WFD - WORLD'S FASTEST DRUMMER

[LiquidSoul546]

World's Fastest Drummer. What do you think? Personally I think it just brings out the stereotypical drummer. It has little to do with music. But, let me here your thoughts!
peace

[finnhiggins]

World's Fastest Drummer. What do you think? Personally I think it just brings out the stereotypical drummer. It has little to do with music. But, let me here your thoughts!
peace

They'd be better off having a competition over something else they could do fast with their wrists. It would make the acronym into a palindrome, too.

[Barry]

Does everything have to be about music? I'm practicing bare-hand drumming for when the WFD comes to New York. I might win something. Prizes are good, and speed is good too. If a drummer decides to put too much roll in his music to show off his speed, that's his problem. I won't. I don't do music anyway.

[finnhiggins]

Does everything have to be about music?

Oh god no. But playing a musical instrument probably should be.

[DogBreath]

lol

. . . . . .

[RTDRUMS]

Anything to get someone playing the drums is cool by me. Mike Mangini did a clinic at the store I teach at and we billed it as "The Worlds Fastest Drummer" (for those who dont know mike ,he set the record for single stroke rolls with 1203 in 60secs. thats 20.5 hit a second. damn!!) it drew a lot of attention even from our local tv news and newspaper. I suspect that if we would have told people Mike Mangini was doing a clinic I guarantee it wouldnt have done as well. The fact that he can drum fast drew alot of attention from normal people. Also, being the worlds fastest drummer is a good credential

So I give props to the WFD, even though speed drumming has very little to do with drumming in music, it is an added challange to the instrument. And I love drumming challanges.

[LiquidSoul546]

See, that's why i hate it. It just brings that stereotypical view to drummers that all they are, are speed freaks, that don't deserve the respect of being actual musicians. That's what burns me. And no disrespect, but i heard mike mangini was cocky at clinics? true? Or is my source wrong?
peace

[finnhiggins]

See, that's why i hate it. It just brings that stereotypical view to drummers that all they are, are speed freaks, that don't deserve the respect of being actual musicians. That's what burns me. And no disrespect, but i heard mike mangini was cocky at clinics? true? Or is my source wrong?
peace

You mean more cocky than he seems on that WFD video where, after winning, he starts rabbiting on about how he was using a really hefty stick too and that everybody else was wimping out and using light ones?

[LiquidSoul546]

Haha, i didn't hear that one. But one of my friends saw him in a clinic and just said how he just tried to show off his speed the whole time, and he didn't really learn anything
peace

[RTDRUMS]

See, that's why i hate it. It just brings that stereotypical view to drummers that all they are, are speed freaks, that don't deserve the respect of being actual musicians. That's what burns me. And no disrespect, but i heard mike mangini was cocky at clinics? true? Or is my source wrong?
peace
pretty true. but the title of WFD is what helped bring people to the clinic. All that hype and he never even talked about how he goes so fast. must be personal.

[Barry]

he starts rabbiting on about how he was using a really hefty stickOn the Tonight Show, Buddy Rich said he used a thicker stick than most drummers, but his older videos don't show him with an especially thick stick. It's kind of worth mentioning. It's interesting that someone going for speed would choose a thick stick, but after reading how often some people's sticks break, it makes sense. Maybe wood is the wrong material for drumsticks.

[Elvin4ever]

This past Saturday, I saw an amazing 15 year old kid from Flint Michigan named Matt Smith easily outplay his competition at a very large drum set competition in Cuyahoga Falls Ohio. He was by far the most musical drummer of the entire event in any age category. He played in a jazz style with sensitivity, originality, dynamics...the whole thing. Then he went over to the WFD portion of this event and demolished his competitors with something like 1020 single strokes in sixty seconds. Afterwards I spoke to his father who was a Fulbright Professor of Music. He said that he believed the WFD had been good for his son because it gave him incentive to practice fundamentals. He agreed that if his kid was about nothing else than WFD there would be a problem. But suppossedly the professor kept noticing that only the better all around players were winning these WFD events anyway. He also said that Matt had just finished a second place showing at the very competitive Louie Bellson National Drum Contest. You can't do that and be just about winning WFD. So I suppose you should probably be grounded well in other things before going gung ho with worlds fastest drummer.

[AurelienPK]

Mike Mangini did a clinic at the store I teach at and we billed it as "The Worlds Fastest Drummer" (for those who dont know mike ,he set the record for single stroke rolls with 1203 in 60secs. .

I find the 1203 strokes in 60seconds hard to believe...

"Clinician Johnny Rabb earned the distinction of "World's Fastest Drummer," as recognized by the Guinness World Records, by playing 1,071 single strokes in 60 seconds on a live broadcast of VH1's Rock and Roll Record Breakers."

There is a contradiction!!
And as for the 15 year old drummer. Is he really that fast? That's nearly Rabb's speed!

I think speed isn't everything and this WFD does stereotype drummers as "fast hitting machines". Of course, speed, can be and is important but the fastest drummers are not the best ones.

[Barry]

You can see the stats of the fastest drummers at http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdchampions.htm

http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/jotanafanador.htm
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/sethdavis.htm
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/mikemangini.htm
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/johnnyrabb.htm
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/artverdi.htm
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/timwaterson.htm

There's no contradiction. Different people held the record at different times.

[AurelienPK]

do any videos exist?

[Barry]

do any videos exist?

Here's (http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Mike%20Mangini%201203%20broadband.wmv) one. See http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm for more.

[Elvin4ever]

Hi AurelienPK,

Not only did the 15 year old kid play that fast, the event was witnessed by Johnny Rabb himself who was the principal clinician at the festival. The festival coordinator then asked Rabb to come up on stage to show everyone how it was done. Rabb then proceeded to play 60 strokes slower than the kid. To Matt Smith's credit, he quickly told everyone that Rabb had not been given a chance to warm up, and that Rabb was absolutely a better and more musical percussionist than he was. This was a classy gesture for one so young. I have being seeing this Smith kid at a lot of drum events this summer. He is the real deal and he comes from a family of world class musicians. I will not be surprised at all to hear that he wins the world championships in January. Supposedly he has only been competing in WFD and set competitions since June.

[Stu_Strib]

Oh god no. But playing a musical instrument probably should be.

Who said anything about musical instruments? I thought we were all drummers! LOL!

[Freddie Freeloader]

i don't use a lot of speed in my playing, but watching these guys play is definitely very inspiring and i've been pushing myself to reach certain levels of speed and endurance.... and even though my playing style doesn't really incorporate a lot of speed, i've found my playing has improved quite a bit in the last few months..... i've been watching some mangini and donati videos and i have to say they DID have quite an impact on me.
you won't catch me listening to lots of 'chop-heavy' music very often, but when i need a reason to start working on something new, those few cds at the back of my cd cabinet definitely show me what dedication and hard work can do for your technical abilities.
there's nothing wrong with these wfd tournaments. i think its great, and exposes more people to drumming...

[jamndrummer]

Matt Smith got 1000bpm on the competition.....I posted the article.....I actually know him and his dad a bit..............two nice people.....Matt will be the fastest within 2 years is my prediciton. Matt also practices 5 -6 hours a day......must be nice to have that kind of time...enjoy it while your young....hehe

His big influences are Tony Williams and Elvin Jones....he studies them to the 'T'

[Freddie Freeloader]

i get kinda scared thinking about what people will be doing with drumming 5 years from now. especially with this whole new speed craze.....
the only way to keep up is to PRACTICE! hahaha.

[hotsauce3n]

its interesting but after about 10 minutes of watching these speed demons it gets old hearing a straight double stroke roll... id rather listen to some real drummers with an actual musical groove


also its all just physical... if someone spends enough time on building chops anyone can be the WFD so its just who wants to waste there time

[MaxRoach]

its interesting but after about 10 minutes of watching these speed demons it gets old hearing a straight double stroke roll... id rather listen to some real drummers with an actual musical groove


also its all just physical... if someone spends enough time on building chops anyone can be the WFD so its just who wants to waste there time
But if you look at it that way, what's the point of sports? If you look at the Olympics, everyone is just in it to be the fastest. It's the same deal and ultimately, it's all for fun and competition. It's not like people have CD's of single stroke rolls or anything.....it's just a neat way to make music fun and win some prizes.

[Freddie Freeloader]

also its all just physical... if someone spends enough time on building chops anyone can be the WFD so its just who wants to waste there time

you have a point there. technically, there is little you can't do if you practice enough.

[Elvin4ever]

you have a point there. technically, there is little you can't do if you practice enough.

A youngster is supposed to be working on fundamentals. Therefore if a teenager enters WFD events to become a better all around percussionist what's the problem?
You are right. Technically you CAN do anything if you practice enough. So in all due respect I must ask why most do not practice enough? Because it's hard, that's why. If it were easy everyone would do it. I just think it's kind of strange to insinuate that people who practice are lesser musicians, or that something must be innately incorrect about them. Does that make sense? John Coltrane practiced twelve hours a day. Do we put disclaimers on his albums now?

Band directors are on young drummers all the time about working in up speed in their rudimental playing. So now we get a contest out there that actually glorifies the practice of fundamentals, and people seem upset by it. Speed certainly never hurt Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Sid Catlett, Joe Morello and many other jazz greats. Now if you enter these events at age 35-40 like some of these people then I see your point.
Again I know this is a controversial issue and I respect the other opinions because there definately is another side to this. All I am saying is that maybe this contest has to be out there a little longer in order to work the bugs out. For years I begged students to practice. Now they want to.

[jamndrummer]

Hey wait a minute.....you think only young dudes should be practicing fundamentals and rudiments and entering contests such as this?? NO.....I think it would be awesome for older dudes and dudettes to keep honing their skills and entering these contests.....what does age have to do with it......please keep in mind that this event is TOTALLY separate from making music and playing in a band......I agree with 'MAXROACH' that this is a sport................your never to OLD to compete....dont sell yourself short all you older people........................I think the young dudes would love to compete with the older people....and lets face it......the older you get the more THAT IS A COP OUT for practicing...saying your to old to compete.........MY MY MY...................Come on all.................I plan on jamming until its physically impossible for me to do so................no matter how old I get....besides ......Im going to live forever so Im using up the time I have here to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE......and making music...:)

[DogBreath]

also its all just physical... if someone spends enough time on building chops anyone can be the WFD so its just who wants to waste there time

It's just physical? So are the Olympics, and the Tour de France, and any other "just physical" competition that you care to mention. But still someone is the best. Just because an average person practices a physical ability every day doesn't mean that he will become able to compete with other people who have world-class physical skills.



And of course it gets boring to watch. It’s boring to watch people lifts weights over and over, and it’s boring to watch grown men drive cars in a big oval. Some people like competition. Nothing wrong with that.

[Scatman]

music and speed should be applied together. You guys separate music from speed and your wrong. Look at Art Tatum or any technical wizard on guitar or piano or any instrument. They have the speed to go up and down that board at any tempo Speed should be applied to music on all instruments Buddy applied speed to musicality as well as Morello or Chambers

[DogBreath]

You guys separate music from speed and your wrong.

lol. Well I guess it's settled then.

[MaxRoach]

[color=black]It's just physical? So are the Olympics
I already said that btw :P

[DogBreath]

Oh. Sorry for agreeing with you.

...?

[MaxRoach]

:P
IM JUST JOKING WOW !
JEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZ....and there's no agreeing allowed on this forum sorry.

[finnhiggins]

lol. Well I guess it's settled then.

How exactly you go about separating speed and music from your wrong is another question. You'd have to find where exactly your "wrong" is in order to separate the music and speed from it. It would be advisible to do this in a private location to avoid embarassment.

[Speedy]

I read in Modern Drummer that Ronald Spagnardi said "What next? An award for the guy who can set up and break down his gear the fastest?" I always laugh when I read or hear that.

[DogBreath]

How exactly you go about separating speed and music from your wrong is another question. You'd have to find where exactly your "wrong" is in order to separate the music and speed from it. It would be advisible to do this in a private location to avoid embarassment.

Sorry. I'll lock the door next time.

=-)

[finnhiggins]

I read in Modern Drummer that Ronald Spagnardi said "What next? An award for the guy who can set up and break down his gear the fastest?" I always laugh when I read or hear that.

That actually strikes me as being a lot more practical. I've had to do a couple of gigs with five minute setup and breakdown allowances, it was absolute hell.

[DogBreath]

I think there should be a relay, like a team competition. A musician stands on stage where his roadie can see him. As soon as the musician sees a girl in the audience that he likes, the judge starts timing. The musician has to signal the roadie, and the roadie has to herd the girl backstage through a door.

[finnhiggins]

As soon as the musician sees a girl in the audience that he likes, the judge starts timing.

Uuh... I don't even want to know how you're going to sort out a reliable way of working out exactly when that particular moment is.

[DogBreath]

Some details will need to be worked out. I'm just trying to think of more practical competitions.

[jamsjr44]

WFD...doesn't interest me one bit. To be honest.

[finnhiggins]

Some details will need to be worked out. I'm just trying to think of more practical competitions.

Actually, returning from the drum kit for a second it seems there's a much more useful contest you could have:

Who can play the first exercise from "The New Breed" (16th notes in unison with both hands, reading with the feet in 16th notes) at the highest tempo all the way through the last page of reading without making any mistakes?

That'd at least require slightly more practical drumming skills (like reading, control and co-ordination) than WFD would in just counting hits on a pad. You could do it on electronic drums and have a computer analyse the MIDI file for timing errors outside a certain tolerance afterwards.

I mean, if you're going to compete on chops, why restrict it to fast strokes? Why not make it a 4-limbed thing?

[mikkeydee]

I mean, if you're going to compete on chops, why restrict it to fast strokes? Why not make it a 4-limbed thing?

It's just like an olympics, 100 meter is always more important than gymnastics.

[Freddie Freeloader]

A youngster is supposed to be working on fundamentals. Therefore if a teenager enters WFD events to become a better all around percussionist what's the problem?
You are right. Technically you CAN do anything if you practice enough. So in all due respect I must ask why most do not practice enough? Because it's hard, that's why. If it were easy everyone would do it. I just think it's kind of strange to insinuate that people who practice are lesser musicians, or that something must be innately incorrect about them. Does that make sense? John Coltrane practiced twelve hours a day. Do we put disclaimers on his albums now?

Band directors are on young drummers all the time about working in up speed in their rudimental playing. So now we get a contest out there that actually glorifies the practice of fundamentals, and people seem upset by it. Speed certainly never hurt Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Sid Catlett, Joe Morello and many other jazz greats. Now if you enter these events at age 35-40 like some of these people then I see your point.
Again I know this is a controversial issue and I respect the other opinions because there definately is another side to this. All I am saying is that maybe this contest has to be out there a little longer in order to work the bugs out. For years I begged students to practice. Now they want to.

whoa dude.... you didn't read my other posts. i said the wfd is a good idea to get more people interested in drumming. yes, more youngsters will spend time working on fundamentals.

now, i'm contradicting myself to an extent : ok, so people will learn to play their rudiments.... but playing your rudiments at ridiculous tempos doesn't qualify as a fundamental as such. sure, its cool, but the wfd tournament, like other people have already said, is not unlike a sports event like the olympics.
you don't need to be able to play really fast to be a good drummer. don't get me wrong, i think its a good idea for some drummers looking for a challenge or maybe even some competition. it definitely encourages people to push themselves, but it has little to do with music on the whole.
and you mentioned buddy rich and joe morello and louie bellson and their fast hands.... i'm quite sure they weren't doing single strokes in the neighbourhood of 1070 beats per minute. :)

[Scatman]

Nobody was as fast and musical as Buddy Rich Buddy could put Art Verdi and Mike Mangini and all the WFD guys in his back pocket with some speed to spare They say wasn't as musical as Krupa I say boulder dash

[Elvin4ever]

Points well taken Freddie F... Except I kind of have a feeling that Buddy Rich was playing MUCH faster single strokes than 1070 or even 1200.

I probably saw him a hundred times when he was alive and I (personal opinion) think he was the fastest (and most musical) drummer who ever lived. I don't think ANY of the new guys are in his league. Just mentioning the single stroke parameters that are the highlight of WFD, I always think back on Rich's famous single stroke snare break on Love For Sale. That thing sounded like running water, and it was pretty musical too.

Just wondering...what's the gig scene like in Calcutta India?

[Freddie Freeloader]

Points well taken Freddie F... Except I kind of have a feeling that Buddy Rich was playing MUCH faster single strokes than 1070 or even 1200.

I probably saw him a hundred times when he was alive and I (personal opinion) think he was the fastest (and most musical) drummer who ever lived. I don't think ANY of the new guys are in his league. Just mentioning the single stroke parameters that are the highlight of WFD, I always think back on Rich's famous single stroke snare break on Love For Sale. That thing sounded like running water, and it was pretty musical too.

Just wondering...what's the gig scene like in Calcutta India?

hey man, i've seen a bunch of buddy rich videos and concerts, and his hands certainly didn't look like they were playing at those speeds.... you have to see clips of guys like mangini and rabb to know what i'm talking about. but yes, that certainly doesn't take ANYTHING away from buddy, because he was and always will be the king. he had everything... speed, technique, timing, and the taste!

the gig scene in calcutta sucks, and i'm moving out of here soon.
:p

[toteman2]

You can see video of Mangini breaking 1200 on the WFD webpage...I think he hit 1203 in 60 seconds...You really can't see that well, but you can hear it, and the speed he is going at is just totally insane...It takes alot out of him too...Not to take anything away from Buddy, but I never heard anyone play that fast...

[Scatman]

Buddy had a talent nobody could match The WFD has no drummer that can come close to this giant of a drummer in speed Johnny Rabb Mike Mangini or Art Verdi could not come close to the the speed Buddy had I saw videos of Mike Mangini breaking records and videos of Art Verdi's video stuff of his left hand from his site Buddy's left hand was the best

[Henry II]

. . . But suppossedly the professor kept noticing that only the better all around players were winning these WFD events anyway. . . .

Mmmmm! I haven't seen Vinnie Colaiuta, Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd, Dennis Chambers, Billy Cobham, Jack DeJohnette, Peter Erskine, David Garibaldi, Jeff "Tain" Watts, Louis Nash, Harvey Mason, Air Hoenig, Steve Hass, Al Foster, or any of the truly "great" drummers playing in WFD competitions. And, with the exception of possibly Vinnie and Dennis, I doubt any of these drummers could break 1,000 strokes per minute.

PS: BTW, the worlds probable fastest drummer, who also has never competed in a WFD competition, is probably Danny Gottlieb. He also happens to be a top tier jazz drummer in the same league as the drummers mentioned above. FYI, DG's daily warmup includes alternating 16th notes (16 on a hand) at 170bpm - FOR 1/2 TO 1 HOUR PER DAY. He also plays paradiddles at 300bpm. Check him out.

[Henry II]

Buddy had a talent nobody could match The WFD has no drummer that can come close to this giant of a drummer in speed Johnny Rabb Mike Mangini or Art Verdi could not come close to the the speed Buddy had I saw videos of Mike Mangini breaking records and videos of Art Verdi's video stuff of his left hand from his site Buddy's left hand was the best

I don't know if Buddy could have maintained that speed for a full minute. But, if he had worked on it he could have. Check out the 4 bar single stroke solo on Buddy's "Love for Sale." He playes 16th note triplets at about 240bpm. That's a rate of about 1,440 bpm for a short burst. The other issue is that Buddy could do it with a lot of volume. These WFD winners are playing at ppp with the sticks less than an inch off the pad.

But, what sets BR apart is that he was the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit. Many non-drummers, or uneducated drummers think of BR as being purely a show drummer. Nothing could be further from the truth. He was an innovator and a musical genius. His phenominal musical phrasing is both timeless and unmatched in the history of drumming, and he is the most imitated drummer in history, with the possible exception of Steve Gadd, who BR (not known to be generous with praise) said was his favorite drummer.

[Barry]

...he is the most imitated drummer in history, with the possible exception of Steve Gadd, who BR (not known to be generous with praise) said was his favorite drummer.I just found out where that little intro to some drummerworld clips comes from. http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Steve_Gaddslowmotion.html

[AurelienPK]

Buddy had a talent nobody could match The WFD has no drummer that can come close to this giant of a drummer in speed Johnny Rabb Mike Mangini or Art Verdi could not come close to the the speed Buddy had I saw videos of Mike Mangini breaking records and videos of Art Verdi's video stuff of his left hand from his site Buddy's left hand was the best


I fully agree. And OF COURSE that Buddy could have done it for a minute!! I mean, it's Buddy Rich! A minute is nothing for him. He was very endurant. There is a video on his drummerworld page (it is cut actually) of his famous single strokes were he starts off verrry slowly and builds up to incredible speed.

[Barry]

I don't think I've ever seen a video of someone drumming with one hand faster than I could, but I can't do it for long. My top right-hand speed is equal to Joe Morello's speed at :39 here (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jomorello.mov). But I can't keep it up for much longer than Joe does in that clip.

I agree with Henry II. Buddy would have to work on it, then who knows, but if every drummer practiced speed for hours a day, the fastest might be someone we never heard of.

[Bernhard]

I don't know if Buddy could have maintained that speed for a full minute. But, if he had worked on it he could have. Check out the 4 bar single stroke solo on Buddy's "Love for Sale." He playes 16th note triplets at about 240bpm. That's a rate of about 1,440 bpm for a short burst. The other issue is that Buddy could do it with a lot of volume. These WFD winners are playing at ppp with the sticks less than an inch off the pad.


Here it is - the clip:

[Lambo]

But, if he had worked on it he could have. I don't think he would have had to.

[DogBreath]

More WFD records for Mike Mangini:

Singles with the hands - 1247
Singles for the feet endurance 5 minutes - 4,555
Singles for the feet endurance 15 minutes - 13,222

Those feet records come out to an average speed of 227bpm 16ths for 5 mins, and 220 16ths for 15 mins.

=-)

[Bonzo]

WOW! I really don't see what all the fuss is about here. SPEED is important in drumming. ENDURANCE is important in drumming. COORDINATION is important in drumming. TECHNIQUE is important in drumming. If you're a great drummer, you have all of those attributes, not just one or two. Look at it this way. Drummers who have the speed to play as fast as Mangini, or Rabb or Buddy Rich, have had to put in hour after hour to get that speed. Now what happens when you practice for hours on end? Yes, your speed will increase, but so will your coordination, endurance and technique. Those four things all go hand in hand. It seems impossible to me to get to near-record speeds without developing some pretty solid all-around chops.

Another thing I've noticed in all my years of drumming, and one that particularly bugs me, is that many drummers who can't play fast, don't like fast drummers or don't "need speed". Drummers that aren't that technically sound, don't like flashy drummers and "like to keep it simple". In other words, I see alot of the guys who can't do certain things, bashing that aspect as unimportant to drumming. Admit it. We've all likely said things like that at some point in our drumming careers when we realized we weren't that good. It's only those of us who learn to take drumming seriously in our lives who find out that every aspect of drumming is equally important, including speed. And frankly, there's nothing sweeter to me than a guy who can rip single strokes on a snare drum while making it sound like a closed roll, punctuating around the toms. That to me, is someone who has worked on their chops.

The bottom line here? Take WFD for what it is. FUN!!! That's all it is about. Good natured fun competition amongst other drummers. If you're not a fast drummer, who cares? But there probably aren;t guys lining up to bash your playing. Likewise, why is everybody so adamant about bashing WFD? You're taking it WAY too seriously.

[toteman2]

I stick by my earlier comments..I've been exposed to alot of drummers in my life..The works from almost everyone on this site...I have never heard anyone play singles as fast as Mangini does in the 1203 clip...It doesn't even sound real...The reason they sound so soft is because there is really no other possible way to play them that fast with bringing the sticks up higher...

[K!lly]

I was thinkig about Buddy Rich... and I think he's going far away the 1200bpm in double strokes on that video: http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/buddyrichsticktrick.html at he end..
and even it sounds like a buzz-roll, and don't think he's doing sush thing...
its a true double stroke roll.....

[AurelienPK]

That video is truely amazing. Not only the speed and technique, but just the music that comes out of his playing, the way he phrases his solos.
Beautiful.

[Scatman]

Since Drumming began drummers worked on speed. What's wrong with that? I'm a 850 hits a minute man but I'm not jealous of the guy that can do 1050

[Henry II]

Here it is - the clip:

That's it! And BR does it with some major volume.

[hotsauce3n]

[color=black]It's just physical? So are the Olympics, and the Tour de France, and any other "just physical" competition that you care to mention. But still someone is the best.
]


Yes, i do think that WFD is just physical, and someone is the best because they practice more than the next person, and i think your average joe can become the WFD, most guys who enter modern drummerworld are probably your average joes who have worked up there speed from uncountable hours of practice...yes i would love to have that speed it would be a great asset, but that is not why i play music, that is not about groove or fun to me...sports and music are completely different to me(yet share some of the same characteristics)

[hotsauce3n]

The buddy rich video with the speed is great, he phrases his solo great with all those doublue strokes and broken doubles, that still has groove to me, but sitting listening to someone try to break 1000 bpm has nothing that really interests me other than the ability

[Doom]

The way I see it is speed is one part of drumming, like every part it should be explored so I see absolutely no harm in competitions based on it.
For people who only want to look at groove or musicallity, they can do just that rather than trying to stop other peoples enjoyment of things they dont appreciate.

[Elvin4ever]

The way I see it is speed is one part of drumming, like every part it should be explored so I see absolutely no harm in competitions based on it.
For people who only want to look at groove or musicallity, they can do just that rather than trying to stop other peoples enjoyment of things they dont appreciate.


Your comments sum up this debate very well.

[Smoky_McPot]

Everyone is bashing Rabb and Mangini.
What is wrong with these two drummers ability around the drumkit -
here is a link to Mangini's web page where you can watch a drum solo.
http://www.mikemangini.com/MMmm/mm2004.html
Videos > Media > Videos
Drum Solo - Ultra Zone Tour (1999)

Is that speed? Is that technique? Is that coordination?
I think every one of the drummers mentioned on this thread are all great players.
I cant see why this is a problem for people - as mentioned above in the forum,
Its mainly for fun, so why are you against it?

[jamndrummer]

Is that speed? Is that technique? Is that coordination?
I think every one of the drummers mentioned on this thread are all great players.
I cant see why this is a problem for people - as mentioned above in the forum,
Its mainly for fun, so why are you against it?

I agree, Matt Smith who is only 15 years old, has been getting contacts from WFD Management regarding his speed. He may be listed as the worlds faster drummer under 16years of age. And Ive seen Matt play, he is a very well rounded great young player. His father Tom is a professional musician and a well respected man. Just check out his credentials.
http://www.thsmith.com/

Their family is a very strong musical family and keep things into perspective. They are holding possibly the 2nd largestes WFD in the U.S this November. Most likely I will go if not to watch, but maybe enter myself. Im no where near the fastest but it would be fun to try.


MOTT COLLEGE TO SPONSOR WFD COMPETITION
It was announced today that the Michigan State World's Fastest Drummer Competition, will be held Saturday, November 12 on the campus of Mott College, in Flint. "We are 99% certain the event will be televised, and are hoping to present a large, high profile event second only to the world championships themselves," said the school's Director of Instrumental Music Tom Smith. "I have studied these events closely over the past three months, and feel we can make this one among the most competitive. We strongly encourage the participation of previous winners." Further details will be supplied at a later date as details take shape.

[eastcoastdrummer90210]

I've heard many different opinions concerning the WFD (The Worlds Fastest Drummer Competition), which has created "drumming as a sport". I'd like to hear what other would have to say about this.

For more information, check out www.extremesportdrumming.com

[Scatman]

Drumming is a very physical instrument Dog Breath! Of course it's physical! Your arms and legs are always moving. What do you mean it's phyiscal? the wfd covers that part of drumming.What's wrong with that?

[toteman2]

i thought this was an interesting opinion i found regaurding the WFD competitions...It's buy Art Verdi...I thought it would shed some light on what the purpose of the WFD is, and why practice and technique matters so much...I had to fit it in 2 post because it was too long...

Art Verdi on the WFD



"At this time, I would like to give my personal opinions on the Drumometer and WFD competitions and their importance in developing great techniques for drummers.

Early in my drumming career, I studied for a while and then had a lull where I developed a bad habit of using my wrists instead of letting the sticks. I went to Carl Wolf who teaches the "Billy Gladstone Technique". This technique lets the stick do half the work by controlling the rebound. Carl was taught this technique by Joe Morello who was taught by Billy Gladstone. Carl showed me a way of developing technique by playing different kinds of patterns using the metronome. A favorite of Carl and his students was to play triplets with the left hand on the metronome. Carl put me on the metronome on my first lesson and I was at the 152 mark. The exercise was based on doing 100 bars without stopping. Because I was holding the sticks too tight and only using my wrist, my score was low. That’s when he showed me the rebound technique. I went home and "woodsheded" this all week long. The following lesson Carl was shocked. I went from a 152 to a 168, because I let the stick do half the work for me. In "The Stick Control Book" it says, "do each exercise 20 times without stopping." Of course, these exercises are not musical, but they are necessary for every drummer to practice to develop technique.

In Carl Wolf’s store we kind of had a WFD type of thing going. Every week I would go into the store and the students or Carl would be talking about who did 176 on the metronome with his left hand for 5 bars or whatnot. In those days I guess you could have called it, "Fastest Drummer in Carl's Store", or "FDCS." Guys like Ron Spagnardi (Chief Editor, Modern Drummer Magazine) and myself used to "woodshed" what we learned from Carl and would go to a gig and do more in "musical" ways during each performance because of the practicing we did with the metronome.

I went to a Manhattan jazz club in the late 60's and one of Carl's former students John Dentz was on the stand playing with Bill Evans. We started talking about the metronome, left hand exercises, technique and Carl's store. He told me how many unmusical repetitions he would do at home. He went on the stand and "swung his ass off" and played some "musical" technical fills that he wouldn't have been able to do without these exercises. If the people that criticize the WFD heard John Dentz, a great jazz drummer, talking about speed, they would have been criticizing him as well. I believe that no matter how good a drummer plays and swings, if his technique gets better it will reflect in his musical ability. The only practice method is the "unmusical" way of repetitious exercises.

I would bet almost every young drummer in the WFD rankings works out on Jazz and Rock when practicing. I think the incentive the Drumometer and WFD competitions have helped them to be able to play those up-tempo Rock pieces easier, because they have better technique. Those who criticize the WFD and speed playing describe the drummers in high rankings for just playing single strokes on a pad and not wanting to do anything else in their practice sessions. That is absolutely ridiculous. That is like a trumpet player practicing with his mouthpiece all day without putting it into the horn.

The two owners of the WFD, Boo McAfee and Craig Alan, are great, soulful, studio drummers in Nashville. They have recorded behind many great names. The Nashville Percussion Institute owned by Boo McAfee had a lot of named drummers teaching there. Jim Chapin, Kenny Aronoff, Paul Liem, Eddie Bayers, just to name a few, were all associated with the Drumometer. It is a shame that Craig and Boo have given us such a great tool and some drummers in the industry have put it down. What is worse is that some of these same drummers have practiced many hours "unmusically" doing single stroke rolls all day long. I know, because, I practiced with some of them. If the Drumometer came out in the early 60's I'll bet Carl Wolf would have been one of the first drummers to purchase one, and would have encouraged his students to do the same.

Recently, I was in a club and watched a young drummer. He made the group better by playing great fills around the drums. The last time I saw him there was something missing. I asked him why he was holding back and he told me it wasn't "musical." He was being brain washed by these message boards, magazine articles, and people in the industry saying, "speed is not good" and you have to be "musical." He changed his style to his own demise. He became very self-conscience about doing what he does best. Some drummers keep saying, the WFD is hurting young drum students by teaching them speed importance. Ironically, all great drummers have concentrated somewhat on speed techniques. The drummers that disagree don't realize how much damage they are causing to the drumming world. Speed has always been a part of learning any instrument. Art Tatum, a great pianist, is another great example. He had such great technique because he would practice so many boring speed exercises and scales. It's not just drummers that have to do this. Speed techniques are a factor in all instruments.

A friend wrote an email to Ron Spagnardi about the WFD and myself, comparing sports to drumming. He wrote, "Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were great team players but got involved in homerun competitions on the side. They called it The Home Run Derby. Isn’t that the same as the WFD? The WFD competition is nothing more than drummers playing single stroke rolls as fast as they can. Essentially, this is the same thing as practicing this exercise with friendly competition mixed in. The Drumometer is nothing more than a tool designed to help drummers, and could be compared to the metronome. It measures your speed in order to gauge your progress.

Louie Bellson said in an issue of Modern Drummer, "Joe Morello and Vinnie Colaiuta are the most devoted practicers he has ever seen." I'm sure they both spent many hours playing single stroke rolls to a metronome, and then probably challenged themselves to play higher numbers. This is the only way to improve your technique. It's a shame to stay on the same number if you can get your hands to play faster. What if a person walked into Joe's room while he was playing these fast single-strokes and told him that what he is doing has nothing to do with music? What would Joe say to the person? I think I know what he would say. He probably would tell him that he's developing his technique to apply it to the drums musically and, playing single strokes is the best way to accomplish this. Practicing single stroke rolls for so many hours is one thing that helped him go on to such a great career. That is what young drummers are doing with the Drumometer. The WFD made it more fun by creating a little friendly competition. They are actually doing the same exact thing Joe was doing 30 years ago with a metronome.

The name "Sport Drumming" is what throws most people off. Young drummers are playing a rudiment that experienced drummers know are necessary. As they compete they develop their technique. I don't care if a kid has speed or not. Either the kid has a "feel" or he doesn't. Have you ever seen a drummer not swing and also have bad technique? Competing in something like this can only make a drummer better. Tony Royster Jr. is a perfect example. I heard that he practices with a Drumometer. I saw him a few times and he has a wonderful feel. The ideas that he has now are very good, and I think that using the Drumometer is going to help him come up with greater and more exciting ideas.

Modern Drummer was on the right track when it published the article "And The Winner Is." Every drummer in the WFD rankings is a winner, because they have improved their technique compared to what it was when they first got into the rankings. There are a lot of drummers that haven't improved their hands in years. I went into a club one Friday night and the place was jammed. When I saw the owner I complimented him on what a great night he was having. He told me that no one was drinking and it only appeared to look like he was doing well. He said “the bottom line is, when the cash register isn't going ch-ching, what good are all these people?" It's the same way with the drums. A drummer can have great reading ability, great ideas, and great technique, but if the stick on that ride cymbal is going ding-ding-da-ding-ding-da-ding and it isn't swinging, forget it.

A young drummer taking lessons and listening to modern rock or jazz groups should not be discouraged with negativity for wanting to increase his speed capabilities with the use of a Drumometer. The WFD is about developing the skills to play certain rudiments better. It encourages these kids to develop their "chops" to a further degree and nothing more. Let's get the words "Sports" and "Athletic" and throw it out the window. I'm not siding with anybody as I'm writing this. I just feel that the WFD and the Drumometer are helping young drummers develop to be better drummers. There are so many young great drummers out there such as Mike Portnoy, Travis Barker, and Flo Mournier. These guys are playing very complicated technical patterns and have such great technique that the average young drummer couldn't possibly keep up with them. The WFD is helping them to do just that."

[toteman2]

here is the rest...

"People that say WFD is not musical are correct. There's no band when a drummer is in competition. There's just a pad and a Drumometer. There is no band or music when practicing with a metronome either. That means when practicing these rudiments drummers are not playing "musically" at all. All drummers try to get their single stroke roll down as fast as possible. In Joe Morello's "Master Studies" he states, "If you're doing sixteenth notes on a metronome at 270 and the next day you can't do it slow it down. Isn't this clocking a single stroke roll?" Every drummer including the great ones have been clocking their single strokes most of their drumming lives. The Drumometer gives drummers a better idea of where they are and how much progress they are making. The WFD competition is encouraging drummers to play a better single stroke roll using friendly competition as a motivator. The WFD drummers are doing exactly what every drummer does every time they practice rudiments on a pad.

I wonder about drummers that say they don't want to play fast, only musically. Every increase in technique helps drummers play better musically.

I was watching Mel Lewis do a solo one night at The Village Vanguard in New York City. He wanted to try something but held back. He looked up and smiled as if to say, "I better not." If he had just a little more technique he probably would have made it. I believe that no matter how great a drummer plays he's limited to his ideas and technique. The more technique he has the more ideas he can play. That's why Buddy Rich had so many ideas. His technique with his hands and feet were the answer."

[finnhiggins]

I was watching Mel Lewis do a solo one night at The Village Vanguard in New York City. He wanted to try something but held back. He looked up and smiled as if to say, "I better not." If he had just a little more technique he probably would have made it. I believe that no matter how great a drummer plays he's limited to his ideas and technique. The more technique he has the more ideas he can play. That's why Buddy Rich had so many ideas. His technique with his hands and feet were the answer."

You see, I read all of this. He spends the whole time praising people like Buddy Rich, Portnoy, Flo Mournier, Travis Barker while somehow suggesting than other drummers who don't play fast are somehow inferior and could do better if they worked more on technique. Personally, all of those drummers impress me to some extent (apart from Mike Portnoy, but that's another issue) but not as musicians (aside from Buddy Rich when he stops playing solos and just plays time). Then at the end he asserts that Buddy Rich had a lot of ideas because he had fast hands and feet - that technique is the source of great ideas.

Doubtful.

I mean, how do you explain somebody like Matt Chamberlain? Sure, he's got great chops. But the key thing that separates him from other drummers - and gets him a lot of work - is that he also has great ideas, great tone and a very original and grooving approach to time playing. He doesn't play fast unless the rest of the song is fast. He is the drummer Art Verdi describes who "holds himself back" from his full spread of technique when playing, and he's about 100x better for it.

I agree with Art that proper technique is important and useful. I work pretty hard on that, and yes I use a metronome and clock myself with it. You just won't see me doing that stuff on a stage. I disagree with him that technique automatically conveys merit. Anybody can get technique. That's just practice. The difference between an average drummer and a great drummer is how well that technique gets deployed musically, and practicing fast single strokes quite simply does not develop that skill whatsoever. It's like spending decades getting the strongest little finger that any human has ever had. Sure, you can win in a pinky-wrestling match should some weirdo care to start one. But it's not going to develop anything else particularly useful.

His whole argument basically reduces to "Look! All these great drummers used metronomes! Therefore you're all hypocrites for hating WFD!". He's missing the point. Those great drummers left their metronomes behind when they went out, forgot all the technique licks that they were working on and just played from the heart and played with feel. Technique helped give them the control to do that without fighting with the sticks. WFD is an abomination for me not because it involves using a metronome and clocking yourself, but because it removes music from the equation entirely in favour of pure speed competition. Which as far as I'm concerned is just missing the point on a grand scale. If you want to inspire people to use a metronome and practice, go do some gigs and play some great music in front of people. If the drummers in the audience are impressed, they'll come up and ask how you did it. Then you can talk about metronomes. WFD is just creepy.

[toteman2]

His whole argument basically reduces to "Look! All these great drummers used metronomes! Therefore you're all hypocrites for hating WFD!". He's missing the point.

actually i thought the argument reduces to this...

"I wonder about drummers that say they don't want to play fast, only musically. Every increase in technique helps drummers play better musically." -Art Verdi...

Pehaps you missed the point...

[JohnMunsey]

Since this is about WFD and I saw Buddy mentioned, I just want to state that a comment by Buddy Rich is why the thought of inventing the drumometer was born.

This guy Barret Deems claimed he was fastest. And, in Buddy's wisdom, Buddy said, "Oh yea, what machine measured that?"

Interesting.

Those WFD guys are very knowledgeable about hand technique, ergonomics, endurance, speed - all that stuff. Mangini, Verdi, Jotan, Tiger Bill, these guys have good advice.

[finnhiggins]

"I wonder about drummers that say they don't want to play fast, only musically. Every increase in technique helps drummers play better musically." -Art Verdi...

Pehaps you missed the point...

"I wonder about drivers that say they don't want to drive fast, only safely. Every small increase in engine capacity helps drivers stay safe on the road".

Same drill, folks. Yes, every now and again as a driver there's a situation where you can get yourself out of it with a 3L engine rather than a 1.5, but they're sufficiently few and far between that once you get above a certain engine capacity that will actually move your car in a relatively nimble manner you don't need to worry about that kind of stuff anymore. You'd be better off making sure you have good control and you're watching the road if you care about safety rather than sheer speed.

Which, funny enough, is why driver training and road safety organisations focus on these aspects, rather than advocating everybody gets a bigger engine. Because the solution isn't that simple - increase the size of the engine, increase the temptation to go burn rubber - which then reduces safety, even though there is a core potential in a larger engine which could assist a good driver in avoiding an accident.

Coming back from the world of analogy, that's my view of technique on the drums. If you have no technique then playing music is going to be about as possible as driving a car with no engine - just about possible, as long as it's downhill all the way. But once you clear a certain threshhold of technique there's really little point in developing it further before exploring the thousands of hours of work you can put in to better understanding different styles of music, different groove feels, different approaches to sound... Even techniques on different percussion instruments like hand drums. That stuff makes a much bigger difference to the music you can play than an extra 20bpm of single stroke roll chops would.

I saw Max Roach play in London a few years ago. He was obviously feeling his age - it took him about five minutes to walk across the stage and sit down at his drums. But even though he was very stiff physically and his hands were nothing on what they used to be, he was still a very musical drummer when he played. Art Verdi would, seemingly, have me believe that he's now a lesser drummer because his technique is clearly declining with age and that limits his musical options. I don't buy that for a second, personally I enjoyed watching him more than I did Dave Weckl around the same time - a young guy who's arguably at the peak of his technique. Sure, there's a point where you get so stiff and out of control of your limbs that it doesn't matter how good your musical mind is because you can't play anymore. But as long as you're above the playing threshhold then musicality comes from your depth of musical knowledge, not your depth of technical knowledge.

[theduke86]

I appreciate what those guys in the WFD bring to the table. I'd love single strokes like Art Verdi. Unfortunately WFD is bringing entirely new deficient attitudes to modern drumming to many young players. Art's argument is "Speed can't hurt". Yes Art. Yes it can. If you want to work 32nd notes in cascading tom rolls around the kit for ten minutes at a time, you won't get hired. Not to say things like licks and chops and independences with all these concepts are bad things- I believe they're essiential. WFD cerebralizes drumming far too much for my liking. You have to understand the left brain concept as well as creativity and groove, but WFD can be very unhealthy. If you want a different challenge to do something different fine, otherwise, I question the mind space of some WFD guys. For me, music doesn't involve ego... There's something inherently unhealthy about deducing any musical discipline to a competition. WFD is missing the point.
I'll leave you with the words of Joe Morello from Master Studies:
"Technique for the sake of technique is pointless. Musical mastery of these concepts is essiential."

[JohnMunsey]

I appreciate what those guys in the WFD bring to the table. I'd love single strokes like Art Verdi. Unfortunately WFD is bringing entirely new deficient attitudes to modern drumming to many young players. Art's argument is "Speed can't hurt". Yes Art. Yes it can. If you want to work 32nd notes in cascading tom rolls around the kit for ten minutes at a time, you won't get hired. Not to say things like licks and chops and independences with all these concepts are bad things- I believe they're essiential. WFD cerebralizes drumming far too much for my liking. You have to understand the left brain concept as well as creativity and groove, but WFD can be very unhealthy. If you want a different challenge to do something different fine, otherwise, I question the mind space of some WFD guys. For me, music doesn't involve ego... There's something inherently unhealthy about deducing any musical discipline to a competition. WFD is missing the point.
I'll leave you with the words of Joe Morello from Master Studies:
"Technique for the sake of technique is pointless. Musical mastery of these concepts is essiential."

I don't train for WFD but I think it's a fun thing.

None of the WFD guys are hurt. Most of them even have gigs with some big names. I'm sure Jotan doesnt do "32nd notes in cascading tom rolls around the kit for ten minutes at a time" when playing with Ricky Martin or Britney Spears. Nor would Mangini when playing with Vai, Steven Tyler, etc.

Trying to learn about and push human potential isnt unhealthy.

As for ego, those guys are all friendly with each other.

Competition is in music by the way! Just like all these top 10, 20, 50, you name it.

[finnhiggins]

I'm sure Jotan doesnt do "32nd notes in cascading tom rolls around the kit for ten minutes at a time" when playing with Ricky Martin or Britney Spears. Nor would Mangini when playing with Vai, Steven Tyler, etc.


You mean... they might be playing something else they practiced that - good lord - wasn't that technically demanding? You mean, they might have some skill other than technique that gets them hired? You mean... they might have practiced something other than technique in a focused way? Great! That's what we're hitting at here. WFD inspires young drummers. To practice technique. The reason we're arguing this is unhealthy for these young drummers is that it inspires them to practice in an unbalanced, technique-focused way which can result in unbalanced, technique-focused drumming.

You learn technique by studying technique. You learn music by studying music. A good practice routine should include focus on both. And a good source of inspiration should include inspiration to focus on both. By that criteria, WFD is not a good source of inspiration for young drummers.

[JohnMunsey]

You mean, they might have some skill other than technique that gets them hired? You mean... they might have practiced something other than technique in a focused way? Great! That's what we're hitting at here..... By that criteria, WFD is not a good source of inspiration for young drummers.

Ok, so you acknowledged that the WFD guys practiced things to get them hired--- but then WFD is not a good source of inspiration for young drummers!

I'll meet you half way - JUST WFD is not a good source for getting work, but the WFD guys are a source of inspiration since they 1) have amazing technique and 2) get good musical-based work

[JohnMunsey]

Was it me, or was this guy getting sarcastic???

Must have hit a nerve

I just reviewed his past posts, and he makes a statement that Art Verdi would belittle Max Roach cause he's older and his technique might wane. This is a ludicrous statement. He is making a judgment just because someone has insane technique. Remember, the old statment, Dont assume.

[theduke86]

John- I'm not disputing that the high level WFD guys are without the ego. I am well aware that people such as Mike Mangini, Johnny Rabb and such play great gigs. My main point was that I am concerned about attitudes in young drummers who are learning ONLY a technique based approach to the drums! And many are because of things like WFD. Joining WFD can be a healthy fun thing if your head is on right- I think if I were to join WFD, two things would happen.
a) I'd get smoked. Singles at 240 beats per minute get smoked at that level.
b) My technique would certainly improve.
But what's the point? Technique is the vehicle for music... not visa versa.
edit: As for competition... I have learned that the greatest and coolest cats around don't compete. Does Brian Blade compete with Bill Stewart or Tain Watts? Competition is definetly negative- music is art after all. I like to make a lot of money from music, so I suppose I would be kidding myself if I said it wasn't. But I would NEVER practice like it was an athletic competition. I played football in high school and my first year of college. That mindset is DEFINETLY not good for creative endeavors like music.

[Scatman]

The Modern Drummer Magazine says guys like Art Verdi and Mike Mangini help many drummers to improve their technique as applied to playing their instrument properly

[jangus]

This past Saturday, I saw an amazing 15 year old kid from Flint Michigan named Matt Smith .


Oh man I was at a jazz band summer camp in Flint at Mott a couple months ago and I saw that guy there. I didnt know it was him until a couple weeks ago.

I heard he practices 5 or 6 hours a day, just single strokes.

[Scatman]

This kid holds the fastest record for drummers under 18?

[Elvin4ever]

According to a person I know who participates at WFD his record is for someone 16 or under. It is like a new junior category that will tried out at that contest in Michigan to see if it works for NAMM later. He was the first person this young to break 1000. But, I kind of doubt that he practices nothing but single strokes. He also wins drumoffs and his family says he plays 4 hour gigs. You cannot do that by practicing just single strokes.

I am betting that part of this idea about having a WFD at a college and using this well rounded kid as kind of a poster child to promote it is WFDs attempt to go legit. They have to know that this other negative reaction is out there. And some of what people say on the other side is probably true. As an old teacher, I just like seeing the kids have fun playing their rudiments. But like some of you, a lot of this other stuff confuses me.

[ThomasDee]

Man! this is so weird. Actually some of those WFD videos I worked on in one capacity or another. A couple as just a shooter a couple as director. First let me say it is wonderful to see WFD discussed in a civilized manner for a change. haha!

As I stated above, I have had some personal experience with WFD in video production and also I've given it a whirl a few times at the events. I have met a lot of the guys in the WFD and they are not only truly nice folks, but live and breathe drumming 24-7. I mean really 24-7.

If you haven't read last month's issue of Modern Drummer with 'Inside the WFD' story, please do. It is probably the most accurate article on the WFD I have ever read. The writer even admits he and a couple of the staff at MD were wrong in their early perception of WFD. Unless you have hands on experience, this article is a must read to even begin to grasp what these guys like Art, Mike, Tim, Johnny etc…are doing.

Most only know WFD as a ‘Hot Button’ topic within the music industry. BUT actually it’s mission is a traveling educational institution or extension from Boo McAfee’s percussion school in Nashville. Many don’t realize it took some 25 years just to build the drumometer as a teaching tool at his school. 25 years? Now that alone is dedication, my friends.

Many of today’s drummers, me included have forgotten that drumming should be ‘FUN’, but Boo never did. He fully knows not only the education field, but also the entertainment field as well. This is what the WFD is all about, blending education with entertainment. No matter what one wants to think about WFD, it is both educational and entertaining.

Here is a brief clip that I worked on for WFD and acts as a decent overview of what WFD is. It opens in windows and can be viewed at
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Speed%20can%20power%20anything%20broadband.wmv

One afternoon, over a couple of brews, I had the opportunity to ask Boo “how do these guys get such speed? ” Without missing a beat, he replied ‘Speed?, There is no speed. Speed on it’s own doesn’t exist. It’s simply a result of technique. Everybody harps on Speed for Speed’s sake. Well, Speed for Speed’s sake doesn’t exist. The drumometer wasn’t designed to gauge Speed, it’s designed to gauge technique. See speed can’t stand on it’s own for it has no legs, however technique does. Speed is just a derivative of that technique. The scores or speed as you call it is all about technique. A bullet on it’s own doesn’t suddenly speed through the air, it is propelled by some technical or mechanical means. Same with WFD. That’s all.”

As I pondered his statements, I realized that what he had done was once again combined education and entertainment. The result (or word if you will) SPEED being the entertainment factor combined with the ring, belt, girls (and let me tell you, man do they have some girls!) and TECHNIQUE (very serious techniques that takes many hours of dedication) being the educational factor. It’s a beautiful blend.

Well, yes, I’m a newbie here, but have met a few nice new friends in the past couple of days and look forward very much to sharing with and learning from all of you. Again, I realize WFD is a ‘hot button’ topic and congrats to this forum for being able to discuss it in a civilized and even eye opening manner.

TD

[jamndrummer]

ThomasDee
One afternoon, over a couple of brews, I had the opportunity to ask Boo “how do these guys get such speed? ” Without missing a beat, he replied ‘Speed?, There is no speed. Speed on it’s own doesn’t exist. It’s simply a result of technique. Everybody harps on Speed for Speed’s sake. Well, Speed for Speed’s sake doesn’t exist. The drumometer wasn’t designed to gauge Speed, it’s designed to gauge technique. See speed can’t stand on it’s own for it has no legs, however technique does. Speed is just a derivative of that technique. The scores or speed as you call it is all about technique. A bullet on it’s own doesn’t suddenly speed through the air, it is propelled by some technical or mechanical means. Same with WFD That’s all.”

Well said, I met this young drummer (www.kenoshadrummers.com shown as the featured artist) who has amazing speed for such a young man, but when I talked with him he explains how he was taught to master the technique by starting with using arm motions, to wrist motions and eventually fingers. Matt Smith is his name. You will see more of him I am sure. Thomas thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

[ThomasDee]

Well said, I met this young drummer (www.kenoshadrummers.com shown as the featured artist) who has amazing speed for such a young man, but when I talked with him he explains how he was taught to master the technique by starting with using arm motions, to wrist motions and eventually fingers. Matt Smith is his name. You will see more of him I am sure. Thomas thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
http://www.kenoshadrummers.com/johnnymatt.jpg

Well, I can tell you one thing, he's in great company for if my eyes serve me correctly that's none other than Johnny Rabb of WFD fame standing beside him. I have been reading about Matt here on the board and must say that his accomplishments are truly amazing.

Once again, we have to break what these guys are doing down to simply technique. As Boo says, "folks think these guys sit down and simply play as hard. loud and fast as they can and that is just not the case. All th physics of drumming come into play. It's all about technique not speed." Matt has a beautiful and exciting career. I'm in my mid 20's now and if I had that kind of technical ability 10 years ago I would probably been a WFD Champ myself. I had to get into other areas to eat and pay the bills. Oh, well it is never too late and I will still give it a shot from time to time, but I have to be realistic with where I am. The drumometer does not lie.

Young guys like Matt coming along inspire us all to try and improve. That's the beauty in the WFD.

I met Johnny on a couple of shoots and he is the niceist person I have ever met.

I agree, we all will be hearing more from this young fellow and it is exciting to know he has such dedication to compete at this level.

TD

[Scatman]

Is this kid Matt going to be a wfd guy like Johnny Rabb, Mike Mangini and Art Verdi?

[jamndrummer]

Scatman


Re: WFD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this kid Matt going to be a wfd guy like Johnny Rabb, Mike Mangini and Art Verdi?

First of all, all the guys you mentioned have their own uniqueness about them I am sure of it. And rumor has it that Matt might be listed as the fastest player under 16 years. He sure has a lot of other experience under the table for a young man of his age.

[Scatman]

If uniqueness means fast or talented Mike Mangini has the most uniqueness

[Elvin4ever]

Is this kid Matt going to be a wfd guy like Johnny Rabb, Mike Mangini and Art Verdi?

I just saw from that same site where the Rabb picture is coming from that there are also pictures of this kid with Louie Bellson and Rashied Ali. I doubt this makes him any more of a Bellson or Ali guy than his picture with Rabb makes him a WFD guy. Why try to put a category on a 15 year old? He probably uses the Drumometer because he has fun with it.

There are probably 100 kids out there like this Matt kid. The reason we are seeing a lot of this one right now is because he brings an intersting slant to the WFD debate. To some, well rounded kids who play Coltrane aren't supposed to be into WFD. Again, if WFD is all you do, then yeah it's a problem. But, there is obviously something else out there that should be looked into.

[ThomasDee]

WFD has no age limits. The kid that just won WFD World Finals in Indianapolis this year was only 17. Art Verdi is close to 60, if not 60. So, there's no age discrimination at WFD.
I heard Jim Chapin had a 86th, Birthday party with the WFD. So it goes from teenager to guys in their 80's. Girls too!

I just wish I had started training, and there was a drumometer earlier or had the available time on a weekly basis NOW to train properly to compete at this extreme level. To me it is all about FUN, if I do it or work for them I'm concentrating on making sure I get the right shots for them that best captures and expresses what they are about.

Either way when I am involved with the WFD it is always FUN! They have a very family like vibe to everything they do.

Matt I'm sure is great, but the guy that just won it with well over 1000 is only a year older which both just goes to show you how seriously scary these WFD score really are.

Is Matt 15 or 16? Either way it's only like 2 years a part and these guys will be the leaders and future Champs of the WFD.

TD

[Scatman]

It's hard to believe drummers sit and work on speed all day without seeing the major part of drumming is to groove the band I call that being hypnotized on speed or obseessed with speed That's just no good and a waste of time Guys with the wfd like Mangini groove the hell out of bands. Buddy Rich did and Mike Mangini does awesome things with the drums using speed and power They don'[t just play paradiddles all over the kit like some guys do

[Elvin4ever]

It's hard to believe drummers sit and work on speed all day without seeing the major part of drumming is to groove the band I call that being hypnotized on speed or obseessed with speed That's just no good and a waste of time Guys with the wfd like Mangini groove the hell out of bands. Buddy Rich did and Mike Mangini does awesome things with the drums using speed and power They don'[t just play paradiddles all over the kit like some guys do

I agree. But again, I truly believe that most of the new younger WFD guys are not obsessed by speed. The 15 year old Smith kid is also one of the best teenage jazz drummers on the planet. THIS is why he is getting all the recent buzz. The speed is just a part of it. His ability to groove a band will scare most WFD detractors to death. I have heard this kid a couple of times now. It's a fact.

But, do not be surprised if he scores a 1030 at WFD and wins the thing. He has only competed in 1 WFD event and only heard about WFD three months ago. In fact he would have won the California NAMM easily last year, when a 923 won the thing. But mostly, this kid has a chance to become a very serious young Tony Williams or Brian Blade type jazz guy. This is the main thing.

[ThomasDee]

It's hard to believe drummers sit and work on speed all day without seeing the major part of drumming is to groove the band I call that being hypnotized on speed or obseessed with speed That's just no good and a waste of time Guys with the wfd like Mangini groove the hell out of bands. Buddy Rich did and Mike Mangini does awesome things with the drums using speed and power They don'[t just play paradiddles all over the kit like some guys do
Scatman, no worries every WFD guy I have ever met can play a drum set and play it well. WFD is not about drumset playing. As Tim Waterson says in his video, this is the next level of drumming, it's about Speed, Power, Endurance and Control!

[Hanky12]

Expression of a feel is much more important than how fast one plays Some drummers can play real fast but they can't play slow eighth or 16ths notes smoothly with a groove or feel Gene Krupa once said "if the people can't dance to my solo I feel ike I failed in the solo" I'm not saying WFD guys like Johnny Rabb and Art Verdi don't play smoothly or don't groove all I'm saying is a lot of guys can't They spend to much time pushing their chops as fast as they can go without concentrating on playing smoothly and with a feel at all tempos This is what I harp on with all my kids I understand they have to play fast with hese metal bands but they should be able to cover all the bases

[Scatman]

Gene Krupa must of said that 50 years ago Times have changed You can't dance to a Vinnie or Elvin solo i agree about being able to control what you're playing at all tempos but now a days forget what krupa said I already said to many guys only want to practice fast patterns but lets get with modern times

[ThomasDee]

With NO disrespect meant, Gene Krupa knew drumming and he also knew entertainment. IMHO He clearly knew which one paid his bills. If people were not entertained (I guess through dancing at that time) and by your statements maybe he figured he had failed. I wouldn't think so, but I see what you are trying to say.

Sure he was a great drummer, but he was also a great entertainer. So was Buddy Rich and all who had to perform in that era. To me this as no different than the WFD.

Drumming/Entertainment.

Please keep in mind that today's concerts are much different than in the days of Gene Krupa. This is not meant to be condescending in any manner, but Benny Goodman had a different crowd due to the times than SLIPKNOT although I'm sure their motives to entertain or move the audience were both as deeply committed and obviously successful.

I think all the older greats knew who paid their bills and they were extremely giving in their performances. I guess what I'm trying to say is people now days as then pay good hard earned money to be entertained.

If they are not entertained then it is easy to see why they would feel short changed. I guess Gene Krupa never wanted to feel like he had short changed anyone. As far as I know there is no record of anyone ever asking for a refund to a Gene Krupa performance.

TD
ps. Please read the MD article on WFD. It may not be what you think it is.

[Elvin4ever]

I'm not saying WFD guys like Johnny Rabb and Art Verdi don't play smoothly or don't groove all I'm saying is a lot of guys can't.

Much the same can be said for the lion's share of drummers WITHOUT speed as well.

And as much as I enjoy reading Scatman's informed comments, I have to cast some doubt about not being able to dance to an Elvin Jones solo. After all, it's a big world out there. If you're talking about American foxtrots, then no. If you're talking say Western African ju ju, than absolutely yes.

[ThomasDee]

Much the same can be said for the lion's share of drummers WITHOUT speed as well.

And as much as I enjoy reading Scatman's informed comments, I have to cast some doubt about not being able to dance to an Elvin Jones solo. After all, it's a big world out there. If you're talking about American foxtrots, then no. If you're talking say Western African ju ju, than absolutely yes.
"Western African ju ju, than absolutely yes." Elvin was a monster. Saw him at PASIC a year or so ago. Not sure how he would have faired at WFD, but for his style on the kit, he was the greatest IMHO.

I heard some stuff I think it was with Coletrane that was pretty blistering, but I don't remember anything as fast as Buddy or the WFD gang. Do you?

There's some tracks of early Billy Cobham stuff with some very frieghtening single stroke rolls, now he would be one I would like to see do WFD. I wonder what Billy would score on the drumometer?

TD

[Elvin4ever]

You are right. I doubt Elvin Jones was much about speed, although he could play fast if he chose. Billy Cobham however would fare well at one these WFD Events. It's amazing to me how Cobham's time in Europe has thrown him on the back burner with many of the young guys. Back in the 1970s, he was one of the two or three most popular guys.

[Scatman]

I'll bet if Billy Cobham was to compete with Art Verdi or Mike Mangini the drumometer would smoke Billy would melt the drumometer ha ha

[Hanky12]

If Billy Cobham uses the drumometer and it smokes he's using the wrong adapter or something's wrong with the unit maybe the electrical system Billy aint that fast ha

[Scatman]

Again I say Billy would smoke with the drumometer Great matched finger technique He's something like Marco Minnenman Marco did 1005 or something on the WFD site That's what I think Billy would do

[Elvin4ever]

Is anybody going to the big WFD contest in Flint? I hear it is going to have a lot of different themes including the Steelheads Steel Band. I saw those guys open at the Detroit Jazz Festival. They were really good! It will probably be a lot of fun, because there is probably going to be a nice mix of strong WFD competitiors and good music. Anyway, it's sometime in November at the community college out there. I also hear the prizes are decent, which means some kids will probably come out for sure.

[jamndrummer]

Matt Smith 15 year old worlds fastest drummer under 16. Video of television broadcast on Matt now available.



To view - http://www.kenoshadrummers.com

[DrumNut]

Yes, Billy Cobham would be great on that drumometer, he plays finger style french doesnt he?

[Elvin4ever]

Some friends of my son (drummers all) showed me that WFD just updated their site, and are apparently geared up for more new events, including a series of new contests in the UK, and the Hong Kong contest which has been known for awhile. I noticed the info on the Michigan contest is also up. They advertised the Anaheim NAMM dates, but I could not find exact info on the WFD Championship. So I guess for Americans, until the championships in January, the Michigan event is it.

[ThomasDee]

Some friends of my son (drummers all) showed me that WFD just updated their site, and are apparently geared up for more new events, including a series of new contests in the UK, and the Hong Kong contest which has been known for awhile. I noticed the info on the Michigan contest is also up. They advertised the Anaheim NAMM dates, but I could not find exact info on the WFD Championship. So I guess for Americans, until the championships in January, the Michigan event is it.
Well, I can remember when WFD started and it was mostly just in the states. I didn't see the first year's rounds, but was aware of them. Now when you look at any time they are spread out from Michigan to the UK on to Hong Kong and then back around to Ca. they truly have gone International or 'world-wide' if you will. WFD has become a Global x- sport.

It's really fun, exciting and even somewhat rewarding to see this growth because actually knowing the folks that created it and having worked for them I feel a part of this movement. it's funny because it is the first time in my life I can say "I knew them when........"

Also as mentioned on another thread Terl Bryant drummer for Jones Paul Jones (bassist wiht Led Zepplin) fame will be doing the WFD on The Richard and Judy Show in London tomorrow Oct 6th.

All this explosion in growth has a very positive impact on the future of drumming (IMHO) for as Billy Ward basically (paraphrasing here) said "anything that gets sticks into kids hands is a good thing". I've shot several WFD events and not only does it get sticks into kids hands, but adults alike. Drummers and Non-Drummers too, which means it is expanding the marketplace in a very positive manner.

I noticed on the site that the Michigan date is to be televised. Not sure who is filming it, but I left Boo a message that if he's looking for a guy to shoot, I'm there. So who knows maybe I will see some of you at Mich-WFD.

TD
ps. It's Halloween season here in the states and I noticed WFD once again has one of my projects back on sale. If you want to have a scream and a good laugh check out www.jasonfarmer.com 'The Freddy Krueger of Drumming!' Believe me, it gives a new meaning to BIZARRE!!!!!!!

[NUTHA JASON]

why wait for the machine to know.

fust watched WFD on richard and judy and was inspired to see how many strokes i can play in a minute. so here's a chart i devised. as long as you are honest with yourself and play along to your metronome faithfully for one solid minute you can get a pretty accurate idea of your ability.
so:
Playing 8 single strokes per metronome count (no buzzing)

50 b/min = 400 stokes per min
55 b/min = 440 stokes per min
60 b/min = 480 stokes per min
65 b/min = 520 stokes per min
70 b/min = 560 stokes per min
75 b/min = 600 stokes per min
80 b/min = 640 stokes per min
85 b/min = 680 stokes per min
90 b/min = 720 stokes per min
95 b/min = 760 stokes per min
100 b/min = 800 stokes per min
105 b/min = 840 stokes per min
110 b/min = 880 stokes per min
115 b/min = 920 stokes per min
120 b/min = 960 stokes per min
125 b/min = 1000 stokes per min (this is the BIG target)
130 b/min = 1040 stokes per min
135 b/min = 1080 stokes per min
140 b/min = 1120 stokes per min
145 b/min = 1160 stokes per min
150 b/min = 1200 stokes per min
155 b/min = 1240 stokes per min (just under the world record - mike mangini)
160 b/min = 1280 stokes per min
165 b/min = 1320 stokes per min
170 b/min = 1360 stokes per min
175 b/min = 1400 stokes per min
180 b/min = 1440 stokes per min

now obviously during a true attempt there will be some fluctuation (speeding up and slowing down) so for the purposes of our chart you probably are playing a shade slower than you would be in the actual event. take your time over the next few days, try various counrs until you get your best honest performance and then tell us about it. i worked out at 80 (640strokes) to start off. and managed it easily but my forearms were alittle on fire. i will try again later until i have an idea of my top speed over a minute.
see how you do...

j

[NUTHA JASON]

phew. can barely type. just managed to push out 105 b/min (840 strokes). going to push the metronome up a notch or two every day now and see where i can get to.


j

[charinita]

what kind of metronome are you using???

[NUTHA JASON]

the one built into my roland td8k practice kit. why?

[yakbutter]

I'm at 720.

I need to practice singles some more, apparently.

[theduke86]

I did 112 for a minute. So somewhere in the 900 ish range. This is after a warmup going from 60, to 80, to 100. I'm really suprised. I had no idea that I could do 900. Wow. That's a confidence builder.... Last June, I was sitting at 800 when I was farting around on my friend's drumometer. This is really cool to see how I'm improving... I really worked my chops for a couple of months. Oh well. Now I'm learning music!!!
When I get to 125... I'll be happy. This isn't even a concern to me right now. Once I can play afro cuban and solo melodically, I'll come back to this thread.
PS: Nice speed Nutha. Congrats!

[ak_]

the answer to the above question is nope! I am officially not the world's fastest drummer (in case you thought I was .) Well, i don't really care to be, but those guys still must be beastly to be able to hold up that for so long!!!! keeping it going for that long...wow! I thought i was pusin like at least 18 seconds, and i started looking at my watch, HA! I was hardly holdin 7. But now I can hold up 160 for about 9-10 seconds...sooooo...that means only 6 times as long and i'm a champ! Yeah, I'm not coming anywhere close to holding it for a minute....i guess i'll start at 30 and work my way up....

[RudimentalDrummer]

This is going to kill me hahaha.... but good food ! I'll try.

[Scatman]

Anybody around the UK as fast as Mike Mangini, Johnny Rabb and Art Verdi?

[aahznightsky]

Does anyone know the world record for fastest double strokes? Cuz last year I participated and one in a competition at this marching band festival at I think around 1476 strokes if I can remember correctly. I was just wondering how close I was...

[Elvin4ever]

Does anyone know the world record for fastest double strokes? Cuz last year I participated and one in a competition at this marching band festival at I think around 1476 strokes if I can remember correctly. I was just wondering how close I was...

Eric Okamoto of Clayton, North Carolina set the record July, 2005 at the World Championships in Indianapolis/ 1599 double strokes. So, yes you are in the ballpark.

[Elvin4ever]

Well, i don't really care to be, but those guys still must be beastly to be able to hold up that for so long!!!! keeping it going for that long...wow!
My understanding is that the very top guys can perform one preliminary try after another without fatigue. Endurance is most assuredly the key, and that is a good skill. Tireless drummers seldom drag tempos at gigs, and as we all know, dragging is the beign of every working drummer's existence.

Some of these new WFD young bloods seem to never get tired, which goes back to the original thought about how maybe some of this is inborn. All the rest of us naturally grow fatigued during a strenuous percussive exercise. If fatigue is not so much an issue then the necessary consistency comes to the forefront, making these WFD victories a possibility.

At the Indianapolis NAMM, there was one guy who seemed a step above the others throughout most of his preliminary tries, but he would ocassionally experience an unexplained downturn. Although he seemed the favorite he lacked consistency in the finals and took third, replaced by a young guy whose scores probably never wavered by any more than ten strokes during several preliminary attempts. The same thing happened in the Ohio WFD. One guy seemed unbeatable for one preliminary round, and once even scored over 1000. This was followed by his utter fatigue in another round ten minutes later. He was beaten by 100 strokes by a kid with remarkable endurance, whose scores seldom if ever wavered.

[ClockworkOrange]

why wait for the machine to know.

fust watched WFD on richard and judy and was inspired to see how many strokes i can play in a minute. so here's a chart i devised. as long as you are honest with yourself and play along to your metronome faithfully for one solid minute you can get a pretty accurate idea of your ability.
so:
Playing 8 single strokes per metronome count (no buzzing)

50 b/min = 400 stokes per min
55 b/min = 440 stokes per min
60 b/min = 480 stokes per min
65 b/min = 520 stokes per min
70 b/min = 560 stokes per min
75 b/min = 600 stokes per min
80 b/min = 640 stokes per min
85 b/min = 680 stokes per min
90 b/min = 720 stokes per min
95 b/min = 760 stokes per min
100 b/min = 800 stokes per min
105 b/min = 840 stokes per min
110 b/min = 880 stokes per min
115 b/min = 920 stokes per min
120 b/min = 960 stokes per min
125 b/min = 1000 stokes per min (this is the BIG target)
130 b/min = 1040 stokes per min
135 b/min = 1080 stokes per min
140 b/min = 1120 stokes per min
145 b/min = 1160 stokes per min
150 b/min = 1200 stokes per min
155 b/min = 1240 stokes per min (just under the world record - mike mangini)
160 b/min = 1280 stokes per min
165 b/min = 1320 stokes per min
170 b/min = 1360 stokes per min
175 b/min = 1400 stokes per min
180 b/min = 1440 stokes per min

now obviously during a true attempt there will be some fluctuation (speeding up and slowing down) so for the purposes of our chart you probably are playing a shade slower than you would be in the actual event. take your time over the next few days, try various counrs until you get your best honest performance and then tell us about it. i worked out at 80 (640strokes) to start off. and managed it easily but my forearms were alittle on fire. i will try again later until i have an idea of my top speed over a minute.
see how you do...

j

How many acres of cut grass would that equal?..........

[toteman2]

Does anyone know the world record for fastest double strokes? Cuz last year I participated and one in a competition at this marching band festival at I think around 1476 strokes if I can remember correctly. I was just wondering how close I was...


dude if your playing 1476 double stokes in a minute, not only is the just totaly amazing, you could be making good money competing in these events...Are you sure that is acurate? The new doubles record is just insane and was just broken recently of over 1500 stokes, but the world record for a long time was 1200...http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Seth%201200%20broadband.wmv

I don't know man...Are you sure you played 276 stokes faster than that? If so YOU DA MAN! FOR REAL!!!!!

[Henry II]

Anybody around the UK as fast as Mike Mangini, Johnny Rabb and Art Verdi?

I don't know but I'd put my money on Danny Gottlieb for WFD even though he'll probably never compete.

[Elvin4ever]

I don't know but I'd put my money on Danny Gottlieb for WFD even though he'll probably never compete.
So would I.

Nowadays, he is spending a lot more time teaching college students in Florida. So he is definately travelling less than before, meaning he has more time to compete in one of these events. I have also heard that some of his students have been trying to get him to do it. So who knows?

Of course a guy like that has little to win and everything to lose if he competes. Although these events are very high profile, and can add even more to already incredible careers, the possibility of losing to some freakish 16 year old is probably why you will never see the Weckls of the world in them, and why even an obvious shoe in like Gottlieb will probably remain a bystander.

[CyclopseSlayer]

I did the drumometer thing at the warped tour in 2001, I did 904, which I was pretty stoked on considering my arms locked up a few times around 30 seconds in. They dq'd my score saying I did a press stroke at the end, which I thought was complete bull, but whatever, it was a fun experience. I haven't tried it since then, but I'm interested to see how I'd do 4 years later

[NUTHA JASON]

well use the chart above to get an estimate and let us know how you do.


j

[NUTHA JASON]

thomasdee PMed me this ad. WFd is coming here to the uk. get on board if you can.
j
ps: thanks TD

WORLD'S FASTEST DRUMMER CONTEST COMES TO THE UK!

Extreme Sport Drumming has come to the UK! Drummers, prepare to endure the longest 60 seconds of your life!

Drummerbuzz was recently granted licence by Alan-McAfee, Inc to run these events in the UK and certain areas of Europe. We are delighted to be part of this internationally growing phenomenon and plan to make valuable use of this opportunity to bring WFD to as many drummers and potential drummers as possible.

We believe that the WFD carries immense educational value, providing drummers and non-drummers alike with the chance to set a schedule for self improvement and discipline, not only during the build up to an event, but at the contest itself where professional drummers are always on hand to provide assistance and guidance to participants. It's also a platform where Drummers at all levels can get together exchange ideas, strategies and enjoy entertainment at the extreme end of drumming.

Speed may provide the excitement and fun aspect, but the important goal here is to improve technique.


UK & EUROPE WFD EVENTS Europe Events
16 OCT 2005:

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121 Burnmoor Street
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LE2 7JL

Fantastic Prizes sponsored by Pro-Mark, Musicians Union, Takeover Radio 103.2 FM (Shazza), VK Energy & more!

Battle of the Hands &
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Fastest Single Stroke Roll in 60 seconds and a Freestyle Category for Spectators


More dates soon!


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[Scatman]

Weckl don't those kind of chops to compete with Mangini or Art Verdi but Gottlieb and Vinnie might have

[ThomasDee]

There's an legendary story about Dave doing the Drumometer. I'm sworn to secrecy, meaning if I told you we both would be killed. Working for them, I have learned there is a reason they are called 'The Corn-Bred Mafia.' HAHA!

NJ. Thanks so much for posting the upcoming WFD-UK events. I spoke with Boo tonight and he said it looks like Terl Bryant is now listed as the fastest drummer in the UK with a 919 although he ran a 1017 in the green room before the show. I suggested since the director of WFD-UK was present they go with the 1017 which I think is fair, but Boo is extremely particular with these records and I'd say he will go with the 919.

Who do you guys think is the fastest in the UK? I have read many polls and contenders range from Billy Cobham to Carl Palmer.

My vote is it is going to be someone no one has ever heard. WFD just has a way of bringing these guys out of the wood work. Who ever heard of Tim Waterson or Art Verdi before WFD? Now when you take a crap their name is branded on each sheet of wiping paper. HAHA!

I would love to see Billy and Carl go at each other, but as Rod Morgenstein said in DRUM! "Doing the WFD is like the Emperor showing the world he has No Clothes!"

Here's a funny antidote, Boo swears that as Terl and the WFD were preparing to do The Richard and Judy Show last Thursday, in walked none other than guess who? I'll give you some hints, he's one of the All Time Legends of Rock Drumming, his full name starts with a 'R' and ends with a 'r'. he would be one of the last British (or world) drummers known for SPEED, but one of the tops, if not the TOP recognized for creating sheer hysteria world wide. Here's the clincher, supposedly he loves the WFD. Go figure!

So who knows, if Billy and Carl don't step up to the challenge maybe 'the man' himself will, if for nothing else other than for the pure entertainment factor of WFD.

TD

[NUTHA JASON]

so did ringo have a go then?

j

[sound zap]

Johnny Rabb is great also I been hearing a lot about his one handed off the rim roll

[NUTHA JASON]

Do a search on him here. there is a gret thread with vids of rabb doing that roll. best demo ever.

j

[NUTHA JASON]

wayhey.

after watching this clip from thomasDee on the other WFD thread i tried using Mike Mangini's technique:
If you are looking for the absolute fastest drumming clip, just sheer speed then it has to be this one of Mike Mangini's 1200 WFD World Record attempt. i worked on this clip and can tell you first hand, it is so fast that the cameras and especially in the clip, the compressed frames are not able to keep up with his hands. His hands are moving over 20 times per second, every second for a minute. A camera moves at 29.97 and when compressed for the web, Mike's hands are moving way faster than the frames, so don't be surprised if it looks almost like his hands are not even moving.

Here's the clip and it opens in windows at
http://www.extremesportdrumming.com...20broadband.wmv (http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Mike%20Mangini%201203%20broadband.wmv)

and i managed to hold it down for 60 seconds at 120b/min.
960 strokes!!!
boy i'm chuffed.
i'm going to seriously train. i want to top 1000 neatly by christmas. then i will find a drumometer somewher and give it a go.

j

[ThomasDee]

so did ringo have a go then?

j
HAHA! You guessed it! I'm not clear yet on whether he actually gave it a try or just hung out for a few moments and talked about it. I believe it was more like, Ringo was there in the London studio to do another show, he had heard about the whole WFD Drumometer craze, wanted to check it out. Supposedly Terl and the WFD guys explained it all to him, showed him how it worked, he expressed he thought it was keen and wished them all the best and said he would stay in touch as possibly giving it a go. I will ask if he actually gave it a go and if so, what his score was, etc…..

At first I couldn't believe what I was hearing, but then it dawned on me, here is a guy that saw a cutting edge movement in the 60's, so why in the world would he not see a cutting edge movement 40 years later?

It would be great to see him host a WFD.

Also according to Boo, Stephen Hawking stopped by to check out the Drumometer. I asked what Hawking thought and Boo seemed to think he was somewhat intrigued by the lil' black box and mindless activity. haha! I can just see Stephen Hawking starring at the Drumometer with those brilliantly haunting eyes.

[Scatman]

Johnny Rabb, Art Verdi, Mike Mangini, Dennis Chambers, Billy Cobham, Virgil Donati, all these guys can blow Dave Weckl away as far as chops but Dave has something as a drummer I really dig. Dave can really groove man These drummers can too but Dave has something that is awesome

[ThomasDee]

wayhey.

after watching this clip from thomasDee on the other WFD thread i tried using Mike Mangini's technique:


and i managed to hold it down for 60 seconds at 120b/min.
960 strokes!!!
boy i'm chuffed.
i'm going to seriously train. i want to top 1000 neatly by christmas. then i will find a drumometer somewher and give it a go.

j
J. 960? Are you doing the WFD in UK this coming weekend? If Terl Bryant is running 919-1017 and he can't compete, sounds like you are a 'shoe in' to become the next WFD-UK Champion, or at least the winner of the first WFD-UK Event.

No Joke, are you going for it this weekend?

You should! 960 is getting up there with World Finals scores.

TD

[ThomasDee]

My friends, 960 is fast and I think NJ could take the WFD-UK title. If NJ didn't win the entire WFD Champion of the world on his first try at least he would be the WFD Fastest Administrator! I can see a new challenge and title among forum mods and administrators world wide.

And as I stated, I think NJ could take the WFD-UK title.

TD

[Riley05]

I did 100 b/min = 800 stokes per min

[ak_]

heh...i figured out why it's been so difficult for me, i'm not dividing each beat into 8 strokes...i've been dividing um into 12 in each bar. So yeah, i knew my brain naturally divided things into trips, and I figured somethin was off...so i slowed it down in sound forge...so yeah, NJ you've got some competition then dude, i can only hold it at 100bpm for about 16 seconds, but i'm doin 4 more strokes then you in each beat =) ...and if i multiplied right 1 minute of 12 beats at 100bpm should be 1,200 strokes right? Just a little bit more and i'm a mangini...type...stroke guy...yeah cool!!!

(reason for deleted below is cuz i figured out the slowing down in sound forge thing)

[Elvin4ever]

I just googled WFD and found the drumskillz.com website, where they had a list of preliminary contestants for the Flint Michigan contest. With something like 5 weeks to go, they already have 40 contestants with just the hands. They don't even start on feet until this week. That is looking to be a huge event. Someone said the prizes include free airfare to the world championships in Anaheim, snare drums, eliminator pedals etc... So I think I may take a shot. Up to now, I have just been an interested observer, although I do not think I am that fast.

Although nothing so far is super fast (they havn't been to Detroit for preliminaries yet), there was a 15 year old Flint kid with an 886. I was thinking this was just Matt Smith on a slow day, and then I look up and see Matt's EXHIBITION score of 1021. Apparently because his dad works at the host school, Matt cannot compete, but will be around for some playing. But 1021 ties the fastest qualifying contest time for 2005 in all of WFD. Honestly, I will not be at all surprised if young Smith wins it all this year, even if hand speeds get better and better all the time with all the contestants.

Wow, two 15 year old Flint kids with scores of 886 and 1021. What are they feeding them out there?

[NUTHA JASON]

heh...i figured out why it's been so difficult for me, i'm not dividing each beat into 8 strokes...i've been dividing um into 12 in each bar. So yeah, i knew my brain naturally divided things into trips, and I figured somethin was off...so i slowed it down in sound forge...so yeah, NJ you've got some competition then dude, i can only hold it at 100bpm for about 16 seconds, but i'm doin 4 more strokes then you in each beat =) ...and if i multiplied right 1 minute of 12 beats at 100bpm should be 1,200 strokes right? Just a little bit more and i'm a mangini...type...stroke guy...yeah cool!!!
ak_ your user name should have a 47 behind it.
but seriously...
i can set my metronome at 155 and do 8 note flurries or even at 140 and hold down a roll for about ten seconds before locking up. the real trick is to do it for 60 seconds. they are not kidding when they say it is the longest sixty seconds of your life. mangini has the endurance but i wonder what his true top speed is. they need a new drumometer that can register the top speed of any 16 strokes played in a minute of rolling. a lot of us are good at flurries because that is what we use in fills. i think that's why a lot of pro drummers don't enter WFD. over a five second slot they will out drum most of the wfd champions but have never needed and therefore don't really want to go the whole minute.
great speed tho ak_. i wish we had a few weeks to prepare. i only started training this monday.
j

[NUTHA JASON]

ATTENTION ALL UK MEMBERS!

i just recieved this reply from the organisers of WFD uk:


Hi Jason

Many thanks for your interest in WFD UK Events. Hereby attached, a PDF document with all the details for the next event (Leicester).

Drummerworld.com is an absolutely fantastic website, we at Drummerbuzz and WFD UK are great fans! You're more-than-welcome to advise your members.
960 Strokes is a brilliant score, would be excellent if you can crack it and maybe even go for 1000!

To register early for the event, please send an email to wfdreg@drummerbuzz.com (http://uk.f257.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=wfdreg@drummerbuzz.com) with the following details:
Name, Age, Fastest Hands and/or Fastest Feet Contest, Single Strokes or Freestyle. Upon receipt we will send you a registration number which you can present at the registration desk on the event date. A fee of £1 per attempt is payable on the date of the event during the preliminary rounds, you're welcome to enter as many times as you like until the preliminary rounds are over.

Details of registration for the next event are also available in the attached document.

All the best of luck as you prepare for the WFD contest.

Kind Regards
WFD UK Team

16 october (sunday)
entry free.
£1 per go
singles on hands
singles on feet

time 11h00 to 17h00 preliminaries.
17h00 finals.

location:
the halftime orange
21 burnmoor street.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/wfd.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)

[ak_]

haha the ak's for the state not the gun...but yeah...i shall start training as well...and i will destroy you jason! (evil grin) ...certain death will reign upon you bwahaha, yeah right...ANYWAY, yeah i understand the whole longest minute ever thing...SO! I hope you smoke everyone in the UK with your speediness! And gimme a month or so, and i will have taken the world championships...maybe...ehhhh ya never know

[NUTHA JASON]

you're on mate. see my training routine in the thread?

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3099

i've started well below my normal top speed for neatness sake at 80b/min (x8) and am adding 3 b/min every session.

try this on for size:
open up microsoft word. get a clock with a second hand. type this:
zmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzmzm .... as fat as you can for sixty seconds, then do a word count and see how mant letters there are. ta da. your very own drumometer!

j

[NUTHA JASON]

yes.








this morning, still in my gown i sat down to train and after a warm up at 101b/min i did a clean run at 120b/min. then i stuffed around for a bit (as we do) and then i set the metronome at 140b/min. just doing little flurries for fun but suddenly i started rolling hard and fast at 140 and kept it up for 50 seconds before i broke down a bit.
that's 1120 or so strokes in a minute! when you get into the zone it is actually easier to go fast, then its up to stamina.

WFD here i come.

j

[ThomasDee]

yes.








this morning, still in my gown i sat down to train and after a warm up at 101b/min i did a clean run at 120b/min. then i stuffed around for a bit (as we do) and then i set the metronome at 140b/min. just doing little flurries for fun but suddenly i started rolling hard and fast at 140 and kept it up for 50 seconds before i broke down a bit.
that's 1120 or so strokes in a minute! when you get into the zone it is actually easier to go fast, then its up to stamina.

WFD here i come.

j

So NJ, I take it you are doing the WFD-UK this weekend Oct 14,15,16th.? 1120 is quite impressive! A word of advice to anyone who has never run on a Drumometer, please give it a few tries to get aquainted with, because as Kenny Aronoff says "The Drumometer will HUMBLE you." What is supposed to be gauged by a metronome in the quite surroundings of one's bedroom or practice studio is not exactly what happens in actuality at a WFD event.

Take it from some one who has discovered this the hard way. HAHA!

Good luck NJ. It sounds like you are prepared and please keep us less fortunate ones back here posted on both your outcome and that of the entire WFD-UK event. It seems to be at a feverish pitch, so much so we can feel it back in the states. I guess anything past 919 would be a new WFD-UK record.. Sounds like you have a new record on your hands.

We're all pulling for you!

TD

[ThomasDee]

Anybody go to the WFD today? If so how about an update.

TD

[jonescrusher]

Wow NJ! The speed of your progress is truly astounding. Barely a week ago you were getting 840 spm; now 1120 !!! Damn!

[toteman2]

NJ, how did the competition go? I'm very curious to hear you drumometer total...

[ak_]

Wow Jason...1120!!! You better have won the competition...

[Scatman]

That's faster than Art Verdi hits in a minute

[ThomasDee]

NJ, how did the competition go? I'm very curious to hear you drumometer total...
Same here! NJ any WFD report ?

[NUTHA JASON]

well i am exhausted. it's been a rollercoaster weekend. two heavy gigs a LOT of driving and then the WFD.
so here's the report.
first of all


So NJ, I take it you are doing the WFD-UK this weekend Oct 14,15,16th.? 1120 is quite impressive! A word of advice to anyone who has never run on a Drumometer, please give it a few tries to get aquainted with, because as Kenny Aronoff says "The Drumometer will HUMBLE you." What is supposed to be gauged by a metronome in the quite surroundings of one's bedroom or practice studio is not exactly what happens in actuality at a WFD event.

Take it from some one who has discovered this the hard way. HAHA!



this is sooo very very true. i do swear that at home with my mesh heads and relaxed during the week i did do 1120 strokes. but the pad on the drumometer is a hard one that demands more energy to play. add to that a weekend of drumming and a sudden lack of a metronome and i was a bit lost.
we arrived a bit late ... overslept at the hotel in milton keynes. arrived in time to have two goes on the drumometer. first was a dismal 794. then six minutes later another go: 841 which would put me at around 5th for hands. i should have got there an hour earlier. no warm up or anything but at least i know what to expect next time. still it was a cool event.

the presenter, a fellow south african, Ed Freitas (who is also the big dog for WFD in the uk now), was very supportive of every go for every member. he was great. he is exactly the right guy for the job and in his hands WFD will be firmly in place in the UK in the next year. you see him in the back ground of the pictures. he is encouraging the drummers and counting down their times. should soon see him here with us on DW.
there were lots of categories but we know which ones we really want to know about: here they are:

fastest hands in the uk:
wearing a lovely kilt the top man of jalapeno drums, Mr Dave Nuttall (spelling?) with a truly great 938 strokes. the UK record (for now).
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/11111a.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)
with a very close and i think unfair second place going to Mark McLaughlan with his best being 936. during his finals attempt the sound engineer dropped the sound about 15 seconds before he was meant to finish and so he stopped and then realised he still had time but a stop of even 2 seconds is too long so he quit there. i strongly believe that had he had a perfect run he might have clocked a higher score. there is an element of luck in the whole thing i guess. the best way is to enter it as often as possible. so keep the events coming ed.
here's to you mark:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/3333c.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)


fastest feet:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/22222b.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)

this surpeising man is Lee Alloway. he was a real contender for hands as well so keep eyes out for him. but the foot work was amazing. he calmly sat down and did 887 strokes. (new uk record)

and here's a shot of some of the crowd. loads of drumsticks and practice pads loads of drumming going on. great atmosphere. i actually really like the whole event in spite of the fact that i came no where. next time the prize is mine!

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/4444d.jpg (http://photobucket.com/albums/y290/nuthajason/?)

i'll try to get some vids up later of the two winning attempts but its bedtime now.

j

[Scatman]

Any pictures of Mike Mangini and Art Verdi Where were they in all of this? Where is Johnny Rabb ?

[toteman2]

Sounds like you had a great time NJ...

841 is nothing to be ashamed of...Thats great speed, however a far cry from 1120...I had a feeling that you would be far under 1120 because that is CRAZY CRAZY speed...

My advice would be to instead of practicing 8 note flurries at 100 BPM try 4 note flurries at 200 BPM or higher...This will make sure you are keeping time more acurate and will give you a better idea how fast you're playing...

For instance Mangini broke the 1200 barrier by practicing playing 16 notes at 300 BPM...

[Elvin4ever]

841 is an excellent score. With a good warmup, that will turn into 900+ next time. Just goes to show what a big deal 1000+ actually is. I don't know how those guys do it.

[Kungwana]

NJ you were awesome at the comp, I reckon with a bit of a warm up you could've probably sliced well into the 900s and been in the finals (I know, I was there).

I reckon Mark M is also a guy to watch for, it won't be that long before he hits the 1000.
Dave was great & pretty lucky this time round, but I've a feeling we gonna see some serious challenge to the 938 in the coming weeks and months.

[ThomasDee]

NJ. Great job! Thanks for the pics. Would love to see some video when you get a chance. Yea, I wanted to warn everyone, that in theory the whole chart thing is supposed or does work, but in actuality on the Drumometer it's a totally different story. Boo says at those higher speeds, the roll simply 'flat lines' and moves in and out of time. In other words it's so fast your eyes and ears can't pick up the fact that the roll is moving around with the time. It feeels, looks and sounds right, but once doing it with the Drumometer you will see exactly what is happening.

The Model II Drumometer is great because it has a built in metronome and reset footswitch so you can just sit there and go for it over and over. They have what's called a progress report which is very similiar to what you have here NJ, you just copy it and fill in the daily or weekly results of your progress.

NJ great job! Thanks for the report and please keep us posted on your progress.

TD

[NUTHA JASON]

Boo says at those higher speeds, the roll simply 'flat lines' and moves in and out of time. In other words it's so fast your eyes and ears can't pick up the fact that the roll is moving around with the time. It feeels, looks and sounds right, but once doing it with the Drumometer you will see exactly what is happening.
okay i decided to test this. i used my roland's record function and recorded myself at 140 b/min. i played on the count then added 'and's then 'e&a's and then finally what looked felt and sounded like another double so that i believed i was playing 8 strokes per count of the metronome. so according to my chart i would be playing 1120 strokes a minute. then i played it back and listened... at 140 still sounded right. but then i dialed the speed down to 70 and to my horror my hands were playing triplets! so i was only playing six strokes per count... a much more do-able 840 (which was my top score at WFD).

so where to from here?

well why not use the module the other way around?
i set the metronome at 60 b/min. then i playedand recorded 2 bars on the count (4 strokes), 2 bars with 'and's (8 strokes), 2 bars with 'e&a's (16 strokes), then about 40 bars of 32 strokes per bar (8 strokes per count). now i played it back at 100, 120, 130, 140 and 150. at 150 it sounds like the neatest double stroke roll. it really is an insane speed. but now i know what the various speeds should sound like. using this comparisson tool i retried my skills and i now know that at best i can roll out 8 neat strokes per count between 108 and 115 (so i top out at 920). knowing my benchmark is key to getting better. now i have schedule that starts back at 105 and will increase by one b/min everyday until i crack 60 seconds at 120. then i will settle there for a while until i am very sure i can get 960 neatly, every time. then i will move forward again.

j

[ThomasDee]

NJ HAHA! Great discovery! I have seen things such as this happen many times at WFD. Some even break out in arguments as the WFD guys like Art Verdi attempt to explain what is really happening. Most of comes from contestants who are really into speed drumming, have been working out dearly, but have never experienced the tremendously humbling effect the drumometer can have on one's ego.

840 is still a good score and great place to start. NJ. see if you can get your hands on a drumometer model II (2) with a metronome on it. The model II is much better for building like you are wanting to do because there is absolutely no guessing. Drumometer model II with the metronome takes all the guess work out of the equation. What can then take your chart and run through the numbers and see EXACTLY where you realy are.

Great info and congrats on the discovery. Thats why Boo says "what is supposed to be and what is can easily be two different things!' As Kenny Aronoff says "Drumometer will show you the way!"

Great Stuff!

TD
ps. I forgot to mention or ask who's going to PASIC? They are having a WFD at PASIC this year not sure of the details but I think it is Nov. 2-5 in Columbus Oh. it's at www.drumometer.com I believe in the remo booth.

[NUTHA JASON]

cool TD

the other new exercises i've made for speed are:

playing four strokes with one hand at speed. ie: RRRRLLLLRRRRLLLL at fourstrokes per beat. the theory being that concentrating on the technique of one hand at a time and then putting the two together will allow accurate 8 strokes per beat.

also, and this is an incredible work out, 8 strokes on the snare, 1st tom, 2nd tom and then a rest of one count. you know, like a very normal fill. but now at top speed. this combats the hearing problem as i change drums every metronome count and am definitely playing 8 each drum. starting at 95 and jumping up 5b/min every minute until i'm at 120.

j

[jamndrummer]

Listen to guys like this - http://www.jimkilpatrick.co.uk
Imagine them entering the WFD contests......wow to be that fast and clean.

[ak_]

haha...jim is awesome...man i love that guy, he's got a great accent too! It takes a little while to understand him at first, but he's by far one of the coolest guy's i've ever met... I have a lot of respect for the man, I mean he is the best snare drummer in the world after all.

[ThomasDee]

Listen to guys like this - http://www.jimkilpatrick.co.uk
Imagine them entering the WFD contests......wow to be that fast and clean.
I totaly agree that Jim Kilpatrick should give it a go. I have seen him a couple of times at PASIC etc.. and he is amazing. He would become to WFD-UK what Mike mangini is to WFD-USA. it would be good for the sport overall and also good for Jim Kilpatrick.

Although Mangini was somewhat famous, his world records simply put him way over the top as far as world recognition. Same would happen for Jim Kilpatrick no doubt. As WFD grows you are seeing and goint to see even more big names get involved. it has to be big names with the proper attitude, remember what Rod Morgenstein said about the whole 'Emperor has NO Clothes thing". IMHO This is what happened early on when a couple of pros who had built their careers off of speed suddenly freaked because now the whole world could see that possibly they were really not that fast. Some of it was more flash, trickery, smoke and mirrors and not really pure speed. It would have been much easier and better for them to simply admit they were not as fast as they appeared and worked or trained to improve rather than slam the movement. Drumometer took speed from a subjective state to a 100% objective state and some folks just didn't like that.

"The Emperor has NO Clothes!"

I think Jim Kilpatrick has the mindset to give it a go and would no doubt be a contender for the WFD World Crown. My guess is he is over 1000!

TD

[Thsmith]

Hello Drummerworld,

My name is Tom Smith. I am the Senior Fulbright Professor of Music, at Mott College in Flint, Michigan. This is my first encounter with a percussion forum. What a remarkable site this is. I had been told of Drummerworld by a couple of your forum members. Both were around when my son starting competing in events this past summer. One of your members (jamndrummer) has been especially supportive, and is a fine percussionist in her own right. Last June, I had the unique pleasure to hear her at a contest in Chicago. The woman certainly has some chops.

The other fellow (you know him as elvin4ever) is an older teacher from Pittsburgh. He used to teach university in Canada. He also plays modern jazz like a demon.

My son Matt Smith has also told me about Drummerworld. We were most pleased to witness your interest of his recent newscast. Moreover, the comments from your participants was most kind.

I am writing to inform everyone of our WFD event to be held Saturday, November 12, in the Mott Memorial Building Auditorium on Court St. here in Flint. What started out as a rather small affair has really exploded. We now believe it may end up being second in size only to the NAMM events themselves. It will be televised for a later broadcast where we plan to to package it as cleanly as possible for our PBS affiliate. We are also entertaining new concepts, such as instant replay for contested buzzing and double stroke calls.

Our main prize is free airfare to the Anaheim NAMM championships in January, for the top overall contestant. But there are other prizes, and events going on as well, including fusion jazz, and our own Steelheads, one of the top steel drum bands in North America. This group will be featured at the PASIC convention the week before. So please check them out.

We will have November 12 walk on preliminaries beginning at 10:00 am until 1:00 pm. The contest begins at around 2:00. We will qualify at least 40 people in 4 categories. Our two additional categories are a junior division for participants under 17. We have several Michigan preliminaries scheduled in different locales that are free of charge. But if you participate in the 11/12/05 preliminary, a fee of $20 will be charged. We will determine finalists by 1:30.

Yes, Matt will also be there performing in one of our jazz groups (from the Miles Davis Bitches Brew sessions), but he is not part of the competition. Therefore, his 1021 exhibition score, as seen on the Drumskillz website is only that. Right now we have yet to see any 900s or 1000s in hands. So at present that side of things is (although well represented) wide open. As for the feet, we have not even started that phase yet. I know that one of our feet prizes is a set of Eliminator pedals. So come out for the feet. We welcome your participation.

As for the arguments pro and con regarding WFD, I find it all kind of amusing. It's all in fun, and is neither the savior of percussion or the greatest detriment. We sponsor it to draw attention to our growing music department. The contest has certainly succeeded towards that end.

I appreciate your time.

Best,

Tom Smith

[ak_]

heh, well i'm hooking up with jim again in January, so i'll run it by him. I don't think he'll go for it personally, i mean the guy's insanely fast, but our idiom places much more emphasis on musicality than speed, but ya never know, it could be a good chance for him to show off!
=) ...which he does very well

[ThomasDee]

http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/WFDTV/Mangini%20solo%20256k.wmv

Got to see what this man Mike Mangini does. INSANE! It's over 9 min. not great footage (really decent but I didn't do it and dude actually got paid) anyway I did help compress and load it up for web and that is always a problem with Mangini because quite simply his hands move faster than technology!

Enjoy!

TD

[OZjazzer]

Let's be honest guys, the WFD is a joke. It's a joke that makes it even harder for drummers being treated as musicians. Can you imagine a World's Fastest Saxaphone Player Competition? Piano player? Bass Player etc etc. Seriously who would care? The fact the some drummers take this crap seriously makes us all look stupid. We're supposed to be playing music and music isn't about sounding like machine gun fire. Do the 'winners ever play in bands? Do they ever play gigs? No wonder drum machines are so popular if drummers continue to position themselves as athletes instead of musicians. Lets talk about music and forget 'fastest'.

[ThomasDee]

Well, if you are going to PASIC next week in Columbus then here's your chance to try the WFD! YES! according to DRUM! magazine and a few of my close friends (HAHA) Drumometer along with it's inventors Craig Alan and Boo McAfee will be in the REMO Booth. Oh, also Johnny Rabb will be on hand doing Drumometer demos and teaching.

Your's truly may get to go and run the camera for them, so look for me and come on by the REMO booth and give it a go! You never know, you just might have what it takes to be the WFD!!!!!

TD

[ThomasDee]

HAHA! I am just testing to see if something is wrong with the site. I made the below post earlier about WFD @ PASIC, but the thread didn't move to the top of topics. It just stayed at second page. Has anyone else ever seen this happen ???

What's up with it?

Anyway anyone going to PASIC? If so come by REMO Booth and give the WFD a go!

TD

[fasthands]

Hi all.

New to forum.

Could someone explain the drumometer? How it works? I know i could easily top 1000bpm.

Any info?

[NUTHA JASON]

its a practice pad with a peizo switch (trigger) connected to a simple computer that counts strokes and sets of a 60 second timer with the first stroke and stops counting at 60. it has other useful functions as well. look it up in google for the full specs.

as for topping 1000, don't be so sure, take it from me. read this whole thread and you will see why i say this.

j

[ThomasDee]

Warning!!!!

Just when you thought it was safe to get into WFD look who's doing it...
http://www.drumometer.com/Images/Photos/ThomasLang.jpg

This is simply Frightening!!!!!!

[rendezvous_drummer]

I have no idea how to test myself since my metronome is online and only goes up to 208. Anyone know a good online metronome that goes at least a thousand faster.

[NUTHA JASON]

youre kidding right? at 1000 b/min the clicks will be too close to discern. use the chart at the start of this thread instead. then set you metronome at 125 and play 8 strokes per beat to get 1000 strokes.

but even so you might, without realising it be playing 6 per beat. the best way to check this is to play four strokes per beat at 125b/min WITH ONE HAND, and then a minute with the other. This way there is no way of cheating yourself into thinking you are fast (as i did). once you can comfortably achieve this with each hand then go onto 8 strokes playing RLRL.

j

[finnhiggins]

youre kidding right? at 1000 b/min the clicks will be too close to discern. use the chart at the start of this thread instead. then set you metronome at 125 and play 8 strokes per beat to get 1000 strokes.

but even so you might, without realising it be playing 6 per beat. the best way to check this is to play four strokes per beat at 125b/min WITH ONE HAND, and then a minute with the other. This way there is no way of cheating yourself into thinking you are fast (as i did). once you can comfortably achieve this with each hand then go onto 8 strokes playing RLRL.

j

For ease I'd suggest doubling the tempo on what you've got and doing it in 16th notes - so for 1k strokes in a minute you work a 250bpm. That way it's harder to cheat - if you feel the beat alternating between your hands then you're clearly doing triplets. The only way to play a valid subdivision and play slower without getting that "hand to hand" feeling is to play all the way down at half time, and most people can tell the difference between 16ths at 125 and 16ths at 250!

[fasthands]

Ok. Mentronome set to 250 bpm. 1000bpm no problem playing paradiddle RLRR LRLL. If i was going for a record would paradiddle be accepted or would it need to be single strokes RLRLRL?

[mediocrefunkybeat]

There is a paradiddle contest as well, it's just not as well publicised. The standard contest is single strokes, one category for traditional and one for matched.

[ThomasDee]

I'm not 100% sure on WFD-UK division, but in the states the actual WFD Finals for Grand Prizes are only for singles, both hands and feet. BUT for WFD World Records (no prizes just World Recognition)they do many other rudiments including doubles, paradiddles, flams (I think?) presses and FREESTYLE!!!!!!

I still can't get over the impact that this photo is either having or will have on Extreme Sport Drumming. The UK division has on it's side (UK captain or leader we can only assume)one of the fastest drummers to ever live. They are poised to KILL!!!!!
http://www.drumometer.com/Images/Photos/ThomasLang.jpg
This is WFD-USA's worse nightmare! BUT great for WFD-UK and the sport as a whole!!!!!

Really awesome!

TD
ps. Just in case you have been living in a cave for the last couple of years, that's Thomas Lang and it is highly rumored that he will become the leader in the recently formed WFD-UK. If so, it's my personal prediction that the UK will win the next WFD World Finals and take the Championship Belt across the waters.

[XtremeVelocity UK]

Hey TD, Ed here (Dir. WFD UK). You're 100% spot on, it's looking pretty good at present, we're definitely planning to bring a good challenge accross the pond and are more than keen to bring the WFD World Finals title back this way :-)

Had some great scores at Music Live this past weekend, especially on the feet. I reckon this lad (contest winner - feet) will probably crack the 1000 in the not too distant future. Really looking forward to getting a few chaps with solid 1000+ scores on hands throughout the WFD UK tour too!

'Gutted that I couldn't make PASIC this year, sounds like it went really well. Hope to be there and at other events in the area next year.

[NUTHA JASON]

don't forget to send me the dates ed. i'm training nearly every day.


j

[XtremeVelocity UK]

Hey NJ, will do, we'll be sending out a newsletter in the next few days. Check out the next issue of Rhythm mag, will have an article WFD UK, the Leicester event etc.

How are your 'numbers' coming on, 900 - 1000 yet?

[fasthands]

How do i enter this contest?

[rendezvous_drummer]

That's true about the clicks being too close to tell. My friend who is also a drummer said that there are pads that count how many strokes you are doin in a minute. He doesn't know where to find one and neither can I. Anyone know where?

[ThomasDee]

Hi Thomas - yeah (about the WFD article). i thought it was very well presented in MD - a good read.
As you probably know, I'm just back to NYC after being in the UK for DrummerLive. I am mixing an album by Jon Albrink that i am producing (you can hear a clip of one rough mix on my website under listening section - the song is titled "What Would You Give")/ I am playing on three songs (the New York sessions) of BB Kings latest album titled "80". This record was just released. I think it's a good album and BB IS 80 years old. What an incredible man!! I had a few gigs with Joan last month in Colorado at festivals - things will probably remain quiet with her now - though, a Christmas record that we did will be out shortly - it should be pretty cool for that kind of thing. I'm also recording some instrumental music - I guess you would call it jazz... with a guitarist and bass player that I used to play alot with when I lived in LA (13 years ago). That happens in six days late October. In less than a week, I'm traveling to Copenhagen to "beat up" a rhythm section as an artist in residence at the Rhythm University there. :D
November has me attending PASIC - just hanging out. Then (hopefully) I'll have some time off. I do have a Bill Champlin song sitting at my studio for more than 6 months now - I should get to that in November I hope! Also looking forward to some "down time" so that I can write some more... Thanks for asking!

Billy, Thanks for your indepth answer. Really good stuff! I didn't get to go to PASIC, but starting to see some really cool pics etc from the show. Did you make it? If so, was it FUN!

In light of the fact that more and more drummers, such as the recent news of Thomas Lang joining the Drumometer/WFD camp, do you ever see yourself working with the Drumometer simply as a teaching tool? How about entering the WFD?

Thanks for all of your teachings, articles and post. Please keep them coming.

TD

[jamndrummer]

rendezvous_drummer


Re: are you the WFD?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's true about the clicks being too close to tell. My friend who is also a drummer said that there are pads that count how many strokes you are doin in a minute. He doesn't know where to find one and neither can I. Anyone know where?

http://www.drumometer.com (http://) Bernard, problems with the script? Or is this a bad case of the head to keys operator error.

That is the URL to the site for everything you need to know.

[DogBreath]

Let's be honest guys, the WFD is a joke. It's a joke that makes it even harder for drummers being treated as musicians. Can you imagine a World's Fastest Saxaphone Player Competition? Piano player? Bass Player etc etc. Seriously who would care? The fact the some drummers take this crap seriously makes us all look stupid. We're supposed to be playing music and music isn't about sounding like machine gun fire. Do the 'winners ever play in bands? Do they ever play gigs? No wonder drum machines are so popular if drummers continue to position themselves as athletes instead of musicians. Lets talk about music and forget 'fastest'.
It would seem that quite a few drummers, pro and amateur, disagree with you. Especially the ones that are in bands and do gig. Notice I didn't say that your opinion is "crap" or "a joke" or "stupid." That's the way to express an opinion here.

[ThomasDee]

Let's be honest guys, the WFD is a joke. It's a joke that makes it even harder for drummers being treated as musicians. Can you imagine a World's Fastest Saxaphone Player Competition? Piano player? Bass Player etc etc. Seriously who would care? The fact the some drummers take this crap seriously makes us all look stupid. We're supposed to be playing music and music isn't about sounding like machine gun fire. Do the 'winners ever play in bands? Do they ever play gigs? No wonder drum machines are so popular if drummers continue to position themselves as athletes instead of musicians. Lets talk about music and forget 'fastest'.
HAHA! Do they ever play gigs?
http://www.drumometer.com/Images/Photos/ThomasLang.jpg
It seems you are possibly not up on who's all in the WFD, are you?

[NUTHA JASON]

OZjazzer
speed is just another tool for the tool box. actually WFD does not give you the top fastest speeds but the best over a minute. in short bursts we can go faster, but WFD is endurance ... endurance is just another tool for the tool box.
if speed is all someone does that is bad but it cannot hurt to have a battery of fast chops ready to go when the song calls for it.

j

[finnhiggins]

OZjazzer
speed is just another tool for the tool box. actually WFD does not give you the top fastest speeds but the best over a minute. in short bursts we can go faster, but WFD is endurance ... endurance is just another tool for the tool box.
if speed is all someone does that is bad but it cannot hurt to have a battery of fast chops ready to go when the song calls for it.

j

I think his point was valid. WFD is something that you're unlikely to ever see on any other instrument other than maybe guitar, and if it was guitarists competing to see who could shred a scale faster I think we'd be laughing at them too. I don't think over all it's a very good thing for the image of drummers as musicians.

Let's face it - it took until the 60s with people like Elvin and Tony for drummers to get the respect we deserved as all-around expressive musical contributors to a group. Before that it was either a supporting role or "Traps the drum wonder" showmanship, not that there's anything fundementally wrong with either. But it seems like expression is one of the most ignored aspects of drum education out there. Who apart from some of the older jazz drummers and Billy Ward are actively out there writing articles on developing musical creativity? "Creative" seems to be the most over-used word in the drums, when actually there's very little real creativity going on.

You see things like: "Oh yeah, play a paraddidle and then orchestrate it around the toms for a bit more creativity!". Creativity? Sounds like an orchestrated paradiddle to me! Creativity IMHO says Bill Bruford, John Bonham, Vinnie Colaiuta, Tony Williams, Elvin Jones... unique voices who developed and introduced new concepts of how to go about playing time, rather than just displaying a new level of chops freakery.

The reality is that as drummers we devote a lot less time to actually developing our own musical voices than we do developing blazing single stroke rolls. Look at recent developments in drumming - lots of guys are jumping on the drum-n-bass bandwagon now. Two points about that:

1) Who invented it? DJs, that's who. Not us. Why not? Why are we having to learn new ways to play from people with no real education in the history of drumming?
2) Everybody else got over it years ago, it's nothing like as hip as it was back in '97 or so.

Where are the new creative developments in drumming? Hard to find, that's where. But we have WFD roaming the world encouraging people to work harder, harder and harder on their bloody single stroke roll. Who cares? Why not try to find an awesome new way of drumming where single stroke rolls are virtually irrelevant? That'd be a much better contribution to the world as a whole, IMHO.

[jamndrummer]

Forum Members,

Although there has been much contraversy over the WFD, I am attending the contest this week. I would like to know if anyone would like me to write a report on it and take some pictures. Some of us (as myself) have never experienced a show, so I want to see what its all about and watch what takes place.

For those who may be interested, post what you would like to know so I can pay close attention to that area for notes and pictures that would be of interest to you.

[OZjazzer]

Actually the tone of some of the replies simply confirms what I think about the guys you often see huddled around the TV screen at the drum shop talking about whichever chops-mad drummer is on the playing on the DVD at the time. If you shut your eyes and listen to the level of the conversation for a minute - you could be forgiven for thinking they're watching stock car racing, gymnastics or a home renovation program - trust me MUSIC would hardly ever be mentioned. That's the frightening bit for me.

I play drums because I love music - I don't use music as an excuse to play drums. Thank god I know a lot of drummers who think the same way, some of whom, have thankfully joined in this discussion.

I remember talking to a local drummer about gigs etc and I was talking obout favourite grooves and he said "to be honest I just get through that stuff so I can do the big roar round the kit at the end of each song." That's sad.

[DogBreath]

It cracks me up when someone who is not interested in an activity says, "Who cares?" There are WFD competitions all over the place, write-ups in major industry magazines, web sites devoted to the subject, technology that is being advanced because of it . . . and some people still say, "Who cares?" Clearly quite a few people, so if you don't, then just say so.

I happen to know quite a few guitarists who try to see how quickly they can blaze through a solo by Satriani or Van Halen or Vai. Do I laugh at them? Of course not. They are having fun while improving their skills. Good for them. WFD competitors are doing the same thing.

Bottom line: we each get something out of drumming or we wouldn't be doing it. What you get out of it may not be what I get out of it. If I do a song just waiting for the part that I like, so what? That actually makes you sad? lol

[NUTHA JASON]

exactly. trust me MUSIC would hardly ever be mentioned. That's the frightening bit for me.

I play drums because I love music - I don't use music as an excuse to play drums. Thank god I know a lot of drummers who think the same way, some of whom, have thankfully joined in this discussion.


i think the problem is that you yourself have narrowed somewhat the feild of what could be called musical. i'll quote my last reply here...
if speed is all someone does that is bad but it cannot hurt to have a battery of fast chops ready to go when the song calls for it.

musicality is expression and communication. music can express and induce emmotion. excitement, awe, respect, jealousy, bliss etc etc...
i think a lot of those chops discussions take the music side as a given. like mechanics as opposed to drag racing fans. the public appreciate the speed of the car and the skill of the driver. the mechanics/engineers also do but they spend a lot of time thinking and discussing the engine and its modifications. most drummers think musically but also think of the separate skills that will broaden their pallet and give them more creative scope...thomas lang says he learnes the hard stuff so he is more confident on the easy chops.
i'm currently trying to maximise my single stroke rolls at the moment [...yes so i can roar around the drums at the end of a song (this is musical too - the audience love it - communication and emmotion are involved)...] and yes just for fun i would like to rank myspeed and endurance in the WFD charts, but also it means i am pulling off cleaner cleverer fills with bursts of colour when i am playing on slower songs. stuff i used to shy away from and rather do something more typical i now do because i know that it is in my toolkit.
i'll say it again...speed is AN ASPECT OF DRUMMING AND MUSIC. the trully musical question here is not whether speed is important, but rather WHEN should it be used. and when it should be used will you have it? will it be neat?

Where are the new creative developments in drumming? Hard to find, that's where. But we have WFD roaming the world encouraging people to work harder, harder and harder on their bloody single stroke roll. Who cares? IMHO.

come now finn. drumming is exploding with creativity. i'm constantly blown away by what the up and coming drummers like Benny Grebb are doing, plus just when i think i know an old master like dom famularo's style he completely tosses my theories out of the window by revealing another paradigm shift. never before has such a lot of shared material been available and has so many drummers concentrated their efforts on the mastery there of. drumming as a skill is becomming higher and higher in profile, where alot of people thought it would lessen in distinction with the advent of superbly programmable drums as time went by. the whole art is moving massively forward and exploring every corner of possibility...some are pretty, other corners are as Bernhard put it...'lawnmower' like . and as the musical industry moves away from genre to complex individualism so too has drumming. the race to build up a large set of useful skills by drummers worldwide is matched by the race to see how these skills (beats, fills and even those speedy rolls) can be combined and executed in new and unique ways. creativity is alive.

Why not try to find an awesome new way of drumming where single stroke rolls are virtually irrelevant? That'd be a much better contribution to the world as a whole,
and just for jokes...isn't this meg white's approach?

[OZjazzer]

Nutha you have summed up exactly what is wrong with many many drummers in the world. Please continue to roar round the kit and support the obvious silliness of WFD while a least some of us attempt to play something we like to call 'music'.

[DogBreath]

OZjazzer, please take note. This is the Drummers topic. It is for discussing drummers. [Edit: These threads have since been merged and moved to the appropriate topic] This thread was started by Billy Ward so that he could say hello and allow us a place to talk to and about him. If you want to beat your dead horse please use the search function to find a thread about WFD and continue there.

Your dismissive tone is really unnecessary and unwanted here. Your last post went beyond opinion and into insulting. This is not a forum to argue or be rude. It is a forum to discuss and celebrate, a place to seek help and share information. If you would like to continue this conversation in a respectful tone, please do it in the proper place. If you can't, then please leave. Thanks.

[OZjazzer]

Hey Thomas - I'm just back from DrummerLive (and totally jet-lagged...been up for more hours than I can count) but thought I'd try to respond. First of all, thanks!

About the WFD - I tried to get in there to post some comments (this was perhaps two years ago or more) to try to explain (defend) that i thought that Ron Spagnardi was being unfairly attacked. simple as that.
He was simply saying that music matters the most. He was a great guy. We drummers owe Ron Spagnardi alot because of his pursuit of having a durmmer's magazine - the very first magazine dedicated to drummers. This must not be under-appreciated!!! Mod. Drmr was the first!

AS far as the WFD goes... I think excellence in ANYTHING is worth noting / enjoying / complimenting. OK? I'm down with that. Many of the drummers who participate in the WFD are noted-great technicians, yet I personally have never heard most of them play in a band/play music - so I can't really comment on them as musicians. Have you heard them play in a band? Would you mind recommending a record to me of their playing? I'd enjoy listening to it.

My perspective is:
I am a drummer that is out there doing gigs mostly - recording/touring...
stuff like that. Lately, I admit to receiving great joy from my teaching - whether it is articles in MD mag, or clinics or masterclasses. I'm feeling warm and fuzzy to speak with you and others who look in on this discussion! My perspective on the speed thing is that it is good to go for speed - who could argue otherwise? But eventually, once some facility is achieved, tone and music will matter more. As for me, I am personally comfy with my speed. If I were to measure my single stroke roll solely for speed (which is something that I haven't practiced with a focus on speed for more than thirty years..I'm looking for tone when I play a single stroke roll) I'd guess that I can do somewhere around 800 strokes per minute - give or take a hun. That's a guess and frankly, I have no idea whether that would be considered good or bad by the WFD. But I'm very content with what I can do speed - wise. It works for me. Somedays, I hit an obstacle with speed and I THEN try to get faster with whatever I think I need.

HOw about this? Maybe it would be cool for the WFD to expand out of the single stroke roll and, for instance, see who can play the Long Roll while accenting the second note. Open to closed and back to open. Who would sound best doing that? In fact.. how about a contest where the long roll with the accented second note has to happen on a loosely tuned flappy floor tom instead of a tightly tuned snare drum? I mean, THAT takes chops!!!! Just a crazy thought...

I honestly think it is great that the WFD is helping to keep sticks in the hands of drummers that might not otherwise be too interested in spending the time it takes to have some chops. If striving for speed makes that happen, I think that is wonderful. Like I said before, excellence in anything is a great thing. I remember trying to get faster with my 26 rudiments when I was a kid. But, regarding speed or tempo, I'm glad that Led Zep/the Beatles/Creme/Jimi Hendrix/the Who/Radiohead/Miles Daivs/James Brown/Styevie Wonder and a million other musicians were not ENTIRELY concerned with speed. I love their chosen tempos on those songs!
So hopefully this is clear (which my not be the case because I am so tired now and sleep deprived)

This seems to me to be an over-discussed topic. Should we start a campaign against Jim Keltner because he doesn't fill enough? Speed is simply one isolated aspect of drumming - one isolated aspect of MUSIC. I have no idea what moves this WFD discussion forward. it makes me think of Monty Python's Life Of Brian - where some are following the sandal..others the gourd... I figure I'm definitely NOt making sense anymore - so I'll sign off. This is more than I typed on my OWN website tonight!!! :D
best wishes. (and going to bed now)
BW

OK this is what started this whole thing for me (on this thread). If you read between the lines I think Billy is still where he's always been on this topic. That's my take out on this and if that's the case I'm with him. Now Billy Ward is someone who really impresses me as a person who tells it like it is, and I am a huge fan because of his attitude to life, drumming and music. As for my rudeness, that was simply a reaction to my thoughts on music being called narrow. If this site can't stand some diverse views being discussed then please unsubscribe me now.

[DogBreath]

If this site can't stand some diverse views being discussed then please unsubscribe me now.
So far you have used the words "crap," "a joke," and "stupid," and you say that others are sad or silly simply because they feel differently than you. You weren't offering "diverse views," you were being rude and insulting.

There is no such thing as "unsubscribing" you, but if you are asking to be banned then I would be happy to oblige. Thanks for stopping by.

[NUTHA JASON]

Nutha you have summed up exactly what is wrong with many many drummers in the world. Please continue to roar round the kit and support the obvious silliness of WFD while a least some of us attempt to play something we like to call 'music'. what a sad person you must be. so serious. the fun side of drumming passed you by because of some idle snobbery about what you narrowly define as music. your eleventh post and you feel you know me enough to summarise my whole career so dismissively. have you not read through the hundreds of posts i have made which reveal that i am very much into music and also, ALSO, into the joy of drums.
i will not ban you, you are a junior who obviously has bitten off more than you can chew in terms of posting. have a read around this entire board before you post again. get a feel for the way we do things here and then think before typing anything. i look forward to you more mature approach.

j

[Laney]

I've noticed most of the FAST players use Traditional Grip.

Is this just co-incidence?

[Elvin4ever]

Ozjazzer, I hate to use this tone, but you are obviously clueless. I just got this fantastic Michigan WFD finals report from Senior Fulbright Professor of JAZZ Tom Smith who was the organizer of this event. Just so you know professor Smith has played with something like ten of the guys on drummerworld. These include JAZZ greats Buddy Rich and Louie Bellson who actually played in HIS band. Today, his 15 year old kid Matt set the new official 16 and under single strokes record in exhibition at this contest with a 1028. And even though I have never heard you play I kind of intuitively feel the kid is probably also a better jazz musician than you since his thoughts that I have heard expressed resonate with greater purity. It would be nice if changed your name on this forum. Folks, most jazz musicians have more class than this and do not behave in this matter, if he even plays jazz. Again forum members I apologize for my tone. This is a good WFD report. If you want to know one of the great lessons taught at WFD, read how the young kids learned their lessons for not paying closer attention to their rudimental technique, which is at the core of this thing within the context of education. Enjoy!

500 SWAMP MICHIGAN WFD
39 YEAR OLD KILBURNE IS GRAND CHAMPION
MATT SMITH SETS NEW 16 YEARS AND UNDER RECORD (1028)
16 YEAR OLD KLUNK FASTEST HANDS JR. CHAMP (916)
TELEVISION MAJOR SUCCESS
3 TV NEWS CREWS AND 4 NEWSPAPERS COVER EVENT
NEW TV INSTANT REPLAY USED FOR DISPUTED CALLS

Today (November 12), the city of Flint Michigan acquired a major case of World's Fastest Drummer fever, as 500 ravenous extreme percussion fans jammed the Mott College Memorial Auditorium to witness arguably the tightest produced WFD event outside of the NAMM competitions themselves. Along with wonderful scene change music provided by the internationally acclaimed Steelheads Steel Band and crisp 1970s Miles Davis fusion from the Mott College jazz Combo, there was quite a drum show. After seven weeks of regional preliminaries in five different locations, the top 33 of 121 Michigan area contestants were invited to compete in this first Michigan State Championship. The crowd was definitely in play the entire day, cheering emotionally charged performances and rooting on their favorites. Contestants with sharply defined personalities strutted on stage to booming theme music like WWE wrestlers, and for the first time in WFD history, big screen instant replay was successfully used to verify two questionable hands calls.

Grand Championship status for best competitor went to 39 year old Schwartz Creek resident Michael Kilburne, who won the fastest feet competition with a score of 814 over heavily favored Greg Soule, and took second place in hands (17 and over) with a score of 903. Kilburne's foot show was topped off by a furious conclusion that brought the appreciative crowd to its feet. Commenting on his 794 second place run, Soule was reflective but appreciative. "It was by far my worst run of the entire contest but I really enjoyed myself," he said. Seventeen year old Detroit resident Alex Morgan took third in the feet competition with 756.

Inexperience played a key role in the 17 and under hand finals, as 4 of the 8 finalists were disqualified for either buzzing or playing double strokes.15 year old Flint resident William Jones was a legitimate crowd favorite with an 890 run, supposedly good enough for second place. However, referee Jim Coviak immediately ordered the instant replay after he spotted what he believed was left hand buzzing. Slow motion identified the mistake and the initially disappointed crowd was quieted. "I was very glad we had this valuable tool," said contest organizer Tom Smith. "More than anything, it helps explain the contest to those who sincerely misunderstand." Unfortunately, the DQ controversies over shadowed 16 year old Toledo, Ohio resident Stephen Klunk's blistering 916 run, the highest hands score of the competition. "Stephen is a great competitor," said 16 and under record holder," Matt Smith. "I think he was the most consistent guy of the last six weeks. I think he should go to the NAMM championships anyway. He would be really good."

17 and over hands finals were settled by a tie breaker, after Kilburne and Flint Central High School drum instructor Noah Richardson tied with scores of 903. The issue was settled when Kilburne was disqualified for playing doubles. Richardson followed the DQ with a conservative run to take the main prize. Senior division favorite Randy Gacki (Detroit), a consistent 920s competitor, played his slowest round in the finals. Still, his 873 was good enough to take third place.

Top performance honors went to 15 year old Flint resident Matt Smith, who was a featured performer with the MC Jazz Combo, before setting a new 16 and under record with an official WFD hands exhibition run of 1028. Smith was ineligible for this competition because his father's sponsorship would have represented a conflict of interest. Knowledgeable WFD fans cheered the record, as big screen magnification demonstrated clean indisputable single strokes. "I don't know what the problem is with people wondering if my singles are legit. These really are clean strokes and I try to be careful. But this wasn't about me anyway. I was glad to see a lot of the people I know do well," he said. Smith scored two 1051s in recent preliminary exhibitions. But such scores are not officially recognized. "It was nice that people got to see Matt kick it so hard on those Miles Davis things before the contest started," said Steelheads performer and hands finalist Ben Schlatter. "He's much more than just some single strokes, and people got to see that."

Flint residents expressed immediate interest that Mott College WFD remain a permanent fixture. This was the fifth WFD event I have attended, including last summer's in Indianapolis, and this was one was easily the most enjoyable. It was fast paced, it was loud and it was wonderful," said Lansing music store manager Bonnie Hoggenbaum. Popular Flint radio personality Ced Lover hosted the event. "I had never seen this before," he said. "It was really incredible. The energy given off by these guys scares you," he said.

I was happy with all of it, but I am glad it's over." said organizer Tom Smith.

[DogBreath]

Great post Elvin, thanks.

[Sticksman]

I agree completely with Nutha Jason... excellent post. Music is all about what you have to say, about expressing in the most eloquent way possible feelings, whether about you, others, or the unseen around you. There is a reason music is called the Great Communicator, because everyone can understand it in their own way! Music is just abstract enough so that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it takes the form of whatever the person listening to it thinks.

Yeah, really deep, but it makes perfect sense to me, and whether or not those words do that sentiment justice is... up to you to decide.

It ties into the WFD, and things like that. It's an expression, albeit not as musical as some would like, but an expression nonetheless. The "bursts of color" and "flashes of speed" that NJ mentioned are just that, and depending on the music, it fits perfectly, giving the right amount of feel and life. It energizes the music, and everyone can agree with that, the exception being that if you're the type that thinks anything more complicated than 1 and 3 on the bass and 2 and 4 on the snare is overplaying.

Whatever, my point is that its another tool in your toolbox, that gives you the key to more chops. MUSICAL chops. Chops that display your technicality AND your musciality. A big problem on this forum, that I see, is that some drummers, particulary old-school drummers, seem to think that musciality and technicality are mutually exclusive. The fact is, they're not. Speed is nice, as are chops, and they all tie in to musical ability, in one way or the other.

Besides, the audience loves it! But of course, that's not the only reason drummers like it.

[Elvin4ever]

I think his point was valid. WFD is something that you're unlikely to ever see on any other instrument other than maybe guitar, and if it was guitarists competing to see who could shred a scale faster I think we'd be laughing at them too. I don't think over all it's a very good thing for the image of drummers as musicians.

Let's face it - it took until the 60s with people like Elvin and Tony for drummers to get the respect we deserved as all-around expressive musical contributors to a group. Before that it was either a supporting role or "Traps the drum wonder" showmanship, not that there's anything fundementally wrong with either. But it seems like expression is one of the most ignored aspects of drum education out there. Who apart from some of the older jazz drummers and Billy Ward are actively out there writing articles on developing musical creativity? "Creative" seems to be the most over-used word in the drums, when actually there's very little real creativity going on.



This is a well intended post with a lot of basis in fact. But here's the difference in obsessive rudimental practice and practicing really fast saxophone runs or high trumpet notes. Rudimental practice actually makes for a better percussionist. Non of the similar scenarios are applicable to other instruments. Practicing fast saxophone runs and brass high notes are counter productice and can even damage chops. Rudiments only help. I am sure that Elvin Jones and Tony Williams were grounded in rudimental study. They had to be to do what they did. I agree with TH Smith when he says that until WFD kids had to be forced or tricked into rudiment study. It is here where I see WFD making the most positive impact. But maybe it will take things like this weekend's WFD to make that dent.

[OZjazzer]

I'm not sure if I'm banned or not but If I may, I'd say thank you to finnhiggins for his excellent post. At least there are 2 of us who at basically agree about WFD. And a question for dogsbreath. Why am I allowed to be called 'clueless' and the poster is congratulated? I thought my language was much milder, and I am 'banned'. In Australia, 'clueless' is a very personal and very hurtful thing to to call another person. And finally. Look I'm a realist. I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much. Believe it or not there are valid arguments against things like WFD. My only regret is that I was not able to express them in a way that is acceptable to Drummerworld.

[finnhiggins]

I've been meaning to get to this for a while. I don't want to get involved in the ugly factor that's emerged elsewhere in the thread, but again I think this is an interesting topic so I'll try to weigh in and stay friendly...


i'm currently trying to maximise my single stroke rolls at the moment [...yes so i can roar around the drums at the end of a song (this is musical too - the audience love it - communication and emmotion are involved)...]


That's true - the audience does love it. But just because an audience loves something I'm not sure that ultimately qualifies it as particularly musical. The most popular song to close any gig with in New Zealand is "500 Miles", which if you've heard it should decry any conception that an audience loving something is any measure of musicality whatsoever. It's bashing moron-rock about getting drunk - which is naturally popular with extremely drunk people who can't comprehend anything simpler than four-on-the-floor and some quarter-note shouting over the top of it due to the alcohol leaking through their eardrums.

Not disagreeing with anything else here, just pointing out that audiences loving something and feeling emotion or communication doesn't necessarily make something less dumb.


come now finn. drumming is exploding with creativity. i'm constantly blown away by what the up and coming drummers like Benny Grebb are doing,


Good pick, he impresses me a lot. But I don't really think you can describe our instrument as "exploding with creativity". I watched an entire Glastonbury festival show back when I was in the UK and the entire time every single drummer played the exact same beat. I kid you not. I think I transcribed three minor variations in an hour, with the odd cymbal crash or tom fill interspersed. If guitarists played the exact same chord progression with the exact same voicing and no variation on every song they'd be fired in a minute, or the audience would leave. We get it easy, and we tend to rest on that much harder than we ought.

There are certainly a few creative drummers out there. But the emphasis is on few - even fairly average guitarists in no-name bands often do stuff that doesn't sound exactly like another song by another artist. Drummers don't do that. The problem is partially innate in our instrument - we play an instrument that is to some extent constrained by the lack of harmonic interplay, and roped in on the other side by the limitations of rhythm in a lot of music. So drummers have developed more technical aspects like timing, co-ordination and dynamic separation over actual creative aspects. The technical bar for sounding like a competent drummer is certainly far higher than on many other instruments.

But on the other hand, we've let ourselves get boxed in like this. There are so many ways of hitting stuff that it's not even funny, yet the repertoir most drummers have is horrifyingly tiny. For example, I work a lot with a hammered dulcimer player these days. Just as a standard part of the instrument he is able to sustain one hand playing 8th notes at constant speeds on one note while arpeggiating a chord in a rubato manner underneath it. There's no mathematical relationship between the subdivisions, it's like the whole John Hiseman / Thomas Lang "speed up the feet while slowing the hands" trick but betweeen the hands alone, and with expressive control in the phrasing of the arpeggio. This stuff is physically possible, but it's just not appearing in music. At least, not from drummers.

The other major area we've failed as musicians is in taking our art to the masses. We came close back in the 60s with Elvin and Tony really pushing the boundaries of what you could do in music with rhythm, and pushing it to the forefront of their respective bands. In jazz they succeeded - drummers changed the world of music. But since the Bonham and Gadd revolution there's been no major drumming innovation that has come from drummers and has changed music. Where's our Hendrix, our innovator who takes avant-garde concepts on the instrument and makes it part of popular culture? It seems all we can summon are the likes of Sandy Nelson or Buddy Rich. Not to disparage either, but they were popular and known for being drum showmen, not musical innovators pushing the world of rhythm out.

Look at where the really innovative stuff is happening in rhythm - stuff like Meshuggah involving complex opposing-time relationships between guitar and drums. Who writes it? A guitarist. How about Squarepusher? A bassist. Aphex Twin? An untrained gear nerd. Yet we should understand this stuff better than anybody, we have nothing else to worry about in terms of creativity. Why is so much creative rhythmic work coming from non-drummers? And why are most drummers solo albums derivative fusion adding so little to the world of rhythm that wasn't explored by Elvin and Tony some forty years ago now?

I can't see the creativity explosion. I can see a lot of amazing players, but few of them are really pushing to expand and improve the creativity of the next generation. As I mentioned before, Billy Ward is one. How many drum DVDs talk in a practical way about developing your own voice? How many drum DVDs mention how to play a single stroke roll? That ratio is unnerving, and certainly unique to our instrument.

[Bernhard]

I can't see the creativity explosion. I can see a lot of amazing players, but few of them are really pushing to expand and improve the creativity of the next generation.

I think Terreon Gully is showing some new ways - at least at PASIC some of the VERY Greats thinks so and spoke during the whole dinner about him....., see his Solo here with Christian McBride. What do you think of this Finn?

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/terreongully.html

Bernhard

[NUTHA JASON]

OZjazzer
I'm not sure if I'm banned or not but If I may, I'd say thank you to finnhiggins for his excellent post. At least there are 2 of us who at basically agree about WFD. And a question for dogsbreath. Why am I allowed to be called 'clueless' and the poster is congratulated? I thought my language was much milder, and I am 'banned'. In Australia, 'clueless' is a very personal and very hurtful thing to to call another person. And finally. Look I'm a realist. I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much. Believe it or not there are valid arguments against things like WFD. My only regret is that I was not able to express them in a way that is acceptable to Drummerworld.

nobody has banned you or you wouldn't have been able to post.
DW forum is not aligned with WFD. we are all individuals here. your mistake was indeed with how you expressed your opinion. read back in this thread and see. the first time i replied to your earliest post i replied in a friendly and informative way. hardly reading my post you went on the attack. you decided you had me figured and lumped everyone who has a different opinion to you together and then chose to basically tell us we don't know what music is. and you, a new poster who has no credentials at all here. we know nothing about you and you expect us to value a fairly harsh opinion. this IS clueless behavior...obtain clues from a bit of forum reading first mate.

to finn
That's true - the audience does love it. But just because an audience loves something I'm not sure that ultimately qualifies it as particularly musical. The most popular song to close any gig with in New Zealand is "500 Miles", which if you've heard it should decry any conception that an audience loving something is any measure of musicality whatsoever. It's bashing moron-rock about getting drunk - which is naturally popular with extremely drunk people who can't comprehend anything simpler than four-on-the-floor and some quarter-note shouting over the top of it due to the alcohol leaking through their eardrums.


right here we have to agree to disagree. fundamentally you and i seem to disagree with what the term 'musical' is. for me music is a creative expression and communication, a media for transferring and sharing emotion or ideas. i think for you it rests more heavily on expression. 500 miles is musical simply because it is so popular. i play it twice a week for drunk crowds and we get a huge response. now, granted this is not a discerning audience who have gathered to evaluate a piece of music. but then drums are not always classical as in the context of high jazz. drums are also, ALSO a raucus fun thundering instrument with a primal voice that belongs to everyone.

Not disagreeing with anything else here, just pointing out that audiences loving something and feeling emotion or communication doesn't necessarily make something less dumb

true enough. and there it is. for me music is for dumb (drunk)people too. ha ha. sometimes our instrument really is the oldest musical thing in the world.

But since the Bonham and Gadd revolution there's been no major drumming innovation that has come from drummers and has changed music. Where's our Hendrix, our innovator who takes avant-garde concepts on the instrument and makes it part of popular culture? It seems all we can summon are the likes of Sandy Nelson or Buddy Rich. Not to disparage either, but they were popular and known for being drum showmen, not musical innovators pushing the world of rhythm out.



this is brilliant observation. (ozjazzer: see how finn, although disagreeing is also, a) a great poster, and b) has loads of cred here). i agree. sigh. i suppose we have to face perhaps an uncomfortable possibility that the mass appeal of our instrument - creativity wise - has been well and truly explored, with just a little fringe stuff left. guys like terry bozzio are like hendrix, but so far off from what most people will find agreeable that while being amazing his drumming is not mass appealing, heck even to drummers he is too much at times.

i think the creativity in terms of drums comes down to choice. what do you play here and there in a song. i get the feeling drumming is split into to two fields (like our 'musical' argument) on the one hand you get the creative drumming which mainly is impressive to people who know something about percussion (pasic and namm crowds, then benny grebs, the bozzio-like old guard, progressive drumming in general, solos etc) and then you get essential drumming which is the stuff that does the job and appeals to the masses and is not necessarily new (500 miles and all the other simple fun rocking) but actually the ancient thump of the fire and bone.

as drummers we are wise to keep our feet firmly in both fields. i enjoy drumming 500 miles as much as i enjoy trying to make up a new intro for an original song by for instance playing a fill completely backwards. i enjoy the thrill of trying to get my simple singlestroke speed up, as much as i do trying to play an inverted paradiddle in triplets while keeping a straight ostinato on my feet.
simply put, i love drumming ...simple or complex, new or rehashed old. i want it all.

...and speed is as much a part of the whole thing as anything else.

j

[Elvin4ever]

Why am I allowed to be called 'clueless' and the poster is congratulated? I thought my language was much milder, and I am 'banned'..
I will be very glad to address this. In the first place, I think my minor bite was allowed because after several posts I have always taken the high road. I have in the past provided some rather extensive educational posts and have been straight with the other forum members. I don't slap people around just to do it. Your language was couched in such a way as to be continuously hurtful. You implied and for all practical purposes said that anyone who disagreed with you was less than intelligent. Notice my last reply to finnhiggins. I think he has some good points there and I consider him an intelligent and well reasoned person, although I do not agree with everything he says. He is also very articulate and an asset to any percussion discussion.

[/QUOTE]In Australia, 'clueless' is a very personal and very hurtful thing to to call another person.[/QUOTE]

Sir, you can't have it both ways. In my opinion you came to the debate with a head of steam and planned to release it on anyone who was in your way, while your only plan of administration was to put people like me in my place with one word comebacks already addressed here. You also chose not to read the previous threads. If you had read them, you would know that I have many reservations about the WFD. But at present marketing being as it is, most of the top young guys here in the States do it after they have been grounded in rather sound musical fundamentals. Yes, you have non musical wild men at these events, but the winners are always top flight guys. With that said, I believe that an inevitable WFD embrace with an emphasis on young people learning rudiments is the reasoned approach.

[/QUOTE]clueless.[/QUOTE]

Well sir, what is it exactly?
1. I do not think dogbreath was even commenting on my reaction to your insults. He was thanking me for an extensive WFD report in the WFD thread.
2. I point out the extensive high end jazz representation in the WFD to a self proclaimed jazz musician and you gloss over it as if it were never said. I have also pointed to many instances where the WFD's youngest name competitor is heavily and successfully immersed in Tony Williams and Elvin Jones influences...nothing.
3. You react only to the parts of finn's post that you thought were most in line with your own and just pretended that my respectful reply to an always respectful poster never ocurred.

[/QUOTE] Look I'm a realist. I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much.[/QUOTE]

I seriously doubt Bernhard even knows Boo McAffee. Conspiracy theory tacts have been used on other sites.

[/QUOTE]Believe it or not there are valid arguments against things like WFD. My only regret is that I was not able to express them in a way that is acceptable to Drummerworld.[/QUOTE]

As previously mentioned, so do I. In fact I will bet there is not a single WFD Kool Aid drinker on this entire forum. And as far as I can see you are still able to express your opinions in Drummerworld, slams and all. But I think you should know this. Drummerworld is a high end site that has a forum filled with nice people. They don't go in for this troll attack stuff, and it does seem that your WFD attacks were raised in such a way as to get an angered reaction. Honestly, the two of us are into the same music and I would be interested in having a reasoned discussion with you if I could see the more tempered approach. As for me this is as sharp tongued as I ever want to get.

[Bernhard]

Quote:
....I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much.

....I seriously doubt Bernhard even knows Boo McAffee. Conspiracy theory tacts have been used on other sites.

Answer:

Drummerworld is not aligned with WFD. I know Boo McAffee and of course the whole thing and the discussion around it. I appreciate every effort somebody makes.

I think it would be a nice thing for me to have nice singlestrokerolls and lay them down then around the drumset like Nat Townsley or Dennis Chambers and put them into nice funky grooves...but unfortunately I started too soon with paradiddles, so the singles are lost a bit.

Also Charlie Watts loves very much WFD, he beats every records. His trick is, to leave out the second and the fourth beat - and he grooves.

So perhabs I suggest: Take all a break, go down to the practice-room for a while to cool off, then come back and have fun fun fun.....

Bernhard

[fourstringdrums]

Quote:
....I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much.

....I seriously doubt Bernhard even knows Boo McAffee. Conspiracy theory tacts have been used on other sites.

Answer:

Drummerworld is not aligned with WFD. I know Boo McAffee and of course the whole thing and the discussion around it. I appreciate every effort somebody makes.

I think it would be a nice thing for me to have nice singlestrokerolls and lay them down then around the drumset like Nat Townsley or Dennis Chambers and put them into nice funky grooves....but unfortunately I started too soon with paradiddles, so the singles are lost a bit.

Also Charlie Watts loves very much WFD, he beats every records. His trick is, to leave out the second and the fourth beat - and he grooves.

So perhabs I suggest: Take all a break, go down to the practice-room for a while to cool off, then come back and have fun fun fun.....

Bernhard

Great point. I think too much worry is put into WFD and whether or not it's ruining drumming as we know it. For decades now there have been drummers who either had it in their whole or part interest to concentrate on playing as fast as they can. While I don't think that young kids today should look at WFD at think that's all there is to drumming, I do think attaining speed is important. It's like being able to walk, but you can't run if you have to save your life. I do feel confident though that beside the kids to worship WFD, there are other young drummers who are growing up appreciating just grooving and being in the pocket. I'm 24 and that's what I appreciate most about drumming. In my younger drumming years speed was the only thing on my mind. I wish I had known then that the guys I went to high school with who were just about speed and NOTHING else, were no one to be idolized because they weren't seeing the whole picture.

[DogBreath]

Believe it or not there are valid arguments against things like WFD. My only regret is that I was not able to express them in a way that is acceptable to Drummerworld.
My friend, I could not agree with you more. And thanks for the chuckle.

[Elvin4ever]

Quote:
....I realise now that Drummerworld is very much aligned with WFD. My mistake was not realising how much.

....I seriously doubt Bernhard even knows Boo McAffee. Conspiracy theory tacts have been used on other sites.

Answer:

Drummerworld is not aligned with WFD. I know Boo McAffee and of course the whole thing and the discussion around it. I appreciate every effort somebody makes.

I think it would be a nice thing for me to have nice singlestrokerolls and lay them down then around the drumset like Nat Townsley or Dennis Chambers and put them into nice funky grooves...but unfortunately I started too soon with paradiddles, so the singles are lost a bit.

Also Charlie Watts loves very much WFD, he beats every records. His trick is, to leave out the second and the fourth beat - and he grooves.

So perhabs I suggest: Take all a break, go down to the practice-room for a while to cool off, then come back and have fun fun fun.....

Bernhard
Bernhard's got it right. Thanks. It's a fun topic, and an interesting debate. I just do not want to get to the point where every drum forum bans this topic because of the ire it sometimes provokes. After all, it is currently the most popular debate in the percussion world. Just look at the hits it gets. It would be wrong for the top percussion site on the net to ignore it. Like drum corps debates of 30 years ago this thing isn't going away. I would as pros like to continue the discussion on how to best deal with both the positive and negative aspects. I think Drummerworld passed this first volatility test very well. Part of the WFD problem is that it gives off a pretty grim first impression to serious musicians, which prompts instantaneous reactions from those not totally up on the debate. Mr. McAffee will probably need to work on that.

[ThomasDee]

Can't wait to see the results at Michigan WFD. Here's 'The Story' at http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/11/drumming-as-extreme-sport.html

Hottest thing on the web this week! It's doing like 100,000's hits daily on various major blogs. It's incredible! Some narrow minded folks called WFD a dying fad some 6 years ago, well, guess what they are simply eating **** now! This thing is hotter than Paris Hilton's thong, oh wait maybe she doesn't wear .............................

LOL!
TD

[stixman46]

Well I don't know about all the arguing back and forth about WFD, but I just became a DW member about 30 minutes ago and before that I didn't even know there was such a thing as WFD. So already my knowledge of drumming has been expanded! I am now very intriqued by the WFD competition and will certainly find out more about it. It sounds interesting. Thanks for the interesting reading.

[ThomasDee]

Well I don't know about all the arguing back and forth about WFD, but I just became a DW member about 30 minutes ago and before that I didn't even know there was such a thing as WFD. So already my knowledge of drumming has been expanded! I am now very intriqued by the WFD competition and will certainly find out more about it. It sounds interesting. Thanks for the interesting reading.
Welcome and no arguments left about WFD. I was just having some fun. I called Boo tonight and he told me about some calls from some friends about a site they run called music thing in the UK. Check it out at http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/11/drumming-as-extreme-sport.html

If you have ever watched 'JackAss' one of the guys is called WEEMAN and he's really into the WFD (seen on many WFD videos) and so those guys are now giving him crap and there is a sort of rivalry within the camp. Just more fun stuff!

Check it out at http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/11/drumming-as-extreme-sport.html

Welcome! and have FUN!

TD

[NUTHA JASON]

as i sit here on telly there is a wildlife documentary and they are talking about how amazingly fast humming birds are....'there wings beat 1000 times a minute'. now thats not so impressive since we know of some drummers who can top 1200 strokes. my question is do guys like minneman and sandoval etc have to consume their weight in nectar every 24 hours?
j

http://www.buenavistatownship.org/Photos/Ruby%20throated%20hummingbird.jpg

[aahznightsky]

as i sit here on telly there is a wildlife documentary and they are talking about how amazingly fast humming birds are....'there wings beat 1000 times a minute'. now thats not so impressive since we know of some drummers who can top 1200 strokes. my question is do guys like minneman and sandoval etc have to consume their weight in nectar every 24 hours?
j

http://www.buenavistatownship.org/Photos/Ruby%20throated%20hummingbird.jpg


hey that's right! Thats pretty cool how some of us are actually faster than the hummingbirds cuz they're wicked fast! Maybe drummers will be able to fly in the future...

[jamndrummer]

Can't wait to see the results at Michigan WFD. Here's 'The Story' at http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/...eme-sport.html (http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/11/drumming-as-extreme-sport.html)

by ThomasDee

http://www.kenoshadrummers.com/wfdscores.htm

[NUTHA JASON]

hey ed is doing a great job for the uk wing of WFD...check out this cool website still under construction. he even put me in there. ta eddie.,

j

http://www.drummerbuzz.co.uk/index.htm (http://www.drummerbuzz.co.uk/index.htm)

[NUTHA JASON]

i've just watched a hilarious clip of mike mangini doing a solo. he's fantastic. his one handed roll is faster than my own fastest two handed buzz roll!
i'll see if i can get a link to it and post it.
j
here it is:

http://rapidshare.de/files/8624510/steve_vai_-_mike_mangini_drum_solo.mpg.html (http://rapidshare.de/files/8624510/steve_vai_-_mike_mangini_drum_solo.mpg.html)

[ThomasDee]

as i sit here on telly there is a wildlife documentary and they are talking about how amazingly fast humming birds are....'there wings beat 1000 times a minute'. now thats not so impressive since we know of some drummers who can top 1200 strokes. my question is do guys like minneman and sandoval etc have to consume their weight in nectar every 24 hours?
j

http://www.buenavistatownship.org/Photos/Ruby%20throated%20hummingbird.jpg
NJ and gang, how is everybody. Been really busy on this end. NJ, funny you mention this because there actually is some footage around somewhere of Discovery channel in canada taking Tim Waterson in a lab along with a humming bird and checking while comparing his feet to the speed of the humming bird. I'll see if there is a link somewhere to this. Or if Tim is on the forum maybe he can tell us.

Are any of you guys goint to the WFD @ NAMM in Anaheim this Jan. ?

ThomasDee

[finnhiggins]

Well, I had a crack at a Drumometer today and I'm most officially not even close to being the WFD - 822 being my number for singles.

That said, having watched a few people in the shop having a go at it I'm of the opinion that the drumometer is actually not that useful in promoting good technique. It measures numbers of strokes, but it does NOT measure accuracy of timing, dynamics, or tempo. Similarly it doesn't have any kind of measure of good technique - in order to achieve that 822 I actually ended up using a technique that was objectively worse than my usual one (which got me somewhere around 780 or so) but which enabled me to play marginally faster for relatively short periods of time.

Watching people in the shop it seemed to be almost universally the case that people turned tense and saw their technique deteriorate notably during the minute on the drumometer. Most people walked away making pained faces and rubbing somewhere (neck, back, arms).

I certainly wouldn't buy one. I'd rather just try to work my usual way on playing 200bpm for a minute, with emphasis on relaxation and clean execution rather than just strokes/min. A metronome still seems like an infinitely more useful device.

(Oh, and PS: 822 is my time for trad grip, despite being a matched player most of the time. In matched I couldn't top 813. So there might be something to the argument that trad is somehow inherantly faster)

[DogBreath]

Are any of you guys goint to the WFD @ NAMM in Anaheim this Jan. ?
Yes, I'll be there.
.

[Tim Waterson]

NJ and gang, how is everybody. Been really busy on this end. NJ, funny you mention this because there actually is some footage around somewhere of Discovery channel in canada taking Tim Waterson in a lab along with a humming bird and checking while comparing his feet to the speed of the humming bird. I'll see if there is a link somewhere to this. Or if Tim is on the forum maybe he can tell us.

Are any of you guys goint to the WFD @ NAMM in Anaheim this Jan. ?

ThomasDee
In regards to the Discovery channel interview go to www.drumradio.com as Rick was kind enought to post the Audio portion from the show.
Merry Christmas and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[NUTHA JASON]

thanks.

any WFD guys here who own a Drumometer? check this cool exercise i made up using mine here:

http://jasonhorsler.tripod.com/id10.html
and click the link: Drumometer Bursts CLICK HERE.

when you get there.
j

[Ramsh]

I already took part in the austrian wfd competition in 2004
I played about three years only Metal and I was the first who reached 1000.
I got 1009 strokes in 60 seconds, two guys got more in the next month and I also practiced this one month with a practice pad and a clock, I just watched how long 1 second was and played first 8 strokes LRLRLRLR (I'm lefthanded) in this second and then I doubled the tempo to get smooth 16 strokes per second and practiced that for 60 seconds. This was the first step.
Next I tried 10 strokes per second LRLRLRLRLR and doubled it too, but it was much harder to practice as 16, so I tried to combine 1 sec 10 notes and one sec 20 notes and practiced that alot. After 1 month I reached as first austrian person 1100 strokes, end result: 1104
http://www.drumhouse.at/forum/thread.php?id=578&start=31

I think I tried about 10 times the last day (the second and last day I took part), so they looked because they thought that you can play 60sec in a fast tempo one time, but this wasn't my goal. My goal still is to play relaxed fast and I want to use it for my drumming any time.
The first try on the second day was about 1050 because my fingers were cold, this is a main problem for me, my cold hands, I have to move and need a warm room to get warm hands, but after the first I already got the first place with about 1085 and they said, ok you have won, I said no, I practiced to get 1100, so I got 3 times!!! exactly 1100, one time 1101 and one time 1104, I got my record on the 5th run.
I think if I would practice again that much I could also get 1200, but I have no money for a drumometer now and the speed isn't a problem because your fingers are fast. I already had fast fingers because I play 9 years clarinet and my fingers are relaxed and I can play a long time fast, but I have to practice to make less errors because on the 1104 run I lost about 20 strokes in 3 seconds because of an error.
Hope this helps abit and have fun because I think that speed is a useful tool for drumming
On the 1100 runs I lowered the tempo abit and played smooth 60 secs. On the 1104 I tried as fast as possible and I think without errors there were 1150 possible, but who knows.

[NUTHA JASON]

that's a great story. in another year you could be at mangini speed. someone buy this fella a drumometer!
j

[Dr Drums]

OK i pulled out 111, which is pretty nice i'd say.

[NUTHA JASON]

111 what? stokes per minute? nah. 8ths at 111b/min. easy. 16ths? still easy. 32nds? now that is good (888 strokes)

j

[Reflux own your mum]

I already took part in the austrian wfd competition in 2004
I played about three years only Metal and I was the first who reached 1000.
I got 1009 strokes in 60 seconds, two guys got more in the next month and I also practiced this one month with a practice pad and a clock, I just watched how long 1 second was and played first 8 strokes LRLRLRLR (I'm lefthanded) in this second and then I doubled the tempo to get smooth 16 strokes per second and practiced that for 60 seconds. This was the first step.
Next I tried 10 strokes per second LRLRLRLRLR and doubled it too, but it was much harder to practice as 16, so I tried to combine 1 sec 10 notes and one sec 20 notes and practiced that alot. After 1 month I reached as first austrian person 1100 strokes, end result: 1104
http://www.drumhouse.at/forum/thread.php?id=578&start=31

I think I tried about 10 times the last day (the second and last day I took part), so they looked because they thought that you can play 60sec in a fast tempo one time, but this wasn't my goal. My goal still is to play relaxed fast and I want to use it for my drumming any time.
The first try on the second day was about 1050 because my fingers were cold, this is a main problem for me, my cold hands, I have to move and need a warm room to get warm hands, but after the first I already got the first place with about 1085 and they said, ok you have won, I said no, I practiced to get 1100, so I got 3 times!!! exactly 1100, one time 1101 and one time 1104, I got my record on the 5th run.
I think if I would practice again that much I could also get 1200, but I have no money for a drumometer now and the speed isn't a problem because your fingers are fast. I already had fast fingers because I play 9 years clarinet and my fingers are relaxed and I can play a long time fast, but I have to practice to make less errors because on the 1104 run I lost about 20 strokes in 3 seconds because of an error.
Hope this helps abit and have fun because I think that speed is a useful tool for drumming
On the 1100 runs I lowered the tempo abit and played smooth 60 secs. On the 1104 I tried as fast as possible and I think without errors there were 1150 possible, but who knows.

wow, thats some speedy drumming. you seem to have a natural talent for this, get a drumometer!

[Ramsh]

I don't really need a Drumometer because I trigger all of my drums and soon the cymbals too.
I could record per midi with a tempo of 60 with 4/4 for 15 bars and set the trigger module to start recording after the first hit and so I it's possible to record bass and snare at the same time for example and I just have to load the midi file on a pc and in Cubase for example I can look how many midi notes/strokes I have done in this 15 bars.
I think to try 2000 strokes in 60 seconds with hands and feet together. :)

[Dr Drums]

111 what? stokes per minute? nah. 8ths at 111b/min. easy. 16ths? still easy. 32nds? now that is good (888 strokes)

j

32nds .................................................. .

[NUTHA JASON]

then we are about the same speed dude. heck i want to crack 1000. working like heck on my stamina and technique.
j

[Dr Drums]

then we are about the same speed dude. heck i want to crack 1000. working like heck on my stamina and technique.
j
hhh guess so man :) keep it up

[Scatman]

I see a picture of Thomas Lang with the WFD gents
Is Thomas a WFD guy now?

[ThomasDee]

Yes, I'll be there.
.
There's a chance I might be going, but for the past couple of months they have been using me in post rather shooting. I just did the post on The Richard and Judy show for WFD-TV and it was really a blast! Teryl (sp?) was so cool, seemed like a true Brit. He called the WFD 'TOTALLY BONKERS' which seemed like a Monty Python type comment and broke Judy to pieces. The director Ed Freitas is doing some marvalous things for WFD-UK division and his site is www.drummerbuzz.com for any of you in the UK want to compete or fans who just want to watch some fast pace action.

Look for some new WFD footage at WFD-TV coming soon. I'm working on some new world records from PASIC 05 in Nov. yes that is how far behind the guys are. Pat Patrillo sets a new WFD World Flam record and Randy Briggs (if you haven't seen this 17 year old kid catch him, he's winning everything including DCI fastest and DCI solo comps) sets several split records, meaning he and one of his buds do like paradiddles each using only one hand and interacting with the other to make the full pattern. Really quite something to see. I think they do singles double and paradiddle split or team records. One playing the right and the other the left. Just now capturing the footage so will be out faily soon.

The problem is by the time I get through this pile of tapes they will be back from NAMM with another pile. Oh well, as Boo tells me "Son, it beats roofing!" haha!

DB, even if I can't make it please go by the WFD booth, I think it is 4799 in hall 'C' and ask for Boo or Craig. I've told them all about you guys and they are really nice guys. Maybe you can do a story on this year's finals for DW?

Ok, well I have seen tons of stuff on here I want to respond to, so, off I go.

TD

[ThomasDee]

I don't really need a Drumometer because I trigger all of my drums and soon the cymbals too.
I could record per midi with a tempo of 60 with 4/4 for 15 bars and set the trigger module to start recording after the first hit and so I it's possible to record bass and snare at the same time for example and I just have to load the midi file on a pc and in Cubase for example I can look how many midi notes/strokes I have done in this 15 bars.
I think to try 2000 strokes in 60 seconds with hands and feet together. :)
Take it from me, NJ and the many others that learned this lesson the hard way. Don't hassle with trying to do the math while most of the time fooling yourself because what is supposed to be and what is actual are most likely two different things. NJ?

Do yourself a favor and simply buy a model II Drumometer. It comes with a metronome and reset footswitch etc and will show you exactly where you are. No guess work! I remember seeing the great Kenny Aronoff at NPI drum school working out on the Drumometer and saying "WOW! this thing will truly humble you."

TD

[ThomasDee]

In regards to the Discovery channel interview go to www.drumradio.com as Rick was kind enought to post the Audio portion from the show.
Merry Christmas and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

Tim, it's Tommy. hey dude what up? Isn't there some clips around somewhere of you on the discovery channel? if I remember right some in your video, but I thought there were some on your site. Any link would be awesome. How are you doing? Can we look for any new feet records at upcoming NAMM?

Best of luck!
TD

[ThomasDee]

then we are about the same speed dude. heck i want to crack 1000. working like heck on my stamina and technique.
j
NJ, you will get it Bro. hey have you heard any new dates for WFD-UK events?

TD

[ThomasDee]

thanks.

any WFD guys here who own a Drumometer? check this cool exercise i made up using mine here:

http://jasonhorsler.tripod.com/id10.html
and click the link: Drumometer Bursts CLICK HERE.

when you get there.
j
NJ, love the site and the upcoming book looks awesome. Best of luck with it. Do you have any clips of your Drumometer work outs up on the site? Maybe I missed them so, I'll go back and double check. Again. great site!

TD

[NUTHA JASON]

hey that's a good idea but i would need a little thumbnail in the corner showing the readout. i'll see what i can do.
j

ps: thanks for the compliments.

[Ashbash]

holy....... how do u do it? i can only manage 8 @ 85b/m
could someone send me a photo of their grip? and stick action?

[ThomasDee]

holy....... how do u do it? i can only manage 8 @ 85b/m
could someone send me a photo of their grip? and stick action?
NJ's site is awesome. Plus there are tons of WFD related sites that are heavy into the technical side of gaining speed. Please as Boo has beat into all our heads constantly, it's not about speed it's about technique. Technique first, speed is only the result.

Check out www.artverdi.com Art is one of my favorites, great guy and a master of the traditional grip. They call him the 'GodFather' within WFD. Also www.drumskillz.com www.timwaterson.com for the feet. www.tigerbill.com There's tons of stuff out there just go to Google. www.moderndrummer.com is even offering up some WFD technique related things. Oh, www.drummerbuzz.com and Terl Bryant, also what an inspiration this guy Terl is. Check out his site at www.terlbryant.co.uk/ I haven't been into all the God stuff at such a early age, but this guy is really a gateway to some great concepts. No BS.

Probably and especially if you play traditional grip Art Verdi is your man. But hey check them all out. Anything WFD is good, contrary to what others may say, I know these guy's hearts and it is only for you to improve if you are a drummer and to be entertained if you are a spectator. Or BOTH. It's just 'funucation' or something I guess.

TD

[Scatman]

I read about a kid Matt Smith around 15 years old who plays traditional grip also with the wfd not just Art Verdi

[ThomasDee]

I read about a kid Matt Smith around 15 years old who plays traditional grip also with the wfd not just Art Verdi
Matt is definately one of the kids everyone is looking at this year, but the 'GodFather' is in a class of his own. No comparison I wouldn't think. If you have seen Art's videos he has underwear laid around the room older than this kid.

It will be great to see what Matt does though, reported to run well over 1000 at 16. Art, I think everybody knows what he'll do. Mangini and many others play traditional grip also. The kid is gonna be one every one will be checking out. No Doubt!

TD

[Tim Waterson]

Tim, it's Tommy. hey dude what up? Isn't there some clips around somewhere of you on the discovery channel? if I remember right some in your video, but I thought there were some on your site. Any link would be awesome. How are you doing? Can we look for any new feet records at upcoming NAMM?

Best of luck!
TD
Merry Christmas,NJ, Tommy and all the drummers at DRUMMERWORLD>>>>>>>
Tommy,
Yes,Some of the discovery channel stuff is on the WFD video
Of course I am back practicing and I can hold my foot motion even? we'll see.
As you stated earlier about the record yes it is hard to break 1030 but we all do it at home when NO one is watching.LOL
Records are made to be broken so we wiill see what happens this year.
If someone breaks my record then I have 6 months to practice to get it back.LOL
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com