Bass drum pedal help?

[Thecowslayer]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone has some advice as to my bass drum playing. I can never seem to get very consistent doubles on my bass drum pedal. I have the DW 7000 double bass pedal, but I'm only using the single pedal for now, as I want to make sure I'm good with it, before I move on to double bass. I have tried other pedals, and I tend to do much better on other pedals than the one I have. I'm not sure if it's because of the way I have my pedal set up, or if the pedals I have tried were just better than mine. I have started to practice doubles by playing 2 16th notes on the pedal, then 2 16th notes with my right or left hand, and continuing to do that, but I can never get the speed to go very high. Also, my height might have something to do with it, I'm around 6'3", 6'4" and I've heard that if you are tall, it's better to sit back away from the kit. I always tend to sit really close to the kit though, because I find it much more comfortable than sitting farther away. Could my problem be that I just haven't practiced enough with doubles yet?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Could my problem be that I just haven't practiced enough with doubles yet?

Who knows? You haven't told us how long you've been playing, how long you've been working on your doubles, how much time you spend working on them and how you have your pedals set up. More info will help. :-)

[Bo Eder]

Actually, it would be even more helpful if you posted a video of your pedal issues and then maybe the solution would be obvious? It could just be a case of trying to run before you walk too, but there's no way to tell that, either.

[Thecowslayer]

Who knows? You haven't told us how long you've been playing, how long you've been working on your doubles, how much time you spend working on them and how you have your pedals set up. More info will help. :-)

Oh, sorry about that, I always forget obvious things like that.....
I've been playing for around 2 years now, as for working on the doubles, I haven't been practicing with the exercise I said for very long, but I have been playing doubles for a long time now, just not quickly. As to how I have them set up, I'm not sure how to explain it. If you meant how tight/loose the pedals are, they are pretty tight, and the beater itself is far away from the drum head. I could take a picture if you would like, but I can't do a video now, cause it's late and I would wake up my brother.
Edit: I also forgot to mention that I play heel up.

[Thecowslayer]

Okay, I finally got a video of me playing, my timing is pretty messed up, but I'm trying to find out if there is something wrong with my technique, so I can fix that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CER3kupzEqo&feature=channel_video_title

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

That helps a bunch mate.

Your foot looks very crowded on the pedal. There is not a lot of movement of the beater between the head and your shin. You appear to be very cramped in. Perhaps try adjusting your seating and foot positions. Your whole set up looks exceptionally crowded to me, which may be limiting your movements.

I'd try a few different things like, moving your foot back down the footboard a little bit and aim to pull the seat back a little further so as to eliminate "sitting on top" of the pedal. I think experimenting with your position will aid in freeing up your movements, creating a little more space for yourself and will allow your leg/ankle/foot movements to be a lot more fluent.

[Thecowslayer]

Thanks for the advice, I will try what you suggested as soon as I can. I do tend to sit really close to the drums, I'm overly paranoid about not actually being able to reach them, so that might be what's messing me up.

[Arky]

There's absolutely no way I could play fast double bass without the seating position, throne height and pedal distance being at least comfy if not perfect. I would readjust those things until I feel really good and ONLY THEN get into practicing/playing. So what you even tried is an achievement ;-)

I'd say except you're playing the slide technique your heel should never be further up the pedal than hovering over the heel part of the footplate. Or the other way round, your forefoot (the part which actually is pressing onto the pedal plate) should be about 2/3rd up the pedal plate at best, or further back.

I think it doesn't make much sense to practice to a click like you did in that video - your timing sucks, sorry (=the truth -> let's correct it!).

Slow down!! You don't need a click in the beginning, focus on control and feel. To develop this, practice AS SLOWLY AS NECESSARY to really FEEL what your feet are doing (or your right foot, if single pedal setup). When you're ready to use a click, start slowly, at a range you have full control. Build from there. Why do you start to play 2 consecutive notes? That's too advanced for now. And try developing a feel for dynamics, you should learn how to play with full power (the beater coming back almost to your foot) as one extreme and with reduced power towards your fastest speed (this comes naturally - the faster the playing, the less powerful the strokes/the less beater distance to the bass drum head, as a rule).

As to reaching every drum element: With some experimenting you should be able to find a (at least nearly) perfect position. Start with the throne, then the pedal(s), then bass drum, snare etc. The snare and toms are usually set up to hit the heads straight in the middle WITHOUT leaning in some directions (except turning either the hands or the upper body towards e.g. the floor tom(s), but even then the sticks should hit them exactly in the middle of the heads).

[Thecowslayer]

Okay, I have taken both of your advice, I have tried adjusting my seat, and I'm sitting so that now my right leg is at a 90 degree angle. I also am making the effort to keep my foot farther back on the pedal, instead of closer to the top of it. Here's another video of me playing after moving the seat, I'm only doing quarter notes this time, and I'm alternating between heel up, and heel down playing, my heel down playing is pretty terrible though. Also, I switched bass drum pedals, I'm using the first one I got, that I guess came with the original set. I got it off of craigslist, with my kit. I've never really liked the DW 7000 pedal that much, I tried adjusting it today, but I still haven't been able to get it to feel like I want it to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTGqBVzl3iQ

[Arky]

Looks a bit better now. For heel down the position is ok, but I'd position the foot even more towards the pedal plate butt. The beater should come way farther back for more power, just lift your foot higher when releasing. You should really focus on a strong kick, go even slower than in the video. You need _full control_!

The 90 degree thigh position is the recommended minimum (some prefer it lower though, but that is likely to cause back problems), you should try sitting even higher.

You could try lighter footwear, or (at least for comparison/experimenting) play barefoot. This should give you a completely different and fresh feel and might work better than you imagine. I prefer playing barefoot (with socks), just got used to it from the very beginning. Really, this can make a big difference.

[Thecowslayer]

Okay, I have a question. The other day, I went over to a friends house, and his brother has a drum set. I tried it out for a bit, and really liked the pedal. I asked if I could borrow for a day or two, and he said sure. So I brought it to my house, hooked it up to my bass drum, and tried it, but it is hardly as good a it was on my friends's brother's bass drum. Does the way you tune the front bass drum head make a hug difference? Also, could it be that the drum head, bass drum itself could be messed up and affecting the rebound. I bought the set off of craigslist, so it was hardly in good condition when I bought it, an I still haven't changed the front bass drum head.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

For sure the head tension can affect the rebound. How are they tuned now?

[Thecowslayer]

I'm not sure, I've kept it at whatever the person who owned the set before me had it. Do you know how much a new bass drum head would cost?

[mediocrefunkybeat]

The problem is practice/technique related.

The DW7000 is a good pedal. With your situation, I would advise that you set it to a medium tension and start really practicing. The tension of the front head does make a difference but the drum should be tuned for sound first and feel second; there is no getting around this.

Tune the drum for sound and then just practice. In a few weeks you might want to change something on the pedal but I would not start adjusting anything until you've been practicing for a few weeks. If you rely on the pedal too much you'll develop bad habits. Ideally you should be able to play on any pedal with any bass drum head. I prefer a slightly lower tension than most but I can play on nearly any pedal so long as it isn't excessively tight and the bass drum tension is largely irrelevant. I even play with a 'Vintage Bomber' beater that affords very little rebound but can switch to just about any beater and still make it work.

Bass drum technique is just something you have to seek advice on (I'm not a great technical advisor) and just practice, practice, practice. Changing the settings to what you think might help when you first start is usually a total falsehood and instead just putting the pedal somewhere in the middle and practicing hard is usually the best solution.

Incidentally, I'm 6'2" and have never really had a problem with positioning. I tend to play heel-down (which means that I sit a little further from the kit than some) but just set up where you feel comfortable and how your technique allows.

[Thecowslayer]

Yeah, I know that I definitely need to work on technique, and I have started doing that. I also asked my drum teacher if, at my next lesson, we could go over bass drum technique, and she said sure. Right now I'm just doing quarter notes, and making sure I can do accents with them, among other things, and a small amount of practice doing doubles on the bass drum. I looked up a video on the heel/toe technique, and I understand it a lot more than I used to.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Certainly good that you have a teacher, that definitely will help! Working on dynamics is a great way of learning control but is sadly often neglected - I definitely recommend continuing in this way.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I'm not sure, I've kept it at whatever the person who owned the set before me had it.

You've gotta learn to tune your drums mate.

Start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga8Q12mKYxI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9Unab1OzU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxm3QunDjUs

It's not easy at first, so you've gotta practice it to develop an ear for it. Keep at it and don't be disheartened if you don't get "that sound" immediately. It's a skill that takes time to develop. Like all areas of your drumming, the more you do it, the better you get.


Do you know how much a new bass drum head would cost?

Where I live they run in excess of a hundred bucks for a PS3. If you're in the Sates they'll be a hell of a lot cheaper than that. Head into a store or jump online and check 'em out.

[Thecowslayer]

Yeah, I know that I need to learn to tune, I've tried a lot of times, but every time I do, I end up making the drum sound much worse than before, rather than better.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Yeah, I know that I need to learn to tune, I've tried a lot of times, but every time I do, I end up making the drum sound much worse than before, rather than better.

Two options then. You can either stop trying and have crappy sounding drums for the rest of your life. Or you can grab the bull by the horns and keep at it, become proficient at it and always have the ability to have beautifully tuned drums.

I know what I'd do. ;-)

[Thecowslayer]

Two options then. You can either stop trying and have crappy sounding drums for the rest of your life. Or you can grab the bull by the horns and keep at it, become proficient at it and always have the ability to have beautifully tuned drums.

I know what I'd do. ;-)

Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep trying, even so, tuning is definitely my least favorite part of drumming. Also, thank you for all the advice you've given me, it's been really helpful. To everyone else that's been helpful as well, thanks a lot, you've all definitely helped.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Also, thank you for all the advice you've given me, it's been really helpful.

Pleasure.

How's your footwork coming along? Noticed any improvements?

[Thecowslayer]

I think my technique has gotten a little bit better, and I definitely understand the heel toe technique a lot more now than I used to, I've been practicing it wrong when doing doubles, so that will take a while to fix, but it's better than continuing to practice it the wrong way.

[StephenC]

There's absolutely no way I could play fast double bass without the seating position, throne height and pedal distance being at least comfy if not perfect. I would readjust those things until I feel really good and ONLY THEN get into practicing/playing. So what you even tried is an achievement ;-)

I'd say except you're playing the slide technique your heel should never be further up the pedal than hovering over the heel part of the footplate. Or the other way round, your forefoot (the part which actually is pressing onto the pedal plate) should be about 2/3rd up the pedal plate at best, or further back.

I think it doesn't make much sense to practice to a click like you did in that video - your timing sucks, sorry (=the truth -> let's correct it!).

Slow down!! You don't need a click in the beginning, focus on control and feel. To develop this, practice AS SLOWLY AS NECESSARY to really FEEL what your feet are doing (or your right foot, if single pedal setup). When you're ready to use a click, start slowly, at a range you have full control. Build from there. Why do you start to play 2 consecutive notes? That's too advanced for now. And try developing a feel for dynamics, you should learn how to play with full power (the beater coming back almost to your foot) as one extreme and with reduced power towards your fastest speed (this comes naturally - the faster the playing, the less powerful the strokes/the less beater distance to the bass drum head, as a rule).

As to reaching every drum lessons (http://takelessons.com/category/drums-lessons) element: With some experimenting you should be able to find a (at least nearly) perfect position. Start with the throne, then the pedal(s), then bass drum, snare etc. The snare and toms are usually set up to hit the heads straight in the middle WITHOUT leaning in some directions (except turning either the hands or the upper body towards e.g. the floor tom(s), but even then the sticks should hit them exactly in the middle of the heads).
I agree. Take it slow, you don't need to rush it. Here's a thread that would give you resources such as book/CD for practicing or enhancing your doubles: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13974.
Also here is a youtube video clip with some advice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SROadBUHOGY
Hope it helps.

[Spreggy]

Hmmm, your teacher should be all over this. I'll give you my views, but the more experienced teachers here will have more qualified opinions than mine.

You don't hit hard enough to thud that bass. I was taught by an excellent teacher who explained this as Steve Gadd's technique. Bring your leg up with your toe on the pedal, and come down firmly with your heel hitting the plate at the same time the beater hits the head. When you get to the bottom, completely relax your leg. With doubles, hit with the toe first, firmly, then come down with toe and heel. It's all about leverage. Make sure you stress that second beat nice and firm, so your doubles have authority.

When developing technique, it's important not to go fast. Play a simple beat with bass on 1 and a double on 3 (actually 2a). Keep it slow, go for a nice round full sound.

[mikel]

Keep working on it, It will come with time.

I can only agree with the comment about moving away from the kit. I found that moving my seat about 4" back from my usual crowded position was a revelation.

Both my bass pedal work, and stick work, were more comfortable and easier to control.

I believe Neil Peart has done the same thing, and also raised his seat a little.

I believe he is a fair drummer, too.

[Mad About Drums]

Yeah, I'm definitely going to keep trying, even so, tuning is definitely my least favorite part of drumming. Also, thank you for all the advice you've given me, it's been really helpful. To everyone else that's been helpful as well, thanks a lot, you've all definitely helped.

Keep trying man, you'll find a sound you'll be happy, but tuning IS extremely important on the drumset, not only for sound but for response too.

For a general multi purpsose sound, the batter head tension is just a little bit above the "wrinkle" stage and the resonanace head at medium to reasonably high tension with very little muffling in the drum against the batter head, a "croissant shaped" rolled little towel is quite good.(This is only a suggestion... )

Keep experimenting with that... and keep practicing.

[Mr.L]

Hmmm, your teacher should be all over this. I'll give you my views, but the more experienced teachers here will have more qualified opinions than mine.

You don't hit hard enough to thud that bass. I was taught by an excellent teacher who explained this as Steve Gadd's technique. Bring your leg up with your toe on the pedal, and come down firmly with your heel hitting the plate at the same time the beater hits the head. When you get to the bottom, completely relax your leg. With doubles, hit with the toe first, firmly, then come down with toe and heel. It's all about leverage. Make sure you stress that second beat nice and firm, so your doubles have authority.

When developing technique, it's important not to go fast. Play a simple beat with bass on 1 and a double on 3 (actually 2a). Keep it slow, go for a nice round full sound.

Hmm! That is the exact technique I use, I never knew Steve Gadd used it. I just found it to be very comfortable and it makes quite a sound.

And yes, Tuning is a bit difficult to get into, but take a look at lots of tutorials and find out the proper technique. You should get a good grasp on it soon enough.

[Mad About Drums]

Hmm! That is the exact technique I use, I never knew Steve Gadd used it. I just found it to be very comfortable and it makes quite a sound.

Same for me, it's a great technique... I just add a quick back & forth slide on the footboard for fast tempo or 32nd notes, it's quite powerful as well.

Is it really called "The Steve Gadd Technique" ?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Is it really called "The Steve Gadd Technique" ?

Probably much in the same way that tuning a drum in the star pattern has become known as "the Bob Gatzen method" ...........or RLK has become known as "Bonham triplets"

Neither was the first to employ the method, yet they've become the 'poster boys' for it.

[Thecowslayer]

I didn't realize that people were still replying to this, but thanks again everyone. I've moved my seat back from the drum set, and while it's a bit weird to play now, it's helped my bass drum technique, and my hand technique. I've also been doing what you said Spreggy, making sure that my heel actually hits the plate, which is something I wasn't doing before.