My rant on today's pop music

[Deltadrummer]

I initiated the idea on several prog boards that the legacy of 70s prog, esp ELP, was not neo-prog but heavy metal and you know the reaction I got. You are definitely preaching to the choir. By 1978-79, none of the big bands were producing anything of substance, except for Rush, Look at what you had, Yes, Tormato, Tull Stormwatch, ELP Love Beach, Genesis Duke, Floyd The Wall. Yes, I bought all those albums. Fool me once. I am still no big fan of The Wall, sorry if that offends anyone. I did like later Genesis up until Genesis '83. It certainly wasn't progressive. My thesis was that the metallic, virtuostic sound of much 1980s prog metal is heard on Brain Salad Surgery. Tommy Lee spun his drum set, Keith Emerson spun his piano. It goes back to Crimson through Black Sabbath and voila, Peter Sinfield is on those albums, too.

I was going to ask you what you thought of Metallica. In 1984, I was at a cafe with a 14 year old girl. I asked her who was going to be the next great band, and she said Metallica, I argued and she insisted. That was the moment I knew that I would get out of touch with the younger generation. Of course, she was right, and now looking back, I should have been more open-minded. In retrospect, they are better than I ever gave them credit for.

[DrumEatDrum]

Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.

And holy cow, what an album at the time. They're playing thrash in 7/4. They're throwing in bars of 5/4 into the mix. Lars is going over the bar line, then playing a fill to land back on the 1. It was complex, powerful, epic, raw and refined at the same time.

So yeah, I went back and got the back catalog. I was a huge fan. I've seen them maybe 15 times. Occasionally driving a few hours to see them.

But, like many fans, I was disappointed in Load. And then why release Re-Load?
I saw them right around that time, and they mostly played material from Ride the Lightening and Master of Puppets. It was if even they knew their newer material sucked.

And sorry, St Anger was the worst piece of crap I've ever heard in my life. I refuse to spend another dime on that band until they send me a refund check for that garbage.

Still, Ride the Lightening never gets old. Some great songs on that album.

[Pollyanna]

My only issue with the prog doco was that it was obvious the maker was a guitar-head. Endless guitar melodies, which is one of the less interesting aspects of prog for me.

I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.

Most symphonic stuff usually doesn't do it for me either, but I really like the fusion and ethno-influenced styles and the more experimental things - most Crimson, Zappa, Beefheart, Henry Cow, psychedelic Floyd, Soft Machine, Gong, early Tubes, Bowie's Berlin albums, Focus, Quiet Sun ... great music.

Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).

As with modern jazz, prog requires an educated ear. To the untrained ear that loves Top 40 wallpaper, prog and jazz sound messy, confused, overcomplicated and pointless.

As radio programmers reduced the variety of styles they'd play, people's ears became less open to the unusual. Yet mainstream artists have always fed off the more inventive groups on the fringe, reinventing the others' experiments in a more commercially palatable way. Thank deity for the internet or fringe music would be totally starved of exposure.

[Deltadrummer]

Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.



In 1978, I was in awe of Van Halen as was everybody, and in 1984 I would have said that the biggest band would be U2, so I wasn't totally off the mark. But I wonder if some of the awe factor is lost with age. After the dense winter of Poison, Motley and the W bands, I did hear a refreshing breadth of creativity in GNR; but nothing that was going to give me the same awe and 'being floored' as in earlier days. Anyway, I had seen Aerosmith, and the thought of watching five drunks on stage was certainly not welcoming. Their reunion will probably be the best the band has every played, now that they are clean and sober, and also a lot more experienced.





I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.


Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).


ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.

[Strangelove]

Honestly, I like everything from prog to funk to r&b to jazz to techno to punk rock to classical to indigenous drum groups that nobody here would ever listen to. As for thinking that any genre is above the other is absolutely ridiculous and pretentious. Whether music comes from the drum beats of tribal origins or from the melodies of the almost drum free classical composers, it's all good to me. I love it all, and will never limit my music appreciation to one or a few genres.

[inneedofgrace]

Just today I saw a new commercial on FOX for baseball, where they are trying to come up with ideas to appeal to more of the younger generation. So as they start coverage of a ballgame, Tim McCarver starts talking and his voice is altered heavily with autotune. After about 15 seconds, Joe Buck throws his microphone down and says "I can't do this".

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on today's pop music.

Too bad I couldn't find the commercial to link to it.

[Pollyanna]

ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.

Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.

[Deltadrummer]

Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.

Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.

[Pollyanna]

Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.

Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)

[Deltadrummer]

Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)

I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:P

[Pollyanna]

I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:P

Yes, now eccentricity = pathology. It's inefficient and therefore undesirable. Too many bloody people without enough time. What's on the radio? Ga Ga. Hey, that's catchy! Attention wanders to the next pressing obligation in Real Life (take kids to sport, do shopping, etc). Crimson? Ugh! What's that din! Soothe me ...

One thing taken from the 60s and 70s exploratory period that's endured (to say the least) is the theatrical side. The big show.

I agree about fusion being US's prog - the place for hot players to express themselves. Not sure why it gets you into trouble. When it came to American prog Zappa stands out a mile. Oh, and Beefheart. Then you had The Tubes before they were forced to pay their bills. Kansas had their moments, but a fair bit of it was just fancy AOR. Utopia had its moments but most people only know Todd R's soul tunes. Then some that didn't quite work out like Bebop Deluxe.

Never got into Rush. Annoying vocals and heavy rock with fancy bits. Soundwise it was pretty standard compared with other prog acts. Dream Theater seem to have similar taste issues to ELP. Tool's my fave of the new(ish) breed, and Don Cab. Have to say all those bands have tremendous drummers.

Most of the US fusion didn't have the same imagination in composition as the proggers but, in jazz tradition, the creativity often came in the improv and some of the musicianship was peerless. When I was a regular on Progarchives I was one of the people in the push to include Steely Dan.

I could see why there was resistance (the pop factor and only occasional shredding) but I figured that if they were going to include the "proto-prog" heavy groups like Purple and Sabs, surely they'd have a place for Dan. They ticked the boxes - quirky lyrics (and probably too good for prog :), challenging chord changes, incredible musicianship, unusual forms (Aja, Royal Scam, King of the World, Gold Teeth II), tricky accents and cut bars etc. Just that they were subtle and tasteful in the way they used the devices rather than hitting people over the head with it.

[Deltadrummer]

As far as PA, you and me both. Then they came to the conclusion that you had to include most everybody, first The Beatles, then Led Zep, then Steely Dan.

From what I remember, most of the Brit pop was classified as art rock, Pink Floyd, Yes, or Bowie because of its theatricality. You still see some docs that present it that way. There is that doc Seven Ages of Rock, I think it's another BBC doc.It presents it that way. Art rock included American groups like The Tubes or The Velvets,/Lou Reed or Roxy Music. Then at some point the Big Five became Progressive Rock; Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP, Yes and Crimson. Originally it didn't include Floyd as it doesn't the 2008 BBC doc. Did you notice that omission? Progressive rock was ELP, early Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, Soft Machine,Van Der Graf or King Crimson, etc. The Big Seven? Some not so big. :)

I think Pink Floyd was originally omitted because by the time the term 'progressive rock' was being used to classify those bands a) the movement was over and b) Pink Floyd was such a stable on AOR and such a big seller. It's such a quandary of a term because then you have Ian Anderson saying that Pink Floyd was the most progressive band back in '67 and Tull was not progressive rock. And wouldn't you consider Talking Heads, Laurie Anderson or Kate Bush art rock? And of course as Ian, DED not Anderson, said, there are all the heavy metal bands form the 1980s that started to get more 'progressive,' Fates Warning, Queensryche and then Dream Theater.

You can argue the same thing about American musical Theater. It was dead by 1990 and then it was revived by Disney who took a then ailing 42nd, which was known for drugs and prostitution, and made it kid friendly. Now Broadway is the most popular tourist attraction in the US beating out the other most popular tourist attraction up to that point, which was Disneyland, now two and Disneyworld, Orlando, now three. If you watch the Disney channel you will see a bunch of shows that have nothing to do with reality and are steeped in cliches about student teacher roles, parent child roles, and male female roles. I think they are producing a generation of kids who have no real understanding of social roles. Kids that would talk on the phone or text while they are with another person. I was in a restaurant yesterday and there were six boys there. Two had headsets on. I longed for the days when they would come in with their boom box and blast their rap music. At least it was a social activity. :)

[DrumEatDrum]

Never got into Rush. Annoying vocals and heavy rock with fancy bits. Soundwise it was pretty standard compared with other prog acts. Dream Theater seem to have similar taste issues to ELP. Tool's my fave of the new(ish) breed, and Don Cab. Have to say all those bands have tremendous drummers.
.

This is the discussion I have with my wife all the time. She hates Rush, but loves Tool.
But when I listen to Tool, I hear such a huge Rush influence, just tuned down. Similar melodies, song structures, and heck, even some of Tool's music video's are similar-ish to some of Rush's music videos. Tool is Rush Jr, updated for the next generation. So always find it odd she can't at least have a mild appreciation for the parent band.

I do agree with one point you made about Prog lyrics not being all love songs. I think that was a huge draw to me as well. Sure, I love Journey, but one can only take so many darn love songs. Please, let's discuss something else.

But at the same time, I can't get into the fantasy lyrics some bands put out. I don't care about how you have the golden ring that you need to get to the volcano so you can slay the dragon to save the land of whatever. Ugh!

Which is why, even as a huge Rush fan, I don't care about By Tor and the Snow dog. Stupid lyrics that make no sense.

2112 was at least a giant metaphor for individual against great power, and the power of music to be something highly important to the individual even when it does not appeal to the mases.

Oh, come to think of it, going back to some other thread, we were discussing about grunge and heroin and why I was never ever tempted to do drugs I think goes back to Queensryche's "Operation Mindcrime" album, as it had a big anti-heroin theme. As did the fun-but-cheesy Aldo Nova song "Monkey on Your Back" from the early 80's.

[wy yung]

I remember when M released the song, Pop music.

He sugggested we all "Talk about, pop pop pop music".

I hope he's reading this thread. That such a simple song is being discussed in detail so many years later must be a real boost to M's ego.

That drummers would take his suggestion so literally is a subject worthy of a detailed psychological paper.


I mean the song was ok. But it wasn't The rite of Spring!!!???

[inneedofgrace]

I remember when M released the song, Pop music.

He sugggested we all "Talk about, pop pop pop music".

I hope he's reading this thread. That such a simple song is being discussed in detail so many years later must be a real boost to M's ego.

That drummers would take his suggestion so literally is a subject worthy of a detailed psychological paper.


I mean the song was ok. But it wasn't The rite of Spring!!!???

Reminds me of the 1997 Hanson song MMM Bop I heard on the radio last weekend. I want to hate the song, but it is so daggone catchy...... :)

[Pollyanna]

This is the discussion I have with my wife all the time. She hates Rush, but loves Tool.
But when I listen to Tool, I hear such a huge Rush influence, just tuned down. Similar melodies, song structures, and heck, even some of Tool's music video's are similar-ish to some of Rush's music videos. Tool is Rush Jr, updated for the next generation. So always find it odd she can't at least have a mild appreciation for the parent band.

I do agree with one point you made about Prog lyrics not being all love songs. I think that was a huge draw to me as well. Sure, I love Journey, but one can only take so many darn love songs. Please, let's discuss something else.

But at the same time, I can't get into the fantasy lyrics some bands put out. I don't care about how you have the golden ring that you need to get to the volcano so you can slay the dragon to save the land of whatever. Ugh!

Which is why, even as a huge Rush fan, I don't care about By Tor and the Snow dog. Stupid lyrics that make no sense.

There might be some similarities between Rush and Tool, but I find the vibe very different. Tool's music is darker, more exotic, more psychedelic and it flows more. I find Rush music more mainstream - be it metal or AOR - whereas Tool never does.

I miss a lot of lyrics so if the vocals aren't way up and the singer's diction isn't great, then chances are I'll just tune into the music and treat the vocals as an instrument.

Agree that lyrics talking of the evil faeries planning to take over the peaceful kingdom of Zorothastclasm don't do it for me either. And this coming from a huge fan of fantasy fiction :) Weird, but in music it just seems to come off as goofy.

There are some classic bad prog lyrics out there. I always thought that Crimson's Cirkus was an outstanding track but ...Night: her sable dome scattered with diamonds,
Fused my dust from a light year,
Squeezed me to her breast, sowed me with carbon,
Strung my warp across time
Gave me each a horse, sunrise and graveyard,
Told me only I was her;
Bid me face the east closed me in questions
Built the sky for my dawn.
"Bid me face the east"? ... lol ... uh, that's pretty medieval, Pete. Maybe 400 years late? I almost prefer "get down and boogie, yeah baybee, ooo ooo" ... almost :)

[Frost]

This is my current argument against all pop music, it gave birth to this abomination,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ICY3mc45c

[Deltadrummer]

There are some classic bad prog lyrics out there. I always thought that Crimson's Cirkus was an outstanding track but ...Night: her sable dome scattered with diamonds,
Fused my dust from a light year,
Squeezed me to her breast, sowed me with carbon,
Strung my warp across time
Gave me each a horse, sunrise and graveyard,
Told me only I was her;
Bid me face the east closed me in questions
Built the sky for my dawn.
"Bid me face the east"? ... lol ... uh, that's pretty medieval, Pete. Maybe 400 years late? I almost prefer "get down and boogie, yeah baybee, ooo ooo" ... almost :)

I've gotten in trouble for saying this as well, but these guys were young and they really had not idea how to write a lyric. The first thing you learn about lyric writing is that the alliterations have to go. the first two Crim albums were full of them if I recall. paranoia's poison door. Wait, In the Court of the Crimson King. The album title was an alliteration.

The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.

Three alliterations in one quatrain. It sounds good. But you know that he is generating ideas from the sounds of the words and the rhymes, not from ideas.

The second thing you learn is that the adjectives (and adverbs) have to go. Not everything needs to be modified. Sinfield wrote pop lyrics in the 1980s. I don't know how good they were. When Gabriel simplified his language and came up with "In Your Eyes" you understood why those guys swore off prog.

[Pollyanna]

I've gotten in trouble for saying this as well, but these guys were young and they really had not idea how to write a lyric. The first thing you learn about lyric writing is that the alliterations have to go. the first two Crim albums were full of them if I recall. paranoia's poison door. Wait, In the Court of the Crimson King. The album title was an alliteration.

The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.

Three alliterations in one quatrain. It sounds good. But you know that he is generating ideas from the sounds of the words and the rhymes, not from ideas.

The second thing you learn is that the adjectives (and adverbs) have to go. Not everything needs to be modified. Sinfield wrote pop lyrics in the 1980s. I don't know how good they were. When Gabriel simplified his language and came up with "In Your Eyes" you understood why those guys swore off prog.

When I was thinking of some of prog's bad words I was thinking of In the Court but ... somewhere along the line I feel like it's an analogy for something too clever and deep for me to discern.

Yes, the main function of adjectives in a lyric IMO is to align the rhythm of a rhyming doublet :) Really, it's hard enough to squeeze in coherent ideas into something as short as a lyric (unless your singer has a Dylan's memory) without having extraneous words in there.

And do you remember Sinfield's terrible misjudgement in Ladies of the Road?
Two fingered Levi'd sister
Said, "Peace", I stopped I kissed her.
Said, "I'm a male resister",
I smiled and just unzipped her.

High diving chinese trender
Black hair and black suspender
Said, "Please me no surrender
Just love to feel your Fender".

Stone-headed Frisco spacer
Ate all the meat I gave her
Said would I like to taste hers
And even craved the flavour

"Like marron-glaced fish bones
Oh lady hit the road!"
Tragic. Written by Howard Wolowitz??

I heard someone say - and I'm inclined to believe them - that prog bands should not do sex (lyrically). In this case, I think purple pipers would be less embarrassing. The saddest thing is that musically the song is outstanding. Bob Fripp's imitation of a bad guitarist in his solo is a riot. You have to be good to pretend to play that bad.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.

[Pollyanna]

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs ...

+1,000,000 lol ... Deep Purple's Highway Star has the worst lyrics. It makes Ladies of the Road seem like high art ...
Nobody gonna take my car
I'm gonna race it to the ground
Nobody gonna beat my car
It's gonna break the speed of sound

Ooh it's a killing machine
It's got everything
Like a driving power big fat tyres
And everything

I love it and I need it, I bleed it
Yeah, it's a wild hurricane
Alright, hold tight
I'm a highway star

Nobody gonna take my girl
I'm gonna keep her to the end
Nobody gonna have my girl
She stays close on every bend

Ooh she's a killing machine
She got everything
Like a moving mouth body control
And everything

I love her, I need her, I seed her
Yeah, she turns me on
Alright, hold tight
I'm a highway star
"I seed her" ... creeeeepy ...

John Wetton has a rich tone between the rough ones but he sings a lot of flat notes and he always sounds a bit messy, as though he has trouble spitting out fast consonants.

Still, modern pop takes the cake for vacuous lyrics ...
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on, come on, come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on
Na na na na na
Come on
Na na na na
Come on, come on, come on
Na na na na

Feels so good being bad (Oh oh oh oh oh)
There's no way I'm turning back (Oh oh oh oh oh)
Now the pain is my pleasure cause nothing could measure (Oh oh oh oh oh)

Love is great, love is fine (Oh oh oh oh oh)
Out the box, outta line (Oh oh oh oh oh)
The affliction of the feeling leaves me wanting more (Oh oh oh oh oh)

Cause I may be bad, but I'm perfectly good at it
Sex in the air, I don't care, I love the smell of it
Sticks and stones may break my bones
But chains and whips excite me

"Love is great, love is fine (Oh oh oh oh oh)" ... OMG

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Rhianna is total rubbish, I agree.

But that doesn't make 'Highway Star' any better lyrically. It's Godawful.

I never could stand Wetton's singing, but at least the vocals-to-instrumental ratio is in a positive balance.

[sticks4drums]

I understand what you guys are saying. Lyrics have always been of great importance to me. Growing up I really liked Elton John. I loved the piano. To this day it is my favorite instrument. I have two in the house. Everyone in my family have taken some lessons, but none of us have stayed with it. I could sit and listen to the piano all day long. Bernie Taupin wrote some great lyrics for Elton that I still sing and remember to this day. Yes there was some fluffy ones in there, but they were for fun.

My older brother listened to heavier stuff during my Elton John stage. I picked up my next influence from him. He listened to Max Webster, Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, and many others of that Genre. One band I hung on to was RUSH. They just didn't sing about girls, and rock, and drugs. Neil had some pretty heady lyrics. Sometimes too heady. They were hard to figure out. At least they had, for the most part some substance to them.

A lot of rock lyrics throughout the ages has been very simple. The 50's were probably the worst. My memory sucks, so I have a hard time thinking up song titles as examples, but I have heard enough of them to know that they were pretty thin.

Today bands like Nickleback are a complete joke to me. There lyrics are pretty much fluff, and they can't seem to write any lyrics without swearing in them. It seems kind of pointless because they are a popular band, and all their stuff gets played on the radio. Then they have to mute out the lyrics. Kind of wrecks the song. A rock band that I really like nowadays is Alter Bridge. They seem to put some thought into what they write about.
A good exampleis this song.

"In Loving Memory"

Thanks for all you've done
I've missed you for so long
I can't believe you're gone
You still live in me
I feel you in the wind
You guide me constantly

I've never knew what it was to be alone, no
Cause you were always there for me
You were always there waiting
And ill come home and I miss your face so
Smiling down on me
I close my eyes to see

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I carry the things that remind me of you
In loving memory of
The one that was so true
Your were as kind as you could be
And even though you're gone
You still mean the world to me

I've never knew what it was to be alone, no
Cause you were always there for me
You were always there waiting
But now I come home and it's not the same, no
It feels empty and alone
I can't believe you're gone

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I'm glad he set you free from sorrow
I'll still love you more tomorrow
And you will be here with me still

And what you did you did with feeling
And You always found the meaning
And you always will
And you always will
And you always will

Ooo's

And I know, you're a part of me
And it's your song that sets me free
I sing it while I feel I can't hold on
I sing tonight cause it comforts me

I like the band Tool very much musically, but they are just so dark and their lyrics really aren't family friendly. My kids are getting older now, but when they were younger I just did not want to play this stuff with them in the house. Heck dark lyrics really seem to effect me in a negative way. This is a big reason I don't listen to heavier forms of Metal.

With my new band I want to write lyrics that have a meaning, with music that is up beat and has an edge. Here is an example of something I just wrote. I take a big chance putting it out there, but what the heck. What better place to be torn apart than the internet.

Dead Leaves

I saw it in the sky
As the clouds rolled in to stay
Summers warmth is fleeting
Winters cold, on its way

The leaves fall from the trees
Those silly cats begin to chase
When they finally capture
You can see it on their face

The prize they thought they had
Was only dead and dry
No one could tell them different
They had to chase, believe the lie

From time to time, just like those cats,
We begin to stray
When what we have is here to stay.

Don’t waste your days, chasing dead leaves
There here today, then blown away with a breeze
Hang on to living things, roots firmly in the ground
In my wife, this I’ve found

Another winters passed
New life is on its way
Seems like things are steady
Complacency held at bay

The sun beats on our face
Flowers sprout from the ground
It all seems so beautiful
No distractions can be found

We go about life’s daily tasks
Balancing work and play
Trials and tribulations
Seem forever in the way

When it all seems overwhelming
And our grass seems kind of grey
Just remember those cats at play

Don’t waste your days, chasing dead leaves
There here today, then blown away with a breeze
Hang on to living things, roots firmly in the ground
In my wife, this I have found

[mattsmith]

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.

1000% agree...Prog lyrics suck...except for Zappa's which were satirical, biting and supremely funny in a clever 10 year old boy kind of way.

With that said I really hate when people throw Zappa into that prog heap /like I disrespectfully did to make an obvious point/ Zappa was Zappa period and some of that stuff like Gregory Peccary was pure brilliance.

Gregory Peccary...now that was one cool libretto. I've probably listened to the Lather compilation 800-900 times.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Agreed, I don't put Zappa in with those other bands. He's a satirist and a composer, which is a totally different thing. My favourite Zappa album is actually 'Freak Out!' with the Mothers of Invention. I used to listen to it all the time, but I lost my copy and I won't pay £15 for a CD these days. His music was quirky, but in a totally different way to Prog - Prog became a formula very quickly which actually meant that it wasn't 'progressive' after more than a couple of years and I'm totally with people who don't want to be labelled pejoratively as a 'Prog' band.

[sticks4drums]

Agreed, I don't put Zappa in with those other bands. He's a satirist and a composer, which is a totally different thing. My favourite Zappa album is actually 'Freak Out!' with the Mothers of Invention. I used to listen to it all the time, but I lost my copy and I won't pay £15 for a CD these days. His music was quirky, but in a totally different way to Prog - Prog became a formula very quickly which actually meant that it wasn't 'progressive' after more than a couple of years and I'm totally with people who don't want to be labelled pejoratively as a 'Prog' band.

If you are going to use words like pejoratively you need to put the definition for us simple folk ;)

[mediocrefunkybeat]

If you are going to use words like pejoratively you need to put the definition for us simple folk ;)

Gah! Definitions! Derogatory. I suppose that would be listed in a thesaurus!

[DrumEatDrum]

Well, it's easy to point out bad or silly lyrics, because there are so many of them.

But to say an entire genre of music has bad lyrics is just not paying attention and giving into stereotyping. We don't say all jazz is boring because the record store puts a certain Musak artist in the jazz bin.

Dream Theater has some great lyrics, and some really stupid ones, depending on the album/song. Same with Rush, some are brilliant, some are lame.

But I agree too many bands want to focus on just recycled love song themes. That does get old. And I admit, I've never understood why Aerosmith is so popular, given all there songs (save two) have pretty silly lyrical concepts.

What I really can't stand are fantasy lyrics. It's the main reason I can't not get into Nightwish, even though they have a lot of talent. And one of the big reasons the last two Dream Theater albums blew chunks.

[Deltadrummer]

Well, it's easy to point out bad or silly lyrics, because there are so many of them.

But to say an entire genre of music has bad lyrics is just not paying attention and giving into stereotyping. We don't say all jazz is boring because the record store puts a certain Musak artist in the jazz bin.

Dream Theater has some great lyrics, and some really stupid ones, depending on the album/song. Same with Rush, some are brilliant, some are lame.

But I agree too many bands want to focus on just recycled love song themes. That does get old. And I admit, I've never understood why Aerosmith is so popular, given all there songs (save two) have pretty silly lyrical concepts.

What I really can't stand are fantasy lyrics. It's the main reason I can't not get into Nightwish, even though they have a lot of talent. And one of the big reasons the last two Dream Theater albums blew chunks.


I agree, Ian. Of course the doc goes into the pretension of Rush's prog songs. But when "I have dined on honey dew and drank the milk of paradise." gave way to Moving Pictures or even Spirit of Radio, Peart's simpler lyricism was creating some more interesting lyrics. Same with Peter Gabriel who wrote some really thought provoking lyrics in his prog days, and emerged as a great pop songwriter after Genesis. Take apart Supper's Ready verse for verse and you will a guy who knew his Milton and Blake. I also thought DT Metropolis was a great concept. I don't really remember how well it was written lyrically.

Ian Anderson was another satirical writer that came out of the prog days, and in my opinion probably better than anyone mentioned here. He got into trouble with Robert Plant in the early 1980s for saying he had always wondered what his lyrics would sound like with Jimmy Page's writing. Those two bands came up together, but Plant was not happy with that statement, which he took to mean, I wonder what Jimmy Page's music would sound like with some good lyrics. Of course , that's how we all took it. We knew what he meant.

If you want to good lyricist for American popular music look no further than Paul Simon. I had a friend years ago who was a songwriter on a small label. I asked him who his favorite lyricist was and he answered Paul Simon. I asked why and he said, "because he edits so well." One day looking at this lyric I knew what he meant. Nice rhyme of colors with summers. There are multiple level of meaning in this little pop ditty that could be a commercial.

When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's
a sunny day
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together
for one night
I know they'd never match
my sweet imagination
Everything looks worse
in black and white

[DrumEatDrum]

I agree, Ian. Of course the doc goes into the pretension of Rush's prog songs. But when "I have dined on honey dew and drank the milk of paradise." gave way to Moving Pictures or even Spirit of Radio, Peart's simpler lyricism was creating some more interesting lyrics.

heh.....I knew someone would bring up Xanadu.

Granted, that song does contain odd lyrics, although he there is a moral to the story, but it might take listening to the song 100 times to understand it. (be careful what you wish for, you just might get it end up miserable) But yeah, his lyrics got much better into the 80's. He went to back to hit and miss in the 90's.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

Ken, Paul Simon is great. I'm not big on Simon and Garfunkel, but his solo work is almost uniformly fantastic, particularly lyrically.

[Deltadrummer]

heh.....I knew someone would bring up Xanadu.

Granted, that song does contain odd lyrics, although he there is a moral to the story, but it might take listening to the song 100 times to understand it. (be careful what you wish for, you just might get it end up miserable) But yeah, his lyrics got much better into the 80's. He went to back to hit and miss in the 90's.

I wasn't specifically references the song, but the documentary where 'Glee' talks about how UFO called him Glee and made fun of the band, specifically writing that lyric on a banner. I loved those early albums and I bought them all when they first came out. But it was a very different time. I remember going to see Rush, or Zappa who I saw from the second row one night, and people listened to the music. They were relatively quiet. And then NWOBHM came along and you had these unruly mobs at all the concerts, jumping on seats, and shouting.

A friend sent me a clip she took of Rush playing YYZ, and the people were just screaming. It made me wonder of they were really listening or just excited that they were doing this song, that for all intense and purposes they could be listening to at home on their ipod. That's why I love jazz; it's always different.

[DrumEatDrum]

I wasn't specifically references the song, but the documentary where 'Glee' talks about how UFO called him Glee and made fun of the band, specifically writing that lyric on a banner.
I wouldn't know anything about Glee. They made a Rush reference?



A friend sent me a clip she took of Rush playing YYZ, and the people were just screaming. It made me wonder of they were really listening or just excited that they were doing this song,
A few years ago now, Rush did their first ever South American tour. When they played Rio, Brazil, they sold out a massive stadium, which was filmed for a DVD release.

When the band started YYZ, much the bands surprise, the entire audience started singing the melody along to the song. After the DVD came out, American fans started to do the same thing. Which is a tad ironic, and funny, given the song is entirely instrumental, to have an audience "sing along". But Rush have always had a sense of humor about them.


. That's why I love jazz; it's always different.
True. Which is why I can only really appreciate it live. Sitting at home and putting on a jazz record, and I'm pretty bored after a while. Want to to go see a jazz band in person? Cool, let's go.

[Deltadrummer]

I wouldn't know anything about Glee. They made a Rush reference?

Ian, I assumed you had a better working knowledge of the Beyond the Lighted Stage doc. Glee was how UFO referred to Geddy Lee, and UFO was the band tat made fun of their lyrics.

Here's a great doc with Dave Matthews, Eryka Badu, Questlove and a host of other artists that basically covers everything we've discussed. It's called Before the Music Dies.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/62945/before-the-music-dies?from=fb_share

[Pollyanna]

Agree about Peter Gabriel and Ian Anderson. Brilliant lyricists. Thick as a Brick was unbelievable.

The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

If ever there was a bridge between pop and prog, Supertramp were it, along with 10CC. We almost never talk about them here and I suspect some will find the vocals too poppy, but I always loved their music and lyrics (a girl thing, maybe?) - especially Supertramp, although 10CC's Une Nuit in Paris was a triumph IMO

[Deltadrummer]

The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

If ever there was a bridge between pop and prog, Supertramp were it, along with 10CC. We almost never talk about them here and I suspect some will find the vocals too poppy, but I always loved their music and lyrics (a girl thing, maybe?) - especially Supertramp, although 10CC's Une Nuit in Paris was a triumph IMO

Great song. I think Freddie Mercury listened to more than a little 10CC. Certainly there are bands like 10CC that could have been more popular had they been given more airplay in the US, well more than two songs. That may also be a problem with having a good idea, and someone just comes a long and does it better, or more commercially.

On the other hand I liked Supertramp as well; but they were so over exposed by AOR. There were three albums that were a fixture in hi-fidelity audio shops. Dark Side of the Moon, Aja and Crime of the Century. They exemplified the best in audio recording technology of the time. I was never a big fan of Roger Hodgson's voice per se. I did love Geddy's though. There's no accounting for taste.

[DrumEatDrum]

Ian, I assumed you had a better working knowledge of the Beyond the Lighted Stage doc. Glee was how UFO referred to Geddy Lee, and UFO was the band tat made fun of their lyrics. ]

Doh! whoosh....over my head.


The other day I heard The Logical Song on the radio. Fantastic song - intelligent, witty, heartfelt (it's about the singer's feelings about his time in boarding school), superb writing and arranging, plus class musicianship .

I have never been into Supertramp. I never got them, or understood why the radio played them so dang often.

But funny enough, a few weeks ago I got in my car, turned on the radio, and that song was on. And for the first time after 10,001 times of hearing that song, I actually paid attention the entire set of lyrics, and went "wow". I'm surprised I never "got it" before, given my own issues with my schooling days. Previously I always wondered why the hell would anyone sing about being logical (an ode to Spock? What logic have to do with music?) It was a big ohh moment.

I still can't say I'm a fan of the band though. I really could without ever hearing the "Girlfriend" song on the radio again. Although I have always liked that one song about the school yard with the harmonica, but mostly because when I was younger I thought it was a Zeppelin tune. LOL.

[Pollyanna]

I have never been into Supertramp. I never got them, or understood why the radio played them so dang often.

But funny enough, a few weeks ago I got in my car, turned on the radio, and that song was on. And for the first time after 10,001 times of hearing that song, I actually paid attention the entire set of lyrics, and went "wow". I'm surprised I never "got it" before, given my own issues with my schooling days. Previously I always wondered why the hell would anyone sing about being logical (an ode to Spock? What logic have to do with music?) It was a big ohh moment.

I still can't say I'm a fan of the band though. I really could without ever hearing the "Girlfriend" song on the radio again. Although I have always liked that one song about the school yard with the harmonica, but mostly because when I was younger I thought it was a Zeppelin tune. LOL.

That's funny, because that time I heard it in the car the other day it was the most I'd zeroed in on the song too.

Crime of the Century deserved its billing as per Ken's post. Funny thing, isn't it? All three of those albums had black covers. I know that at one stage I started questioning whether the fact that an album cover was black somehow coloured (ahem) my perceptions of the music. All the black albums I had sounded so clean and incredible. I think those three albums must have done it :)

Some great songs on Crime - not just School, but also Rudi , Hide in Your Shell and the title track (which was epic). I think the fact that they seemed influenced by older, unhip things like Gershwyn and honky tonk turned people off.


Great song. I think Freddie Mercury listened to more than a little 10CC. Certainly there are bands like 10CC that could have been more popular had they been given more airplay in the US, well more than two songs. That may also be a problem with having a good idea, and someone just comes a long and does it better, or more commercially.

On the other hand I liked Supertramp as well; but they were so over exposed by AOR. There were three albums that were a fixture in hi-fidelity audio shops. Dark Side of the Moon, Aja and Crime of the Century. They exemplified the best in audio recording technology of the time. I was never a big fan of Roger Hodgson's voice per se. I did love Geddy's though. There's no accounting for taste.

Yep, Queen improved on the 10CC approach, but it's no disgrace to be outdone by a band like that. I recently saw 10CC on the Tube, a live version of Art for Art's Sake. They're a seriously talented band.

I always got mixed up as to who was who in Supertramp. I'm guessing the whiny voice is the issue. What a bitch it must have been for him to sing his first note and finding out that the natural vocal expression of his soul was a wimpy whine ... I know how that feels because my natural way of singing sounds like whining too lol

See above for comments on the Black Album Syndrome :)

[inneedofgrace]

I'm going to go right out and say it.

There are very few Rock bands with good lyrics. In fact, there are very few bands out there with good lyrics. Maybe I'm going to come out as controversial here, but I honestly think that a lot of what puts me off of older Rock bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple isn't just the pomp, but it's the terrible, terrible lyrics they shoehorn in. There are massive exceptions - Bowie wrote some great lines, as did Pink Floyd sometimes (some albums are better than others) and the lyrics aren't always a deal-breaker for me; but sometimes I actually get embarrassed listening to them. It's like listening to John Wetton singing - it's just not very good and you can't redress it any other way.

I will openly admit, however, that I don't really listen to the vocals in a lot of songs. If there's a group of people listening to a song, I will be the last to tell you what they actually said and I'm much more likely to reply with a comment about the recording technique, dodgy editing or bad key change. Wether that's the result of listening to a lot of really bad lyrics and just giving up or natural propensity, I'm not sure. But when I'm enjoying something on a musical level and cringing at the vocals, I'm not enjoying it.

Furthermore, I'm absolutely with Polly. Prog had the worst lyrics of all - and still does. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater lyrics? No. Absolutely not. Do I want to hear any Dream Theater? Well, I think you can answer that one yourselves. Tool are the exception that proves the rule, but even they come out with some cabbages from time to time.

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

The Who have better lyrics than most, although I think Daltrey often goes for the 'not quite sure, so I'll make it obscure' approach. The Rock Operas are fairly pretentious - but they were going for a theme there, so I'll cut them some slack. The only 'concept' album I really like the lyrics from is probably 'The Wall' - even though that is filled with some terrible examples.

I often prefer it when they're nonsensical, in a Barrettesque way. At least then you're not trying to read too much and it's ok for them to be ridiculous. Otherwise you run close to being into self-parody without intent!

[Pollyanna]

A woman I work with has been a die-hard fan of The Who for 30 years and has seen them countless times in concert. But whenever I ask her what a specific Who song means, she always tells me she has no idea and that all the words are nonsense.

I know what the Tommy songs are about! The rest is a mystery to me and I love their music all the same. Most of the time I'm listening to Moonie anyway :)

[inneedofgrace]

I know what the Tommy songs are about!

Weirdest. Movie. Ever.

Ann Margaret covered in baked beans. Enough said.

[Deltadrummer]

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

[DrumEatDrum]

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

^ This.

I once wrote a long thing about The Who is responsible for inspiring multiple genres of music. I'll have to go see where I put that.

Sure, some of his lyrics were silly, some were deliberately meant to be humorous, but many other lyrics were rather profound with a deeper meaning behind them.

[DrumEatDrum]

Weirdest. Movie. Ever.

Ann Margaret covered in baked beans. Enough said.

Awesome movie.

The baked beans was a bit of a gag referencing The Who's second album "The Who Sells Out".

http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-The-Who-The-Who-Sell-Out.jpg

[Deltadrummer]

^ This.

I once wrote a long thing about The Who is responsible for inspiring multiple genres of music. I'll have to go see where I put that.

Sure, some of his lyrics were silly, some were deliberately meant to be humorous, but many other lyrics were rather profound with a deeper meaning behind them.

I wrote something about there being the band that created punk rock.

A cryptic Who lyric

The Dirty Jobs

I am a man who looks after the pigs
Usually I get along OK.
I am man who reveals all he digs,
Should be more careful what I say.

I'm getting put down,
I'm getting pushed round,
I'm being beaten every day.
My life's fading,
But things are changing,
I'm not gonna sit and weep again.

I am man who drives a local bus
I take miners to work, but the pits all closed today.
It's easy to see that you are one of us.
Ain't it funny how we all seem to look the same?

We're getting put down etc.

My karma tells me
You've been screwed again.
If you let them do it to you
You've got yourself to blame.
It's you who feels the pain
It's you that feels ashamed.

I am a young man
I ain't done very much,
You men should remember how you used to fight.
Just like a child, I've been seeing only dreams,
I'm all mixed up but I know what's right.

I'm getting put down etc.

[Pollyanna]

I would have to say that The Who, more than any other band in rock history, best exemplifies what rock n roll is about, the unbridled anger, the energy and the rebellion. I would say even more so than The Beatles, Townsend wrote songs that resonated with that period in a straight -forward coherent way: My Generation, I'm Mobile, Won't Get Fooled Again or I'm Free. Yeah I wonder what that last one, I'm Free, is all about. I can't imagine how a woman would listen to this music and not know what Squeeze Box, I Can See for Miles or The Real Me are about. Quadrophenia is probably the greatest rock movie that there even was. Not that there is a lot of competition, well. Jesus Christ Superstar. The Who wasn't about the lyrics, but a whole lot more. But Townsend was a great lyricist.

Totally agree ... and yes, I picked up on the creepiness of I Can See for Miles (I don't know the other songs you mentioned). However ... Keith's playing in the verses is some of my favourite drumming by anyone ... ever ... so my focus is always elsewhere with that one.

Apart from Tommy - which I loved - I never really picked up on The Who until YouTube. I did have that Pete Townsend solo album with Face the Face, which is a great example of a Top 40 song that kicks the sorry backsides of today's popular music (in this old fart's opinion).

I agree - they are the perfect RnR band. They had it all.

BTW, Mum took me to see the stage production of JC Superstar when I was very young and I always liked it. Jon English as Judas and Reg Livermore as Herod in the Oz production were outstanding.

[DrumEatDrum]

The Dirty Jobs...a song about the common working man making it in society. It's a key part of the story, because Jimmy (as are most disenfranchised youth) are trying to avoid being a common working man. It's a key component of why Jimmy is so shocked when he finds out his hero is nothing but a common bell boy on side 2.

Anyhow:

Why The Who simply own the history of rock n roll and nearly all it's sub-genres:

Punk: Raw & sloppy, feed-back filled music with lyrics that have a "f- you to the establishment” attitude, along with the wild thrift store outfits (as opposed to the suits and ties of the Beatles), with concerts that ended with the band destroying all their instruments. Only this was in was the Who in 1964, well before the 1979 punk scene.
Even though Punk rock was supposed to be a middle finger to the established jam bands of the 70s and their 10 minute guitar solos, The Who being one of them, punk bands, including the Sex Pistols, actually covered Who songs.

New Wave: Prior to 80's New Wave and it's use of driving synths, the synthesizer was largely seen as a novelty instrument that people like Keith Emerson would use to play crazy sounding solos on. Except the Who started using sequencers & synth patterns in 1971, and then again very heavily in 1978, just before synth driven music exploded in the early 80s.

Metal: Metal was born from Deep Purple and Black Sabbath in 1968, as well as a few other bands, like Blue Cheer & Zeppelin (among others). But Pete Townshend’s heavy use of the power chord and his riffs were undeniable components of the metal bands that were to come. Not to mention Keith Moon’s stomping double bass drums.

Concept albums and Epic rock: The Who were the first rock band to take several 2 min. pop songs and string them into something that told a whole story. They then, in 1968, they took this idea further and made an entire double album based around one story, the very first rock opera, which set up the basis for every other concept album ever made.

Prog: Although the Beatles were the 1st band to use odd time signatures, while the Who never did, Keith Moon was the main influence for Neil Peart of Rush, which then inspired well, you know the rest. And in their concept album "Tommy", Pete mixed classical concepts like overtures, which became a huge influence on the 70’s prog bands who mixed classical music concepts with rock.

Alternative: Back in the 60’s, the main streamers listened to the Beatles, while the rockers listened to the Stones. All the alternative kids, knows as “Mods” who wore a mix of dark glam and items picked up from military thrift stores, listened to the Who. This would all be documented in the Who’s double album “Quadraphenia” which was later made into a full-length feature film. And if you take all the alternative bands of the 90’s get them to list their influences, work your way backwards, and it starts with the Who. Further proven by the VH-1 Rock honors, when the band was honored mostly by "alternative" bands.

Goth and Death Rock started from punk mixed with the dark sounds of the Doors, but John Entwhistle of the Who wrote several creepy, dark, and/or morbid songs, none of which were ever hits, but certainly pre-dated up what would come later. Borris the Spider, Heaven and Hell, the creepy album cover of his solo albums "Smash Your Head Against the Wall" and the title of his 3rd solo album "Rigor Mortis Sets In."

There is no denying th Beatles are the most influential band in terms of number of artists they inspired, but they stopped making records at the end of the 60's. The Stones and Zep, great bands and all, but they never really stepped outside of their heavy blues based roots. The Who pushed boundaries, and inspired a wider variety of movements

[Pollyanna]

Excellent homage, DED :)

I'll just add that other metal & hard rock pioneers and inspirations were Hendrix and Iron Butterfly. Tracks like Voodoo Chile and In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida seemed to be pretty influential.

[Deltadrummer]

Excellent look at this influential band. The mods actually liked Beat music and black music and in that way were the forerunners of the alt rockers. The Rockers liked 50s rock n roll and rockabilly. Lennon was a teddy boy but The Beatles gave up their rocker look for money.

It's all here as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eLeZS9OeY

[Pollyanna]

It's all here as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9eLeZS9OeY

What is? Booze and amphetamines? :)

... and then they start growing up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShCSuFSauzU

[Deltadrummer]

What is? Booze and amphetamines? :)

... and then they start growing up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShCSuFSauzU

I wasn't a big Clash fan; but I did get to see them live, and I did get to see Joe Strummer perform for free, accidentally, one afternoon right before he passes at Tower Records on Broadway in NYC. I'm glad I did because they were a great band. A lot of people I respected loved them.

Rael from The Lamb, is Jimmy, is Johnny Rotten. it's the 300,00 guys they're singing to in the video. White Riot is almost an answer to Dirty Jobs. I love the thick and brick rhyme. Where did he get that? Waters critique of the English educational system goes far back. Another great lyric is London Calling, 100% Dylan, "And I live by the river".

Black people gotta lot a problems
But they don't mind throwing a brick
White people go to school
Where they teach you how to be thick

An' everybody's doing
Just what they're told to
An' nobody wants
To go to jail!

White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own
White riot - I wanna riot
White riot - a riot of my own

All the power's in the hands
Of people rich enough to buy it
While we walk the street
Too chicken to even try it

Are you taking over
or are you taking orders?
Are you going backwards
Or are you going forwards?

[inneedofgrace]

I was looking up some information, and came upon this interesting data on the songs that have stayed at no. 1 for the longest period of time. Almost every song on this list is what I would consider a "modern era" pop song (1995 or newer). The question is, what does this mean in terms of the quality of pop music today?

Most weeks at number one

16 weeks
Mariah Carey and Boyz II Men — "One Sweet Day" (1995)

14 weeks
Whitney Houston — "I Will Always Love You" (1992)
Boyz II Men — "I'll Make Love to You" (1994)
Los del Río — "Macarena" (Bayside Boys mix) (1996)
Elton John — "Candle in the Wind 1997" / "Something About the Way You Look Tonight" (1997)
Mariah Carey — "We Belong Together" (2005)
The Black Eyed Peas — "I Gotta Feeling" (2009)

13 weeks
Boyz II Men — "End of the Road" (1992)
Brandy and Monica — "The Boy Is Mine" (1998)

12 weeks
Santana featuring Rob Thomas — "Smooth" (1999)
Eminem — "Lose Yourself" (2002-2003)
Usher featuring Lil Jon and Ludacris — "Yeah!" (2004)
The Black Eyed Peas — "Boom Boom Pow" (2009)

[Pollyanna]

I was looking up some information, and came upon this interesting data on the songs that have stayed at no. 1 for the longest period of time. Almost every song on this list is what I would consider a "modern era" pop song (1995 or newer). The question is, what does this mean in terms of the quality of pop music today?

I don't think it says anything about quality, but it does suggest a tightening of radio and video clip playlists.

A few tracks I like a lot there, though - Candle in the Wind, Loose Yourself and Smooth.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Pop music changes all the time. At coming up 23 I like to think I have quite a wide range on music taste, on my ipod I have everything from 36 Crazyfist to Tears For Fears. However one thing that really scared me, that not to long ago I went to visit my parents and my 6 year old sister was shaking along to a recent pop video. Which I do not approve of. Some of the lyrics are made by some very closed minded people, talking about basically just getting rich and sleeping with lots of girls. These people are NOT musicians, and are not the sort of role models we want our younger generation to try to aspire to. When I was 6 I loved Michael Jackson, I listened to a lot of my mum's records suc as the Bee Gees, Beach Boys, The Beatles ect. this great music is what made me want to be a musician, as I was always hitting pots and pans as a toddler my mum put me into drum lessons.
I love music, it is the one language that everyone understands. I have gotten my sisters into Blink 182 now which makes me very happy, as they are my favorite band as Dude Ranch album was the first I ever bought.


Anyways thats my Rant

[Pollyanna]

These people are NOT musicians, and are not the sort of role models we want our younger generation to try to aspire to. When I was 6 I loved Michael Jackson ...

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

[Deltadrummer]

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

Somebody had to teach grammar school kids how to masterbate, and Michael Jackson was up for the task. :P

I was talking with a guy yesterday who is a musician, quite well educated. He went to conservatory. He's in his 20's and said his favorite decade in pop music is the 1990s, Tupac, Biggie, Lauryn Hill. For him, this music had something to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3_dOWYHS7I


He thinks its a white/black thing, because he said that when you ask black people what they are listening to the will say Black Eyed Peas, or Usher, etc. new artists. But when you ask white people, they will tell you some old school band from back in the day, even the kids. "It would seem," he said , "that rock music stopped developing in the late 80s, where as R and B has continued to grow and change with the times."

[DrumEatDrum]

He thinks its a white/black thing, because he said that when you ask black people what they are listening to the will say Black Eyed Peas, or Usher, etc. new artists. But when you ask white people, they will tell you some old school band from back in the day, even the kids. "It would seem," he said , "that rock music stopped developing in the late 80s, where as R and B has continued to grow and change with the times."

Funny thing, a few years ago on a different forum someone posted a rant about today's hip-hop isn't as good as yesterday's hip hop and why don't radio stations cater to people who grew up with the genre but can't stand the new stuff.

Years ago, I spent a summer playing 3 times a week with some much older guys playing old R&B at a bar. I was way out of place being the 24 year old long haired white kid, and I couldn't even say I knew most of the tunes. But after a few months I had a large stack of cash.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Who, despite his talent, is perhaps not such a great role model either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTJEBex2jvM

:)

Well played love.


But I do have to say, I think it was just a load of bs about MJ, touching those kids, I don't want to make this a "is he guilty?" thread, but if what is my opinion is true, then the guy had his trust betrayed by some degenerate family, his fans gone, his money gone and in a huge amount of debt, plus everyone taking the piss out of him.


Anyway back to conversation. I think the rock genre is as good as it was going to be, at the moment the best band to come out in the past couple of years has been Mumford and Sons, who came from our mighty ol' england. Come to think of it we have actually come out with every type of great rock group there is...

The Beatles
The Who
The Kinks
The Rolling Stones
Queen
Phil Collins
Led Zepplin
Black Sabbath
Iron Maiden
Sex Pistols
David Bowie
Joy Division
The Smiths
The Clash
The Police
Duran Duran
Fleetwood Mac
Radiohead
Muse
The Libertines
The Stone Roses
The Small Faces
U2
Pink Floyed
Deep Purple
Def Leppard

Seriously America step up your game haha :)

[Pollyanna]

Well played sir.

Ahem - try madam! :-P


But I do have to say, I think it was just a load of bs about MJ, touching those kids, I don't want to make this a "is he guilty?" thread, but if what is my opinion is true, then the guy had his trust betrayed by some degenerate family, his fans gone, his money gone and in a huge amount of debt, plus everyone taking the piss out of him.

Irregardless of the accusations, I still say that most parents don't want their kids grabbing their crotch in public, having mountains of plastic surgery, danging their children over balconies for photographers, living in oxygen tents, having little boys as bedmates (platonic or whatever) ... he lived in an alternate universe.

Looking at that list I see great quite a few British performers who were deeply influenced by US artists like Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Muddy Waters, Bob Dylan, The Byrds, Little Richard, Elmore James, Howling Wolf, Sun Ra's Arkestra (Pink Floyd) ... not to mention a host of jazz and Motown artists.

Not wanting to be contrary ... some of my favourite bands are in that list of yours :)

[Boom Boom Dah]

Ahem - try madam! :-P

Edited, I do apologise

Irregardless of the accusations, I still say that most parents don't want their kids grabbing their crotch in public, having mountains of plastic surgery, danging their children over balconies for photographers, living in oxygen tents, having little boys as bedmates (platonic or whatever) ... he lived in an alternate universe.

Looking at that list I see great quite a few British performers who were deeply influenced by US artists like Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Elvis, Muddy Waters, Bob Dylan, The Byrds, Little Richard, Elmore James, Howling Wolf, Sun Ra's Arkestra (Pink Floyd) ... not to mention a host of jazz and Motown artists.

Not wanting to be contrary ... some of my favourite bands are in that list of yours :)

I see where you are coming from, but as you are most likely to be correct, some of those Bands/Artist that I have listed have influence a lot more musicians, I can't imagine how many Drummers here would say they have been directly influence by John Bonhams plaing, but it would be a hell of a lot. However you could say the same about Neil Peart. It's a tough one but I think we may still have the edge :)

[Deltadrummer]

I mentioned Mumford and Sons earlier in the thread and it went over like a lead balloon then as well.

One of the things I noticed about Brit pop is that when you talk about the major figures, you are most often talking about bands. You have the big 5, Beatles, Stones, Who, Zep, Floyd from the classic period, and add Queen. Even the biggest American band, The Eagles, was never as big as those bands in their hey day. I don't know why that is although it might have something to do with a socialist ethic. When you mention American artists from that period, you are usually talking about individuals, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Hendrix, Stevie Wonder, James Brown and Billy Joel. Michael Jackson anyone. You also has Motown and Stax artists;Sam and Dave, Otis Redding, Aretha, Smokey Robinson, Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye. Of course Michael Jackson and Stevie both started on Motown.

But certainly American has produced no lack of bands in the last forty years, from the horn bands, Chicago, Earth Wind and Fire, Tower of Power to the rock bands Aerosmith, Van Halen, Guns and Roses, Metallica. Who could forget all those great soul bands of the 1960s and 1970s, Temptations, O'Jay's, Chi-Lites, Isley Brothers, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes.

[Pollyanna]

It's cool, Boom, I liked the "well played" bit :) With rock I lean toward Brit music, but I'm also a big fan of some American/international jazz music. Not sure if being an older Aussie with a European background makes a difference.

Ken, which of the old groups do you think have had the biggest influences on modern pop (the stuff we seem to love to hate)? I'm thinking Kraftwerk was one.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I think Kraftwerk are undeniably the single most influential electronic group out there, but only through osmosis. It took the industry ten years to catch up with them, but they didn't develop enough to keep ahead - I think after 'Computer World' they started sounding dated, but the ten years before that are quite something.

Brian Eno would be another obvious candidate, but a lot of his music is less clearly definable and hence the influence harder to define. 'My Life in the Bush of Ghosts' with David Byrne is one album that took the industry another ten years to come to terms with - it's just simply amazing in scope and influence.

[Deltadrummer]

Americans are really big on songwriting, and even many of the biggest bands are really a songwriter or two and a bunch of guys. When it works best like with the Eagles, CSNY, Grateful Dead or The Band you had a band of songwriters drummer included. Of course, many bands list all the members as co-authors of the songs, Deep Purple, U2, or Green Day.

The whole concept of a band is tenuous from that perspective. I think it's funny that people complain about bands touring with one or two original members. There's this band King Crimson, and I think they only have one original member. One of the things I liked about Genesis, Crimson and Yes was that they were truly a band, all the members squeezing in ideas and trying to make them work. Yes always sounded like they were going to explode from the massive amount of talent in the band all squeezed in to the Yes box. Then people get squeezed out.

You can't count one band or artists as the biggest influence on pop music because there are so many subgenres; but certainly U2 and the Edge's guitar in particular are a huge influence on a lot of young bands. I would agree that the minimalist thing is still so big going back to Eno from Cale; it made its way into rock n roll.

The point I have been trying to make. to take the question outside of the role of the listener renders it moot and meaningless. I heard a joke the other day. What do music and a box of chocolate have in common? You have to get rid of the rappers. Would it surprise you that a white guy was telling that joke, and the guy who said that 1990s music had the most well thought out messages of any decade was black? Not a surprise.

I think it gets down to what Bermuda was asking in the beginning of the thread, is the song any good. You have that one aspect of popular music, which is the great song. you also have the other side, which is the great dance tune. I wouldn't sit around listening to Madonna or Lady Gaga, but lay it on the dance floor and that is a different story. I bet that most of the people who criticize today's pop music haven't been out on a dance floor in decades and they probably look like they could use it.

[Boom Boom Dah]

Americans are really big on songwriting, and even many of the biggest bands are really a songwriter or two and a bunch of guys. When it world best like with the Eagles, CSNY, Grateful Dead or The Band you had a band of songwriters drummer included. Of course many bands list all the members as co-authors of the songs, Deep Purple, U2, or Green Day.

The whole concept of a band is tenuous from that perspective. I think it's funny that people complain about bands touring with one or two original members. There's this band King Crimson, and I think they only have one original member. One of the things I liked about Genesis, Crimson and Yes was that they were truly a band, all the members squeezing in ideas and trying to make them work. Yes always sounded like they were going to explode from the massive amount of talent in the band all squeezed in to the Yes box. Then people get squeezed out.

You can't count one band or artists as the biggest influence on pop music because there are so many subgenres; but certainly U2 and the Edge's guitar in particular are a huge influence on a lot of young bands. I would agree that the minimalist thing is still so big going back to Eno from Cale; it made its way into rock n roll.

The point I have been trying to make. to take the question outside of the role of the listener renders it moot and meaningless. I heard a joke the other day. What do music and a box of chocolate have in common? You have to get rid of the rappers. Would it surprise you that a white guy was telling that joke, and the guy who said that 1990s music had the most well thought out messages of any decade was black? Not a surprise.

I think it gets down to what Bermuda was asking in the beginning of the thread, is the song any good. You have that one aspect of popular music, which is the great song. you also have the other side, which is the great dance tune. I wouldn't sit around listening to Madonna or Lady Gaga, but lay it on the dance floor and that is a different story. I bet that most of the people who criticize today's pop music haven't been out on a dance floor in decades and they probably look like they could use it.

Great post.

It's true, after a few too many lagers I will dance to anything, but I also "take a leak" on a wall when I am a bit drunk so bearing that in mind that we do a lot of silly stuff when we are drunk.

[inneedofgrace]

I don't think there is any R&B in most pop music today. Long gone is the Motown sound that dominated pop music such as Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Temptations, Supremes, etc

[Deltadrummer]

R Kelly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6rqp7kUX2Y

sounds like Stevie, no?

Usher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6urbZyHgO4

You can hear the auto-tune on the high notes. I'd like them better if it had some real instruments; but it could have been done by The Chi-Lites or Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes. Whether it would be better if done by those bands, I will not comment.

[Pollyanna]

INOG, do a search for Ce Lo Green in YouTube ...

I think Kraftwerk are undeniably the single most influential electronic group out there, but only through osmosis. It took the industry ten years to catch up with them, but they didn't develop enough to keep ahead - I think after 'Computer World' they started sounding dated, but the ten years before that are quite something.

Funny, so much music in the mainstream of the UK and US yet a few quirky Germans did something with roots that spread through a huge percentage of today's mainstream.

On the other hand, Grandmaster Flash's influence is huge too.

[inneedofgrace]

I wonder if anyone got upset when Bill Wither's Lean on Me was remade by Mud (1976), Al Jarreau (1985), DC Talk (1992), Michael Bolton (1993), Bonnie Tyler (1999), Anne Murray (1999), and The Temptations?

,

[DrumEatDrum]

Tonight's (or last night's depending on when you read this) episode of South Park was dedicated to this thread.

It was an absolute hilarious send up of how one's perception of music changes with each generations and with just getting older.

[MR.POP]

Isn't it about time this country had a national debate on pop music? The pop charts are a farse. If anybody still follows the Top 40 (or Top 75) there is a very low turnover of songs resulting from a fall in the number of new entries every week. The current Top 40 is stale! So much of today's pop is tuneless, talentless trash. Perhaps I'm showing my age but very decade of pop music from the 1950s - 2000s was far superior to the banal 'music' that dominates today's charts. Hopefully the next generation of teenagers will turn their backs on this tripe. Personally, i don;t see the sitation changing much ; ' crisis, whatr crisis?' mentality still prevails in the music industry.

[belairien]

I agree with this. modern pop sucks. I was born and raised in the '90s yet i prefer pop from the '70s and '80s

I love electronic music, but i find that today's pop just ruins what could have been a good piece of music. I myself write electronic music, but other than some trance/hard trance i tend to stay away from the very repetitive things, and lyrics... I can't sing and im not going to autotune xD

I also write the drums myself on my kit, then track it with software. well other than the good ole "Ughn tiss ughn tiss ughn tiss". But i like the electronic feel :P

I have had good feed back about it being better than pop, but i still doubt it xD

[Pollyanna]

I love electronic music, but i find that today's pop just ruins what could have been a good piece of music.

Yes, I often think the same thing - some cool melodies, riffs, basslines, grooves, sounds etc but then it either gets repeated to oblivion or the singing is cliched, vacuous, pretentious ... with hook repeated endlessly. The Formula. Not much variation in the arrangements either.

[belairien]

Yes, I often think the same thing - some cool melodies, riffs, basslines, grooves, sounds etc but then it either gets repeated to oblivion or the singing is cliched, vacuous, pretentious ... with hook repeated endlessly. The Formula. Not much variation in the arrangements either.

Its like trance... but more repetitive. and vocals that are just random syllables, or the same word looped a few times.

If i wanna hear syllables i would listen to metal. like "We Butter The Bread With Butter".... One of their songs is literally

"Jaaaaaaaaaa
Jip Jip Jip Jappijaaaa

wö dö dö oh
jö di öh
jö di dö dö oi

Au
Breeee Weeeee
bree bree bree bree bree bree bree bree
Au
Breeee Weeeee
bree bree bree bree bree bree bree bree

I Shot The Sheriff
(but not the deputaty)
I Shot The Sheriff
(but not the deputaty)

Bree bree bree bree
bree bree bree bö bi bö
Bree bree bree bree
bree bree bree bö bi bö

I Shot The Sheriff
Joooooooooooooooooooo

Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui Ooooh

Jo Jo Jo
BreeeeuuuWeeee
La La La
Jo Jo Jo
BreeeeuuuWeeee
La La La

Au
Breeee Weeeee
bree bree bree bree bree bree bree bree
Au
Breeee Weeeee
bree bree bree bree bree bree bree bree

Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui
Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui Ui"


Sounds like pop lyrics in a way :P

[Arky]

I just ran through the last few posts in this thread so what I say might be repetitive - here's my opinion:

In the end, you get what you deserve ('you' meaning those earthlings which have a pretty low standard on 'musical aesthetics', creative/organic melodic/rhythmic structures etc. but those which merely qualify as 'consumers' because that's what they are. OTOH, if even THAT music (being as low quality in terms of 'music substance' it is is enough to please those mass consumers, then everything is in balance in this regard.

Also, the term 'music BUSINESS' implies it's about making money. I can fully understand that the music business produces products which are most successful on the market. The higher musical standard, the less people will like/buy it. Or the other way round - no surprise, no mystery.

So we can rant our *sses off but it doesn't really help. Personally, I classify those 'mass music consumers' into 2 categories:

1) peeps who understand that this music is pretty low standard but like it nonetheless (their understanding stems from either a minimal amount of intellect or because they play an instrument themselves)

2) peeps who 'like' the music simply because what is airplayed massively for months or years WILL stick in one's ear (paramount parameter: hooklines!!! - although hooks can be good but you know what I mean) - quality doesn't matter because the masses are conditioned to this music sh*t. These folks remind me of a herd of lemmings - they follow wherever their leaders (=radio/tv airplay, music industry, mass media) will lead them - could well be into an abyss.

Unfortunately, this 2nd category forms the majority.

Some 20 yrs back when I began paying more attention to music and learning an instrument (first el. guitar, then ac. guitar and 1 year ago drums) there were genres of music I utterly hated (e.g. rap, techno... up to the present day), but now I've grown more tolerated towards other people's opinions (if they do have one - some people seem to be simply too stupid to have an 'own' opinion). I've learned from other musicians which I highly appreciate that as long as someone has a benefit or satisfaction when listening to ANY music, this makes sense and cannot be wrong. I do prefer to ignore the genres I'm not into, but I try not to rant on them too much. Because people are different and are entitled to different opinions. BTW, I have no problems liking diverse music genres/styles, ranging from Sarah Brightman to Slayer. I think a bit open-mindedness is a good thing (I came to this opinion gradually...).

[inneedofgrace]

I think there is a parallel between today's music and other forms of entertainment. A huge percentage of today's TV shows are now reality shows (which aren't real at all). No scripts, no character development - just stick people in a room and film them doing stupid, outrageous and dangerous (i.e. Jackass) things. Movies rely on violence, sex, computer wizardry, and things blowing up for excitement. Comedians rely on cultural and ethnic stereotypes and foul language.

IMO - all forms of entertainment have regressed significantly over the last decade or so.

[Pollyanna]

Have you noticed how many YouTube comments on videos of older bands there are by young people saying how they wished they lived in the 60s/70s/80s? It's reached the point where people are treating those comments as an annoying cliche, like commenting on the Dislike Button score.

But it's not the kids' fault ... they really are being fed shovelfuls of rubbish by the majors.

It's hard for good young bands to get mainstream attention, what with old fart stars doing their 35th comeback tour, endless formulaic hip hop and pop on music videos, noise laws and gaming machines. Put a video on YouTube with a squillion others, competing with hilarious clips of Auntie Susan's dachshund farting and messy young people ranting at the camera, offering themselves up for some self-validating hate comments.

So the now bands don't get heard as much, giving the impression to the incurious that all there is out there is Rebecca Whatsername and FM classic rock.

[belairien]

So the now bands don't get heard as much, giving the impression to the incurious that all there is out there is Rebecca Whatsername and FM classic rock.

Don't forget Justin Whatshername

Im only 20, yet i love The Beatles, Dio, Pink Floyd, and a bunch of other bands and artists from before my time. But ive noticed even rock and heavy metal of today sound more and more alike, along with all the pop artists.

For example (to me any ways) Nickleback and Hinder sound very similar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JQiEs32SqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiSfTyrvJlg

[Pollyanna]

Im only 20, yet i love The Beatles, Dio, Pink Floyd, and a bunch of other bands and artists from before my time. But ive noticed even rock and heavy metal of today sound more and more alike, along with all the pop artists.

Yes, there's a lot copying of successful formulas hitting the mainstream and increasingly less musical adventure. The pop scene is moving in ever-decreasing circles, becoming more constrained and conservative. It's much harder now for people to take creative risks because of the pressure cooker competition for the few opportunities available, hence the popularity of tribute bands.

Allied to this is the strong emphasis on "professionalism", which makes it hard for young players (especially renegades) to crack the scene. Not to mention the whole drum machine thing. Professionalism and perfection doesn't do it for me; I get enough of that in the office. When I see a band I want rawness and buzz. If they can perform their music perfectly, great, but I want the empasis on the buzz first.

The only place to find cool new music is on the web (in Oz, though I'm told there are some good "underground" US radio stations). My nephew is 19 and he's keen on Floyd too ... along with some hip hop and techno that doofs you into submission within minutes.

[belairien]

Last month i went to see the summer slaughter tour in Portland Oregon. It was mostly Deathcore/Death metal music.

To me some of the bands there, like pop, have similar sounds as each other, which is what deathcore is becoming in the metal side of things.

But the bands Whitechapel and The Black Dahlia Murder Had so much energy up on stage, that no matter how little i care for the "Deathcore" genre, i couldn't help but join in the fun.
Not only that, they have more talent than just chugging the same three chords, while the drummer plays blast beats. :P

(speaking of drummer... Black Dahlia's drummer had an amazing looking Tama kit. I believe it was two 20 inch kicks, 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 inch toms. cant remember the cymbals though)


The only place to find cool new music is on the web (in Oz, though I'm told there are some good "underground" US radio stations). My nephew is 19 and he's keen on Floyd too ... along with some hip hop and techno that doofs you into submission within minutes.

Don't forget local bands as well... For a good way of finding good music. Because two days before that, i went to a local show near my home town, and a newer band called Comeback Ten Fold played. They were damn good.

All of their songs where completely different from each other, yet still combined the same musical quality the whole time. It was a pleasant mix of punk rock and alternative with a touch of a few others.

[Joshimitsu]

Put simply pop music sucks. I have no problem with pop-rock or pop-punk(i am in a pop punk band), it's stuff like kesha, lady gaga and all the electronic and rap stuff that i hate the most

[Cliff5550]

Have you noticed how many YouTube comments on videos of older bands there are by young people saying how they wished they lived in the 60s/70s/80s? It's reached the point where people are treating those comments as an annoying cliche, like commenting on the Dislike Button score.

But it's not the kids' fault ... they really are being fed shovelfuls of rubbish by the majors.

It's hard for good young bands to get mainstream attention, what with old fart stars doing their 35th comeback tour, endless formulaic hip hop and pop on music videos, noise laws and gaming machines. Put a video on YouTube with a squillion others, competing with hilarious clips of Auntie Susan's dachshund farting and messy young people ranting at the camera, offering themselves up for some self-validating hate comments.

So the now bands don't get heard as much, giving the impression to the incurious that all there is out there is Rebecca Whatsername and FM classic rock.


All the same kind of crap was shoveled out by people my age when I started in the 60s. The "old farts" were doing their Pat Boone, Nat King Cole, Perry Como covers and us kids couldn't catch a break. Blah, blah, blah.
When today's "I want my own music and my own style" people get older they're going to hear complaints about those old techno farts making it hard for good young bands to get their mainstream attention.
The more it changes, the more it stays the same. And so it goes...

(It's kind of sad to me when I read comments by musicians that there's too much emphasis on professionalism.)

[Pollyanna]

All the same kind of crap was shoveled out by people my age when I started in the 60s. The "old farts" were doing their Pat Boone, Nat King Cole, Perry Como covers and us kids couldn't catch a break. Blah, blah, blah.
When today's "I want my own music and my own style" people get older they're going to hear complaints about those old techno farts making it hard for good young bands to get their mainstream attention.
The more it changes, the more it stays the same. And so it goes...

Sure, there's always been music with little soul or cleverness produced just for the $$, but there was a lot more real stuff on "hip" TV and radio shows.


(It's kind of sad to me when I read comments by musicians that there's too much emphasis on professionalism.)

Not very slick and a really bad bum note, but inspired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Bn0Kq7rls

This one is terribly self indulgent with all those long solos - it'll never sell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqAuuIDU2sw

Uh oh, here's a drum song - our focus groups show that people don't care for drum songs by old, unkempt guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT2J1Ot9N5c

I'm guessing you aren't saddened any more ...

[Cliff5550]

Sure, there's always been music with little soul or cleverness produced just for the $$, but there was a lot more real stuff on "hip" TV and radio shows.




Not very slick and a really bad bum note, but inspired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Bn0Kq7rls


This one is terribly self indulgent with all those long solos - it'll never sell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqAuuIDU2sw


Uh oh, here's a drum song - our focus groups show that people don't care for drum songs by old, unkempt guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT2J1Ot9N5c


I'm guessing you aren't saddened any more ...

Your examples just insulted three professionals. Way to go.
Yeah, I'm saddened at your definition of professionalism.

[Pollyanna]

Your examples just insulted three professionals. Way to go.
Yeah, I'm saddened at your definition of professionalism.

You're givin me crap now, Cliff lol

You now know what I meant by "professional" - the accent on clinical perfection over soulfulness and creativity. It's disappointing (even saddening) but so typical of risk averse big biz.

[Cliff5550]

Sorry, but no, I did not understand your thought behind "professionalism".
A "professional" musician, to me, is someone who knows his/her craft, shows on time, performs to the very best of their ability, shows respect to his/her audience, and appears on stage in attire appropriate for the event and/or performance.
I don't feel basic professionalism is something that varies based on the attitude of the artist. Certainly the many styles of music have their own accepted variances appropriate for their venue but the underlying principles of professionalism remain.