Crosshanded Disadvantages.

[\o/]

I've seen threads on playing open handed and people asking whether they should. I couldn't sleep last night and got to thinking that maybe it's a more efficient way to play and i might try it. The only thing weird about it i could think of (for me being left handed and playing my ride on the left) is that when playing hi-hat beats my left hand would hit the snare, yet i'd have to change and hit the snare with my right hand when playing the ride.

Are there any more disadvantages to playing open handed, and what actually is the point/advantage of playing crosshanded, cause i can't think of any?

[topgun2021]

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80752

This thread.

[\o/]

That's more about why we play that way, the history of it. I'm thinking more of can anyone put an argument forward as to what the actual point of doing it is from a technical point of view. Is there anything limiting about open-handedness in terms of there are things you can't do with it that you can do cross handed...cause i can't think of any, and the crossing over just seems like a pointless complication at the moment. I'm just wondering if anyone knows otherwise, seeing as i'm new to drumming.

[Deathmetalconga]

Each approach has advantages and disadvantages. If you are comfortable doing it one way, then I really see no point in switching.

The main advantage I see to openhanded playing is that you have the potential for greater independence. Your snare stick isn't trapped under your hats stick. To see how inconvenient crossed playing is, put your ride cymbal to your left, and try playing it with the right hand, and you will see what I mean. It makes as much sense to cross over to play the ride, as it does to cross over to play the hats.

In open playing, your hats, ride and snare are all close together and the left hand can play them without interfering with the movement of the right hand, which is playing snare, toms and crash.

If you are going to play open, do it completely and put your ride next to your hats and play both with your left hand. Some people play hats with the left hand and ride with the right. The only purpose of that is ambidexterity, which is fine if you want to do that, but the drawback is that you have to cross-train your right and left hands to play snare and hat/ride patterns. I'd rather stick to assigned hand roles and refine them.

The main advantage to crossed playing is simple custom and social inertia. If you have play other peoples' sets a lot. it is more convenient to adopt their style. There may be an advantage to leading with the right hand, but all that stuff is relative and you can adjust your playing without much trouble.

[\o/]

Each approach has advantages and disadvantages. If you are comfortable doing it one way, then I really see no point in switching.

The main advantage I see to openhanded playing is that you have the potential for greater independence. Your snare stick isn't trapped under your hats stick. To see how inconvenient crossed playing is, put your ride cymbal to your left, and try playing it with the right hand, and you will see what I mean. It makes as much sense to cross over to play the ride, as it does to cross over to play the hats.

In open playing, your hats, ride and snare are all close together and the left hand can play them without interfering with the movement of the right hand, which is playing snare, toms and crash.

If you are going to play open, do it completely and put your ride next to your hats and play both with your left hand. Some people play hats with the left hand and ride with the right. The only purpose of that is ambidexterity, which is fine if you want to do that, but the drawback is that you have to cross-train your right and left hands to play snare and hat/ride patterns. I'd rather stick to assigned hand roles and refine them.

The main advantage to crossed playing is simple custom and social inertia. If you have play other peoples' sets a lot. it is more convenient to adopt their style. There may be an advantage to leading with the right hand, but all that stuff is relative and you can adjust your playing without much trouble.
Hmm thanks very much. I think you might have just convinced me to give open a go with your 'try playing the ride with your furtherest away hand' typa comment. Cheers.

[\o/]

Another quick point, would anyone recommend me setting my kit up right-handed if i'm going to play open handed? I'm equally comfortable playing bass with either leg (i have a pretty big degree of ambidexterity - i do loads of stuff back to front and 'normally') so would it make more sense to play hats with my left (stronger hand) and snare with my right open handed, or keep it in my normal set up so i can practice crossed over as well? (if i play a righty kit and cross over it feels really wrong)

[toddbishop]

Are there any more disadvantages to playing open handed, and what actually is the point/advantage of playing crosshanded, cause i can't think of any?

The major advantage of playing the normal way is that you don't have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride cymbal to the hi-hat. The major disadvantage of playing open-handed is that you have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride to the hi-hat.

I look at this kind of fiddling around with the instrument as a way of dodging the real work of learning to be a musician. There is so much other important stuff to work on.

[\o/]

The major advantage of playing the normal way is that you don't have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride cymbal to the hi-hat. The major disadvantage of playing open-handed is that you have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride to the hi-hat.

I look at this kind of fiddling around with the instrument as a way of dodging the real work of learning to be a musician. There is so much other important stuff to work on.
I'm not trying to dodge any work, in fact that hadn't come into my mind at all. It was just bourne out of looking at it and thinking that logically crossing over makes no sense. And for a beginner like myself there's not an awful lot to relearn.

[toddbishop]

I'm not trying to dodge any work, in fact that hadn't come into my mind at all. It was just bourne out of looking at it and thinking that logically crossing over makes no sense. And for a beginner like myself there's not an awful lot to relearn.

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you in particular of anything. It's a thing a lot of people do instinctively when they're new to something- they look for work-arounds for things that don't make immediate sense to them, instead of just doing the work. Many smart people before you dealt with the same issue and arrived at a consensus for the most effective way of doing things- with a handful of exceptions, all of the greatest drummers play the hi-hat the usual "crossed" way. When in doubt, do what everybody good does.

[Fox622003]

I'm not trying to dodge any work, in fact that hadn't come into my mind at all. It was just bourne out of looking at it and thinking that logically crossing over makes no sense. And for a beginner like myself there's not an awful lot to relearn.

Yep, I agree. I think it actually benefits you a lot to train your hands for both roles. Because it's not only about time keeping/groove playing, when it comes to fills, or less common beats, you can easily adapt and have more possibilities to play them.
As a beginner, you might want to play hats open handed, and ride open handed, but in a regular set up, so as I mentioned above, you'll be switching roles when you switch your riding cymbal, which will contribute to much more even and equally capable hands.


Fox.

[Fox622003]

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you in particular of anything. It's a thing a lot of people do instinctively when they're new to something- they look for work-arounds for things that don't make immediate sense to them, instead of just doing the work. Many smart people before you dealt with the same issue and arrived at a consensus for the most effective way of doing things- with a handful of exceptions, all of the greatest drummers play the hi-hat the usual "crossed" way. When in doubt, do what everybody good does.

That's true, but also, Thomas Lang admitted to play traditional for years and becoming very proficient in it just for the looks pretty much. I hope this doesn't turn into another "traditional vs. matched" thread. Besides, most pros may play like that, because that's how it sounds best, but having the skill of both hands at an equal level tightens up fills, hand coordination, and let's you chose how to approach certain part. Whereas if you've never practiced open-handed playing, you're gonna be stuck with just one way of doing things.


Fox.

[sticks4drums]

Here is a great example of a guy who plays open handed but plays a mirrored kit, playing both sides equally as good with the right and left of his body. Randy Black of Primal Fear. This to me would be a great way to learn.
http://www.sticks4drums.com/apps/videos/videos/show/12686923-randy-black-primal-fear

[toddbishop]

That's true, but also, Thomas Lang admitted to play traditional for years and becoming very proficient in it just for the looks pretty much. I hope this doesn't turn into another "traditional vs. matched" thread.

That's quite a bit different than this- those are both well-established techniques each used by large numbers of the best musicians. Anyway, the OP asked for opinions.

Besides, most pros may play like that, because that's how it sounds best, but having the skill of both hands at an equal level tightens up fills, hand coordination, and let's you chose how to approach certain part.

Yes, of course- I wasn't arguing in favor of weak left hands.

Whereas if you've never practiced open-handed playing, you're gonna be stuck with just one way of doing things.

It didn't prove to be much of a hindrance for people like- well, how many of the tens of thousands of good, great, excellent, and world class drummers of the last ~80 years do you want me to name?

[Mark_S]

I like the idea of learning open handed so I can play the toms more easily as part of a groove, then it's just a matter of choosing which feels right for any particular groove. I think how it feels has a lot to do with it. For some grooves, I love the feeling of crossing, but it obviously doesn't work very well if you need to use more of the kit and can't get to it.

I imagine it strengthens the left hand a lot too improving general playing and left hand lead.

[Deathmetalconga]

The major advantage of playing the normal way is that you don't have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride cymbal to the hi-hat. The major disadvantage of playing open-handed is that you have to re-learn how to play the drums to move your time pattern from the ride to the hi-hat.

I look at this kind of fiddling around with the instrument as a way of dodging the real work of learning to be a musician. There is so much other important stuff to work on.

As for the first paragraph: I think the best way to play open handed is to use the same hand for hats and ride (in my case, the left hand). Agreed, it is a dumb idea to play hats with one hand and ride with the other. You might want to know that I and many other open-handed players support assigned hand roles. Taking that criticism away, I am hard-pressed to find any disadvantage at all to open hand playing, except for playing other peoples' kits.

As for the second paragraph: Why, ahem, are you even wasting your time here then? The trap set is such a new, upstart instrument, barely 100 years old. There is no "right" and "wrong" way to play such a green instrument. Indeed, all drummers were open-handed until the hardware limitations of the trap set forced the unnatural, awkward and highly limiting practice of crossed playing. Even crossed players now put their ride on the right, to enjoy the benefits of open-handed playing. I really can't blame them one bit.

[Yopps]

As for the first paragraph: I think the best way to play open handed is to use the same hand for hats and ride (in my case, the left hand). Agreed, it is a dumb idea to play hats with one hand and ride with the other. You might want to know that I and many other open-handed players support assigned hand roles. Taking that criticism away, I am hard-pressed to find any disadvantage at all to open hand playing, except for playing other peoples' kits.

As for the second paragraph: Why, ahem, are you even wasting your time here then? The trap set is such a new, upstart instrument, barely 100 years old. There is no "right" and "wrong" way to play such a green instrument. Indeed, all drummers were open-handed until the hardware limitations of the trap set forced the unnatural, awkward and highly limiting practice of crossed playing. Even crossed players now put their ride on the right, to enjoy the benefits of open-handed playing. I really can't blame them one bit.



Why? I'm an open hander and always have my right hand go from snare to ride when the time comes. Never had any issues with that. Playing open handed gives you better rack tom and cymbal access I think.

[BillBachman]

In my opinion crossing over is a huge limitation, and you never know how limited you are until you no longer have to cross. Yes, many great drummers have done just fine like that over the last 80 or so years since the invention of the normal hi hat stand, but so what? For centuries people got around just fine on horses too.

Playing open handed is certainly good for development of the weaker left hand, but many probably don't want to spend a portion of their lives relearning how to play the same stuff with their more awkward hand leading. Plus, playing open handed with the hats to the left will still necessitate crossing over for many patterns so you're still quite limited after all. And a cable hat to the right of the floor tom option leaves your left hand practically unable to access the hats at all, once again putting a major limitation on the possibilities (and never mind the fact that all traditional cable hats lag and drag).

I've found centering the hi hats using a remote (or at least moving them to right enough that the hands are uncrossed) to be the answer, this way both hands can move between the hats and snare unencumbered. Everything you play now is instantly easier and there are thousands of new musical possibilities. (Plus it's easier not having to hold one arm up higher than the other to reach the hats which are normally higher than the snare).

Don't fear change, center the hats in order to set your hands totally free from all crossing & enjoy the ease of playing with your natural hand leading and the thousands of new musical possibilities. That's my take on it!

[sticks4drums]

In my opinion crossing over is a huge limitation, and you never know how limited you are until you no longer have to cross. Yes, many great drummers have done just fine like that over the last 80 or so years since the invention of the normal hi hat stand, but so what? For centuries people got around just fine on horses too.

Playing open handed is certainly good for development of the weaker left hand, but many probably don't want to spend a portion of their lives relearning how to play the same stuff with their more awkward hand leading. Plus, playing open handed with the hats to the left will still necessitate crossing over for many patterns so you're still quite limited after all. And a cable hat to the right of the floor tom option leaves your left hand practically unable to access the hats at all, once again putting a major limitation on the possibilities (and never mind the fact that all traditional cable hats lag and drag).

I've found centering the hi hats using a remote (or at least moving them to right enough that the hands are uncrossed) to be the answer, this way both hands can move between the hats and snare unencumbered. Everything you play now is instantly easier and there are thousands of new musical possibilities. (Plus it's easier not having to hold one arm up higher than the other to reach the hats which are normally higher than the snare).

Don't fear change, center the hats in order to set your hands totally free from all crossing & enjoy the ease of playing with your natural hand leading and the thousands of new musical possibilities. That's my take on it!
But centering the hats will interfere with my long tom rolls. :)

[toddbishop]

Indeed, all drummers were open-handed until the hardware limitations of the trap set forced the unnatural, awkward and highly limiting practice of crossed playing.

It's funny, I'm having a hard time detecting the limitation that is so obvious to you. Where you see unnatural, awkward, limited drumming, I see the greatest musicians in the world. (http://www.drummerworld.com/drummerchoice.html) Really, if you want an unorthodox technique to be accepted, you need to show some results- so far I just see a few mavericks like Cobham and Lenny White, along with some younger chops guys. I don't see a revolution there, and I don't know of any field in the world where you throw out overwhelmingly successful and accepted practices just on somebody's unproven claim of having something new and improved.

[Wavelength]

Here's a good video showing what it really looks like when a person plays the hihat with the right hand. It often seems that the open handed enthusiasts dislike the idea of right hand crossing over but don't really understand the reality of it.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/keithcarlockdvdsolo.html

The first words I'd use to describe Keith's stick work aren't "uncomfortable", "constrained", "limited" or "disadvantageous".

[Mark_S]

Here's a good video showing what it really looks like when a person plays the hihat with the right hand. It often seems that the open handed enthusiasts dislike the idea of right hand crossing over but don't really understand the reality of it.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/keithcarlockdvdsolo.html

The first words I'd use to describe Keith's stick work aren't "uncomfortable", "constrained", "limited" or "disadvantageous".

+1
If it is that bad then someone better tell Weckl to not switch back from his x-hats to his main hats during a song because he's doing himself a dis-service.... Though I think he's got the nouse to work that out for himself IF it were true.

I hope this doesn't turn into a daft divisive argument like the whole matched/traditional argument. At the end of the day, surely if you've spent enough time on both ways you can then make your own decision.

With all the technology for x-hats these days, we can basically stick 'em where we want, IF we so wish.. but please don't tell me what is and is not comfortable and awkward *for me* and everyone else.

EDIT: Sorry didn't mean to lose my temper there, must be something to do with being at work! Anyway.. it's all groovy man just hit them shiny thangs.. ;-)

[kettles]

I have only ever found cross-handed playing to be annoying when trying to get really loud backbeats. Using my right hand also gives me more freedom as to how I'm hitting - with the tip, shoulder, or on the bell. Because my left is closer to the hats, I can't do the same without having my wrist bent at an awkward angle. I could lower the hats right down, but then I get even more tangled up when crossing over. I'm competent leading with my left for simpler stuff, but I don't think my left hand will ever match my right.

[\o/]

Some great opinions there to give plenty of food for thought. I think i might leave my set up as it is, and try both ways. Seems some open handed playing will help me iron out some independence issues that i'm having at this early stage, such as certain leg following certain hand etc.

[Mark_S]

Some great opinions there to give plenty of food for thought. I think i might leave my set up as it is, and try both ways. Seems some open handed playing will help me iron out some independence issues that i'm having at this early stage, such as certain leg following certain hand etc.

Sounds good - it's slowly dawned on me that to get better and figure these things out you have to just practise one hell of a lot, instead of spending lots of time on the Internet searching to find the one holy-grail way of playing, because I don't think there is one.

I think this is the clip where Derek Roddy sais words to this effect with regards double bass drum technique (I can't check, I'm at work and can't stick the sound on) : -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBnhM-8j7bc

[Wavelength]

I have only ever found cross-handed playing to be annoying when trying to get really loud backbeats.

Accenting the hi-hat on quarter notes creates a natural "lift" to your lead hand which enables you to play the snare accents as loud as you'll ever need.

[\o/]

Accenting the hi-hat on quarter notes creates a natural "lift" to your lead hand which enables you to play the snare accents as loud as you'll ever need.
What if you don't want to accent the hi-hat though? If you wanted to play really soft hi-hat and quite pronounced snare in a beat it could be tricky. Not discrediting you, just throwing a conundrum out there.

[Swiss Matthias]

Here's a good video showing what it really looks like when a person plays the hihat with the right hand. It often seems that the open handed enthusiasts dislike the idea of right hand crossing over but don't really understand the reality of it.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/keithcarlockdvdsolo.html

The first words I'd use to describe Keith's stick work aren't "uncomfortable", "constrained", "limited" or "disadvantageous".

Exactly! And in this video we clearly see the ADVANTAGE of having the same hand keeping
the same role in the playing (riding cymbals) no matter if it's the hihat or the rides.

If I played open handed I feel I'd have to learn everything twice, one time leading with the
left hand on the hihat, and then leading on the right hand on the ride. Placing my ride(s)
on the left (far left or at normal crash position) would be no option for me.

So I'm perfectly comfortable with playing "crossed over" (which isn't that much crossed
anyway).

By the way I do check out open handed playing for fun from time to time, for example
when I play with my students I often play their stuff open handed just for a change and
a bit of coordination training.

[Deathmetalconga]

It's funny, I'm having a hard time detecting the limitation that is so obvious to you. Where you see unnatural, awkward, limited drumming, I see the greatest musicians in the world. (http://www.drummerworld.com/drummerchoice.html) Really, if you want an unorthodox technique to be accepted, you need to show some results- so far I just see a few mavericks like Cobham and Lenny White, along with some younger chops guys. I don't see a revolution there, and I don't know of any field in the world where you throw out overwhelmingly successful and accepted practices just on somebody's unproven claim of having something new and improved.

The limitation to which I refer is the necessity of installing the hihat on the left in early trap sets. Modern equipment allows the hats to be placed and used anywhere (regardless of custom or inertia).

I see awkward, unnatural crossed playing among the greatest drummers in the world (other musicians play open regardless). The two are not exclusive.

Social inertia, custom and irrationality serve as good enough guides for people, even when they accomplish great things. What I think of crossed playing doesn't limit anyone.

The fact that all crossed drummers put their ride on the right, to play open, is a huge ringing endorsement, to me, for open playing. Crossed players really wish to play open; they just don't know it yet.

[Swiss Matthias]

The fact that all crossed drummers put their ride on the right, to play open, is a huge ringing endorsement, to me, for open playing. Crossed players really wish to play open; they just don't know it yet.

So assuming you're an open hand player - where do you have your ride?

[sticks4drums]

Well I practiced open handed today, and I do believe it would be a better way to drum. I think I will try and get to the point where I can do either way.

[8Mile]

I don't think there are any "big" problems with either approach. Crossing over is no big deal. I learned to play open-handed when i started out just because I wanted to gain the coordinative advantages of developing my left hand. I practiced all my patterns riding with both right and left hands.

There are some options that open-handed playing frees up for the right hand but I found them to be of negligible value when applied to real playing situations. Again, I'm speaking only for myself, not any of you. Maybe it's a big difference-maker for you. If so, more power to you and keep doing it. I have the coordination to ride my hats with my left hand and do other things with my right hand if the need arises so I guess I'm a part-time open-hander anyway. You pretty much have to be to play Steve Smith's Don't Stop Believin', right? :)

From my perspective, this is much ado about nothing (or very little, anyway).

[sticks4drums]

I don't think there are any "big" problems with either approach. Crossing over is no big deal. I learned to play open-handed when i started out just because I wanted to gain the coordinative advantages of developing my left hand. I practiced all my patterns riding with both right and left hands.

There are some options that open-handed playing frees up for the right hand but I found them to be of negligible value when applied to real playing situations. Again, I'm speaking only for myself, not any of you. Maybe it's a big difference-maker for you. If so, more power to you and keep doing it. I have the coordination to ride my hats with my left hand and do other things with my right hand if the need arises so I guess I'm a part-time open-hander anyway. You pretty much have to be to play Steve Smith's Don't Stop Believin', right? :)

From my perspective, this is much ado about nothing (or very little, anyway).

I like when you are on here. You have a great way of putting stuff, that makes people feel at ease. It is a skill I hope to master one day. :) What you say makes sense. I would like to get strong enough with my left hand on the hats so that It wouldn't matter how I played. Either hand could do the job.

[Deathmetalconga]

So assuming you're an open hand player - where do you have your ride?

I have my ride on the left, very close to the hats. And the hats are very close to the snare. I rarely ride or play hats with the right hand - I am as separate in my assigned hand roles as most other drummers.

[kettles]

Accenting the hi-hat on quarter notes creates a natural "lift" to your lead hand which enables you to play the snare accents as loud as you'll ever need.

haha, I like how you assume how loud I need my snare. I don't always like to hammer the hats, often I play them relatively light and constant (without any accent) while slamming the kick and snare.

And for that I just play left hand lead anyway

[BillBachman]

Accenting the hi-hat on quarter notes creates a natural "lift" to your lead hand which enables you to play the snare accents as loud as you'll ever need.

That's pretty much true if you're only trying to smack the snare on the downbeats. What about the "e," "and" and "ah" though?

Centering my hats so that my left hand has total freedom has allowed my vocabulary to open up greatly. When I sit in on somebody else's set where I need to cross for the hats I can still play OK, but I find myself seriously editing what I'd like to say musically since so much of what I now do won't work crossed over. (Or it would at least require an awkward technique change to get it in there).

[Wavelength]

That's pretty much true if you're only trying to smack the snare on the downbeats. What about the "e," "and" and "ah" though?

I can play any accent pattern on the snare while playing any accent pattern on the hi-hat (within reason and human capabilities). I don't find my hands getting in the way of one another.

[\o/]

I can play any accent pattern on the snare while playing any accent pattern on the hi-hat (within reason and human capabilities). I don't find my hands getting in the way of one another.
I suppose hat height could be a factor in this particular debate?

[Swiss Matthias]

I have my ride on the left, very close to the hats. And the hats are very close to the snare. I rarely ride or play hats with the right hand - I am as separate in my assigned hand roles as most other drummers.
That makes sense. Some guys play open-handed but have their ride on the right side.
Which is quite absurd to me...

[sticks4drums]

Did anyone look at that Randy Black video I put on here about 20 posts earlier. Would love to hear what you think of his style. I don't like the music, just found his style interesting.

[Too Many Songs]

I did. I'm not really sure (apart from perhaps relieving the boredom) as to why you would do that. If he had different voices set up on either side of the kit it would make more musical sense but just a 'mirror'. I don't get it and I think only drummers would appreciate the technical aspect. Was that who he was aiming to impress?

If it was then fair enough he succeeded. He's a master of the instrument and has a capacity to lead with either hand that I can only envy. Shame that that ability is wasted (at least as demonstrated in this video).

[Mark_S]

I suppose hat height could be a factor in this particular debate?

Yes, if I have my hats far too low then my sticks will hit on some patterns, and it just feels uncomfortable.

I definitely think its worth learning open handed for some things, I just don't think there's anything inherently wrong with crossing on grooves where it doesn't cause a problem, especially if it feels good to the player. Some grooves just feel great that way (Tommy Igoe said something similar on one of his Groove Essentials DVD's).

Also I tend to notice some drummers position there hats closer to the snare than others, and some further forwards than others depending on how they sit at the kit (more straight on or more turned to the left). Having a double kick pedal obviously affects this too unless you have it on the left of the hats.

If the hats are too far from the snare and my hands begin to be on the same vertical plane or even crossed, then yes it does get uncomfortable, but I never let my set up get like that. When using my 14" hats and just single kick, the edge of the hats actually comes over the top of the snare slightly.

The way I have my hats, my hands are not crossed (my right hand is probably a couple of inches to the rigtht of my left hand). I've only seen drummers actually crossing their arms a couple of times when their hats are way over to the left (like a whole foot) and yes that does look very uncomfortable.

I guess with everything, experiment and adjust as neccessary (positioning), learn a new technique if neccessary (open handed), buy some new equipment if neccessary (remote speed hats).. whatever feels right to you.

This feels a bit like the matched / traditional debate.. I think it's one of those things where you have to think for yourself (shock horror) ;-)

Basically, I agree with 8mile. Much ado about nothing.

[sticks4drums]

I did. I'm not really sure (apart from perhaps relieving the boredom) as to why you would do that. If he had different voices set up on either side of the kit it would make more musical sense but just a 'mirror'. I don't get it and I think only drummers would appreciate the technical aspect. Was that who he was aiming to impress?

If it was then fair enough he succeeded. He's a master of the instrument and has a capacity to lead with either hand that I can only envy. Shame that that ability is wasted (at least as demonstrated in this video).
Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[\o/]

I just wanted to get opinions and i certainly got lots of them!

I think i'm going to stick with my normal set up but learn some regular patterns open handed just to help with independence between hands and feet and to practice leading with different hands. Learning the same patterns open handed purely so you can do it open handed seems a waste of time if you can do them perfectly fine crossed - so aside from the independence advantages it could be a waste of valuable practice time.

[Pollyanna]

When I was young I used to enjoy seeing drummers theatrically lift their left hand and neatly lift their crossed over right hand out of the way to do it. Not hard to do but it looks cool to laypersons.

[Too Many Songs]

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh... I didn't really mean it to be an ouch. I guessed (because of the way the camera was set up) that he was trying only to demonstrate technique and not to fully exploit that technique in a musical way. So let me say again. He is a virtuoso and has a technical mastery that I can only envy.

But music is to be listened to I think and on that measure you have to say so what? More of a slight bruise and a full blown 'ouch' really.

[sticks4drums]

Oh... I didn't really mean it to be an ouch. I guessed (because of the way the camera was set up) that he was trying only to demonstrate technique and not to fully exploit that technique in a musical way. So let me say again. He is a virtuoso and has a technical mastery that I can only envy.

But music is to be listened to I think and on that measure you have to say so what? More of a slight bruise and a full blown 'ouch' really.
That's OK. I just love the way he flows effortlessly with both hands, on both sides of the kit. I am a symmetrical kind of guy, so the kit appeals to me visually that way. After all, it is entertainment. I find him entertaining to watch. Don't like the music at all.

[Too Many Songs]

That's OK. I just love the way he flows effortlessly with both hands, on both sides of the kit. I am a symmetrical kind of guy, so the kit appeals to me visually that way. After all, it is entertainment. I find him entertaining to watch. Don't like the music at all.

I used to think that playing the drums was a bit like dancing or even a martial art and that watching the masters was fulfilling just on a visual level. A friend of mine (a true master of the instrument) has worked with dancers before and has remarked on the parallel as has (I seem to keep mentioning this player at the moment) Jon Hiseman. And Steve Gadd has said something about learning to tap dance when he was young being useful for drumming.

Polly's point about some movement just being elegant and beautiful to watch. Thomas Lang admitting that he uses the trad grip because it looks good. And of course the almost endless requests from players wanting to learn stick tricks. It all suggests that there is a considerable visual entertainment value going on here.

But... and I don't want to dismiss showmanship or any of that visually pleasing stuff but ultimately music has to be about the noise you make. Everything else must be secondary I think or we will all end up as cynical as Simon Cowell.

There - now I've gone as said a cuss word. Shucks...

[Mark_S]

Everything else must be secondary I think or we will all end up as cynical as Simon Cowell.

There - now I've gone as said a cuss word. Shucks...

In future please use S**** C*****.

Thank you.

;-)

[larryace]

This thread is like debating how you make love to a woman. It's all individual, and however you make it work is OK. Myself I go open handed when I need to play hi hat and toms together. Or hi hat and a cymbal on my right together. Then your arms are truly crossed, not an ideal situation. When I play "crossed", my hands or arms really aren't crossed, so it's not limiting to me. Playing open handed should be practiced though, if only for the times when it really is better than crossing your arms.

[Deathmetalconga]

When I was young I used to enjoy seeing drummers theatrically lift their left hand and neatly lift their crossed over right hand out of the way to do it. Not hard to do but it looks cool to laypersons.

Agreed, it does look cool. I've also seen guitarists and keyboardists cross their hands over and it looks neat also. How come other musicians don't play like that as a standard way to play, though? Just drummers cross over to play.

[Swiss Matthias]

Are you really comparing drummers crossing their sticks to a guitar player playing his
instrument completely crossed?

[Deathmetalconga]

Are you really comparing drummers crossing their sticks to a guitar player playing his
instrument completely crossed?

Yes, I am. No one types, eats, drives, uses tools or plays any other instrument in a crossed manner, except for brief instances. People do everything in life openhanded. Only drummers cross their hands or sticks - part of the time, at least. No one crosses over to play ride and I can't blame them!

[DSCRAPRE]

No one crosses over to play ride and I can't blame them!

This guy does, but he totally sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk1td9Fz-Ng

(sarcasm definitely intended)

[Fancypants]

This guy does, but he totally sucks.


Wow.... Just wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V70BYk5D0e8

[DSCRAPRE]

Wow.... Just wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V70BYk5D0e8

That man is just an absolute swing machine. Beautiful.

[Deathmetalconga]

This guy does, but he totally sucks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk1td9Fz-Ng

(sarcasm definitely intended)

He's not crossing over much. Why not go whole-hog and put the ride near the hats? That would be amazing to see also.

Great playing aside, it seems to make more sense to play the ride cymbal openhanded, like everyone else does.

[larryace]

Open handed does make more sense, for sure. It gives you more room to work without getting in your own way. I am so used to it by now, meaning working with the 2 hands in close proximity, that I am reluctant to jump ship at this point.

I do use open handed when it's really stupid to cross that far though. I have to try really hard not to get it backwards though lol. That always gets puzzled looks.

Martin, you started playing open handed from day 1, right? I'm curious, can you play crossed on the level that you can play open handed? Because I cannot play nearly as well open handed as I can crossed. I'm right handed, and my left hand can play my snare far better than my strong hand can, because I trained it to from day 1. With your left hand riding, which really is a strengthener, do you think you could finesse the snare equally as well with either hand?

[Deathmetalconga]

Open handed does make more sense, for sure. It gives you more room to work without getting in your own way. I am so used to it by now, meaning working with the 2 hands in close proximity, that I am reluctant to jump ship at this point.

I do use open handed when it's really stupid to cross that far though. I have to try really hard not to get it backwards though lol. That always gets puzzled looks.

Martin, you started playing open handed from day 1, right? I'm curious, can you play crossed on the level that you can play open handed? Because I cannot play nearly as well open handed as I can crossed. I'm right handed, and my left hand can play my snare far better than my strong hand can, because I trained it to from day 1. With your left hand riding, which really is a strengthener, do you think you could finesse the snare equally as well with either hand?

If crossed works well for you, then I don't think there's any reason to switch, unless you want ambidexterity. Given the limited amount of time I can devote to practice, ambidexterity isn't of much use to me. The advantages of open playing don't really make a huge difference (look at all the best players - they played crossed) and it isn't worth switching your entire approach to the set.

Yes, I started playing open handed from the get-go and I have never played crossed. A few times, I do use my right hand on the hats or ride, like if my left hand is on the ride and I want to mix things up by adding in hats. I play crossed about as much as a crossed player plays open - maybe just 1 or 2 percent of the time.

I am right handed also and I like having my dominant hand on the snare. Not only is it stronger than my left hand, but I have better control for single-handed rolls. I think it is advantageous to have one's dominant hand on the snare. A trade off is that my left hand is MUCH less dextrous on the snare than my dominant hand, simply because my left hand does not play the snare much.

As for the difference in strength between the dominant and non-dominant limbs, I suspect in most people, it amounts to very little. I think wear and tear on the dominant limb would be much more of a concern than relative strength. I think it helps avoid injury to have my non-dominant limb carry the more stressful workload in drumming.

[Swiss Matthias]

I am right handed also and I like having my dominant hand on the snare. Not only is it stronger than my left hand, but I have better control for single-handed rolls. I think it is advantageous to have one's dominant hand on the snare. A trade off is that my left hand is MUCH less dextrous on the snare than my dominant hand, simply because my left hand does not play the snare much.

do you play jazz? I wouldn't want to swing the ride with my "weak" hand, so to me it's
consquent to have my ride placed on the right side, and therefore play my hihat with
the same hand, too.

[Deathmetalconga]

do you play jazz? I wouldn't want to swing the ride with my "weak" hand, so to me it's
consquent to have my ride placed on the right side, and therefore play my hihat with
the same hand, too.

I do play jazz, and I absolutely swing with my non-dominant (left) hand. In fact, sharing the load like that has kept away tendinitis in my right hand.

I've never had them scientifically measured, but my hands/arms seem to be of about equal strength, at least in terms of swinging 3-ounce drumsticks around.

[8Mile]

Question for open-handed players: How do you handle lead-hand considerations when playing a fill around the drums from left to right? Do you switch to right-hand lead if you're playing a descending tom fill, for instance?

[Deathmetalconga]

Question for open-handed players: How do you handle lead-hand considerations when playing a fill around the drums from left to right? Do you switch to right-hand lead if you're playing a descending tom fill, for instance?

There are various ways to handle this. I may begin on the left hand, which means the fill starts a note sooner or later that it would if I started on the right hand. Or I may double up on the right hand. People who begin fills with their right hand do this same kind of thing, but in reverse.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

If it's a disadvantage it's a simple thing to change.

Let's say e.g. you want to have a hand going on the hi-hat while hitting some toms. Several solutions.

1) Get an x-hat or remote wire controlled hat and put it on the right side instead or in addition to the left one.
2) Put a tom or two on the left side.
3) Learn to play open handed for that situation.

This can be said for everything on the kit, depending on what you want to do. It's simply a case of adding stuff, moving stuff around or practicing a bit of independence. Each one is just as valid as the other.

My setup is pretty standard. I play crossed with traditional grip most of the time. I don't really feel limited and I like how it feels to cross and be able to close and work the snare's tonal variations with the traditional grip. For anyone who feels limited by that, they should simply change. I feel comfortable in the tradition, but there's absolutely no reason for anyone to choose that if they have different wants and/or needs. Do what you have to do in order to make music the way you want to.

[treebot]

I dont see any disadvantage, if there actually was a serious disadvantage to crossing open handed playing would be much more popular, here im only really seeing one person arguing pro open handed, and the examples of why its better are pretty poor and very exaggerated, also deathmetalcongo you said you started playing open handed, and never played cross, so your really not in a position to tell other people why its wrong, since you only play your way. I think the Carlock video was an amazing example, if your worried about speed or power crossing over, watch Deantoni Parks, then tell me its wrong and that how he would be better. The best technique is what works best for you. Just like all other techniques, its not how you do it, its that you do it. Practice makes perfect, pick what feels right and play

[Jeff Almeyda]

Lots of guys use some sort of "in between" method. The ride on the right, x or remote hat on right and regular hi hat on left does the trick for me.

It's all overrated. And it has no real musical basis in reality. Most of the arguments I hear are "it's unnatural" and " a baby wouldn't cross his arms why should you" Those arguments are irrelevant. What matters is: can you serve the music? If you have ever felt that playing cross handed inhibited your ability to serve the music then look into it. But don't get into it because of some high minded concept of ergonomics. Most musical instruments have "unnatural" moves in their technical lexicon. Is it "natural" to stick a violin under your neck?

And don't get into it to improve your technique. If you want a better left hand then get to work on the pad. Here's a little secret: it improved my left hand but not nearly as much as I had hoped. So don't buy into the hype about that either.

I spent 4 years playing left hand lead open handed, at Dom Famularo's urging. The truth is, I spent 4 years re-learning stuff that I could already play well. And I still sounded better playing righty lead. So, to me, I wasted 4 years and didn't improve my musical vocabulary much.

[Deathmetalconga]

I dont see any disadvantage, if there actually was a serious disadvantage to crossing open handed playing would be much more popular, here im only really seeing one person arguing pro open handed, and the examples of why its better are pretty poor and very exaggerated, also deathmetalcongo you said you started playing open handed, and never played cross, so your really not in a position to tell other people why its wrong, since you only play your way. I think the Carlock video was an amazing example, if your worried about speed or power crossing over, watch Deantoni Parks, then tell me its wrong and that how he would be better. The best technique is what works best for you. Just like all other techniques, its not how you do it, its that you do it. Practice makes perfect, pick what feels right and play

The reason more people don't play open is because more people don't play open. It's simple custom. If you think crossing your sticks or hands to do things works well, then do that when you type your reply to this. Or when you eat. Or drive. Or play ride cymbal. The fact that crossed players play open whenever they play ride proves that they, too, see the advantages of playing open. I just do it all the time, not part of the time.

If you have something that works for you, then stick to it. But if you play like everyone else, you will sound like everyone else.

[Red Menace]

The reason more people don't play open is because more people don't play open. It's simple custom. If you think crossing your sticks or hands to do things works well, then do that when you type your reply to this. Or when you eat. Or drive. Or play ride cymbal. The fact that crossed players play open whenever they play ride proves that they, too, see the advantages of playing open. I just do it all the time, not part of the time.

If you have something that works for you, then stick to it. But if you play like everyone else, you will sound like everyone else.

DMC,sorry but that's just a terrible argument. More people don't drink Rye because more people don't drink rye. Huh??!!

People don't play open handed because its difficult to learn to lead with your non-dominate hand. Just because I reach over to my right to play my ride doesn't make me a convert to open handed playing, that's just where I keep my ride. Also I think its a bit pessimistic to say that ALL drummers with similar technique sound the same. Shoot. I wish. Does that mean I'll sound like Buddy and Louie just because I'm a trad player? Please let it be so, I'm getting quite tired pro practicing. :-D

[Mark_S]

The reason more people don't play open is because more people don't play open. It's simple custom. If you think crossing your sticks or hands to do things works well, then do that when you type your reply to this. Or when you eat. Or drive. Or play ride cymbal. The fact that crossed players play open whenever they play ride proves that they, too, see the advantages of playing open. I just do it all the time, not part of the time.

If you have something that works for you, then stick to it. But if you play like everyone else, you will sound like everyone else.

I don't mean to sound hostile, but why do you keep ignoring what all the cross handed players are saying? You don't seem to want to listen or accept that they find it perfectly comfortable. Unless you are suggesting they are dim-witted or lieing? Which I'm sure you aren't.

Your argument about crossing to type on a keyboard or whatever does not hold water. You are suggesting actually crossing the hands or arms which playing the hi-hat crossed does not do. PLUS the hi-hat is usually a lot higher than the snare, so nothing is getting in the way. A keyboard is not split onto two heights, if it was I'm sure it'd be perfectly easy.

The hands are next to eachother on the horizontal plane when playing the hi-hat and NOT CROSSED. The right stick does cross the path of the left stick YES, but that's all. It's a bit like occasionally riding the left crash cymbal. I have it pretty much right above my snare and then further back. My left hand is never in the way.. why? Because the cymbal is way up high.

Also regarding the ride cymbal, assuming there's a crash cymbal already in front of you (as said in the previous paragraph), it'd surely have to be way over to the left, further than the hats, which obviously would be uncomfortable because then you really would have to cross your hands.

There's a lot of players than can play both ways, so why do they often still play crossed if it's so uncomfortable?

EDIT: Also if it is to stick to the custom we'd all play traditional grip too..

[treebot]

"The reason more people don't play open is because more people don't play open. It's simple custom. If you think crossing your sticks or hands to do things works well, then do that when you type your reply to this. Or when you eat. Or drive. Or play ride cymbal. The fact that crossed players play open whenever they play ride proves that they, too, see the advantages of playing open. I just do it all the time, not part of the time.

If you have something that works for you, then stick to it. But if you play like everyone else, you will sound like everyone else."


no offense but this is a rather ignorant response, typing on a computer and driving are completely irrelevant to playing drums. apples to oranges, its just like people who are right handed shooting left when playing hockey, its because its something completely different and you have to do what feels right. And if playing cross handed made everyone sound the same how do we have a world of different sounding drummers... Everyone plays violin the same, do they all sound the same? your really stretching your argument for open handed playing. The reason people dont play open is because they dont want to, everyone knows about it, your not the only one in the world who has tried, your attitude is very bizarre to me. And if you didnt notice Keith Carlock plays his main ride on his left above his hi-hat. Your argument is very narrow minded, if you like it thats cool, dont tell others they are wrong or following trends. The ride on the right does not mean people see the advantage of open, it just means they play the ride on the right, I dont think in terms of only "open" or "crossed" I play whats comfortable, and will continue to do so, and improve my abilities with both hands, playing my hi-hat strictly left handed would be a huge handicap to me, I also find its very uncomfortable for my left arm, I also cant get above my cymbal as well to play the bell of the hi-hat or with the tips of my sticks as well as with my right, I find it much much more uncomfortable after prolonged playing. If you like it better thats good for you, but if your reasoning is that you dont cross your hands when you type, I believe your doing it for all the wrong reasons.

[Mark_S]

Ok, here is a pic to show that the hands are not remotely crossed (sorry about half of my face looking gormlessly at the camera). Normally I'd be even less "crossed" than this, but I had my 13" hats on and the double pedal which shifts my hi-hat further to the left.

http://ossl.co.uk/~marks/Drums/Crossed.jpg

To me this is very comfortable. I can have my hand french or german (or american) grip depending on what I'm doing and it pretty much stays where it is. If you look where my arms are, they are pretty relaxed either side of me, no reaching.

For me this works just fine. If a groove comes along where I need to learn to play open handed... I'll get an x-hat ;-) Or learn to lead that groove playing with my left hand. Simples.

[Deathmetalconga]

Your left stick is trapped under your right stick, because your sticks are crossing. Two things cannot occupy the same space at once, so one stick must be restrained under the other.

If you're OK with that (and most players are) then keep doing it. Hands or sticks, not much difference.

[Deathmetalconga]

"The reason more people don't play open is because more people don't play open. It's simple custom. If you think crossing your sticks or hands to do things works well, then do that when you type your reply to this. Or when you eat. Or drive. Or play ride cymbal. The fact that crossed players play open whenever they play ride proves that they, too, see the advantages of playing open. I just do it all the time, not part of the time.

If you have something that works for you, then stick to it. But if you play like everyone else, you will sound like everyone else."


no offense but this is a rather ignorant response, typing on a computer and driving are completely irrelevant to playing drums. apples to oranges, its just like people who are right handed shooting left when playing hockey, its because its something completely different and you have to do what feels right. And if playing cross handed made everyone sound the same how do we have a world of different sounding drummers... Everyone plays violin the same, do they all sound the same? your really stretching your argument for open handed playing. The reason people dont play open is because they dont want to, everyone knows about it, your not the only one in the world who has tried, your attitude is very bizarre to me. And if you didnt notice Keith Carlock plays his main ride on his left above his hi-hat. Your argument is very narrow minded, if you like it thats cool, dont tell others they are wrong or following trends. The ride on the right does not mean people see the advantage of open, it just means they play the ride on the right, I dont think in terms of only "open" or "crossed" I play whats comfortable, and will continue to do so, and improve my abilities with both hands, playing my hi-hat strictly left handed would be a huge handicap to me, I also find its very uncomfortable for my left arm, I also cant get above my cymbal as well to play the bell of the hi-hat or with the tips of my sticks as well as with my right, I find it much much more uncomfortable after prolonged playing. If you like it better thats good for you, but if your reasoning is that you dont cross your hands when you type, I believe your doing it for all the wrong reasons.

No offense intended, therefore none taken, at your comments that "this is a rather ignorant response," "your attitude is very bizarre to me," "Your argument is very narrow minded" and "I believe your doing it for all the wrong reasons." I happen to think your arguments are well-informed, mainstream, broad-minded and correct for the majority. I just disagree with them.

I play violin a bit and there are several different ways to play, all of them legit. In India, they sit cross-legged with the violin pointing up from their laps. Works for them. Some people play the violin left-handed.

If trapping one of your sticks or hands under the other works for you, then by all means continue to do it. Most people play in this way, which I consider to be a handicap that most drummers overcome and go on to play much, much better than I can ever possibly hope to. I trust you enjoy playing open when you are on the ride, because it is a great feeling to play open - one that I and many others enjoy whenever we sit behind the set.

Typing, driving, eating, picking apples, picking oranges and playing all other instruments (except drums) are all different tasks - but they are all tasks that people do with two hands. With two open hands. Maybe they're on to something?

[Mark_S]

Your left stick is trapped under your right stick, because your sticks are crossing. Two things cannot occupy the same space at once, so one stick must be restrained under the other.

If you're OK with that (and most players are) then keep doing it. Hands or sticks, not much difference.

But it's not really, There's about 6 inches between the two, if not more. They can exist on the same vertical plane IF the horizontal plane is different, which it is (one is low, one is high).

Okay - I DO know what you're saying; if I went for a BIG accent where the wind up just happened to be on the downstroke of hitting my hi-hats, then yes it might cause a problem, but it hasn't really come up.

The biggest limitation is getting to the toms while keeping the groove going on the hats. My hats are hi enough that I can actually get to the toms with my left hand, but it's as awkward as hell. In those cases, which again are rare FOR ME, I would either use an x-hat (I have 2 sets of hats), learn the groove open handed (if I'm using the toms a lot in a groove then it's a 2 handed groove really), or... well that's it really.

But for the amount of times I do that, I don't worry about it. It's the exception instead of the rule.

For me, the pros: leading with my dominant hand, and being able to move that groove to the toms (while still peddaling the hi-hat if need be), ride cymbal or any other part of the kit (the majority of the kit is on my right) while still keeping the back-beat on the snare with my left, outways the cons. FOR ME... at least.

It could also be argued that keeping the back-beat going during a fill is a good thing to do a lot of the time, which would mean my right hand moving from the hats to the rest of the kit on my right, while my left hand just stays on the snare, doing some nice bounce doubles between 2 and 4 or something, you know what I mean.. So FOR ME that is another pro.

As with everything, your mileage may vary. Lets just have fun hitting the damn things in our own way ;-)

[treebot]

you dont type with drumsticks, maybe play with no sticks? :) just kidding, I get why open handed has advantages, but to me the most important thing is ambidexterity, so learning all ways is the best way to play. But your argument of being trapped under the hihat doesnt work for me, because I dont feel trapped at all, and I swing my arms like crazy, the best explanation ive seen so far is Dennis Chambers talking about Billy Cobham in this thread, there are also a lot of good points of why it still has disadvantages too http://bcwtj.forumotion.com/t840-dennis-chambers-on-billy-s-open-handed-playing

but for me I only play with one floor tom and one rack, so Dennis' point about reaching for extra floor toms doesnt matter to me. And the point made in the thread I linked about when your playing the snare with your right, you have to take your hand away from the snare to crash, which isnt something I like to do, though I do crash with both hands. Practice everything, play what works

[treebot]

I forgot to mention saying your narrow minded comes across more offensive then I intended and I do apologize for that, I just don't agree with some of the comparisons, I find this discussion very interested as Billy Cobham is one of my favourite drummers, along with a long list, and I am very interested in all different styles of playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiF9jl2QHQ8

here is a cool example of Carlock rocking the ride on his left (and center and right..) but then again he's a freak.

[Odd-Arne Oseberg]

I play open handeed just for the hell of it all the time. I also play simple beats with my left BD pedal just for fun.

Is it necessary. That really depends. There are several reasons to I do it. First it`s a more creative way to get into using those limbs more, and on more important thing is that since it`s not automatic, you have to really listen to what you`re doing. Also, if I`m going through a really long practice session, which they all tend to be, I have something to do while I give those other limbs a short rest.