RECORDING DRUMS - tips, questions, equipment, etc. [Archive] - Page 2

Fat Elvis

08-18-2006, 08:15 PM

i see. would pa's be provided at a gig? or would that differ from venue to venue?
that would differ from venue to venue. It is far better to play a place that already has a PA simply because it is easier not to set up your own, and if their PA is somewhat permanent, their speaker placement is usually more ideal (i.e. hanging from the ceiling, mounted high on walls) than the temporary placement you will have if you bring your own PA to the gig (mounted on poles).

and what about the board, amp, speakers, and monitors?
if the venue provides the PA, that means they will have a board, an amp and speakers. That does not mean that they will have monitors -- since the monitors are there for the band and not the crowd. Also, some bands run in-ear monitors while some use traditional stage monitors. My band uses stage monitors.

i'm looking at this interface:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/PreSonus-INSPIRE-1394-FireWire-Audio-Interface?sku=241483

i think it's the same one that pdp is looking into as well. it only has two xlr inputs, so if i was to buy a kick mic, i would have to upgrade.
Yes, if you wanted to run three mics all at once, you would need to upgrade or you would need to dump at least two of your mics into a board and then run a singular output into the interface.

aside from only having two inputs, is there anything that you see wrong with it. my only worry is that it says on the presonus site that it has +48v phantom power, and on the audix site it says "adds dimension and realism Condenser 9-52 volts phantom" for the condenser mic you recommended. i don't know how to translate that really, but basically, will the presonus interface give enough phantom power to get a good sound quality out of the two overheads?
+48v is the standard phantom power -- all condensor mics (including the one i suggested) should and do run fine on +48v. If the interface says it has an option for phantom power, you will be fine.

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-19-2006, 07:01 PM

that would differ from venue to venue. It is far better to play a place that already has a PA simply because it is easier not to set up your own, and if their PA is somewhat permanent, their speaker placement is usually more ideal (i.e. hanging from the ceiling, mounted high on walls) than the temporary placement you will have if you bring your own PA to the gig (mounted on poles).

if the venue provides the PA, that means they will have a board, an amp and speakers. That does not mean that they will have monitors -- since the monitors are there for the band and not the crowd. Also, some bands run in-ear monitors while some use traditional stage monitors. My band uses stage monitors.

Yes, if you wanted to run three mics all at once, you would need to upgrade or you would need to dump at least two of your mics into a board and then run a singular output into the interface.

+48v is the standard phantom power -- all condensor mics (including the one i suggested) should and do run fine on +48v. If the interface says it has an option for phantom power, you will be fine.

thanks so much for all the help. all of my questions have been answered for now. i very much appreciate it.

Berberman

08-19-2006, 08:11 PM

This is what works for me: http://www.presonus.com/firepod.html

You will get a lot of basic info here if you'd like to get into recording your drums, band and gigs: http://www.tweakheadz.com/

A forum is available too.

Peace

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-20-2006, 07:33 AM

yah, that tweakheadz site is nice. i've bookmarked it from when i was searching through

past threads. but there's no way i can afford the firepod. question: ok so i plug mic

cables into the mic, then obviously the other end into the interface, now i need a firewire

cable to connect the interface to my computer so i can succesfully record? correct? i'm

looking at this page: http://samash.com/catalog/search.asp?Method=3&CategoryID=344&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&SearchPhrase=&DepartmentID=6&SortMethod=6&pagesize=0 on samash.com

and the wires range from $12.99 to $55.99...

what should i be looking for in a firewire wire? what is "6 pin to 6 pin" and "9 pin to 9 pin"?

Javlib

08-25-2006, 10:27 AM

I am not sure about computer recording, but I have experience with mics, mixers, compressors, etc. for shaping sound and recording from the main console.

I currently have the CAD Pro7 mic set ($200.00), the mics come with built in clips that work well clipping them to the rims. The snare mic has a great sound (I really like it), the three tom mics are acceptable (Toms 10", 12", 14"), I use the kick mic on my 16" floor tom as I have an older Audio Technica Pro-25 for the kick ($150 many moons ago), the 2 condensor mics that come in the CAD kit sound ok but they pick up too much sympathetic sounds from the stage such as the vocals coming through the monitors. I have the condensors set fairly close to the hi-hat on my left and the ride on my right. I will likely replace these with something that serves my needs better.

I have these eight mics going to a Behringer UB2222FX PRO mixer as my submixer, it's cheap enough at $250, remember that the mixer needs the phantom power for the condensors and enough balanced XLRs to handle all of your mics. 1/4" tip ring sleve plugs are not going to cut it as you'll spend just as much for adapters anyway. Here's why you'll want all the different mics: you'll want different EQs for different drums (accomplished by individual channel EQ on the submixer) and I use a two channel compressor (Behringer MDX 2600) for the kick and snare. The compressor really shines on tightening up and focusing the sound of the kick and opens up the sound for the snare. I also use a BBE 462 on these two channels after the compression and before we go to the main mixing console. Using the submixer, I send three discrete channels to the main mixing console, the kick gets a channel out by itself, the snare another and the toms and condensors together get yet another or my third. This way I use only 3 channels in our 24 channel snake and we get enough flexability to control the drum sound fairly well.

Now I got to all this because we recently began recording to a stand alone Tascam CD recorder and I needed to get a signal to the board for my cymbals and toms. Before we started recording, I used the Audio Technica Pro-25 on the kick and a Shure SM57 for the snare and just those two mics did pretty well for live reinforcement.

If you want to go cheap for now, you might try a USB computer interface (Maybe the Tascam US-122 @ $150) it has 2 Balanced XLRs and 2 unbalanced 1/4 TRS inputs for a total of four, then it connects to your computer's USB ports. You could then buy 2 mics, say maybe a good dynamic designed for the kick, and a good large diaphram as an overhead. This option would probably fill your immediate need.

You will end up, down the road, where I am now, with all this other stuff. So, just plan for it by buying things that can be used later on as well.

Togg

09-05-2006, 06:00 PM

Can we have a 'recording' forum, in which we separate the threads concerning recording, including how to, hardware, tech advice, mic choses etc etc

Just a suggestion, anybody like the idea I think it would be useful rather than searching around for stuff.

DrumBuster

09-05-2006, 07:13 PM

Sounds good, there are too many threads in inconvinient places filled with "listen to me play"

jonescrusher

09-05-2006, 07:18 PM

Sounds good, there are too many threads in inconvinient places filled with "listen to me play"

I think Togg is eluding to threads concerning how to record, not recordings themselves. If they're inconvenient then don't visit the Your Playing forum.

T.Underhill

09-05-2006, 07:34 PM

I think that's a decent idea, I've had some troubles finding all the right mic answers when I know they're out there.

Tutin

09-05-2006, 08:00 PM

Great Idea man! I was recording yesterday and could have used a hand.

Drummer Karl

09-05-2006, 10:23 PM

this would be an awesome idea I think!!!
I don`t know too much about recording technique etc. ...would fresh up my knowledge about it!

Karl

parser

09-06-2006, 06:11 AM

Great thread! We definitely need a "recording your drums" section. I think lots of people here have valuable input to share- from 1 mic and a computer all the way to pro-efforts. It would be nice to have it all tidy and together, and it will help drummers represent themselves properly. I've done a bunch of recording lately, but still have a TON to learn, so let's get it going!

Togg

09-06-2006, 04:44 PM

Anyone from the powers that be care to comment...

My aim would be to have a one stop shop for advice and maybe demos (but not in the same way as the listen to me play stuff, more about checking out different mics and placements etc.

Practical tips and advice from pros to novices on equipment and techniques

Just a thought maybe not enough would be interested but I just find reading about it very interesting, and the techniques change all the time so it's always fun if someone has come across a new way of doing something.

What do you think Bernhard?

TitanSound

09-06-2006, 05:03 PM

Yeah I think this would be the only addition required for the forums...would make it much easier to view others advice and experiences.

DogBreath

09-06-2006, 06:43 PM

Questions about recording your drumming? Suggestions for equipment or software to use? Here's the place to look for answers or help a fellow drummer out. Please continue to use the "Your Drumming" topic to post clips or links, but here's the place for the discussions about the actual recording process.

DogBreath

09-06-2006, 06:45 PM

Great idea. Here's what we'll do for now. I posted a sticky in the General Discussion topic. Let's see how much use it gets. Thanks for the suggestion.

Recording Drums thread. (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=837)

Togg

09-06-2006, 06:58 PM

Well let me be the first...

I think there are lots of things we should discuss here but good tips should be one of them, my first is a great find SE Electronics. They produce some of the best value mics around.

http://www.seelectronics.com/

I have used the SE1a's £70 approx as overheads and several of the other large diaphragm condenser mics as well the SE2200a £150 approx for one, not to mention the 5500's check them out they are truly amazing value and amazing quality, they also seem to have a sister brand T-Bone that is exclusively sold through.

http://www.thomann.de/thoiw2_index.html?sn=aa82e7690592d7e9a59dce92b9170 396

Again check them out they have so far been great for my purchase requirements.

But believe me I can't recommend these mics enough I have just spent a bunch of cash on them and I have had great results.

parser

09-06-2006, 07:07 PM

Yeah! Thanks DB, I was hoping ya'll would include this somewhere.

So my first question is about using two mics on a snare drum. I've experimented with a 57 on top, and and audix tom mic on bottom. The bottom mic seems to pic up a bunch of tone and the snare action. Has anyone else played around with this? How bout just putting a mic on the snare's shell? It seems that my overheads pick up the high-end and attack of the snare while the actual snare mic pics up the flavor/tone and quieter dynamics.

I've actually been using two mics on the bass drum, vocals, guitar and bass cabs. It just seems to add so much more variety to the sounds. Is this an approach anyone else uses?

(I'm using Cubase + Firepod and an RNC compressor)

Thanks

Togg

09-06-2006, 07:12 PM

parser

09-06-2006, 07:31 PM

Mic placement is all important here if you are going after that killer sound, remember if you are using two mics on the same drum you need to reverse the phase of one of them, either on the desk, or with a phase inverter (cheap adapter) linked to your cable.

PS the adaptors can be bought here
http://www.canford.co.uk/commerce/productdetails.aspx?productid=49-219

You can also have a cable that you swap the XLR pins 2 & 3 on (however I don't recomend doing that unless you know what you are doing. Also don't forget to mark the cable afterwards or you will forget which one is inverted!

Hmmm, the two mic bit on the snare was an experiment and sounds kind of hollow. I wonder if the mics are out of phase like you mention. I'm new to this and don't really have a grasp of what "out of phase" sounds like.

How bout the kick then, same need to reverse phase? Here's a pic of a placement experiment. The bench is there to tent a heavy comforter for moderate isolation.

Thanks for the input!

adorno

09-06-2006, 07:55 PM

finnhiggins

09-07-2006, 01:13 AM

If you can only afford to get one mic, make it the Shure SM57. EVERYONE uses it, from professional studios (it is probably the most used microphone in studio recording) to bedroom recordists. It's a dynamic mic perfect for the snare but can be used for other applications too. (I tried it on the kick the other day and I almost preferred it to the AKG D112.) Plus at around $100/£70 it's quite cheap. Get it secondhand, and it's even cheaper....

I sort of agree that everybody should own a SM57 (they're also fairly industry-standard for miking guitar cabinets as well as snares!) I'd hesitate to say that you should get one if you only get one mic.

Here's where we get into the differences between dynamic and condenser mics:

Dynamic - these generate their own electrical power by means of moving a diaphram inside a fixed magnetic field. They're generally very robust, they don't need batteries of phantom power and they will typically tolerate very high SPL (Sound Pressure Level = volume) levels without distorting or breaking. As such this makes them excellent for shoving up close on a snare drum, bass drum or tom. Or running around a stage in the hands of a vocalist like the equally industry-standard SM58 (it's a 57 with a slightly different body design incorporating a grille and windshield for vocal use). However, because of their nature (good for high volumes, solid, strong) they are not much cop when it comes to picking up very quiet, nuanced sounds (acoustic instruments) or instruments with a lot of presence and shimmer in the high frequencies (like cymbals). As such they're not ideal for a general-purpose room mic on a drum kit, because they will emphasise the mid-range in your cymbals and make them sound like crap. You can boost the highs with EQ, but they tend to be hard and distorted from dynamic microphones.

Condenser - These work using an electromagnetic field generated from a battery or phantom power (sent down the lead from the mixing desk or pre-amp). They're much more delicate - dropping condensers (particularly large-diapham studio ones) can result in death for the microphone. They're sensitive to moisture in the air, and they often won't tolerate as high SPL levels as dynamic microphones - although this is improving. But on the other hand they provide much, much more accurate and true frequency response. They typically come in two forms - small-diaphram ones like you've probably seen in use as drum overheads (the little thin ones) or large-diaphram front-address ones like you've probably seen vocalists singing into in a studio. Large-diaphram are better for vocals and some instruments, but they're very sensitive and fussy and generally don't get a lot of use outside of a studio environment. Small-diaphram mics have many of the advantages of dynamic mics in that they're a bit more robust and roadworthy, and they see a lot more live use.

If you're just going to buy one mic I'd recommend buying a good-quality small-diapham condenser to go over your kit. That will at least pick everything up. If you've got the money, buy a matched pair - you can't just buy another one later to get a stereo pair, you have to buy them matched. Then get an SM57 or similar which you can use for snare or bass drum at a push. Then get a D112 or Audix D6 or similar for the kick drum. After that you're most of the way there and you can probably get away with buying a set of SM57s or one of the specific tom mic sets.

That's not to say you can't use things like large-diaphram condensers in other applications. Billy Ward's DVD has him using large-diaphram mics on his toms and they sound great. Benny Greb has a groove video recorded using just two expensive large-diaphram condensers (one overhead, one on the bass drum) and it also sounds amazing. But when you get to this stuff you need to start worrying a lot more about pre-amps and such and such to make the mics really shine.

IDDrummer

09-07-2006, 08:42 AM

Thanks for making a sticky of this topic, DB! I have a question for those who are familiar with the Firepod...

I was talking to the guy at GC about recording my drumset into the computer using all the mics that I use live - minimum eight mics - and he suggested that I get the Firepod. So I started reading up on it, and the liturature says it has ten channels with eight mic preamps. So far, so good. Then I found that you can only record four channels simultaneously. This makes no sense to me. Why have eight pre-amped mic channels when you can only use four? It occured to me that this may be a limitation of the software - Cubase LE. I understand that this is a stripped-down version of Cubase. If this is indeed a software issue, is it upgradable, and if so, what is the cost? Also, the unit offers phantom power in groups of four - I generally only use two condensers, so that leaves me with two channels unusable for dynamic mics, correct? Will I have to buy a separate power source for the condensers to be able to use the other six channels for dynamics? (Provided I can even figure out how to run all eight at once anyway!)

I also have another question. I've been recording on a laptop using Audacity. One mic at a time, of course. I've found that I cannot get the recording level set low enough not to peak when I use my Sennheiser e604s. The Audix D6 bass mic is fine, but it requires a lot of gain live, so that doesn't surprise me. Anybody got any ideas on this, until I can finance some sort of Firewire set up? And I guess another question that comes to mind is this - am I going to have the same "hot signal" problem with the Firepod?

Thanks to any and all who can offer suggestions. I just don't trust the salespeople, because they obviously are just trying to sell me something! :D

parser

09-07-2006, 10:00 AM

Then I found that you can only record four channels simultaneously.

I use the Firepod and LE also. I record with 8 mics on the drums simultaneousely so that shouldn't be an issue. In Cubase LE you have to turn on the VST input banks and make them all active (5 groups of two) - located in Devices/VST Input. That's all I can think of.

I agree that the phantom power in groups of four is kind of irritating. I usually use two condensers and 4 dynamics leaving the same two extra phantom tracks unused. I have "accidentally" plugged a dynamic into the phantom powered bank and it worked fine. It was a cheap mic and I felt dirty, but ultimately had the same question - am I gonna ruin the mic, or is it actually ok because in that situation it worked fine.

finnhiggins

09-07-2006, 10:07 AM

I agree that the phantom power in groups of four is kind of irritating. I usually use two condensers and 4 dynamics leaving the same two extra phantom tracks unused. I have "accidentally" plugged a dynamic into the phantom powered bank and it worked fine. It was a cheap mic and I felt dirty, but ultimately had the same question - am I gonna ruin the mic, or is it actually ok because in that situation it worked fine.

It's fine to phantom power dynamic microphones, they won't suffer for it. There's quite a large number of low-to-mid range desks that only have one phantom power control for the whole desk - it's either on or off.

NUTHA JASON

09-07-2006, 10:10 AM

parser

09-07-2006, 10:11 AM

It's fine to phantom power dynamic microphones, they won't suffer for it. There's quite a large number of low-to-mid range desks that only have one phantom power control for the whole desk - it's either on or off.

Very cool, that's great to know Finn! I've usually just avoided the situation - now, it's on!

parser

09-07-2006, 10:14 AM

yes. the only reason why you shouldn't use phantom power with a dynamic is shocking. literally. in live situations the desk sends 48v to all the mics including the singer's one and my band's singer almost eats his mic when he sings so he hates it when i rig up my condensers because he knows his mic is going to bite back. but in the studio this is a moot point.

j

Wow, I've never actually used overheads in a live situation, but I'll remember that for sure.

I have absolutely heard the phantom power through a dynamic, but maybe it's just the Firepod. Maybe it's just me.

Singers deserve a little bite though, right? For every time a drummer whacks his knuckle...

NUTHA JASON

09-07-2006, 10:28 AM

another recording tip.

compressors and effects can have the annoying side effect of delaying the foldback to your cans otherwise known as latency. this makes it very hard to drum with feel or even on time. high priced studio gear does not do this but the real world is full of cheaper stuff that does. so what you want to do is remove the need for, as much as possible, these middleman type processors. ideally it should be mic to mixer to tape.
to do this i consider why we need the compressor in the first place ... instrument bleed. then i think of how i can set up my kit to combat the problem. i put my cymbals higherup, play with less toms and put them further apart and only include the drums i'm going to need for a song.
in terms of effect processors what really is needed is good tuning, good mics and time to experiment. you have to pay good money to get a towering bonham levee breaks sound out of your kit...and why should you? he didn't... he just had two mics and a stairwell. so if you have the luxury of time then see where you can set up, how you can tune and where you can mic. i try to use as many mics as i can be allowed to use - often with surprising results. after spending two days agonising over placement and tuning i took an extra mic and chucked it in the corner of the studio... during playback we listened to channel after channel and to my amazement that one mic had the best sound. all we then did was add a bit of the kick and the over heads to bolster the lows and highs and voila a great drum sound. abondoned were the toms and snare mics.

to sum up: tune and set up your kit for the song in such a way that very little processing will be needed it possible.
j

Togg

09-07-2006, 11:19 AM

Hmmm, the two mic bit on the snare was an experiment and sounds kind of hollow. I wonder if the mics are out of phase like you mention. I'm new to this and don't really have a grasp of what "out of phase" sounds like.

How bout the kick then, same need to reverse phase? Here's a pic of a placement experiment. The bench is there to tent a heavy comforter for moderate isolation.

Thanks for the input!

Well the way you have it set up doesn't seem to be the most effective way to get the best sound, I would have one mic further inside closer to the batter head if possible to get the attack, then the other either where you have it or around the other side of the batter away from your pedal (to avoid noise) but close to the head.

When you have multiple mics on a kit you often get phase problems, basically with the sound waves hitting the mics at different intervals you will experience it, never more so than if you have mics either side of a head, i.e. top and bottom of a snare or inside and outside of a Bass drum, you can get around this and sometimes using an Omni pattern mic inside will help, but it's worth getting some phase inverters and experimenting.

Also it's a must to have proper bass drum mics like a D112 they can handle the SPL from the drum much better than normal dynamic mics can, an SM58 for example will suffer from the proximity effect if placed too close to a head and give it an unnatural sound.

If your recording is sounding hollow my guess is it's either placement or phase problems.

adorno

09-07-2006, 11:47 AM

I sort of agree that everybody should own a SM57 (they're also fairly industry-standard for miking guitar cabinets as well as snares!) I'd hesitate to say that you should get one if you only get one mic.

Here's where we get into the differences between dynamic and condenser mics:

Dynamic - these generate their own electrical power by means of moving a diaphram inside a fixed magnetic field. They're generally very robust, they don't need batteries of phantom power and they will typically tolerate very high SPL (Sound Pressure Level = volume) levels without distorting or breaking. As such this makes them excellent for shoving up close on a snare drum, bass drum or tom. Or running around a stage in the hands of a vocalist like the equally industry-standard SM58 (it's a 57 with a slightly different body design incorporating a grille and windshield for vocal use). However, because of their nature (good for high volumes, solid, strong) they are not much cop when it comes to picking up very quiet, nuanced sounds (acoustic instruments) or instruments with a lot of presence and shimmer in the high frequencies (like cymbals). As such they're not ideal for a general-purpose room mic on a drum kit, because they will emphasise the mid-range in your cymbals and make them sound like crap. You can boost the highs with EQ, but they tend to be hard and distorted from dynamic microphones.

Condenser - These work using an electromagnetic field generated from a battery or phantom power (sent down the lead from the mixing desk or pre-amp). They're much more delicate - dropping condensers (particularly large-diapham studio ones) can result in death for the microphone. They're sensitive to moisture in the air, and they often won't tolerate as high SPL levels as dynamic microphones - although this is improving. But on the other hand they provide much, much more accurate and true frequency response. They typically come in two forms - small-diaphram ones like you've probably seen in use as drum overheads (the little thin ones) or large-diaphram front-address ones like you've probably seen vocalists singing into in a studio. Large-diaphram are better for vocals and some instruments, but they're very sensitive and fussy and generally don't get a lot of use outside of a studio environment. Small-diaphram mics have many of the advantages of dynamic mics in that they're a bit more robust and roadworthy, and they see a lot more live use.

If you're just going to buy one mic I'd recommend buying a good-quality small-diapham condenser to go over your kit. That will at least pick everything up. If you've got the money, buy a matched pair - you can't just buy another one later to get a stereo pair, you have to buy them matched. Then get an SM57 or similar which you can use for snare or bass drum at a push. Then get a D112 or Audix D6 or similar for the kick drum. After that you're most of the way there and you can probably get away with buying a set of SM57s or one of the specific tom mic sets.

That's not to say you can't use things like large-diaphram condensers in other applications. Billy Ward's DVD has him using large-diaphram mics on his toms and they sound great. Benny Greb has a groove video recorded using just two expensive large-diaphram condensers (one overhead, one on the bass drum) and it also sounds amazing. But when you get to this stuff you need to start worrying a lot more about pre-amps and such and such to make the mics really shine.

Great post. Lots of good advice here.

parser

09-07-2006, 07:28 PM

Well the way you have it set up doesn't seem to be the most effective way to get the best sound, I would have one mic further inside closer to the batter head if possible to get the attack, then the other either where you have it or around the other side of the batter away from your pedal (to avoid noise) but close to the head.

When you have multiple mics on a kit you often get phase problems, basically with the sound waves hitting the mics at different intervals you will experience it, never more so than if you have mics either side of a head, i.e. top and bottom of a snare or inside and outside of a Bass drum, you can get around this and sometimes using an Omni pattern mic inside will help, but it's worth getting some phase inverters and experimenting.

Also it's a must to have proper bass drum mics like a D112 they can handle the SPL from the drum much better than normal dynamic mics can, an SM58 for example will suffer from the proximity effect if placed too close to a head and give it an unnatural sound.

If your recording is sounding hollow my guess is it's either placement or phase problems.

I have an Audix F12 that went inside (as far as my limited stands would allow), and a SM58 for the outside. I only experienced the hollow sound on the snare during an experiment when I mic'd top and bottom - so the phase issue sounds spot on for the snare.

Here's a piece in progress with the kick mic'd exactly like in the photo. The first clip (Ha! wrong word for a recording thread I suppose) is just the drums, the second clip is with the full band to put the drum sound in context. These clips have a level mix only - no EQ, no effects - totally raw...

Togg (and NJ, and Finn), seriously thanks for all your input! I'm pretty green with recording, but I'm having a great time and all ya'll are really helping me out.

Brian

WeatherKing

09-07-2006, 09:43 PM

I've been messing around with micing too lately and have a few questions. I have a D-112 along with a CAD mic package purchased this year. I've had the D-112 laying on some foam inside the kick but just today put it on a mic stand half in-half out of the reso hole. Not exactly which way it should point...should the mesh half face inside towards the batter? Or should I leave the whole thing laying inside? Now that I have an extra kick mic from the CAD package, could I incorporate that to enhance the sound too? Perhaps placing the CAD by the pedal side of the batter like Togg had suggested?

Thanks!

Togg

09-08-2006, 11:17 AM

Well to be honest there is no right or wrong answer to that, it just depends what quality of recording you get back, if you like it then fine. I have also found that placing a D112 inside but pointing towards the inside of the reso head works well for some songs, you get a much more resonant sound, which to be fair doesn't work well for everything, but sometimes it's just worth experimenting.

Remember some of the best recordings were made with one or two mics tops, sometimes just positioned around the room and not on the drums at all.

I think you should throw convention out the window and try everything you can think of, until you find sounds that work for you.

Leaving mics on pillows will deaden the sound, having them on stands will give you a more natural sound but may pick up vibrations from the floor, use a cradle if you have one.

Your mic half in half out would I suggest pick up a lot of front head resonance, which may well work for the song, however, more attack with a less resonant sound is easier to mix into a track without it detracting from the song.

Hope this helps in same way.

Stormi

09-10-2006, 05:09 AM

I think it would be great - and try and keep some of it not too technical for those of us who are tecnologically challenged! I read some of the recording threads and it made little sense to me (like maybe use layman terms or something).

I've recorded myself a couple of times for my own benefit, just to playback and see where I'm going wrong - but it sounds awful (the sound quality, not my playing) and would be great to have the recording thread so I could find everything I need in one place.

monsterskull

09-10-2006, 10:25 PM

In my opinion ... the room size and height of the room will make a lot of difference.. because its all about how much room you give the frequencies to travel.And then offcourse the mics and everything else will add up to the overall sound being recorded.

michaelofsheffield

09-10-2006, 10:26 PM

am going to start recording for the first time soon, any good advice?anything recomended to purchase?ive been told to buy moongel?cheers.michael

monsterskull

09-10-2006, 10:38 PM

Hi guys,

I'm from India.. my band Brute Force recorded our first composition few months back.. WE want opinions about our song from you all expirienced people..
I'm basically not happy with the snare sound which we got in our recording. Could anyone gimme any suggestion/s ..

Here's the link to the MP3.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=505975

Please people help me out with the snare sound and with +ve/-ve critiscism.
thank youa all..

bighaibigdrums

09-10-2006, 11:42 PM

I kinda like that snare sound. But what dont you like about it?

Capitaine Quebec

09-11-2006, 04:03 AM

i agree with bighai, i think sound of the snare is cool, and the overall quality of the sound is good.

Batera945

09-11-2006, 04:21 AM

I dont think the snare sounds that bad either... maybe try swicthin to a bronze or steel snare or wood... to see which sound you like

monsterskull

09-11-2006, 10:31 AM

I kinda wanted that cracky sound.. tried changing skins.. i want the snare sound to cut through( offcourse i do not have as many options of gear in my country but i tried my best.)
and can anybody tell me how effective are the hydrolic skins by evans. and the base drum patch as well... really wanna try it out.

Togg

09-11-2006, 11:31 AM

I found a great tip for recording your bass drum over the weekend that I will pass on.

I am using a 24" bass drum with no pillow or damping other than a Super kick two, Front head on with small hole cut in and I use a D112 inside up to the batter head slightly off centre.

I also have my beater set to the hard side to strike the drum, so as you can imagine I get a big ring coming out, which I love! however it can get in the way n some tracks, so I have discovered that using my Protection Racket drum case as a Bass trap over the front head I need no further damping and it subdues the ring just enough to keep the feel but not interfere with the sound.

On the computer I was amazed at how the sound-wave changed when I put the case over the front, you keep the depth of the drum but lose most of the frequencies that are hard to mix later on.

Give it a go...

nate

09-11-2006, 12:07 PM

i always think that with band demos, while its good to get really, really good sounds, it's not that important - as long as people can hear what’s going on, that the main thing, right?

this recording is (for a demo) very high in quality, so whilst it good to try to better, I’d concentrate on the songs, that what record companies are listening to, they give you money, you go record with better gear...

I heard some early old radiohead demos the other day- yours is of a better sound quality.

...i think its a great recording, good work...keep writing songs

parser

09-11-2006, 07:18 PM

TopCat

09-11-2006, 07:29 PM

Slightly offtopic, but great thread!

Togg

09-13-2006, 10:56 AM

am going to start recording for the first time soon, any good advice?anything recomended to purchase?ive been told to buy moongel?cheers.michael

Well yes I guess you could have some in your back pocket, however I have found that usually a little more re-tuning solves the problems, but for those moments when you just don't seem to be able to crack it moongel is the way to go.

My best advice is to get your kit in the best possible shape before hand, take it apart before you go in, get rid of all the rattles and stuff, clean it, put new heads on, tune it well, then re-tune it on the day.

If you have a great sounding kit from the start you will get much better results, you can't change as much as you'd think in the mix, unless you have the luxury of hours and hours in protools!

Get it right first time, make the kit sound great and you will be half way there, also be sure of the sound you want before you start, get the kit to sound that way before hand so that you can re-create it. If you can't get it by tuning, you'll not get it in the studio. The room will make a big difference but, you need to be 70% there before you start.

Best of luck

monsterskull

09-13-2006, 11:05 AM

this recording is (for a demo) very high in quality, so whilst it good to try to better, I’d concentrate on the songs, that what record companies are listening to, they give you money, you go record with better gear...

...i think its a great recording, good work...keep writing songs

Thanks man.. but you know what.. we've put around 40K indian corruncy in this recording .. thats like 900$( which is obviously large sum in India.)
and 40K rupees is like 4 months saving for 4 of us....

I really wanted the cracky sound so to get that extra punch in the song.. but can anybody tell me .. can playing with different frequencies of snare drum help us..because back here in my coutry onbody supports this kinda music.. so no producers whatsoever..

can we improve that overall sound using any S/W's ..

bighaibigdrums

09-14-2006, 01:26 AM

Try an Evans HD Dry head on your snare. No ring plenty of crack.

TinChimp

09-17-2006, 06:03 PM

rendezvous_drummer

09-18-2006, 08:52 AM

Slightly offtopic, but great thread!
Thank you, I would like to thank my family and friends for believing in me.

Togg

09-18-2006, 11:03 AM

If I could pick some ones brains for a sec, I'm looking into buying some drum mics and I've been looking at a set of Red5 Audio mics, they seem like excellent value for money, but before I go splashing out on them I was wondering if anybody had any expierience with them, thanks if any body can give me advice.
Tris "TinChimp" Hall
Drummer with The Volantes

Sorry not tried them however, I can recommend the AKG Emotion series drum mics, they are not too expensive and do pack a good punch, they are sturdy enough for plenty of live gigs and also seem to come out pretty well for recording when close mics on toms are required. Not as good as some more expensive models but certainly for live work they seems pretty good.

However for recording I can completely recommend SE Electronics, there condenser mics are fantastic, in both value and quality, I have been using some of the large diaphragm models on toms and overheads, plus the smaller condenser ones as overheads, they are great the sound captured is spot on.

last man to bat

09-19-2006, 10:47 AM

I have a page on my site where I used just 2 mics to record the kit with an explanation of mics and mic placement.

I wouldn't usually use just 2 mics, however the results can be quite surprising

here's the link with an mp3 so you can hear the results

http://dansaltdog.tripod.com/id1.html

last man to bat

09-19-2006, 10:58 AM

If I could pick some ones brains for a sec, I'm looking into buying some drum mics and I've been looking at a set of Red5 Audio mics, they seem like excellent value for money, but before I go splashing out on them I was wondering if anybody had any expierience with them, thanks if any body can give me advice.
Tris "TinChimp" Hall
Drummer with The Volantes
I have used the red5 RV10, it's a bargain price and the results are pretty good, it was used in the link above.

I would say however that it picks up quite a bit of sibilance and is very sensitive around 3Khz and above, so cymbals can fizz a bit, but control that with eq and it will give really good presence. I would say that it is most suitable for vocals.

not sure about the drum mics they do but if the RV10 is anything to go by and I had a budget, I would opt for them for sure, the results of the RV10 were pretty good

But avoid close micing the drums with any condenser mic

TinChimp

09-19-2006, 12:09 PM

Thanks for the tips guys I'll bear it all in mind and see if I can post the results on here.
Cheerz
Tris

Fat S

09-20-2006, 02:11 AM

I want to record to my comp and was thinking of getting something like this:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Nady-DMK7-Drum-Mic-Package?sku=277246

what else would i need(i know mixer and cables, but what are the recommendations for that)?

any other tips would be appreciated.

Jay.B.

09-20-2006, 02:24 AM

if you're recording to your computer, get a decent sound card that has a breakout box with at least 8 jack inputs, and some audio sequencing and recording software, this will enable you to keep control over the individual mics whereas going through a desk & premixing down to a stereo output in to your PC leaves you no control over the individual track after you have recorded them..
Terratec and emu do some nices cards, and software choice is up to you, I personally prefer cubase or logic.
That should keep you going for quite a while

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

09-20-2006, 03:48 PM

Do you want to keep each mic on its own track in the mix, or do you want to just record a stereo submix? The cheapest way would be to get a mixer (with pres) and a sound interface for your PC with stereo inputs, preferably balanced that match the outputs of the mixer (i.e. XLR). If you want to keep everything seperated you will need a multitrack audio interface. You could get a Firewire interface like the Presonus Firepod, or an A/D/A converter like the Delta 1010. If you go the A/D/A route you will need some seperate preamps. If you are serious about recording you will eventually want seperate preamps any way.

So at this point you should probably decide what your recording goals are. Do you want to just do it for fun/practice, or are you looking to start a serious recording setup? If you're looking to do this just for fun/practice I would suggest just getting a mixer and a stereo audio interface. That will probably set you back a few hundred dollars more after buying the mic package you linked. If you want to go the serious recording route, I'd say pick up an A/D/A and maybe two decent preamps, scrap that mic package and get a couple decent mics. This will obviously cost you more. Probably about $1000. However, if you want to record for the long term, that will be money well spent and a great foundation to build on.

For example, if you decide to go the cheap route now and just pick up a mixer and a two channel audio interface, later on you may decide you want to keep all the mics seperated onto their own tracks. So at that point, you will have to buy another multitrack interface. If you had bought one in the first place, you would have saved yourself a couple hundred dollars down the road. Seven mics for less than $200 may sound like an awesome deal, but you may be a lot happier spending that $200 on one decent quality mic.

All you really need is one to three good mics to start with, and then you can start adding on. I would suggest starting with a small amount of mics to begin with anyway, just to learn about different placement techniques without making everything over complicated with phase issues in the beggining.

You need to figure out your goals. What you want to accomplish in the short term and the long term. Spend your money wisely. I'm not trying to discourage you from buying any recording stuff, but you should understand it is a real investment just like your drums. After you get this basic hardware stuff figured out, then you need to decide which program you want to use to record. This again is dependant on your goals. For fun recordings can be done with an inexpensive or even free programs, where as your more serious adventures will probably want to be done in a better program like Sonar (what I use). Good software costs a lot of money too.

This has been a long post. I hope it helps out in some way. Recording is definately fun.

Togg

09-21-2006, 06:38 PM

Looking forward to hearing them!

stickers

09-21-2006, 07:24 PM

Sticker's Drum Recording Guidelines

1. properly tuned drums. If you don't like the way they sound like before micing them then they wont sound the way you wont after micing then. Tune them till you get "that" sound you want. This may require a different type of heads or maybe even a different drum.

2. A good drummer (a very close 2nd)

3. A GOOD ROOM. Good= Big room more open, drums can breath, and smoother. Bad=small room..boxy/harsh( ei early reflection, big standing waves.

4. If forced with a bad room, make it dead. Pull out the moving blankets.

5. Mic Placement. Use your ears. Seriously. record. hit the drum you are checking. listen back. Is it what you want? If not move it. I put my ear up to the drum near the spot i would mic it, i move my ear around slightly till i think i found a ssweet spot, hitting the drum lightly. If changing mic placement doesn't work see #1,#3,#4 and sometimes #6. Also, if you are close micing each drum, then I would likely use the overheads for cymbals so a spaced pair. If you using just to overheads and kick then use a stereo configuration that will pick up the whole kit. This can be reserached online. For overheads, I have used use the "recorderman method"

http://www.recording.org/ftopict-9909-recorderman.html+technique

6. Gear: Mic selection. mic pre.

Also for gear recommendation: I think the best deal on the market is the Audix DP5 kit @ $650.00 5 mics: i5, D6, [2] D2s, D4. For overheads, pic a decent pair of small condensers. I use Rode nt5s.

stickers

09-21-2006, 07:24 PM

Sticker's Drum Recording Guidelines

1. properly tuned drums. If you don't like the way they sound like before micing them then they wont sound the way you want after micing then. Tune them till you get "that" sound you want. This may require a different type of heads or maybe even a different drum.

2. A good drummer (a very close 2nd)

3. A GOOD ROOM. Good= Big room more open, drums can breath, and smoother. Bad=small room..boxy/harsh( ei early reflection, big standing waves.

4. If forces with a bad room, make it dead. Pull out the moving blankets.

5. Mic Placement. Use your ears. Seriously. record. hit the drum you are checking. listen back. Is it what you want? If not move it. I put my ear up to the drum near the spot i would mic it, i move my ear around slightly till i think i found a ssweet spot, hitting the drum lightly. If changing mic placement doesn't work see #1,#3,#4 and sometimes #6. Also, if you are close micing each drum, then I would likely use the overheads for cymbals so a spaced pair. If you using just to overheads and kick then use a stereo configuration that will pick up the whole kit. This can be reserached online. For overheads, I have used use the "recorderman method"

http://www.recording.org/ftopict-9909-recorderman.html+technique

6. Gear: Mic selection. mic pre.

Also for gear recommendation: I think the best deal on the market is the Audix DP5 kick @ $650.00 5 mics: i5, D6, [2] D2s, D4. For overheads, pic a decent pair of small condensers. I use Rode nt5s.

imperfect gentleman

09-24-2006, 07:40 AM

hello everyone.

i thought i would respond a bit here. i've been an experimenter in terms of recording everything and anything. the drums have been fun as well.

currently i use a gated reverb or a reverse reverb when a medium decay...

i use your basic cad mics from a drum mic package and some condenser overheads. i also use a few cheap radio shack mics as well. more on that in a second.

i use the toms and snare mics accordingly. i put the bass drum mic half in half out.

depending on the song... since the music i/we do is very fragmented with little fills... i tend to love getting a big reverb sound on the toms...

for normal situations... i use very little on the toms... half way on the snare... a quarter for bass drum and none on overheads...

when i feel a bit more experimental... i use my cheap microphones...

i will run the cad bass drum and snare mics dry while adding a cheap mic inside the bass drum completely wet... and a mic under the snare completely wet... this is quite a sound...

i also love running stereo ambient mics around the room or two at the very end of my room...

i've also experimented with distortion on the snare and bass drum... and running cheap mics next to the overheads as well...

my analog recorder broke down a year ago, and i have since bought a digital workstation... but in my hey-day... i use to always record the drums LOUD on tape... i simply love that sound to death :)

last man to bat

09-25-2006, 11:01 AM

One other thing if using more than 2 mics, is the problem of gettinr=g the mics in phase. This can be a real problem if this isn't noticed until mixdown as cannot be corrected at this stage

The way to check if mics are out of phase is to start with one mic, usually kick, then bring in each mic using the fader and check if the sound of the first mic looses some of the frequencies. If so then move the second mic ever so slightly and try again until there is no phasing problems .

Repeat this for each mic.

this problem usually occurs with the overheads, they are the trckyest to get in phase

Togg

09-25-2006, 12:24 PM

Having a couple of phase inverters in your bag are useful additions to the studio.

You will need to use them if you are using two mics on the same drum either side of the head i.e. top and bottom of a snare or back and front of a bass drum.

When you can't get rid of it by moving the drum, a simple phase inverter will do the job.

thombo

09-26-2006, 07:18 AM

Hello fellow drummers:
I'm a beginning recordist and I'm having trouble with my snares rattling over my bass kicks.
Can anybody suggest a solution to this.

Oldie

09-26-2006, 09:16 AM

sumwatt

09-26-2006, 12:43 PM

how do you have your kit rigged for mics?

thombo

09-26-2006, 06:01 PM

how do you have your kit rigged for mics?

Hi Sumwatt, I have a 5 piece kit, Classic Ludwig Maple, I have all my drums mic'd with the Shure SM PG56's : bass is mic'd on a boom stand about 2" inches from center (hole in middle of head) pillow in bass. 2 over heads for cymbals and a condensor mic for ambient sound. I recording with the Roland VS2480-DVD so after some work I can actually get a real good recorded sound: the VS2480 is great because i can mic straight into it , equalize my
mics and boom I sound like Gadd ( sound only not really drumming quite yet) but when I do little or even big double bass licks in between I record a lot of snare rattle and I can't seem to get it out. Do you have any techniques you can share with me?

thombo

09-26-2006, 06:03 PM

You can try to retune your kick or resonant head on your snare.
Also try to align the snarewires pointing from your crotch to the kickdrum batter head.

It's hard to eliminate all ratteling, but I kinda like a little rattle from the snare...

/Frode

Hi Oldie: I tried your suggestion but still more rattle than I want on the recording, any further ideas will be very welcome

Thanks

thombo

09-27-2006, 05:36 PM

Hello All:

I'm just getting into recording : I've actually managed to get great sound with my equipment.
I'm recording with a Roland VS2480-DVD with Shure PG56 mics on all my drums and 2 ea. overheads (it's bascially a Shure starter kit) but I also use a Roland Condenser mic for ambient. The recording unit is digital and I can plug straight into it, compress the sound
and EQ every drum to get the sounds I want, I can even burn CD's or burn to DVD's with this unit; audio only however, but i am having one glitch.......my snare rattles over the bass at bit more than I like so I'm not really get that big low boom that I want without a snare rattling
sound over it.......does anybody know of a way to minimize this. Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated

Thanks in advance

Thombo

masonni

09-27-2006, 09:01 PM

OK, Tracking a song for a movie on Monday. I am thinking about playing on a 10" x 28" marching bass drum and not a normal 22"

What kind of sounds can I expect to get by playing this like a regular Kick? Think it will be cool sounding? The song is kind of like something Velvet Revolver would play. High Energy Rock!

last man to bat

09-28-2006, 04:02 PM

Cannon

09-28-2006, 04:39 PM

You could try gating the snare so that when the kick is played the snare mic will be shut. If you have the option of 'look ahead' on your gate this will stop the front end of the wave from being lost.

Failing that, tuning and/or snare tension is all i can think of

Have you tried to mute to top head of your snare drum this may change the sound a bit but it will keep the top head from vibrating causing the snares to vib....try alot of mute and work your way down to get it to a middle ground.
Cannon

last man to bat

09-28-2006, 05:19 PM

Have you tried to mute to top head of your snare drum this may change the sound a bit but it will keep the top head from vibrating causing the snares to vib....try alot of mute and work your way down to get it to a middle ground.
Cannon
good point. If the sustain of the snare is lost through muting, it can be lenghtened using compression, keep the threshold fairly low, hi ratio and attack and a natural sounding release, bit of experimenting with compression though to prevent squashing the sound too much.

Also, sustain can added with reverb, but keep it to a short decay so that it sounds part of the drum

thombo

09-28-2006, 07:07 PM

Last man to bat and Cannon:

thank you both for taking the time to reply to my questions:

I'll try your suggestions and let you know my results. Come to think of it

I didn't have this problem when I used more muting but my snare sounded like crap when

recorded. I will play around with it some more and try to use the dynamics to compensate

for the muting.

Talk to ya later

Thombo

Oldie

09-29-2006, 02:49 PM

Hi Oldie: I tried your suggestion but still more rattle than I want on the recording, any further ideas will be very welcome

Thanks
I'm a firm believer of tuning to solve this.
In emergencies you can use tape or thin paper between snare wires and resonant head. But I don't recommend this.
/Frode

hauk

10-01-2006, 08:15 PM

does anybody have any experience with behringer c-2 mics?

thombo

10-02-2006, 12:06 PM

I'm a firm believer of tuning to solve this.
In emergencies you can use tape or thin paper between snare wires and resonant head. But I don't recommend this.
/Frode

Hi Oldie

Thanks again for your input, I agree, tuning is the way to go more than effects or EQ and what not.
I'm experimenting with muting and working towards a happy medium.

Thombo

Wavelength

10-02-2006, 02:28 PM

WeatherKing

10-07-2006, 05:00 PM

i will run the cad bass drum and snare mics dry while adding a cheap mic inside the bass drum completely wet... and a mic under the snare completely wet... this is quite a sound...

I'm still experimenting with mic'ing too (with the CAD's too). Not quite sure what the recording term "wet" means. A little help?

Thanks...WK

Fat S

10-11-2006, 04:33 AM

thanks for the replies
i am not really looking to spend 1000 for recording so even though i will most likely end up replacing the cheaper mics i will get them for now. would a mixer such as the behringer 1222fx connect directly to my pc or would i need and additional interface? also would a mixer in this price range also be something that would eventually need to be replaced by a better one?

i would be using this mainly to record drums and guitar(i play both) and also for recording jams with guitarists when im playing drums.

Jay.B.

10-11-2006, 12:01 PM

If you're recording on to a PC and you want full control over each track, spending more on a multple input sound card instead of an external mixer would be a better option, as programs like cubase and logic have there own internal mixers with EQ and effects racks.

If you just want to record a single stereo track with everything pre-mixed, then get a desk, this can be used live, but for recording you won't have any control over each channel, unless you want re-record the whole thing every time you want to change the level of something.

so regardless of mic quality etc. I would still suggest a pro sound card with at least 8 separate jack or XLR audio inputs, preferably 16 if you've got synths and want to mic the whole kit, these sound cards aren't cheep, but are the single most important part of any PC recording situation, followed by software and mics, or mics then software depending on personal opinion.

Jay

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-11-2006, 04:35 PM

That mixer looks like it connects directly to the PC via USB. However, this most likely means you will only be able to send a stereo mix back and forth, so no multitracking possibilities aside from layering one stereo audio source at a time. That mixer doesn't have any MIDI inputs either, if you plan on using such. You are making a big sacrifice with that mixer though. You will have to get the drums mixed (or whatever) perfectly while you are recording, since you will not be able to make changes to individual tracks later on- only to the stereo mix. It's not an impossible thing to do, but it makes it a lot more challenging. I also imagine you will be keeping your recording setup in the same room as the drums, or at least you will be doing this by yourself, which makes getting a good mix at the board even harder- which may be something to consider towards getting a true multitrack interface. If you have a friend who can run the mixer while you're behind the kit, that would work a lot better.

Consider spending at least $60 on mic cables, and at least another $100 for mic stands. So, for almost $600 you will have a bare minimum low quality recording setup. Oh, and you will still need some software. You could get basic audio software from free to probably a couple hundred dollars- meaning you may already end up spending several hundred dollars on this setup. Pro software will be a few hundred.

Recording is an investment, just like your drums. It's not cheap. :) To give you an idea, I've probably dropped about $1200 on my recording setup over the last couple years (doesn't include software), and that was only to get my interface, a few mics, and a couple channel strips (got some great discount deals too). I am far (very far) from having the ideal setup I want. I'm trying to add to my setup slowly- as I can afford it. Each time I have extra cash, I look to see what piece of equipment I could benefit most from. However, I also have a goal of running a semi-commercial project studio some day. In addition to a wider mic and preamp selection, I want to start doing all of my mixing "out of the box" with outboard FX and just use the PC as a tape machine basically. It will probably take me another couple thousand on used gear to get to that point.

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 07:01 PM

What is the best eqipment to use if you want to "kick it old school" and record using Analog?

The medium would be tape so you would need on of these

A Analog recorder

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/rec/navigation/analog-recording-multi-track-recorders-recording?N=100001+304753&page=1

And a analog mixer

but you would not need alot of channels in a mixer as your would only have 4 channels to record on.

Jay.B.

10-12-2006, 08:12 PM

what about one of these :-) and kick it 16 track style

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-12-2006, 09:15 PM

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 10:09 PM

what about one of these :-) and kick it 16 track style

One of what? You did not post any link.

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 10:12 PM

Portable four tracks are fun. I bought one in '97 for like $400... man... hahah

With these portable four tracks you really don't need a seperate mixer since there is a mixer built into the four track. If you really want do serious analog recording, I would suggest something other than cassette. A lot of studios still use tape machines, typically 1" and 2" width tapes. You'll get more headroom from a wider tape and more tracks. Reel to reel is where analog is at.

When I was in school I took Com tech classes for 3 years. I can tell you this Analog is harder to erase mistakes that digital as there is no delete key. But I found Analog very fun to work with.

Are 8 tracks still made? or did that form of media go the way of the dinosaurs? Dumb question but did 8 tracks only have 8 songs per 8 track?

altered_beast

10-12-2006, 10:50 PM

Dumb question but did 8 tracks only have 8 songs per 8 track?

You're right, that is a dumb question. 8 track means there are 8 channels, the capacity is judged by the medium. For example, a digital 8 track recorder has enough capacity to store maybe 16 songs, or however much space is on the hard drive. Good luck with your search for smart analog stuff. I think you may struggle as digital seems to be the most widely used now, but if you do get good analog gear I'd be keen to hear the results.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-12-2006, 10:55 PM

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 11:03 PM

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 11:06 PM

To be honest it'd be much easier if you just bought yourself a multitrack recorder for the computer (eg. Cubase) and getting 'vintage style' plug ins. You'd get very frustrated as a beginner with tape and I speak from experience. I prefer tape as a recording medium, but it's a royal pain to edit and even more unreliable than Windows-based PC's. Learning basic recording principles on computer is much, much easier and then perhaps move over to tape when you've learnt how to do a good recording on computer.

I took 3 semesters of Com tech classes. Where we worked on videos in both Digital and Analog form. I am not brand new at it. But yes I can tell you that it is easier to fix mistakes in
Digiatl rather than Analog. What are these "Vintage style plug-ins you speack off"

Also I am thinking of someday getting Apple Garage band and a cheap mac to run it on.

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 11:10 PM

You're right, that is a dumb question. 8 track means there are 8 channels, the capacity is judged by the medium. For example, a digital 8 track recorder has enough capacity to store maybe 16 songs, or however much space is on the hard drive. Good luck with your search for smart analog stuff. I think you may struggle as digital seems to be the most widely used now, but if you do get good analog gear I'd be keen to hear the results.

Ok I was not around when 8 tracks were sold. So I have no clue. So I have to disagree with that it was a stupid question. If I did not ask it I would still be thinking that a 8 track tape had only 8 songs on each (unit what was a 8 track disc called). I was only born in 86. All I rember is cassetes for a while in the mid 90's then CD's. That is it.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-12-2006, 11:11 PM

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 11:18 PM

Explain in a paragraph what wow and flutter is. That should put you off tape as a primary recording medium at first...

The fact that you don't know what '8 tracks' means suggests to me that those Com studies lessons weren't that useful after all.

I have not kept up with my skills. I am a recent graduate. I did the classes grade 9,10,11,
so it has been 2 years since I have been in the studio. And no I never recorded anything. I edited using Analog. What appealed to be is that alot of the music I like was orginally done in Analog so I would like to learn how to use it. I thought becuase I had some experience doing video editing in analog. I would having a little understnading as to how it worked.

You proved be wrong, I have no clue what wow and flutter is. Would you like to tell me?

Wow is a relatively slow form of flutter (pitch variation) which can affect both gramophone records and tape recorders. In the latter, the collective expression "wow and flutter" is commonly used. Flutter: In electronics is rapid variation of signal parameters, such as amplitude, phase, and frequency. In structures, rapid periodic motion caused by interaction of structural mass, stiffness, and aerodynamic forces.

(I got it off wiki)

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-12-2006, 11:28 PM

Try to record any kind of 'pure tone' instruments with reel to reel and you'll know what wow and flutter is. It's a royal pain is what it is.

I'm just starting a two year course in specialised Music Tech, hoping to go into a career as a sound engineer eventually. We're using Macs with Logic and sweet Jesus isn't it half easy! I love Logic... I'm sorely tempted I must say. The editing and recording features once you learn the procedures are just so easy to use and manipulate. Time consuming, but within twenty minutes of first sitting down I had a convincing sound module running an old Moog emulator and I was adjusting the envelope and adding simulated tape delay etc. Twenty minutes?! I'm not even that smart.

I will admit though, that I much, much prefer the sound of a well recorded tape. Dark Side of the Moon for instance, what Alan Parsons could do with those old machines was, frankly amazing. The problem is, that if you're not that good with tape, it'll sound awful and there's no way around it. At least with a computer you have the options of easier editing even if the eventual playback medium (CD's) is inherently crap.

Supersteve

10-12-2006, 11:51 PM

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-12-2006, 11:59 PM

Supersteve

10-13-2006, 12:02 AM

White noise could quite easily be put in if you just record a track with some excess gain on it. Or... alternatively there's probably plenty of plugins to put white noise on tracks. Really not all that difficult to be honest.

Hmmm.. is this using Garage Band? That is what was often heard between tracks on a casste tape correct? I have nver used a mac or recored music before so I cannot say if it is easy or not as I have never done it.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-13-2006, 12:05 AM

No GarageBand for me. Logic for me! Good fun that programme is.

Supersteve

10-13-2006, 12:22 AM

No GarageBand for me. Logic for me! Good fun that programme is.

Have you ever used GarageBand?

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-13-2006, 12:24 AM

Personally, no. But GarageBand is basically a watered down version of Logic. Logic is ridiculously easy to use even for a beginner and I've heard that GarageBand is actually fairly usable. Stu_Strib's your man if you want to talk about GarageBand.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-13-2006, 12:52 AM

I think Supersteve was asking about 8-track cartridges, not an actual multitrack recorder. I think he was just a little confused, with good merit. 8-tracks were replaced by cassette tapes. Here's a Wiki link for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-track_cartridge

There is some good music on 8-tracks, and a lot of it can be bought on CD now or other formats. One of my old roommates had an 8-track player. It was fun. They even used to put them in cars... before the days of Satellite Radio, CDs, and cassette tapes.

I would agree that editing in digital is much easier than in the analog realm. I record all digital myself. However, there is a certain quality of sound with analog... the effect an audio signal has when it passes through an actual analog circuit is just different than one that is represented by 1s and 0s (digital).

A lot of studios still use tape. It does take some experience to get into, but I honestly don't think it is any harder than learning everything about digital recording. You will have to spend money on good tape though. My bandmate has an old Tascam 388 (8trk reel to reel - not to be confused with 8trk cartridges mentioned above) over here. It's been sitting here for months unused. I want to use it, but I don't have all the FX I am used to using "in the box", so I haven't bothered. I'm happy working in the digital realm for now. Eventually I want to get more outboard FX so I can do my mixdowns in the analog realm, and basically use my PC as a tape machine.

It's not uncommon for studio owners to have hybrid setups now. Some like to use the PC just as a tape machine, in combination with all of their outboard gear. Others prefer to record to tape first, and then dump everything into the digital domain for editing and mixing. There are various combinations of both. No doubt digital recording is here to stay.

If you are real interested in recording, I highly recommend you get a subscription to Tape Op mag and check out their forums at http://www.tapeop.com. You will find a wealth of information there coming from project studio owners to full blown commercial studio owners. In the end what matters most is what is easier for you to use and what sounds the best to you, etc. The digital vs analog debate will go on forever I think, and there are pros and cons to both. Good written songs will be appreciated regardless of the medium they are recorded on.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-13-2006, 01:05 AM

I'm sorely tempted by your mention of a hybrid system, Sleepy. The idea of recording to tape and dumping to PC sounds as if you can have the advantages of both with few of the drawbacks. There is something inherently real about having that old-fashioned effects rack though. I guess I'm always going to see the disadvantages of both and try and get the best I can from both. Really, when it comes down to it, digital versus analogue becomes irrelevant if the band you're trying to record or the music you're trying to record is crap.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-13-2006, 01:56 AM

So true, so true!

I had the intention of tracking to the Tascam and then dumping to digital. The trick is getting a word clock. You have to get a word clock to print the time data to one track on the tape machine (so you lose one audio track- no biggie). Then, when you are ready to dump to the PC, you feed the audio from that data track into the word clock again, but this time it converts it to MTC, which is then fed to the PC via MIDI. The PC follows the tape machine. This way, you can record a few tracks on the tape machine, dump to digital, and continue overdubbing on the tape machine, while previous tracks are played back from the PC in sync! Depending on the tape machine, you could get one that will follow the PC instead. It's better to let the PC follow the tape though because of wow and flutter. I've heard of people getting great results from this, and some people not getting so great results. I never bought the extra gear to try it out.

The whole idea came from studio owners who already owned a bunch of analog gear, and to stay competitive, bought some digital items and integrated them together. I've seen many advertisements for studios where they have seperate quotes for tape and Pro Tools.

My ideal setup uses the PC for editing and analog for mixing. I love the hands on approach with analog. I know you can get control surfaces for the PC, but it's just not the same. Each piece of analog gear has it's own coloring, you know? I'll eventually get to that point. It's a slow trip since I can't put as much money into it as I'd like to. I already have a decent 16 channel analog board with a beautiful spring reverb. I just lack the outboard FX. Of course, you can never have too many mics or pres to select from when recording!

altered_beast

10-13-2006, 10:43 AM

Ok I was not around when 8 tracks were sold. So I have no clue. So I have to disagree with that it was a stupid question. If I did not ask it I would still be thinking that a 8 track tape had only 8 songs on each (unit what was a 8 track disc called). I was only born in 86. All I rember is cassetes for a while in the mid 90's then CD's. That is it.

Mate, I wasn't having a dig, I was merely quoting you -

Dumb question but did 8 tracks only have 8 songs per 8 track?

Seems I got it wrong anyway, Ignorance is bliss eh? To be fair, we all ask dumb questions else we wouldn't learn.

altered_beast

10-13-2006, 10:47 AM

Since we're discussing between digital and analog recording can anyone suggest a site (preferably UK based) where I can have a look at some external sound cards that can be used for recording stuff, preferably with 8 mic inputs or more...

Thanks!

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-13-2006, 04:44 PM

altered_beast - There are quite a few interfaces with 8 inputs. Depends on your budget and what extra features you want. I think one of the best deals is the Delta 1010. That includes a PCI card that goes into your PC, and a cable that hooks up to a rack mounted box that has 8 i/o's. It's an A/D/A converter. Something like that is great if you plan on getting a bunch of outboard gear. That's what I would like to upgrade to eventually.

Tascam makes a couple units that have a lot more features including a control surface if you plan to do most of the work 'in the box'. Around the same price range Presonus has a couple units that are great like the Firepod. Close to the price range of the nicer Tascam unit there is the Mackie stuff and of course the dedicated Pro Tools control surfaces. Everything I just mentioned is connected via Firewire aside from the Delta 1010. These are units that have gotten great reviews. I personally own the Presonus Firebox (only 4 in / 6 out).

If you want to do some nice recording, I would opt for an external interface like one of the Firewire ones as oposed to an average consumer level PCI sound card. USB interfaces are OK for one or two tracks, but I hear a lot of people (including my bandmate) with latency issues still. The A/D/A route is the proffessional way to go. That's simply a dedicated analog to digital to analog converter. No extras like mic pres so you will have to get those seperate. However, in a pro setup you would want seperate mic pres anyway.

I don't know of any dealers specific to the UK, but I imagine you could get any of these units there.

Jay.B.

10-15-2006, 06:21 PM

One of what? You did not post any link.

sorry dude, link bummed out, was in a hurry to get gone and I messed up, I appologise.

Supersteve

10-16-2006, 11:24 PM

sorry dude, link bummed out, was in a hurry to get gone and I messed up, I appologise.

That is ok, What do you think of this style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo-fi_music

Would Bonzo recording in a stiar well be considered "lo-fi"

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-16-2006, 11:28 PM

No, Bonzo's wouldn't. Because the equipment they were using was top notch and it wasn't necessarily for an 'old school' sound.

As far as I see it, you should learn to record 'hi fi' sound first and then use that knowledge to record 'lo fi'. Basically, if you can't record 'hi fi' then learn to do it so you know what not to do when you go for the other sounds. However, recording solely in 'lo fi' wouldn't really teach you much about the cleaner and better produced recordings.

altered_beast

10-17-2006, 12:12 AM

lo fi ska : / lo fi grunge : ) lo fi metal : ( lo fi "vintage" : O hehe. sorry, I was only kidding. I'll wait til I have something to contribute before I post again... ; )

Supersteve

10-17-2006, 12:18 AM

lo fi ska : / lo fi grunge : ) lo fi metal : ( lo fi "vintage" : O hehe. sorry, I was only kidding. I'll wait til I have something to contribute before I post again... ; )

LOL that is funny man. :-).

tamadrummer132

10-21-2006, 11:42 PM

i have some sony tape recorder.... i want to video tape my drumming and put it on my comp but i only got the tapes- any clue on how to switch that over onto something else to get it onto a computer?

vedox1024

10-24-2006, 08:33 AM

i wish i had read this before my first time in the studio. Don't underestimate the attack of your bass drum. I gave the engineer free reign in micing my drums, and he immediately pulled off the front head of my bass, stuck a pillow in there, and put a mic in front of it. When it was mixed in with the rest of the music, it was gone. You could only faintly hear a low pulse, not a thumpy bass drum. so it may sound bad from your end, but for recording, lots of bass drum attack is your friend. Think about plastic beaters, or taping a piece of drumhead above where your beater hits, and letting it hang down.

also, be careful with reverb. at the studio i went to, after we recorded the plain track, and he was adding effects, he went a bit overkill on the reverb on all my drums. He had really nice speakers, and it didn't sound bad. When we played it in the car on the way home, you couldn't pick out all the individual sounds and it sounded like mush. even more bass drum gone, not to mention toms rolling into eachother, and cymbals sounding like a whiper washing into eachother.

I'm sure everyone else knows a lot more about recording than i do, but these are my thoughts about my first recording experience.

vedox1024

10-24-2006, 09:00 AM

one thing that i've done in the past that hasn't been mentioned here yet is to loosen the 4 lugs right next to the snares. some people even go so far as to take them out, though... i wouldn't recommend it. just try loosening those and tightening the other 4. with a little playing around, this should stop the bass drum, people talking, toms, and other instruments from making that obnoxious buzz sound.

nate

10-24-2006, 12:23 PM

Is the snare buzz really loud enough to be unpleasant? Record a few minutes of the whole kit. Play different grooves and fills and try different dynamics. Usually the buzz is most apparent when a single drum is struck, but when playing the whole kit (and with a band) the buzz blends in just nicely, and it brings some warmth to the overall sound. I like the sound of kick combined with a bit of buzz. It brings more color to the boom (or thud, whichever sound you use).

If you find the buzz still too annoying, try loosening the snare's resonant head and tightening the batter. Other than not using the snares at all, there's no way to eliminate snare buzz entirely. The sound waves from the bass drum are going to excite the snare's heads no matter what. Learn to live with it, and if you can, learn to enjoy it.

i think when recording, a snare the buzz can be really annoying, esp. if your playing a pattern on the toms and the snare is buzzing away, even with the whole band playing you can hear snare buzz in parts of the tune you don't want it it....i've found 3 ways around this:

1. tunning.
2. tape
3. drop in: if you have parts on the toms and the buzz is killing it, simply play the song once and don't play this part, do another take (keeping the 1st take) turn the snare off and play the other parts. Not as hard as you'd think.

sorted.

Peter W.

10-24-2006, 12:41 PM

Well, there's buzz and overtones, and then there's ANOYING buzz and overtones. It's okay that the instrument sounds like one instrument, with the different pieces affecting each other.

Back to the question. If the heads are old, if the heads are damaged, if the snares are old or damaged, it will be difficult to achieve a more pure and pleasant sound. So check that out first.

I had kind of the same problem than you. There was to much snare, said the soundengineer. And I had a 4" snare, so the batter head affected the bottomhead more easily.

So here's what I did:
1. First I changed the snare head to a thicker head (Remo coated Emperor, but some uses Pinstripe or Powerstroke for a even more controlled sound - It will also control the snarebuzz).
2. Then I took a plyer and cut some of the strainers of (including two in the middle), to the point were there's only 12 strands left.
3. I tuned the batter head to a B, and the bottom head to a F, and put a small piece of Moongel on the top (between two lugs).
4. There you go! I'm pretty satisfied with the sound....

Good Luck!

Peter W.

10-24-2006, 02:18 PM

Sorry, lost my brain. Offcourse I changed the BATTER head to a Remo coated Emperor....

sKarr

10-28-2006, 10:17 PM

E-rock

11-03-2006, 03:56 PM

How do you get you're bass drums to sound the same? For the life of me I can't matchem up. I'm using pearl world series drums. Last time I recorded(with theses drums) with 2 kicks the guy at the studio new what was up( Bill Korecky)who does Mushroomhead. Now I'm in a Local studio and we can't get the basses to some close. Ive tune the crap out of then, tried detuning ,pillows side ways ,blankets over the kicks.Do I need a program or somthing?
The studio is Digital 24 trac. He has no pro tools?

hardhitter

11-03-2006, 07:28 PM

I had this problem! It was the stupidest thing. It was the mic. Try switching the mics and see if does it on the other bass.

It could also be that you are hitting one harder then the other moving more air out your port. This is fixed with foam over the mic. I'm not sure how you are running your mic?

DrumMasterDave

11-03-2006, 08:53 PM

These days you can usually Sample and Eq this problem out, so i wouldnt be too worried when it comes to studio mixing. But that is a problem i get too, my left foot is not as strong as my right, so i will get a different sound.

Spence

11-20-2006, 03:49 PM

Re: Snare Buzz.

I once placed a credit card between the snare wire and the head. Stopped the buzz and the snare still sounded great.

groovemaster_flex

11-27-2006, 11:38 PM

Ok... I just got an 8-channel mixer... 6 mics... and a PC with Audacity. I can record right? Am I missing anything???

Can I record direct to PC like this, or am I missing a pre-amp? I got all this stuff from my friend for about 150$, all mics are Shure sm56 or 57, and not sure the mixer brand. I think he got it from The Source. I'm just trying to learn to mix and record before I buy anything too expensive.

So, am I set?

PBW

11-28-2006, 12:49 AM

We need a very good interface that can record drums, so far i've been looking at the brand mbox and all of theirs only have two microphone ports and we need around 5-6 ports to record drums.

If anyone gets a really professional sound please tell me what all you use, including microphones.

Thanks!

*Budget is not an issue right now.

I have an M-Audio 1010LT sound card in my PC. It has 10 inputs (8 analog, 2 digital) and 10 outputs. It's a bargain!!

http://www.amazon.com/MIDIMAN-1010-LT-Digital-Audio-System/dp/B000085ZKX

The 1010LT only has 2 mic preamps, so I got a Yamaha MG16/4 mixer to front-end it and power my other mics: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MG16-4

I'm using 4x AKG C419 clip-on condenser percussion mics. They're not ideal, but they're all I got at present. I can get a good sound by using 2 of them as overheads in X-Y configuration, one on the kick drum and one on the snare.

Then I record each channel in to cubase so I can apply effects to each channel separately (gate, eq, compression etc).

altered_beast

11-28-2006, 01:20 AM

I have an M-Audio 1010LT sound card in my PC. It has 10 inputs (8 analog, 2 digital) and 10 outputs. It's a bargain!!

http://www.amazon.com/MIDIMAN-1010-LT-Digital-Audio-System/dp/B000085ZKX

The 1010LT only has 2 mic preamps, so I got a Yamaha MG16/4 mixer to front-end it and power my other mics: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MG16-4

I'm using 4x AKG C419 clip-on condenser percussion mics. They're not ideal, but they're all I got at present. I can get a good sound by using 2 of them as overheads in X-Y configuration, one on the kick drum and one on the snare.

Then I record each channel in to cubase so I can apply effects to each channel separately (gate, eq, compression etc).

Right, I don't really understand computer recording, but I already have a Yamaha MG12/4 so I have similar equipment to you. I don't understand how you use that console as a pre-amp unit, how do you run the line outs to the remaining channels on the sound card? Cos the 12/4 only has a mic input for each channel, not an output. there is an st out but i assume you don't run that into the sound card do you?

I'm considering getting this sound card for make shift and demo recordings...

Cheers

Al

PBW

11-28-2006, 12:29 PM

Right, I don't really understand computer recording, but I already have a Yamaha MG12/4 so I have similar equipment to you. I don't understand how you use that console as a pre-amp unit, how do you run the line outs to the remaining channels on the sound card? Cos the 12/4 only has a mic input for each channel, not an output. there is an st out but i assume you don't run that into the sound card do you?

I'm considering getting this sound card for make shift and demo recordings...

Cheers
Al

The 16/4 has direct outputs ("insert points" they are called) for the first 8 channels. What this means is you can connect the direct output for each channel to an input on the soundcard. So the signal comes into the mixer, thru the preamp, then is routed out of the direct output to the sound card, so I can record it directly into the computer on its own channel. I don't need to use the stereo outs.

Looking at the manual, the MG12/4 appears to have 4 direct outputs (on channels 1-4). However you can also route signals to the mixer's bus, which give you 2 more outputs.... so you effectively have 4 direct outs plus 2 channels for the bus output (left + right) plus 2 channels for the stereo out (L + R) = 8 outputs overall to feed the 8 analog inputs of your new 1010LT!!

<edit>

I see also that your 12/4 mixer has only 4 mic preamps. Fortunately, the first 2 inputs on the 1010LT card have their own on-board mic preamps - they also have mic XLR jacks so you can connect 2 mics direct to the card. These can be turned on/ off with a switch on the soundcard. So you would have a total of 6 mic preamps at your disposal (2 on the sound card + 4 on your mixer).

<end of edit>

themac5150

12-06-2006, 10:35 AM

Is there any good way to use one overhead, and one somewhere in front of the set for recording or just use both overhead. One or two mics are the only option for me right now.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

12-06-2006, 03:32 PM

Is there any good way to use one overhead, and one somewhere in front of the set for recording or just use both overhead. One or two mics are the only option for me right now.

I prefer to use one overhead with my drums right now. I'm using a small diaphragm condenser in omni mode, right smack in the middle of my kit just over my head where I sit. It picks up most of the kit very well (has a lot to do with how you play). I only use two other mics with this setup- one on kick and one on snare. If you could only use two mics, I would use one overhead and one on kick. I would put the overhead above the snare (still above your head). That's what I would try at first.

Fat Elvis

12-06-2006, 07:23 PM

I prefer to use one overhead with my drums right now. I'm using a small diaphragm condenser in omni mode, right smack in the middle of my kit just over my head where I sit. It picks up most of the kit very well (has a lot to do with how you play). I only use two other mics with this setup- one on kick and one on snare. If you could only use two mics, I would use one overhead and one on kick. I would put the overhead above the snare (still above your head). That's what I would try at first.

i agree -- with two mic's only, one on the kick and one over head (over the snare) is best.

themac5150

12-07-2006, 02:36 AM

I'll try it. I was just fishing for ideas. I wanted to know if any one else had done it with the front mic a little bit farther back with decent results. I can only record 2 tracks simultaneously, its all I've got and will have for a while, I want to get the best sound I can with 2 mics and get some of the fullness of the drums. I was thinking there may be a good position out front, but recording is all new to me, I don't know anything about the positioning, how to avoid phasing problems, etc. Been researching it online, sometimes the information is helpful, sometimes its way over my head. Any tips are appreciated. I tried to read all of this thread, but its so long, and sifting out good info from useless is challenging.

Nick45498

12-07-2006, 11:20 AM

I usually record my drumplaying with my mobile and have no problems...=)

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

12-07-2006, 03:50 PM

I should also suggest another common way to record with two mics. It's called the recorderman technique. It uses two over heads equal distance from the snare and kick. It's similar to the Glen Johns technique (which is also worth looking at).

Check out this link. Second post down gives you a pretty good idea, but I know there's a video online some where of someone demonstrating it.

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=35177&goto=nextoldest

Also, for just one mic, try using a large diaphragm condenser out in front at least a few to several feet, level with about the top of the kick drum. This should pick up most of the kit with the kick, although it may not be the desired end sound you want. That's a great spot for a room mic to blend with your other mics though. Great for just recording practices, etc.

The best way is to just get a couple mics to start with, and start experimenting! I can only use four mics on my kit (if I want to keep them all separated in the mix), so I've been trying a few different things over the last year. I've described what I like to use now. My fourth mic is usually just a room mic if used. Don't try learning everything about mic'ing drums in one night. It'll take some time. Don't get over whelmed. Read as much as you can, and try it out.

Moving a mic just a couple inches can really change the sound. Phase issues are certainly something to think about, but using only a couple mics to start with will seriously help to eliminate phase issues. This is when you really have to use your ears. Try flipping the phase on a mic if you think there's a problem, try moving the placement of one... etc.

skeletonowl

12-09-2006, 02:27 AM

my drums are in a small room since we can't fit em anywhere else so having my computer nd mike on one side of the room and drums on the other works great

TalkShowMan

12-09-2006, 05:44 AM

Evening all, a hardware question for you knowledgeable folks regarding the M-Audio projectmix. Just wondering if anyone had any experiences of this particular item, my main questions and areas of wonderment are;

1) How does it compare with other control surfaces/interfaces - specifically the Tascam FW1884 and Digidesign Digi 002 board?

2) What are the pre-amps like and has anyone used them as the main input for the mics? I've heard this referred to as "hot-plugging" though I may have my definitions confused, and was wondering if this was a bad thing (with a name like hotplugging it sounds bad)

3) Eventually I'd like to incorporate an external preamp unit (specifically the M-Audio Octane unit, a la Shawn Pelton, because of the AD converters and ADAT output). Is this a good plan or should I make the Octane the priority over the actual Projectmix.

4) Final question. I'd like to use Sonar as my main DAW, I have a better feeling about it over Cubase and Protools (plus I like the instrument icons in the fader section - I'm easily swayed. No, it's really because of the potential 64bit processing and favourable reviews). Does anyone have any experience of this combination of hardware and software, and how has it worked out for you?

Any feedback, thoughts, or opinions would be mucho appreciado. I look forward to hearing your sage-like wisdom.

last man to bat

12-11-2006, 05:36 PM

I still use an analogue recording system, it depends what you are after and how much time you have I guess. Tape saturation and warmth are the main reason for analogue still being used as a recording medium, often tracked on to tape, then put into digital format for all of its advantages of ease of use and editing etc.

Analogue is a fine medium and all the rock and roll greats have recorded onto it with some fantastic results. More and more modern bands are looking to recreate the 'tape' sound in the studio using digital, or by using studios like Toerag studios.

Having said that, unless ther is a huge pot of money for your home studio, go digital. It will save you money, time and the result will pretty impessive, after all, it is the skill of tracking and mixing that will make the difference, more so than the medium you use

Will Hendrix

12-13-2006, 07:50 AM

last man to bat

12-13-2006, 03:44 PM

Have a question. I'm having alot of trouble getting a defined attack out of my toms, but don't want to resort to muffling as I like a very deep, full sound with lots of resonance. Any micing and eq techniques I could use to achieve this?
You shoud be able to do that with a bit of eqing. Boost the top end, anything above and including 3khz. Play around with these frequencies until you get some of the stick sound and the atack that you are after. Rolling off a bit of the low end will give the toms more punch too. also if you leave the toms too bassy they can really muddle the mix when other instruments are added, but its a fine balance, as too much bottom end cut can make the toms sound shallow and unrealistic.

But I reckon the answer is all in the eq.

last man to bat

12-13-2006, 05:24 PM

As far as recording drums using 2 mics, I did this a little while ago for a friend

http://dansaltdog.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/drums-dry.mp3

and here is an explanation:

The first position (0-1.00) is using a SM58 snare side and a PG56 floor tom side. Both are snare height and in line with the batter side of the kick, two feet from the kit pointing towards the snare.

The second position (1.00-2.00) is using two PG56s. Both are one foot from the floor and five feet apart, approx three feet from the from the resonant side of the kick, pointing upwards at 45 degrees.

The third position (2.00-3.00) is using an RV10 condensor and a PG81. Both are approx seven feet high and six feet in front of the kit, approx fifteen feet apart, pointing slightly downwards towards the centre of the kit.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

12-14-2006, 05:41 AM

Have a question. I'm having alot of trouble getting a defined attack out of my toms, but don't want to resort to muffling as I like a very deep, full sound with lots of resonance. Any micing and eq techniques I could use to achieve this?

Have you tried close-miking your toms? Have the mic peek just over the rim a couple inches, looking down towards the center of the head where your stick hits. Also, have you tried coated heads if you are using clears?

PBW

12-15-2006, 01:30 PM

Some good info on miking up a kit here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/dec97/drumiking1.html

And more info on how to EQ / mix it all:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan98/articles/drummik.htm

ozzie

12-16-2006, 09:12 AM

I'm thinking Nutha is going to add this to his bottomless bag of tricks.

=-)

I love the great (and practical) advice that keeps popping up here.

I just had to laugh out loud on this comment...of course I haven't trie the umbrella thing yet....I do have one over my fish pond (which I might try) but I have to duct tape over the holes. P.S. I live in Fla. and the umbrella helps keep the 100 gallon pond cool...like me !

ozzie

12-16-2006, 09:37 AM

Hi folks.

I have a couple of questions for experienced drummers.
I am not a drummer, I can play a few basic beats but thats it.
I am building a recording studio and have a place for a drum kit.

I bought this old drum kit off a friend 5 years ago and it has been stored under the stairs and never really used. I think it is a mixture of premier/pearl drums.
Anyway, what I want to know is about cymbals. The cymbals on the kit of crap. Dirty, worn and dull sounding. As this kit is to be used for recording I am after a new set of cymbals (including hi-hats). I guess a ride and a crash and the hats will do for now.
Unfortunately I am on a tight budget. I have been looking on ebay and there seems to be packs of cymbals for sale in my Price range along with second hand individual cymbals.

What I am looking for is a crisp clean sound for recording rather than something designed for heavy gigging use. My budget is no more than £150/$200 - the cheaper the better as I have other things to purchase for the studio.
If anyone can suggest makes/models to consider/avoid I would be very grateful.

My other intention was to replace the skins on the drums. There is a snare, kick, two toms and floor tom. What are a good make of skins? Is there a standard way to work out the size of the skins in need? Should I take the old ones off and measure or what?
And is it necessary to replace the under skins (the skins you don't hit)?

Thanks for any advice and your time helping me.

Regards,

Orb
I must be as new as you and I can tell you a few things from what I learned,,'cause I went through the same thing. Cymbals were one of my toughest buying decisions..I am still looking for a good crash and not totally happy with my ride. It's unlikely you'll get/find the sound you are looking for in a "pack"..best to shop around for the sound you are looking for (that means an actual hands on stick banging experience. (even this won't consider room acoustics if you are field testing). AND the drum skin is an even bigger decision because you can be very critical when it comes to the way a new skin makes a drum sound. Granted ...better skins yield better sound but there is so much more involved...fortunately skins aren't near as expensive as cymbals ..just a little more time consuming to install...I still have the same 5 ply birch shells but have been through a # of various skins just looking for Mr. right ! I realize it time for new shells but the cymbals remain my priority and should be yours ,too since it will involve more money and actual hands on just trying to find that "perfect" sound.

drummerJOE

01-05-2007, 05:33 AM

I'm interested in a budget mic set,
what do you guys think of this?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/CAD-PRO7-7Piece-Drum-Microphone-Pack?sku=270749

Pearldrummermark

01-05-2007, 06:21 PM

Hey man, i bought a set of JTS TX Series 7-piece drum mics. I've recorded with them and played live on many occasions and they are fantastic. I used to work for a professional sound and lighting company and my collegue tested the mics and agreed they were great value for money. Cheack em out!!! I got them trade price and cant remember how much the retail cost is.!sorry!

Mark Earl

drummerJOE

01-08-2007, 12:33 AM

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/CAD-6Piece-Drum-Mic-Pack?sku=270776

This one looks like slightly better quality, and the number is fine because i play a 4 piece.

suggestions?
I'm probably going to buy soon.

edit: i looked around for those JTS mics, but they seemed somewhat obscure.

jiltednut

01-16-2007, 06:16 AM

I honestly have no clue about recording but I'd love to learn, are either of these suitable for my initial excursions into the world of recording??

http://www.zzounds.com/a--25836/item--AARAARK24

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ECHLAYLA3G

Worth buying??

And just for the record I need to record 2 guitars, and I have 4 mics ( 2 overheads, 1 snare and 1 kick ).

Cheers guys!!

Skynman

02-10-2007, 12:01 PM

If you want to avoid a lot of hassle's in recording check out some of the newer mixers on the market they will allow you to record directly from the mixer! Peavey 16fx mixer etc. there is a lot of newer equipment on the market that you can hook up to your computer with. This has it's advantages because you can record at a club your playing in or lay down tracks individually later on or one at a time! As far as being short on channels you can use two mixers by tying them in through a channel to your main mixer giving you more mic options or instrument channels! Learning PA equipment takes time but it is something every drummer should learn about! Understanding the PA equip. will eliminate a lot of problems about recording and related issues! There are two ways to record drums either by mic.or by trigger I do not care for triggers on cymbals prefer mic. use an over head on cymbals and snare but triggers work well on bass drum and toms! Just a few ideas for you to kick around!

SleightOfHand

02-10-2007, 10:33 PM

Ok I have 4 mics to use, and a mixer with 4 inputs that runs into a Tascam DP-01fx.
This means that other than mixing the final overall drum track, nothing can be done to the sound so getting the best possible sound from the source is critical, and I am not currently happy with what I am hearing.

I always use one mic in the bass, and one on the snare.
The other 2 are usually changed from recording to recording, as I am experimenting with them trying to get the best possible sound.

I have tried over head facing down 3-6 feet apart, underhead 2 feet off the ground facing up towards cymbals while catching shell reso from toms, from the sides of the kit facing inward pointing at the hi-hat and low toms on opposite ends (so the mic by the hit hat is pointed at the low tom at the other side of the kit) and the criss cross technique at a 90 degree angle.

I am wondering what the proper way to use these techniques is, and which you think is the best. I just think I am not doing them correctly.

One reason is because with the overheads I either get strong cymbals and weak toms, or strong toms and weak cymbals depending on where they are placed.

What do you think?

Edit:: Also note that I found the sound of the drums to be great live, but once they are on the recording they seem thin and weak.
Also even with the overheads hard panned, Its hard to hear that it is, if you know what I mean.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

02-11-2007, 08:03 AM

One reason is because with the overheads I either get strong cymbals and weak toms, or strong toms and weak cymbals depending on where they are placed.

In addition to keeping one mic on snare and one on kick, you could just have one OH, and possibly add a room mic. Are you checking for phase cancellation between your mics? Especially your OHs if you are using a stereo pair.

Without close miking your kit a lot depends on your ability to control dynamics. Try to hit your cymbals lighter. You don't need to bash them as hard as you do in a live setting. Try lowering your cymbals to hover just above your toms. This is what I prefer to do, but it also requires decent dynamic control as I mentioned first.

SleightOfHand

02-11-2007, 04:52 PM

In addition to keeping one mic on snare and one on kick, you could just have one OH, and possibly add a room mic. Are you checking for phase cancellation between your mics? Especially your OHs if you are using a stereo pair.

Without close miking your kit a lot depends on your ability to control dynamics. Try to hit your cymbals lighter. You don't need to bash them as hard as you do in a live setting. Try lowering your cymbals to hover just above your toms. This is what I prefer to do, but it also requires decent dynamic control as I mentioned first.

To get the tone I like out of my B8 Pro cymbals they need a good wack.
There isn't any cancellation, atleast from what I can see. The waves seem to move together in phase.

MetalGrand

02-13-2007, 04:01 AM

Hello. I am a complete noob when it comes to drum mics and I am looking into some Samsons (I'm on a tight budget). I was wondering what I would need to hook the mics up to and how I would get them on the computer and sync with the video of me playing once I get the mics. Please tell me what I would need to buy. (I need to know EVERYTHING that I must buy from scratch.[I have nothing yet so I need to know]) I hope that kinda made sense. Thanks a bunch!

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

02-13-2007, 07:25 AM

To get the tone I like out of my B8 Pro cymbals they need a good wack.

I had a 16" B8 Thin Crash that I really liked the sound of. However, it really lacked dynamic range. Like you said, it needed a good whack to get the sound I wanted. Nothing really happened with a soft hit- kind of a clang. My new crash cymbals have a nice dynamic range which I really love. I can barely hit them for soft accents, or lay into them for the wall of sound.

I had a similar issue when I was borrowing a 22" Zildjian A Ping Ride. It was a beautiful sounding ride, but very loud. It was dominating in my OH. Even when I tried to hit it soft it was loud. Hah! I suppose that's why it's good to have a nice collection of cymbals to choose from.

Spence

03-01-2007, 03:54 PM

Hello Recording Drums forum!

I've pretty much read all the posts. One thing I have not seen mentioned is Logic Pro 7. Now I'm planning on using this software for my home studio. All of my friends use it and some of them are well known producers. So I figured if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

I was wondering if any of you chaps (or ladies) have any experience with Logic Pro, specifically when it comes to recording drums. I already have Reason and GarageBand, but I want to learn how to use Logic as it seems to be good for just about anything.

Thanks in advance.

Anduin

03-01-2007, 07:53 PM

Logic Pro 7.

I don't run Logic myself, but I've recorded with it a few times. I recommend it. I consider it one of the big three along with Pro Tools.

xush

03-23-2007, 10:08 PM

My band is using Logic presently, very happy with it.

iceagecomin

03-31-2007, 05:52 PM

I just recently posted a thread with a link to my recordings in the YOUR PLAYING section, but i found this thread and thought i could post some of the info about the low-tech but effective way I recorded my drums.

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25383
www.myspace.com/blushresponsedemos

The tracks i have up right now started out as drums i recorded on a boombox with a small audio pickup, I record the drums at a practice space separately since i can't play them in my apartment which is where i use the rest of my instruments and digital recorder.The boombox is a big hunk of plastic i have had for as long as I've been playing(10+ years), and it's always amazed me with it's decent, sometimes great results coming from a few thin openings in it's front lip. I place it about ten feet in front of the drums(which are in the middle of an approx. 20x12 room facing the smaller wall) putting it into a attached tiled bathroom. I use this for capturing some fullness and reverb and putting enough distance and air between the drums and the boombox so i get a balance between all the pieces of the kit. The space lets my 24" kick boom, the toms ring, hears the snare ghost notes, and gets a full cymbal wash.

I then mic the boombox playback into my digital 8-track with an AKG mic (not sure what model, similiar to a Shure SM57 in price) with pretty good results, not great quality or full frequency but these are just demos anyways. What's important is the 'sound' and 'personality' of the drums and my playing is captured how i want it. There's something about that cassette sound, really thick toned and dynamic, if not always a bit muddy, that still translates throught a mic into digital form. I copy the performance onto several tracks and end up mixing them across the stereo spectrum to fit the situation and make the sound fuller, like i actually had a few mics rolling.

Then i do some simple editing on the drum tracks to lengthen or repeat certain sections and just wrote all the guitar/bass/keys over that. I mic all the amps and keys with the same AKG mic, nothing direct-in. I'm using the simple TASCAM DP-01 which resembles a basic analog 8-track which suits me fine (i like all the hands-on knob turning and old fashioned live mixing). I wrote, recorded and mixed each composition usually in just an hour or three, hoping to keep that spontaneity and live, organic feel that I think a live band performing this kind of music would have. I'm hoping these recordings show a good mix of what i can do, and have an atmosphere and consistency to them. Right now, do to my limited budget and lack of a consistent recording space, this process suits me just fine. I really like the challenge of working in a simple way with constrictions that make the process the much more rewarding since I've been really happy with the results. I hope others can find they don't need anything state of the art, of even a computer to record onto to get a decent track. Just get the feel and energy of your music, even if the recording isn't radio ready quality. Thanks for listening.

gilesw06

04-04-2007, 01:57 PM

GRUNTERSDAD

04-15-2007, 01:52 AM

I just started recording my drums, and I am using two Marshall MXL 933 condenser mics overhead about three feet apart. They are connected to an M-Audio PreUSB pre amp and interface that is connected to my Mac. I am using GarageBand software to record and edit. The sound files I have converted to MP3's but I can't upload them to this site for some reason. They are under the allowable size limits for the site, but after I click upload, all I get is "uploading" forever and ever. Any help would be appreciated.

Problem solved...thanks for all of your responses, LOL..

Berberman

04-25-2007, 11:35 AM

OK dunno if this was posted already, but I use a technique called the Recorderman's technique, with two MXL 603s for OH, an SM57 or 58 for snare, and a BETA 52 for kick.

I found a nice video explaining the whole setup:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=davidkakon

Skynman

04-25-2007, 11:55 AM

Slieght sorry I have been busy lately now as for what you said you have 4 mic's and a 4 channel mixer I think you are trying to push too much from only 2 mic's to handle the rest of your set up! If you want a real clean sound you are going to have to invest in or borrow from somebody a mixer and mic's that will allow you to put a mic on every drum and in between every cymbal at least to get a clean recording! ps also you will need to record some drums by themselves to set the mix in recording by up or down volume and placement of the mic's on the cymbal's! There is a possibility you can try but make a seperate recording for protection of the master try recording some tracks one player at a time! A lot of pro's do this! Instead of trying to get it all in one shot a track at a time

joshuavt

04-27-2007, 08:50 PM

Hey everyone. I'm looking for some suggestions for preamps, your favorite and the prices. Anyone?

d-roc

04-29-2007, 05:19 AM

Hello all.

I have read through this thread almost in its entirety. Sorry If Ive missed something but I thought Id ask anyway.

My band are recording their first EP in a professional studio at the end of this month. After years of trial and error, I feel I am able to tune my kit well, and I will be changing all the heads for new ones for recording.

However, I rarely change the resonant heads on my toms (I regularly change the snare reso though). Really, this is only because its extra expense. at the moment, I have the stock Mapex single ply reso heads and 2 ply Aquarian heads on top. Would it make a huge ammount of difference to my sound (and therefore recording quality), if I changed the reso heads to aquarian ones as well?

thanks in advance.

I think so because fresh heads always have more resonance and will hold pitch longer than old, stretched out, used up heads. I know you aren't hitting the bottoms of your drums, but several factors play into how your heads hold up including weather, hot or cold room temperatures, uneven tuning, and over tightening. Even though it may be expensive to replace them for regular gigs, it will be worth it to buy new heads for this recording. You are going to want the best sound you can get. I don't think it will matter what brand name as long as you use a single-ply head. I'm sure Aquarian makes them as well.

d-roc

04-29-2007, 05:41 AM

Have a question. I'm having alot of trouble getting a defined attack out of my toms, but don't want to resort to muffling as I like a very deep, full sound with lots of resonance. Any micing and eq techniques I could use to achieve this?

It sounds like head choice to me. What kind of heads are you using? I use Remo Coated Emperors for my batter and Remo Clear Ambassadors for the resonant side and no muffling whatsoever. I have found these to give me depth and control, while still giving me a lot of resonance. Tuning may be a factor. You could try bringing the resonant head up a little bit in tension so it makes the batter head produce more of an attack. With a thicker ply head for the batter it gives me more attack and control, but still a very deep sound. Compression also fattens the drum sound, so this could also help or turn it to mud.

gretsch223

06-12-2007, 02:23 AM

This may have been asked before....Not sure though....

I am aware that one in the bass drum, 2 over, are the standard mic setup....But, for jazz is this different??

I have a 18 kick, 12 & 14 tom (one up one down), two rides on my right, and hats. I know this isn't putting a great picture in your mind but, all advice is greatly appreciated.

Thrash Drummer

06-16-2007, 07:30 PM

parser

06-16-2007, 08:52 PM

When recording, is it a good idea to have everything set to the middle of the clip meter, then mix it after recording? (Assuming every drum has its own mic and 2 overheads) I know the eqs should be left alone until after the recording.

Im using cubase and I'm confused about a lot of it..I don't know how to use effects yet or midi.

I do my tracking in Cubase. I usually set the recording levels for each instrument to top out at just below the zero mark. That seems to get a good solid signal without clipping or being too thin. Then after all recording, I will mix everything down starting with the kick, add the snare, then overheads, then toms.

Feel free to ask any more questions regarding Cubase, and have fun and post yer results!

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-16-2007, 11:19 PM

parser

06-17-2007, 12:11 AM

I forget the actual db, but I know I don't max it out when recording. However, you need to have the gain up enough to not have a lot of noise if you boost it later. If you record everything really hot, then the mix will clip a lot easier when all the sound waves start to add together. I want to say -6db, but I can't swear on it.

Yeah, the faders go from off to 0db, then up to +6. I'm recording at about -.5 from 0, so I think we're talking about the same levels - seems to work pretty good.

skemthestray

06-19-2007, 11:37 PM

Hey I am just wondering If anyone could explain to me if there are any methods / effects units u can use to get effects on an electronic kit or acoustic, Any info is Valued!!!!!!!!!

Thrash Drummer

06-20-2007, 04:00 AM

You can EQ stuff and add effects with many programs such as cubase sonar pro tools etc.

And I have a question of my own. Is it reasonable to put the bass drum mic behind the bass drum (batter head) to get a strong attack out of it? How do they get that clickish wet sound in the studio (Chimaira, As Blood Runs Black, Shadows Fall, Lamb of God). Im not using click pads, they always fall off.

JIM_fear

06-20-2007, 04:13 AM

Most of them use triggers to get that sound if they don't use a click pad like you mentioned.

JIM_fear

06-20-2007, 04:21 AM

If you don't have triggers you can use a FIR plug-in for your recording software which allows you to focus in on the frequency of the kick drum and replace it with a sample of another kick drum that may have the sound you're looking for. You can also do this with snares, toms, etc. It takes a little bit a time to key in to the correct frequency and line it up with the track but it does work well and you won't have the possibility of false triggering.

I know Reaper has this plug-in available for their software and it's free.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-20-2007, 05:41 AM

And I have a question of my own. Is it reasonable to put the bass drum mic behind the bass drum (batter head) to get a strong attack out of it?

Ya, you can put a mic on the batter side of the kick. Some people use a mic on the batter side and one in front, blending the sound of the two the get the desired tone. If you just have one mic, you can put it inside the kick. The closer to the batter head the more attack, while moving back toward the reso will give more thump and low end. Using a wood or plastic beater helps too with the attack.

Thrash Drummer

06-21-2007, 03:15 AM

Ok thanks, when I get my studio working I'll try that.

I have a Major Problem.
I first purchased a firepod only to find that it scrambled track inputs, cloned random tracks and threw them where it liked, and recorded some tracks "silently", where I could not play the track and hear it.
I returned the firepod and got another one today. This one records silently on inputs 4,5,6, and 8. Im using cubase. I set the driver to Presonus and set the inputs 1-8 and connected the firepod, nothing seems wrong. Does anyone have a clue why the Firepod is acting so strangely? Could it be my computer? A bad shipment of firepods?

JIM_fear

06-21-2007, 05:46 AM

That's sounds like a problem with your firepod. The preamps could be faulty. I would send back the firepod again and get a new one to see if that's the problem. It could be a problem with the transfer. Are you using two firewire ports to make the connection? You may run into some latency problems with just one.

The first problem you had sounds like a possible software problem. Did they give you a new copy of Cubase when you returned the Firepod?

Thrash Drummer

06-21-2007, 06:06 AM

I installed cubase LE onto my parents computer (same disc from the first firepod) and it let me record all 7 tracks at once (normally you would have to merge tracks on LE), so I got lucky. I also tried recording everything on my parents computer and it seems to be good so far. No input switching, silent tracks, other stupid errors.. I think the problem was the sound card on the other computer, my parents computer has a good card. They don't even know how to turn on the speakers, I might just do a swap... It's 11 PM right now and much to late to test without disturbing the neighborhood, I'll check tommorow to see if everything works. I'm using one firewire because I only have one, but I dont notice latency problems.

If everything works out and I can play decently with my broken hand, I'll post some stuff up tommorow. The mics sound great!

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-21-2007, 07:04 AM

If you are using the Firepod with another sound card installed, there may be conflicts. The Firepod acts as a 'sound card'. You may need to disable the drivers of the other installed sound card in order for the Firepod to work correctly. Since you had the problem with two different Firepods, I would say it would be a big coincidence they were both faulty. I think it is either a driver conflict or maybe the options in your recording program aren't set right.

Thrash Drummer

06-21-2007, 07:21 PM

How do you disable the audio driver?

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-22-2007, 01:46 AM

How do you disable the audio driver?

If this doesn't correct the issue, my guess would be the options in your audio software are not set up correctly (which you should double check first), or perhaps you didn't install the drivers to the Firepod correctly. I don't use Cubase so I can't really help there.

To disable the other audio driver, you have to pull up the device manager in the control panel. In the device manager, expand the 'Sound, video, and game controllers' branch. That will list all the drivers installed that are used for audio. Figure out which ones are for the installed sound card, right click, and select disable. This should prevent any driver conflicts. It's possible to have more than one audio interface installed but sometimes they fight for dominance which leads to conflicts. If this doesn't correct the problem, you are not experiencing a driver conflict issue. You can always re-enable the driver by using the same method above.

Unless you have a good reason to keep a sound card installed with your Firepod, I would suggest pulling the old sound card out of the PC completely and uninstalling its drivers. I use the Firebox (smaller version of the pod), and have no other sound card installed. With the Firepod, you don't need a sound card. It does the same thing as a sound card only it uses a firewire interface instead of PCI. So basically, regardless of what other sound card you have installed on each PC, that shouldn't matter... because you should be using the Firepod as your main audio driver and i/o.

CASP3Rdrummer

06-25-2007, 03:40 AM

well i didnt wanted to start new thread because everyon would told me to use search button so i'll tell my question here. im planing to borrow one mic from a friend, i dont know what mic it is but its not so bad for drum recording (i guess it is shure sm57 ) . my drums are in a "garage" , a small room 3x4 aproximatly. the recording i want to do is only with 1 mic so i was wandering if its possible and also where should i put the mic. also i dont have any idea about where am i gonna connect that mic. to a console ? to my pc ?? if i connect it to a pc do i need some program ?? well i need loads of information so thanks i forward for your time .

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-25-2007, 04:06 AM

[QUOTE=CASP3Rdrummer;326538im planing to borrow one mic from a friend, i dont know what mic it is but its not so bad for drum recording (i guess it is shure sm57 ) . my drums are in a "garage" , a small room 3x4 aproximatly. the recording i want to do is only with 1 mic so i was wandering if its possible and also where should i put the mic. also i dont have any idea about where am i gonna connect that mic. to a console ? to my pc ?? if i connect it to a pc do i need some program ?? well i need loads of information so thanks i forward for your time .[/QUOTE]

My favorite spot for a single mic would be a few feet out in front of the kit, just a little higher than the top of the bass drum. You will probably need a preamp for the mic, an audio interface for your PC, and of course recording software. Details on all of that can already be found in this thread.

CASP3Rdrummer

06-25-2007, 05:53 PM

My favorite spot for a single mic would be a few feet out in front of the kit, just a little higher than the top of the bass drum. You will probably need a preamp for the mic, an audio interface for your PC, and of course recording software. Details on all of that can already be found in this thread.

damn...must start reading those 13 pages :(

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

06-25-2007, 10:14 PM

damn...must start reading those 13 pages :(

It may seem like a lot, but there is a lot of good info in this thread. It saves us from having to retype the same answers every time someone asks these questions.

Also check out the Tape Op (http://www.tapeop.com) forum.

Thrash Drummer

07-02-2007, 06:46 PM

I'm gonna try the FIR plug in, but I'm just curious in case it doesn't work: I have midi (vst instruments) instruments in cubase, can I attach a trigger to my firepod and have it trigger the sounds in cubase?

soundlab1

07-12-2007, 01:13 PM

I want to sample various audio clips from my vdrums. I use my V-Drums as a percussion rack next to my acoustic kit with a funk act I'm in. I don't want to have to use a computer. I have a TD 8, a midi controller keyboard and a Novation X-Station. I also have Cubase SX3 and a Mac. But again, I don't want to use a computer do sample horns, etc for stage performances unless I absolutely have to. Can anybody lead me to some tips?

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

07-12-2007, 02:33 PM

Do you have a sampler?

How about one of the Boss loop pedals?

Halidman

07-15-2007, 07:21 PM

bago

07-20-2007, 01:53 PM

Hey, anybody know what sort of mic to use for a mono recording of a rock drum kit in a small ish room, like 3 meters by 8? have an mbox and pc, just need to know what mic to buy...preferbly under 200.....i should know what one, but my mind is blank.... :P

Try a pzm mic, we use two at rehersals in a mini disc you can here results here its all live and improvised
http://www.myspace.com/pjrss

Steady Freddy

07-21-2007, 12:05 AM

I found a neat little adapter today at Sam Ash to change the phase on XLR cables. It's made by Hosa. The part number is GXX-195. The Sam Ash SKU number is HGXX-195XX.

It plugs into the XLR cable and costs $10.50.

Thought it might be helpful for some of you guys.

JIM_fear

07-21-2007, 05:53 AM

Try a pzm mic, we use two at rehersals in a mini disc you can here results here its all live and improvised
http://www.myspace.com/pjrss

What brand/model pzm did you use? Crown? Did you record in a acoustically treated room? You used two pzm mics for the whole band, correct? It sounds really good for just two room mics. Has a nice vintage sound to it.

bago

07-21-2007, 06:11 PM

What brand/model pzm did you use? Crown? Did you record in a acoustically treated room? You used two pzm mics for the whole band, correct? It sounds really good for just two room mics. Has a nice vintage sound to it.

The pzm we use are old tandy ones made by realistic , they were about £20 each. we just place them in the middle of the practice room into mini disc. then put into cubase and add eq,comp,and a bit of reverb to the whole track. this is a drum loop just with pzm in bedroom

JIM_fear

07-22-2007, 01:08 AM

Sounds good. I may have to try that.

dom

08-10-2007, 05:03 PM

so i ordered this little bit ago what else will i need to be ready to record

sio_13

08-14-2007, 01:47 AM

so i ordered this little bit ago what else will i need to be ready to record

How about some mics, cables, headphones, blank cds... you could prolly find a good mic package online somewhere, like www.sweetwater.com it might save you some cash, but don't buy anything too cheap. When it comes to recording, the main rule that you have to follow is "crap in, crap out", which means if your mics sound like a** then so will your recordings, regardless of how good you instruments are.

dom

08-21-2007, 02:06 AM

How about some mics, cables, headphones, blank cds... you could prolly find a good mic package online somewhere, like www.sweetwater.com it might save you some cash, but don't buy anything too cheap. When it comes to recording, the main rule that you have to follow is "crap in, crap out", which means if your mics sound like a** then so will your recordings, regardless of how good you instruments are.

i got it about a week ago and figured most of it out. I am going to get another mixer that i can plug mics right into then run that mixer into the tascam.

Can someone please tell me some mics that wont break the bank and still sound some what good? OR do i have to throw down a lot more cash to record my crappy playing?

Wavelength

08-21-2007, 03:29 AM

Shure Beta 52 for kick, Shure SM 57 for snare, AKG C1000 for an overhead. Those three should get you started well and won't need to be replaced with better mics if you need to expand your microphone collection.

zildjiandrummer1

08-24-2007, 05:22 AM

I have only 3 mics, but I have a double bass 7 piece set with 2 racks and 2 floors, not to mention a bunch of cymbals. Where should I place my mics in order to get the bass drums loud but at the same time get a round sound with all instruments clearly being heard??

fourstringdrums

08-24-2007, 05:30 AM

I just bought a Zoom H4 which has 2 onboard condenser mics.

www.handidrummed.com/zoomh4test.mp3

Recorded with all the default settings, in wav format at 96hz that I formatted to Mp3 128. The H4 is positioned about 2 feet in front of the drums on a camera tripod about 5 feet in the air.

stickers

08-27-2007, 05:50 PM

I would shy away from the akg c1000. That mic gets dissed all over the place in recording forums.

I'd recommend a pair Oktava 012s or Shure sm81s for stereo overheads. Both these mics work well on other applications especially acoustic guitar.

If you can't swing the cash for a pair of Small Diaphragm Condensers like I listed above, then maybe a single large diaphragm condenser mic like the shure ksm 32. Then you could use it on vocals too. Just a thought.

The beta52 and the sm57 are solid recommendations for kick and snare respectively.

And eventually, Sennheiser 421s or Audix D2 would make fine mic choices for toms .

stickers

08-27-2007, 06:01 PM

Here's a list of mics that I always seem to hear people talking or read online posts about for drum miking applications:

a pair AKG c414 for overheads.
sennheiser 421 for toms.
shure sm81 for hi hat
shure sm57s for snare, top and bottom
akg D112 kick drum
yamaha sub kick or Neumann u47 fet outside kick

anson89

09-30-2007, 11:20 PM

Berberman

10-01-2007, 01:24 AM

so i have a macbook pro and i want the simplest hardware for recording drums but getting a decent sound

was wondering if it's possible to plug everything onto one mixer and record through USB or firewire.

You will need a sound interface to transform the analog signal coming in to a digital signal that your computer can understand.

First see how many mics you will have going in, then pick the right sound interface for your needs.

anson89

10-02-2007, 09:03 AM

hm
say i have 7 mics
what do u recommend?

Berberman

10-02-2007, 10:55 AM

hm
say i have 7 mics
what do u recommend?

Try this:
http://presonus.com/firestudio.html

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-02-2007, 04:10 PM

Try this:
http://presonus.com/firestudio.html

That looks pretty cool. If you want to save a couple hundred dollars, you can get the Firepod. I'm not sure of the exact differences, but it was the predecessor to the Firestudio. It also has 8 i/os. In fact, I'm seriously considering picking up a Firepod next year because the price has dropped so much on them since the Firestudio came out. They are basically selling for what I paid for my Firebox- which is the smaller version.

Archie Gamble-Drummer

10-13-2007, 03:27 AM

Two words:

ROOM MICS

JasonW

10-16-2007, 06:15 PM

hm
say i have 7 mics
what do u recommend?

If you have 8 mics or less, take a look at RME FireFace 400. It's the best most reliable firewire interface out there.

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_fireface_400.php
It's a little pricey but it's better than Presonus, M-Audio, etc, etc.

You will also need a mixer with 8 mic preamps. So the signal chain would look like:

mics --> mixer --> RME FireFace400 --> computer

anson89

10-20-2007, 06:15 PM

so i finally come down to either the Firepod/FP10 and the Firestudio.
and the audix fusion mics, i need some comments on these too :)

But here's the problem. As a starter/beginner on recording, and a drummer for 4 years, do I need the power of the Firestudio? I understand it's good and all, but it's so much more expensive than the Firepod. All I need to do is record my drums/other instruments with some decent sound quality, prolly throw in a couple of effects in it and stuff.

My other question is, I wanna record my whole band, but I only have 8 mic inputs on the Firestuide or Firepod, whichever, and my drumset uses 8 mics. Is it possible to record the drums first, and then the other instruments later? So I can "layer" it later and combining it making it a full band?

Berberman

10-20-2007, 08:30 PM

so i finally come down to either the Firepod/FP10 and the Firestudio.
and the audix fusion mics, i need some comments on these too :)

Personally I don't like those low budget drum mic packs. They're low quality and for a little more you can get better quality mics. I looked at the audix fusion mics but ended up going with a shure beta 52 for kick, mxl 991 (also known as mxl 603s) for condenser overhead mics, and a bunch of sm57s for toms and snare (excelent sound on snare btw).
Again, read reviews before you buy the audix. A lot of users love them, but a lot more complain about them.

But here's the problem. As a starter/beginner on recording, and a drummer for 4 years, do I need the power of the Firestudio? I understand it's good and all, but it's so much more expensive than the Firepod. All I need to do is record my drums/other instruments with some decent sound quality, prolly throw in a couple of effects in it and stuff.

I'd go with the firepod and get better mics than audix with the money left. Sometimes there is just no need for the latest toy in the rack when the previous one does the job. Just my take on it.

My other question is, I wanna record my whole band, but I only have 8 mic inputs on the Firestuide or Firepod, whichever, and my drumset uses 8 mics. Is it possible to record the drums first, and then the other instruments later? So I can "layer" it later and combining it making it a full band?

If you're starting out in home recording and as i understand it you're not looking for a real pro sound, there's no need going with 8 mics. Remember more mics means more noise, and so more to deal with when mixing. You will also run into phasing issues, which means that some frequencies picked up on diffrent mics will cancel each other out if not positioned right and if not eq'ed right. I would advise you to go with Kick, good quality OHs and snare, and you'll find it's more than enough to get a good sound given you find an optimal position for them. You will always be able to add more mics later if needed.

And yes you can 'layer' other instruments later, using a sequencer.

Hope that helps.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

10-21-2007, 02:01 AM

If you have 8 mics or less, take a look at RME FireFace 400. It's the best most reliable firewire interface out there. You will also need a mixer with 8 mic preamps.

The Presonus stuff is reliable. I've been using the Firebox for a couple of years now with no problems. I'm looking to upgrade to the Firepod next year.

The RME FireFace stuff looks pretty nice. They've been getting pretty good reviews over at TapeOp. I'm not sure how it compares to the new Firestudio though. However, if you're going to get something nicer like that, I think using the pres on a mixer will kind of defeat the purpose using higher grade A/D converters unless you're getting a real nice console. The RME units come with a few pres already, so instead of buying a budget mixer (which you really don't need for tracking) you can get a couple of nice dedicated pres.

so i finally come down to either the Firepod/FP10 and the Firestudio.

I had this question recently answered for me by someone who had been using a Firepod, and recently upgraded to the Firestudio for his commercial studio. He told me the A/D converters in the FS were better. There is also less latency with the FS when creating multiple headphone mixes. The FS also allows for ADAT inputs.

Personally, I think the Firepod will be perfect for what you are doing.

My other question is, I wanna record my whole band, but I only have 8 mic inputs on the Firestuide or Firepod, whichever, and my drumset uses 8 mics. Is it possible to record the drums first, and then the other instruments later? So I can "layer" it later and combining it making it a full band?

Yes, it is very easy to record one instrument at a time and build the songs in layers. This is how I record all of my solo stuff. You can do that with any audio interface, assuming you are using a multi-track audio program (Sonar, Protools, Reaper, etc).

I would also suggest that you try mic'ing your drums with a few mics to begin with, unless you are already familiar with using several. It will make the learning curve much easier.

TopCat

11-10-2007, 08:03 PM

Hi folks, brief query

I'm new at this recording business, i threw myself in the deep end recently and decided to just go with it and learn.

I'm recording with a firepod, 2 NT5's, Audix D6, an SM57 and Cubase SX3.

Anyway, my problem is that i'm having trouble controlling the bleed between my Bass drum and Snare mics. I know some people embrace the bleed in order to achieve a 'real' sound but for the music i'm recording, i really need to beef up the snare and kick. I've tried loads of different mic positions, wrapping the bassdrum in a duvet, re-tuning and so on.

I'm not trying to achieve complete isolation (obviously) but when it comes to gating the tracks, it's a pain because the bass is being picked up as much as the snare is and vice versa, so it gates the bass/snare drum hit on the snare/bass mic too.

I'm sorry it's a real amateur question, but if anyone can help it would be really appreciated.
Cheers
Tom

EDIT: On second thought, it's more than likely just a positioning problem, right?

Wavelength

11-10-2007, 08:32 PM

I'm recording with a firepod, 2 NT5's, Audix D6, an SM57 and Cubase SX3.

Anyway, my problem is that i'm having trouble controlling the bleed between my Bass drum and Snare mics. I know some people embrace the bleed in order to achieve a 'real' sound but for the music i'm recording, i really need to beef up the snare and kick. I've tried loads of different mic positions, wrapping the bassdrum in a duvet, re-tuning and so on.

I assume you're using the NTs for overheads, the D6 for the kick and the SM57 for the snare. Since the overheads are already picking up the snare's batter head from the top, you should try miking the snare's resonant head from under the snare. That way you'll get more bite and crispness from the snares and the mic will be pointing further away from the kick drum, diminishing bleed from the kick to the snare mic.

TopCat

11-10-2007, 08:57 PM

I assume you're using the NTs for overheads, the D6 for the kick and the SM57 for the snare. Since the overheads are already picking up the snare's batter head from the top, you should try miking the snare's resonant head from under the snare. That way you'll get more bite and crispness from the snares and the mic will be pointing further away from the kick drum, diminishing bleed from the kick to the snare mic.

Cheers Wavelength, I'll be trying that first thing tomorrow.

Mediocrefunkybeat

11-10-2007, 09:22 PM

If all else fails, you'll be forced to put a gate on them both. I would suggest avoiding this if it's possible, but sometimes it isn't. High threshold with an immediate attack and a medium release would probably do the job.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

11-11-2007, 05:38 AM

Anyway, my problem is that i'm having trouble controlling the bleed between my Bass drum and Snare mics.

How are the kick and snare mics positioned currently? Or more importantly, what have you tried? I'm surprised you are getting equal volumes of both parts of the kit in each mic. When you are doing your sound check, are you checking one mic at a time, or just have them all up? I like to work on one thing at a time, then check everything together to check relationships.

I did some recording today with my kit and while there was a tiny bit of bleed between the kick and snare, it was nothing to worry about at all. I had an AKG D112 on my kick a couple inches away from the port hole, aimed at the beater. I had an SM58 on the snare, halfway between the rack tom and hats, with the ball grill three inches above the hoop, pointing towards the center of the head.

While we were running the guitar direct for today's recording, we did have the amp going so we both could hear and it was pointed nearly directly at my kit (less than five feet away), and even that didn't bleed too bad... very minimal and really only showed up in the OH (yet still very quiet).

Are you compressing the kick and snare tracks? Are you using the gate prior to the compressor? If you happen to be compressing before gating, you could be bringing up the volume of the sound being bled on to the track. Can you put a high pass filter (low-cut) on your snare mic, or even in the mix via plug-in? Today I set the LC at around 200Hz on my preamp for the snare mic (this helps to keep the kick out). Are you recording in a small highly reflective room? If so, you may need to set up some things to diffuse or absorb the sound waves bouncing around. We had some problems with the guitar amp causing the snares to vibrate really loud, and I put a big square pillow between my hat stand and the kick. It worked really well and had no more sympathetic vibration from the amp.

I'm also surprised building a tunnel over your kick with a heavy blanket didn't help to isolate that mic. Do you have a porthole that will let you place the mic a few inches inside the kick? Please don't think that I think you're stupid for asking this, but I just have to to be sure, but you do have the mics routed to the correct (and independent) tracks in the software right? I'm wondering of the possibility of you having each mic going to the same track, on two tracks.

Is there any way you'd be willing to post some sound clips; solo the kick, then the snare, then let them both play together. Any possibility to get some pics of the mic setup? I'm just really curious. Sorry for the long ramble. I wish I was there for some hands on.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

11-11-2007, 05:47 AM

On a separate note and why I had originally visited this thread again...

I made a great upgrade to my PC today to help reduce ambient noise and best of all it was fairly cheap to do. Usually when I'm in my music room it sounds like there is a 747 flying around because of my case fan. I don't know how I recorded so much in this room without noticing it until recently, but it has really annoyed me over the last couple of months at least. I bought a low noise fan rated at 9dB. I also bought rubber mounting screws to help isolate it from the case. The manufacturer claims the rubber screws can reduce up to 7dB of any case fan. Ideally, my new case fan is only putting out 2dB of noise right now.

Let me tell you... it is so quiet in here now I don't know what to do. I can hear my thoughts. I can't wait to record some vocals or acoustic guitar. With shipping, the fan and the screws only cost about $30. My main concern would be that a low noise, lower RPM fan would let my case get too hot... but actually, it's a couple degrees C cooler than it was with the old fan! Go figure. Great discovery for me. I highly suggest making this swap for anyone recording in the same room as their PC.

TopCat

11-12-2007, 12:40 PM

How are the kick and snare mics positioned currently? Or more importantly, what have you tried? I'm surprised you are getting equal volumes of both parts of the kit in each mic. When you are doing your sound check, are you checking one mic at a time, or just have them all up? I like to work on one thing at a time, then check everything together to check relationships.

I did some recording today with my kit and while there was a tiny bit of bleed between the kick and snare, it was nothing to worry about at all. I had an AKG D112 on my kick a couple inches away from the port hole, aimed at the beater. I had an SM58 on the snare, halfway between the rack tom and hats, with the ball grill three inches above the hoop, pointing towards the center of the head.

While we were running the guitar direct for today's recording, we did have the amp going so we both could hear and it was pointed nearly directly at my kit (less than five feet away), and even that didn't bleed too bad... very minimal and really only showed up in the OH (yet still very quiet).

Are you compressing the kick and snare tracks? Are you using the gate prior to the compressor? If you happen to be compressing before gating, you could be bringing up the volume of the sound being bled on to the track. Can you put a high pass filter (low-cut) on your snare mic, or even in the mix via plug-in? Today I set the LC at around 200Hz on my preamp for the snare mic (this helps to keep the kick out). Are you recording in a small highly reflective room? If so, you may need to set up some things to diffuse or absorb the sound waves bouncing around. We had some problems with the guitar amp causing the snares to vibrate really loud, and I put a big square pillow between my hat stand and the kick. It worked really well and had no more sympathetic vibration from the amp.

I'm also surprised building a tunnel over your kick with a heavy blanket didn't help to isolate that mic. Do you have a porthole that will let you place the mic a few inches inside the kick? Please don't think that I think you're stupid for asking this, but I just have to to be sure, but you do have the mics routed to the correct (and independent) tracks in the software right? I'm wondering of the possibility of you having each mic going to the same track, on two tracks.

Is there any way you'd be willing to post some sound clips; solo the kick, then the snare, then let them both play together. Any possibility to get some pics of the mic setup? I'm just really curious. Sorry for the long ramble. I wish I was there for some hands on.

Thanks for that Reply sleepy, as for my mic positions, the SM57 is at about 30 degrees between the tom and hats, pointed at the center of the snare. Audix reccomends that you fully submerge the D6 (pointing at the beater) which could be my problem. I tried further back in the drum, closer to the beater and just poking through the port. Whilst the latter did have less bleed the bass drum sound captured wasn't up to much.

I'm gating before compression, but i'll try that high pass filter today, as well as wavelength's suggestion. Also, yeah, the mics are correctly routed.

I'll be happy to post some pictures/soundclips, it'll be easier then. Thanks alot.

SLEEPY BRiGHT EYEZ

11-14-2007, 04:36 AM

Can we get this thread sticky again?

theflamingredone

08-05-2009, 05:32 PM

Berberman

08-05-2009, 05:52 PM

Hi guys,
I'm looking for some advice on how best to mic up my kit and I figured here would be the best place to look.
My kit-space is a fairly large room (my bedroom) its an attic so its wood floors w/ brick/wood walls, timber roof.

I've built myself a carpeted cubicle (mdf with egg carton walls) to try to deplete too many vibrations flying off everywhere. it completely surrounds my kit.
What would be the best microphones to buy and is there any way i can patch them through to my computer for recording? if so, what do i need?

i have about AU$400 to spend on microphones. Support would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

I like to use Recorderman's method to mic my kit and I recommend it. My kit sounds great when I record in my basement. Check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

As for microphones, you can spend a lot of money to get the "best" ones, or settle for cheaper mics that would sound great and make any expensive mic blush. Also you can get a few drum mic kits in a nice package (like the one by audix etc), but the truth is they sound like crap. They're just cheap sounding mics bundled in a nice little case.

This is what I use and what I recommend:
Shure Beta 52 for the bass drum
Two MXL 991's for condensers - Don't go crazy about getting a matched pair, you will not hear the difference
And the good old Shure SM57 for snare and toms.

This will already get you a very nice sounding drum kit.

If you want to go fancy on the mics, and keep in mind the more mics you have the more mixing you will have to do and the more phasing problems you might run into, you can get another condenser mic for your hi-hat, and also mic you snare from below for more control. It's all about experimenting at that point...