled by one of the more well-known saxophonists of the day. At the time, I didn't realize how loud it would be until I got onstage with him. It was then that I realized that the whole upper end of my dynamic range was missing and I was not at all comfortable at that dynamic level. I can bet that hasn't happened to too many of us. Imagine a sax over powering a drummer? I didn't believe it until that day...

Interesting story....Elvin couldn't make a gig with Trane and Trane called Tony Williams to sub. Now, this is prime, Miles-era Tony...according to Tony, Trane annihilated him with his sound alone. Like, crushed him. At that time, TW had never worked on his sound. Trane's sound was too loud, powerful and broad for TW to handle. He said it was a wake up call for him and he immediately started to get his sound together. His first step was to get bigger sticks. So, that experience might have a lot to do with why we all consider him a "loud" drummer. It kind of makes me wish I had seen Trane play even more...

[finnhiggins]

As far as the dynamics thing, I agree. We have a limited range, but on both ends. Personally, I feel like most of the groups I play in could stand to play a lot quieter AND a louder, thereby utilizing a vaster dynamic range.


I've got to agree, and that probably goes for most contemporary bands and musical forms this side of death metal.

So much modern music has become absolutely dynamically dead. Everything is compressed to death, even in live performances, so you can't tell the difference between a drummer playing quietly and one belting the drums as hard as they can. I went to see Sigur Ros play a while back and while it was an awesome gig... there was one point where the drummer was playing with brushes and the amount of processing on his drums was making it sound like a nuclear bomb going off every time he hit the snare.

It sounded great for that particular approach and piece of music, but that's the thing - the technology is squashing the drums so intensely that music has to be written to allow this total lack of dynamic control. While it's nice for a flavour with one or two acts it's getting rather silly in rock music how compressed most bands in general are sounding live. The difference between that and an orchestral performance is night and day.

Jazz is at least somewhere in the middle and has thankfully managed to avoid much of the trend towards overcompression that's going on in engineering today.

[capnrusty]

I've got to agree, and that probably goes for most contemporary bands and musical forms this side of death metal.

So much modern music has become absolutely dynamically dead. Everything is compressed to death, even in live performances, so you can't tell the difference between a drummer playing quietly and one belting the drums as hard as they can.


Exactly. I had a false sense of security going into that gig I mentioned. When I heard the dude play with his regular band, it was loud, but it didn't sound abnormally loud. When I actually got onstage and played however...very rude awakening. I made me appreciate the guy's normal drummer 1000x more than I did already. It was SO difficult to play the things I was hearing at that volume and with and with that much intensity. It was a big wake up call for me. I was used to playing with singers and piano trios, so that kind of power playing (in jazz) was very foreign to me. It has taken me about two years to feel slightly more comfortable playing at such volumes and with that kind of intensity, but I need more actual performances under those circumstances to iron out all the kinks.

As far as dynamic drummers go, my favorite is Art Blakey. Very few played louder or softer than he did. I wish I could have heard him in person. That's a real dynamic range right there.

[mattsmith]

I just returned from a jazz club in Ann Arbor about ten minutes ago, where Dad and I went to hear Jimmy Cobb play with a very fine quartet. We had a front row table no more than eight feet from his 5 piece Pearl Sessions, a ride, crash and some hi-hats.

Beautiful control of volume, both top and bottom, and at no time did the volume of the drums intrude. This opened the door for everybody to hear the beautiful shadings he provided at every opportunity. It was quite a demonstration of taste and understatement, while still remaining the center of attention...a very hard trick to pull off.

[capnrusty]

On an unrelated note...has anyone heard Stan Getz with the Oscar Peterson Trio?

WOW!!

[OZjazzer]

On an unrelated note...has anyone heard Stan Getz with the Oscar Peterson Trio?

WOW!!


Yes. WOW and a half!! Getz just couldn't play a bad note despite all the stuff he pumped into himself. Evidently playing drums behind him was a revelation.

[OZjazzer]

I just returned from a jazz club in Ann Arbor about ten minutes ago, where Dad and I went to hear Jimmy Cobb play with a very fine quartet. We had a front row table no more than eight feet from his 5 piece Pearl Sessions, a ride, crash and some hi-hats.

Beautiful control of volume, both top and bottom, and at no time did the volume of the drums intrude. This opened the door for everybody to hear the beautiful shadings he provided at every opportunity. It was quite a demonstration of taste and understatement, while still remaining the center of attention...a very hard trick to pull off.

Thanks for that Matt (said with with more than a touch of jealousy). Yes it can be done, but it takes some doing for us ordinary mortals.

[mattsmith]

On an unrelated note...has anyone heard Stan Getz with the Oscar Peterson Trio?

WOW!!
Yeah, I always thought that Herb Ellis was the unsung hero of that effort. Talk about lockin' it in! As far as Peterson was concerned, Ellis was irreplaceable. When he left, Peterson did not consider bringing in another guitarist. Instead, Ed Thigpen joined and stayed until the mid sixties, and the rest was history.

[jazzgregg]

An interesting thought from Modern Drummer. I've always noticed that one of the major differences between jazz and classical music is the almost total disregard of dynamics in most jazz performances. Many are very 'one level' all the way and one of music's most powerful emotional devices is ignored. Drummers may be the worst offenders. Any comments?


MD columnist and jazz-great John Riley recently checked in with some thoughts about tempos and dynamics.

For years the great bassist Ron Carter has complained that the range of tempos that musicians were comfortable with has been shrinking: The slow tempos aren’t as slow and the fast tempos aren’t as fast as they were in the late ’50s and ’60s. I’d also been wondering about a possible shrinking of drummers’ dynamic range. The entire lower dynamic range seems to have been swept away in favor of more and more powerful playing.

Thankfully some drummers are playing beautifully, and powerfully, at whisper level. In the last year I’ve seen Brian Blade, Eric Harland, and Ari Hoenig really dealing with the music and exploring the entire sonic spectrum. More recently I attended a Steve Gadd clinic in Harrisburg, PA and was shocked at how softly Steve demonstrated all his classic grooves.

When I was in Gary Peacock’s band he insisted that the audience listened more intensely when the music was played quietly. When we played softly, they really did get more into the intimate details of the music.

On the one hand, I agree completely, on the other, I think that's BS.

First, all processing aside (Finn summed it up ) because we're talking literally on the instruments, at least, am. I'll be the first to admit/agree that engineers have no idea about recording Jazz, for the most part, I run across it all the time. But that's another thread...

Not including tempos, volume only:
First, why I agree has been summed up by Rusty et. al, with the reliance on gear now, there is less time put in to the nuances as there doesn't need to be. At the risk of saying 'kids today', well, kids today are not only looking to Elvin and Tony, they are looking to John Bonham too. It's rare to find a young kid brought up strictly on Jazz (as has been mentioned), most are converts, yeah, so they value volumes in a different way than the kids of 50 years ago. They are also not looking to the Vernell Fournier's and the Ed Thigpens at the other end of the spectrum either.

My Grandfather owned a jewelry store. He did all the math in his head, tax and stuff. At one point, he started getting employees that couldn't do that without a calculator(needed outside assistance). When he asked why they couldn't just do it, they replied that they didn't need to. Same idea.

Other than I really can't add anything else that hasn't been said already, well done guys, I'm just ramblingly adding to it.

Now, concerning tempo? I agree. COMPLETELY. It's rare that someone knows how to play very slow or very fast anymore. What people think is fast is often a joke. I think they are literally joking. Same with slow tempos. This REALLY irks me alot...Not least because many MANY drummers up-tempo playing is completely jive, all smooshy and unclear (but I've already mentioned this a while back here=). Same as volume- why practice up-tempo or dirge tempo if no one calls it?

Now, on the other hand, I think its BS and smacks of 'those were the days' idealism. I've seen MANY shows where things have gone from a whisper to a scream when it needed to, from the KJ trio (which did the best they could, what with now playing in halls-take that into account too) to Masada. When I see a band or musicians not using the full range, I'm not surprised, but I really can't wholeheartedly agree in my own playing and in what I've heard from the shows I've seen.

Now, as I've mentioned before, I don’t like to really provide my own experience as proof if it isn't asked for and to rather stick to the discussion, but here it is pertinent, I think. I studied with Joe Hunt, one of the QUIETEST drummers ever (also played with Getz). He did alot of stuff, but it was so sweet and quiet you barely knew it was happening. He MADE me play quiet. Oh, I wasn't great at playing quiet before hand, but I learned quick. (All drumers should play with unmic'd bassists to see how quiet they really are.) Then I studied with Ian Froman, one of the loudest Jazz guys you'll hear, but also, as quiet as Joe when needed. The point is, that kind of thing is normal to me, it always has been. Playing super quiet is as normal as playing loud. No, I don't mean 'bass solo' quiet, I mean 'are they done, should we be clapping?' quiet. I enjoy dynamics as a whole which is possibly another place where people go astray-separating loud and soft playing, when you need one extreme to have the other.

I knew a guy at Berklee who was a great Jazz drummer, but he was always too quiet (I was told by guys that played with him). Oh, you think that's not possible, think about it. That's equally as bad as being too loud (though I agree, drums are the worst offenders for that, for sure).

I associate, in general (but not completely as I mentioned above) the lack of dynamics with out and out crappy players. How could you not want to stretch to the ends of the spectrum? There are very few excuses for not using that kind of dynamics and I'd like to point out DRUM SOLOS. Did someone pass a law that they always had to be super loud and only occur on medium and up tempo tunes? Few drummers take the opportunity in a drum solo to actually bring it down.

Re: Getz, I like him when he has a more firey drummer behind him, like Roy.
Rusty: We agree on many things man and I'd particularly like to point out your 'bass players are wusses' comment-lol. I agree, and when you find one that isn't, THAT'S the exception! And I'm the same way when it comes to asses and fire-lighting. I don't play with horn players that are wimps, if I end up in a situation like that though, for whatever reason, I just bombard them until they learn or shut up, either is fine=).

OZ- if Kind of Blue isn't as dynamically diverse as what you want, what do you want. It ISN'T an orchestra, it's a Jazz band. Or did I misunderstand, it is late...

G

[finnhiggins]

I'll be the first to admit/agree that engineers have no idea about recording Jazz, for the most part, I run across it all the time. But that's another thread...


Well, it's certainly another subject. But you know in your heart this is the only good thread. All else is NaturalRaZ...

But as for that subject, you just reminded me of something I want to ask, and it seems the assembled audience here is absolutely the right one.

My other half is at school studying engineering. Not the bridge-building kind, the blowing-your-eardrums-with-140db-bursts-of-noise-in-the-cans kind. Anyway, for various assignments she needs to record, mix and master music played by musicians. Naturally that tends to mean me and whoever I can turn up in a hurry, playing whatever we can get together ASAP. We're off doing one of these things tomorrow, and due to time constraints (=I didn't get around to working anything out until last week) I'm taking in a trio and playing some rather poor jazz. I'll spare you all, don't worry.

But this post out of Gregg got me thinking - she's got some jazz in her CD collection and she gets exposed to a fair bit more in the car etc. But as Gregg mentioned, most engineers absolutely suck at recording and particularly mixing jazz. So, in aid of making sure she doesn't end up like this too:

What are your favourite jazz albums for sound alone? I don't care if you think the music is arse, but good music would help. I want great sounding records, folks! Preferably more recent stuff, too - not in terms of style, but just because a lot of the old 50s and 60s records have a real analog-gear kind of vibe that's probably not going to be too achievable on the gear she's got access to at school - ProTools and all that (not-very-)jazz.

Digging through my collection I ended up with Masada and The Bad Plus as bands that regularly seem to have the combination of jazz "naturalism", studio hyper-realism and giant balls that I'd be after on a recording. What do you guys like/admire sonically, and why?

[OZjazzer]

Gregg. No 'Kind of Blue' was just an example of a (great) jazz recording that is very one dimensional in a dynamic sense compared to the average classical recording. I guess it wasn't clear - I'm not sure it is now.

Finn's idea of jazz recordings with great sound is good too. How about bad sound - there are heaps of those.

[jazzgregg]

Gregg. No 'Kind of Blue' was just an example of a (great) jazz recording that is very one dimensional in a dynamic sense compared to the average classical recording. I guess it wasn't clear - I'm not sure it is now.

Finn's idea of jazz recordings with great sound is good too. How about bad sound - there are heaps of those.
OZ, no man, that IS what I thought you meant, so my question stands-what is your benchmark of dynamics?
G

[mattsmith]

Gregg. No 'Kind of Blue' was just an example of a (great) jazz recording that is very one dimensional in a dynamic sense compared to the average classical recording. I guess it wasn't clear - I'm not sure it is now.

Finn's idea of jazz recordings with great sound is good too. How about bad sound - there are heaps of those.
Oz, I think this statement would have to be qualified around what period of classical music you actually had in mind. Dynamic ranges were seldom agreed upon before the 20th century, and often had different definitions when the periods themselves changed. Yes, if you were speaking of Wagner's romantic style that was popular in the mid 1800s, then yeah Kind of Blue would seem one dimensional in the dynamic context that you are describing. But in the actual classical period which only lasted about 60 years in the 1700s/the Haydn/Mozart era/, dynamic ranges were very narrow...in fact alot more narrow than most of Kind of Blue demonstrates. In fact the lack of dynamics in the actual era known as classical was so obvious that Haydn was able to create a popular theme that went from mezzo piano and ended with one note of a modern forte, and call it Surprise because people thought it was a radical contrast.

I agree with Gregg about bad sound jazz recordings. There were plenty of those. Some of those early Miles Davis Prestige recordings were hit and miss for sure, I don't care who the engineer was. We also have hundreds of CDs around that were taken from LPs that had extracted from radio shows in unnatural ways, then artificially recreated in stereo. In some of those you can't even tell what kind of instrument you are hearin.' Forget what artist.

[OZjazzer]

I'll try another tack. Forget 'Kind of Blue'. Walk into your average violin lesson and you will hear as much dicussion about light and shade as you will about interpretation, tempo variations, intonation etc. Walk into your average (non-classical) modern drum set lesson and dynamics are not talked about to anywhere near to the same degree, if at all.

Play a jazz CD in your car and the overall sound volume of each track is basically the same (not as 'the same' as a pop recording but pretty well level in output). Play a classical CD and you'll be diving for the volume control to cope with the variations in volume. Matt I don't care about the periods (even performances of earlier works often have dynamics forced on them that were never indicated in the original), basically classical players, composers and record companies pay more attention to dynamics than most jazz groups and performers. It's a generalisation, but it's true.

In short I agree with Riley's original question. "I’d also been wondering about a possible shrinking of drummers’ dynamic range. The entire lower dynamic range seems to have been swept away in favor of more and more powerful playing."

[Drad-dog]

Oh, I have so many thoughts on the dynamics situation...Time does not permit me to expound my views...maybe later. For now:

Finn,

I'm not a sound afficionado (can you tell already?) but the Telarc recordings sound good to me. Modern stuff, they usually record classical music. They did quite well capturing some of the later live Ray Brown Trio stuff- now there's a group that had HUGE dynamic range. They also give technical info about their recording gear and techniques on the inside of the cd jacket. Just don't tell Jazzgregg- J. Hamilton's on some of that stuff! :)

[OZjazzer]

Telarc have done some nice things but IMO they really screwed up with the drum sound (Bobby Durham I think) on the Peterson Live at the Blue Note albums which were otherwise nice albums.

The most famous company for 'losing' drummers in the mix is of course Concord. Years ago I recall hearing the Gene Harris Quartet with Brown and maybe Hamilton and the drum sound was just so far down in the mix that when the 4's came, you could actually hear the engineer open the fader, it was so obvious. Suddenly the ride sound surged up into the mix just for the solo and then went again. Just last year I recall reading a Jake Hanna article where he quite clearly stated the the guy who owns/runs Concord has a stated 'keep the drums mixed down policy' and that's why Hanna a several other drummers won't record for them except in live situations where the engineer is not controlling everything.

[LDGuy]

Reading some of these very nicely structured posts, I realise I was probably at fault earlier when I made the comment. Kind of Blue, and albums of that era (i reckon before the 70s), were quite one dimensional dynamically. You guys are quite right. I think perhaps the thing i was mistaking for dynamical change was probably the use of tension and release, as the lines were structured. It gives the illusion of louder sounds, but in fact its just conflict happening, in terms of more notes, higher notes, playing more outside the changes, etc. The brain (or at least mine) can get a bit confused.

As for the tempos thing, I'm not sure I agree totally. I think the faster end of the tempo has remained at a very similar pace, if not faster in some circumstances. I think someone was making the comment about people not being raised entirely on a diet of Jazz, and there was some hard rock in there. I can't let go on perhaps the opposite end of the spectrum, the influence of the electronic music of the 80s onwards. As dub and jungle started to push the funk/hiphop beat as far as it would go with the invention of more powerful drum machines (and more crazy programmers), those types of very cool rhythms started to materialise. They're ever increasingly being incorporated into jazz. Those types of rhythms need very fast playing, and not just that, complex! It's not just a simple ride pattern played at "Countdown" tempos, it's a whole undulating construction writhing around itself. It's something i really want to explore - putting those kinds of rhythms on drums, rather than drum machine, but applying jazz sensiblities to them (utilising ride ideas, hihat of 2 and 4, but with backbeats infleunced by jungle). Of course, going even further than that is the music of IDM (damn i hate that term) musicians such as Aphex Twin, Venetian Snares, Squarepusher and others. A lot of that stuff isn't actually possible to play on drums, but the ideas are there.

But I think it's fair to say that modern jazz drumming (players such as Jeff Ballard, Bill Stewart, Brian Blade, Tain, Ben Perowsky, and many others) is generally a lot more complex than drumming of the 50s (look at an album like Davis' Four - the hihat very rarely moves off 2 and 4. The same couldn't be said of, say, Pat Metheny's The Way Up with Antonio Sanchez, the hihat's all over the place. The FEEL of the tunes is just different).

[OZjazzer]

While I'm on a roll. Loudness? Just this year I had a good example of contrasting sound volumes when the Pat Metheny Trio (McBride and Sanchez) performed here. Three days later I heard a full 100 piece symphony orchestra plough through Mahler's 5th symphony in the same concert hall sitting in almost the same seats. The Metheny thing was very loud right from the start, even his solo gituar stuff at the beginning was loud. When the trio played it got loud and basically stayed loud for the whole concert. There may have been a few 'less loud' moments but trust me, they were rare. The orchestra of course was loud at times, but a great deal of it was truly whisper quiet, you could hear every cough. In the Metheny concert you wouldn't have noticed a full-on flu epidemic. One assumes this is the way he wanted it but it just underlines what I have been trying to say about jazz sound volumes compared to classical performances. I love jazz more than classical music but I am constantly reminded that a lot of jazz players continue to ignore one of music's most powerful devices - light and shade.

By the way I was bored sh**less at both concerts but that's just me I guess.

[LDGuy]

I absolutley agree. Its something that should definitely be adressed, which doesn't seem to be.

Was the Metheny gig really that bad though? Surprising you were bored sh*tless. I've always thought of him as quite a vibrant guitarist with quite a lot to say musically. Although, the power trio in a jazz setting is pretty limiting.

My friend saw the PMG play the whole of The Way Up at the blue note in Japan a while back, best gig he ever went to apparently (well, i dont know, he's seen some great stuff).

[OZjazzer]

No LDguy it wasn't. According to Metheny fans it was good Metheny. It's just not my bag. Very aggressive. Everything was latin/rock/fusion based, no swinging stuff at all. They are all great players but it was SOOOO loud and so full-on all the time that for me it just ended up being noise. Sanchez was awesome but he never let up, and it got to sound very samey, very quickly. It's frustrating because on other occasions, with McBride in particular, I have been in absolute awe at his music making.

[jazzgregg]

No LDguy it wasn't. According to Metheny fans it was good Metheny. It's just not my bag. Very aggressive. Everything was latin/rock/fusion based, no swinging stuff at all. They are all great players but it was SOOOO loud and so full-on all the time that for me it just ended up being noise. Sanchez was awesome but he never let up, and it got to sound very samey, very quickly. It's frustrating because on other occasions, with McBride in particular, I have been in absolute awe at his music making.

Forget about the Metheny concert (ah, his best stuff is well behind him=), but you got bored during Mahler 5? Oz, man, wtf? It must have been bad or you must not like Gus, which is it?=)

I couldn't sit through a whole Metheny concert if I was on the gig.
G

[OZjazzer]

(=) DRUMMER WALKS OUT DURING CONCERT PERFORMANCE!!

A shocked audience watched as ledgendry jazz drummer Gegg Brennan walked out during his performance with the Pat Metheny Trio at Lincoln Centre last night. He is reported to have said "This is crap, I'm only playing serious stuff from now on". It is believed that Brennan's and his quartet are working on a version of Mahler's 5th symphony, with a drum solo feature during the famous adagio. "Not many people know that Gus was right in to jazz, and anyway Wynton's stolen 'A Love Supreme', so this was the only thing left" he added. Metheny was last seen trying to carry 14 guitars down Broadway and refused to comment.(=)

[jazzgregg]

(=) DRUMMER WALKS OUT DURING CONCERT PERFORMANCE!!

A shocked audience watched as ledgendry jazz drummer Gegg Brennan walked out during his performance with the Pat Metheny Trio at Lincoln Centre last night. He is reported to have said "This is crap, I'm only playing serious stuff from now on". It is believed that Brennan's and his quartet are working on a version of Mahler's 5th symphony, with a drum solo feature during the famous adagio. "Not many people know that Gus was right in to jazz, and anyway Wynton's stolen 'A Love Supreme', so this was the only thing left" he added. Metheny was last seen trying to carry 14 guitars down Broadway and refused to comment.(=)

LMAO!!! HYSTERICAL!!!

Wait....

Is that you, Stanley Crouch?

Seriously though Stan, who's Gegg Brennan?=)
G

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

(=) DRUMMER WALKS OUT DURING CONCERT PERFORMANCE!!

A shocked audience watched as ledgendry jazz drummer Gegg Brennan walked out during his performance with the Pat Metheny Trio at Lincoln Centre last night. He is reported to have said "This is crap, I'm only playing serious stuff from now on". It is believed that Brennan's and his quartet are working on a version of Mahler's 5th symphony, with a drum solo feature during the famous adagio. "Not many people know that Gus was right in to jazz, and anyway Wynton's stolen 'A Love Supreme', so this was the only thing left" he added. Metheny was last seen trying to carry 14 guitars down Broadway and refused to comment.(=)

Post of the week, post of the week.

That sounds like something you'd actually do Gregg. Haha.

[jazzgregg]

Post of the week, post of the week.

That sounds like something you'd actually do Gregg. Haha.
The Mahler thing, OH YEAH, very cool. I love Mahler, Uri Caine has done some reworking of his stuff. Not sure about the drum solo feature though...

As for Metheny, depends on the bass player=)

G

[mattsmith]

The Mahler thing, OH YEAH, very cool. I love Mahler, Uri Caine has done some reworking of his stuff. Not sure about the drum solo feature though...

G
Yeah, the Uri Caine redos are pretty interesting to say the least. Amazingly, he maintains the integrity of the Mahler pieces while pushing all possible limits, both musical and social.

He supposedly spent a year in research of Mahler before the product itself was even started, and I think that's why there's alot of honesty there, despite the blues riffs and the Brazilian stuff. Still, the merging of styles would have probably suited Mahler just fine. He often threw drinking songs, as well as Gypsy and Jewish music into his symphonies anyway. Why not jazz?

I especially like the New Orleans vibe present in the the funeral movement of Mahler's 1st. It works.

[jazzgregg]

Yeah, the Uri Caine redos are pretty interesting to say the least. Amazingly, he maintains the integrity of the Mahler pieces while pushing all possible limits, both musical and social.

He supposedly spent a year in research of Mahler before the product itself was even started, and I think that's why there's alot of honesty there, despite the blues riffs and the Brazilian stuff. Still, the merging of styles would have probably suited Mahler just fine. He often threw drinking songs, as well as Gypsy and Jewish music into his symphonies anyway. Why not jazz?

I especially like the New Orleans vibe present in the the funeral movement of Mahler's 1st. It works.
Is there anything you don't know, Matt? Mahler too? How is it possible to know and hear all this stuff at only 16, as well as practice?! When do you sleep?=)

G

[mattsmith]

Is there anything you don't know, Matt? Mahler too? How is it possible to know and hear all this stuff at only 16, as well as practice?! When do you sleep?=)

G
I have very learned parents who cram this stuff down my throat, I am a staunch underachiever in school/much to the dissapointment of the previously mentioned parents, and since the WFD finals, I have been relaxing and playing video games. Plenty of time to know a couple of bytes about Mahler.

[OZjazzer]

Is there anything you don't know, Matt? Mahler too? How is it possible to know and hear all this stuff at only 16, as well as practice?! When do you sleep?=)

G

Matt must be a twin. One does the practice while the other listens and reads. Mind you, I think you'd pick up a lot of stuff at the Smith's dinner table. But still it is amazing.

Gregg. Yes, you can call me 'Stanley'. This is the line of yours that made really my day "I couldn't sit through a whole Metheny concert if I was on the gig." Very funny.

[Drad-dog]

Regarding the Kinda' Blue thing (sorry to bring it up again, OZ) I think I see what you're saying about it being fairly one dimensional, dynamically speaking. I think it was that way on purpose. Maybe not so much by design but just because that's the vibe of the album. It is one tasty album, very subdued, very blue. It would have been out of character if they had included a screaming track or two. Might have compromised the effect of the whole album. But what the heck do I know?

It seems that many albums/performances are, in fact, one dimensional with dynamics. Even with players I really admire, I am sometimes dissapointed by their dynamic range. There's some dudes I play with (rock band) who can all really play. One of them is my pal with cancer (started radiation, keeping high spirits). Anyway, we always start our gigs on the quieter side to warm folks up. Usually, there aren't many people when we start so we play mellow for a while. What I'd like to be able to do with the band is play louder when the room heats up, even if just for a solo section or some accents, but then be able to take it back to the original volume. The night should rise and fall, build and release, dynamically. Then when the mood is right, kick into high gear and start wailing! But then, bring it down again so our slower, mellower stuff actually has it's intended effect. Instead, the night just gets progressively louder, even in between sets, so that no matter how hard I try, the band just keeps chugging along, until, at the end of the night, we're all dead tired and our ears are ringing and only the drunk people are still in the joint. (Okay, it's not really that bad)! It's like the rest of the band is waiting for me to play one loud note, and when I do, it's like their cue to crank up the volume.

It's a problem and even some very excellent musicians are afflicted. Maybe I just have a different idea of how a gig should go dynamically.

Gregg, can't wait to hear your Mahler treatment. You can call it "Mahler Smites the Heathens." ;-)

[The.GuessWho]

Regarding the Kinda' Blue thing (sorry to bring it up again, OZ) I think I see what you're saying about it being fairly one dimensional, dynamically speaking. I think it was that way on purpose. Maybe not so much by design but just because that's the vibe of the album. It is one tasty album, very subdued, very blue. It would have been out of character if they had included a screaming track or two. Might have compromised the effect of the whole album. But what the heck do I know?

I think you are spot on with this remark. Having an uptempo, really loud burner would have destroyed the whole vibe of KoB (and it might have put many potential buyers off ^^).

Concerning dynamics and tempos and whether or not they are used enough in today's music: I don't think it's all that much about the having the ability to do so, but one really has to find the dynamics/... where a certain melody or phrase sounds best.
It is perfectly possible to play Stella by Starlight at like 350 bpm and as loud as hell, but that doesn't mean it sounds best played this way... I'd much prefer for it far, far slower and having it played between piano and mezzopiano.
So: Yes, I agree these factors aren't used enough in today's music, but I blame the culture that turned music into some kind of competition. Once people realize it's all about music again, these "problems" will (hopefully) just disappear.

P.S.: Somebody asked about great recordings (soundwise) and like it or not, but most of Keith Jarrett's ECM stuff sounds fantastic!

[jazzgregg]

I think you are spot on with this remark. Having an uptempo, really loud burner would have destroyed the whole vibe of KoB (and it might have put many potential buyers off ^^).

Concerning dynamics and tempos and whether or not they are used enough in today's music: I don't think it's all that much about the having the ability to do so, but one really has to find the dynamics/... where a certain melody or phrase sounds best.
It is perfectly possible to play Stella by Starlight at like 350 bpm and as loud as hell, but that doesn't mean it sounds best played this way... I'd much prefer for it far, far slower and having it played between piano and mezzopiano.
So: Yes, I agree these factors aren't used enough in today's music, but I blame the culture that turned music into some kind of competition. Once people realize it's all about music again, these "problems" will (hopefully) just disappear.

P.S.: Somebody asked about great recordings (soundwise) and like it or not, but most of Keith Jarrett's ECM stuff sounds fantastic!

I agree with MOST of what you say, except I still maintain that tempos are not as varied as they coud be.=) Why? Well of course, if you're playing standards and no one calls a burner (which they don't), you don't need to know how to play one. The more important thing is that in most new music (i.e. originals) there aren't many people writing burning tunes. That's what I was talking about- if you never need to play it, you tend to think you don;t need to learn it (I personally don't think I need to learn how to flay a wild boar, probably becuase I haven't been in a situation where I've needed to yet=)

I've heard separate quotes from Bill Stewart and a few other 'top' drummers that basically say 'uptempo? Not very'. Not to say they can't, but that they aren't required to. Maybe people aren't hearing things that fast. Maybe people are lazy? Who knows. What I do know is that on this point, Ron, Riley (and OZ) are correct, people aren't and CAN'T play them. Listen to all of the contemporary guys like Potter, Sco, Colley, etc. No really burners on any of their albums as far as I recall. Fast, yes, turbo, no. Mehldau gets up there occasionally, but Rossy just poked his way through every third note anyway (don't get me wrong, that was his thing and I dig it). Why is it like this? again, who knows. To hear the real fast and slow stuff, surprise surprise, look to Europe.

I would also mention at this point that to me, playing fast or slow isn't about playing fast or slow, it's a colour, another texture and mood altering device.

The Jarrett ECM stuff? Man, I LOVE all that stuff and I'm a huge ECM fan. The detractors only know the smooth-y 80's and 90's stuff, I'd guess and couldn't imagine that in 1972, Garbarek could peel your face of like Albert Ayler. If we want to talk audio quality, I agree that ECM is a good subject.

G

[The.GuessWho]

I agree that most people don't hear things really fast (Why? Because they don't practice playing this fast presumably).

But one question remains: How fast is fast? I'd say the fast stuff starts somewhere around 320 bpm. Any comments?

[mattsmith]

With regard to tempos in Kind of Blue, I think it was the result of the theme album ideas that Miles was pushing back then. I don't think he gave alot of thought to how the music paced itself. I think he just surrounded himself with great musicians and let them work all this out themselves in a kinda subconscious way. Also, if we are to go with the old story of this album, Miles didn't even know what he was going to really do until he showed up at the studio, although some of the Kind of Blue concepts had already been explored on gigs.

Regarding tempo issues... I sincerely believe in today's times that alot of jazz musicians avoid uptempos for concern that other jazz artists are goin' to diss them for it. Oh it's juuuuust tooooooo faaaaaasssssst. It's not muuuuuuuuusical. I really believe this. In the last decade, faster music got rapped for supposed quality issues that were IMO, a figment of everybody's imagination. As a result, alot of new non Wynton jazz albums assumed the role of new age albums with hip chords, and ballad-athons without the harmon mute or the hip Gil Evans arrangement.

I have often heard that unlike other groups, jazz people are very concerned about how their music sounds to other jazz musicians first, and others second. Well, I think in this instance, it shows. With that said, this is probably the only opinion I share with Marsalis. He doesn't care what other people think.

[Drad-dog]

I can play time at 320 just fine, but if I want to play anything interesting or exciting, I have to slow it down to more like 300. Constantly pushing that boundary though. After about 360 or so I can't hold it together for the length of a whole tune and I start to drag!

[The.GuessWho]

I can play time at 320 just fine, but if I want to play anything interesting or exciting, I have to slow it down to more like 300. Constantly pushing that boundary though. After about 360 or so I can't hold it together for the length of a whole tune and I start to drag!

Just imagine having to play 150 choruses of Giant Steps at 360 with someone like Brecker...

[Drad-dog]

Oh it's juuuuust tooooooo faaaaaasssssst. It's not muuuuuuuuusical.

Yeah, this reminds me of the old fart music teachers that come into my store. 'I like my Bach and my Mozart and I don't like it too loud. I also don't like it done too fast or to slow and I just like it to be nice and pleasant. That is what music should be like. Beautiful. Everything else is for the unrefined, uneducated kids. Oh, and I DON'T like electric guitar.'

They just aren't adventurous enough. Sadly, it's not only a problem with classical piano teachers. A lot of jazz wanna-be's are like that too.

[capnrusty]

I can play time at 320 just fine, but if I want to play anything interesting or exciting, I have to slow it down to more like 300. Constantly pushing that boundary though. After about 360 or so I can't hold it together for the length of a whole tune and I start to drag!


You just have to do it a lot and learn to relax. I hate playing really fast stuff, but I work with a guy that calls tunes up to about 400 bpm (!!) and then takes long solos. It's brutal, but you get used to it. In those upper upper tempos, the best I can do is keep time. There comes a point where my comping gets kind of sketchy, but the cymbal is still there. For my money, Farnsworth plays those tempos better than anyone around right now.

[OZjazzer]

ONE more time. I have NO criticism of Kind of Blue (or KoB or should that be Cobb?) I simply used it as an example of jazz album that we all know that exhibits the usual lack of dynamics found in many many great, and not so great jazz albums. I used a famous one to make the point so that we were all singing from the same hymn book. I NEVER mentioned tempos at all in relation to KoB. It's interesting that when Miles continued to use 'So What', 'All Blues' etc. on gigs (the Blackhawk stuff for instance) the tempos went way up.

But talking about break-neck speeds, they are really only worth having if the entire band is comfortable at those speeds. Bass players in particular (in pre-amplified days) must have despaired at everybody soloing forever on a fast thing forgetting the they, and the drummer have to sustain the tempo for chorus after chorus. Many times I'm sure, fast openers were used as a show-off tune to impress the audience first up. Every US jazz group that toured here would start with some ultra-fast piece. Hubbard, Griffin, Woods, Art Pepper, Dizzy, Jimmy Smith, Peterson, Tal Farlow, Pass etc - they all did it to the point that I thought it was part of some kind of built-in performance ritual in the states (was it?). Frankly I need a couple medium tempo things to find out if my hi hat is still working (=).

Another funny thing about very fast stuff for drummers, is the kind of 'badge of honour' thing that goes with the "how fast can you play the ride pattern with the 'da-ding' bit still intact?". I'm glad to see many modern drummers will play combinations of straight four, and broken ride patterns in order to play more musically at fast tempos. The old 'grit your teeth' play the traditional pattern at fast tempos (which no-one can distinguish anyway) always seemed a bit silly to me. Thank god the old gits I play with rarely stray above 290.

Ballads? Now that's where we really sort the men from the boys, but that's another story.

[Drad-dog]

...I work with a guy that calls tunes up to about 400 bpm (!!) and then takes long solos.

Yikes! 400? Seriously, Capn, when he calls a tune like that, does the tempo ever fluctuate much? What's your honest assesment? Do you ever find yourself pushing the tempo back up to where it was when the tune started? Can you always hear when the tune starts to drag or do you sometimes just realise that suddonly you're playing slower- even just a little bit? What do you say to thoes who start to drag thoes tempos unkowingly? How can we stay correct? Assuming our hands don't just simply crap out, of course, as that is another problem alltogether.

I strive for perfect time, (most of the time). But how realistic is that really with the fast tempos?

[OZjazzer]

Yeah, 400 !!!!!. Thats about the speed of my single stroke rolls (=)

[jazzgregg]

Ok, well, first, Farns ain't neccesarily the man when it comes to tempos, he might just be the American, when it comes to those tempos=). As I mentioned, there are at least a dozen European cats that go there effortlessley (as the Europeans tend to play way up way down tempos much more).

Second, I personally never found hammering out the ride pattern exactly the same musically, period. Might as well hammer nails for 5 minutes, that kind of BeBop rigidity was indded more a show of 'balls' more than musicality. Of course Max and Mel Lewis did it to hang at those speeds, but really, they sounded musical doing what they did because they were musical drummers in the first place.

Third- I can't agree more, OZ, if the whole band can't do it, it sounds like crap.

Last- and I'm not just saying this, I don't know why it's difficult to play at 400 for some. In my experience, if you're relaxed, have good technique and, properly using the rebound to it's fullest and gliding over not hammering into the cymbal, there really is no need for a problem. The technique and stamina take work, sure, but if all of the above are happening, there's no reason not to be able to do comfortably. Sure, comping at that speed takes work because you need to conceive of ideas at that speed, not just speed up your normal stuff. This is, IMO, the most common fallacy about playing turbo speeds, you can't sculpt something if all you can think of is a painting. You need to see that sculpure and think of it as a sculpture, not a 3 dimensional painting.

OZ-slow tempos? Yeah, you know it brother. It ain't just 'brushes, slowly'. Same thing-you need to hear idea at that speed, conceive and think at that speed, not 'mid tempo, just slower'.. It's like the idea of thinking of modes as major scales with altered notes or as their own thing, i.e., the actual mode. Paul Motian is the all time ballad master, anyone care to dispute that?



G

[capnrusty]

Yikes! 400? Seriously, Capn, when he calls a tune like that, does the tempo ever fluctuate much? What's your honest assesment? Do you ever find yourself pushing the tempo back up to where it was when the tune started? Can you always hear when the tune starts to drag or do you sometimes just realise that suddonly you're playing slower- even just a little bit? What do you say to thoes who start to drag thoes tempos unkowingly? How can we stay correct? Assuming our hands don't just simply crap out, of course, as that is another problem alltogether.

I strive for perfect time, (most of the time). But how realistic is that really with the fast tempos?


He only calls tunes that fast when this one bass player is on the gig. If the time fluctuates at all, it's usually my fault, as this particular bass player as about as perfect time as anyone I've ever heard/played with. Honestly, if it fluctuates at all, it usually speeds up, which is totally stupid. The tempo usually stays pretty solid, though. I just relax and listen to the bassist. When I was in college, this bassist let me sit in on his bass lessons and I'd bring a cymbal, hats and a snare. He'd put the metronome on, clicking only on beat 4, and play a wicked fast tempo. At that time, I'd be all over the place but he never got off from the metronome, no matter how fast it was going. And clicking only on "4," no less...it was pretty remarkable...


As far as the dragging thing goes, it seems to happen most often on medium tempo tunes. I think medium tempos are the most challenging because some people hear the time a little faster than the tempo and some a little slower. When it's super fast, the tempo seems to stay in place better (unless the soloist has trouble keeping up-turns the time around, etc.). Slow tempos can be rough, but I think I'm better at slow tempo playing than I am at anything else.

What do I say to someone dragging? I usually just tell them to keep up. I find more people I play with tend to speed up more than drag. I guess it depends on the tempo.

As far as our hands crapping out, you just have to learn some tricks to give your hands a little break. Fills with doubles usually helps give you a breather. It helps to stay light on tempos that fast. Don't move your body too much, just enough to get the job done. You gotta conserve your energy.

[capnrusty]

Ok, well, first, Farns ain't neccesarily the man when it comes to tempos, he might just be the American, when it comes to those tempos=). As I mentioned, there are at least a dozen European cats that go there effortlessley (as the Europeans tend to play way up way down tempos much more).




Maybe everywhere else in America but NYC (and its offshoots)... but I can assure you you'll hear as fast of tempos as anywhere if you go to the right places. The Smoke guys call stuff waaaaay up there all the time. As far as slow tempos go, you're probably right. Not too many people call real slow tempos here.

[Drad-dog]

Yeah, come to think of it, I only ever blow it on the fast stuff when I try to play my slower stuff over it. There's some stuff I just can't do at 350! That's when I aught to be thinking of different things to play that wont distract me from the time. Even just quarter notes.

Now ballads, that's another issue. I use my feet a lot to subdivide the quarter notes (on the heels of the pedals so you can't hear it). Also the brush stroke is very important. You can't just slow down your medium groove. There's too much space between the notes!

Back to up tempos, here's a story jazzgregg with LOVE!

Was at the winter NAMM show this last January in Anaheim. Saw Joey Defrancesco with our man J. Hamilton. They did one screamer all night and when they did it, someone turned the beat around for about half a chorus. I couldn't tell who's fault it was but I saw the guys exchanging glances on stage. They were all listening so they got back on without any trouble. Do you guys think that happends all that often with the pros or is that something that happends just to us bush-leaguers? (I mean me and my jazz friends, not you guys :-) That was the only time I can remember hearing that happen on a show I paid 20 freakin' bucks to see! Then again, I see a lot of good shows where the band never plays very fast.

[jordanz]

Do you guys think that happends all that often with the pros or is that something that happends just to us bush-leaguers?

Well, I saw it just the other night. I was at the Stanford Jazz Residency and there was a concert with the Heath Brothers and a few others. At some point, the beat got turned around. They just worked around it.

[OZjazzer]

It sure happens here but then we are playing upside down compared to you northern hemisphere folks (=). It always surprises me that the soloist is rarely able to get back where they should be, once it has turned round. Invariably the drummer has to change. Of course the drummer then gets the blame. It's a tough world.

[jazzgregg]

Yeah, come to think of it, I only ever blow it on the fast stuff when I try to play my slower stuff over it. There's some stuff I just can't do at 350! That's when I aught to be thinking of different things to play that wont distract me from the time. Even just quarter notes.

Now ballads, that's another issue. I use my feet a lot to subdivide the quarter notes (on the heels of the pedals so you can't hear it). Also the brush stroke is very important. You can't just slow down your medium groove. There's too much space between the notes!

Back to up tempos, here's a story jazzgregg with LOVE!

Was at the winter NAMM show this last January in Anaheim. Saw Joey Defrancesco with our man J. Hamilton. They did one screamer all night and when they did it, someone turned the beat around for about half a chorus. I couldn't tell who's fault it was but I saw the guys exchanging glances on stage. They were all listening so they got back on without any trouble. Do you guys think that happends all that often with the pros or is that something that happends just to us bush-leaguers? (I mean me and my jazz friends, not you guys :-) That was the only time I can remember hearing that happen on a show I paid 20 freakin' bucks to see! Then again, I see a lot of good shows where the band never plays very fast.

I TOLD you so. I'll tell you EXACTLY why he did it too.

The Jeff Hamilton, 'mush' style of playing uptempos by just thrusting the stick into the cymbal really depends on the down beat for the sound, or rather, forces a heavy '4' sound because you aren't making any definition between the quarters and eighths. If you don't have control of WHERE your cymbal notes fall (i.e. are just shoving the stick at the cymbal), one wrong move and you're filpped over. Furthermore, if you don't let the cymbal time breath (i.e. float the time a bit, vary the pattern, accents, etc.), this will also facilite flipping it around because again, you aren't controlling the rebound and are not letting the time breathe. No question about it.

Incedentally, this is the most common reason the beat gets flipped around, from what I've seen (the second being the drummer's technique gives out/get's lost). Pro's don't usually do it, but it does happen (I've heard Philly Joe on more than one record, Max tread the line alot with Bird) depending on the technique you employ for playing uptempos. Look at the 2 examples, plus Hamilton and the way they play those speeds, it's the same heavy mushing, though with Philly and Maz, we're talking WAY uptempos and you can hear on the Brown/Roach stuff where Max had cut his teeth with Bird and could really burn up there by that point, no problem. On the other side of it, I'll pay anyone 50 bucks if they can find me an instance where Ian Froman turns it over.

Now, Joey D often plays ripping tempos, with people like Joe Ascione who's pretty adept at them too, so it likely wasn't Joey. Maybe Hamilton couldn't find a recording with Mel playing that fast to cop=)

If it were me, Drad good buddy, I would've marched up to our man and said 'I don't need to pay 20 bucks to hear a beat get turned around, I can get paid to hear it from my students'.


G

[Guillermo]

Ah... fast and slow... yes... unlike TEMPO "fast" and "slow" is an illusion.

That's right... time and intensity are LIKE COLOR... put a color in front of a light background and it will appear DARKER than what it is... put it in front of a darker background and it will pop up and be brighter.... YET it is the same color.

TEMPO is an UNRELATIVE variable in music, it is what it is no matter what you feel... yet everything MUSIC IS, is perception and perception can be tricked, induced, manipulated and is set by the mood... like a musician does with notes, we can do with time.

Let's take into consideration that "Kind of Blue" example... As I read, I was thinking, man, this friend has listened to this album and interiorized it... yet, has he listened to that same band playing LIVE?... aha... there the plot thickens.

Have you noticed how EVEN GREAT musicians live versions are so far apart in tempo from recorded versions?... after playing a fast intense song, and a soft one comes next, the overall effect of the gig affects the individual tempos of songs... that's a reality... because music is A MOMENT... and moments are all relative, that's the beauty of this art form... and happens also in recorded form where it adapts TO YOUR MOMENT and your MOOD, a right piece of music can pump you up or sensibilize you... or scare you... or make you uneasy.

It is just not about how "Musical" you can be adapting your technique to play fast... it's how it's coming out as part of the music... some of the FASTEST music (TEMPO-WISE) I have heard is easy on the ears and even makes people sleep... where as I have seen people DANCE on a piece at 86 BPM.

the magic of subdivisions, TEMPO is the number... Subdivisions and groove are the FORMULA you apply to the numbers... they can divide, multiply, add or substract to the musical effect.

[Drad-dog]

If it were me, Drad good buddy, I would've marched up to our man and said 'I don't need to pay 20 bucks to hear a beat get turned around, I can get paid to hear it from my students'.


You know, I have absolutely no doubt that you WOULD have! And then they would have bounced us both, you for upsetting Jeff and me for being your pal. :-)

Actually, he might have appreciated the critisizm, as most of the other people in the place weren't even listening. As a side note, Joey D. has a sound as big as himself. And that's really big!

[low-tech]

so the power went out in my building yesterday and i hanging out with a bunch of tenets on the top floor killing time till the electrical company restored power. one person who lives here who i didnt know pulls out a phonographic record player<the real old record players, this puppy was a wind-up>and he is a jazz dj at the radio station a local college<brown university>. so we spent a few hours listening to some old,old swing records. they were all singles.

stuff like benny goodman,artie shaw,"fats" williams and a bunch of other bands who's name i cant recall, this guy has a serious collection. it was cool and its too bad alot of the drummers dont come out recorded well beyond the swish of the hihat or ride cymbal on alot of tracks, something about the record player sound quality tho,being as limited as it was for the time, made it very enjoyable.

ive been slowly listening to more jazz and big band stuff from my roomates small album collection as well. im starting to understand what some of you guys said before about dynamics and the range of volume jazz <and classical> music employs. how the music can be a roar and a whisper where more modern rock music, metal and so forth has mostly forgotten that potential range. i dont know if its an issue of amplified music,even with a volume pedal,use of overdrive and distortion, that range of acoustic instruments seem very hard to imitate and utilize.

but yeah, i dont mean to break up the flow here. i am trying to understand jazz music more and so on.

[OZjazzer]

You know, I have absolutely no doubt that you WOULD have! And then they would have bounced us both, you for upsetting Jeff and me for being your pal. :-)

Actually, he might have appreciated the critisizm, as most of the other people in the place weren't even listening. As a side note, Joey D. has a sound as big as himself. And that's really big!

Confession time. Gregg I bought some Jeff Hamilton model brushes and already I'm having trouble keeping 2 and 4 in the right place (=).

And low-tech that's a great experiece to actually hear swing era 78's played on an acoustic wind up. That's how I got started with jazz. By the way, Fats 'Williams' was most likely Fats Waller, and he really knew how to swing a bit. Keep listening.

[mattsmith]

Ballads? Now that's where we really sort the men from the boys, but that's another story.
Yes, I very much agree. If you are listening to Miles Davis play the ballad of his choice in the late 50s, or Ben Webster play the ballad of his choice ten years before, Johnny Hodges play Gone with the Wind, Prelude to a Kiss, or Coltrane play Dear Lord, then you are listening to something quite special. Unfortunately, in these times alot of people are playing ballad concept albums that they do not have the depth to play.

[jazzgregg]

OZ- I had a student give me some Hamilton brushes and they were just too stiff for me. Note: this is not some kind of clever pun or word association, the wires were too stiff for me. Besides, who cares what it says on a stick, I use the Erskine Ride sticks only! By the way, let's not seriously bag on Hamilton for turning beats arond, now, I was just explaining why it happened, I didn't say Hamilton SUCKS, man-lol.

Low Tech, well, well, look who pops in here this side of the board, it's Defender of the (metal) Faith himself. Ok, just joking, seriously, that a great story and I think it's very cool that you're interested in Jazz, man. This thread has lots of reccomendations if you're stuck for some.

G

[OZjazzer]

OZ- I had a student give me some Hamilton brushes and they were just too stiff for me. Note: this is not some kind of clever pun or word association, the wires were too stiff for me. Besides, who cares what it says on a stick, I use the Erskine Ride sticks only! By the way, let's not seriously bag on Hamilton for turning beats arond, now, I was just explaining why it happened, I didn't say Hamilton SUCKS, man-lol.

Low Tech, well, well, look who pops in here this side of the board, it's Defender of the (metal) Faith himself. Ok, just joking, seriously, that a great story and I think it's very cool that you're interested in Jazz, man. This thread has lots of reccomendations if you're stuck for some.

G

Message understood. Damn you are right about the wires too. They are too stiff. This is what comes of ordering stuff on the net and not actually touching it. Just as well my standard Regal Tips are in good nick. I am also the proud owner of a pair of new mallets that you could use to fight the war on terrorism ... alone. So what mallets do you guys like using on the kit? Really would like to know.
Hamilton? I like him way better on CD than I do 'live'. To me his live sound is way too mushy, but a lot of guys like that ultra washy cymbal sound. I don't.

While I have your attention how about telling where I can find some 'straight' Joey Baron recordings. I heard him just playing great on a Mark Murphy album, loved Joey BUT I HATE MARK MURPHY!!!! So, forgetting Zorn for a minute, where else do I look?

[finnhiggins]

While I have your attention how about telling where I can find some 'straight' Joey Baron recordings. I heard him just playing great on a Mark Murphy album, loved Joey BUT I HATE MARK MURPHY!!!! So, forgetting Zorn for a minute, where else do I look?

A lot of Joey's own stuff is pretty accessible, if i remember right. I must confess that I don't actually own any of it, but I had a live performance of his "Barondown" band I taped of one of the BBC stations in the UK during the 90s that I used to love to death, until my machine chewed the cassette. Rrrrrr. That was actually my intro to Joey, and since I couldn't find his discs in the UK I ended up buying a lot of Naked City and Masada stuff just to listen to the drums... and discovered I loved everything else, too.

[OZjazzer]

What I meant was some good Baron as a sideman examples. Sorry.

[jazzgregg]

Yeah, I can't stand Mark Murpy (or most singers for that matter!).

Just How big are those mallets, OZ, if you don't want 'em, I could use a set of bigger ones (than the plain ol' Firth ones I use) I also use various marimba mallets (Thanks Jack!)

So Joey, yeah. Knowing more or less what your tastes are, I'll try to stay away from the weirder stuff. Stu, if you're lurking, pay attention to this list, I think you asked about Joey stuff once, right?

New Lands, Deep Down, Jazz Roads, Play Morricone 1 and 2, Ballads- Enrico Pieranunzi
Black Pastels-Hank Roberts
These Rooms-Jim Hall
The Bill Frisell early trio stuff, Live, Music of Buster Keaton, Have a Little Faith, etc. (yeah, this can get weird, but it's SO good)
In Our Lifetime, Soul on Soul, Stargazer -Dave Douglas
Who's Bridge, No Idea- Misha Mengelberg
Sound of Summer Running-Marc Johnson
Rosslyn-John Taylor
Sound of Surprise, Some New Stuff-Lee Konitz
Shades of Jade-Marc Johnson

His own 'Down Home' and 'We'll Soon Find Out' are really inside and grooving and shouldn't really count as his own, he plays the sideman role, really.

This is all I can think of at the moment that isn't out or that I like and can remember that I own=).

G

[mattsmith]

Slightly off topic, if anyone is interested, my dad just posted some really good video on his website. Along with some great stuff of Clark Terry playing with his long defunct killer big band, he has some nice stuff from Romanian television of 2 and a half years ago. I really like the last track especially. The drummer is my Romanian mentor Vlad Popescu.

Here's the link.

http://thsmith.com/sndclip.html#

[mattsmith]

Maynard Ferguson passed away at age 78 of a stomach infection that brought about kidney and liver failure.

Wow, think of all the great drummers who played with him.

RIP

[OZjazzer]

Maynard Ferguson passed away at age 78 of a stomach infection that brought about kidney and liver failure.

Wow, think of all the great drummers who played with him.

RIP

Thanks for letting us know Matt. Some of the other older guys will remember when he burst onto the big band scene with that amazing late 50's Kenton band. Holy cow that band was jammed with great brass players (Frank 'you can't do THAT on a trombone' Rosolino for one) but Maynard rode shotgun right up there where only players like Dizzy had been before. Don't know a hell of a lot about of his later stuff but he was always making exciting sounds. A lot of today's trumpet players owe him heaps. I'm sure you dad knows many stories about Maynard.

[Rich]

I've been reading a lot of history of Jazz lately, and it is depressing how many of the greats are gone now. Which led me to think, who are the contemporary jazz legends in the making that still have that 50s (and earlier) bop/hard bop inluence? Not just drummers, but musicians in the vein of "band leader" of the old days.

I ask, because I really enjoy the high fidelity of modern recordings of jazz standards. Right now I am really into Wynton Marsallis, as his sound is modern, yet his music is true to the history of jazz.

Any other suggestions?

Stu Hi Stu! I just wanted to let you know that the great Maynard Ferguson (Trumpet player) passed away last week. 8-23-06 You can go to his web site and learn a lot about who he was if you are not familiar with him. I had the pleasure of meeting him and talking with him a few times at a couple of his concerts over the years. He will be greatly missed! Take care brother! Rich

[jazzgregg]

One of the last remaining greats and the only real Redman.

http://www.jazzpolice.com/content/view/6299/2/

RIP Dewey.
G

[OZjazzer]

Guys here it is! A great chance to grab your partner and watch Wynton 'The Legend' Marsalis (he's a legend cos it says so on the blurb). And it's 'LIVE' ..... well kind of live ..... well at least it's the big screen, via satellite kind of live. Best of all, it will only cost 250 bucks each! Love to be there, but you know how it is, Australia - distance and all that. However Gregg and Finn are sure to be there. Gee hasn't jazz come a long way?

Wynton Marsalis Headlines First Performance Series On Velocity Broadcasting
Daily News Headlines

Posted 9/7/2006

Wynton Marsalis is the featured performer on Velocity Broadcasting's first "In Higher Definition Private Performance Series." These concerts will be broadcast in Morton's The Steakhouse private boardroom locations across the United States on Oct. 6 and 7. DownBeat is also collaborating on this presentation.
"No one else in the nation is offering fans this unique way of enjoying a live concert," Marsalis said. "Jazz is an expressive, evocative form of music and with this concept—combining top quality audio, visual and dining—fans will experience an intimate listening session. I'm thrilled to be part of it."

Audiences will view Marsalis' concert via satellite in Morton's boardrooms that are equipped with high-definition projection systems, 108" screens and 7.2 surround sound with 11 speakers. The suite accomodates up to 40 guests in each location. Morton's four-course dinner is included in the concert package.

"Jazz icon Wynton Marsalis is the perfect ambassador to join us in introducing this groundbreaking concept that will clearly redefine the entertainment medium," Philip Elias, chief executive officer and executive producer of Velocity Broadcasting, said. "What better combination—Morton's exceptional menu and the finest jazz performed by a living legend?"

"Jazz has always been ahead of trends in music, so Wynton Marsalis' 'In Higher Definition' makes perfect sense," said DownBeat president Kevin Maher. "A trend-setting artist in a trend-setting atmosphere."

For more information go to: VelocityBoxOffice.com

[finnhiggins]

I've always said that the only thing wrong with Wynton was he just wasn't in sufficiently high-definition video...

[OZjazzer]

I've always said that the only thing wrong with Wynton was he just wasn't in sufficiently high-definition video...

That's it. Why didn't I think of that? This will obviously fix the problem. Boop-oopadoo-diddly-wapp-bamm!

[jazzgregg]

Now THAT'S Shock and Awe....or, rather Awwww...

You Wynton defenders on here, need I say more?

G

[Thomas]

Jeff hamilton - Awesome,

[stikshot]

Hmmmm.
1. Dewey Redman will surely be missed. I love all the Keith Impulse records with Dewey. WOW.

2. So how come people sleep on Tain? He's got the baddest swing and he's a deep composer. Definately carrying the torch. I really don't understand why people dig Matt Wilson. Every time I've heard him, he sounds kinda lame in the swing department. But maybe I haven't got the good stuff... but you can never convince me he's ever swung as hard as Tain. Can anyone enlighten me??

[finnhiggins]

Jeff hamilton - Awesome,

Somewhere out there is a man named Gregg tearing his eyeballs out as we speak...

[jazzgregg]

Somewhere out there is a man named Gregg tearing his eyeballs out as we speak...

Fnnw,
hatnsk for nwtont huwas id oeoew, cufk!

H

[OZjazzer]

One hour documentary Keith Jarrett 'The Art of Improvisation'

Just got lucky and saw and recorded this new documentary on Jarret. If you guys haven't seen it, try and catch it. The name is a bit up itself because it's really a doco, about his career. It's very well put together and there are lots of clips with people like Gabarek, Dewey Redman, Miles, Haden, and of course Jack and Peacock plus others. Haden looks and sounds like a pain in the ass but what's new?

Frankly I had forgotten where Jarrett had been and who he has played with. It's really quite amazing, as far as I can see no other living jazz musician gets close.

His great interlect and sense of humour is clearly on display, as is the concern his trio partners felt when he had his health problems.

I am reminded of the concerns about his 'tantrums' on this thread and wonder if this isn't more to do with his major success in the classical world where concerns about 'sound' are taken much more seriously than they are in the world of jazz? it's a pity more jazz players wern't more concerned about their performing sound.

Do Peacock and Jack hate him as has been suggested? Hard to believe after watching this.

Yes I am a very big fan of Keith Jarrett and am even more so after seeing this. Try to catch it even if you're not a KJ fan, it's very well put together.

[jazzgregg]

I agree, OZ, it's brilliant, as is KJ. It's worth the footage of his American and European bands alone (you can get the Jack, Gary trio anywhere). Watch what you say about Haden, though!!! The Haden, Motian, sometimes Redman and the Garbarek, Danielsson, Christensen bands are 2 of the greatest bands in the history of music, IMO.

Whether they hate him or not, they aren't going to say on a documentary, that's for sure! 'Well, we hate KJ, but, man, keep the cheque's a -comin'.

Now, OZ, I suggest you watch it again. Watch how when they are all in the same room and not talking about arrangements/chords, they don't speak to each other. Check out the piano trying-out scene, they ignore him. Watch the footage of Jack and Gary with KJ closely and see what you think. Of course, does it really matter? Nah, of course not, we're just speculating, except for whoever said they heard Gary say they didn't like KJ.

As for his tantrums, I've never been to a classical KJ show, so I don't care- all that I care about is him doing it and costing us poor Jazz musicians money! Whatever causes them, or whatever the reason, I still say there is no excuse. What makes KJ is genius to me is most cetainly NOT the current trio, though. That stuff is nice, but not even close to his best, most creative stuff, IMO. It's the earlier stuff that put him there. Those who think the standards trio is what made KJ, I have some reccomendations for you...

One of KJ's best quotes is less than 5 min into the film: 'saying music comes from music is like saying babies come from babies'. Next time any of you want to spend 12 hours in the practice room, eschew a gallery visit or reading a book to 'shed chops', remember this.

I too cannot reccommend this film any higher. I am very glad you saw it, OZ.

G

[OZjazzer]

As you might understand, I'm pretty fond of the 'Standards Trio'. That says more about me than it does about KJ (=). Nothing wrong Haden's music, he just makes me feel creepy, always has.

Sound? What I was attempting to suggest was that KJ's classical thing would have influenced his ideas about how he would like to present his jazz performances as well.

As for the 'hate' thing, I still really can't see how you can play music as intimate and interactive as they do, with 2 of the three hating the third.

As for the doco. I really can't think of another one as well done as this was. I've certainly seen a LOT worse.

[jazzgregg]

As you might understand, I'm pretty fond of the 'Standards Trio'. That says more about me than it does about KJ (=). Nothing wrong Haden's music, he just makes me feel creepy, always has.

Sound? What I was attempting to suggest was that KJ's classical thing would have influenced his ideas about how he would like to present his jazz performances as well.

As for the 'hate' thing, I still really can't see how you can play music as intimate and interactive as they do, with 2 of the three hating the third.

As for the doco. I really can't think of another one as well done as this was. I've certainly seen a LOT worse.

I'm not saying the stadards trio is crap, not at all (they are great), only that I know alot of people who think that's all he's done (and I know you aren't one of those, either!).

I see what you mean about sound now. I just woke up and didn;t read your post carefully enough. I think you may be right about that. Also, maybe he was spoiled recording for and getting special treatment from masters Manfred Eicher and Jan Erik Kongshaug so early in in his career. Either way, I think you're right, it certainly does transfer into his Jazz sound.

OZ, although I can't speak for Jack or Gary (wish I could-lol) it's all business to them as they've said. I've played very intimate music with people I really don't like. It's totally possible, they are all pros, plus, the wads of cash make it easier, I'm sure. It's about the music, it doesn't have to be about anything else, like or dislike of KJ doesn't have to enter into it if they don't want it to- they are playing music, improvising together on outrageously familiar material, not having a stawberry social.

G

[Loge]

I definitely would like to see this film. My only question would be, "How's the level of KJ's 'singing' on it?" Sorry, but I've gotta' protect my health, here.

[OZjazzer]

I definitely would like to see this film. My only question would be, "How's the level of KJ's 'singing' on it?" Sorry, but I've gotta' protect my health, here.

You'll be fine. There are few, if any, examples of Keith's 'vocals' on it.

[jazzin']

I definitely would like to see this film. My only question would be, "How's the level of KJ's 'singing' on it?" Sorry, but I've gotta' protect my health, here.


Hehe I've got a vid of the standards trio and man it really gets to you after a while. "Weeeeee eeee eee eeeeeeeeee ayyy awwwww eeeeeeeee" Christ!!!

[Loge]

Hehe I've got a vid of the standards trio and man it really gets to you after a while. "Weeeeee eeee eee eeeeeeeeee ayyy awwwww eeeeeeeee" Christ!!!

I can't even get get through two or three songs on that vid simply because of the 'whine factor'.

For a few good laughs about it, check out an earlier discussion on this thread starting at post # 417.

[jazzgregg]

I can't even get get through two or three songs on that vid simply because of the 'whine factor'.

For a few good laughs about it, check out an earlier discussion on this thread starting at post # 417.

See, I usually have trouble listening to KJ interviews because of the whine factor. During his playing is fine with me.

G

[hotsauce3n]

anyone know any good resources(online would be great but books are fine too) with an overall view of jazz history and how it changed?

i am doing my senior thesis on jazz drumming so if anyone has anything that might be of help feel free to email or message me

aim: hotsauce3n
email: jazzdrumming18788@gmail.com

[jazzgregg]

anyone know any good resources(online would be great but books are fine too) with an overall view of jazz history and how it changed?

i am doing my senior thesis on jazz drumming so if anyone has anything that might be of help feel free to email or message me

aim: hotsauce3n
email: jazzdrumming18788@gmail.com


I PM'd you.

G

2020202

[Subdivisions]

I play in a small jazz ensemble at school, and this week the director gave us three songs: Recorda-Me by Joe Henderson, One for Daddy-O by Nat Adderley, and Blue Train by John Coltrane. By Tuesday, I need to know the lineup for the group that played these songs originally. Any help would be appreciated, and if there is a website with this type of information, could you please give me the link. Thanks.

[Thomas]

Iv been into Lewis Nash latley. He has a strange mix of rock and jazz in his solo's. and when he plays jazz, it sounds just like the old days.

[FunkTional Art]

Iv been into Lewis Nash latley. He has a strange mix of rock and jazz in his solo's. and when he plays jazz, it sounds just like the old days.
Smokin Hot ... Have you heard Lewis Nash's work on Pat Martino's CD called "THINK TANK" wonderful Jazz ensemble playing. Certain moments remind me of little of Tony.

[jazzgregg]

Hey, any of you recent posters read the thread by any chance? Any of it? No? I thought not.

And to the guy asking for info for his Jazz class, you'll never learn anything if peoiple give you all the answers.

G

[Garvin]

Good point Gregg. I just spent the better part of an hour reading this entire thread, and I wish I could've gotten in on the early conversations concerning Hamid, Susie, Brotzmann etc... I've seen, met and listened to those folks for years.

Anyway, that's not here or there. Just suggesting that everyone dedicate some time on a weekend and read this whole thread. For aspiring jazz players, or anyone who may find themselves in a real conversation about the history of jazz, this thread is as good a primer on jazz history (and future) as any book that's been written. Good thread, great forum, just put in your time and join the conversation.

[FunkTional Art]

I've been reading a lot of history of Jazz lately, and it is depressing how many of the greats are gone now. Which led me to think, who are the contemporary jazz legends in the making that still have that 50s (and earlier) bop/hard bop inluence? Not just drummers, but musicians in the vein of "band leader" of the old days.

I ask, because I really enjoy the high fidelity of modern recordings of jazz standards. Right now I am really into Wynton Marsallis, as his sound is modern, yet his music is true to the history of jazz.

Any other suggestions?

Stu
Kurt Rosenwinkle with Jeff Ballard on drums. Jeff has done a lot of work with Chick Corea for the last 5 or so years and also played with jazz pianist Brad Mehldau ... Very innovative drummer, wonderful touch. Cool footage the morning after ... on the road again. What a blast! Kurt is a superb guitarist and composer ... definetly an edge in his music some hard Bop, a little latin. some odd time, at times moody dark harmony yet spirited. both John Scofield and Pat Martino dig this cat. Refreshing .......
Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4qo-hWroY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAkONsjZhTY

[theduke86]

Kurt Rosenwinkle with Jeff Ballard on drums. Jeff has done a lot of work with Chick Corea for the last 5 or so years and also played with jazz pianist Brad Mehldau ... Very innovative drummer, wonderful touch. Cool footage the morning after ... on the road again. What a blast! Kurt is a superb guitarist and composer ... definetly an edge in his music some hard Bop, a little latin. some odd time, at times moody dark harmony yet spirited. both John Scofield and Pat Martino dig this cat. Refreshing .......
Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4qo-hWroY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAkONsjZhTY
I'm headed down to NYC this weekend to catch Rosenwinkle at the Village Vanguard with Jeff on drums. Kurt's great- I am not his biggest fan in the world, but I'm really looking forward to hearing Jeff Ballard play, it'll be my third time seeing him and he crushed me the first two times.
Also, what's up with Rosenwinkle dressing like a slob wherever he goes? I understand the need to perform casually, and that's cool, but man, he looks like a bum sometimes. I always thought one should show the audience a little respect, I'm not talking about being fully decked out in suit and tie and stuff, but at least a little cleaned up or something. At least wear a shirt that doesn't have month old coffee stains on it. Of course, you could make the argument that music matters only, which it does, but I feel a little bit of audience disrespect coming from some of those guys. Am I alone on this one?

[FunkTional Art]

I'm headed down to NYC this weekend to catch Rosenwinkle at the Village Vanguard with Jeff on drums. Kurt's great- I am not his biggest fan in the world, but I'm really looking forward to hearing Jeff Ballard play, it'll be my third time seeing him and he crushed me the first two times.
Also, what's up with Rosenwinkle dressing like a slob wherever he goes? I understand the need to perform casually, and that's cool, but man, he looks like a bum sometimes. I always thought one should show the audience a little respect, I'm not talking about being fully decked out in suit and tie and stuff, but at least a little cleaned up or something. At least wear a shirt that doesn't have month old coffee stains on it. Of course, you could make the argument that music matters only, which it does, but I feel a little bit of audience disrespect coming from some of those guys. Am I alone on this one?
Wish I could see the show. Have a good trip. I saw Jeff Ballard with Chick Corea and Christine McBride ... one of the very best trio's I have ever seen. They were all brilliant. Saw Kurt without Jeff, it was a great show but would have preferred to see Jeff with him ... the drummer was swedish mmm what was his name .... he was very strong playing Jeff's parts from the studio tracks.

[OZjazzer]

I'm headed down to NYC this weekend to catch Rosenwinkle at the Village Vanguard with Jeff on drums. Kurt's great- I am not his biggest fan in the world, but I'm really looking forward to hearing Jeff Ballard play, it'll be my third time seeing him and he crushed me the first two times.
Also, what's up with Rosenwinkle dressing like a slob wherever he goes? I understand the need to perform casually, and that's cool, but man, he looks like a bum sometimes. I always thought one should show the audience a little respect, I'm not talking about being fully decked out in suit and tie and stuff, but at least a little cleaned up or something. At least wear a shirt that doesn't have month old coffee stains on it. Of course, you could make the argument that music matters only, which it does, but I feel a little bit of audience disrespect coming from some of those guys. Am I alone on this one?

I totally agree. He looks like he's just held up a drug store. It doesn't do him or the music any favours.

[bigbanddrummergal]

Oh man am I glad I found this site today!!! What great reading this thread has been - wow!! I have a question for anyone out there who may be a bit of a big band trivia buff. This was posed to me by my boyfriend who's been a drummer for 40+ years and I cannot find the answer anyplace...lol. Hey, dinner and a show are riding on this and I don't want to pay!!!

Wayyy back in the 40's original Jimmy Dorsey orchestra, he claims there was a drummer with the last name Reinhardt. I say no way - Finley, Rich yes, but no Reinhardt. Would anyone like to help a lady out with this???

[Deathmetalconga]

Wow, this thread really heated up since I last looked.

I do have a big problem with some of the attitudes that prevail in jazz. It's one of the big reasons I don't play a lot of it, to be honest. There's this whole "hip cat" attitude that seems to me to be the antithesis of personal expression: Your playing is under constant and often virulent assessment from people around you, all of whom want to give you (often conflicting) advice as if it is absolute gospel. But worse than that, it's not just playing - there's a serious push to make you conform in your musical thinking, language and appearance too. As they say, opinions are like ("gasholes" - ed), everybody has one. But in jazz, those aforementioned holes are an awful lot bigger.

The roots of this actually make a lot of sense - jazz had, historically, a very impressive system of apprenticeships of sorts, where musicians would being trained and improved by the players around them. But my general feeling is that the attitude of "hey, I'll teach you" has kind of turned into this alpha-male pissing contest in most jazz circles I've been a part of, where people are always jousting to make their advice the primary one on other players and worrying more about the status of themselves and their opinions over the actual music. I've found the atmosphere in a lot of jazz clubs rather fetid, to be honest.

Who cares? Isn't this supposed to be about music?

I do agree with being able to communicate your opinions on music freely. Personally I really don't like what Mike Portnoy does on a drum kit, and I'm happy to say so. Ditto Weckl, although that's more about his choice of musical environments. But really, I do think that jazz is somewhat doomed by current attitudes. If there's any one style where I feel imposed upon to conform to a certain attitude, appearance or way of thinking it is most certainly jazz. Most other styles seem to have got over this, but ironically for such a musician-heavy style jazz seems incredibly dominated by image and groupthink.

Edit: Did I mention I really enjoy listening to jazz? Sorry, got carried away and forgot that bit. I really do. But I just can't see myself playing it seriously, for the reasons mentioned above.

Well put. I think part of the problem is that jazz is so vociferously debated, analyzed and argued that the music itself has taken a backseat to the discussion about it. Ironically, if it were more widely listened to, I think there would be less fussing over it. The smaller and more elite its audience becomes, the more passionately and lengthily they appear to debate it.

www.terrasonus.com

[jazzgregg]

Well put. I think part of the problem is that jazz is so vociferously debated, analyzed and argued that the music itself has taken a backseat to the discussion about it. Ironically, if it were more widely listened to, I think there would be less fussing over it. The smaller and more elite its audience becomes, the more passionately and lengthily they appear to debate it.

www.terrasonus.com

You couldn't be more wrong. Jazz is so vociferously debated, analyzed and argued because of the music, not in spite of or at the cost of it. At least that's the way it is with the actual musicians (like Ken Vandermark and Brad Mehldau). Sure there are always stuffy 'academic' types that ONLY like to debate, but they are mostly the Neo-Cons like Stanley Crouch et. al, believe it or not.

The music has not taken a backseat to anything. Look at it like this: there are football fans (soccer) that love their club, there are fans that do a little armchair managing and there are fans who keep track of everything and like discussing all aspects of their club and the sport in general. Most Jazz musicians are passionate about their music so hence the active discussions and if they were football fans, they are almost to the last man, in the third catagory. But is all for love of the game.

Also, consider how 'widely listened to' stuff like Nirvana and Zep are, or Rush. Much more than Jazz, but it doesn't mean people aren't arguing about it. Quite the contrary.

The smaller the audience becomes, the more defending and explaining is needed for the people who think they know the story, but don't. The more it creeps out of sight of the public, yeah, the more talking we have to do, for sure, or else who will buy our records and see our shows? Who will care about the music?

G

[mattsmith]

Well put. I think part of the problem is that jazz is so vociferously debated, analyzed and argued that the music itself has taken a backseat to the discussion about it. Ironically, if it were more widely listened to, I think there would be less fussing over it. The smaller and more elite its audience becomes, the more passionately and lengthily they appear to debate it.

www.terrasonus.com

You seem to be a pretty diverse and interesting guy until this one thing comes up. I can only believe that you had a bad experience with one or more jazz musicians who caused you some memorable discomfort, because much of your perpetual jazz attitude rant flies in the face of those who practice the musical genre you embrace...who are if I am not mistaken a very rabid, yet small core group intent on spreading their message regarding an almost (at least in North America) forgotten style...AND really don't like it so much when careless laypersons misinterpret their message.

Am I wrong here?

Bottom line...after a hundred years of academic neglect and scholarship, jazz is being historically catalogued for dissemination over the next 1000 years. That's why we debate it so voraciously now, and attempt to keep others on task as much as possible. Unfortunately, this includes some of the so called spokespersons for our cliquish little genre, who think we are as wrong as they think wrongly of us. This practice of historical one upsmanship will probably continue for at least another couple of decades. That's how convinced we are of the historical longevity associated with this music.

I personally don't know a single jazz musician who gives a rip about how popular jazz is. We know we lose that battle in the present before we ever go in. But to control the historical debate in the future is yet another matter, and one with infinite far reaching positive consequences. People can call this futile snobbery all they want. But in all candor I don't think most in this profession care, since they believe in the purpose more than anything else.

As to the futile impact often implied, I can only state that with jazz music's obvious shaping of 20th century society and its related culture...it has already demonstrated the bigger point, while nothing on a larger scale will be settled on an Internet drum forum. The fact that a lot of people today can't see the forrest for the trees is unfortunately their problem, not mine.

BTW, I enjoy listening to your music.

[rendezvous_drummer]

From what I have seen (this is not what I actually believe), but from what I've seen, the only people that I know of who appreciate jazz or even listen to jazz, are musicians. I was at HMV megastore in downtown the other day and went into the Jazz section, and it's a pretty big section. This guy comes up to me and asks me if this cd is any good. It was Miles Davis Kind of Blue, go figure eh. I said yeah that album is amazing. He turned out to be a drummer who is going to be takin lessons in Jazz. Many occasions, i've ran into other musicians in that section of the store, which led me to recognize that the only people I know who listen to jazz, are musicians. Just a bit strange, but good taste.

[mattsmith]

From what I have seen (this is not what I actually believe), but from what I've seen, the only people that I know of who appreciate jazz or even listen to jazz, are musicians.
In countries outside North America, jazz is often the second or third most popular musical genre, while at least 40-50% possess a peripheral knowledge of some kind. This is so much better than in The States. In September, my father for example was filling up very popular venues in South Africa, when in name recognition, he is second tier at best.They are also all over it in Japan, France, Germany and especially Eastern Europe. Areas outside of North America where it never completely caught on include Australia /although good scenes exist there/ and the Arab speaking countries, although nearby places like Turkey have monster jazz scenes.

[rendezvous_drummer]

Yea that's true. When I was in Europe, Jazz was huge. In Vancouver, we have the Vancouver International Jazz festival that I often go to, and we get people like Diana Krall who perform. I don't see many people at these jazz festivals though, it's pretty sad. Jazz is great, and some people just can't see that.