The Big Kits vs. Small Kits Debate [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

finnhiggins

07-22-2005, 09:15 AM

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.

Cheers.

I call you on that one. There's plenty of guys getting huge numbers of sounds out of tiny kits, but I don't honestly hear many big kit monsters using the full breadth and depth of sounds available in even their snare drums.

I used to be a pretty big kit kind of a guy - 6pc drum kit, two rides, three crashes, two chinas, hats, three splashes, double pedal etc. But I've recently dropped back to a kind of amalgam of two small sets:

Set 1 - 4pc drum kit (12-16-22 with 13x5 snare) with a K-Custom Dark Ride, a 16" "Old K" turkish-made Zildjian, a 16" China Boy Low and hi-hats, drums all tuned to a wide open kind of sound.

Set 2 - A percussion set including bongos, 2x Yamaha electronic pads + brain (plus a sampler via MIDI), a wood block, an 8" splash and a 10" Istanbul mini-china on top of a 10" K splash.

Depending on song sections I tend to pretty much pick between which section of the larger kit I'm playing and then treat that as an individual instrument. Each of those kits has enough possibility that you could play it for years without running out of new amazing stuff to do with it in terms of new tones, combinations and approaches. I used to just consider my snare drum to be a thing that made a "snare drum sound", now it's an instrument that has a wide range of possibilities. So is everything else on the kit. If I took an expansionist approach - I need a new sound, let's add more gear - I'd end up taking up the whole stage without developing in any particular way as a musician.

For my money, the best small kit guys (Joey Baron and his ilk) win hands down on taste, musicality and creativity over the likes of Mike Portnoy. Terry Bozzio gets to be an exception in my book though, since he's actually bothering to tune that stuff into a chromatic scale and you therefore *need* that much gear to make that approach worth bothering with at all.

CyclopseSlayer

07-22-2005, 09:30 AM

If he was playing with a band, he wouldn't use that kit .

Bozzio actually uses that kit with Fantomas. My buddy Gabe from the Locust saw him perform with them a few months ago, said it was pretty incredible to see live.

glynes

07-22-2005, 07:00 PM

I'm a little lady ... I play a relatively simple, small-size kit. I'd consider a larger kit, but only if I felt I could actually use the additional bits. It has nothing to do with compensation. (Altho some might say "simple kit - difficult woman"!) 8-)

Anduin

07-22-2005, 07:25 PM

What is the deal with humongus kits sometimes. I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what.

My kit is just one single snare drum. Unless I've just been swimming in the North Sea; then I play the ol' Ludwig Octa Plus.

Stevis

07-22-2005, 07:46 PM

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.

Cheers.

I couldn't have said it better. ;)

DogBreath

07-23-2005, 06:04 AM

I call you on that one. There's plenty of guys getting huge numbers of sounds out of tiny kits, but I don't honestly hear many big kit monsters using the full breadth and depth of sounds available in even their snare drums.

There's nothing to call me on, it's a simple fact. But let me reword it to clarify your misunderstanding:

You can play a small kit with many drums, but you can't play a big kit with few drums.

Better? And as far as some "big kit" drummers not using everything that they have available to them, all that means is that those particular drummers don't need big kits. Cool. Not everyone who buys a Corvette drives at 150 mph. But if you buy a little 4-cylinder Honda, you won't be winning any drag races. I like having options. If I want to play jazz with only my snare, bass, ride, and hi-hats, I can. My options are not limited, but a "small kit" player's options are.

Fur drummer

07-23-2005, 07:40 AM

Like I said I play a big kit and use all of it, especially when I solo. I like the options a big kit gives me. Look at it this way, I play a basic 5 piece kit with some extra drums added.

finnhiggins

07-23-2005, 09:02 AM

There's nothing to call me on, it's a simple fact. But let me reword it to clarify your misunderstanding:

You can play a small kit with many drums, but you can't play a big kit with few drums.

Better? And as far as some "big kit" drummers not using everything that they have available to them, all that means is that those particular drummers don't need big kits. Cool. Not everyone who buys a Corvette drives at 150 mph. But if you buy a little 4-cylinder Honda, you won't be winning any drag races. I like having options. If I want to play jazz with only my snare, bass, ride, and hi-hats, I can. My options are not limited, but a "small kit" player's options are.

Your analogy is flawed. It's not a comparison of power, it's a comparison of size remember :) More drums != more power. Big kits are great for music where you need to land a lot of stuff in one go (big Danny Carey toms fills etc), but for music where groove and nuance is more important then it's often easier not to have the distraction of a bunch of extra gear sitting around when your focus should really be on tone, time and and touch.

And my comment was more that big kit drummers tend to have, on average, about as many sounds as they have drums, while smaller kit drummers tend to have a lot more sounds per drum. For a start the more stuff you have the harder it gets to find new angles and approaches to hit them from, there's other stuff in the way.

Also, you may be able to play just four drums if you like... but don't tell me you can get between those four as well as somebody who *only* has four, the more stuff you have the further apart you have to put it - that's just reality. Long reaches between surfaces add major technical challenges when it comes to getting your touch and tone really precise.

Drummer_Boy

07-23-2005, 09:10 AM

In terms of big kits.........

There's a fine line between awe and rediculous!

Alex Van Halens drum set in the 1984 "Jump" video is absolute AWE! Its a true creative classic.

I have yet too see any other drumset that is big, fancy, and practical like Alex's in 1984.

Dap.

Haha, his drum kit must be like, 5 sets combined, I think he had like 3 bass drums? My god, It's huge but as you said is very practical. Altho, you never really see him using all that stuff. And plus, they're not even playing in that music video...They're always changing clothes. Also, not to mention, he's definately one of my fav drummers

DogBreath

07-23-2005, 09:14 AM

...for music where groove and nuance is more important then it's often easier not to have the distraction of a bunch of extra gear sitting around ...

So ... you get distracted when there are too many drums around? I guess I just don't have that problem.

Also, you may be able to play just four drums if you like... but don't tell me you can get between those four as well as somebody who *only* has four, the more stuff you have the further apart you have to put it - that's just reality. Long reaches between surfaces add major technical challenges when it comes to getting your touch and tone really precise.

Well, actually, I can get betwen my four drums just fine. My layout is very comfortable for me and the drums are logically placed. It's basically a four piece set surrounded by more pieces. There are no long reaches no matter what I'm playing. And that's just reality.

As I said, you can play a small set with a big kit, but you can't play a big set with a small kit. Unless you are easily distracted, in which case you should try to keep things as simple as possible.

=-)

finnhiggins

07-23-2005, 01:26 PM

So ... you get distracted when there are too many drums around? I guess I just don't have that problem.

You don't? So when a drum book says "break this up around multiple sound sources" you actually bother to find five or six different sounds out of each different surface and practice breaking up phrases around ALL of them? Or do you just hit different toms instead?

DogBreath

07-23-2005, 07:40 PM

So when a drum book says "break this up around multiple sound sources" you actually bother to find five or six different sounds out of each different surface and practice breaking up phrases around ALL of them? Or do you just hit different toms instead?

I don't really understand the question, but then I've never read that in a book. I guess I would interpret the instruction based on the context of the lesson and try whatever I thought it was suggesting. Somehow I don't think I answered your question, though.

finnhiggins

07-23-2005, 11:46 PM

I don't really understand the question, but then I've never read that in a book. I guess I would interpret the instruction based on the context of the lesson and try whatever I thought it was suggesting. Somehow I don't think I answered your question, though.

Just picking one off the top of my head, but I think there's an instruction like that in Horatio Hernandez's book... I'll go get it.

"... Don't be afraid to break up the rhythms around the drumset once you feel comfortable with the exercises".

How would you go about that? Would you break up the exercises between different drums, or try to draw multiple tones out of single drums inside a repetitive exercise?

My point is that having a big kit tends to encourage somewhat more simplistic thinking about how many sounds you can get out of one drum. So as a big kit player I used to try to break things up between maybe fifteen or sixteen surfaces and would just use a very basic sound from each surface. So if I decided to use my 12" tom I would hit it right in the centre of the head, and so forth. There was a nice wide range of tones available, so I felt happy with my gear choice.

Ditching a lot of the gear has made me more appreciative of the massive range of sounds I already have in only a very small sub-set of the kit, because when I need a new sound I actually have to work to find it instead of just reaching for another tom, cymbal or snare. So I've taken to adjusting my rimshots to different striking positions to get different tones, hitting my toms in the edge, the centre, rimshots, mashing the stick into the head, muting the head with the other stick, etc etc. My feeling is that it's quite hard to find the time to explore this kind of stuff comprehensively on a big kit as the more you do it the more the possibilities expand exponentially for each exercise.

That was why I disagreed that you can't "Play big" on a small kit. Joey Baron does, he gets a huge range of sounds out of a 4pc with two cymbals. While I'd argue that in terms of technique Mike Portnoy plays very "small" on his big kit - each piece of gear is just used to get a single sound most of the time.

TubbyDrummer18

07-24-2005, 12:28 AM

Like the great Elvin Jones said, "Less is more"

DogBreath

07-24-2005, 05:13 AM

finnhiggins

07-24-2005, 06:14 AM

finnhiggins, it sounds like you're arguing with something that I never said. If you personally get confused by too many drums, or if a large kit causes you to see each drum as only having one basic sound, then by all means you should stay away from big kits. Meanwhile, I'll be having a blast playing in a more musical way than is possible on a small kit.

OK, my argument was with this statement "Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.". Since you're making a positive statement that a big kit = more options and musicality you're also stating the converse - that a small kit has less options and less musicality.

In theory, that's true. In the same way that a jazz trio has less options and musicality than a full orchestra - quite simply, the orchestra does have more raw sounds available. But the difference there is that an orchestra actually has more people to play those sounds and dedicate time to practicing control over them. If you took the three guys from your jazz trio and told them to learn to play every instrument in an orchestra they quite simply won't have the time to make it worthwhile, even though they technically could perform at least a subset of the music an orchestra could play by running around and picking different instruments up.

I think your problem here stems from the fact that you consider a drum kit a single musical instrument. It's not. It's an amalgam of a number of different musical instruments, all of which can be studied individually as well as combined. Therefore it is natural and indeed obvious that the more instruments you decide to study, the less time you have in each day to study the nuances and details of each instrument. If you go far enough you dilute yourself so far that it's unlikely you'll develop any musicality at all on any of the instruments.

Take how a typical professional drummer plays toms - a very flexible instrument - and compare it to how a good Brazillian percussionist can play a tamborine. Drummer - "Whack", moves to next sound surface. Percussionist - a whole musical part with tone, texture and multiple overlaid sounds. The limitations of just playing just a tamborine does not result in less options or less musicality, it results in more focus on the single instrument providing those qualities in approximately the same quantity by means of control rather than variation.

So since you, as a human being, are limited in the amount of time you can devote to your kit then it follows quite simply and logically that you are distracted by the amount of gear you have. If you have only one drum and that was all you practiced you'd be much better at playing that one drum than somebody who spends the same amount practicing on a 15pc kit with 25 cymbals would be on any given one of their sound surfaces. You'd actually be able to play musical accompaniment on one drum. You would learn to play open and muted strokes. To gain different tones of accent, different styles of ghosting, to control note length. If you expand that up to even a 4pc drum kit then finding the time to do all of that becomes exponentially harder, because you have to bring in elements of co-ordination and movement around the centre line of your body. That doesn't mean that playing one drum makes you more musical or gives you more options, but the converse isn't true either.

It is an obvious truth in music that the more instruments you play, the less time you have to dedicate to learning to play one in particular. If you think that's my problem alone then I'd have to question how much you've considered the subject. A bigger kit doesn't equal more options and more musicality. More practice, study, thought and talent does. The size of your kit is entirely up to you, but if you don't practice then you won't get those options or that musicality regardless of what you play. So when you play musically on your big kit you are not playing more musically than is possible on a small one. You're just playing more musically than it is possible for you to play on a small one.

I don't think you have the right to make blanket statements like that. Which is why I said I was "Calling" you on that point.

DogBreath

07-24-2005, 06:17 AM

*shrug*

So stick to a small kit.

=-)

finnhiggins

07-24-2005, 06:33 AM

*shrug*

So stick to a small kit.

=-)

Thanks, I will :) You stick to your big one too, I'm a big fan of good big kit playing. I just didn't like the implication that it was inherantly better and more than taking the detailed approach and learning to play more things on each surface.

After all, I can't be entirely on the small kit side of the fence, can I? My kit is effectively two small ones, plus some electronics. Therefore I'm obviously making the same compromise in terms of time, I just couldn't restrain my "more gear!" impulses any further :)

toteman2

07-25-2005, 12:19 AM

I think it's pretty simple...If you have a 4 peice setup with a few cymbals you are not going to have the same possibilities as someone with a 8 peice setup with alot of cymbals woodblocks, octobans, etc...

Pedro

07-25-2005, 03:06 AM

I think it's just a trend. In the eighty's the gigantic kits were in with big toms (for e.g. van halen), now small fusion kits are in. You even see Lars Ulrich lpaying with a smaller drum.

Ok, it's not only a metter of trends, but, their is a lot of truth in it. :-)

jamsjr44

08-03-2005, 04:29 PM

Over the last couple of months I've seen a few bands live and the drummers had these monster kits. Upon actually watching them, they barely used half of the stuff they had on stage? On here I've seen some absolute beautiful drumsets with a wide range of accessories and some that just had an awful lot of stuff to play. When I first started I had the three different cowbells set-up, the wooden blocks, timbales, roto toms, electronic drum pads etc... Then I realized I maybe used them on 5 of the songs, out of the 36 songs we did those nights. So I started scaling back my stuff to what was necessary.

So my question is do you really use all of the stuff you have if your gigging or just playing alone in your basement? I know the pros mostly do. I was more wondering if the average drummer does? I know as drummers we have it great because we can add so much stuff to our kits, that guitarist can't...lol but it can become overwhelming and it stunk always being the last one to leave, besides our sound guy to pack up all the stuff I carried.

I hadn't really see a question like this on the forum so, I'm just trying to stimulate some more discussion.

drummerboy

08-03-2005, 04:38 PM

AurelienPK

08-03-2005, 04:38 PM

It is true that the drumsets with 20 cymbals, 30 toms etc... are ridiculous! It is mostly for the show, for the visual aspect of it.
My drumset is the basic drumset. A bass drum, a snare drum, two toms and a floor tom. Added to that is 1 ride cymbal and 1 crash one. I sometimes add a thick crash ride that I love. The enormous drum sets are fun but the drummers rarely use all of the cymbals and toms. When you watch Buddy Rich or allt eh important drummers, rarely do they have 1000000000000000000000 cybals and toms!!!

jamsjr44

08-03-2005, 04:47 PM

AurelienPK

08-03-2005, 04:52 PM

That's for sure!!

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum28/terrybozziokit.jpg

Anduin

08-03-2005, 05:21 PM

I only take what I feel I need to pull off whatever style of music the gig is.

In general, though, I'd rather have lots of cymbals than lots of drums. For a simple rock gig I might only bring a 4-piece kit, but it'll have ride, hats, 3 crashes and a china.

jamsjr44

08-03-2005, 05:27 PM

minnietguinea

08-03-2005, 06:07 PM

I like using a five piece kit (Bass, three toms, snare) and Hihat, 2 Crashes and a Ride with the second crash to the right and slightly above the ride cymbal. But my big kit would include:
Five Toms!
Bass Drum
Two Snare Drums!
Three Crashes!
Ride
Splash
Hihats

And of course

A Cowbell

What would your bit kits consist of?

onemat

08-03-2005, 06:16 PM

Someone once told me that it doesn't matter how big your kit is but it's how well you play it that counts. He said a good drummer doesn't need a lot of drums or gadgets to sound good. The person who told me this was none other than Levon Helm (one of my idols).

Me too on Levon. He's one of the all time greats. He can get more sounds out of a single cymbal than anybody, and what great grooves he has. I've always wanted to sit down with him. I've wondered how he is these days... Matt

insane drummer

08-03-2005, 06:17 PM

I use a basic 4 piece.

With 2 crashes, a ride, and a hi-hat. I have a splash, 2 chinas, and another crash. I hardly ever set up all 8 cymbals at once.

I also have a cowbell, a clave bell, a tambourine, a hat-trick tambourine, a woodblock, a tribell cowbell, and a few other things. I rarely use more than 2 add-ons at once.

I can't remember the last time I had all my cymbals and percussion on the kit at once.

I would one day like to have about 20 cymbals, never more than 8 in use at once.

drummerboy

08-03-2005, 06:20 PM

Me too on Levon. He's one of the all time greats. He can get more sounds out of a single cymbal than anybody, and what great grooves he has. I've always wanted to sit down with him. I've wondered how he is these days... Matt

Hi Matt....I have set down and played with Levon....you can see on my site all the pictures and stuff...anyway he is doing very well...he is doing Midnight Rambles in his studio these days...and they sell out every single time...he invited my family and me to his home last Nov and we jammed!...and I mean jammed!...check it out at www.tylerhough.com

Anduin

08-03-2005, 06:21 PM

I can't remember the last time I had all my cymbals and percussion on the kit at once.

I've never set up everything at once. Not for lack of wanting, it's just that I have way more cymbals than stands to hold them! It's good to have an inventory to select from so I can tailor the kit to the gig.

Freddie Freeloader

08-03-2005, 06:30 PM

"Look for the bare necessities
The simple bare necessities
Forget about your worries and your strife"

Milo

08-03-2005, 06:32 PM

All of my sets are big kits, sometimes huge but for gigs I scale down quite a bit. I make it practical by taking only what I need to get the job done. My cymbal selection and kit configuration varies gig to gig to fit the situation. Sometimes I have to take the size of the stage into consideration. But...at home drumming, everything comes out to play. Now if I play a KISS tribute show the 11 piece Tama will be there, lol.

What I play at home when I feel like setting it up:
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480

Drumolator

08-03-2005, 06:34 PM

I have been playing for a long time (over 35 years). At church I play a four-piece kit (bass drum, snare, two toms) with four cymbals (hats, ride, two crashes) and a jam block. In our jam-band trio, I play a four-piece kit with only three cymbals (hats, crash-ride, crash). I may add a cowbell and/or a China cymbal to the jam-band kit. I have other stuff, but I hardly ever use it. Actually, I don't think I could use all of my cymbals at once because I don't have that many cymbal stands or boom arms. Peace.

Superlow

08-03-2005, 06:40 PM

The biggest factor of me not playing a BIG is due to space contraints and the fact that I have been playing gigs quite regularly since I started playing the drums. I don't like lugging around a lot of equipment it's not fun. I play a four piece with a high-hat and two rides. I have grown very comfortable with this setup. However if I had a roadie or drum technician I would gladly add another rack tom and floor tom, not to mention some more rides.

Anduin

08-03-2005, 06:43 PM

But one of the coolest recordings I did was a completely unplanned one. Got a call in the morning, grabbed bass drum, snare, hi hat, and ride, and hit the studio. Really forced me to work at coming up with interesting playing, 'cause the kit was so minimal.

Jaymasta

08-03-2005, 06:48 PM

I once put both my drumsets together and it had four toms across, 2 floor toms, 2 base drums, 6 cymbals but it didn't sound good at all because there were all differently tuned and stuff and I was lazy and didn't feel like working on it anymore so I just stuck with a 5 piece set I think it's better to practise with that and learn more and then switch to double bass that's what I'm thinking of doing but if this isn't a good idea please tell me

jamsjr44

08-03-2005, 07:09 PM

DogBreath

08-03-2005, 07:24 PM

aahznightsky

08-03-2005, 07:43 PM

finnhiggins

08-03-2005, 09:45 PM

I really don't get the "Big Sets Suck" logic. A drumset is a musical instrument! Can you imagine a piano player saying, "I realised that there were keys that I only used on 5 out of the 35 songs that I usually play, so I took a chisel and hammer and removed those keys"?

Guess what I have right smack in the middle of my big set? A small set! Sometimes I have a ball and play my whole set for all that it's worth, and sometimes I grab my Regal Tip brushes and only play the bass, snare, and hi-hats. It's all good, people.

Your piano analogy is silly, although your other point is better. You don't see any drummers chiseling bits of their gear off either. It's more like a guitarist leaving some of their FX pedals at home, which is entirely reasonable if they're not being used well enough that they make a difference.

I'm sure you know where I stand on kit size, but on the practicality front I definitely prefer small kits. Spending an hour setting up for every gig gets boring real fast. Even my current kit is too big for my taste, but I can't get away with less on my current gig considering the fact that I'm being constantly hassled to bring more stuff...

Brent W

08-03-2005, 09:58 PM

I think your drum kit is completely dependent upon what you are doing musically. I have a relatively large kit (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=867), but it is very unrealistic for gigging. Dependent upon the gig I either take pieces of that drum kit or I use my secondary drum kit, which is a simple 5 piece Oak Custom kit with 2 crashes, a splash, a china, hats, and a ride. As far as studio work goes, I like lots of options, hence I have a lot of things in my kit. And to be honest I always find a use for every small piece on my drum kit. Unfortunately, I find myself not willing to sacrifice small things on gigs (like chimes or a certain effects cymbal that I only use for 1 or 2 songs in a night), thus they pile up and I'm left with a monster. I love all types of drum kits! Before moving to a big kit I played a VERY small drum kit (in competition for the smallest kit I think). It was a premier artist birch kit with a 10x5.5 tom, 13x11 floor tom, 13x5.5 snare, and 20x8 bass drum (yes 20x8 not 18!). I loved that kit and it was super tight and comfortable to play, but as my musical tastes developed and I started venturing into new types of music my kit just grew and grew. But to be honest I find that my playing is more creative on a smaller kit. It really forces you to think rudimentally, dynamically, and articulately. I find when I play on my bigger kit I depend more on certain pieces of the kit to change the dynamic and articulations, where on a small kit, you change these things by your playing, which is really more authentic playing. But in the end there is no law saying you can't play creatively, articlately, dynamically, and rudimentally on a large kit! It is like a wardrobe really, we all like wearing different clothes, because some are comfortable to us, but not for others. The choice of size and complexity of your kit is no different than the choice of colour for the kit. It all comes down to preference.

-Brent

Brent W

08-03-2005, 10:10 PM

There's nothing to call me on, it's a simple fact. But let me reword it to clarify your misunderstanding:

You can play a small kit with many drums, but you can't play a big kit with few drums.

Better? And as far as some "big kit" drummers not using everything that they have available to them, all that means is that those particular drummers don't need big kits. Cool. Not everyone who buys a Corvette drives at 150 mph. But if you buy a little 4-cylinder Honda, you won't be winning any drag races. I like having options. If I want to play jazz with only my snare, bass, ride, and hi-hats, I can. My options are not limited, but a "small kit" player's options are.

I think that post pretty much won the argument. It is true, a lot of guys don't use their FULL kit. I have a big kit, but everything I have on it and the way it is arranged is very practical. It just depends on what you sonically want to achieve. Sometimes I can get away with just a crash, a ride, hats, a kick, and snare, but theres a lot of gigs and recording jobs I do where a small kit like that just would not do.

In the end it is all preference! The more you have the more options you have, but in the same context I find that depriving myself of things from a kit really forces me to think differently and play differently. I could never be satisfied with one single drum kit (no matter how big or small it might be). My drumming desires change like the weather, so I often switch pieces in a set up or buy a whole new kit. It is cool to always want to try more things. This goes for everything in life. The second you stop challenging yourself and become 'satisfied' or 'comfortable' means that you won't get any better or more versatile. I think every drummer should have a balance of playing on a big kit and a small kit.

-Brent

DogBreath

08-03-2005, 10:21 PM

Brent, you will learn that in some of these discussions NOTHING wins an argument. But thanks.

=-)

.

finnhiggins

08-03-2005, 10:23 PM

Brent, you will learn that in some of these discussions NOTHING wins an argument. But thanks.
.

You mean, nothing short of nuclear war? That'd probably do it.

DogBreath

08-03-2005, 10:30 PM

No, we have a contingency plan for that. The mutants would take over for you, and the bugs would take over for Stu. It would go somethjing like this:

Fin: RAWR!

Stu: Bzzzzzzzz.

Fin: BRAINS!

Stu: Hsssssssss.

finnhiggins

08-03-2005, 10:34 PM

Have you seen Land of the Dead? I want to be in that zombie brass band... so amend that one...

Finn: Honk!

Stu: Bzzzzzz

Finn: Brwarp!

Stu: Fzzt.

Anduin

08-03-2005, 10:51 PM

I bet there's a very similar but inverted argument on the Rick Wakeman forum.

finnhiggins

08-03-2005, 10:58 PM

Pwarp!

Bzzt!

Still not twenty characters? Argh.

DogBreath

08-03-2005, 11:34 PM

I don't think you have the right to make blanket statements like that.
I'm still chuckling over that one. The man is keeping me down!

Isaac

08-04-2005, 12:16 AM

Take how a typical professional drummer plays toms - a very flexible instrument - and compare it to how a good Brazillian percussionist can play a tamborine. Drummer - "Whack", moves to next sound surface. Percussionist - a whole musical part with tone, texture and multiple overlaid sounds. The limitations of just playing just a tamborine does not result in less options or less musicality, it results in more focus on the single instrument providing those qualities in approximately the same quantity by means of control rather than variation.

but surely if the Brazillian Percussionist had 2 tambourines he could make twice the sounds...

Isaac

08-04-2005, 12:33 AM

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 12:43 AM

Exactly.
.

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 12:53 AM

but there is no way possible that someone with a four piece can make more sounds than some with a five piece kit (if they have the same number of cymbals) because u have one more drum to make noise with.

ur sayin with a small kit u make more sounds from each drum. (I think u listed four different sounds). So someone with 4 drums can make four sounds on each drum = 16 sounds.someone with 5 drums must be able to make the same four sounds from each drum, meaning the can make more sound (5 drums x 4 sounds = 20)

just because someone has a lot of drums, doesnt mean they cant make as many noises from each drum

Wow, deja vu here. I'm back in the same discussion.

Your maths are flawed. There's *way* more than four sounds you can get out of a drum. Let's try with the snare, not including taking the snares off or using other implements to strike the drum.

Ordinary strokes:
* To the centre of the head
* To the edge of the head
* To a number of points in between - how many sound distinct depends on heads and tuning.
* All of the above, with the head muted by the other hand
* All of the above, with the head muted by pressure from the other stick
* Strokes to the rim with the tip of the stick
* Strokes to the rim using a point near where the hands grip the stick.

Rimshots:
* All of the above stroke combinations apart from rims, plus the ability to vary the %age of rim/head you hit to alter the tone.

Drags/buzzes:
* All of the above ordinary combinations, including rims

Cross-stick:
* Played "closed" so that the hand rests on the drum after the stroke
* Played "open" (like Stewart Copeland) so that the hand lifts off the head after the stroke.
* Each of the above can be played at least two ways, as you get different pitches depending on where the stick strikes the rim.

I'm probably missing some. But that's just one drum. Expand that out to four drums, two cymbals and a hi-hat and tell me how many combinations that is. Now tell me how much time it is going to take you to build up the fine control to access all of those sounds reliably, even on that small a kit.

Now expand that to a 7pc kit with 10 cymbals and tell me how much more time it is going to take to develop that kind of fine control on *that* scale when you need to move longer distances faster and have more sheer sounds available to you.

My point here is that many players who buy big kits do it instead of working on that kind of fine control. I would argue that the majority of players who buy big kits do that, judging by my experience of watching drummers play. That's fine, I enjoy big kit playing as its own thing - but suggesting that it is somehow inherantly more flexible than a small kit is somewhat false when the vast majority of drummers playing big kits haven't even touched the inherent flexibility in a 3pc kit, let alone a 7pc. It doesn't matter if your car can do 500kph if you only ever drive 50.

That's me out for this conversation, since I'm really not here to engage in full scale war with everybody :) I'm supposed to be transcribing, you distracting bastards.. if you let me finish I'll post it! I promise!

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 12:57 AM

Fin, take a deep breath.

Anything you can play on one drum, you can play on two, and then some. There's your math.

If YOU PERSONALLY become confused around too many drums, for goodness sake STAY AWAY FROM BIG DRUM SETS.

Leave the musical stuff to the rest of us.

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 01:15 AM

Fin, take a deep breath.

Anything you can play on one drum, you can play on two, and then some. There's your math.

Really? Let's see a video of you playing a sequence of single strokes in the following pattern:

RH: Floor tom, rim, striking near tip of stick.
LH: Edge ping on a cymbal.
RH: Rimshot on high tom tom
LH: Open cross-stick on a high tom
RH: Rimshot on the snare
LH: Open hi-hat.

No practicing for hours. Just bust it out, in sextuplets, as if you're playing a fill in a song - and keep the dynamics down too, nothing aggressive. I'm sure you can play all of those strokes on at least one drum, and I'm sure you can play singles at that speed - so can you combine them effortlessly around the kit, with a consistent tone and good time?

That kind of fine sound control is quite hard to achieve once you move away from even the comfort zone of the snare. Not even double strokes on the snare translates to every other surface on the kit without additional practice.

The more stuff you have, the further you have to reach for the sounds. Long reaches at speed = less fine control when you arrive at the surface you're aiming for. The more fine control you need when you arrive, the more you have to practice the stuff for it to be usable.

While that sequence isn't easy on a small kit, it's certainly harder on a big one with longer reaches involved.

toteman2

08-04-2005, 01:27 AM

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 01:38 AM

OK Fin, let me see you on video, playing with a four piece set, a run up and down nine toms. No practicing. See? Can't be done, ever. That's your limitation.

But if the stroke pattern that you mentioned can be played on a small kit, the same drummer can play it as easily on a big kit . . . if the core of it is set up in a comfortable fashion. Remember, a big kit can be set up so that a small kit is right in the middle of it. Are you starting to follow? Anything that you can play on a small kit can be played on a large kit, but not everything that can be played on a large kit can be played on a small kit. Simple, easy, factual, unarguable.

A wise man once said, "Argue your limitations, and sure enough they are yours."

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 01:41 AM

I'm going to try to end this argument because it's getting a little strange...Here is an undisputable fact...A person who has a 8 peice set-up 10,12,13,14,16,18, 22, with 10 cymbals with all different sounds is going to have more options and more sounds availible then a person who has a 4 peice set up with 10,12,14,22, with 3 cymbals...

I will agree with that.

Similarly, a person who has a 256-piece setup with every drum size ranging from 1" down to 64" in 1/4" increments has a wider range of sounds again. However that kit is going to be unfeasible to get around with any kind of control unless they're some kind of olympic runner, and I don't think any of you will argue that it's musically necessary to use a kit like that for anything whatsoever. So there's obviously a cut-off somewhere, and my suggestion would be that the cut-off for any given individual is the point where they become unable to access the majority of the sounds in any of their given sound sources. My experience of big kit players is that the majority of them fall into this category - they don't have the control to justify all of what they're using.

If you're not one of that majority, all power to you - you've achieved plenty. Speaking for myself, I don't even think I've got full control over a 4pc with two cymbals yet, but if playing every single sound available on that configuration of kit is easy for you then all power to you - you obviously need a bigger one!

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 01:49 AM

Similarly, a person who has a 256-piece setup with every drum size ranging from 1" down to 64" in 1/4" increments has a wider range of sounds again.
Nice logic. My equally logical response would be that a guy with two drinking straws and a cork beer coaster would be somewhat limited in his range of sounds. But I guess that if I had to resort to such a pointless comparison then I would be admitting the loss of the argument.

=-)

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 01:52 AM

But if the stroke pattern that you mentioned can be played on a small kit, the same drummer can play it as easily on a big kit . . . if the core of it is set up in a comfortable fashion. Remember, a big kit can be set up so that a small kit is right in the middle of it. Are you starting to follow?

I understand your argument, but it's false. Are you telling me that if you only had a 4pc and two cymbals you'd position them like you currently do in your kit photos, just minus all the other gear? That would be about the most awkward 4pc I've ever seen.

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 01:58 AM

So let's see . . . your challenge to me would be "awkward," and my challenge to you would be "imposible." Guess it's settled again.

Stu_Strib

08-04-2005, 02:04 AM

You are ALL wrong.

Medium kits are the best. Specifically my 6 piece Yamaha beech/maple custom Absolute.

And for future reference, I prefer to be Zombies instead of Bugs.

Stu

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 02:08 AM

Ok, Stu is Zombies, Fin is bugs, and I am two drinking straws and a cork beer coaster.

Stu: RAWR!

Fin: Bzzzzzzzzzz.

DB: *

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Aw, but bugs can't be in a brass band!

somedrummer

08-04-2005, 02:47 AM

I personally own large kits because of the possiblities they bring. I like em big and loud most of the time too. But I can always break them down into a 5 piece, or two 5 pieces for that matter. Most gigs I just take 5 or 6 pieces and less cymbals because it's too much stuff. But at home I have everything set up.

I agree. I really own a large kit because its discontinued and I wanted (and still want) to pick up as many pieces of it as I can. However, I no longer leave the house with more than a 4 piece kit. I also feel that a bigger kit does not always mean more musicality, but it does mean more options. I personally feel that I play more musically on a smaller kit than some big monster. A small kit makes you use what you've got more creatively, rather than just hit everything you have without as much musicality.

larkin42

08-04-2005, 03:09 AM

I would agree, i wouldn't want 30 toms, 50 cymbals etc, but some people actually use all of it, like Neil Peart, one of my favortite drummers, he uses everything and is amazing with it, but another thing that is important is, that he is also just as amazing on a five piece kit too.

aahznightsky

08-04-2005, 03:32 AM

A wise man once said, "Argue your limitations, and sure enough they are yours."

I love DG's taste in books! Plus, he's been totally right throughout this entire discussion ...

scuffler

08-04-2005, 03:32 AM

when i 1st started playing drums i got into double bass drums had fair size drum set 7 or 8
piece kit loaded with cymbals and had lots of fun with it, i also at that time , had very little or no knowledge of drumming basically just what i could imulate.Certainly no idea of any
form of stick control.lolol At some point i started to take private instructions from a pro.
For me as soon as i was wrapped up in the learning of it all i realized that, the things iwas learning, like rudimentals studies, to swing , tons of latin grooves,foot patterns on and on and on all were based on the small kits( 4 piece few cymbals,, so too me knowledge is king and it never stops.

recently, i combined my to sets of SONORS, back to the double bass drums what a blast
10 piece drumset, with 2HH and 8 cymbals ,but now i can take concepts that i learnt on the 4 piece and apply them to the big kit, plus the double BD applications that i learned earlier.The drum set is a wonderous thing and yu will never stop learning ther is no end(thank god)

so for me, the small kit removes alot of the confusion when trying to learn , its a distraction
having to many things..plus in the beginning yur working on yur grip ,yur posture,reading
rudiments,foot technique, volume, stickings,counting,lefthand exs, and im not saying a guy is no good cause he doesnt study but it sure opens doors.also some times it feels to me like its all one surface,and more about the structure yu create with yur limbs through time and note values, and groove.. any ways sorry about the hairy rant , its my 1st post thanks for having me Bernhard this site rocks cat.. you da man

aahznightsky

08-04-2005, 03:35 AM

I bet there's a very similar but inverted argument on the Rick Wakeman forum.

*chuckle* for sure! And the capes to boot!

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 04:38 AM

Nice logic. My equally logical response would be that a guy with two drinking straws and a cork beer coaster would be somewhat limited in his range of sounds. But I guess that if I had to resort to such a pointless comparison then I would be admitting the loss of the argument.

=-)

Taking one last stab at getting you to understand...

Not really, it's not pointless. If we put those two extremes on the table, we're agreed there's such a thing as "Too limited in ability to make sound to be musically useful" and also such a thing as "Too much stuff to be anything other than silly" right? So how do you draw the line between the two? My answer is that the line is drawn by the ability of the player to play that kit to its full musical extent. You might even find some freak of a percussionist who could put that 256-piece kit into a sub-chromatic tuning and play bizarre Asian music using quarter-tones or smaller. But they'd certainly be a freak and that kit would be less than useful for most people.

The whole reason I got involved in debating this one was that the assertion was being made that big kits were somehow inherantly more "musical". Implying that having a big kit automatically improves the music a given drummer plays on it. I doubt that - they give you plenty to think about other than music. Show me a big kit player who thinks about tone, phrasing and subtlety and I'll show you fifty thinking about how to play decending single-stroke rolls on toms cleanly.

Small kits give you virtually nothing to think about OTHER than music. My contention is that thought is what creates musicality, not gear. You can have all the gear in the world without dedicating any thought to musicality, and you can have all the musicality in the world with only one or two drums. That's not to say that big kits = bad musician or that small kit = good musician. If you're focused enough to use it brilliantly then all power to you, but my experience from playing drums and watching drummers is that the majority of big kit drummers I've seen have at least part of their focus on getting around their kit smoothly, rather than the music they're playing.

Having given a small kit a try I don't think I really want to go back to a big one, because my feeling is that a small kit promotes better control of drum music in the same way that learning acoustic guitar promotes better control of guitar music. That's not to say that electric guitars and big kits have no advantages, just that much of the time those advantages are never used. As my years of playing drums increase my estimation of my ability decreases, even as my ability itself goes up from an objective point of view - the more I learn, the more I realise there is left to learn. So my feeling is that playing a small kit gives me more ability to focus on that stuff, rather than just chasing the mechanical aspects you see Thomas Lang talking about on his DVD with all of those drum -> cymbal triplet sticking combinations. If I play a smaller kit, that stuff quite simply takes up less of my practice time and leaves me more time to get on with other things that do more for my musicality, like controlling my tone, my timing, my groove and my understanding of rhythm. There's only so many hours in a day.

As it is, I'br probably speny far too many of them arguing this point, so I'll concede now and say OK - you win. I've never claimed you should switch to a smaller kit, just that I don't think it's correct to say that a bigger kit is inherantly better for the musicality of the person sitting behind it. My experience and that of other people here suggests otherwise, so using a phrase like "more musicality" is probably going a bit out on a limb.

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 05:08 AM

Hang on, let me spit out all of these words that you put in my mouth.

* . . . . . . . . . . . . . *

OK, all better. All of your points add up to the same thing, and that is generally that you prefer smaller kits, and specifically you don't play bigger kits very well, mostly due to confusion or distraction. I concede to you both of those points. Meanwhile I have a kit that allows me to play everything that you can, and a whole bunch of stuff that you can't. Cool. My experience, and that of many people here and elsewhere, is that your options are more limited than mine.

And as to the whole "musicality" issue, a bigger drumset is inherently more musical, unless of course all of your drums are identical in size and tuning.

illy

08-04-2005, 05:15 AM

finnhiggins

08-04-2005, 05:42 AM

good god this post...

i think you guys will never come to a conclusion because i think even though it may seem you guys are arguing about the same topic, you're not.

finn is arguing for the musicality of the player while dog is stating the obvious opening of sound options you get with a larger kit.

TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT TOPICS. just agree that they are and it's over.

in any case, play whatever you are comfortable with. big, small, doesn't matter. it's up to you.

I do understand that Dog is just going for the obvious "more drums = more possible sounds" argument, but that's only one half of the equation. A drum kit sitting on a stage, alone, has no sound whatsoever other than some sympathetic resonance. The possibility is there, but it's not being used. Dog would argue that without a big drumkit the potential of the player is not being fully used... but I think that it just goes into finding new, creative ways to express yourself instead of re-arranging familiar patterns onto different gear.

So the way I see it is that musicality is entirely from the player, it's entirely possible - and IMHO more common than not - for a drummer to play unmusically on a huge kit. My suggestion is that a small kit presents more opportunity to the player to focus and understand what they're doing, on more levels.

Ironically, this is a similar argument to the one Stu is trying to deploy against me over in the PC vs Mac thread - so if you want to argue with "Simplicity makes you more productive" then you can at least argue it with Stu so I can go grab a coffee :)

Fur drummer

08-04-2005, 05:54 AM

My kit is so big they have to make the stage bigger so it will fit. I'm just kidding. Seriously I do play an 11 piece kit and I do use all of it. I have set that thing up and tore it down so many times that I have gotten pretty quick at it. Yes I would say my kit is practical for me.

DogBreath

08-04-2005, 06:00 AM

I just like how you keep saying you're done. Well, I also like how you say my point is "obvious." I thought so, too.

illy

08-04-2005, 06:10 AM

4 piece, 1 ride, 2 crash, 1 splash.

that's it!

toteman2

08-04-2005, 06:18 AM

My suggestion is that a small kit presents more opportunity to the player to focus and understand what they're doing, on more levels.

Why didn't you just say that in the first place?

mikkeydee

08-04-2005, 06:29 AM

some drummers like bozzio really utilize and do need that big kit to make the sound they want out of their composition.
why most others like portnoy guys dont. they just randomly flash on toms without even remember what they are doing each time.

G-MaN91

08-04-2005, 06:36 AM

4 piece, 1 ride, 2 crash, 1 splash.

that's it!

lol, no hihats? (more characters)

illy

08-04-2005, 06:42 AM

lol. no, i use two tupperware lids instead. yes, my bad. hi-hats too.

krazykenny5150

08-04-2005, 09:24 AM

i have a 7 piece, and i often use all 7 pieces, no cymbal or drum goes unused for a long period of time.

jamndrummer

08-04-2005, 09:54 AM

Although I play with either a 5pc or 7 pc kit......I dont really see anything wrong with a big kit even if the drummer doesnt always use it......you can improvise or rather be forced to improvise more on a smaller kit, but there are benefits to a larger kit, like more drums and cymbals more different sounds to play with....and you might not need to use them in every setting but I suppose it cant hurt if you like having all that around.......dont really see it a problem if its someone else's kit......it dont affect me none.....

Just like we all have our own preference of kits we choose or can afford or cymbals or sticks.......drummers use different amounts of drums and cymbals......

NUTHA JASON

08-04-2005, 11:08 AM

the more gigs you do the smaller your kit gets. until you get a roady ... then it depends on personal taste.

i love my five piece and 7 cymbals. but one day i want a monster kit like dogbreath's just to keep at home and like he says give the whole thing a work out. as for bozzio's kit i'm sure we would all love to mess around on it...perhaps with him not there tho.

j

silver_one_drummer127

08-04-2005, 11:37 AM

I personally prefer nice 6 piece or 7 piece drum kits nice and medium sized not too big and not too small.But its a matter of taste really.

fusssion

08-04-2005, 07:41 PM

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.

Cheers.

I know I'm late joining this........but...........

I think it depends on the genre of music being played............Jeff Hamilton is a great example that defies your statement above Dog Breath.....not being a jerk or anything...but that guy plays BIG on a 18-12-14-5x14snare and 3 cymbals.......uses every trick in the book ........plays the rims....hardware...you name it.......

I think the music being played is the key factor.........

Stu_Strib

08-04-2005, 08:37 PM

I think the points being made are with more toms you have more pitches. That's indisputable. But others are saying you don't need more pitches to have a good drum sound.

drumzalicious

08-05-2005, 06:22 AM

i actually use all the stuff on my set. i actually took back a double bass pedal because i wasn't using the left side at all. thats why when i add on to my set with cymbals i always think. "will i use this?"

DogBreath

08-05-2005, 06:43 AM

fusssion, I reworded that after the post you quoted because the way I originally said it it was too easy to misinterpret my meaning. Of course you can play "big" on a small kit. But you can play the same on a bigger kit, and then some.

Stu has the right idea of the two main points being supported, but unfortunately some people were taking it to extremes while defending small kits. It makes perfect sense to say "I prefer small kits" or "big kits frighten and confuse me" or even "in my opinion, small kits are more appropriate for certain types of music," but to say "small kits make you a better drummer" is just silly.

spacebeat3117

08-05-2005, 05:18 PM

I use a 5 piece with 3 crashes ,a ride, hi hats , a china and a splash and i use every inch of it.

jamsjr44

08-05-2005, 05:21 PM

[QUOTE=DogBreath]I really don't get the "Big Sets Suck" logic. A drumset is a musical instrument! Can you imagine a piano player saying, "I realised that there were keys that I only used on 5 out of the 35 songs that I usually play, so I took a chisel and hammer and removed those keys"?

AS usual you don't get what I am saying, why am I not surprised??? I never said big sets suck, I said is you set practical? I know people add things to there sets because they look cool or for the sake of having a big kit which is there preference. My point was just to stimulate a conversation and ask if all the stuff people have that I seen on here practical. In your case it seems to be and I couldn't be happier for you.

fusssion

08-05-2005, 06:01 PM

Once again it all boils down to the music you play....and what gig you're doing !

Essentially......it would be perfect to have 2 ...or.....one large kit that can be easily broken down into different kits.......

the smallest would probably be ...say....10-12-14-16-22 , a snare or 2 .....then you could do jazz.....fusion, ......and rock with different set ups.........cymbals would work the same way ......have different sizes and styles for different gigs.....

it's all personal preference..............currently........I'm doing a rock gig.....5 piece kit, 5 cymbals.....very practical...FOR WHAT I'M DOING!

So ...it's not all so cut and dry when it comes to answering this post.....

DogBreath

08-05-2005, 06:18 PM

AS usual you don't get what I am saying, why am I not surprised??? I never said big sets suck.
Then why do you assume that I'm quoting you? I meant people who have that mentality.

=-)
.

Fldrummer

08-05-2005, 10:36 PM

Good drummers can deal what what ever they have mostly. Yea.. some have huge kits. maybe its a confidence thing.

This mp3 is from Dave Dicenso playing on a 2 piece kit (snare kick)
http://www.davedicenso.com/mp3/462001Drumsolo.mp3

Dont forget to check out his site too
http://www.davedicenso.com

Steve Hass has also rocked the 2 piece before. Wohooo

These guys are good.

Sticksman

08-05-2005, 11:23 PM

nate

08-06-2005, 02:40 AM

4 pce for me - with hats a crash and ride. small is good for my style - thinking about losing another drum as well....i love seeing drummers doing interesting things on tiny kits

Recently i saw the Von Bondies play - the drummer used no hi-hat, it was great - really good - he had a good groove...

big kits are fun too - but not for me (I’d be lost)

MaxRoach

08-06-2005, 02:57 AM

Interesting. Sorry, I'm ignorant, but why would you want more than two rides, along with apparently no crashes? Is that the type of band you have?
I wouldn't mind 50 rides for jazz....so many different colours.....but crashes can definitely do the same....it's just that rides tend to give a longer/darker sound

Smoky_McPot

08-06-2005, 10:58 AM

My poor drumkit is a slowly evolving beast. My 1st drumkit, started as std 5 pce kit, hi hat, ride and crash. i now have an A custom 17" crash, 18" china, 10" splash, cowbell and a keg hehe which i use an old single pedal on. It suits me fine, now i just need to save enough dollars to buy a new kit hehehe but im happy with the setup. Actually something noone has commented on so far is the actual practicality of playing thier kit. I read an interview with Mike Mangini in the Australian Drumscene mag, where he describes his ambidexterous kit. He puts the hihat in the center and has a mirror image on each side. I think my kit is very practical, and balanced, i like symmetry aswell so i have my drums set up as std, 3 cymbals to the left of the toms, 3 to the right and the cowbell in the middle. Does anyone else have a particular set up that makes playing the kit "practical"?

rendezvous_drummer

08-08-2005, 03:34 AM

my drumset is very basic. 4 piece, single pedal, hi hats, 2 crashes, and a ride. It has done me well because now i learn alot more so that i dont have to depend on 6 or 7 toms.

SpiderPine

08-08-2005, 08:44 PM

its not the size of the wand...but the magic of the wizard who is waving it.

Teenage Drumma

09-03-2005, 04:15 PM

jonescrusher

09-03-2005, 04:19 PM

I woud tend to agree that less is more - its a reflection of the skill and touch of the drummer to get a large array of sounds from a small set, Buddy Rich being the master of this. I would say that even the double bass is not necessary, it is possible to develop your single foot technique and combine with hand technique to anything (musical) that a double bass drummer can do.
That said, IMO the more the cymbals the better, cos it looks nice :)

joshpotts

09-03-2005, 04:31 PM

I would personnally prefer to have a larger kit, but I've always had a 5 piece kit, and I don't really see that much need for a really big kit. Although I do think that more cymbals is better, to get a variety of sounds, such as cup chimes and splashes etc.

I am looking into getting a six piece kit, as I have always wanted a 6 piece kit, but I think that that is a sensible size.

Thinshells

09-03-2005, 04:32 PM

I recently picked up a DVD of the rock group Triumph at the Us festival in 1983. Gil Moore used this big kit, and I noticed that each of his fills could be done on a kit that is significantly smaller for the same sound and effect.

There is no "right" kit, there is only your personal preference and what you can play. get and keep the size kit that you are comfortable with. My kit isn't the biggest, but it represents exactly what I want, and can play.

(optimally, a spectral spread of 8,10,12,14,16,18 toms and a single kick.) I use a main and side snare with a variety of cymbals.

I don't need all of it for all music that I play, but I can always use less drums.

mlehnertz

09-03-2005, 04:39 PM

I've got more drums than I know what to do with. The sizes go 8", 10", 12", 13", 14", 16" and a single 22" bass. My snares are the classic Ludwig Supraphonic, and two Yamaha snares (3.5" brass piccolo and 8" wood snare). Cymbals - hi-hat, ride, spash, china, 3 various sized/sound crash cymbals. Many others in the cases.

Sometimes I take the 8/10/12/16 set up with a full compliment of cymbals.

Sometimes I find myself taking the bass, snare, hi-hat, ride and single crash.

It really depends on the gig.

mediocrefunkybeat

09-03-2005, 05:05 PM

My personal preferences lean towards a medium-sized kit, say a 7 piece. Anything bigger and I'd be lost! However, an example of one who uses and utilises a large kit is Neil Peart, he has used every single bit of his kit at some point of his career in Rush. In the 'Burning for Buddy' sessions, he used nothing larger than a 4 or 5 piece kit, but he used it all to its full potential.

There is such a thing as overkill, but only when half the kit is for show... but as entertainers there could be a level of spectacle built in too I suppose. So a large kit could be considered good as a bit of crowd pleaser in some situations.

davodi74

09-03-2005, 06:24 PM

I respect drummers like neil peart and mike portnoy and carter beuford with their big kits; they are amazing, dont get me wrong, but i think that another way one can show skill is by making magic happen with a very small kit, like a four or five piece kit and a few cymbals. Well, I would prefer a Peart sized kit to a four piece, but I still think think a drummer that can make magic on a small kit can make magic on any kit.

mlehnertz

09-03-2005, 10:26 PM

There was a band out of NYC called "Second Step" 10-15 years ago and fortunately they made it to RI on occasion. They had a drummer out of Baltimore. They were a R&B/Funk group with sax, bone, trumpet, bass, guitar, drums and lead singer. Energy out the caboose. The drummer's set up - bass, snare, three cymbals and hi-hat. He had such skill and taste as a player that you never noticed the fact that was all he had for equipment. It's not the amount of drums, it's how you use them.

Come to think of it, I think he was a student of Gary Chaffee for a time - or that may have been their second drummer.

I respect drummers like neil peart and mike portnoy and carter beuford with their big kits; they are amazing, dont get me wrong, but i think that another way one can show skill is by making magic happen with a very small kit, like a four or five piece kit and a few cymbals. Well, I would prefer a Peart sized kit to a four piece, but I still think think a drummer that can make magic on a small kit can make magic on any kit.

THE ANIMAL

09-03-2005, 10:36 PM

I really think it depends on the individual's preference,ability and style of music that he is required to play.
Another factor is the venue and the interaction with other musicians.
My main gigging and recording kit at the moment, { for classic rock & blues }, is s follows:

8" 10" 12" 14" 16" toms, snare and 22" bass drum.

15" Hatts, 20" rock & 20" ping ride, 2 x 16" crash, 17" crash, 18" crash, 6" & 10" splash, 18" china and 20" china.

I've just come out of the studio today and the kit has recorded great, i particularly like the sound of the run down on the toms that you just couldn't achieve using only a couple of drums.

beat1212

09-04-2005, 12:07 AM

now i ahve a four peice kit. 2 toms. snare and kick. i only ahve 2 crashes and a ride.i do use doubel kick too. i hhave alwasy been comfortable playing on a small kit. the 4 perice works great. but recetly i ahve been considerign adding a 10 inch and 14 inch tom to my set for a more variety of soudsn for filsl and grooves. i am playing alto mor emetal now too and it makes sense to get more toms so i can do longer fils wihtout going back and forth on the 2 toms. i am also consifering addign more cymbals.
personally i think kit size has alot to do with waht type of music you play. in msot pop muisic when ppl are playing the rock beat 90% of the time there is nto poitn ot have 20 crahes adn 10 toms. but in metal and prog music you need alot mroe soudn sources to give moe variety to the parts.

theduke86

09-04-2005, 01:27 AM

I have three kits that are all four pieces. I like the abillity to pack it up and go places easily. So what if I can't do huge cascading single stroke rolls down the kit? That's not my style- I like what I have for what I do.

sloppyjoe

09-04-2005, 03:35 AM

Well I like both. I'm going to try like a seven or eight soon to see how I like it. But when I play on larger sets I feel more powerfull. I can't really explain it but it feels good. Not like the ones that take a full sized mobile home to store it in. Though I would be lost but i can adapt quickly. I have a 5 right now.

aahznightsky

09-04-2005, 04:06 AM

OK so there's no answer beyond personal preference ...

I myself am planning a drumset collection of a number of different types and sizes of kits, small 4 piece kits, giant 11 piece kits, ones for hip hop, a two piece vintage jazz kit hehe, and of course my own concoction symmetrical kit ... plus whatever else anyways

it is an undeniable fact of course, that you cannot get the sound of say a 13" china from a sizzle ride, or even a 18" china for that matter. Even if a person can get a dozen sounds from one cymbal or drum, that only means that they can get two dozen sounds from two cymbals or drums. The fact is that there are alot more sound possibilities with a bigger kit.

on the other side of the coin, it is true that alot of the players with the huge kits don't use each individual piece of it as diversely as for example, peter erskine. But that's their fault. When there are people with huge kits that do have the sublties of an erskine or bruford, then there ya go. It's still the drummer that makes the performance, not the drumset. You all say "I'd rather see a drummer kill on a little four piece than see someone bash around on a double bass seven tom kit with no skill." Well of course you would! But when someone plays the giant kit with some virtuosity, it wont matter the size of the kit.

Drummer_Boy

09-04-2005, 09:06 AM

Well, I love my 5-piece so far. Can't go wrong with it. But, I wouldn't mind having an extra tom or two, another snare, so I can have both snare sounds at once, without turning it off all the time. Most of all though..I'd like more cymbals. I only have my ride/crash and hi-hats, which is fine. I'd just like to get some more sounds, although I have found I can get a lot of different sounds with my cymbals. Although, I listen to Alice In Chains so much, and Sean Kinney does a lot of different things with his hi-hats, and makes some real cool patterns, and I think he only has a 5 or 4-piece. I dunno'. Small Kit..with lot's of cymbals for me I guess, if I could have it like that.

aarbo

09-04-2005, 11:46 AM

In one of my bands we play much of improvised, progressive an free-jazzy things. But there I have only a little Jazz kit with single bass, two toms, snare and three cymbals. I could really need more there!

On the other hand in that band where we play jazz standards with a vocalist I have my big kit with four toms, double bass two snares and many cymbals and I don't need that much.

So if a kit size makes sense mainly depends on the musical situation. If the drummer can't play the problem is an other one...

oliverlawford

09-04-2005, 01:07 PM

Its much more skillful in my opinion to exploit as much as you can as many sounds from limited equipment ie a small kit, rather than a massive kit with lots of different sounds available from lots of different pieces of equipment.

Explore new sounds from the gear you already have rather than buying loads of money on new cymbals and drums...

Oli

Womble

09-04-2005, 03:54 PM

If I turn up to a gig at which other bands and drummers will be playing, and I see a guy with a huge kit, my immediate reaction is one of relief, being confident that that drummer will probably be a showman with little taste who needs to hide behind a mass of drums to a) fool the audience into thinking he must be good, and b) hide his own insecurities. If I see a drummer with a tiny, crappy, beaten up old kit, then I'll be scared!! There may be no rhyme or reason to it, but I'll assume the drummer with the small kit must be way more confident about what he can pull out of it.

This is not to say big kits don't have their place in the right hands. I saw a Marco Minnemann clinic a while back and I couldn't dream of accusing him of having a big kit to hide his weaknesses, because (obviously) he's got monster chops. He also, at that particular clinic anyway, utilised everything in his set-up for a specific purpose, and created an amazing sonic palette with it.

Womble

untilitsleeps

09-07-2005, 06:33 AM

I like medium sized kits more on the smaller side like i have 12 ,13,14,and 16 inch toms 22 bass and 13inch snare thats all i use for the drums and for cymbals a have 14 inch hi hats 16 inch crash 18 crash 20 inch ride 18 inch china 8 inch splash and a 21 inch ride(it was free) and double bass thats all i use anymore id probly be lost

RudimentalDrummer

09-07-2005, 08:27 AM

I prefer to own an average size kit at home for my personal use & practice .... I think for now ... my 9pcs kit will do just fine. But for Cymbals ...I'm afraid I might end up having more into my collection ... cause different types of Cymbals are required for playing different kinds of Music...eg. Jazz, Fusion, Rock etc. There is no one universal Cymbal for all types of Music.

Anyway it's so funny ... I have a crazy thought all these while .... That I might buy a Small Traveller Drum Kit (those that can be easily carried around - like the Pearl RhythmTraveller 5pcs Drum Kit but it's make in Taiwan ... very cheap only at S$650.00 app. USD393 only )...It looks so cute, small but not mean't for children .... felt like Basking at Orchard Road in Singapore ...not for $$$$$$ really but just for the fun of it ... .... hehehehe ... but I'm scare, wonder what my friends & subordinate will say behind me when they see me doing that. Well it's feasible !

http://www.myimghost.com/getimg/pearlrhythmtraveller.jpg (http://www.myimghost.com)

'67Rogers

09-07-2005, 04:15 PM

Womble - "If I turn up to a gig at which other bands and drummers will be playing, and I see a guy with a huge kit, my immediate reaction is one of relief, being confident that that drummer will probably be a showman with little taste who needs to hide behind a mass of drums to a) fool the audience into thinking he must be good, and b) hide his own insecurities. If I see a drummer with a tiny, crappy, beaten up old kit, then I'll be scared!! There may be no rhyme or reason to it, but I'll assume the drummer with the small kit must be way more confident about what he can pull out of it."

Rudimentaldrummer - " Anyway it's so funny ... I have a crazy thought all these while .... That I might buy a Small Traveller Drum Kit (those that can be easily carried around - like the Pearl RhythmTraveller 5pcs Drum Kit but it's make in Taiwan ... very cheap only at S$650.00 app. USD393 only )...It looks so cute, small but not mean't for children .... felt like Basking at Orchard Road in Singapore ...not for $$$$$$ really but just for the fun of it ... .... hehehehe ... but I'm scare, wonder what my friends & subordinate will say behind me when they see me doing that. Well it's feasible !"

As players we must separate our egos from our playing ability. As people we must separate ourselves from the good opinion of others. If someone plays a four piece like Bonham or a twelve piece like a beginner, it does not change anything about you or your ability.

Thinshells

09-07-2005, 04:39 PM

I notice the heavy bias leans on small kits. And there is a lot of anti-big kit rhetoric, and rationalization. (equating larger kits to ego's, penis envy, and so on) What about guys that just like a large kit? They have no specific reason to compensate for anything...they just like lots of drums and cymbals. It's no crime---really! And it obviously intimidates some folks to the point that they try to downplay a big kit's intrinsic or exigent value(s). Some folks act as if big-kit drummers have to justify themselves. They don't.

I go back to square one on this: it's not the kit it's the drummer. And there is NO right or wrong kit.

FWIW: There is no quantification or correlation between kit size and drummer ability at all. Either the drummer is good on what he/she has, or isn't. I have seen plenty of drummers on small, old, beat up kits that did nothing special. Small kits are no more of a qualifier of a great drummer than a large kit.

RudimentalDrummer

09-08-2005, 10:56 AM

As players we must separate our egos from our playing ability. As people we must separate ourselves from the good opinion of others. If someone plays a four piece like Bonham or a twelve piece like a beginner, it does not change anything about you or your ability.

Yes you're right my bro .... it's really not a matter of how big or small the kit is ... if I'm going to do basking for fun sake - my silly idea. It's that "Basking" is still relatively a very new concept here in my country .... many people thinks ... basking is something similar to begging (like beggers) ... hehehe ... so you understand me now? Cheers ! But I really love to do that on one of a Sunday ...it's sharing my passion with the public...and of course assembling & dissembling a smaller kit is much easier for my purpose .... I'm not bias ... As long as it's DRUMS & PERCUSSION INSTRUMENTS, big or small kits - I love them ! If only I had the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ... I will have a grand collection of all the Models & Brands.

DrumProgressive

01-23-2006, 10:06 PM

It's very othen been said that small kits force you to be more creative. As always there are persons that confirm this and persons who deny this but i think this makes sence: Small as well as big kits lead to creativity. If you play a small kit, u need the creativity to avoid repeating the same fill, chop, whatever over and over again. But big kits force you to just as much creativity, only in another way. When you play a big kit u better use all your toms/cymbals else they're just a waste of money. So i guess the trick of big kits is to get all your sounds into your grooves and not just use them for making fills nicer.

Do you think it's true that there has been an misunderstanding or not ?

(PS: don't start the whole discussion about big vs small kits again. Just tell me wheter my statement makes sence or not and do you think there has been an understanding or not ? )

Thanks for your time, all comment are welcome.

NUTHA JASON

01-23-2006, 10:29 PM

i agree with you. the argument is really invalid because creativity thrives both underconditions of restraint and excess...think of painters. a truly good painter can paint exquisite paintings with only blue whit and black paint but also be just as creative with thousands of colours.

j

ps: i will eventually merge this with the big kits small kits debate but lets see how this baby corners.

aahznightsky

01-23-2006, 10:34 PM

Finally someone solved the puzzle!

now that we all that have arguement cleared up ... good work

and the painting analogy is perfect!

finnhiggins

01-23-2006, 10:56 PM

I'm not sure the painting analogy entirely addresses it - yes, a master painter can work in both mediums. But for the sake of developing your creativity, surely working with just two colours makes you appreciate the value available in each colour and lets you work on form, concept and control rather than just trying to make use of every colour available?

Once you've developed that control over what you want to create then it doesn't matter how many colours you have in your pallette, but I would suggest that it's still better for development to have constraints before you have excess available to you.

Who's the better songwriter, the guy who has to write a fifteen minute epic using every style and time signature to get his point across, or the guy who can do it with an acoustic guitar, a few simple chords and a voice? I'd argue the latter, not that there's no merit in the former. But in my experience I've seen so many local bands trying to write twenty minute progressive opuses when they actually can't write simple songs well. The result is twenty minute progressive opuses with no conception of taste, shape or musical form. Having good control of the smaller, more constrained form develops better taste and appreciation of what is available when the constraints are removed, IMHO.

Raymond Bloom

01-23-2006, 11:33 PM

finnhiggins

01-23-2006, 11:43 PM

There are 3 basic colors - red, blue and yellow + black and white. You can get every other colors from these basic colors.

get the picture?

I've got a picture of you, with a point flying past you at great speed :)

The colour issue is a non-issue. My point was that constraints enhance the development of creativity in that they focus control in specific areas. If you have no constraints you have less motivation to gain fine control in any one area.

Constraining yourself to limited numbers of colours removes your attention from having to deal with which particular colour you're using and instead focuses it on form, nuance and articulation.

It's quite a simple principle: You have a finite amount of attention, let's call this a. You have a finite number of things to dedicate that attention to. Let's call that b. Therefore, assuming equal distribution of attention amoung things you work on, the amount of attention paid to each thing is a over b - let's call this c. It obviously doesn't have to be equal, but this is just making a point.

My suggestion is that the more "c" you have - time dedicated to individual things - the more that particular thing will develop. Therefore there are a few ways to improve your control in each field.

1) Increase a, your finite amount of attention you dedicate to the whole.
2) Decrease b, your finite number of things that draw on your attention.

This all seems extremely obvious. If you dedicate time to something you get better at it. Limiting your range of colours will give you a better understanding of all the aspects of your art which don't rely on large numbers of colours - like form, control, nuance and so forth. Once you understand these things better you can introduce a wider range of colours and work on your control and nuance of those colours.

But without the foundation it's arguable that you will develop at a slower rate as an expressive artist, because expression exists independent of your colour palette. If you're a good expressive artist then more colours are just that - more colours. If you're not a good expressive artist then more colours are just a distraction from the things that actually matter.

OceanDirt

01-23-2006, 11:43 PM

I'm not sure the painting analogy entirely addresses it - yes, a master painter can work in both mediums. But for the sake of developing your creativity, surely working with just two colours makes you appreciate the value available in each colour and lets you work on form, concept and control rather than just trying to make use of every colour available?

...Having good control of the smaller, more constrained form develops better taste and appreciation of what is available when the constraints are removed, IMHO.

yes - this is the fundamental purpose of limiting yourself. a true artists understands and appreciates every aspect of his craft. for us, that means understanding the potential of every instrument we use, and mastering the techniques needed to draw out that potential.

there is a reason that we study snare drum alone. i would recommend not just playing on a smaller kit, but taking each different fundamental piece of the drum set (snare, bass, ride, hi hat) and seperating it from your kit. go in a corner and just practice ride patterns, or hi hat technique with the foot and hands. learn to draw all the different sounds out of every drum and cymbal you own.

then, once you've learned how to be artistic on a small scale, you can translate that onto a larger scale.

it's the same reason we have to practice technical exercises slowly - to make sure that every part is right.

Raymond Bloom

01-24-2006, 12:06 AM

I've got a picture of you, with a point flying past you at great speed :)

O yeah, thats surprising how much can you do with a good fingercontroll :D

RMS

01-24-2006, 12:19 AM

I know that going from a six-piece with about 10 cymbals, to a four-piece with 4 cymbals, my playing has definitely improved. And so has my creativity. I now pay more attention to the multiple sounds that can come from one cymbal or drum. But this is just a temporary setup, I plan on adding pieces back, one at a time. I miss the additional ways to express myself, but I recognized my tendency to overplay, so this is a corrective measure.

The problem is that I started out with too many drums.

Stu_Strib

01-24-2006, 10:58 AM

Smaller kit requires you to use stickings and rudiments in more creative ways. If you have a million things to hit, you just hit them. If you have 2 cymbals and a floor tom, you are required to think outside the box to get more sounds out of less stuff.

I personally would just like a bigger kit, but I can appreciate what the less is more crowd is doing (as long as they TRULY are good, and aren't just using less is more as an excuse).

finnhiggins

01-24-2006, 11:37 AM

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the small-vs-big debate: Feeling and expressive potential of the two approaches.

I recently wrote a drum part for a performance on a 4pc with two cymbals - a ride and a china. As such, I came up with a whole bunch of ways of playing those drums and cymbals in that part - one section includes the ride played with the tip, the shoulder of the stick and crashed on the edge just as part of the shape of a single two-bar looped groove.

Now I'm revisiting playing the same piece on a 5pc with seven cymbals. If I want I can break those multiple ride sounds onto a ride and two crashes. Do I want to? I've tried both ways, and they sound very different.

The one-cymbal approach has a consistent atmosphere, and changes in dynamic feel smoother and more organic as the wash of the cymbal floats up and down with the grove - it feels more "round" and IMHO a bit more expressive. I reckon that what people tend to perceive as expression in music is more about nuance and variation than it is about big changes - so music like Naked City or Mr Bungle which flits between styles tends to feel maybe more exciting and seat-of-your-pants cool, but less expressive than a piece which retains a constant feel and mood and develops emotional peaks inside that.

The multi-cymbal approach feels a bit more soulless, but has more energy and feels like it has more "space" - it's easier to understand the part, it's more obvious to the listener, and it's easier to hear it over a band. So it makes a lot more sense if your band is loud and you need to project, while it might sound dumb and excessive in a more nuanced context.

Ultimately I think the two approaches do have different uses. The thing is, I don't know if I would have taken the time to develop the control required to actually carry off the one-cymbal approach to that part if I'd had the two crashes sitting there as well, because it took a fair bit of practice. If I hadn't known what the results would be like, would I have bothered working so hard to get three sounds when I had three cymbals sitting right there? I'm not sure.

As it stands I think I'll use both approaches in the song in different repetitions of the same section, but I do stand by the idea that the constraints make you a lot more creative and cause you to have to think up stuff that just otherwise wouldn't occur.

Stu_Strib

01-24-2006, 11:46 AM

Even the guys with elaborate cymbal setups generally play on 2 or three of them most of the time anyway. Look at Weckl. Most of his cymbals are just for effects or a different color. Most of the time he's on the evolution ride, the hats and that crash/ride right in front of him.

DrumProgressive

01-24-2006, 06:29 PM

Thanks for those who agree me.
But i feel so stupid at the moment. As i only am a 17 years old dutch guy, i really don't understand most of finhiggins's replies. I try too but my english level is still too low, hopefully one day i will look back at this thread and understand it =D.

Therefore i don't indicate you guys should stop debating, seems like serious arguments are involved. Once again i'm amazed in which way Nutha Jason managed to put a resemblance to painting in this one.

Stu_Strib

01-24-2006, 06:33 PM

Ti really don't understand most of finhiggins's replies.

Haha, neither do some of us Americans!

Dano3000

01-24-2006, 06:58 PM

As i only am a 17 years old dutch guy, i really don't understand most of finhiggins's replies. I try too but my english level is still too low, hopefully one day i will look back at this thread and understand it =D.

I don't believe age or mastery of the english language have anything to do with it. I'm 41 and have used the english language for the majority of those years and still have problems understanding most of finhiggins's posts.

:)

Dano3000

01-24-2006, 07:05 PM

However you will notice that he used a large amount of words to voice his opinion as opposed to just saying "Yes" or "No"

finnhiggins

01-24-2006, 07:35 PM

However you will notice that he used a large amount of words to voice his opinion as opposed to just saying "Yes" or "No"

Or indeed "lolz man yuh" :)

Isaacs

01-25-2006, 06:36 AM

I've played on both large and small kits. The large one (and yeah, I will have to take a trip back to the garage band days again) was so stupid looking that I cringe every time I pull out the picture of it. In the hands of a master drummer it might (key on the word, might) have been OK but the damn thing had toms reaching around the back of it. I had no business at all throwing that thing together but we are talking about the late 80's early 90's and some of the bands I loved just seemed to use kits that were a mile or three long.

The worst part of it was that with so many toms it was nearly impossible to use them all in a creative fill. I say this because at the time my mentality was, "use it all or it's a waste." That was dopey on my part but hey, I got over it.

Today I am huge fan of much smaller kits. A five piece is perfect for me but I must admit I still have a weakness for cymbals. But, even that is kept in check. I mean, I am not using fifteen cymbals on a five piece kit.

I guess it really just depends on the drummer, the purpose of the kit, and the "show" aspect of it. I have no opinion regarding what other drummers should consider their perfect kit, but I do get irritated when drummers who play on large kits think that those of us on smaller kits are simply not able to play on a massive set. Not able and not willing are two different things.

At the end of the day, to each his or her own. But this post is a good one.

Isaacs

NUTHA JASON

01-25-2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano3000
However you will notice that he used a large amount of words to voice his opinion as opposed to just saying "Yes" or "No"

Or indeed "lolz man yuh" :)

hahahaha. finn slays me often. hey man, we often don't agree about stuff but appreciate someone who can put a point across and takes the time to tease out their opinions.

i still believe that neither kit is superior or harder in any way because at the end of the day its a matter of taste and delivery. i had an art teacher that forced us to draw apair of army boots in charcoal with our left hands...it took a few goes and some experimentation but the results were surprising as it made us come up with solutions to limitations and also made us use our weakness and mistakes by hiding them in repeated textures from there on.

j

burnthehero

01-25-2006, 09:42 AM

I'm just going to go ahead and clear this whole thing up for everybody once and for all...

KIT SIZE DOES NOT MATTER

Stu_Strib

01-25-2006, 11:37 AM

I've played on both large and small kits. The large one (and yeah, I will have to take a trip back to the garage band days again) was so stupid looking that I cringe every time I pull out the picture of it.

Isaacs

HAHA! Who doesn't look back and say "what the hell..."? Actually, I played on a 5 piece Tama during my youth (school's not mine, since I never owned my own until i was 32). When I was older I bought a 5 piece Session kit, then added 2 toms, and about 7 cymbals.

There is a big difference between a big huge 14-year old's 7-piece dream kit, and a 32 year-old's 7 piece kit. Confused? Picture Steve Smith's kit in your head...classy, tight, well laid out, right? That's a pretty big kit, but it is not the power toms angled at ridiculous angles and the cymbals hanging upside down from the rack and all that silliness.

NUTHA JASON

01-31-2006, 08:24 AM

i think dom famularo agrees with me....heck he even used the same analogy as me, weeks after i posted it....

DW: Do you have any thoughts on the Big Kit vs. Small Kit debate?
DF: Picasso would use a black pencil to create great art. Da Vinci used a variety of colors and mixed his paint with lead to create the most vivid colors possible, and he used all of the colors that he had available to him. Who was the better artist? I can’t think small kit/large kit. Just because someone has a larger vocabulary, they have more to say? They’re a deeper person, or they have better emotions? There are levels of expression for every size of kit. If someone reaches me deeply on a small kit, and those are the tools that they need, great. My object is just to learn all of the tools. If you choose to have all of the tools, and then you choose to build a little birdhouse, and the next guy chooses to build a skyscraper, sometimes I find great beauty and sanctity in the birdhouse. There’s nothing wrong with the carpenter who built that, as opposed to the architect who built the skyscraper. If I start to analyze the size of the building and the worth that it offers, then I think I’m losing what art is about. To me, that’s spending too much time on a small part and not looking at the big picture. I was at the Louvre when I went to see the Mona Lisa, and as I saw this 500-year-old work of art I was brought to tears. I felt that Leonardo da Vinci was speaking to me from his grave. And as I stood there in tears, another gentleman walked up beside me and said, “My gosh, look at all of the cracks in this picture. Why don’t they fix it?” In life this happens, and in all art this happens. Do you see the great depths of beauty, or do you focus on the cracks? I’m too busy enjoying the beauty. That to me is where we must begin.

j

T.Underhill

01-31-2006, 09:16 AM

Big kits...small kits, whatever. I'll play on a 4 piece any day of the week, in fact the next one I get will be a 4 piece. Right now I like my kits big!! I enjoy having more options for sounds, that's all. Well, and they look great too! Two 9 pieces, a 10 pc, and an 11 pc. Click the sig. linky.

Stu_Strib

01-31-2006, 09:38 AM

Big kits...small kits, whatever. I'll play on a 4 piece any day of the week,

Yeah, I'd rather play on a Yamaha Maple Custom Absolute 4 piece than a Pearl Export 9 piece anyday!

adorno

01-31-2006, 11:16 AM

I think we all pretty much agree that size doesn't matter (though I enjoyed Womble's post greatly!), but what I will say is that the look of the kit is equally as important as sound. I know this sounds incredibly daft and superficial but it's true! Popular music is as much as about image and style as it is about the music. So for instance my 4 piece vintage kit, with just hats, ride and crash would look pretty lame in a thrash metal set up. Similarly Lars Ulrich's double-bass drum set-up will look ridiculous in my ramshackle lo-fi indie band. I guess all I'm doing is adding to the obvious point which has been mentioned already, that different drum set-ups suit different genres of music. My only twist is that this is as much about the look of the set-up (i.e. aesthetics) as it is about the sound you get from your drums.

Jeff Almeyda

01-31-2006, 11:48 AM

Speaking of look, can you imagine my surprsie when I put my 7 pc DW on a pearl curved rack and everyone commented on my "new" "huge" and "pretentious" kit. It's the same kit I've had for 8 years!! Who knew that drum hardware could even BE pretentious?

I started out on a big kit and it was a mistake. Too many toms, cymbals, woodblocks, roto-toms etc. (Too much Neil Peart actually) How many hours did I waste with that crap instead of learning how to keep time?

I believe that begnners should get a 4 or 5 pc and get that going for a few years. Too many choices can overwhelm a less advanced player.

After that it's a totally individual choice. Here in NYC most of the local club gigs have a house kit that's never bigger than a 4 pc and I play our set on those as readily as I do on my own kit. I mean most of the time we're on bass snare and hh/ride anyway no?

Gear does not make the drummer.

But it IS fun!

DogBreath

01-31-2006, 07:22 PM

Dom Famularo is now quoting our Moderator? My friends, I believe we have arrived.

hold-the-groove

02-02-2006, 12:25 PM

aesthetically, i think small kits are better. I believe lots of tomtoms looks atrocious....

lots of cymbals is a different story...

two attched pics display large setups i hate the look of

Ramsh

02-02-2006, 03:28 PM

I like my big kit because it not very interesting to play straight fills on the toms, I like to use this small effect cymbals too. I play metal and often there're melodies over 3 or 4 bars, it's nice to have also 3 or 4 crashes to make higher and lower accent more accurate with the proper crash or whatever kind of percussion.
Interesting, but I like more metal drummers with a huge set instead of 3 cymbals and 4 piece shell set because it fits better for me in this genre. Don't know how it's in other genres, but I think it's the same in rock.

jpekarek

02-02-2006, 07:01 PM

It's all abut how you want you kit to look. I love big kits, they look great. But I also love watching someone flip out on a 4 piece with 2 cymbals and make it sound good.

Someone earlier in this post said that a single bass and some hand work can duplicate any double bass work. I very sharply disagree with that statement. I have seen some pretty good drummers do that exact thing and pull if off fairly well, but one of hier hands is tied up. Someone that knows how to use a double bass set can to many more things.

Mcbrain

02-02-2006, 07:46 PM

I agree it's primarily about looks. I personally like the bigger kits to a point. I mean my dream kit is either Nicko's gray Sonor from the Somewhere in Time tour or Neil's current DW set up, Much bigger then that really seems silly to me. Now i absolutely love watching Bonham on his Vistalites and aawww with respect with what he could accomplish on a kit of that size as well. So to each there own i guess, It's the drummer that provides the magic not the kit !!!!!!

candlemass

02-03-2006, 03:03 PM

T.Underhill

02-03-2006, 03:14 PM

The same goes to Eric Carr and most hard rock drummers around (most of them have now gotten a grip /or they're poorer now and are using smaller kits).

Eric Carr used the entire set and could do a really good double bass roll. Peter on the other hand was mostly show and less proficient with the larger kit. Don't bash Carr.

jpekarek

02-03-2006, 05:14 PM

Well, a big kit looks indeed nicer, but it just touches me if the drummer REALLY uses all of them, else it's just showing off.

I've always pissed about Alex Van Halen for example, putting so many toms and barely making a tom roll. The same goes to Eric Carr and most hard rock drummers around (most of them have now gotten a grip /or they're poorer now and are using smaller kits).

The only... ONLY exception is Vinny Appice because having a bass drum over your head looks cool anyway :)

Edu

No way. Eric Carr was an amazing drummer. I saw him twice and both times he blew me away with his solos. No he didn't just go all over his toms all the time, there is a lot to be said for tastfull drumming. But Eric Carr was really a talented drummer. I can't understand where your comming from with AVH, he is a smoking drummer to. Seen him many times.

My wife says the same thing, "Why do you need so many drums?, you can't play them all at once". My reply is simple, "Yes but I do need them once in a while".

BTW, don't think for a moment that the Van Halens are poor!

candlemass

02-03-2006, 05:28 PM

No way. Eric Carr was an amazing drummer. I saw him twice and both times he blew me away with his solos. No he didn't just go all over his toms all the time, there is a lot to be said for tastfull drumming. But Eric Carr was really a talented drummer. I can't understand where your comming from with AVH, he is a smoking drummer to. Seen him many times.

I don't agree. The toms aren't even tuned in a way that you can HEAR any difference, they could be done in a 4-piece drums and i wouldn't notice. I haven't seen him live (as I wasn't old enough ;p), but the videos I saw him playing, he was a decent player and it's all, from what I saw with Kiss. The solo wasn't big deal either, it was just those exercises with double bass that the audience will dig anyway. Van Halen is even worse, he plays nothing but a 4/4 rhythm, and throw in a roll once in a while, to me that's just waste of equipment. I'm much more into Neil Peart, Keith Moon and others which REALLY use their kits to the maximum.

BTW, don't think for a moment that the Van Halens are poor!

Well, not the case indeed for VH but other hard rock groups such as Warrant and Poison stick with their 4-piece drums and that's all nowadays.

jpekarek

02-03-2006, 05:38 PM

I don't agree. The toms aren't even tuned in a way that you can HEAR any difference, they could be done in a 4-piece drums and i wouldn't notice. I haven't seen him live (as I wasn't old enough ;p), but the videos I saw him playing, he was a decent player and it's all, from what I saw with Kiss. The solo wasn't big deal either, it was just those exercises with double bass that the audience will dig anyway. Van Halen is even worse, he plays nothing but a 4/4 rhythm, and throw in a roll once in a while, to me that's just waste of equipment. I'm much more into Neil Peart, Keith Moon and others which REALLY use their kits to the maximum.

Well, not the case indeed for VH but other hard rock groups such as Warrant and Poison stick with their 4-piece drums and that's all nowadays.

Your right about some of the other groups, blew all thier money trying to live like rock stars after it dried up! The MC Hammer syndrome.

I don't think you can really compare Eric Carr and AVH to drummers like Peart, they are completely different in thier styles and sounds, apples and oranges. Rush's music is about progressiveness and technical skills. Van Halen and Kiss were party rock and that's what they did very well. Different styles but each very talented in thier own style.

Coatz

02-03-2006, 07:34 PM

Drumminsean

02-03-2006, 07:50 PM

I am a firm believer that the size of your kit is determined by your playing. If you're playing on a 5 piece and you keep getting to the end of your rolls and you still feel that there is something else to be said, then you might want more toms. If you can say everything that you need to say on a 4 piece, GREAT! Just be careful not to let the size of a kit impress you. I've seen drummers that have blown me away with just Bass, Snare, and Hats. Check out Max Roach's video clip on this site. He is sick with just hats.
HI-HATS!!!!

Sean J.

luke-e-p

02-03-2006, 09:05 PM

I use 15,16,18 " crashes, 10" crash, 20" ride and 17" China, (13 " hats). That is as big as my kit will ever be cymbal wise. drums i use 10,12,15, 13 snare, 20 bass, i have considered adding an 8" tom, i fell in love with my friends one, dw have nice small tom sounds :O. Anyway basically i think that provided you use everything on your kit, and its not wasted AND it adds the the quality of your playing, then its fine to have a large setup. I also have percussion on my drum kit, being in a funk/jazz band, so i get critisised for using a too big drumkit, but the fact of the matter is - i use everything more than 10 times in my set that we are playing at the moment and it adds to mine and the bands overall sound - so sure, big kits are good if your willing to put the effort in and use them.

I think what sucks is getting a cheap kit and adding drums to it, complete waste of money... i would take a £1000 5 piece kit any day over a £1000 20 piece beginner kit...

candlemass

02-06-2006, 05:10 PM

Rush's music is about progressiveness and technical skills. Van Halen and Kiss were party rock and that's what they did very well. Different styles but each very talented in thier own style.

Aha!! So if it takes technical skills to play a giant kit, why use gint kits in party rock?? Get my question now?

Edu

jpekarek

02-06-2006, 05:35 PM

Aha!! So if it takes technical skills to play a giant kit, why use gint kits in party rock?? Get my question now?

Edu

I'm not really sure what you question was. There is really no debate at all here. There are a lot of drummers who have both a big kit and skills. Some people like big sets, others don't. Some people have the skills to play a huge set, others don't. Myself? I like a big set because it's looks cool and it's fun. That doesn't mean that I am any less of a drummer. But I don't use it to impress other people, it's just for me. I don't even take it anywhere when I play, I have another smaller 5 piece TAMA set I use for gigs. My big set is very special and I don't like to move it.

Big drum kits look killer on stage and that's what a lot of bands like, a monster center piece for the stage. Some bands are not about that and that's fine. But it doesn't mean that just because you like big sets that you're not a very good drummer.

dougdrum3684

02-09-2006, 02:41 AM

I think I am a rare breed where as a teenage drummer, I have a 7 piece Yamaha Recording Custom stacked up in a corner in favor of a 4 piece Sonor... It's not that I don't play the RC, or that I don't enjoy its sound - it's that as a young, practicing drummer, I need to be able to adapt my playing to every style I can, and focus on every detail that that I can hear, and this is easier with 2 toms rather than 5. Granted, the bigger kit will win out when I go anywhere to play publicly, but after practicing everything on 4 drums, it's an easy switch to 7.

The reason I don't practice on my big kit is because someday I will find myself in an important position where I will have a minimal kit in which to perform on, and I don't want to have to stretch ideas that were developed in the context of 5 toms, and compress it down to 2.

Bottom line, it's easier to adapt from a small kit to a large one, should you ever find yourself in such a situation where it is required.

aahznightsky

02-09-2006, 02:56 AM

I recently wrote a drum part for a performance on a 4pc with two cymbals - a ride and a china. As such, I came up with a whole bunch of ways of playing those drums and cymbals in that part - one section includes the ride played with the tip, the shoulder of the stick and crashed on the edge just as part of the shape of a single two-bar looped groove.

The one-cymbal approach has a consistent atmosphere, and changes in dynamic feel smoother and more organic as the wash of the cymbal floats up and down with the grove - it feels more "round" and IMHO a bit more expressive. I reckon that what people tend to perceive as expression in music is more about nuance and variation than it is about big changes - so music like Naked City or Mr Bungle which flits between styles tends to feel maybe more exciting and seat-of-your-pants cool, but less expressive than a piece which retains a constant feel and mood and develops emotional peaks inside that.

The multi-cymbal approach feels a bit more soulless, but has more energy and feels like it has more "space" - it's easier to understand the part, it's more obvious to the listener, and it's easier to hear it over a band. So it makes a lot more sense if your band is loud and you need to project, while it might sound dumb and excessive in a more nuanced context.

i do have to agree with you that with fewer cymbal choices you have more chance for expresiveness and theme. But ever thought of the drummers that have their whole cymbal setup based on a theme??? I mean jeez, i have four crashes, but all of them are the same model in different sizes just for pitches! Its also the same for toms, you can play the same figure (theme) on different ranges of toms and all of sudden its really cool. Sure there are setups that don't promote coheesiveness (cough portnoy), but other big sets work so well in creating an atmostsphere and expression. Besides my own I would look at Dave Weckl's, and all of DeJonette's cymbals as examples. The point is to make the entire set sound like one instrument. No matter the size.

jpekarek

02-09-2006, 05:08 AM

The point is to make the entire set sound like one instrument. No matter the size.

Mr. Ahh.....I am impressed with your insight. You have a unique vision about our insturment of choice.

drummerern

02-20-2006, 07:49 AM

the most i ever need when we play is a four peicewith a couple crashes, a ride, and hi-hats....but it sure is fun to play on my big kit at home by myself. i can be more creative. thats why i have two kits. i don't NEED much to play with my band, but it sure is nice to have te option of hitting something different.

harryconway

02-20-2006, 08:24 AM

1 rack and 2 floors (5 piece). Makes me happy.

osamasgoat5467

03-16-2006, 05:17 AM

It dosn't really matter. A lot of good drummers play giant sets and a lot of good drummers play 4 piece sets. I personaly think that a 9 piece set would be awesome. 2 bass drums, 4 rack toms, 2 floor toms, and a snare.

drumz4eva

03-16-2006, 05:49 AM

So I've been drumming for about 5 years now and my kit's 3 toms, snare, single bass, hi hat and 3 cymbals. I always get into arguments with my friends for criticizing other drummers for having such big kits. Sure it's kind of justifiable if the drummer uses it all, but I think the core of drumming is being able to pick out what sounds good with the music, not technique. Personally I don't think it's ever necessary for a drummer to use more than a double bass, 3 or 4 toms, snare, hi hat, and 3 or 4 cymbals, what do you think?
no offence but i TOTALY DISSAGREE

i love big drumsets, its just kinda my thing,

so far i dont have that big of a drumset, but what i do have its

4 toms, snair, double base, 5 cymbals including hi hat, and thats what i have so far

MUAHAH but dont worry there is ALOT more to come

if u want more specifications on it....gimme a bit my digital camera is broken, but once i fix it ill take a pic of it, with the sizes and typs

later

mandoihatewinter_26

03-26-2006, 04:00 PM

Last night I returned home amazed by two things, that I had just seen an incredible drummer, and the fact that he did it all on a floor tom, snare, and bass drum (plus cymbals). Now that I think about, most (if not all) the drummers that play seem to play the most intresting and rhythmic fills, solos, and beats, play four or maybe 5 piece sets. I was wondering what any of your thoughts are on this subject, do you notice it too? Do you know of any "big set" players who are also creative? If anyone says Mike Portnoy, I just...I just cannot be held responsible for what I might say.

Robin

03-26-2006, 04:02 PM

While Mike is one of my favorite drummers, he has NO creativity at all when doing solos. He's still a badass drummer!

lilblakdak

03-26-2006, 04:43 PM

Nicko McBrain, Scott Rockenfield, Simon Phillips, NeilPeart Alan White just to name a few. I used to be a big kit guy but the music Im playing now, a big double bass 9pc would look silly on stage.

shuffle

03-26-2006, 04:48 PM

I don't personnaly see a connection between one's creativity and the size of the set.

While a larger set obviously means more voices, the rythmic permutations you can create on a 4-piece set are infinite anyways.

Creative drummers with large sets ? Stewart Copeland (whose set grew fairly large at periods), Terry Bozzio (that's large), Dave Weckl, Thomas Lang, Phil Collins...

Creatve drummers with small sets ? Buddy Rich (possibly the biggest small set advocate), Manu Katche, Rodney Holmes, David Garibaldi, Bernard Purdie, ..

T-1000

03-26-2006, 05:24 PM

Some drummers with smaller kits are like those obnoxious non-smokers who like to criticise smokers just to feel more smug about themselves. I play an extremely Travis Barker-esque kit - (4 piece, all cymbals and drums ruler flat and very low - except the snare, which is tilted away from me) - but I what right do I have to criticise others with bigger kits? Of course you still have to be creative when playing it - you can still get more textures/tones out of each drum if you want; you've just got more drums/cymbals to get those textures/tones out of...

(just for the record, I don't smoke...damn do I feel smug right now...)

MOONCHILD

04-03-2006, 08:26 PM

i played either on big and on small kit im not sure what is small kit(number of elements or a size) bigger kit looks nicer but small i easier to play and kinda nicer to play.the feeling is better with the smaller kit,when every element is close to you,you feel like a swalow when drumming.Anyway i cannot feast my eyes with watching Nicko Mcbrain!!!!Hes an animal so beautiful can anyone imagine him with kinda small kit wouldnt he look ridiculus?

Crazy

04-06-2006, 04:22 PM

I love what i'd call medium kits, like 5/6 toms, i enjoy playing them, i personally only use 2 as i find i can get some really jazzy fills out of them, but i think some kits are really excessive, take mike portnoy's for example...

http://www.themusicedge.com/moxie/moxiepix/b2_805.gif

I guess the guy is just taking advantage of being sponsored, any of us will just add accessories to our drums if they were also for free héhé

Hackanut

04-06-2006, 04:32 PM

I cant stand Portnoy's set, it makes no sense at all to have a set in which you cant play the whole thing without haveing to get up. but as for the big kit small kit thing, 4 pieces are the set for me. I like having to be creative and not having ever sound color in the world right there infront of me.

Corey

JPDrum

04-08-2006, 07:28 AM

Do you know of any "big set" players who are also creative? If anyone says Mike Portnoy, I just...I just cannot be held responsible for what I might say.

The first two that come to mind are Carl Palmer and Simon Phillips. Both are amazing on their large kits. I like Mike Portnoy but his kit is just ridiculous.

J P Lapp

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39169#post39169

JPDrum

04-08-2006, 07:34 AM

Personally I love big kits providing the drummer can play them and be creative with them. Today the hip thing is to have a really small kit and it seems like everyones kit is a four piece DW. It is getting kind of boring out here in drummer land.

J P Lapp

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39169#post39169

JPDrum

04-08-2006, 07:53 AM

One last thing about drummers using big kits. My wife and attended a set of Toto concerts last year. While sitting in the lobby bar we were discussing the concerts after the second show. Her comment about Simon Phillips and his drum solos blew me away. She said, "On both nights the solos were totally different and they were musical! He would play something that had a melody to it, then go from there."

This is from a non musician. I couldn't have said it any better.

Cheers

J P Lapp

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39169#post39169

somedrummer

04-13-2006, 05:58 AM

My layout is very comfortable for me and the drums are logically placed. It's basically a four piece set surrounded by more pieces.

That's exactly how my kit is laid out. If you look at a pid, you can see all the elements of a 4 piece kit in the same area, but there are many more elements surrounding them, thus expanding my range of possibilities:

jollymosher

04-13-2006, 07:37 AM

if you keep ur kit under 15 peices no one is gonna think ur packin a small tool. the reason some kits get big, 2 bass drums so the sound is loud and pure for double bass stuff, a snare, 2-3 toms for fills and such, and 2 floor toms for fills also. then, if u wanna get anouther snare for either higher or lower tuning, and then some people do latin stuff so they need some timbales (2)
that allread is an 11 peice... you see?

thunder_sticks

04-13-2006, 09:09 AM

Big kit/small kit, we are still just hitting stuff because it makes noise.....and we like to hit stuff.... :P :)

IronCobraPTW

04-13-2006, 04:41 PM

yo finnhiggens and fusssion..
i agree with dogbreath 100% on this
its plain and obvious too
if you have a 4 piece set you can get 4 sounds thats simple and i know your gonna say what about technique...well is it not possible to use the same technique on a larger kit?
so if you have a 10 piece kit...you will get a minimum of 10 sounds hands down and if you do play your "small kit technique" on a large kit you will beat your small kit in sounds and musicality everytime
its almost like saying a quarter will get you more than a dollar.

infernal drummer

05-12-2006, 02:54 AM

in my opinion the bigger the better ... ironmaiden fillings would sound awful on just a 5 piece kit.. we need clive or nicko drums on that.. kiss fillings imo also need big kits.. singer tries with 4 toms and 2 floor toms but it just doesnt "do" it for me, when i listen to the fillings where criss or carr could go from really high to low sounds.. it just sounds better... f.ex kate bush's song "december will be magic again", would sound awful on on 4 piece kit.. if u know the song you will know wich "filling" im talking about. offcourse you can always do a alternativ filling in that song.. but i dont think it would sound so perfect.. .. imao :)

infernal drummer

05-12-2006, 02:56 AM

That's exactly how my kit is laid out. If you look at a pid, you can see all the elements of a 4 piece kit in the same area, but there are many more elements surrounding them, thus expanding my range of possibilities:

nice kit . do you have a video of you playing it?

somedrummer

06-08-2006, 07:05 PM

nice kit . do you have a video of you playing it?

No, not at the moment. I just wanted people to see how my philosophy of setup works in this discussion, that is, having a small kit inside a big kit.

da cheese walks

06-09-2006, 12:56 AM

ok i really dont get why theres all the Bozzio bashing goin on here!!!

i mean Bozzio has a huge kit...but he also uses practically EVERY bit of that kit....

I mean just llok at say Europes drummer in teh video for teh final countdown....he uses two basses,one snare,hihats an about 2 cymbals...an hes got bout a hundred more...i think its stupid if its not used or if its just there to make tehm look better!!!haha!

mikejames

06-10-2006, 02:22 AM

I suppose that since we all hear differently, each drummer has to decide if they need more or less equipment based on what THEY hear. It's subjective. I've always used a small kit, so naturally that's what I prefer. But I enjoy listening to a great drummer playing ANY size kit.

Regardless, there are practical reasons for using the smaller kit, if you're a busy working drummer, playing with more than one group of musicians:

• A small kit is more "universal", when it comes to both "house" and studio drums. So if you're used to that, it won't handicap you when you're called on to play a smaller kit. Personally, I consider depending on any sort of "custom" equipment to be a trap. There will be times when you won't have it.

• By it's very nature, (if set up "normally") a smaller kit requires less rotation of your body, and fewer long reaches.

• A smaller set doesn't take up as much stage space. If you only play big concerts, this probably isn't an issue. If you play nightclubs, it often is.

• Typically, you can see the audience (and the others in the band) better, and they can see you better. You may be called on to get "cues" from a musical director, so you need to see them easily, and they need to see that you got the cue.

• You can fit a smaller kit (and yourself and some luggage) into a cab. This has been useful to me on many occasions...

• Setup and breakdown is obviously faster and easier. Overall maintenance is cheaper, because there are fewer parts. Shipping, if required, is cheaper.

• It's easier for everyone to understand what you're doing, when you play a small kit. Of course, you may not care about that, but your fans and students will.

• When you play a smaller kit, you think differently... Simpler, in terms of mainly focusing on the rhythms you play, and combining that with some kind of general vocabulary of "high, medium, and low" tones. With a larger kit, you would tend to spend more of your thought time on the multitude of pitches and tones you have, and perhaps not as much on rhythms. For example, it's a typical "young guy" approach with a big kit to simply play the same pattern over and over, but on different drums. Whether one approach is "better" than the other is subjective, but they are different.

• If you're the "collector" type, you can buy more small kits that "match".

finnhiggins

06-10-2006, 02:56 AM

This is a very old discussion, back from the dead. But there's a few people here making assertions that more drums = more pitches and you cannot access the same range of pitches on a smaller kit.

This is exactly the kind of assumption that I think playing a big kit promotes. It stops you thinking about possibilities of how YOU can do things, and instead makes you think of what extra bits of gear would do it for you.

Want to see more pitches on a smaller kit? Go check out Ari Hoenig. I have a solo album of his here which is actually SOLO - he's playing the head melody by bending to notes on his toms by applying pressure with the other stick, then breaking out into solo playing over the form before returning to the head.

Saying that more toms gives you more pitches is like saying that having more strings on a guitar gives you more pitches. True - but that doesn't mean that an ordinary six string guitar only has six pitches unless you're an impossibly crap guitarist.

matt949

06-10-2006, 07:32 AM

This is exactly the kind of assumption that I think playing a big kit promotes. It stops you thinking about possibilities of how YOU can do things, and instead makes you think of what extra bits of gear would do it for you.

Want to see more pitches on a smaller kit? Go check out Ari Hoenig. I have a solo album of his here which is actually SOLO - he's playing the head melody by bending to notes on his toms by applying pressure with the other stick, then breaking out into solo playing over the form before returning to the head.

Saying that more toms gives you more pitches is like saying that having more strings on a guitar gives you more pitches. True - but that doesn't mean that an ordinary six string guitar only has six pitches unless you're an impossibly crap guitarist.

yes very true but to take the other side of the argument if you have a big kit and do the same thing with the bending and all then thats even more pitches is it not? well i guess that would also depend on your tuning and bending but you see where im going with that?
and by the way i play a 5 peice so dont think im biased please! =)

finnhiggins

06-10-2006, 10:21 AM

yes very true but to take the other side of the argument if you have a big kit and do the same thing with the bending and all then thats even more pitches is it not?

Sure, but name somebody who actually does this. Ditto for the whole Joey Baron hands/brushes/sticks/millions of sounds from every damn bit of the kit thing. Nobody does, because as I suggested, big kit playing promotes a different mentality from small kit playing - and small kit playing tends to force people to do things like pitch bending, using other striking implements, learning to control note length with muting, playing with hands and so forth. Big kit playing? Eh, just stick another drum on there. There's plenty already...

The reality is that in life you ultimately have to choose to be a broad generalist (big kit) or detailed specialist (small kit). There isn't really time to be both, and that's pretty clear for most people in any avenue in life. That's not to say that either approach is BETTER than the other, but just claiming that broad-brush generalism is superior is clearly false - so people doing the same thing for the whole big-vs-small debate just wrankles.

matt949

06-10-2006, 09:05 PM

claiming that broad-brush generalism is superior is clearly false
right on. very very true

atomicsoy

08-07-2006, 03:21 AM

Try Grand collins! i went to his concert thing the other day. he had about 20 pedals, 26 drums & had about 4 base drums...
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Grant_Collins.html <--- thats him

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-07-2006, 04:18 AM

woo! what a thread. the arguement between dogbreath and finn was very interesting...

and i do have to agree with dogbreath. like he stated numerous times, the fact that a 9

piece kit is capable of producing more sounds than a 4 piece is pure fact.

awesome thread though, very good read.

DogBreath

08-07-2006, 06:08 AM

Agreed. Great discussion... even though I am right.

jazzgregg

08-07-2006, 09:08 AM

Agreed. Great discussion... even though I am right.
No, you aren't.
Since there are many different people essntially looking at the same subject that many different ways, I might as well try and clear it up.

First, DB, you're missing Finn's point and have been all along. He is saying that in theory, there are more sound-making possibilites with literally more things to hit. This is what you are saying as well. You 2, in fact, agree on this.

Then things go awry (though people have provided examples that, in attempting to work in favour of DB, actually work in favour of Finn, as Lang is hardly a 'creative drummer' in the way Joey Baron or Jim Keltner is). Finn is rightly saying that there isn't a drummer that anyone can name that uses a big drumset, that takes the time to explore the sound possibilities with one drum, as they have so may others to chose from. So they don't bother. You could even call this a difference of approach. This is what Finn has been trying to say and where people keep telling him to not use a large drumset as he my become confused.

Let me offer what I hope to be universally understood reasons why (choose your own example):

-When you have one cymbal, you need to discover ways of making that cymbal sound interesting for 2 hours every time you gig (assuming you gig) so your (and the audiences) ears don't get tired of that same sound. If you have 12 cymbals, who gives a crap about that? It isn't neccesary, just hit something else.

-take the above point and substute 'drums' for 'cymbals'.

-Look what happens when you take away Pearts giant drumset.

-Many people with big kits may feel they need to justify having all that gear since they spent their hard earned bread on it, rather than admit/think that they could be creative on less stuff.

- What's the difference between going to a buffet and choosing food and going to a street hot dog vendor?

- Artists (photographers, painters, sketch artists, etc) who work in monotones (i.e. black and white) need to pay more attention as they cannot rely on vibrancy to make their art. They need to pay closer attention to the composition rather than simply the subject.

And so on. For my money, most big set players I see rely far too heavily on their sets (Peart is a good example as is IMO, Phillips-who sounds great on a BIG set). It becomes a crutch that, when removed, they are at a loss for what to hit. No one is saying that you suck if you use a big set, but that it leads you to play differently.

DB, your comment that bigger = more musical, IMO couldn't be more wrong. In fact, as Finn has been trying to say, it's quite the opposite for all reasons mentioned above. I certainly hope that's evident now.

G

finnhiggins

08-07-2006, 09:49 AM

Gregg, you're a scholar and a gentleman.

Or a scholar, at least..

That's exactly what I've been trying to get across. Potential is not the same thing as realisation. Potentially it's better to have more gear because you can do more with it. But that's a bit like saying that potentially it's better to study more subjects when you're at university: Why just study music when you could also study economics, computer science, philosophy, marketing, law, medicine, mathematics, physics and marine biology? After all, then you could not only be the next John Coltrane but you could also be as rich as Bill Gates, own the biggest software company in the world, kick Stephen Hawkings ass (hell, how hard can it be!), figure out the grand unified theory of everything, cure cancer and AIDS and still have time to go swimming with your favourite endangered species of crab!

Oh yeah, time... that's the rub. Few (none?) of us have the time, focus and innate genius in a particular field to be the next John Coltrane, let alone all the rest of that stuff. Not only that, even if we have the time to study all this stuff then the mental overhead of dealing with so many unrelated things tends to result in each one of them getting less focus than they would get as a pure fraction of the whole.

So that's what it comes down to. You can play a big kit and play average across the whole range of voices, or you can decide to really get to know a small one. Claiming there's more musicality inherant in a big kit is like claiming that the guy at your school who took one 101 paper of all the above subjects and then dropped out to work at McDonalds is more of a scholar than the guy with a Ph.D in one subject, just because he studied MORE THINGS.

Unfortunately as drummers we do get a bit caught up in coveting our gear. Accumulation is the goal, when actually we could be dedicating a bit more love and attention to what we have and learning a lot more. So while I have nicer gear than most of the people who'll read this I still lust after a Lignum custom set, or a bop kit in different sizes, etc etc. But then we come down to why we actually do this, and if you look honestly at the gear that some of the greatest records of all time where recorded with then it's not about what you actually NEED to play great music. It's not far off the whole Buddhist idea of samudaya and dukkha - we feel that for whatever reason something is missing and decide that instead of fixing the problem from within we can fix it by craving more of something tangiable around us. So yeah, it feels great to have a house full of drums, and the feeling of a nice shiny new cymbal or something in the mail feels really good... temporarily. But ultimately if you never get to the stage where you can actually appreciate the value in any single piece of gear without feeling the need to add more then you're never going to be happy. There's always something wrong with the setup, with the cymbal selection, with the number of drums, the brand, the wood...

The thing is, that can go on forever. It never stops - there's always something outside yourself to fix. I have a hell of a lot of respect for drummers who can just commit to playing a small, simple kit of the standard that you'll find in any club without having to worry about whether you've got your Axis Longboards or your particular arrangement of 18 cymbals. There's records coming out every year where guys (and girls - Susie Ibarra springs to mind) are proving that there's still huge unexplored realms that can be done with just hats or a cymbal and a kick and snare. It's not like you'll ever be creatively limited by playing small if you decide to go that way, but it does require that you have some creativity to start with.

rmedek

08-07-2006, 10:52 AM

All of these arguments I've been reading are well thought out, but they're all pretty subjective. Defining musicality…that's going to be tough. It's all a matter of taste.

Drummers are an interesting breed, because percussion, by nature, is very gear-oriented. If you're a saxophone player, you play a saxophone. If you're a guitarist, you play a guitar. Oh, sure, there's lots of things you can add to that, but it all comes down to that one instrument.

If you're a drummer, playing on a modern drumset, you play a collection of instruments. And you get to choose them. It's kind of mellowed out nowadays – most sets are pretty standard, with a snare and a bass drum and toms of some sort – but back in the day drumsets were insane. There were all sorts of percussion pieces floating around, some balanced on stands, some mounted on consolettes, some resting on trays; the point being that we, as drummers, get to collect the instruments we want to play and then surround ourselves with them.

The bottom line is you need to play what you hear in your head as music. Okay, maybe Peart on a four piece isn't as cool as Peart on a 12 piece, but I can't imagine that his bandmates are saying to him, "You know what would be awesome in this anthemic rock song? Maybe if you, like, explored the textures of your snare drum!" Heck no, man. This is a situation that calls for cascading single-stroke fours down no less than six drums. And I don't know about you but as much as I love Jim Keltner I can't imagine him on 2112.

Saying that the limitations of a smaller kit forces musicality and creativity is fine and all – but sometimes it's just that. A limitation.

Having said all that, I play a four piece kit, with an extra snare every now and then. But that's the music I play.

kacperivo

08-07-2006, 02:31 PM

generally, i respect all drummers as long as they play, cause it's their passion. still, however, i definitely prefer herlin riley's latest video, to terry bozzio's :).

neilpscuz

08-07-2006, 03:27 PM

I have a 14pc Tama superstar because I enjoy it. I played for years on 4 and 5 pc kits, and always wanted more. Ever try to play 2112 on a 5 pc ? It's no fun. I enjoy sonic explorations with the many voices I now have available to me on my current kit. Compensating for other inadequacies ? Uh, i'm a drummer not Dr.Phil, let him figure it out !

rogers_68

08-07-2006, 07:41 PM

i'm a small kit guy, although i have appreciation for guys who use a bigger kit and make good use of it. the best example i can think of the top of my head is stewart copeland.

i like a smaller set up because it makes me think about what i'm playing more. i have hats, a crash, a crash/ride, and 4 drums. to me it just makes sense. (it's also easier to lug around, but that's beside the point.) i started off playing a 5-piece with more cymbals, then changed to a 4-piece with slightly fewer cymbals, and then now it's just 2 cymbals (+ hats). sometimes i'll even play with no rack tom or crash cymbal. i swear i play funkier when i do that. then other times i'll have djembe to my left and play it with sticks or hands, depending on the song.

it's all preference. just make good use of what you have, whether it's a lot or a little.

somedrummer

08-08-2006, 04:25 AM

How about this: If human nature were discarded, a big kit would be advantageous, as all items could be used every possible way to make every possible sound. However, due to human nature, we are more likely to use the things we have than to find new ways to use a smaller portion of that.

Perhaps it is a reflection of our laziness as a society, or something else. I'm not really sure.

So basically, the two sides are coming at it with different viewpoints, and I don't expect it will ever be resolved, much like the debate over... whether God exists.

So, in conclusion, drums are Godly!!!

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 04:38 AM

No, you aren't.
Since there are many different people essntially looking at the same subject that many different ways, I might as well try and clear it up.

First, DB, you're missing Finn's point and have been all along. He is saying that in theory, there are more sound-making possibilites with literally more things to hit. This is what you are saying as well. You 2, in fact, agree on this.

Then things go awry (though people have provided examples that, in attempting to work in favour of DB, actually work in favour of Finn, as Lang is hardly a 'creative drummer' in the way Joey Baron or Jim Keltner is). Finn is rightly saying that there isn't a drummer that anyone can name that uses a big drumset, that takes the time to explore the sound possibilities with one drum, as they have so may others to chose from. So they don't bother. You could even call this a difference of approach. This is what Finn has been trying to say and where people keep telling him to not use a large drumset as he my become confused.

Let me offer what I hope to be universally understood reasons why (choose your own example):

-When you have one cymbal, you need to discover ways of making that cymbal sound interesting for 2 hours every time you gig (assuming you gig) so your (and the audiences) ears don't get tired of that same sound. If you have 12 cymbals, who gives a crap about that? It isn't neccesary, just hit something else.

-take the above point and substute 'drums' for 'cymbals'.

-Look what happens when you take away Pearts giant drumset.

-Many people with big kits may feel they need to justify having all that gear since they spent their hard earned bread on it, rather than admit/think that they could be creative on less stuff.

- What's the difference between going to a buffet and choosing food and going to a street hot dog vendor?

- Artists (photographers, painters, sketch artists, etc) who work in monotones (i.e. black and white) need to pay more attention as they cannot rely on vibrancy to make their art. They need to pay closer attention to the composition rather than simply the subject.

And so on. For my money, most big set players I see rely far too heavily on their sets (Peart is a good example as is IMO, Phillips-who sounds great on a BIG set). It becomes a crutch that, when removed, they are at a loss for what to hit. No one is saying that you suck if you use a big set, but that it leads you to play differently.

DB, your comment that bigger = more musical, IMO couldn't be more wrong. In fact, as Finn has been trying to say, it's quite the opposite for all reasons mentioned above. I certainly hope that's evident now.

but... you could do the same thing with a bigger kit... except with even MORE options.

as in, if you have one cymbal and you can find ways to get 12 different sounds out of it, if

you had 2 cymbals, well there's 24 sounds! just because their are more drums doesn't

mean you are any less creative than what you choose to be. you assume that if peart

was playing with a four piece he would be at a loss for what to play. why? like dogbreath

has said a few times before. hiding in a big kit is the same exact four piece to which you

are referring. what the player does with it is totally in his or her hands. but what you can

do on four drums can be multiplied to another tom. or another cymbal. thus, more

musicality.

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 04:59 AM

but... you could do the same thing with a bigger kit... except with even MORE options.

Similarly, students studying one major at universities should in fact be studying twenty, right? After all, if they can learn one subject in depth it'd be better to learn 20x as much, right?

It does have to be asked, did you actually read the thread before writing that post? I'm quite baffled by the inability of so many people here to grasp something that seems rather simple:

If you have a fixed amount of something (practice time, attention, focus) and you divide it by a larger number of things then each piece becomes smaller.

This whole ".... but you could do the same on a bigger kit!" thing reminds me of the joke about the little girl, who when asked how many pieces a cake should be cut into answer "Not too many, or I won't be able to finish it all!"

The more things you focus on the less ability you have to focus on any one. That's just life for you. So no, you couldn't do that on a larger kit because your focus would be diluted to the extent that quite simply the time isn't there. That's why nobody has yet been able to give an example of a huge-kit player who DOES play like this in real life.

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 05:39 AM

Similarly, students studying one major at universities should in fact be studying twenty, right? After all, if they can learn one subject in depth it'd be better to learn 20x as much, right?

why not? just like if you can make thirty sounds come out of a snare drum... what's the need for toms, hi hats, ride, crash, splash, china, toms, or a bass drum.

It does have to be asked, did you actually read the thread before writing that post?

i could ask the same question... since ten posts ago i answered that very question

I'm quite baffled by the inability of so many people here to grasp something that seems rather simple:

as am i

If you have a fixed amount of something (practice time, attention, focus) and you divide it by a larger number of things then each piece becomes smaller.

i don't get distracted when there are too many drums around

This whole ".... but you could do the same on a bigger kit!" thing reminds me of the joke about the little girl, who when asked how many pieces a cake should be cut into answer "Not too many, or I won't be able to finish it all!"

that was a terrible joke : )

The more things you focus on the less ability you have to focus on any one. That's just life for you. So no, you couldn't do that on a larger kit because your focus would be diluted to the extent that quite simply the time isn't there.

i disagree. you asked dogbreath earlier in a challenge of sorts if he could

" Let's see a video of you playing a sequence of single strokes in the following pattern:

RH: Floor tom, rim, striking near tip of stick.
LH: Edge ping on a cymbal.
RH: Rimshot on high tom tom
LH: Open cross-stick on a high tom
RH: Rimshot on the snare
LH: Open hi-hat."

now, you can apply that same sequence of single strokens in the same pattern to... an

additional tom. or a pair of aux hats as well as your main hats. more musicality : )

you say "no this can't be done on a larger kit because your focus would be diluted"... why?

anything you can do on one drum can be applied to another, no dilution involved.

That's why nobody has yet been able to give an example of a huge-kit player who DOES play like this in real life

what is "this"

low-tech

08-08-2006, 05:45 AM

i like smaller kits. i moved up to a 4 piece from a 3 recently.

what id like to do since i have alot of excess junk cymbals is set up a 2 piece kit with tons of cymbals. im thinking about switching to this soon. bass, snare, double kick and maybe 10 cymbals of various sizes.

this also coincides with my desire to experimant with hand hammering and cymbal cutting because i got alot of stuff the same size,similiar sounding rides.

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 06:03 AM

radiofriendlyunitshifter,
You have not been to University, have you? If you did, I doubt you would feel the same about 20 majors, note majors, not classes. By the way, I often do gigs with a cymbal.

You may be answering the same question you did a few pages ago, but we all are. That question, is infact, the debate and thread title. However, it appears that no matter how much we on the small set side, have to say, you big setters come back with the same stuff over and over. If you're repeating yourself, it is your own fault since pages ago, Finn asked for proof of a big set player ACTUALLY playing like 'this' ('this', to clear up a rather obvious question, means musically and using every bit of his/her set).

There is no proof, so you've been reduced to repitition. As Finn and myself have said, Lang, Donati, BOZZIO, Portnoy, Peart are NOT examples of musicality in the same way Joey Baron and Matt Chamberlin are (note: I'm not mentioning any Jazz guys to keep the debate fair). We aren't saying you CAN'T be musical on a big set (and btw- THAT was why Finn suggested you read the thread as you replied with 'but you can have more possibilities on a big set' showing that at least you didn't read MY post you quoted from), we are saying they just aren't.

Again, not that it isn't theoretically possible, just that there aren't any doing it. One more time for everyone now or have we got it?

G

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 06:46 AM

radiofriendlyunitshifter,
You have not been to University, have you? If you did, I doubt you would feel the same about 20 majors, note majors, not classes. By the way, I often do gigs with a cymbal.

i will be attending college in roughly two weeks. i was playing around with his hyperbole.

You may be answering the same question you did a few pages ago, but we all are. That question, is infact, the debate and thread title. However, it appears that no matter how much we on the small set side, have to say, you big setters come back with the same stuff over and over. If you're repeating yourself, it is your own fault since pages ago, Finn asked for proof of a big set player ACTUALLY playing like 'this' ('this', to clear up a rather obvious question, means musically and using every bit of his/her set).

There is no proof, so you've been reduced to repitition. As Finn and myself have said, Lang, Donati, BOZZIO, Portnoy, Peart are NOT examples of musicality in the same way Joey Baron and Matt Chamberlin are (note: I'm not mentioning any Jazz guys to keep the debate fair). We aren't saying you CAN'T be musical on a big set (and btw- THAT was why Finn suggested you read the thread as you replied with 'but you can have more possibilities on a big set' showing that at least you didn't read MY post you quoted from), we are saying they just aren't.

Again, not that it isn't theoretically possible, just that there aren't any doing it. One more time for everyone now or have we got it?

G

i realize you aren't saying you 'CAN'T be musical on a big set'. obviously that would be

very wrong. but you are saying there isn't ANYONE doing it? or, more likely, anyone that

you know of.

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 07:14 AM

hey what about this guy:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/charlyantolinicaravan.html

drum mutes, rim shots on the toms, edge ping on the cymbal, using the snare throw...

FIVE piece, and SIX cymbals.

there you go : )

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 07:29 AM

i will be attending college in roughly two weeks. i was playing around with his hyperbole.

No hyperbole, I was demonstrating to you the idea of breadth versus depth. When you start school at a young age you're likely taught many topics - the basics of English, science, maths, geography, history, music, sports, blah blah blah for quite a long list. But once you get to a tertiary (advanced, university/college or above) level then you are generally expected to narrow this down to a particular field of specialism. There are a few great cross-field generalists out there in life who combine shallow knowledge of a large number of subjects into something of great merit, too.

The reason for this is that once you take on the commitment of knowing a particular subject to degree level you are essentially deciding to focus, full-time, on a smaller set of information so that you can absorb all the nuances and details of the particular field you work in.

That's what I'm talking about. You can decide to be a specialist or a generalist, but generally speaking you it's not possible to pursue being a generalist across a large number of subjects all the way up to the level of knowledge you have to gain to major in something at degree level. There just aren't enough hours in the day.

i realize you aren't saying you 'CAN'T be musical on a big set'. obviously that would be
very wrong. but you are saying there isn't ANYONE doing it? or, more likely, anyone that
you know of.

I don't think we're even saying that. There are obvious examples that do - Jack DeJohnette being a high-profile one. I'm sure Gregg can provide a list if prompted, too. The point is, I see those guys as being like the examples that get pulled out in the reading-vs-no-reading debate.

"Buddy Rich couldn't read!" cries kid #1.
"Dennis Chambers can't read!" cries kid #2.

Right, says teacher. That's correct. Hands up who here can play like Dennis Chambers or Buddy Rich could at your age?

OK, that's a bit low. But the argument is the same: For some people very tonally colourful playing comes fairly naturally, regardless of kit size. For some people reading is unnecessary because complex musical structures are easy to remember and play perfectly after one or two listens to a track. For the rest of us we have to learn and develop things in a way that is beneficial for us to be able to achieve such things.

Either way, from my experience, these people are a tiny majority of drum kit players. Most kids sit down at a big kit and start thrashing out unmusical rubbish. Worse, most intermediate or even advanced players will do the same. I do. And while he has yet to prove me right or wrong on the matter I'd be just as sure that by the standards I would hold myself to... Dogbreath probably does too. That's not to say that either of us are incurable, but I'd suggest that if either of us are curable in this respect it's going to come from having good control and understanding on a smaller set, not adding more bells and whistles.

Just as reading provides a great framework for learning to understand rhythmic structures and retain them in your head (I literally couldn't remember bass drum patterns until I learned to read!), small kit playing provides a great framework for learning to understand tone, melody, structure and MUSIC on the drums.

From my watching of many, many semi-pro and weekend warrior players - and, indeed, many videos and songs posted here under "Your playing" - I think it's pretty clear that these aspects of drumming are very under-appreciated by drummers. Moreso even than playing with proper technique. While most people here will happily assert that student drummers should spend a good portion of their technique practice working in isolation on a pad because it is *good for you* there seems to be a phenomenal resistance to the really rather obvious fact that less experienced players are very easily distracted by re-arranging, buying, cleaning, tuning and discussing huge piles of STUFF when they actually in reality have little control over the basic core of a drumset.

This is my argument. It applies to student drummers, sure. But I don't think it's just a beginner issue, because there are many technically advanced players on huge kits out there who I personally don't feel have ever had to consider the issues that a small kit makes clear as daylight. The way I see it, you can learn a lot about a drummer and their practice habits by looking at their practice setup. See a practice pad in there somewhere? They're probably going to spend at least a part of their time working on technique. See a small kit in there somewhere? There's better odds that they're thinking about training themselves as musicians, rather than just guys who hit stuff at varying degrees of speed and power.

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 07:35 AM

Although there's really nothing to add to Finn's post (and some repition), I was typing this before so I still feel the need to post it=)
i will be attending college in roughly two weeks. i was playing around with his hyperbole.
Either way, my point is my point, and I think you mean metaphor. A hyperbole is as far from what Finn said as I am from China.

i realize you aren't saying you 'CAN'T be musical on a big set'. obviously that would be

very wrong.
Then why would you re-state the obvious and re-quote to that end?

but you are saying there isn't ANYONE doing it? or, more likely, anyone that

you know of.

Not at all, I certainly know a few, but you need to fight your own battles. Besides, that small handfull is an exception to the rule by far and they have proven themselves on very small (read one piece) sets countless times. On the other hand, we are not saying that a small set makes you musical or that if you use a small set you' re automatically musical.

Lastly regarding Charley, that's not the kind of big set we've been talking about. 5pc? c'mon, man, don't just randomly look for people that might fit the bill...
G

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 07:53 AM

Either way, from my experience, these people are a tiny majority of drum kit players. Most kids sit down at a big kit and start thrashing out unmusical rubbish. Worse, most intermediate or even advanced players will do the same. I do. And while he has yet to prove me right or wrong on the matter I'd be just as sure that by the standards I would hold myself to... Dogbreath probably does too. That's not to say that either of us are incurable, but I'd suggest that if either of us are curable in this respect it's going to come from having good control and understanding on a smaller set, not adding more bells and whistles.

haha, oh goodness, no need for name calling.

i said "but you are saying there isn't ANYONE doing it? or, more likely, anyone that

you know of." in response to jazzgreggs "Again, not that it isn't theoretically possible, just

that there aren't any doing it. One more time for everyone now or have we got it?" so he

did indeed say that.

i understand what you're saying. i do. the depth of players' drumming who have but a

simple four piece is more so most of the time than say the depth of player's of a players

drumming who has a seven piece as opposed to breadth in which the player with the

seven piece player has the leg up.

i agree.

but with me in agreeance with that... why do you think we don't see more depth from

players with seven pieces? it's possible. so why don't we see it more often?

i don't know... i'm torn on the issue.

because i agree with you the fact that most jazz artists use their minimalist kit to its

fullest extent, while portnoy certainly doesn't (depth wise).

on the other hand, i think it wouldn't be out of the question to see someone with a six

piece have as much depth as someone with a four piece. and there HAS to be an

example of that by a drummer SOMEWHERE. if not, then finn, add another tom and a

floor tom to your kit and make it happen. apply the same mutes, off center hits, rim

shots, and rim clicks to two more surfaces. and there you go. but i find it hard to believe

there isn't anyone who has yet to do that.

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 08:03 AM

Either way, my point is my point, and I think you mean metaphor. A hyperbole is as far from what Finn said as I am from China.

eh, i took it as an exaggeration. but, yup i agree it is most definitely a metaphor. (cute hyperbole in your correction)

Then why would you re-state the obvious and re-quote to that end?

because i love to get you riled up.

Lastly regarding Charley, that's not the kind of big set we've been talking about. 5pc? c'mon, man, don't just randomly look for people that might fit the bill...
G

haha you caught me! nah, i just came across the man while enjoying some

videos. but hey... a 5 piece is no 4 piece... and it's only one tom away from a six piece...

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 08:15 AM

eh, i took it as an exaggeration. but, yup i agree it is most definitely a metaphor. (cute hyperbole in your correction)

It wouldn't be a proper correction without one.

because i love to get you riled up.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to do, huh?=)

As for why you don't see the kind of artistry we're discussing from big set players, re-read some of the stuff, it's in there. From all sides too, with actual explanations (with usual brilliant examples) from Finn. And yeah, there ARE people who use a big set artistically and musically, my statement was a blanket statement in the same way that 'all ZBT's sound like crap'. Sure, the vast majority do and the few that don't don't affect the conclusion in any real way.

G

rmedek

08-08-2006, 08:28 AM

Okay, a few questions, then:

* What constitutes a big kit? Six pieces or more? Only drums, or percussion too?
* What constitutes artistry or musicality? I.e., why is Joey Baron more musical than Terry Bozzio or vice versa?

It's all subjective. It's a matter of opinion. Saying small kits are more musical because guys like Joey Baron play small kits is like saying oil paints are more artistic because Van Gogh used oils.

Guys like Matt Chamberlain and Joey Baron and Terry Bozzio are musical. Period. They are good musicians. Whether they choose to play a big kit or small kit is up to them.

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 08:32 AM

Saying small kits are more musical because guys like Joey Baron play small kits is like saying oil paints are more artistic because Van Gogh used oils.

No one is saying anything of the sort, don't make stuff up.

G

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 08:33 AM

As for why you don't see the kind of artistry we're discussing from big set players, re-read some of the stuff, it's in there. From all sides too, with actual explanations (with usual brilliant examples) from Finn. And yeah, there ARE people who use a big set artistically and musically, my statement was a blanket statement in the same way that 'all ZBT's sound like crap'. Sure, the vast majority do and the few that don't don't affect the conclusion in any real way.

i believe i am going to re read this 259 post thread. it's a good discussion, and it was

interesting enough (especially the back and forth between db and finn to read the whole

thing through).

oh i know there are people who use a big set artistically and musically, i'm talking about

such people who use it to the depth of which finn (and you) are speaking. don't start

going backwards! haha. that's how things become misconstrued.

so... i initially agreed with dogbreath, but now not?

i think what might have had happened was the debate somehow warped throughout the thread... maybe.

i'd better start reading...

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 08:38 AM

i'm talking about

such people who use it to the depth of which finn (and you) are speaking.
So am I.

i think what might have had happened was the debate somehow warped throughout the thread... maybe.

i'd better start reading...

It did shift, but you'll see that when you read it again, far be it for me to post what occurred when it's literally a few pages back=)

G

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 09:22 AM

rmedek

08-08-2006, 09:29 AM

No one is saying anything of the sort, don't make stuff up.

G

I didn't mean to "make stuff up"… it's just that I get the impression that this is the argument you guys are making.

I still fail to see why big kit players are less musical because they employ a different method of hearing a new sound.

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 09:33 AM

i understand what you're saying. i do. the depth of players' drumming who have but a simple four piece is more so most of the time than say the depth of player's of a players drumming who has a seven piece as opposed to breadth in which the player with the
seven piece player has the leg up.

i agree.

but with me in agreeance with that... why do you think we don't see more depth from players with seven pieces? it's possible. so why don't we see it more often? i don't know... i'm torn on the issue.

I can think of a bunch of reasons why.

1) Most drummers who play very musically and expressively on the kit have played a *large* amount of music in public. Playing music in public requires picking up your gear, carrying it out of the house and setting it up somewhere else. The more regularly you do this the more you tend to think "Do I really need this particular item of gear"? When your kit sits at home there's no disincentive other than financial to adding more stuff. On a stage there's much more limited space and you have to set up and (worse) break down all the stuff at the end of the night. The result of this is that the longer you play gigs generally the smaller your kit tends to get, on a trend line.

2) Drummers who've done a lot of practice on small kits tend to see less and less advantage in a big one. Once you start altering your style to make use of open/muted tones, different striking implements and so forth then each piece of gear added tends to add less and less to the set because largely the differences between the same tones on two pieces of gear aren't as dramatic as developing an entirely new tone. I have some open/muted patterns I play with the hands and it really makes no odds whether I play it on a 4pc or a 5pc. I can use either, but the 4pc sounds just as good because the sound variation is still at a required level of density where it sounds nice.

3) The styles where big kits are "cool, man!" are generally the ones that respect speed and flash more than subtle musicality and nuance. Does Virgil Donati really need to have those toms over his head to play the stuff he plays on them? No, but his audience likes it.

4) The more stuff you have the more practice time you have to dedicate to the practical issues of getting between it at an acceptable rate of speed and control. That reduces the amount of focus you can put into actual musical playing. On a 4pc kit with two cymbals it'll take you about ten minutes to warm up on a drill that incorporates all the possible transitions between surfaces. On Terry Bozzio's kit you'd literally be there all day, because as you add more gear the number of combinations increases in a non-linear fashion. EDIT: Note, Bozzio deals with this the same way a piano player does it. Rather than drilling all the possible combinations he instead drills scales and arpeggios on his kit. The result of that is that his kit is both something more than the sum of its parts in that if you take a note out it can cause problems, and also less than the sum of its parts in that the actual degree of tonal variation between different drums is basically expected to be virtually zero. Somebody like Portnoy, on the other hand... whoo... I'd imagine there are a large, large number of moves between surfaces on his kit that he just can't do and which he learns as he comes up with parts on the kit. I seriously doubt he has total control and ability to move smoothly between everything, anytime.

5) People use bigger kits to get more sounds. People who can get more sounds from a smaller kit look at all of the above issues and go "to hell with it, I'll stick with this". That's why few conga players use more than a couple of drums in their playing setup - because for what they want to say musically they have access to much more than a player just using sticks on the drums would. Then you look at how bongos are used in classical percussion - blap! Oops, that's all we do with that drum. Get me another!

because i agree with you the fact that most jazz artists use their minimalist kit to its fullest extent, while portnoy certainly doesn't (depth wise). on the other hand, i think it wouldn't be out of the question to see someone with a six piece have as much depth as someone with a four piece. and there HAS to be an example of that by a drummer SOMEWHERE. if not, then finn, add another tom and a floor tom to your kit and make it happen. apply the same mutes, off center hits, rim shots, and rim clicks to two more surfaces. and there you go. but i find it hard to believe there isn't anyone who has yet to do that.

I think it's just all the above reasons. Yeah, it's possible, and there are people who do it. But it's extremely rare because firstly the players who ever learn to play in a really expressive, deep way with a small number of drums are a minority anyway, secondly the players who develop it tend to do so by first scrapping their big-kit dreams in favour of focus on a smaller instrument and thirdly because once they've developed those skills they don't see the reason to be lugging more crap around with them every night.

But there are a few who slip through all those cracks. So yeah, it's possible. But is it preferable? Virgil Donati can play those sky tom things because he's practiced his butt off working on it, but should you put them on your kit? Not unless you want to duplicate the amount of practice he's put in, surely?

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 09:47 AM

alright so...

::sigh::

you said: (post 240)

"Then things go awry (though people have provided examples that, in attempting to work in favour of DB, actually work in favour of Finn, as Lang is hardly a 'creative drummer' in the way Joey Baron or Jim Keltner is). Finn is rightly saying that there isn't a drummer that anyone can name that uses a big drumset, that takes the time to explore the sound possibilities with one drum, as they have so may others to chose from. So they don't bother. You could even call this a difference of approach. This is what Finn has been trying to say and where people keep telling him to not use a large drumset as he my become confused."

so basically it comes down to players with big (6+ piece?) kits don't play with the same

depth as players with small kits (4/5 piece?). correct? so since musicality is subjective,

the real debate should be concerning whether someone explores a big kit as thoroughly

and as in depth as an artist with a small kit. and your answer is "no" because no one can

give an example.

so, i'll have to say, this is true for the majority of drummers, although there must certainly

be exceptions (couldn't find any in finn's latest post greg) in which a drumset larger than a

5 piece is explored to the same point of a 4 piece. you can't prove me wrong on that one.

that is, because you obviously don't have access to every drummer's playing.

Inherently in the debate is the 'do guys with big sets explore them as much as guys with little sets', it is the yang of the yin debate, the other side of the coin that is neccesarily addressed. You are quite right, the answer we are saying is 'no', for reasons we've all been over a bunch by now.

However...
I'll give you one name in addition to Jack DeJohnette (which Finn mentioned), but that's it. And I'm only doing so because you keep thinking I don't know any and because he singlehandedly proves and disproves both sides of this debate!=)

Fritz Hauser.

As we have both said, these are exceptions ('these' being the handfull I know) and are a very distinct minority in the overall picture. In other words, we are still correct=)

Go forth and seek out Fritz, but take note of his 'Man with Drum'. 'Drum'. Singular. I saw Fritz do this and it changes how you look at drums, period.

www.fritzhauser.ch

rmedek, did you read the thread? Why base an opinion on an 'impression' rather than we actually said?=)

G

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 09:49 AM

ok. but wouldn't drumming in such a way where you're emphasizing subtle nuances

be limited to quiter genres of music? then wouldn't more drums be necessary for the

sake of projection?

rmedek

08-08-2006, 10:03 AM

rmedek, did you read the thread? Why base an opinion on an 'impression' rather than we actually said?

Yes, I read the thread. I base my opinions on my impressions because it's natural for me to do that. It seems to work in real life, I figure why not give it a shot here, too?

So…about that musicality question – any takers?

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 10:07 AM

However...
I'll give you one name in addition to Jack DeJohnette (which Finn mentioned), but that's it. And I'm only doing so because you keep thinking I don't know any and because he singlehandedly proves and disproves both sides of this debate!=)
Fritz Hauser.

wait, i keep thinking you don't know any what? big kit artists that play with the depth of small kit artists?

As we have both said, these are exceptions ('these' being the handfull I know) and are a very distinct minority in the overall picture. In other words, we are still correct=)

as far as you know : )

radiofriendlyunitshifter

08-08-2006, 10:16 AM

ok gentleman, until the morning.

it's much too late, i'm suprised i'm still coherent.

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 10:16 AM

ok. but wouldn't drumming in such a way where you're emphasizing subtle nuances

be limited to quiter genres of music? then wouldn't more drums be necessary for the

sake of projection?

You'd think so, and in the case of some articulations on some drums most certainly so. But on the other hand that's true of whole pieces of gear without assistance too - I own an 8" tom that's way out of its depth on any heavy rock gig without a microphone. So does Danny Carey, I'm sure, and I can name at least one Tool song where a major structural fill relies on one.

Part of the exploration of tones and articulations on any drum is all about learning what will project over what from your own POV. And in this day and age if you can do it acoustically then you can do it behind an amplified band if it's important - drummers since Steve Gadd have been proving that very effectively, as microphone technology has evolved. You think Weckl's drum sound and indeed whole approach to playing is practical without all the stuff he's done with mixing and EQ over the years? A live kit unmiked behind a band is a pretty harsh mistress for whole realms of drumming material these days.

I saw JoJo Mayer give a great demonstration of the range of articulations he uses when he plays, from strokes to the edge of the snare to very deliberate variations in the width he opens the hi-hat to the "oooo" noise you can get by running your finger across a tom head. It all projected over what he was playing, and indeed was very well suited to it. At one point his bass drum was too quiet for a particular approach to playing to work properly, so he asked the engineer to turn it up.

"It's not about how loud it is", he says about the velocity used to strike drums. "We have microphones for that."

It's about tone. Try it - record some drums very quietly with a full set of close-mikes. You'll get a much more round, resonant drum sound. Need it to cut in your mix? Compress and EQ tastefully. Now go back and do the same thing, hitting VERY HARD. What do you get? A lot less tone, much shorter notes, much sharper attack? Right. These days the drums have moved beyond being an acoustic instrument. That changed around the time Steve Gadd discovered that in a recording environment you could actually hear the difference between a stepped hi-hat and one struck with a stick.

jazzgregg

08-08-2006, 10:17 AM

Ok, for me, enough is enough.

1. rmedek, you can chose to take what you think we said rather than what we actually did if you want. Personally, I got the impression you were saying that Finn was a crap drummer. Oh, you weren't saying that?=) As far as why big set players are less musical, you have that wrong too. No one is saying they are less musical because they use more drums, rather, they use more drums less musically.

2. Radio- yes, creative guys on a big set (if I was wrong in thinking that, I'm still glad I mentioned Fritz ) As for the 'Not that I know of', gimmie a break! If you have read any of my other posts anywhere else, you'd know that in these situations I'd WANT to be proven wrong, but I can't see that happening. In my opinon they are the exception? Most certainly, as will be illustrated next time Portnoy is mentioned for your side-lol.

G

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 10:33 AM

I still fail to see why big kit players are less musical because they employ a different method of hearing a new sound.

I'd argue the ones that add gear because they "heard a new sound" inside something they were doing and wanted to get it are in a minority. Most people add gear because of something as basic as gear-lust, which we're all guilty of. I buy new gear because of it, I'm certain. And if I buy something there's certainly a degree of feeling like I'm obliged to use it somewhere.

How many times have we all heard a great new sound in a shop, bought the item of gear and then spend the next year to eighteen months moving it around the setup and trying to find a way to integrate it musically into something on even the most basic "hit it in the middle" level? Most of the time the attempts at fitting this stuff into a groove isn't about what sounds musically ideal, it's about trying to find a place to use that damn $200 bit of gear you bought.

That's not thinking like a composer, deciding what tone is appropriate. That's thinking like a consumer, trying to justify impulse spending. And the divide there is the one that separates good big-kit players and bad ones. Unfortunately there's a lot more consumers in the world than there are composers, so that approach dominates overwhelmingly. Worse, composers are trained more than they are born. So if you let your consumerism dominate at the time you're learning your instrument then you're arguably letting the composer inside shrink away and die when deciding which things you want to hit.

This, generally, isn't the most musical way of thinking about sound. If you've got great natural ears then your results might be decent anyway because you find acceptable-to-good holes for it. But it's not a sound that is naturally very musically integrated, usually. Hence a lot of big-kit people have items of gear that only get used once or twice in a show, in the only slot where it fit. They certainly can't improvise effectively or expressively using these items, short of playing the "I hit everything with singles" big fill including it so quickly that they hope you don't notice it sounded silly.

The way I see it, if you only want a sound for a "I hit. It make sound" kind of attitude then that's the ideal place for electronics in a drum kit. The major advantage of acoustics over electronics musically is the range of tones and articulations. If you're just going to treat gear as "a new sound" for one section then you'd be better off taking a nice microphone into the shop, hitting the thing six times at different velocity levels and building a sampler patch for it.

rmedek

08-08-2006, 10:49 AM

Good points, Finn (and I'm totally guilty of buying gear "just in case" :) But…

That's not thinking like a composer, deciding what tone is appropriate. That's thinking like a consumer, trying to justify impulse spending. And the divide there is the one that separates good big-kit players and bad ones. Unfortunately there's a lot more consumers in the world than there are composers, so that approach dominates overwhelmingly. Worse, composers are trained more than they are born. So if you let your consumerism dominate at the time you're learning your instrument then you're arguably letting the composer inside shrink away and die when deciding which things you want to hit.

My earlier point being that percussionists are gear-oriented instrumentalists. If you've ever played percussion in orchestra, one of the first things you do when you get a new score is go around collecting all the instruments the composer wants. A lot of times a composer will use an instrument for just one beat of one measure (the infamous "count 100 measures of rest to hit a triangle once" saying).

Anyway. It comes down to, for me – the big kit player doesn't necessarily hear nuance, maybe he/she hears several distinct, loud notes. Or fourteen different pitches of splash cymbal, or lots of bass drum madness. It may not be my personal way of playing, but I think it's a little elitist to dismiss the musicality of that perspective.

finnhiggins

08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

Good points, Finn (and I'm totally guilty of buying gear "just in case" :) But…

My earlier point being that percussionists are gear-oriented instrumentalists. If you've ever played percussion in orchestra, one of the first things you do when you get a new score is go around collecting all the instruments the composer wants. A lot of times a composer will use an instrument for just one beat of one measure (the infamous "count 100 measures of rest to hit a triangle once" saying).

I'm really glad you raised percussionists, because I started writing a post in reply to one of your prior points about how all this stuff intersects with the different roles of classical percussionists, ethnic/world percussionists and so forth. I scrapped it because I was too tired and stupid to make sense. Essentially the "small kit" approach is closer to the ethnic/world percussion philosophy of making a musical statement with more articulations on less gear. The "big kit" aproach is closer to the classical/orchestral approach of using single instruments for their defined, separate voices.

Now, the obvious difference there is that the approach I'm describing as the big kit/classical one differs from the small kit/world type one in that the world percussion performer is a lot more responsible for what they play. They have a repetior of forms, "grooves" if you will, and they typically improvise around these in various structures. In a more orchestral environment every note is carefully mapped out, and relates directly to the wider music. As you mentioned, you may end up reading hundreds of bars of rests before you get to hit anything whatsoever because the composer doesn't give a damn about whether your hands are kept busy or not - their focus is the musical result.

Drumkit, historically, came up as a jazz instrument with a heavy influence from marching snare techniques. A lot of its conventions and assumptions come a form of music which was heavily improvisational, with a lot less focus on the arranged side of things. So drum kits were traditionally smaller, and drum playing was focused again around the idea of improvisation around a central key pattern.

Then we get rock playing, and its offshoot prog rock in the 70s, and the growth of giant kits into the 80s. The thing is, while the kits might have grown to orchestral proportions I don't think there's a very good argument that the playing has outgrown a large number of assumptions that relate more to smaller, more "ethnic" styles of playing that are a core part of where drumkit is coming from. I totally get the idea of using more instruments on a kit as part of a composed approach - hell, I DO it. If you go look at my kit in my thread it's certainly a lot larger than I am advocating here. That's basically down to the fact that my main band at the moment - which that kit goes with, plus and minus some bits and bobs now - takes a pretty large leaf from the film composition book. That stuff is in and of itself a combination of contemporary "groove oriented" playing and orchestral "noises at a particular time" playing, so to some degree I do need more gear. I'm trying to cover what I can with electronics, as I advocated below, but to some degree I need my gear to do what the primary composer of the band is intending.

With all that said, that stuff is written on a computer by another person and me with my composers head on. When I write that I'm not thinking about orchestrating rudiments, or about what positioning the things have on the kit. I'm instead thinking, composer-style, about what sound is going to go with each section and programming things accordingly. Then the process of adapting it to the kit is a bit more like learning a classical score. I have detailed, note-for-note charts for the stuff that happens in this band.

The vast majority of big kit playing, however, is nothing like this. It's basically the assumptions of small kits and marching players scaled up to a vast scale, and I don't think it's that worthy of comparison. I do my "big kit" playing on a much smaller kit than Mike Portnoy, but while his kit is an orchestral percussion section in scope I don't think his approach to parts and orchestration is particularly orchestral in its vision - it's more doing the "find myself a space in the music" thing that comes decended from folk percussion playing.

It's certainly something different and new, but I'd argue that it's a major change that's been drastically under-considered by a lot of people attempting it. Big-kit guys with an orchestral background like Bozzio I can see a bit more rationale behind, but I don't think many would argue that drum kits swelled as big as they did in the 70s and 80s in most cases because it was musically justified. It was just *possible* and *fashionable*, which I don't think are necessarily the best musical explanations for why you'd want to do something.