The Big Kits vs. Small Kits Debate

[MadJazz]

I think people who play small kits are trying to compensate for something!

What is small? Snare, kick, hats, ride, rack tom, floor tom, crash, cowbell... that's 8 instruments, on average two per limb.

[Deathmetalconga]

What is small? Snare, kick, hats, ride, rack tom, floor tom, crash, cowbell... that's 8 instruments, on average two per limb.

Relatively speaking, in terms of how the Western trap kit has evolved, that's considered small. Most people play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 drums, not counting cymbals or percussion.

[MadJazz]

Relatively speaking, in terms of how the Western trap kit has evolved, that's considered small. Most people play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 drums, not counting cymbals or percussion.

How come you're so sure about what most people use. Most drummers I see at venues and the studios I go, use 4-5 pc. And these aren't jazz venues. 4-5 pc are standard kits.

Small is a cocktail kit, a micro-size, a stripped street set..

6-8 is not mid-size to me, it's an expanded or large kit. Anything larger I consider huge.

[sticks660]

I use a 5 piece with a crash and ride. eaiser to load haul and setup at gigs.

[ChipJohns]

For me, I am glad that people use different size sets.

I really enjoy someone like Benny Greb using a small kit. Granted technically a Six piece set (if you count the extra snare, and the 16 floor,) but, more like a 4 piece the way he plays it. Or JoJo too. And, especially Peter Erskine..

But, I also like watching Carter Beaufort playing with his toy factory. - must be a 20 piece set. @;-) Or Neil Peart. Would RUSH have been the same if he had used a 4 piece set.? You may say he could have done it, and he could have.. fortunately Neil isn't narrow minded..

And then there is Keith Carlock in the middle with his 5/6 piece sets..

And, you can't say anything about Steve Smith. 7 piece if you count the extra snare.

Man, wouldn't it be boring if everyone used a 4 piece ... or a 6 piece ... or a 9 piece... ???

Thank God we see things differently. All these opinions stated in this thread is what makes music go round...

[Pollyanna]

The cool thing is that we don't play AN instrument, we play a bunch of them. Even my small kit still consists of seven instruments - hats, crash/ride, splash, kick, snare, tom and djembe. It's nice to have a palette of sounds to play with.

In the old days I used the crash/ride pretty well exclusively as a power crash because I had the choice of playing it or a ride or two crashes. Now I extract six sounds from it - ride ping, light bell ping, heavy bell ping, small crash (glancing blow), medium crash (mostly opening it up) and a big crash which fully opens it up (power crash). Small kits force you to get the most out of what you have.

It's different with toms for me. I am still only getting one sound out of my mone tom (Max Roach I ain't) and I now just play more time and fewer fills. Drummers who play music that asks for lots of fills, melodic playing or Africanisation tend to have big kits. So do guys who want to look spectacular; and some of those can use the kit well and some are more into showmanship.

[Deathmetalconga]

How come you're so sure about what most people use. Most drummers I see at venues and the studios I go, use 4-5 pc. And these aren't jazz venues. 4-5 pc are standard kits.

Small is a cocktail kit, a micro-size, a stripped street set..

6-8 is not mid-size to me, it's an expanded or large kit. Anything larger I consider huge.

I have seen hundreds of sets here over the years, and hundreds more in real life. I'd say at least half of them have 5 to 8 pieces and most of the rest have four pieces. The remainder - maybe 10 percent - have more than 8 pieces. These are the big sets or monster sets to me. I've seen a few four-piece sets with four and many, many cymbals. Are they really still small sets, even though they have six or more cymbals and percussion items, etc.?

A four-piece is considered a small kit. See the title of this thread. People here in the discussion are talking about four pieces and smaller as being small. There is no real definition of large, but I do not believe it is "you either play a small kit or a large kit." There is a middle ground, which is where most of us are.

Most people I have observed play mid-sized sets of 5 to 8 pieces (drums counted, nothing else).

[theindian]

I have a 9 piece (Ludiwg Classic Maple) kit with 13 cymbals ( mostly Paiste). The full kit usually only gets used in the Studio, promo pics, or personal enjoyment. Normally I keep half at my house for practice and the other half at my bands rehearsal space. I really like having a variety of sounds to choose from and also having different cymbals panned in different speakers. For live shows I use what i call the center core of the kit. A 5 piece w/ 7 cymbals is what mainly gets used. I don't use the full kit live for obvious reasons like: transporting it ,setting up, seeming pretentious and it would take half of the stage at some smaller venues. Its cool to be able to change setups for what ever I need.

[bamdrummer]

Personally, i like snare, bass, 2 up 2 down set up. Its a six piece but its not huge. I would prefer to have a lot of cymbals though...
I think that you should just use what feels right to you. Both sizes have their pros and cons and many great drummers have used both types. However, you wouldn't catch me lugging anything more than a six piece anywhere without some help ;)

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.


Cheers.

Couldn't agree more. I think the original poster must be hiding something to bring up the compensation card when discussing the size of someones drum kit. Please.

[MadJazz]

Couldn't agree more. I think the original poster must be hiding something to bring up the compensation card when discussing the size of someones drum kit. Please.

There is a compensation: crowded drums aren't comfortable. Let me explain.

Say I want two toms on the kick, then I have to move the ride to the far right or high above the toms. Sure you can reach the ride, but it's not comfortable and you won't play it with the same swining motion and the same feel as you would a ride hovering over the kick.

Say I place two toms in front of the snare and left to the kick. Sure I got two toms in front of me, easy to reach. But, I'll have to move the hi hat further away, stretching my legs. I'll also have to move the crash further / higher or risk hitting it every time I go wild on the toms.

And so on. I can add extra gear but I'm not willing to compromize the placement of the basic elements, being snare, kick, ride, hats, two toms, two crashes. That leaves very little options to place that extra gear. And a piece of gear that's not easy to reach, won't be played a lot and isn't worth bothering.

In addition, there's less tonal contrast between toms the more of them you add. It all sounds blurred if you overdo it. Same goes for cymbals: one or two effect cymbals are a nice touch but what's the point of four or more crashes. And if you spend money on spiral cymbals and what not, you might as well add a frying pan and kitchen tools.

I like keeping a few extra cymbals / snares / heads to produce different tonal colors from time to time. But you don't have to set it all up on the same set! If I were to add extra gear, it would be something that sounds radically different, like percussive elements (or that frypan). Not extra toms.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

You missed his intended used of the word "compensation" as if drummers with large kits had small "packages."

[Deathmetalconga]

Personally, i like snare, bass, 2 up 2 down set up. Its a six piece but its not huge. I would prefer to have a lot of cymbals though...
I think that you should just use what feels right to you. Both sizes have their pros and cons and many great drummers have used both types. However, you wouldn't catch me lugging anything more than a six piece anywhere without some help ;)

From what I've noticed, most people agree with you and play a kit of between 5, 6, 7, or 8 pieces. I call these mid-sized kits. People at either extreme have their reasons for playing big kits or small kits, as do the majority of us in the middle who play mid-sized kits.

[Moldy]

And sometimes, it just so happens people accumulate drums as they go through life. One might start with a 5 piece setup and want to experiment, add an extra 18" tom for that classic rock... but then again a smaller bass would make double bass sound more defined... and a second snare would give a good contrast....

Before you know it, you have a monster kit, if all set up at once.

As for the topic at hand, my 2 cents: It's not what you have but how you use it. If your kit makes you proud, makes you happy, makes you wanna rock out and play with more heart, then it's neither big nor small; it's perfect.

[MadJazz]

From what I've noticed, most people agree with you and play a kit of between 5, 6, 7, or 8 pieces. I call these mid-sized kits. People at either extreme have their reasons for playing big kits or small kits, as do the majority of us in the middle who play mid-sized kits.

When reading this, it sounds to me like "most people play between 2 and 20 piece kits and these are all mid size". Duh!

There's a big difference between 5 and 8 pieces. Your definition of mid size is so broad that it makes your statement too general to be valid.

[Deathmetalconga]

When reading this, it sounds to me like "most people play between 2 and 20 piece kits and these are all mid size". Duh!

There's a big difference between 5 and 8 pieces. Your definition of mid size is so broad that it makes your statement too general to be valid.

If you really think I'm saying "most people play between 2 and 20 piece kits and these are all mid size," then you have not been reading what I have been writing. To help you remember, I have said that in my view, kits of 5 to 8 pieces are mid size. From what I have viewed, the majority of kits fall in that range. I think some people have set up a small vs. big kits debate when, in reality, they majority of kits are neither so small nor so big, but from 5 to 8 pieces.

I have no idea what you mean when you say "There's a big difference between 5 and 8 pieces." Your definition of "big difference" is so broad that it makes your statement too general to be valid - at least to me. It would be presumptuous of me to claim that for others.

If you don't agree with my small-medium-large classification system I urge you to consider not using it, if you have not already done so. But it works for me and others who play these size sets, by gum!

[Drewbrew]

I've played on both and I've really enjoyed both but now that its time to get a new kit I can't decide what to get. I have owned an 8 piece and a four piece before. Please help me

[Grace :)]

personally i prefer a smaller kit - a 4 piece. But when I bought my new kit i bought a 5 piece kit which means i can take one rack tom away to get a 4 piece if i want a smaller kit or have the extra tom if i want something bigger. I also looked into kits which the makers of sold add on drums seperately, so if i ever wanted to expand the kit i could by the toms i wanted seperately later.

You could always buy a bigger kit and take some toms away now and then. or you could do it the other way and start with a smaller kit and expand later if you find yourself wanting more toms. Unless you can definitely decide that you do want a small kit or a large kit but only you will be able to decide that

[bobdadruma]

At one time I was at 10 pieces on my kit. I now play 5 pieces. The music that I play doesn't require more than that. I don't miss lugging all of that gear around for a big kit. I have even gone as far as to use a Rhythm Traveler for practice and small gigs so that I don't have to move my standard size 5 piece kit. I never find myself thinking, "I sure wish that I had my 10 piece kit again" Well, That's me!
What about you? What are your needs for a kit? Do you need the big kit? Do you miss the big kit and really want one again? If you buy a big kit are you going to have to move it frequently, Or are you going to keep it in your studio?

[warrier1]

depends on what kind of music you play, and what you want to carry, I know metal guys they have so much, they go 2 hrs before they start to set up, I dont have that time nor do I want to. I have a smaller Gretch Renoun 4 piece, being older i dont want to carry alot of stuff, and I figured if I cant get a 4 piece to work, more drum are not going to help, for me we do blues some rock and jazz in smaller clubs, got to play with the dynamics of the room, they can be loud when i want but when playing softer, there nice, guess you have to be the judge of what you want. Hope that helps.

[audiotech]

I play a lot of different venues with different bands, so three of my four kits are seven pieces. Most of the time I don't take all seven pieces to a gig, but when I want them, I have them. It's easier to let one or two drums back, than need a particular piece and not have it. When I have my kits set up at home, I set all seven pieces up just to stay on top of playing the larger kits. It's great exercise.

Dennis

[caddywumpus]

Get a big kit! You can always set it up in your house and have a blast playing around all of the toms. When you have a gig, take only what you want from it. I would suggest getting an 18" floor tom so you could convert it to a kick drum.

My DW kit is 10/12/14/16/22. I bought an 18" tom and converted it to a kick drum, so now I have options. When I take it to the studio or (rarely) to gigs, I can either take a 12/16/22 setup or a 10/14/18 setup. My gigging kit is my Ludwig Downbeat (12/14/20), which is extremely versatile in its sound/tuning range as well.

I guess you have to ask yourself what you want. Options in tom sizes? Kick sizes? How many snares? As for me, I'm very fortunate to have the funds and house space to have options.

FYI, there are threads on this already, and usually what happens is someone who prefers a (big/small) makes a snide comment about the other sized kit, and a debate breaks out about creativity when using a small kit. Hopefully this thread stays civil...

[Deathmetalconga]

I've played on both and I've really enjoyed both but now that its time to get a new kit I can't decide what to get. I have owned an 8 piece and a four piece before. Please help me

Most people mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. Try that on for size.

[dairyairman]

i have a 6 piece kit but i've never played a show with all 6 pieces. sometimes i'll set it up as a 4 piece. other times i'll set it up as a 5 piece. i'll use either the 14" or 16" floor tom depending on where i'm playing and what type of music. it gives me a lot of flexibility.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Add me to the 'bigger kit' list. I'm another example of one who has a 6 piece kit but always used a 4 or occasionally 5 piece config when gigging. I always enjoyed the variety of being able to pick and choose to suit the job.

You can turn a big kit into a little kit, but it'll cost you more to go the other way.

[alparrott]

+1 for owning a bigger kit. I have no qualms about breaking up my 8-tom kit into a 4 or 5-piece depending on the gig and the size of the room. And I enjoy the simplicity of the small kit for just punching in a groove and playing around. But I love playing my huge kit and wringing hundreds of different sounds out of it.

[Dedworx]

i have a 6 piece kit but i've never played a show with all 6 pieces. sometimes i'll set it up as a 4 piece. other times i'll set it up as a 5 piece. i'll use either the 14" or 16" floor tom depending on where i'm playing and what type of music. it gives me a lot of flexibility.

hi, i would agree with checking that out drewbrew.

i play a 4 piece now, when i eventually save for an upgrade i'll probably go the way of the above post also.

[groovemaster_flex]

do you gig or is this for home?

with a small kit, it's easier to take apart and drag to gigs

however, with big kit, you have the option of moving it down to a smaller kit...

i'd probably go with a big kit, just so you have options

naw mean?

[Dave_Major]

I'm currently saving up for a new tama starclassic kit and it will be huge! But purely so I can pick and choose what the gig requires and take that.

The kit i am getting will be as follows

BD
22x18
20x16

Toms
10x8
12x9
13x10
14x12

Floors
14x14
16x16

Snares (which i already have)

14x4 maple piccollo
12x5.5 steel
14x5.5 steel
14x5.5 old premier thing which is beech or birch I don't know which.

also have 2 full cymbal bags of stuff which does me what ever I need.(but i need to get a lighter jazz ride)

From this kit I can create whatever I need

A jazz gig would require the 20/10/14fl. A rock gig would require a normal rock kit.
I currently don't have the options to pick and choose which is what I want.

If you can afford it go big and then downsize as required.

Dave

[mike talbot]

A small kit forces you to be more creative because you have less to work with. And if you play a lot of shows you get tired of hauling around all that "extra" stuff. Drumming is about groove first and foremost. A snare, bass drum and hihat will take you a long way.

[Brundlefly]

A small kit forces you to be more creative because you have less to work with. And if you play a lot of shows you get tired of hauling around all that "extra" stuff. Drumming is about groove first and foremost. A snare, bass drum and hihat will take you a long way.

This is why the NSA monitors the airwaves for signs of a band made up of a drummer with nothing but a snare drum, a one-string guitarist, a keyboardist with only a one-octave keyboard and monotone singer. The shear amount of creativity that would result from that level of restriction can never be aloud to exist in a confined space because it might spawn an alternate universe which could, in theory, collide with ours and kill us all.

Btw, what if a person is already maximally creative, or even just reasonably creative? Or, maybe they just don't have a problem where they feel like they need to be "forced" to be more creative in the first place? Then can they have a bigger kit?

Silliness...

[eddiehimself]

A small kit forces you to be more creative because you have less to work with. And if you play a lot of shows you get tired of hauling around all that "extra" stuff. Drumming is about groove first and foremost. A snare, bass drum and hihat will take you a long way.

Yeah, but it doesn't take you all the way. And for many drummers it's that last little bit that makes the difference. Also i agree with BF here. Why does creativity have to come out under duress? Okay it worked for mcgyver but people are different. Just because someone has a little kit doesn't mean they're going to be more "creative".

[Thaard]

I feel that with smaller kits, you got more restrictions which can make you playing more creative. If youre not playing world grooves or other stuff that requires alot of different sounding drums, theres no use in having lots of toms and octobans.

[yesdog]

Its not the sword its the swordsman.

[Brundlefly]

...If youre not playing world grooves or other stuff that requires alot of different sounding drums, theres no use in having lots of toms and octobans.

Really? You tried and couldn't come up with anything? Perhaps you aren't getting quite the creative boost from that smaller kit as you thought.

[jake_larson]

I think that with whatever size kit you use, use the entire kit. I have seen many drummers who get massive kits and take the time to set everything up only to use the snare hat and bass. For me I prefer a mid size kit like steve smith or gavin harrison

[thtst]

Its not the sword its the swordsman.

+1..............................

[Random Name 123]

A smaller kit CAN help with creativity - if a drummer lacks that extra creative spark and needs a bit of encouragment to come up with new ideas, then dismantling some of his kit can do wonders. That's because it's all too easy on a big kit to radically change the sound of a groove by switching hands to a tom or different cymbal, making it sound fresher but not really changing the beat. I'm no drumming guru, but I come up with some nice ideas sometimes and it's normally always when I revert to the bass-snare-hats format and not allow myself to use anything else.

[Pollyanna]

I'm no drumming guru, but I come up with some nice ideas sometimes and it's normally always when I revert to the bass-snare-hats format and not allow myself to use anything else.

Right on, Al. Rather than big vs small kits, changing your setup around occasionally - either adding, subtracting or moving stuff around - is a great way to pull fresh ideas out of you. Better still, it's fun.

If you're not in a serious band with roadies I think older drummers tend towards a smaller kit because:

1. Less energy and motivation to do all the steup/down and lugging work required

2. Less likely to have friends who are prepared to help out so they can get involved in the excitement of gigs

3. Less spare cash because of family commitments

4. Less room in the home to put the kit as kids/family eat up the space.

5. The music they play is often less about the "wow factor" because the chance to "make it" has passed.

Obviously #3 and #4 can go the other way if you have a highly paid day job, but #1 and #2 are the big issues, at least to me.

I do feel I've lost something in moving to a very small kit - especially since I've always loved playing Africanised beats on the toms- but the compensation is that I've had to become more resourceful and learnt a couple of new skills through necessity.

[Random Name 123]

Ain't it weird? If I added a rack tom to my 3-piece I'd fret about it being far too much!

This is mainly down to my favourite drummer (Alan) using a 3-piece though and me being a wannabe.

[Pollyanna]

Ain't it weird? If I added a rack tom to my 3-piece I'd fret about it being far too much!

This is mainly down to my favourite drummer (Alan) using a 3-piece though and me being a wannabe.

How extravagant of you, Al! Shame shame shame!! What sort of megalomaniac would want to swan around showing off with a gigantic four-piece kit? :)

"Alan"? I'm confused. You don't mean Tony Allen - the guy you taked about in the other thread - do you? From memory, he had three toms, didn't he? Yeah, I'm confused ... but if you mean Tony Allen then I fully understand why you'd be a wannabe. Me too.

[Brundlefly]

A smaller kit CAN help with creativity - if a drummer lacks that extra creative spark and needs a bit of encouragment to come up with new ideas, then dismantling some of his kit can do wonders...

You are talking about change and change works both ways. I have a 5 piece and a monster kit, and I go back and forth between them all the time. Neither is more prone to creative sparks than the other. Changing either can have an effect on generating new ideas, but the actual size isn't a factor.

I think there are a lot of great reasons for using a specific size kit, but this "x-size kits make you more or less creative" argument is pure spew.

[Random Name 123]

How extravagant of you, Al! Shame shame shame!! What sort of megalomaniac would want to swan around showing off with a gigantic four-piece kit? :)

"Alan"? I'm confused. You don't mean Tony Allen - the guy you taked about in the other thread - do you? From memory, he had three toms, didn't he? Yeah, I'm confused ... but if you mean Tony Allen then I fully understand why you'd be a wannabe. Me too.

Haha. What an idiot, forgot to write the second name. Tony Allen of course is a big influence of mine, but I did mean Alan Wren - here's a heads up incase you don't know him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwQG7fue84

The music might not be your thing, but the drumming is funky & tight.

[Deathmetalconga]

This is why the NSA monitors the airwaves for signs of a band made up of a drummer with nothing but a snare drum, a one-string guitarist, a keyboardist with only a one-octave keyboard and monotone singer. The shear amount of creativity that would result from that level of restriction can never be aloud to exist in a confined space because it might spawn an alternate universe which could, in theory, collide with ours and kill us all.

Btw, what if a person is already maximally creative, or even just reasonably creative? Or, maybe they just don't have a problem where they feel like they need to be "forced" to be more creative in the first place? Then can they have a bigger kit?

Silliness...

HAHAHA! Just about fell out of my chair reading that.

You are right. Playing a small kit doesn't make you more or less creative. It just means you play a small kit. And that you secretly wish to be mistaken for a jazz drummer.

[justjim]

I think "it depends"

now, admittedly I'm biased as I'm a heterosexual male

but I say (now, admittedly I'm biased as I'm a heterosexual male)

Gents - larger kilts
Fems - smaller kilts

[Thaard]

I think "it depends"

now, admittedly I'm biased as I'm a heterosexual male

but I say (now, admittedly I'm biased as I'm a heterosexual male)

Gents - larger kilts
Fems - smaller kilts

So you're calling Jojo Mayer, Benny Greb and many other drummers effeminate poofs? Then I say, Big kits are for people trying to compensate for something downstairs.

[justjim]

So you're calling Jojo Mayer, Benny Greb and many other drummers effeminate poofs? .

nope!
reread my post more carefully

[MadJazz]

This is why the NSA monitors the airwaves for signs of a band made up of a drummer with nothing but a snare drum, a one-string guitarist, a keyboardist with only a one-octave keyboard and monotone singer...

Silliness...

Silly remark because a drum set is a collection of separate instruments whereas a six string guitar is a complete instrument.

[justjim]

ooh that's a tough one - I mean the guitar is one of those instruments whose design is pretty fluid (yup, even one string guitar)


and the guitar crowd has some of that same "oh that's too many strings and is a distraction" v "it really gets back to the funadmentals" v "oh it extends may range" v "limits can help with the character"

type discussions

[Random Name 123]

HAHAHA! Just about fell out of my chair reading that.

You are right. Playing a small kit doesn't make you more or less creative. It just means you play a small kit. And that you secretly wish to be mistaken for a jazz drummer.

Rubbish. Of course a small kit CAN force a drummer to try new things. Imagine it - an intermediate drummer, been playing for 18 months, has a half decent but limited array of techniques on the drums. Big kit - he can change the sound of his beats just by moving his hands to any of the toms, playing in a more tribal style but not really discovering anything new. Small kit? Doesn't have that option, so it might encourage said drummer to develop lineal grooves, for instance. I know this first hand.

And whoever changed my name, thanks for notifying me.

[Deathmetalconga]

Rubbish. Of course a small kit CAN force a drummer to try new things. Imagine it - an intermediate drummer, been playing for 18 months, has a half decent but limited array of techniques on the drums. Big kit - he can change the sound of his beats just by moving his hands to any of the toms, playing in a more tribal style but not really discovering anything new. Small kit? Doesn't have that option, so it might encourage said drummer to develop lineal grooves, for instance. I know this first hand.

And whoever changed my name, thanks for notifying me.

Agreed, a small kit might have that creative effect on some people. But so might a large kit, where someone just plays a few things from it at a time (finding the many small kit configurations hidden inside a large kit).

Again, a small kit doesn't necessarily make you any more creative or any more limited. It just means you play a small kit. That is all. Ditto for a large kit.

Anyway, the majority of drummers play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. It's fun to argue about big vs. small kits, but most people find their own comfort zone somewhere in the middle.

[Brundlefly]

Silly remark because a drum set is a collection of separate instruments whereas a six string guitar is a complete instrument.

Well yeah, silliness was the point (you can tell by the part where I wrote the word "silliness").

That said, I think both of your assertions are debatable. The Presidents of the United States certainly didn't consider 6 strings requisite for completeness. And you could say that while the drum kit started as a collection of separate instruments, few people treat it, play it or recognize it as such these days. I, for one, have always viewed it as one "big" configurable instrument.

Anyway, the larger point here is that people tend to mistake their own personal solutions for panaceas.

[Pollyanna]

Haha. What an idiot, forgot to write the second name. Tony Allen of course is a big influence of mine, but I did mean Alan Wren - here's a heads up incase you don't know him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umwQG7fue84

The music might not be your thing, but the drumming is funky & tight.

Yep, the song sounds perfectly complete played with a tiny kit. I admit to being disappointed because I was hoping for another fabulous Tony Allen (5 piece kit) link *hint hint*

It goes back to Yesdog's earlier comment about it not about about the sword but the swordsman - or stickswoman ... um, "swordswoman" doesn't sound right.

And Thaard, you can't knock effeminate gays. Our singer used to do drag shows and he's an excellent vocalist and a wonderful human being ... but he wouldn't be at home behind a drum set, even a small one like mine :)

Brundle, I don't see too many panaceas on offer here, but plenty of personal biases ... but hey, we love our kits :)

I've tended to feel confused when I played big kits. The toms keep calling me and then I find myself drawn into that terrible big-kit-newbie vortex and find myself playing those standard runs down the toms. The cool thing about big kits would be working out different combinations more than just going boogidy-boogidy-boom down the toms. Trouble is, it can be hard to reach some of the middle-to-low toms to ride on or use as the basis of a rhythm. Granted, going boogidy-boogidy-boom down a line of toms is pretty good fun. Not so much fun that it's worth the extra lug to me.

And you gotta just about be Pythogoras to work out how to place everything so you can really use the pieces rather than have half the kit only played as passing notes. I find it hard enough to place things just right with a 4-piece (including djembe) - lol

[rogue_drummer]

I just used a standard 4 piece kit last night at a rehearsal. Our bass player couldn't make it so the remaining 3 of us - lead, rhythm, drums - decided to do a modified rehearsal at the lead's house. Logisitics and space required I use a smaller kit. I used my hats, ride and a small crash. I actually had a great time playing my smaller kit, which I hadn't done in a while. It forced me to be more creative, which got me approving nods from the other two guys.

[Morbid Koala]

Doing more with less is my definition of a great drummer.

Two toms, a snare and a kick: show me what you can do.

Even Stewart Copeland said the reason his kit eventually got bigger was because he had roadies. If he was still touring in a van like it was 1978, he'd still be playing a 5-piece.

When I see some guy with a kit that would take up the entire stage at almost any small club, I see a guy who probably doesn't play out much. I also see a guy who is playing for himself and not for the band or song.

But it's a free country, go crazy. Do as you wish. Lord knows the drum companies need cats like that now more than ever.

[Brundlefly]

Doing more with less is my definition of a great drummer.

Two toms, a snare and a kick: show me what you can do.

Even Stewart Copeland said the reason his kit eventually got bigger was because he had roadies. If he was still touring in a van like it was 1978, he'd still be playing a 5-piece.

When I see some guy with a kit that would take up the entire stage at almost any small club, I see a guy who probably doesn't play out much. I also see a guy who is playing for himself and not for the band or song.

But it's a free country, go crazy. Do as you wish. Lord knows the drum companies need cats like that now more than ever.

Excellent. There's just no room for the possibility of a large kit player who plays out often or contributes to a band in a musical way. The point of a large kit can only be to keep drum shops busy with some filler work.

And I here I was worried about not being able to fill my "small kit ultra-snobbery presumption" file.

[diosdude]

Doing more with less is my definition of a great drummer.

Two toms, a snare and a kick: show me what you can do.

.

Anything you can do on your little set, I can do on my monster kit. Only better. I can do all kinds of tasteful fills that are appropriate to my music that you can't even attempt on your little kit.

My definition of a great drumer is one that can rule on a drumset, either large or small. My definition of a lesser drummer is one that precludes possibilities due to the size of their kit.

[wy yung]

This thread is an interesting read. Although I only got through 3 pages.

My drum kit is entirely dependent upon the music being played. If I need timbales, I'll add them. If I need a conga, I'll add it.

If I'm playing a cover gig or something similar, I'll use a 4 piece with 2 ride cymbals and hats. Mainly because I don't want to carry a lot of gear and spend ages setting up.


Simple.

[bobdadruma]

This thread is still going! Oh Well! Why Not!
Tom Angles can't have all of the glory!

[Morbid Koala]

Anything you can do on your little set, I can do on my monster kit. Only better. I can do all kinds of tasteful fills that are appropriate to my music that you can't even attempt on your little kit.


Oh, noz.

Better check down my shorts to make sure I'm still a man.

God knows a serious lack of octobans will make you look like you've spent all day in cold water.

[DSCRAPRE]

I currently feel like my Bonham-style five piece with hats, a crash and a ride, is getting a little rediculous. I personally feel that a small kit seems alot more intimate. The player is more vulnerable I think that seems like a good thing. But I like Peart and Bozzio, so, nothing against big kits, just not for me.

[eddiehimself]

Oh, noz.

Better check down my shorts to make sure I'm still a man.

God knows a serious lack of octobans will make you look like you've spent all day in cold water.

Wow what a counter argument. He talks about the fill possibilities of a big kit and all you can come back with is saying he has a small knob?

[Deathmetalconga]

Excellent. There's just no room for the possibility of a large kit player who plays out often or contributes to a band in a musical way. The point of a large kit can only be to keep drum shops busy with some filler work.

And I here I was worried about not being able to fill my "small kit ultra-snobbery presumption" file.

I have always said that people who consciously play small kits are trying to compensate for something. They want people to mistake them for jazz drummers, or they are desperate to send a very loud message that they have great chops and only needs a four piece, or they want to avoid the suspicion they bought their kit on Craigslist. "Whoa, that dude plays a four piece! He must be really good. Serious stuff."

Playing a small kit doesn't mean you are more talented, less talented, better, worse, dumber or smarter than someone who plays a larger kit. It just means you play a small kit. That is all.

Most people play mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces anyway. Personally, i think bigger is better- look at this thread, for instance!

[Ainulindale]

My definition of a great drumer is one that can rule on a drumset, either large or small

good definition, like any instrument, drums are about skill, we all have it in varying degree's...

i have been playing a 3 peice lately, snare, bass and floor tom - i suck, i realize i do and i realize that the more things i have to distract me, the sloppier i get - so i have been keeping it simple lately...

i will say though, like several others have - nothing worse than a less than talented drummer playing an 8 peice kit, you just feel bad - sometimes more for the drums than the drummer ;-)

[caddywumpus]

I can't believe this thread is still going strong! It should be clear that there's NO debate here, but it's a matter of personal preference.

For me, it's a matter of practicality. You know what they say, "The smaller the kit..."

...the less time it takes to set up and tear down!

...the fewer trips back and forth from the car!

...the less expensive the head changes!

...the smaller the vehicle you can take them in!

...the less time you spend tuning!

[bonzolead]

good definition, like any instrument, drums are about skill, we all have it in varying degree's...

i have been playing a 3 peice lately, snare, bass and floor tom - i suck, i realize i do and i realize that the more things i have to distract me, the sloppier i get - so i have been keeping it simple lately...

i will say though, like several others have - nothing worse than a less than talented drummer playing an 8 peice kit, you just feel bad - sometimes more for the drums than the drummer ;-)
Absolutely I you can't. play a 4-piece what makes you think you're gonna play a 9-piece or whatever piece LOL

Go ahead and bring in your 20 piece stage covering kits that take a hour too set up, I'll be the one @ the bar talking with my friends hugging the girls and saying man that guy must be a good drummer only good drummers have 20 piece kits that's why I have a 4-piece kit because i'm a terrible drummer LMAO. oh that's sarcasm by the way i'm a great drummer.

Bonzolead

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

This has turned into a very interesting thread all.

What's ultimately clear is that there is no right choice other than your choice.....as it should be. As John Lennon said, 'whatever get's you through the night, is alright'.
However, it's also apparent that said choices draw a lot of passion for debate.from both camps. Personally I'd gig with a smaller kit, but that's purely because I'm a lazy bugger these days. Like many others here, the older I get, the smaller the kit! I do set it all up when I can at home though.

It indeed comes down to the player. A good drummer can make a cardboard box sound musical....a bad player makes a 10 peice sound like cardboard boxes.

Thanks for the read!!

[Morbid Koala]

Wow what a counter argument. He talks about the fill possibilities of a big kit and all you can come back with is saying he has a small knob?

Now I'll have you know I was referring to my own tiny guy.

It's kind of funny in a way. Both sides are both espousing the same philosophy except that some folks see the 4-piece kit as the template while some people see a Terry Bozzio kit as the template.

The 'ability to do more' is the core philosophy for both sides. I believe that's where you will find the unifying factor for this whole discourse.

Either you do more with less or you do more with more.

Whatever music you happen to be playing is strictly personal taste. You're the one who knows the best kit, the best roll and ultimately the right compisition for the music you're playing to.

Lord knows the reason I don't like Dream Theatre isn't because he has a big drum kit.

It's the music and even I know that a 4-piece kit wouldn't enhance the listening pleasure for me, their fans and especially the music they play.

It's ultimately the right kit for the right band who hopefully has the right drummer.

[crazyjake19]

I'm just not as comfortable with a larger kit. I love my 4 piece setup, with 2 crashes, 1 ride, and 1 splash. Perfect for me.

Easier to setup/take down, easier to transport, to take care of and clean, less heads to replace and tune. Plus it forces creativity, both with original ideas, as well as covers. Re-working some of Neil Peart's stuff onto a kit with just one rack tom and one floor tom can be interesting.

[BassDriver]

What about Grant Collins?

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200809/r295445_1270207.jpg

Biggest kit in the southern hemi-sphere, but seriously too big, I know Grant can use it very well, but six bass drums is drawing the line and going beyond it just to spite it.

This guy started to play drums at 19 (relatively old compared to the modern drumming greats), imagine how good I would get at his age considering I got my first kit at 12.

...but hey drummers like Buddy Rich used small kits and were awesome.

[theindian]

To all of the players who use large or monster kits: Do you use everything you have when you play out? I have a large/mid size kit 8 piece Ludwig Classic Maple, 4 crashes, 2 hats, 2 rides, chinas, and splashes. Thats the full kit which is used mostly for recording or jamming around at home if I have some free time. My nomal live kit is a little smaller. I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about using a 4 piece, double pedal, 2 crash, 1 hi-hat, ride, and cymbal stackers for the splash and chinas. I use everything I have and like the different sounds they add to the music, but it has become too much to load in and out all the time. Plus at the smaller gigs my kit takes up half the stage. I can still pull off the tunes just as well with the smaller set.

Pros for smaller live set: Less gear to lug around, takes up less space on stage, quicker setup/tear down time. my playing seems more focused b/c of less drums, maybe?

Cons: Have to change 4 tom fills down to 2,same with cymbals, Kit is less impressive looking to people (subjective)

Any thoughts?

[diddle]

I love small kits... I have a micro kit w/ 16" bass, another with 18" bass, and my "big" kit with 22" bass... I love them all and they sound & feel so different from each other.

Let's face it, folks... choosing a kit to play out has as much to do with functionality (i.e. what you need for the songs) as it does to do with what statement you want to make... just like choosing what cloths you want to wear or what car you want to be seen driving in...

[Funky Crêpe]

i use a small 4 piece kit because it forces me to be creative, i find that if i use a bigger kit, i tend to use the same old things over and over again but on different drums, i think it helps me and will benefit me in the long run if i keep using the small kit. it also teaches me to come up with different patterns, ect.

i dont think players who use smaller kits have any reason to be smug, now if someone says to me "Why dont you use a bigger kit, your so stupid" i will act smug, saying that i have more skill to do so, but thats just because they started it!!

it's all a matter of what you want to get out of the drums, many people would be dumbstruck at having to use a huge kit

[Deathmetalconga]

If this thread were a drum kit, it would be the biggest monster set ever.

Short threads force me to be more creative. Long threads are just too much to read - does anyone ever read all that?

[diddle]

yeah, I agree with ya, Bosphorus... it can be more challenging to play a small kit... just the opposite of what non-drummers seem to think...

[Ian Williams]

If this thread were a drum kit, it would be the biggest monster set ever.

Short threads force me to be more creative. Long threads are just too much to read - does anyone ever read all that?

I agree on that, Death.....The shorter the better - The longer the boring. Nobody spends that time to read that volume, time is life.

[Random Name 123]

I use a three piece. - two rack toms, bass drum and three splash cymbals.

Nah I'm kidding - snare, bass, floor tom, hi-hat, ride & crash. I love it - I wouldn't feel comfortable on a big kit because the style I've worked out for myself is basically funk shuffles and grooves with varying mini-fills and beat variations. Not so much rolls down the toms or crashes off every cymbal, just little hits on the bell of the ride, hi-hat barks and maybe a big 'BOOM' off the deeply tuned floor tom at the end of a shuffly interim.

I have no problem with kits up to about seven or eight pieces, but after that (especially if cymbals follow suit and there ends up being ten drums and also ten cymbals) it gets a bit much. To me it seems almost pointless.

I make no attempt to hide the fact that I want people to think I'm a great drummer - no harm in that. And I reckon making a small kit sound like a big kit with a great sense of dynamics is a good way to make that happen.

Still some way to go before I achieve that yet, however.

[sqadan]

I'm kinda new here... so I'll chime in on this little discussion...

I have used nothing but 4 piece kits since I was 18 years old. That was 18 years ago. Before that I was a 5 piece guy and I was really big on having lots of cymbals... splashes, china 3 crashes in dif. sizes etc.

Now? 1 up 1 down, hats 2 crashes and ride. I still occasionally break out the china for my own enjoyment at home... but never on a gig. I have become a FAR more musical and intuitive player since I dumped all the extra pies and the extra tom.

Folks who say smaller kits are limiting well.... that's just an opinion... i have found using a smaller kit the most liberating thing I ever did for my playing. I far prefer having a small selection of quality instruments to play on.

Less is more in my case for sure.

[funkytomtom]

I like switching between the extremes. The biggest my kit has ever been is four toms, snare, bass, timbales, two crashes, splash, ride, hi-hats. I've been playing on a four piece with two rides and a set of hi-hats though for at least the last two years. Sometimes I'll take off the toms and one ride and groove out to some James Brown...FUN! I think it says a lot if you can groove HARD with just the essentials. That being said, if you can use the extra options and texture that come from a big kit, more power to you! Obviously there is no "better" size set up, but one consideration for me is how quickly I can tear-down and make contact with female audience members (if there are any...haha).

[danduffy1964]

Been using a small kit for nearly 20 yrs..in the 80's , it was all about power toms,racks,& a ton of cymbals..Today, my kit is stripped down (like most) ..1 rack up front..2 floor..3 crash 1 ride.. Easier to load in & out.

[Concrete Pete]

Hey Crew,

I can actually comment on this subject right now, as I just banged the hell outta my new 9-piece MONSTER kit tonight in my garage. I'll be selling off about 3-4 pieces of the set when I get done with my fantasy jamming on the biggest kit I've ever had.

Yeah, a huge kit is fun. It's awesome. It's so friggin' cool to be surrounded by drums and cymbals.
BUT.......

Now the cold truth-- NOT effective for doing gigs. (Unless you're Van Halen) NOT practical. Takes up WAY too much room. How often can you strike 6 different toms to warrant owning them? What size vehicle would you have to own to lug that stuff around?

I'm agreeing on the "less is more" syndrome. YES, I'll beat the sh!t outta this monster drumkit, but it's a NOVELTY, and just for a few days.

Then I get back to "being real".

Cheers Crew,
C. P.

[Spence]

I used to be all about the big kit. Now I play 5 (2 snares, 2 toms, bass).

I find that it makes me play things I like to hear. Don't know why. Maybe my mind is more focused on the smaller kit or something.

Not set up all my toms in years. I will one day though.

[drummer70]

I still prefer a big kit. However, just because it's there doesn't mean you have to always use all of it. It all depends on what I'm playing. If I'm playing Rush, or anything else with a lot of big tom fills, I use my entire kit. If I'm playing Jazz, I only use 2 or 3 toms and that's it. I think you kit should fit your style and what you play. Watching someone trying to cover Rush on a 4 piece looks just as ridiculous as some one dragging out a 9 piece to a jazz gig and not using more than two of the toms and two crashes, the hats, and ride.

I've played both big kits and 4 piece kits. I've personally found that while a big kit allows you to be more creative than a 4 piece ever can, the 4 piece forces you to be more creative than a big kit ever will. While I do have a VERY big kit, I have NEVER gigged with anything bigger than a 7 piece because you really CAN cover everything with 5 toms no matter what it is.

[drummer70]

do you gig or is this for home?

with a small kit, it's easier to take apart and drag to gigs

however, with big kit, you have the option of moving it down to a smaller kit...

i'd probably go with a big kit, just so you have options

naw mean?

That's EXACTLY why I have a big kit! When I'm downstairs practicing, I play a little bit of everything, so I actually DO use my entire kit, given I don't use the entire kit on every song I play. I just use what ever fits the song I'm playing, then on to the next song. I play some stuff that the bass and snare are the only drums I use. I subtract and add without physically removing anything from the kit at all. With that said, I still don't drag the entire kit around for gigs... TOO much work there!!!

[mrchattr]

I was going to start a new thread, since this really isn't about this debate, but then I thought, "nah, it'll just turn into this debate anyway, even though that's not my intention."

I used to play a huge kit. Huge. Then I started shrinking all the way down to my current 4 piece set up, though I still have my monster kit, but it's not even set up. Clearly, it is a matter of personal choice, and there is no right or wrong. But what I find interesting is that I don't even enjoy looking at monster kits any more, even when they are top of the line. That's not to say I don't appreciate the drumming done on them (if it's good), or anything like that. But even after going the small kit route, I used to see a nice big shiny monster kit and love it. Now, I look at them, and it's like looking at a nice guitar...it's something I can appreciate, but really have no desire for at all...I appreciate it almost as a different type of instrument than I do other small kits. It was weird to realize that.

[Cuauhtemoc]

It's not a problem if the big kit user actually uses the kit. Some say that you can do it all on a 4 piece and that's true to a certain degree. There are types of music that need more sounds. Not necessarily 50 toms but let's face it, a 6 inch tom does not sound like a 16 inch floor tom. A china cymbal does not sound like a splash.

There are extremes on both sides of the debate. If the kit's being used, then fine.

[DSCRAPRE]

What bugs me is when beginners (like me) and non-drummers think that the size of a person's kit = amount of skill. I always wondered in my younger days why any professional would use a 4 or 5 piece kit whan they could afford a Neil Peart setup. After I tried a friend's monster double bass kit, I knew why. Just too much stuff I got all distracted. I'm happy with my 1 up 2 down setup. Big sound not big size for me.

[Moldy]

I find that the overwhelming sense of "too much" only kicks in if you've gone from a relatively average sized setup immediately to a monster sized kit. If you added to your own kit about one drum/cymbal every six months or so, given five-ish years you'd have a monster set and yet know why you bought each piece, how you incorporate it into your grooves and where it is in your kit. You'd have built the muscle memory by building slowly.

[sdf54]

I'll chime in. Like many started bigger and slowly stripped down to the point at which I was playing gigs with a converted 18inch floor tom as my kick with one piccolo snare, hats, and one crash/ride. Stripped down. But I just bought a cocktail kit (Trixon in the USA) and I notice that while it's easy to transport to gigs and it takes up a little less space than the stripped kit, the range of sounds I can get out of it is very impressive (because it gives me, basically two toms, kick, snare). So I think I've got the best of both worlds right now. I'm stripped down but I have more textures.

sdf

[genericdrummingusername]

At home, I use a 5-piece with lots of appointments, like a second snare and a mini-Timbale, so that's 7 total.

Playing out, however, I use a Travis Barker-style setup (don't judge me...my admiration of him ends at setup aesthetics), and 4 pieces with a few good cymbals and a double kick pedal is all I need.

All the extra stuff at home is mainly to stave off boredom.

[pirate]

I like small kits. But Jack Dejohnette has a big kit that he uses very well.

[ccsimms]

i believe one should use whatever kit is necessary for the style or gig. i definitely don't recommend showin up to a jazz gig at a club with a 12 piece... haha

[protestthedrummer]

personally i love both big and small kits. I love to play smaller kits because there is less to focus on and when I am working with my band I can zone in on what everyone is doing. (very important) with a big kit its easier to go off and do stuff of the beat and time like Gavin harrison. When I do drum solo stuff or just fool around I play my 6 piece. But with my band I strip it down to a 4 piece. It helps a lot. I like both sides of the coin.

[shrink]

Im not a fan of the crazy huge kits. It seems to me, that it just creates too many choices.

I know the argument will be "how can you have too many choices", but i think that you can needlessly overcomplicate things, to a point where it gets in the way of what your trying to achieve.

I run an average/medium sized kit comprising:

-6 piece kit (4 toms, bass drum, snare)
-hi hats
-2 crashes (either side of the rack toms)
-1 ride (over floor tom)
-1 splash (between crashes and above rack toms)
-2 octobans (if i can ever get them mounted)

At the very most, i think i would add:

-1 larger crash (i have two 16's of varying thicknesses)
-1 smaller splash (i love my 10" avedis, but would like something faster brighter and trashier)
-1 china (no idea how id use it at this stage, but its forseeable that id fancy one someday)
-1 extra floor tom (i run a 3 up 1 down setup, would like 2 down.

Thats as far as id ever go, and thats still what id consider a pretty average setup. Not into the realms of crazy.

[Random Name 123]

Im not a fan of the crazy huge kits. It seems to me, that it just creates too many choices.

I know the argument will be "how can you have too many choices", but i think that you can needlessly overcomplicate things, to a point where it gets in the way of what your trying to achieve.

I run an average/medium sized kit comprising:

-6 piece kit (4 toms, bass drum, snare)
-hi hats
-2 crashes (either side of the rack toms)
-1 ride (over floor tom)
-1 splash (between crashes and above rack toms)
-2 octobans (if i can ever get them mounted)

At the very most, i think i would add:

-1 larger crash (i have two 16's of varying thicknesses)
-1 smaller splash (i love my 10" avedis, but would like something faster brighter and trashier)
-1 china (no idea how id use it at this stage, but its forseeable that id fancy one someday)
-1 extra floor tom (i run a 3 up 1 down setup, would like 2 down.

Thats as far as id ever go, and thats still what id consider a pretty average setup. Not into the realms of crazy.


Huge for me mate. But then I only use three drums and three cymbals. I'm very happy with what I can get out of it though, and when I start gigging it should be nice and easy to set up!

[bonzolead]

Until I get roadies, I'll stay 4-piece that's the bottom line.

Keep Swattin',
Bonzolead

[Big Foot]

I love my bop kit w/ 3 cymbals, that's enough for me.

However, when I do find myself behind a big kit - I have to admit, it's a lot of fun.

[zakhopper316]

hey all, so i know i can be really argumentative at times but i just have to say..well first off
nothing personal
any way i have got to say i am so so sick of people with large drum kits, i mean really?
do we really need to act like Neil Peart? and its even worse when they cant even play a 4
piece well let alone a 9 piece!

i record a good number of bands per week with my friend in his basement, and i am just so sick of people bringing in there 8 9 10 shell kits along with 12 cymbals and doing 16th note sweeping fills on every track. i think it kills creativity.

look i understand if your a drumming monster and have a 6 piece kit, you deserve it, but
when these high school kids come in with a 10 piece pacific drum kit and record nothing
but the same fills on different drums it drives me up the wall!

i had band come in this week, they where juniors in high school and he had 12 drums,
only one was a bass drum, he had 3 snare drums, only one actually had snares on it,
the other 2 where used as toms, he had real toms from three different kits, some of them
where the same size, none of them tuned really, he says he has been playing almost 4
years, and his chops seemed accurate to that, but he could not groove and its because
of all those drums, i know it!!

look if you have a big drum kit please break it down to a four peace just for a week, you
will feel the creativity flow.

i swear this makes me want to get better recording gear and a place so we can raise our
prices and stop dealing with this "we want a demo, we are 16" group of bands.

[bobdadruma]

Please read all 600 + posts in this thread.
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6992&highlight=big+kits+vs+small+kits+debate

[Tommy Two-Shoes]

I get what you mean, but when I was younger I was the same. I watched people like Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy and thought "wow, i want one!" - like most people who play, I was really into the aesthetics of drums. I still am, but those kits look pretty ugly to me now. Well, Neil's is cool. I think most people grow out of it though.

I know some people who use fairly big setups, but they justify it. It fits their style, it's what they do, the extra toms are handy for them. That's cool. I find I'm much happier at a minimum though - snare, big rack tom and floor tom. Like you said, it makes me be more creative with my fills, for sure.

[muckypops]

I don't see why you have a problem with any of it. People are expressing themselves. Get over it.

[Cottontop]

I'll stick with a nice 4, or occasionally 5 piece set. I do prefer very big cymbals though :)

[nickg]

Ringo had a four piece kit with 2 cymbals and a set of hats, and look how great he sounded on those records.

big kits are great, but they don't necessarily make you a "better" drummer!!!

[zakhopper316]

I don't see why you have a problem with any of it. People are expressing themselves. Get over it.

your right, neil peart was expressing him self, some one who has added more and more drums through the years is expressing himself, but a beginners first drum set with
8 pieces.. i mean yea, he is in fact expressing himself, i just think its a bit of an over load of expression if you know what i mean.


Blah, these people aren't "expressing" themselves, there kids who think the more drums you own the better drummer you are. To be fair, I think most of us go through this at one time or another. I remember back in the eighties I was trying to be like Dave Weckle, so I had two mounted toms, two floor toms, more cymbals than I needed and of course a double pedal and I wasn't even a kid. Now I use a kit more like Stanton Moore, minus the big side bass drum. Let them be, if they are no good, a smaller kit sure won't make them better, it will only make them hit the same tom over and over again. That can be as annoying as playing Hawaii 5 -O tom fills on six drums through every song.

interesting, i was actually the opposite, i grew up in the travis barker age, and i wanted to be like him( i didn't know better at the time). and he played a pretty tight kit, so i was a fan of the small drum sets, you know with cymbals like 4 feet above the drums.

i think a lot of it is my infatuation with the older days in drumming, i wasn't alive then but as i have gotten older i have really immersed my self in 50' and 60's music, and i wish i
could live through that music scene, because everything was the same in a way as far as gear and stuff. there wasn't all this stuff we have today. all the huge drums and out if this
world cymbals, and accessories , it was all uniform, the setups, the sizes, everything accept the playing. and im not anti originality or anti expression. i just think expression
then was more pure, it was doing something different on the same thing, you had the same sounds but you could express them in your own ways, i think that makes expression more difficult, more true

[Jessiah331]

Let me put it this way. I (typically) play with 5 toms, a single bass, and two snares. I have four crashes, two splashes, a mini china, ride, and hats. I don't blast out 16ths, play repetitive beats, and don't think I'm anywhere near as good as some drummers that use smaller sets.

BUT

I set up like this because I like to play my drums like a musical instrument. Not something that produces three different sounds and monotone beats. I prefer to be able to crash and have different sounds, and do little tom fills that all sound different. I enjoy playing my drums with all the bells and whistles to play with.

Don't get me wrong, I do have fun playing a small kit too, but it's just not what I enjoy doing. I mean, I don't start threads rapping on drummers that have one tom and one crash, because thats what they like to play.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

any way i have got to say i am so so sick of people with large drum kits, i mean really?
do we really need to act like Neil Peart? and its even worse when they cant even play a 4
piece well let alone a 9 piece!


Hey there mate.

The only question I would ask myself here is: "why does it piss ME off, what OTHER people choose to play?"

On a personal level, I own a 6 peice kit.....when I gig (not often these days admitedly), I take a 4 peice....only beacuase I'm a lazy bugger and can longer be bothered dragging a heap of stuff around with me anymore. But that's MY choice, much like it's YOUR choice to take a smaller rig also. But what does it really matter? My take on it all is, it's music.....do what you need to to get the sound out of your head and into your instrument. For you, it's achievable on a smaller kit.....others need more. Why should that annoy you?

If your greatest concern is a 16 year old on a 12 peice kit......then you can consider it a damn good life my friend.

As for you recording the same thing week in, week out.......that's the vocation you've chosen for yourself mate. You're gonna hear a hell of a lot more "same, same" before you're through......trust me (imagine how the Eddie Kramers of the world must feel...lol). Record it, track it, give 'em their CD and then take the money. It'll make you enjoy the "quality" acts when they pass through your studio, all the more.

[keep it simple]

I play a 6 piece now. I played a 6 piece when I was 18. I'll always play a 6 piece because it's what I want to play. I'm not going to "grow out of it". I'm not trying to be like anyone. It just suits my playing and I like it.

Of course I can knock out a groove on less drums, it's just that I don't want to most of the time. There isn't a single element of my kit that I don't use regularly. I am currently putting together a big kick & little snare combo for some groove stuff I'm into. Just the two pieces, with hats, ride & a couple of crashes. A very different flavour to my 6 piece. Just because I usually play with more stuff, doesn't mean I'm going to struggle with the ultra simple setup. It's a choice thing, nothing more than that.

[Pollyanna]

Bigger is better. Faster is better. Fatter is better. More powerful is better. More spectacular is better. More of everything is better.

Um ... are we talking about drums and drumming?

[Brundlefly]

Bigger is better. Faster is better. Fatter is better. More powerful is better. More spectacular is better. More of everything is better.

Um ... are we talking about drums and drumming?

/agree.

Bigger is bigger. Smaller is smaller. Less is less, not more. More is more. Tools are tools, nothing more. Creativity comes form be being creative, not from tools. And only tools give a rat's ass about how many tools someone chooses to use to be creative.

Ok, back to setting up my 19 piece...

[kevthedrummer]

/agree.

Bigger is bigger. Smaller is smaller. Less is less, not more. More is more. Tools are tools, nothing more. Creativity comes form be being creative, not from tools. And only tools give a rat's ass about how many tools someone chooses to use to be creative.

Ok, back to setting up my 19 piece...

Good post I agree.

I do know what the thread starter means though, particularly with recording bands. A lot of young drummers discover things like the double kick, and totally ruin every song with it, my brother records bands and he's had similar issues.

[MikeM]

Don't want to be bothered by crappy bands and crappy drummers with big kits (and crappy drummers with small kits, for that matter)? Then get out of the business of listening to them.

[yesdog]

I play a 6 piece now. I played a 6 piece when I was 18. I'll always play a 6 piece because it's what I want to play. I'm not going to "grow out of it". I'm not trying to be like anyone. It just suits my playing and I like it.

Of course I can knock out a groove on less drums, it's just that I don't want to most of the time. There isn't a single element of my kit that I don't use regularly. I am currently putting together a big kick & little snare combo for some groove stuff I'm into. Just the two pieces, with hats, ride & a couple of crashes. A very different flavour to my 6 piece. Just because I usually play with more stuff, doesn't mean I'm going to struggle with the ultra simple setup. It's a choice thing, nothing more than that.

I use the same set up you do, always have. In fact when I got mt drum set it was a double bass ten piece. I use a six piece most of the time. The other half of my kit I use as a four piece for sit in gigs, weddings ect. ITS NOT THE SWORD ITS THE SWORDSMEN.

[Neil]

If these guys want to have a big kit, great! If it's a 4 piece great! Why let it bother you. Let them have fun with it, there's too much time and worry given to peer pressure, they should whatever is making them happy at the time.

[A-customs]

This goes back to a point i think we all as people who play and love Music which is....Its a very fine line to say the whys and hows a person does things.Its music,and its a very subjective thing.Sure he doesnt need all that stuff,BUT HE thinks he does and he LIKES it.Just that simple...Its like when Buddy Rich kind of put down Ringo,And Bonham,come on man get off the High horse.And enjoy someone elses perspetive.....Dont get me wrong i loved Buddy Rich,.could he have played on zeps records No way..Apples oranges man...........

[TFITTING942]

I see your point about bringing all your gear from a monster kit and not even using it all. Whats the point of that? I love big kits (not Bozzios though), but why set up in a studio if you are not using it? I was hired to do studio work for a band and when I found out the studio had a vintage 4 piece Ludwig I jumped at the chance to play it ans leave my 9pc double bass kit home! I only needed my snare,cymbals and bass pedal. It's not always what you play but how you play it. While I love the range of my toms 10,12,13,14,16,18, I know I don't need them all for every situation. That comes with age I guess.

[sabian92]

If people have the money and the space for it, then I don't see the problem. I personally grew up listening to Queen - Roger Taylor has played some pretty big kits in his time, yet I play a far smaller kit. (It isn't small by any stretch but it's not anywhere near as big as some bands who have a drummer with a big kit).

I could happily play a big or a little kit, but there's no point in having a massive kit. I don't see the point in a huge kit when I'm into pop punk and rock music - It's just not really needed.

[Moldy]

Charge by the hour for every hour of your time? Including setup time for their monster kits and tear down and what not.

[JPW]

More is more. Not better or worse, it's more. Do _you_ need more?

[vinniewannabe]

Neil can use a big kit because the music calls for it, same with Portnoy and other drummers that play that music.

I think age plays a part. The older you get, the more realistic you get.

The more experience you get, the more you realize what you really need on the gig.

The older you get, the less you want to carry around a bunch of un-used gear.

When you are young, you want to emulate your hero's. The problem is, you play to to Dream Theatre records at home, but you are playing "Sweet Home Alabama" on the gig. Kids don;t realize that they can leave the gong at home. Oh yeah, leave the 2 china's at home too. You wont need them for "Brown Eye Girl".

The best thing you can do Zakhopper is use your experience and educate the younger drummers. Give them PRACTICAL advice. They may not hear you now, but they are listening. I was a little stubborn when I was a young and learning drummer. So let kids be kids, but inform them. Having experience is a great teaching tool.

WAY back in the day, I had a 4-up, one down, tom set up, with cymbals galore, three splashes and 3 chinas..etc etc...one day I got rid of it all.....5 pc with a couple of crashes, ride, hats etc...I remember my guitar player at the time said to me, "You don't sound any different then when you had all that stuff" There you go.

[AudioWonderland]

hey all, so i know i can be really argumentative at times but i just have to say..well first off
nothing personal
any way i have got to say i am so so sick of people with large drum kits, i mean really?
do we really need to act like Neil Peart? and its even worse when they cant even play a 4
piece well let alone a 9 piece!

i record a good number of bands per week with my friend in his basement, and i am just so sick of people bringing in there 8 9 10 shell kits along with 12 cymbals and doing 16th note sweeping fills on every track. i think it kills creativity.

look i understand if your a drumming monster and have a 6 piece kit, you deserve it, but
when these high school kids come in with a 10 piece pacific drum kit and record nothing
but the same fills on different drums it drives me up the wall!

i had band come in this week, they where juniors in high school and he had 12 drums,
only one was a bass drum, he had 3 snare drums, only one actually had snares on it,
the other 2 where used as toms, he had real toms from three different kits, some of them
where the same size, none of them tuned really, he says he has been playing almost 4
years, and his chops seemed accurate to that, but he could not groove and its because
of all those drums, i know it!!

look if you have a big drum kit please break it down to a four peace just for a week, you
will feel the creativity flow.

i swear this makes me want to get better recording gear and a place so we can raise our
prices and stop dealing with this "we want a demo, we are 16" group of bands.

Incorrect premise. Fewer drums are not going to improve anyone's groove. Only time and experience do that. I don't know where this hangup on shell or cymbal count comes from but I wish it would stay there. You can overplay just as easily on 4 drums as you can 10. The issue here seems to be frustration with recording bad bands, not how many drums they are using

[jon e rotten]

Did anyone hear Travis Barker play 'Stairway to Heaven' with Mary J. Blige on American Idol? (I know, I know, but my wife makes me watch it I swear!) One of the best/worst examples of overplaying I've ever heard, and he's playing a small set.

[Nodiggie]

I think monster kits are great. I decided many years ago to have it framed, much easier to transport. hehe

[RogerLudwig]

Anyone who thinks small kits are limiting should take a look at Michael Shrieve's (Santana) drum solo in the Woodstock movie. Awesome R 'n R solo on a 4-piece Ludwig kit.

[Jessiah331]

My typical setup is I guess what yall would call big. But with my roadies help (and my rack!) it takes me about 15 minutes to set up. It has a fairly small footprint (smaller than the rug)

I set up in almost the same situation every week, with plenty of space, plenty of time to set up, plenty of area to transport it. I use every drum that I have, every cymbal that I have, and I never play over the top, crazy fills to make myself look good.


How am I not as good as a drummer that plays a 4 piece?! I just don't understand the logic of these 'big kit' hate threads...

[jer]

...record nothing but the same fills on different drums it drives me up the wall!

...i swear this makes me want to get better recording gear and a place so we can raise our
prices and stop dealing with this "we want a demo, we are 16" group of bands.

If this stuff is driving you nuts now, I reckon you are heading into the wrong field.

Being an engineer involves a lot of patience. Not every player who walks into your place is going to be a stellar player with wicked gear, no matter what age. I doubt money has anything to do with it either - who's to say you don't charge twice what you do now to only have guys in their 50's who are beginners come in and do the same thing?

[Skulmoski]

I get what you mean, but when I was younger I was the same. I watched people like Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy and thought "wow, i want one!" - like most people who play, I was really into the aesthetics of drums. I still am, but those kits look pretty ugly to me now. Well, Neil's is cool. I think most people grow out of it though.


In the 70's I had a big Ludwig Octaplus kit (but with 5 toms), double bass, electronic drums and lots of cymbals. I grew out of that. Gigging with a big kit was a pain in the *ss. Now, my dream kit is a Gretsch USA Custom (1 up and 2 down).

GJS

[MikeM]

There was a brief period in the '80s when I had a double bass 4 up 2 down Tama Superstar. (Simon Phillips, Steve Smith anyone?) It was fun for a little while, but I quickly found that kit more useful as two smaller kits, which allowed me to be in more than one band without dragging a huge kit with me wherever I went.

I gigged with it a couple times before breaking it apart and it was do-able, but not something I wanted to make a habit of.

[KarlCrafton]

zakhopper316, I get what you're saying.

I'd just charge more for larger kits. More mic's, "hassle factor" etc.... maybe just charge "X" amount per hour.
OR, offer a kit up that you have ready for them to use.

Then let them go at it, and if they suck, it's on their dime.

Otherwise, maybe raise your "talent level bar" for groups you'll do business with.

When I was a kid, I can remember saying "I'd NEVER want to use less than 4 toms"....
now I use 1...but I use 3 floor toms haha!

I only record with one or two though.

Actually, most of the younger drummers I see in the clubs these days have smaller kits.

[dairyairman]

a lot of young drummers have big kits too. i see metal drummers with really big rack mounted drum kits all the time. big kits live on in the world of metal!

[nicotine25]

I went through that phase...for a long time. I started playing when I was 5 and I think that seeing a huge drum set is what first turned me on to drums. For the next 10 + years I assembled every piece of junk I could...just to make my set look big...Jam blocks, cowbells, ice bells, splashes, mini timbales, mini snares, chimes, tambourines, congas, bongos along with my set (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 22, and 2 14 snares) ; plenty of cymbals, 3 crashes, 2 hats, ride, 2 chinas, cymbal stacks, 4+ splashes etc....all on a huge gibraltar rack. Needless to say it was ridiculous. When I was about 18 I experienced an epiphany. I realized that the music I played did not call for anything more than a good groove so I in turn scaled back size, upgraded quality and sold a lot of needless items. I now run with a basic five piece. (12" up, 16" down, 2 snares...2 crashes, ride, hats and a splash)...I have found that I focus much more on the groove, and I am much more creative in what I use and how I use it. I use more cross stick, rims, cymbal bells, foot splashes etc. I too annoys me that so many young drummers want to look cool with big sets that don't sound good. Maybe it all comes with maturity. I would just like young drummers to learn from my past mistakes...Don't worry about quantity of drums and cymbals, if your are going to stick with the drums invest in good quality snares, cymbals and hardware...worry about the "junk" later.

[zakhopper316]

Hey there mate.

The only question I would ask myself here is: "why does it piss ME off, what OTHER people choose to play?"

On a personal level, I own a 6 peice kit.....when I gig (not often these days admitedly), I take a 4 peice....only beacuase I'm a lazy bugger and can longer be bothered dragging a heap of stuff around with me anymore. But that's MY choice, much like it's YOUR choice to take a smaller rig also. But what does it really matter? My take on it all is, it's music.....do what you need to to get the sound out of your head and into your instrument. For you, it's achievable on a smaller kit.....others need more. Why should that annoy you?

If your greatest concern is a 16 year old on a 12 peice kit......then you can consider it a damn good life my friend.

As for you recording the same thing week in, week out.......that's the vocation you've chosen for yourself mate. You're gonna hear a hell of a lot more "same, same" before you're through......trust me (imagine how the Eddie Kramers of the world must feel...lol). Record it, track it, give 'em their CD and then take the money. It'll make you enjoy the "quality" acts when they pass through your studio, all the more.

a 6 piece kit is not big, for me at least, i have jammed on a 6 before it was fun. i consider a 10 piece big, or an 8 piece with only one bass drum big. i still cant find a purpose for
anything bigger then 6 7ish piece kit.


I play a 6 piece now. I played a 6 piece when I was 18. I'll always play a 6 piece because it's what I want to play. I'm not going to "grow out of it". I'm not trying to be like anyone. It just suits my playing and I like it.

Of course I can knock out a groove on less drums, it's just that I don't want to most of the time. There isn't a single element of my kit that I don't use regularly. I am currently putting together a big kick & little snare combo for some groove stuff I'm into. Just the two pieces, with hats, ride & a couple of crashes. A very different flavour to my 6 piece. Just because I usually play with more stuff, doesn't mean I'm going to struggle with the ultra simple setup. It's a choice thing, nothing more than that.

again, i never once said a 6 piece kit is big or unnecessary, i would buy a 6 piece with 2 down, you could do some cool tom rock stuff,

Incorrect premise. Fewer drums are not going to improve anyone's groove. Only time and experience do that. I don't know where this hangup on shell or cymbal count comes from but I wish it would stay there. You can overplay just as easily on 4 drums as you can 10. The issue here seems to be frustration with recording bad bands, not how many drums they are using

i disagree to an extent, i think if you are a first years student, a smaller kit, along with time and experience will help you to find and use new rhythms because it is easier to tell that you are doing the same thing on a small kit then it is on a big kit.


any way i have got to say i am so so sick of people with large drum kits...


and i am just so sick of people bringing in there [sic]...


look i understand if your[u] [sic] a drumming monster and have a 6 piece kit, [u]you deserve it, but

when these high school kids...

and stop dealing with this "we want a demo, we are 16" group of bands.

this does not seem personal to me? i didn't mention any names did i? not personal. i didn't say a person on here was in one of these examples? not personal

My typical setup is I guess what yall would call big. But with my roadies help (and my rack!) it takes me about 15 minutes to set up. It has a fairly small footprint (smaller than the rug)

I set up in almost the same situation every week, with plenty of space, plenty of time to set up, plenty of area to transport it. I use every drum that I have, every cymbal that I have, and I never play over the top, crazy fills to make myself look good.


How am I not as good as a drummer that plays a 4 piece?! I just don't understand the logic of these 'big kit' hate threads...

i never said you are?? unless of course your one of the high schoolers with a big kit that have recorded in my friends basement with us? in west new york? if not you are in the clear!! :)

[dairyairman]

i think the solution to your problem is to charge by the hour for your studio time. then you'll be begging drummers with big kits to record with you.

i went to a studio that charged by the hour a couple years ago with a 6 piece kit and they were more than happy to spend several hours setting up a billion mics on everything and carefully sound check every one of them. it was expensive for us, but they didn't seem to mind at all. i'm sure that they LOVE monster kits and all the trouble it takes to get them set up for recording. for them it's more money in their pocket.

[Deathmetalconga]

Most people play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. It's the extremes that argue with each other about this. Most of us just play what we have.

I think the obsession with double pedals is bizarre. 16th notes on the bass drums have very little use in most genres and irritates other musicians, and takes many hours of practice to learn to play well. Yet double bass drumming is the single most-talked about subject across the board (well, that and John Bonham). Why spend so much time learning something that has little use and not many other musicians appreciate?

[Pollyanna]

A lot of it is just showmanship IMO. Monster kits are amazing looking things.

Still reckon there's an element of red sports car about them, though :)


16th notes on the bass drums have very little use in most genres and irritates other musicians, and takes many hours of practice to learn to play well. Yet double bass drumming is the single most-talked about subject across the board (well, that and John Bonham). Why spend so much time learning something that has little use and not many other musicians appreciate?

DMC, the double pedal rumble is to modern metal drumming what spang-a-lang is to bop. Those devices are so ubiquitous in those styles that they're almost genre-defining. Neither approach is used much in other genres. Some people just like to specialise.

BTW, I think Buddy would be mentioned more on the board than Bonzo :)

[zakhopper316]

seem to you, yes, but as you mentioned in the first post
"so i know i can be really argumentative at times but i just have to say"

the "seems" to you my very well be less sensitive-to/aware-of of that aspect

i didn't mention any names did i? not personal.


that would be merely personal IDENTIFICATION,
what you did do is assign personal attributes and use personal pronouns and spoke of specific persons -- attaching that to a more general concept





that you aren't directly addressing the persons you are criticizing , but are talking to third parties doesn't make the criticism non-personal (in fact right here, we have again a specific calling out of personages) as you say - you were using specific examples, of an individual person
the criticism is personal, the declaration is public

what ever dude. then its personal, i don't care.

i think the solution to your problem is to charge by the hour for your studio time. then you'll be begging drummers with big kits to record with you.

i went to a studio that charged by the hour a couple years ago with a 6 piece kit and they were more than happy to spend several hours setting up a billion mics on everything and carefully sound check every one of them. it was expensive for us, but they didn't seem to mind at all. i'm sure that they LOVE monster kits and all the trouble it takes to get them set up for recording. for them it's more money in their pocket.

i know we should charge by the hour, we might not get as much tho, its just a finished basement with mics racks and a large mixer, and a closet for vocals, i am seriously considering it because the finished product is good. what do you think? 20 an hour? we charge 60 a day right now and the bands with alot of equipment usually do a 3 to 5, 8 hour days because of set up mic prep, and all the fidgeting they do with there stuff,
small bands that have a small kit and use the in house amps get done in about a day and a half.

Most people play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. It's the extremes that argue with each other about this. Most of us just play what we have.

I think the obsession with double pedals is bizarre. 16th notes on the bass drums have very little use in most genres and irritates other musicians, and takes many hours of practice to learn to play well. Yet double bass drumming is the single most-talked about subject across the board (well, that and John Bonham). Why spend so much time learning something that has little use and not many other musicians appreciate?
i agree, you don't want to get me started on double bass, alot of kids buy a drum set because they want to play double bass, the see how fast they can run on the bass pedal, do not practice hand technique or learn a variety of grooves and end up quitting a short time after, i see this all the time, "hardcore" bands come in and record a demo before they have even played a show and its just 16th note double bass from the drums. they end up not "kicking off" as fast as they thought they would an soon loose interest.

[con struct]

I'd love to have a big double-bass drum kit with lots of toms and cymbals. I'd have a blast pretending that I'm Keith Moon! Who tribute band here I come!

It's all fun, you know.

[Pollyanna]

I'd love to have a big double-bass drum kit with lots of toms and cymbals. I'd have a blast pretending that I'm Keith Moon! Who tribute band here I come!

It's all fun, you know.

LOL I'm hearing you, Jay Moon! In the early days I put my two crappy kits together to make a monster crappy kit. Much fun but the reality of lugging and actually being able to use a large kit in a sensible way meant that that arrangement never made it out of my music room.

These days I get confused between just hats, snare and a kick. If I had a giant double pedal kit my brain would explode :)

[bobdadruma]

There was a time when I played a ten piece kit. I did this for many years during the seventies. I was good at it, I played both Hard Rock, and Southern Rock, and everything in between.
I now play a four and a five piece kit, Depending on the venue!
I also always use a conga player, along with other hand drum players from time to time. I even use two four or five piece kit players with the conga player and other hand drum players.

I can play better with a full percussion section than I ever could when I played my ten piece!
I can sit back, provide groove, while the other percussionist provide the color. I can stand out when I want to, and then lay back and let the other percussionist take over and have their moments of glory.
I have learned this over the many years of playing, I can't do it all! I need help to make it work properly.
I am now most comfortable with a classic jazz style four piece kit, And a full percussion ensemble to complete a full rhythm section.

[zakhopper316]

I'd love to have a big double-bass drum kit with lots of toms and cymbals. I'd have a blast pretending that I'm Keith Moon! Who tribute band here I come!

It's all fun, you know.

did keith moon play doubles bass? i dont think he did but im not sure. not a huge who fan.

[ALazyLlama]

did keith moon play doubles bass? i dont think he did but im not sure. not a huge who fan.Yeah he did. You hear it a lot in their live performances (Live at Leeds for example). He never used a hi-hat live, so his left foot was always on his second bass pedal :)

[con struct]

did keith moon play doubles bass? i dont think he did but im not sure. not a huge who fan.

Yep, two bass drums.

[bobdadruma]

Yep, two bass drums.OK J, If you say so!
And here it is!!! http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/equipment/drums/equip-moondrums-75-76.html
You were correct J, Moon did play a double bass. I knew that too! Who, (forgive the pun!) Didn't play a double bass back then! We all had two basses. I did!

[boomstick]

I currently play a 3-piece kit. I like it that way. From a playing standpoint, however many pieces other drummers use doesn't concern me in the least. I think the only time I feel bad when some young kid without a lot of money spends everything he has on a flashy new monster kit of questionable quality when he could do much better with a good quality, second-hand 5-piece.

[Nodiggie]

I'd love to have a big double-bass drum kit with lots of toms and cymbals. I'd have a blast pretending that I'm Keith Moon! Who tribute band here I come!

It's all fun, you know.

ROFL.....thx J it's Friday and I needed that laugh....

[shadowlorde]

the people who can't play them well .. sound just as bad on a 4 piece.

I agree .. sweep fills get boring ..

I think of it this way .. .... by your logic .. a guitar player only needs 4 strings .. the extra 2 .. they hinder creativity right? hell .. he can get a decent amount of notes with just 1 string ... more than one string eliminates creativity .. they might play some scales (sweep fill)


it's not the equipment you use but how you use it .. if you play blast blast sweep fill .. yes .. its lame .. but many people play a fill of snare, rack tom, floor tom on a 4 piece.

a bigger drum set brings more possibilities if you know how to use it . if you try to play melodically or use certain higher toms tuned higher as accents. I play a 6 piece and would love to make it a 7 or 8 piece (single bass drum) because of the possibilities.
and it really does depend on what your playing. if you use the toms melodically .. you could play jazz on a 10 piece .. you can play metal on a 3 piece.

what bothers me most is people watching mtv and deciding they need a 4 piece "custom" drum set in an artist's nightmare color scheme with a 22x22 bass drum and playing with the technique of a very p.o'd gorilla.

[dairyairman]

i know we should charge by the hour, we might not get as much tho, its just a finished basement with mics racks and a large mixer, and a closet for vocals, i am seriously considering it because the finished product is good. what do you think? 20 an hour? we charge 60 a day right now and the bands with alot of equipment usually do a 3 to 5, 8 hour days because of set up mic prep, and all the fidgeting they do with there stuff,
small bands that have a small kit and use the in house amps get done in about a day and a half.



$20 an hour is a reasonable rate. that's exactly what we were charged in that studio i was telling you about. it was a nice studio with a big wood floored room for me and my kit and separate rooms for other musicians. i considered that a good deal because some other places were charging $40 to $50 an hour. we got a break because we booked a large block of time. we ended up going over that of course, mostly because of all the fussing with drums and other nit picking by the singer/songwriter.

other places i've been to charge a flat rate per song, which is usually cheaper, but i don't like it because they always rush you through everything and try to get you out of there as quickly as possible.

[Fur drummer]

Oh no not this again!

I love my big kit and having all those drums and cymbals around me. I tried playing smaller kits and it just felt weird having all that space were drums and cymbals should be. Although now that I'm playing more jazz now I might have do get use to a smaller kit but I will still use two bass drums.

[Jessiah331]

Chillax!

I was just standing up for meself. Nothing personal taken, no offence.

lol

[Strangelove]

http://medisinmusicforthemasses.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/terry-bozzio-drum-kit_69.jpg

[zakhopper316]

like you say, you don't care

about what you are saying to me now

[zakhopper316]

Chillax!

I was just standing up for meself. Nothing personal taken, no offence.

lol

dude? i was not being serious haha i was being sarcastic, i guess a failed attempt at sarcasm, some forms of humor are hard taken over text. this forum needs a sarcasm or just playing around button. but anyway all i was saying was no your in the clear i was not referring to your playing, just some people i record and big drum sets. trust me of all people do not want to get personal, i learned early on that debating on the forum doesn't lead anywhere.

http://medisinmusicforthemasses.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/terry-bozzio-drum-kit_69.jpg

haha when this shows up i retire the mics! wow im guessing that is in a music store? do you really think all of those pedals are attached to something percussive? i have a heard time believing they are!

[zakhopper316]

agreeing with you - you said you can be really argumentative and that you don't care

in once sentence right? same context? no, dude just drop it and talk about percussion.

[Nodiggie]

haha when this shows up i retire the mics! wow im guessing that is in a music store? do you really think all of those pedals are attached to something percussive? i have a heard time believing they are!

Zak, that's Bozzios' kit. Yes, he plays every single instrument and yes all the pedals are attached to something. If you ever get a chance to check out one of his clinics, DO IT!
It will blow your mind.

[Coldhardsteel]

This... Kinda hurts my feelings...

*sniff* d-do I play a big kit? I don't like being hated... ;__;

But really, I wouldn't complain about the noobs coming in with their 8 and up piece kits. It's money for you and a great experience plus that money when someone good comes along.

[George@drums182]

I can see what you mean with you getting annoyed with young drummers turning up with massive drum kits because they think it makes them a better drummer, but there are some out there who have big kits and dont do it to to seem better, im 16 and have been plaing for about 10 years now, and originaly i had a 4 piece, and about 2 years my dad was like ill get you a new kit, and i choose to have a bigger kit because i wanted to try something new and it worked for me, im just saying that not every young person with a big kit does it to seem better.

Thanks

[con struct]

Keith Moon started using two bass drums and more toms so he wouldn't be upstaged by other acts on the bill. When you look at him playing those enormous kits he had you can see that he's having fun. Isn't that what it's all about, having fun?

If I was a die-hard rock drummer in the right situation I'd insist on having a huge double-bass kit, just for the sheer fun of it.

[alparrott]

Sounds like a case of big kit envy to me.

@OP: You know, if you don't want to hear a bunch of kids playing in ways you don't think are talented or grooving, here's an idea: Why don't you offer them lessons? Get them grooving. Get them in time. Teach them how to do different things around their set, whether they've got 3 or 30 pieces. Show them how to tweak and tease different sounds out of a snare drum, out of their toms, out of their hi-hats and ride cymbal. Get them interested in something besides death metal. I mean, you could do that... right?

Groove, feel, and time have nothing to do with the size of your kit and everything to do with your experience and familiarity with your instrument.

When I was a teenager I would have killed to record on something approaching a "real" studio setup. Back then there were no laptops running ProTools. If you were lucky you had a decent microphone on your cassette recorder.

Everyone started out somewhere, and not everyone who wants to be recorded is a professional ... yet. If it really bugs you that much to record them, stop doing it.

[con struct]

Sounds like a case of big kit envy to me.

I freely admit to having big kit envy. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to remedy that!

[Pollyanna]

I freely admit to having big kit envy. If I ever win the lottery I'm going to remedy that!

Purchase 1. The kit

Purchase 2. A soundproof studio (storage and playing)

Purchase 3: A roadie / drum tech.

You need all three.

[zakhopper316]

This... Kinda hurts my feelings...

*sniff* d-do I play a big kit? I don't like being hated... ;__;

But really, I wouldn't complain about the noobs coming in with their 8 and up piece kits. It's money for you and a great experience plus that money when someone good comes along.

I can see what you mean with you getting annoyed with young drummers turning up with massive drum kits because they think it makes them a better drummer, but there are some out there who have big kits and dont do it to to seem better, im 16 and have been plaing for about 10 years now, and originaly i had a 4 piece, and about 2 years my dad was like ill get you a new kit, and i choose to have a bigger kit because i wanted to try something new and it worked for me, im just saying that not every young person with a big kit does it to seem better.

Thanks

is all the hassle of having to load, set up, mic, and sometimes tune all of those drums? i mean does it really make your playing that much more musical then just a standard 5 piece?

Sounds like a case of big kit envy to me.

@OP: You know, if you don't want to hear a bunch of kids playing in ways you don't think are talented or grooving, here's an idea: Why don't you offer them lessons? Get them grooving. Get them in time. Teach them how to do different things around their set, whether they've got 3 or 30 pieces. Show them how to tweak and tease different sounds out of a snare drum, out of their toms, out of their hi-hats and ride cymbal. Get them interested in something besides death metal. I mean, you could do that... right?

Groove, feel, and time have nothing to do with the size of your kit and everything to do with your experience and familiarity with your instrument.

When I was a teenager I would have killed to record on something approaching a "real" studio setup. Back then there were no laptops running ProTools. If you were lucky you had a decent microphone on your cassette recorder.

Everyone started out somewhere, and not everyone who wants to be recorded is a professional ... yet. If it really bugs you that much to record them, stop doing it.

dont get me wrong, when they bring those kits in i would love to whale on then for a while, and i would even own a big kit as a novelty to play on when im bored. only as long as i have my trusty 4 piece with the 1 crash i hi hat and one ride for playing out. i would to afraid to take a huge kit to a show, maybe a metal gig, but besides that people might think im trying to compensate for something. kinda like the guys with big trucks theory.
i have been to many shows where i heard the big kit compensation jake from non drummers.

[Coldhardsteel]

is all the hassle of having to load, set up, mic, and sometimes tune all of those drums? i mean does it really make your playing that much more musical then just a standard 5 piece?


Hmm...

Why yes, it does. It's like playing a guitar with six strings instead of four or five.

[Pollyanna]

Hmm...

Why yes, it does. It's like playing a guitar with six strings instead of four or five.

A four- or five-string guitar is not a complete instrument. A small drum kit is.

CHS, I think a more accurate analogy would be playing a guitar with more effects pedals.

[ANIMALBEATS]

I'm sure this isnt what your getting at, but I have a 7peice, 8,10,12,14,16,22 with a 12 snare, I love it, I am able to be far more vocal in my playing.. Got 8 cymbals and a high-hat too, which is great for expression.

But I do assume your getting at stupidly big kits.

[alparrott]

people might think im trying to compensate for something. kinda like the guys with big trucks theory. i have been to many shows where i heard the big kit compensation jake from non drummers.

Now, I can totally agree with you on the truck thing... some of those trucks do their most hardcore terrain driving when they go over the speed bump in the grocery parking lot.

[DrumEatDrum]

A four- or five-string guitar is not a complete instrument. A small drum kit is.

CHS, I think a more accurate analogy would be playing a guitar with more effects pedals.

Disagree.

You don't need all 6 strings to play most chords.

Or 4 or 5 string guitar would still allow someone to play most songs, at least until you got to the solo part. (sounds familiar?)

Either way, I grew up seeing drummers play large kits in the 80's before I took up drums. Keith Moon and Kenny Jones, Steve Smith, Neil Peart, all the records I had seemed to be made with large kits.

Then I realized carrying all that stuff to a gig blew. And I've played a 5 pc ever since.

[crdirtRider856]

I would (w)hore myself out to a thousand ... nevermind... to play Bozzio' s contraption.

Anyway, I have gotten so much critisism and flack for having 12-13 cymbals on a 2 up 2 down set. I use every single one and feel lost without them. I love the accents and moods I can create or add to whatever I m playing. Its part of my personal style...which I believe every drummer should focus on after learning the "basics".

If everyone played a 4 pc with 1 ride and 1 crash I would be looking for the guy that has 10 toms and 20 cymbals... And vice versa. I grew up with Ringo and Bonzo and only use what is needed for that particular song... When we play a Rush song I have the option of expanding my range and it bleeds into my own personal style of playing. I try to make every song "my own version"...

It s one thing to start out with an oversized kit... Its like giving a 16 yr old a Corvette. But after one finds out what drumming is about, the choice is absolutely up to the one holding the sticks. I found out about big kits maybe 6-7 yrs after starting and never looked back to my simple set. I made my set to fit my style and want to add more whenever I hear something I like and would use to my advantage.

To O.P. get over it and welcome to the complicated world of diversity. Charge more, set limits, and tell these kids what you think. But make your $ worth while and do what you gotta do.

[BuddhaTrixie]

Right on for the 4 piece! I'm a big believer in that and the single pedal. Although I really do fancy the sounds of those Octobons, I may have to get some for that Stewart Copeland in me.

[Pollyanna]

Disagree.

You don't need all 6 strings to play most chords.

Or 4 or 5 string guitar would still allow someone to play most songs, at least until you got to the solo part. (sounds familiar?)

quick historical note - the baroque guitar actually HAS just 5 strings (well, actually courses, they are doubled on a baroque guitar).

Picky picky. I didn't really need to add a "generally" disclaimer to get my point across, did I? We must be building up our lawyer, engineer, accountant and scientist count on the forum.

How many bands out there have guitar players who use 6 string guitars? Millions. How have guitarists whose guitars have just 4 or 5 strings? SFA (unless you could those twaaang moments).

How many bands have drummers who play big kits? Millions. How many bands have drummers who play four piece kits? Millions.

The only concession I will make is a disclaimer:
A four- or five-string guitar is not a complete instrument for the purposes of common use. A small drum kit is.

[harryconway]

...i am so so sick of people with large drum kits.....
......i record a good number of bands per week with my friend in his basement....


It's very simple. Quit doing it.

[BassDriver]

What about small double-bass kits, I don't seem to see enough of them?

http://www.drummerworld.com/pics/drum40/louis_bellson_large.jpg

[Coldhardsteel]

A four- or five-string guitar is not a complete instrument. A small drum kit is.

CHS, I think a more accurate analogy would be playing a guitar with more effects pedals.

Disagree.

You don't need all 6 strings to play most chords.

Or 4 or 5 string guitar would still allow someone to play most songs, at least until you got to the solo part. (sounds familiar?)

Either way, I grew up seeing drummers play large kits in the 80's before I took up drums. Keith Moon and Kenny Jones, Steve Smith, Neil Peart, all the records I had seemed to be made with large kits.

Then I realized carrying all that stuff to a gig blew. And I've played a 5 pc ever since.

quick historical note - the baroque guitar actually HAS just 5 strings (well, actually courses, they are doubled on a baroque guitar).
Many of the lute family have but 4 strings (uke, tenor banjo, etc)
and there can be the argument for more strings (such as the Galbraith arrangements for 8 string)

it's really not unlike drums - in guitar there is quite a bit of variation in number of strings, tuning, etc.

Picky picky. I didn't really need to add a "generally" disclaimer to get my point across, did I? We must be building up our lawyer, engineer, accountant and scientist count on the forum.

How many bands out there have guitar players who use 6 string guitars? Millions. How have guitarists whose guitars have just 4 or 5 strings? SFA (unless you could those twaaang moments).

How many bands have drummers who play big kits? Millions. How many bands have drummers who play four piece kits? Millions.

The only concession I will make is a disclaimer:
A four- or five-string guitar is not a complete instrument for the purposes of common use. A small drum kit is.


Geez, I didn't forsee my analogy failing that badly.

It's a matter of range, gentlemen(And Polly). A guitar with five strings can be tuned certain ways but it won't have the immediate ability to sound exactly like a six string guitar. I have a little 8" tom that's currently off my kit that I would tune waaaaaay up there to get more of a split-second pop than an actual tom sound, like a marching spocker on a set of quads. I can tell you, it worked as a timbale, spocker, and really high tom. That increased my musicality, in my opinion.

If that doesn't count, then theoretically a five piece with a bazillion different other kinds of percussion is exempt from Zak's hatred.

And please, call me Steel or something. CHS is... wargarble.

[Bernhard]

but he could not groove and its because
of all those drums, i know it!!

look if you have a big drum kit please break it down to a four peace just for a week, you
will feel the creativity flow.


This is SO true

Bernhard

[Pollyanna]

Geez, I didn't forsee my analogy failing that badly.

It's a matter of range, gentlemen(And Polly). A guitar with five strings can be tuned certain ways but it won't have the immediate ability to sound exactly like a six string guitar. I have a little 8" tom that's currently off my kit that I would tune waaaaaay up there to get more of a split-second pop than an actual tom sound, like a marching spocker on a set of quads. I can tell you, it worked as a timbale, spocker, and really high tom. That increased my musicality, in my opinion.

If that doesn't count, then theoretically a five piece with a bazillion different other kinds of percussion is exempt from Zak's hatred.

And please, call me Steel or something. CHS is... wargarble.

Wargarble? lol.

I don't want to be controversial but it's just how I see things.

Steel ... having more pieces increases your options, yes. And sure, more strings on a guitar will give you more options. Just that you'd normally see a guitarist playing a guitar with less than six strings as being hamstrung (no pun intended) whereas I doubt Papa Jo felt limited on his four-piece. If he was playing with Meshuggah, he might though.

BTW guys, this isn't a cue to find some obscure guitarist who vacillated between 4 and 5 string guitars :)

Neither analogy is quite right in hindsight, but the point is that extra pieces give you extra options. I'd see metal as the only style where a four-piece kit with a good drummer behind it won't cut it, and even then if there was a double pedal ...

I recently added an 8" tom to my kit too and think of its role similarly to you. I like having a high-pitched "woody" sound in the kit apart from the snare with strainers turned off. I love the way it adds colour to the music.

[Pollyanna]

You got your pint across - I (as a guitarist, that's my native instrument) just have a counterpoint to your point and didn't find your point particularly compelling nor accurate.

How many bands out there have guitar players who use 6 string guitars? Millions.

How have guitarists whose guitars have just 4 or 5 strings? SFA (unless you could those twaaang moments).

the baroque ones (FWIW the last guitaist I played with, I was on viol, was baroque) :D

but more to the point, the numbers would make it the more POPULAR configuration (at this time, it's an instrument in flux)
and in some ways 6 strings are incomplete (and we guitarists have to make arrangement concessions, the 6 string guitar has quite a bit of range, but at the same time, is an instrument of compromise)

I have a counterpoint to your counterpoint and don't find baroque guitarists' use of instruments with fewer strings very compelling either :-P

I'd say it's more to common understanding or possibly common misunderstanding, esp among non-guitarists.
the guitar is a bit of a bastard instrument and it's design and configuration isn't as universal nor standard as people (esp on the outside) tend to think. It's going through a period of massive massive popularity, so I suppose there's some regression to a mean . It can be akin to the understanding of "standard 5 piece kit" you see in catalogs, etc
hell, just a snare can be a complete instrument.

Interesting info but if guitars in the current configuration are new, the same could be said of drum kits. As per my last posting, there's no exact equivalent. The point of this thread is about finding the sweet spot between expand the range of our instruments and the law of diminishing returns.

Zak's just suggesting that there are more ways of increasing our musical options than adding more pieces to our kits. Not that it affects me. I'm happy to play full songs without touching a tom as long as the groove and feel are okay. I see toms as like spice in many styles rather than the main meal. Having said that, I have no strong opinion about people who prefer to play big kits. If it makes them happy, why not?

[audiotech]

This must be deja vu because I can remember answering this question at least a dozen times, lol. Over fifty years ago when my dad was first teaching me how to play drums it was on three pieces of his four piece Ludwig kit. This went on for several years before he introduced the 16" floor tom. When I saved up enough money to buy my first kit in 1965 it was a new five piece kit. I owned five piece kits most of my life until a couple of years ago suffering my my "after" mid life crisis, I decided I was going to expand a bit going to seven piece kits. I admit some of the drums on my kits do stay at home when gigging, but having them available gives me the opportunity to mix and match what I need depending on what band I'm playing with and the occasion. When I have my drums set up in my studio, all seven pieces are set up and besides being a hoot to play, it's great exercise and also great to know that I can still get around the kit, lol. Miking and transporting my drums is never a problem, but lugging them up stairs sometimes is.

I went through the gamut from small to large kits, but nothing monstrous. Play what you want or play what you need, but as I said above, it's very nice to have them available. What does put me off a bit is the beginning drummer having a double bass kit and not knowing what to do with their hands. Like, "what do I do with these sticks"?

Dennis

[bobdadruma]

If I was an endorsed pro and I had people to set up and move my kits for me I wouldn't care if the sponsors gave me a one hundred piece kit! If they set it up, I'll play it!
I would still play mainly only four or five of the drums and only four of five cymbals.
I would hit some of the unused drums and pies every now and then just to make the sponsors happy!

[zakhopper316]

Geez, I didn't forsee my analogy failing that badly.

It's a matter of range, gentlemen(And Polly). A guitar with five strings can be tuned certain ways but it won't have the immediate ability to sound exactly like a six string guitar. I have a little 8" tom that's currently off my kit that I would tune waaaaaay up there to get more of a split-second pop than an actual tom sound, like a marching spocker on a set of quads. I can tell you, it worked as a timbale, spocker, and really high tom. That increased my musicality, in my opinion.

If that doesn't count, then theoretically a five piece with a bazillion different other kinds of percussion is exempt from Zak's hatred.

And please, call me Steel or something. CHS is... wargarble.

i regress on saying this it hatred , just a firm discomfort to some of the drumming youth.

This is SO true

Bernhard

it is, if you break your set down down to just a snare bass drum and hi hat, you will come up with something.
i do this about once a month for a few days at a time and i come up with some great new fills,

I would (w)hore myself out to a thousand ... nevermind... to play Bozzio' s contraption.

It s one thing to start out with an oversized kit... Its like giving a 16 yr old a Corvette. But after one finds out what drumming is about, the choice is absolutely up to the one holding the sticks. I found out about big kits maybe 6-7 yrs after starting and never looked back to my simple set. I made my set to fit my style and want to add more whenever I hear something I like and would use to my advantage.

To O.P. get over it and welcome to the complicated world of diversity. Charge more, set limits, and tell these kids what you think. But make your $ worth while and do what you gotta do.

first, i gotta admit, i would follow suit to play Bozzio's drum set thing as well. and i think your analogy is spot on with the corvette, this is really what im talking about, i mean if you can pay well and your seasoned then you deserve to have a kit for your needs, but when you dont know your needs? i dont think its necessary.

i do talk to the kids, in fact one of them said playing a big kit was harder because u have to remember more things to hit, i tried very hard not to laugh and i didn't go into it with him because i did not want to argue with someone giving me money.
any thoughts on this? are the big kits harder to play?

Hmm...

Why yes, it does. It's like playing a guitar with six strings instead of four or five.

regardless, a guitar and pedal board is on trip, a handle case for each hand, and the amp a second trip, a 12 piece drum kit and 12 cymbals, that probably close to 10 trips.

polly has a good point, when is to much to much, when does it just become a hassle. when does the gear not get played? and what about jazz? i have never seen anything more then 6 pieces in jazz within the last 8 years? and i have only seen 6 a few times, and i go to shows here in new york often.

[spantney]

At the end of the day its down to personal preference, space and at the end of the day...how serious you are about drums.

My practice kit is a 7 piece with 11 cymbals, my gigging kit is a 7 piece too (varying amounts of cymbals) and I prefer to play them in this configuration if space at a gig is permissable. Does this mean I can't play a 4 or 5 piece kit....hell no. I tend to use a different setup with regards to how many snares or toms I set up on almost a weekly basis. Sometimes I wake up in a triple rack tom mood for band rehersal, other times I want to go for a 1 up and 1 down. I also know that I'm not the only drummer that does this from having quite a few mates who are also drummers.

You are right in that getting the basics down in essential and for drummers who would rather have massive kits and no skill, their logic is flawed but these people are not serious about the instrument. Exactly the same as the 'guitarists' who go out and buy massive stack amplifiers even though they can't play a chord transition. Also, does it ever grind on you about people who play for a few weeks and go out and buy a DW kit or something rediculous like that? To be honest it annoys me more to see beginners playing extremely expensive kits than those playing a huge frankenkit or whatever. However some of these people have worked hard for their money to buy an expensive kit straight away, others just have rich parents.

Coming back off that massive tangent, as above I think its all down to preference and I don't think the size of drumkit makes anyone a better or worse drummer. Its how you express yourself. I've seen some epic grooves played on just a hi-hat before! Why play a 4 piece drum kit when a hi-hat will do eh :)

[bobdadruma]

spantney, Im kind of like you except its cymbals that I add and subtract the most.
Im happy with a four or five piece kit, but I like to play different amounts of cymbals. Some days I play only three and I crash my rides, Some days I like to set up seven or eight crashes and multiple rides.

It doesn't bother me when I see a novice player with an expensive kit. It kind of amuses me. I think this to myself, "If he only knew that a cheap kit plays just as well as an expensive one!"
I then laugh to myself.

[spantney]

spantney, Im kind of like you except its cymbals that I add and subtract the most.
Im happy with a four or five piece kit, but I like to play different amounts of cymbals. Some days I play only three and I crash my rides, Some days I like to set up seven or eight crashes and multiple rides.

It doesn't bother me when I see a novice player with an expensive kit. It kind of amuses me. I think this to myself, "If he only knew that a cheap kit plays just as well as an expensive one!"
I then laugh to myself.

I know exactly what you mean, I do the same thing with cymbals too. I think having variety from week to week is a helpful tool for developing creativity. For instance sometimes playing a fill using 3 different crashes may sound cool, but the next week, if I've only got 2 crashes I may try the same fill using both crashes and the bell of the ride or something, and that may sound even better. Same with drums. Playing a groove or fill between a few toms and then not having them there next week gets your brain working to constantly come up with new ideas or new ways of trying things!

7 or 8 crashes is pretty insane....I tip my hat to you. I play 4 sometimes and I thought that was a lot!

[bobdadruma]

7 or 8 crashes is pretty insane....I tip my hat to you. I play 4 sometimes and I thought that was a lot!It's not as insane as twelve drums. I don't do this often. Once of twice a year! Every now and then I like to set up a whole bunch of crash pies and smack the heck out of them. I don't gig like this! The most at a gig is five crashes and two rides with a five piece kit.
My highest amount of cymbals for a normal gig set up is four crashes (one is a splash) and two rides.

[mattsmith]

I know some do it very well, but the big kit has never been for me. I've always played 4 pieces, a ride, a crash and some hi-hats. I once had a 7" splash and I just felt like I was going out of the way to get it in there. So I got rid of it. Then I added a china cymbal and that lasted about 15 minutes.

To me, I've never felt I had investigated all the possibilities on the kit I already had. There are a million different ways to play just one drum. The thought of adding more pieces just always seems to get in the way of that. This is just me.

[Coldhardsteel]

Wargarble? lol.

I don't want to be controversial but it's just how I see things.

Steel ... having more pieces increases your options, yes. And sure, more strings on a guitar will give you more options. Just that you'd normally see a guitarist playing a guitar with less than six strings as being hamstrung (no pun intended) whereas I doubt Papa Jo felt limited on his four-piece. If he was playing with Meshuggah, he might though.

BTW guys, this isn't a cue to find some obscure guitarist who vacillated between 4 and 5 string guitars :)

Neither analogy is quite right in hindsight, but the point is that extra pieces give you extra options. I'd see metal as the only style where a four-piece kit with a good drummer behind it won't cut it, and even then if there was a double pedal ...

I recently added an 8" tom to my kit too and think of its role similarly to you. I like having a high-pitched "woody" sound in the kit apart from the snare with strainers turned off. I love the way it adds colour to the music.

I guess I'm option oriented then. I like having options, but my drumming philosophy kind of goes against trap kits... Blergh, I can't see myself in that situation.

I think that if having more pieces in a kit adds color, then that's good. I've said before that I intentionally tune my toms that are consecutive to each other in harmony with another, so double hits sound pretty awesome. Like playing timpanis.

I think the metal thing is true, to an extent, but that exception is only true if you treat the 'core' genres as metal, because every single one of them are four or five piecers. It erks me immensely.

Now, the guitar analogy does have weight, but I'm going to keep trying at it- A group of nu-metal guitarists are seven string players, which is normally a sign of being a technical player. So, if that has anything to do with drums, then a guy with more toms who uses his kit right should have easy justification for the size of his kit.

I think that's still not good enough, but I tried.

[Pollyanna]

I guess I'm option oriented then. I like having options, but my drumming philosophy kind of goes against trap kits... Blergh, I can't see myself in that situation.

I think that if having more pieces in a kit adds color, then that's good. I've said before that I intentionally tune my toms that are consecutive to each other in harmony with another, so double hits sound pretty awesome. Like playing timpanis.

I think the metal thing is true, to an extent, but that exception is only true if you treat the 'core' genres as metal, because every single one of them are four or five piecers. It erks me immensely.

Now, the guitar analogy does have weight, but I'm going to keep trying at it- A group of nu-metal guitarists are seven string players, which is normally a sign of being a technical player. So, if that has anything to do with drums, then a guy with more toms who uses his kit right should have easy justification for the size of his kit.

I think that's still not good enough, but I tried.

As I say, Steel, I have no opinion on the large v small kit thing, at least not a judgemental one. If a larger kit makes people happy it's none of my business.
As for the analogy, I agree that more strings = more options just as more drums/cymbals = more options. I justed to dispel any idea that a basic four-piece kit is in any way an incomplete instrument.

I like tom chords too. I used to do a thing in the descending line in White Room where I'd play mounted and floor tom together and gradually reduce volume on the mounted and increase volume on the floor to create simple descending chords that seemed to work with the music. If I had 8 toms I could have shifted to lower toms but I didn't so I was forced to be resourceful. I enjoy trying to get as much as I can out of limited resources - I do it in graphics too. I think that's my father's influence, who experienced some tough times as a wartime refugee. He was always very big on getting the most out of what he had.

As always, in the big and small thread debates, the issue is that we have two ways of increasing our range - either with more pieces or playing the pieces you have differently, as per Matt's comment "There are a million different ways to play just one drum".

There's a helluva lot that I can't do with one drum so I'd feel a bit extravagant and shallow if I bought more drums when I've barely scratched the surface of my existing kit's possibilities. That's just me, not saying that others are extravagant and shallow for having extra drums. If you're playing loud music a lot of the subtle nuances you can achieve in softer music are far less available, so extra pieces in a kit makes sense ... especially if there aren't a lot of instruments (ie. a drummer in a loud five piece guitar band has more colourist responsibilities than a big band drummer who is already surrounded by a sea of timbres).

[JPW]

I know some do it very well, but the big kit has never been for me. I've always played 4 pieces, a ride, a crash and some hi-hats. I once had a 7" splash and I just felt like I was going out of the way to get it in there. So I got rid of it. Then I added a china cymbal and that lasted about 15 minutes.

To me, I've never felt I had investigated all the possibilities on the kit I already had. There are a million different ways to play just one drum. The thought of adding more pieces just always seems to get in the way of that. This is just me.

I'm going to buy a new kit very soon and it will most propably be a 4-piece kit. What I'm worrying about though is that I'm such a melodic player that I don't have enough options when trying to follow the melodic shape of the song. When ever I crash or use toms I want it to sound exactly right for the overall sound of the song and I'm having trouble listening to myself if I don't have enough options to do that.

[Brundlefly]

look if you have a big drum kit please break it down to a four peace just for a week, you
will feel the creativity flow.

This is SO true

Bernhard

Only for people for whom a larger kit somehow inhibits their creativity. Personally, I think there is a perfect size for every drummer. For some it is 4, others 5 or maybe 7 and for a precious few it is something unusual like 2 or maybe 18. And this "magic" size can change over the course of one's life or their musical project's individual progression. It can get bigger or smaller.

Sometimes, people play in one size longer than they should or perhaps never quite stumbled upon their magic number before. Then they finally do switch sizes, find that it feels better for them and instantly proclaim that number to be superior to all others in a general sense. Untrue. It is a common failing of the human experience that we think we can map our personal experiences equally to all people. It's almost arrogant on some level.

Further, suggesting that someone cannot grove because their kit is too large is, well... it's a bit far fetched, really. I would sooner believe that your kit's color or smell would have such an effect. I cannot think of one great drummer who said "Grove comes from your hardware. Be sure not to buy too much or you will play like crap." What I have heard nearly every great drummer say is something to the effect of, "Grove comes from within. You have to feel it. Get it inside you."

My grove certainly doesn't change when I jump from my 18 piece to my 5 - which is probably because it is still me playing. Good or bad, the credit for a person's playing belongs to them. A good reason to question the motives of anyone who would translate said credit to drum kit choice.

[Pollyanna]

Personally, I think there is a perfect size for every drummer. For some it is 4, others 5 or maybe 7 and for a precious few it is something unusual like 2 or maybe 18. And this "magic" size can change over the course of one's life or their musical project's individual progression. It can get bigger or smaller.

This rings true to me.


I'm going to buy a new kit very soon and it will most propably be a 4-piece kit. What I'm worrying about though is that I'm such a melodic player that I don't have enough options when trying to follow the melodic shape of the song. When ever I crash or use toms I want it to sound exactly right for the overall sound of the song and I'm having trouble listening to myself if I don't have enough options to do that.

The way I see it, everything that is melodic about our playing on a drum kit is an approximation - even a guy like Jim Tyler - unless we have a xylophone etc as part of the kit like Neil P. The smaller the kit, the more approximate the melody. It's all relative within the kit.

Still, as Brundlefly suggested, horses for courses.

[JPW]

The way I see it, everything that is melodic about our playing on a drum kit is an approximation - even a guy like Jim Tyler - unless we have a xylophone etc as part of the kit like Neil P. The smaller the kit, the more approximate the melody. It's all relative within the kit.

Still, as Brundlefly suggested, horses for courses.

Yes, of course it's all relative. But I don't feel satisfied for example if whole band plays three accents going from up to middle to low and I only have 2 different cymbals to crash. Simple example I know but that's how I feel. Other issue is the 'colour' of the sound of the cymbal. For a band that has mostly same kind of tunes it's not such a big deal. But we have so many different types of melodic things happening not one single color can paint it all. Yes, I'm also a perfectionist =S

That said, I'm trying to always keep my kit _as small as possible_ for logistical reasons. But sometimes I fail and I make my kit too small. The big kit is only a logistical issue. I don't feel it makes me less creative. Maybe I concentrate more on orchestrations rather than rudiments but I'm still making about the same amount of creative decisions per minute, if that's how we could define being creative on an instrument.

[Pollyanna]

Yes, of course it's all relative. But I don't feel satisfied for example if whole band plays three accents going from up to middle to low and I only have 2 different cymbals to crash. Simple example I know but that's how I feel. Other issue is the 'colour' of the sound of the cymbal. For a band that has mostly same kind of tunes it's not such a big deal. But we have so many different types of melodic things happening not one single color can paint it all. Yes, I'm also a perfectionist =S

That said, I'm trying to always keep my kit _as small as possible_ for logistical reasons. But sometimes I fail and I make my kit too small. The big kit is only a logistical issue. I don't feel it makes me less creative. Maybe I concentrate more on orchestrations rather than rudiments but I'm still making about the same amount of creative decisions per minute, if that's how we could define being creative on an instrument.

If ya ain't satisfied with a little one then ya ain't satisfied. Nothing that can be done but to haul all the pieces around ... set down, carry to car, carry from car, set up, play, set down, carry to car, carry from car ... again and again and again ... day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade ...

Meanwhile the singer waltzes in ten minutes before time, carrying a small folder with the set list and lyrics lol

[Coldhardsteel]

Only for people for whom a larger kit somehow inhibits their creativity. Personally, I think there is a perfect size for every drummer. For some it is 4, others 5 or maybe 7 and for a precious few it is something unusual like 2 or maybe 18. And this "magic" size can change over the course of one's life or their musical project's individual progression. It can get bigger or smaller.

Sometimes, people play in one size longer than they should or perhaps never quite stumbled upon their magic number before. Then they finally do switch sizes, find that it feels better for them and instantly proclaim that number to be superior to all others in a general sense. Untrue. It is a common failing of the human experience that we think we can map our personal experiences equally to all people. It's almost arrogant on some level.

Further, suggesting that someone cannot grove because their kit is too large is, well... it's a bit far fetched, really. I would sooner believe that your kit's color or smell would have such an effect. I cannot think of one great drummer who said "Grove comes from your hardware. Be sure not to buy too much or you will play like crap." What I have heard nearly every great drummer say is something to the effect of, "Grove comes from within. You have to feel it. Get it inside you."

My grove certainly doesn't change when I jump from my 18 piece to my 5 - which is probably because it is still me playing. Good or bad, the credit for a person's playing belongs to them. A good reason to question the motives of anyone who would translate said credit to drum kit choice.

My number seems to be floating somewhere between six and seven. But the individualism for each kit is important, like you say Brundlefly. There is no such thing as a one size fits all situation, like everything else in life.

This rings true to me.

The way I see it, everything that is melodic about our playing on a drum kit is an approximation - even a guy like Jim Tyler - unless we have a xylophone etc as part of the kit like Neil P. The smaller the kit, the more approximate the melody. It's all relative within the kit.

Still, as Brundlefly suggested, horses for courses.

Ugh, I shiver at the thought of some sort of keys instrument in my kit... Bleck.

[JPW]

If ya ain't satisfied with a little one then ya ain't satisfied. Nothing that can be done but to haul all the pieces around ... set down, carry to car, carry from car, set up, play, set down, carry to car, carry from car ... again and again and again ... day after day, month after month, year after year, decade after decade ...

Meanwhile the singer waltzes in ten minutes before time, carrying a small folder with the set list and lyrics lol

Luckily I have the authority to order my band mates to help me on these issues =)

[Pollyanna]

Luckily I have the authority to order my band mates to help me on these issues =)

Do they know enough to help setting up and pulling down? My current singer is the first one ever to help me with lugging but when it comes to setup and breakdown, his limit is helping put the kick drum in its case. The other guys help with carrying too; I'm spoiled these days, but I like to get there early to get set up so I'm on my own there. I always think about how I'm burning calories to help me through.

Ugh, I shiver at the thought of some sort of keys instrument in my kit... Bleck.

Hehe, I'd love it but I'd only consider adding percussive allsorts if I had a roadie, and that's not going to happen.

[zakhopper316]

Only for people for whom a larger kit somehow inhibits their creativity. Personally, I think there is a perfect size for every drummer. For some it is 4, others 5 or maybe 7 and for a precious few it is something unusual like 2 or maybe 18. And this "magic" size can change over the course of one's life or their musical project's individual progression. It can get bigger or smaller.

Sometimes, people play in one size longer than they should or perhaps never quite stumbled upon their magic number before. Then they finally do switch sizes, find that it feels better for them and instantly proclaim that number to be superior to all others in a general sense. Untrue. It is a common failing of the human experience that we think we can map our personal experiences equally to all people. It's almost arrogant on some level.

Further, suggesting that someone cannot grove because their kit is too large is, well... it's a bit far fetched, really. I would sooner believe that your kit's color or smell would have such an effect. I cannot think of one great drummer who said "Grove comes from your hardware. Be sure not to buy too much or you will play like crap." What I have heard nearly every great drummer say is something to the effect of, "Grove comes from within. You have to feel it. Get it inside you."

My grove certainly doesn't change when I jump from my 18 piece to my 5 - which is probably because it is still me playing. Good or bad, the credit for a person's playing belongs to them. A good reason to question the motives of anyone who would translate said credit to drum kit choice.

i think you have the wrong idea, its not that they cant groove because they have a large kit,
its that they have a huge kit and have not even learned to groove yet, i don't think first and second year players need a huge kit to learn 8th note drum beats, they dont even know their style yet, or what setup best fits there playing.

and second, me and Bernhard are indeed correct. it doesn't matter how big your kit is, if you have a 4 piece and cut it down to hi hat bass and snare you will become more creative, same with a 10 piece. this is a common practice exercise used by drum teachers and music schools everywhere. its tried and true and works great for building creativity, i do it on a regular basis, ask your drum teacher about it if you have one, he might put it into your practice schedule.

[JPW]

Do they know enough to help setting up and pulling down? My current singer is the first one ever to help me with lugging but when it comes to setup and breakdown, his limit is helping put the kick drum in its case. The other guys help with carrying too; I'm spoiled these days, but I like to get there early to get set up so I'm on my own there. I always think about how I'm burning calories to help me through.


Well, I let them do all the easy things that they can't mess up (and they are intelligent people who respond to teaching well ;P). And even if they do something a bit wrong and I have to correct it, it's still faster for all of us. We know each other so well that we can trust others won't break anything (our guitarist is my cousin and been like one of my best friends all my life).

[Aeolian]

I guess I'm option oriented then. I like having options, but my drumming philosophy kind of goes against trap kits...
Curious, what do you consider a "trap" kit? Is that your term for an old school 4 piece? The term comes from early jazz drummers adding more and more devices to their kit, creating a huge "contraption". The bigger the kit, the more of a contraption (traps) it is.

I think that if having more pieces in a kit adds color, then that's good. I've said before that I intentionally tune my toms that are consecutive to each other in harmony with another, so double hits sound pretty awesome. Like playing timpanis.
The issue I personally have with that is that unless nothing else is going on, most of the subtlties between "colors" get washed out. I loved the phrase Hawaii 5-0 intro. All those "melodic" pitches just wash together into a blur in an overall musical context. Especially when constant figure fills are run sequentially across a "melodic" set of toms.

Yes, of course it's all relative. But I don't feel satisfied for example if whole band plays three accents going from up to middle to low and I only have 2 different cymbals to crash. Other issue is the 'colour' of the sound of the cymbal. For a band that has mostly same kind of tunes it's not such a big deal. But we have so many different types of melodic things happening not one single color can paint it all.
How about not using a crash cymbal on one of the hits? Maybe open hi-hats, or even a drum. I remember a very good local heavyweight telling me about listing to playback on a session and he realized he was over using crash cymbals. He said that all he heard was this splash, splash, splash over everything. Remember, with all the other mid and upper mid frequency stuff happening in a song, cymbals tend to sound like white noise. The subtle "colors" between two different 18" crashes won't make much difference in the song. And they can very easily fill up so much space that there sounds like a dense mix one moment and sparseness the next.



As someone who does live sound and occasionally plays in multi-band festivals, there is nothing more annoying than trying to get a changeover when folks are bringing the kitchen sink to the gig. Guitarists with a million pedals not attached to a pedalboard and prewired, but strung all over the stage. Same thing with drummers and the Bozio mega-kits. Higher level festivals are backline. Time wasted on your changeover is time out of your set. Ending times are set. Start times are up to having your act together. Only on the big varsity festivals/concerts are things preset on risers and swapped out quickly.

I agree that more things is distracting when learning an instrument. And, especially with youth, it's unfortunately fairly common for people to substitute more things to hit for learning more about how to hit the things they have. It can slow a musician's development if they are paying more attention to what pedal to step on, or which drum/cymbal to hit, than they are to the song. On a guitar forum I participate in, you can read about folks spending all kinds of effort to "nail" the sound someone got on a particular recording. Which leads to this huge pile of pedals on the floor as they need this one, and this one and this one, for this song, and that one and that one and that one, for that song. Whereas someone with good tone production could get all the necessary sounds out of just a few effects.

Same thing with drums. If all folks do is bury the stick in something, then they are only going to get one "color" out of it. And thus the "need" for more things to get more colors. Whereas someone with good tone production can take a well chosen handfull of things and get all the necessary sounds for the music from them. Maybe this crash doesn't sound exactly like the crash on the record. But are you going to tie things up changing crashes between songs? Or tie up the rest of the band and other bands on the bill while you set up/break down 15 cymbals so you can have exactly the right "color" for each song?

From the recording standpoint, I would definitely charge by the hour. Or you can have a lower fixed rate for recording on house stuff. It can take hours to get a great recorded drum sound. Even with good sounding drums. The advantage of the house kit is that you already have it mic'd, know how to get it to sound good, and it's off and running. The 16 year olds (and their bankers, mommy and daddy) can decide if they want to spend 4 hours setting up and dialing in their drums or just go with what your studio has (which is what a lot of pros do). Also, you can list your mic locker and outboard (or reasonable limits on how many effects you want to run concurrently in Pro Tools) so that people realize going in that they may not have the use of 10 channels of gate and compression for all their toms unless they want to fund renting some.

[zakhopper316]

Curious, what do you consider a "trap" kit? Is that your term for an old school 4 piece? The term comes from early jazz drummers adding more and more devices to their kit, creating a huge "contraption". The bigger the kit, the more of a contraption (traps) it is.


The issue I personally have with that is that unless nothing else is going on, most of the subtlties between "colors" get washed out. I loved the phrase Hawaii 5-0 intro. All those "melodic" pitches just wash together into a blur in an overall musical context. Especially when constant figure fills are run sequentially across a "melodic" set of toms.


How about not using a crash cymbal on one of the hits? Maybe open hi-hats, or even a drum. I remember a very good local heavyweight telling me about listing to playback on a session and he realized he was over using crash cymbals. He said that all he heard was this splash, splash, splash over everything. Remember, with all the other mid and upper mid frequency stuff happening in a song, cymbals tend to sound like white noise. The subtle "colors" between two different 18" crashes won't make much difference in the song. And they can very easily fill up so much space that there sounds like a dense mix one moment and sparseness the next.



As someone who does live sound and occasionally plays in multi-band festivals, there is nothing more annoying than trying to get a changeover when folks are bringing the kitchen sink to the gig. Guitarists with a million pedals not attached to a pedalboard and prewired, but strung all over the stage. Same thing with drummers and the Bozio mega-kits. Higher level festivals are backline. Time wasted on your changeover is time out of your set. Ending times are set. Start times are up to having your act together. Only on the big varsity festivals/concerts are things preset on risers and swapped out quickly.

I agree that more things is distracting when learning an instrument. And, especially with youth, it's unfortunately fairly common for people to substitute more things to hit for learning more about how to hit the things they have. It can slow a musician's development if they are paying more attention to what pedal to step on, or which drum/cymbal to hit, than they are to the song. On a guitar forum I participate in, you can read about folks spending all kinds of effort to "nail" the sound someone got on a particular recording. Which leads to this huge pile of pedals on the floor as they need this one, and this one and this one, for this song, and that one and that one and that one, for that song. Whereas someone with good tone production could get all the necessary sounds out of just a few effects.

Same thing with drums. If all folks do is bury the stick in something, then they are only going to get one "color" out of it. And thus the "need" for more things to get more colors. Whereas someone with good tone production can take a well chosen handfull of things and get all the necessary sounds for the music from them. Maybe this crash doesn't sound exactly like the crash on the record. But are you going to tie things up changing crashes between songs? Or tie up the rest of the band and other bands on the bill while you set up/break down 15 cymbals so you can have exactly the right "color" for each song?

From the recording standpoint, I would definitely charge by the hour. Or you can have a lower fixed rate for recording on house stuff. It can take hours to get a great recorded drum sound. Even with good sounding drums. The advantage of the house kit is that you already have it mic'd, know how to get it to sound good, and it's off and running. The 16 year olds (and their bankers, mommy and daddy) can decide if they want to spend 4 hours setting up and dialing in their drums or just go with what your studio has (which is what a lot of pros do). Also, you can list your mic locker and outboard (or reasonable limits on how many effects you want to run concurrently in Pro Tools) so that people realize going in that they may not have the use of 10 channels of gate and compression for all their toms unless they want to fund renting some.

ahmen to that buddy.!!.

[zakhopper316]

Well, I let them do all the easy things that they can't mess up (and they are intelligent people who respond to teaching well ;P). And even if they do something a bit wrong and I have to correct it, it's still faster for all of us. We know each other so well that we can trust others won't break anything (our guitarist is my cousin and been like one of my best friends all my life).

band mates are a drummers best friend, they can turn a 20 minute unload into a 5 minute unload if there is 4 or 5 of them.

[con struct]

I guess I'm option oriented then. I like having options, but my drumming philosophy kind of goes against trap kits... Blergh, I can't see myself in that situation.

From Wikipedia:

"A drum kit (also drum set, kit, or trap set) is a collections of drums, cymbals and often other percussion instruments, such as cowbells, wood blocks, triangles, chimes, or tambourines, arranged for convenient playing by a single person (drummer)."

[Pollyanna]

Same thing with drums. If all folks do is bury the stick in something, then they are only going to get one "color" out of it. And thus the "need" for more things to get more colors. Whereas someone with good tone production can take a well chosen handfull of things and get all the necessary sounds for the music from them. Maybe this crash doesn't sound exactly like the crash on the record. But are you going to tie things up changing crashes between songs? Or tie up the rest of the band and other bands on the bill while you set up/break down 15 cymbals so you can have exactly the right "color" for each song?

Excellent post, Aeolian.

Just one proviso I'd add, as per an earlier post, "If you're playing loud music a lot of the subtle nuances you can achieve in softer music are far less available ...". Well, they are still available but they probably won't be heard enough to significantly add colour to a song.

I'm pretty sure that if we did a straw poll of people who prefer large or small kits, the groups would separate pretty neatly between those who play softer and louder music, and the louder music would generally be stadium rock, prog or metal.

[JPW]

How about not using a crash cymbal on one of the hits? Maybe open hi-hats, or even a drum. I remember a very good local heavyweight telling me about listing to playback on a session and he realized he was over using crash cymbals. He said that all he heard was this splash, splash, splash over everything. Remember, with all the other mid and upper mid frequency stuff happening in a song, cymbals tend to sound like white noise. The subtle "colors" between two different 18" crashes won't make much difference in the song. And they can very easily fill up so much space that there sounds like a dense mix one moment and sparseness the next.


It was a very very simple example to make my point clear. But why is it that rudimental/rythmic decisions > orchestrational decisions? Wasn't "the right sound at the right place" our job? Where did half of that go? I have ALWAYS really loved to listen to drummers who have more than one cymbal in their arsenal. It's not about what the kit looks like, it's purely the sound. And from my perspective you are just wrong about cymbal colors not affecting the song. And never ever expect I'm just one of those 'kids' who just like to crash for no reason. I'm not like that.


As someone who does live sound and occasionally plays in multi-band festivals, there is nothing more annoying than trying to get a changeover when folks are bringing the kitchen sink to the gig. Guitarists with a million pedals not attached to a pedalboard and prewired, but strung all over the stage. Same thing with drummers and the Bozio mega-kits. Higher level festivals are backline. Time wasted on your changeover is time out of your set. Ending times are set. Start times are up to having your act together. Only on the big varsity festivals/concerts are things preset on risers and swapped out quickly.


Yes, other's being different is annoying. Isn't it annoying that you have to make that vegan food for the one guy who decided he just want's to be annoying when your friends come to eat dinner at your house?

The thing again is, and has been before, my background. I have watched my dad's band play and rehearse almost 30 years now, they have been all over europe with a band whose every instrument they have was made by them. The drum kit is very exotic, no snare but they have bass drum and hi-hat these days. A china and I suppose a crash but other than that the cymbals are self hammered or are just random stuff found in trash that sound good. I suppose they were gigging in europe just to annoy people. I suppose Max Roach was really pissed when he sent them a letter back then. ;)



I agree that more things is distracting when learning an instrument. And, especially with youth, it's unfortunately fairly common for people to substitute more things to hit for learning more about how to hit the things they have. It can slow a musician's development if they are paying more attention to what pedal to step on, or which drum/cymbal to hit, than they are to the song. On a guitar forum I participate in, you can read about folks spending all kinds of effort to "nail" the sound someone got on a particular recording. Which leads to this huge pile of pedals on the floor as they need this one, and this one and this one, for this song, and that one and that one and that one, for that song. Whereas someone with good tone production could get all the necessary sounds out of just a few effects.


So now it's a "for the children"-argument? How many kids are even contributing in this thread right now? How important do you think it is for a kid to first love his/her instrument?
I agree that you can easily derail in to the never ending gear syndrome, but what ever gets the kid play, right? And yes, someone who has more experience can propably play all the stuff I play with his hi-hat but he's also 300 years old.

There was this thread not too long ago with the jazz pianist explaining the approach he has on learning to play and I completely agree with it and this situation is analogous. First phase in musicians development is to play as many notes as possible for his vision to come clear. Then he cuts down the amount notes for the rest of his life. But sometimes there's people (usually older) who tell younger people to skip that 'notey' phase because they think it's not important, but every great musician has lived through that 'notey' phase at some point. How do you know what to play if you don't know what is possible to play? And I think only Miles Davis has gotten to the 'one note'-phase. xP

Same thing with big kits. I love to test different sound sources on big kits and try to cut down the number of intruments from there. If I don't have a recording of my self doing a fill over 10 different splashes how can I say it sounds horrible? (tbh, I have never really heard myself play anything good with small splashes, but some guys pull that off too, so it seems it's my fault or authority thing)


Same thing with drums. If all folks do is bury the stick in something, then they are only going to get one "color" out of it. And thus the "need" for more things to get more colors. Whereas someone with good tone production can take a well chosen handfull of things and get all the necessary sounds for the music from them. Maybe this crash doesn't sound exactly like the crash on the record. But are you going to tie things up changing crashes between songs? Or tie up the rest of the band and other bands on the bill while you set up/break down 15 cymbals so you can have exactly the right "color" for each song?


What if one has good tone production AND a lot of cymbals? Purchasing cymbals isn't that time consuming that you just immediately don't have time to practice your instrument anymore. Why 15? What's the limit?

[Brundlefly]

i think you have the wrong idea, its not that they cant groove because they have a large kit, its that they have a huge kit and have not even learned to groove yet, i don't think first and second year players need a huge kit to learn 8th note drum beats.

What does "need" have to do with it? Once you step beyond a bass, snare and hats, you've totally bypassed need. First year players don't even need a kit, truthfully. But why hoist such dogmatic requirements upon people who are trying to explore their instrument and, above all else, have some fun? This idea that drummers must pass some ill defined litmus test in order to be granted permission to depart from the great bell curve of musical conformity is absurd.

they dont even know their style yet, or what setup best fits there playing.

And I suppose they are going to figure that stuff out by following your predetermined system of imposed restriction?

and second, me and Bernhard are indeed correct. it doesn't matter how big your kit is, if you have a 4 piece and cut it down to hi hat bass and snare you will become more creative, same with a 10 piece. this is a common practice exercise used by drum teachers and music schools everywhere. its tried and true and works great for building creativity, i do it on a regular basis, ask your drum teacher about it if you have one, he might put it into your practice schedule.

I play both 5 and 18 piece kits. I am equally creative on both and I've never found the smaller kit to be some panacea for creative flow. The fact is that the size change does not make you more creative than you were before. Sure, change of any kind will spark ideas but that effect isn't predicated on reduction alone. It works in either direction and laterally as well.

[JPW]

What does "need" have to do with it? Once you step beyond a bass, snare and hats, you've totally bypassed need. First year players don't even need a kit, truthfully. But why hoist such dogmatic requirements upon people who are trying to explore their instrument and, above all else, have some fun? This idea that drummers must pass some ill defined litmus test in order to be granted permission to depart from the great bell curve of musical conformity is absurd.



And I suppose they are going to figure that stuff out by following your predetermined system of imposed restriction?



I play both 5 and 18 piece kits. I am equally creative on both and I've never found the smaller kit to be some panacea for creative flow. The fact is that the size change does not make you more creative than you were before. Sure, change of any kind will spark ideas but that effect isn't predicated on reduction alone. It works in either direction and laterally as well.

Great post, and I agree 100%.

[Arrold]

With my change of style and attitude towards drums, I will be going from a 6-piece kit to a 4-piece kit.

I personally have no problem with people who have big drum kits, as it's just a way to express themselves with more sounds at their disposal. I know plenty of people here disagree with this, and they think that big=bad. But it's just how things go; some men like their women skin n' bones, some like them athletic, some like them curvey, and some like them BIG.

Personally, I have found myself needing four toms less and less. In fact, I have taken two of them off due to my experimenting with my set-up. Now that I'm utilizing an "ambidexterity exercise kit" (heh), I have my ride right in front of me, two hi-hats on either side, crashes on either side, and a tom on either side.

The size of your kit = your taste and style. Sorry, but I don't see why anyone has such a problem with big kits.

[Bram]

The size of your kit = your taste and style. Sorry, but I don't see why anyone has such a problem with big kits.

I agree with that.
I play a 7 piece kit with a ride, 1 hi hat, 2 crashes, a splash and a few cut down effect cymbals when I play with my band.
Sometimes I scale down to 4 piece, or even just bass snare hats and a splash.
I don't think you are more creative, but I play different when I play a small kit.
Because you don't have toms, you have to do different things on your snare and hats as a fill. I don't understand why you are 'more creative' when you fill in on just snare and hats, than on 4, 5, or 6 toms.

Bram

[MikeM]

What does "need" have to do with it? Once you step beyond a bass, snare and hats, you've totally bypassed need. First year players don't even need a kit, truthfully. But why hoist such dogmatic requirements upon people who are trying to explore their instrument and, above all else, have some fun? This idea that drummers must pass some ill defined litmus test in order to be granted permission to depart from the great bell curve of musical conformity is absurd.



And I suppose they are going to figure that stuff out by following your predetermined system of imposed restriction?



I play both 5 and 18 piece kits. I am equally creative on both and I've never found the smaller kit to be some panacea for creative flow. The fact is that the size change does not make you more creative than you were before. Sure, change of any kind will spark ideas but that effect isn't predicated on reduction alone. It works in either direction and laterally as well.

Great post, and I agree 100%.
+2

20202020202020202020

[zakhopper316]

What does "need" have to do with it? Once you step beyond a bass, snare and hats, you've totally bypassed need. First year players don't even need a kit, truthfully. But why hoist such dogmatic requirements upon people who are trying to explore their instrument and, above all else, have some fun? This idea that drummers must pass some ill defined litmus test in order to be granted permission to depart from the great bell curve of musical conformity is absurd.


And I suppose they are going to figure that stuff out by following your predetermined system of imposed restriction?



I play both 5 and 18 piece kits. I am equally creative on both and I've never found the smaller kit to be some panacea for creative flow. The fact is that the size change does not make you more creative than you were before. Sure, change of any kind will spark ideas but that effect isn't predicated on reduction alone. It works in either direction and laterally as well.

why? because they take three days to track song on a big kit at 60 dollars a day when a band with a small kit takes 1 and i half to 2 days. and its not per hour, thats why.

and hey im all ears buddy , if all they need is a practice pad then they have way way way more then they need with the 10 pieces. i would be soo happy if we had a rule at the studio where there was only a complete 5 piece and less. theres no way around a 5 piece kit as the standard.

and as far as drumming conformity, i think it would be the best thing that could happen in drumming. it would make creativity pure and true to drumming. everyone making different sounds with the same set up is true creativity. you would be known for what matters, only your playing, not know for junk like having a 45 inch ride cymbal or having 12 pedals.
it will be like the jazz era, purest, most original drumming era to date.

and as far as cutting your kit to boost creativity, it true bottom line, you can argue with the forum creator and all the members, ask around to drum teachers about it. it does force you to be more resourceful with only a snare bass and hi hat.

[zakhopper316]

With my change of style and attitude towards drums, I will be going from a 6-piece kit to a 4-piece kit.

I personally have no problem with people who have big drum kits, as it's just a way to express themselves with more sounds at their disposal. I know plenty of people here disagree with this, and they think that big=bad. But it's just how things go; some men like their women skin n' bones, some like them athletic, some like them curvey, and some like them BIG.

Personally, I have found myself needing four toms less and less. In fact, I have taken two of them off due to my experimenting with my set-up. Now that I'm utilizing an "ambidexterity exercise kit" (heh), I have my ride right in front of me, two hi-hats on either side, crashes on either side, and a tom on either side.

The size of your kit = your taste and style. Sorry, but I don't see why anyone has such a problem with big kits.

i dont have a problem with just big kits, i have a problem with beginners with big kits that i see having trouble progress because all they focus on is hitting every drum as fast as they can, and playing double bass as fast as they can.

its like giving a ferrari to a 15 year old who just got his driving permit.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

why? because they take three days to track song on a big kit at 60 dollars a day when a band with a small kit takes 1 and i half to 2 days. and its not per hour, thats why.


I said this earlier. What would you prefer....a big kit in your studio for three days work at full pay ($180) or a small kit in and out after a day and a half ($90)? This to me is a no brainer.....and you don't need to be Warren Buffett to see the financial merits here.

It's your business my friend. Get 'em in, track 'em, mix 'em, give 'em their CD and take their money. This is it mate....this is what you wanted to do for a vocation. You chose recording, if it bothers you so badly, bail....pretty simple really.

You sure you really wanna do this for a living?

[MikeM]

and as far as drumming conformity, i think it would be the best thing that could happen in drumming. it would make creativity pure and true to drumming. everyone making different sounds with the same set up is true creativity. you would be known for what matters, only your playing, not know for junk like having a 45 inch ride cymbal or having 12 pedals.
it will be like the jazz era, purest, most original drumming era to date.

and as far as cutting your kit to boost creativity, it true bottom line, you can argue with the forum creator and all the members, ask around to drum teachers about it. it does force you to be more resourceful with only a snare bass and hi hat.Wow, there's just no getting another POV to you, is there? If you think that conformity of drumkits is a good thing, then I think you're missing the whole point of the drumming exercise. If you think that a particular sub-genre of one part of the jazz era was music's purest form, then you are so completely biased, I don't know how anyone could possibly take you seriously.

You seem to have conveniently ignored Brundlefly's point about "need" and FUN. Obviously, those concepts haven't yet registered with your 20 year old brain. For most of us, that's all there is is fun. You should look that up sometime. (Hint: it's not in any of your drumming texts)

[zakhopper316]

I said this earlier. What would you prefer....a big kit in your studio for three days work at full pay ($180) or a small kit in and out after a day and a half ($90)? This to me is a no brainer.....and you don't need to be Warren Buffett to see the financial merits here.

It's your business my friend. Get 'em in, track 'em, mix 'em, give 'em their CD and take their money. This is it mate....this is what you wanted to do for a vocation. You chose recording, if it bothers you so badly, bail....pretty simple really.

You sure you really wanna do this for a living?

that would make sense your right but we are always booked in advanced, and i would rather have more projects on my resume so i can get a job at a real studio, and also the kids that come in with the big kits i cant use because they have nonstop dense drumming with no space on their tracks and even tho the drums are recorded well the songs are not something i would show when trying to get a job because the songs sound wrong due to the drumming.
if we had seasoned drummers come in with big kits it would be a different story, but they don't book basement studios apparently. im in the works of charging per hour so it wont be a problem, ill be on the clock for the 2 and a half hour set up shifting and micing.

[Aeolian]

Kind of two subjects going on here. One: if you are running a small scale demo studio, you are going to get your share of amateurs. Even at the mid levels you will get your share of rich amateurs. And you will mostly be dealing with clueless folks. A lot of people who know what they are doing will already have their own project studio. Unless you can offer more than they have at home. Once in awhile you'll get great musicians who can't be bothered with technology or setting up their own studio. Relish those occasions. They are the exception.

Another lucrative (depending on how well you can do it) amateur thing is songwriter demos. Someone comes in with some homemade tracks on a Casio or a cassette of them stumming a guitar and singing something they "wrote". You either set up some sequences or bring in your house band to put down some professional sounding tracks using the changes they had on their demo, and then the customer comes in and tracks the vocals on top of it. Maybe you go back with Mellodyne and help them out or add some harmonies. Lot of folks out there who think they have written the next great thing and are willing to fund whole projects of it.

And if it actually hits, you get production credit for it.

The other thing is the whole "eyes bigger than their stomach" thing where people substitute acquisitions for talent. Hey, that's what keeps the industry alive. There's volume but not much revenue in student instruments. And how many 6 nights a week playing at the corner bar for a living folks do you know who buy a brand new DW kit every 2 years? I don't know too many. Maybe if someone lands a regional tour they can get an artist consideration and get one nice kit. It's the weekend warriors with 6 figure day jobs that allow DW to support the touring pros. Some of them can play, come can't. That's just the way it is.

[zakhopper316]

Wow, there's just no getting another POV to you, is there? If you think that conformity of drumkits is a good thing, then I think you're missing the whole point of the drumming exercise. If you think that a particular sub-genre of one part of the jazz era was music's purest form, then you are so completely biased, I don't know how anyone could possibly take you seriously.

You seem to have conveniently ignored Brundlefly's point about "need" and FUN. Obviously, those concepts haven't yet registered with your 20 year old brain. For most of us, that's all there is is fun. You should look that up sometime. (Hint: it's not in any of your drumming texts)

i get it, i probably understand need the best, through recording i have i strong understanding of what different genres call for, ill tell you the best metal band i have recorded had a 7 piece kit with 5 cymbals. different drummers do need different things. your taking my point of kids just starting out with huge kits into something its not, unless his point of view is that beginners need 10 piece kits then i think i got his point of view better then you do. he said it the best, they don't even need a snare hi hat and bass drum.
all they need is a pair of sticks and a pad. pretty sure i got that in my last post.

and me voicing my opinion on my favorite time, genre and why only for you to say its bias is insulting to me. i have never once said anything about big kits IN GENERAL. im talking about a specific situation. did i ever say the word EVERYONE in this hole topic? did i ever say they should sell their big kits? am i judging things that have yet to come? no, i am talking about past experience in a specific situation. so maybe you should understand my point of view before you make judgments i have not made myself.

and as far as fun, drumming is fun for me, how i am taking away the fun? the truth is when these people come in to my studio and pay 60 dollars a day they have never once said we are paying you to have fun, they are serious and say we want to make the best album we can make,

and when the kids come in with a huge kit and don't no how to voice it to make the best album they can i see it as a problem because i am there to help them a achieve their goal.

did i ever say they should not play their large kits at their houses? or at a show? no, because it does not concern me, why would i care? did i ever say anything about people i have never met who play big kits? not one single time. would i play a big kit yes, this has nothing to do with hating big kits in general so get it right before you try to talk to me like i have not been listening to this conversation.

and if you dont agree with me then take it out on someone else. because i would never insult on a lack of intelligence.

[Kenny Allyn]

First let me say I personally have no feeling one way or the other as far as kit size...


If one knows how to play within the context of the tune ... I'm happy

Now by trade in a "band" situation I am the other half of the rhythm section i.e.: the Bass Player. My preference is for strong rhythmic playing rather than a more melodic approach.

I get to play “with” a lot of different drummers, one of the things I do, is work as house bassist at one of the local jams. At the jam we have a house kit usually 5 piece hats ride and two crashes … some of the jammers really only use the hats, snare, kick and a little ride, others use every bit of what is up there and would most likely sound great with more. However there are some that should stick to just the basics, as it’s obvious that playing even the 5 piece stretches the outer limits of their ability to stay focused …

By the way the more verses less strings debate is pretty quiet over in guitar land … but rages daily in bassville (just stray over to the talkbass forums)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/kennyallyn/misc/6vs4.jpg

The drummer that had the biggest affect on me played (insert drumroll) ONE drum ...

That's right ... at one time I dated a lady that ran a bellydance troupe, and at big shows we used a master doumbek drummer ... truly amazing what he could do!

[tkane]

Please check out and comment on my latest blog with photos and links on smaller versus larger drum kit assemblies. I cited many Drummerworld artist kits in my analysis.

http://inthehalls.wordpress.com/2010/08/02/the-benefits-of-smaller-and-larger-drum-kit-set-ups/

[Bo Eder]

I consider a 5 or 6 piece kit 'large'. I usually go in with 4 drums and a ride and a crash and hats. That's a small kit.

[Migaluch]

wow that was a nice article. I like this view on larger kits and how they can, in fact, be a good choice. Maybe not for actual gigs, but for expanding your creative juices and your ability to move around the kit. I bet after playing everything on such a large kit, switching to a 4 or 5 piece kit would be easy.

[ccsimms]

on another note, bobby jarzombek stated that a reason he likes to have so many cymbals is that for parts of the song that are cymbal heavy, crashing on the same cymbal too often for those fast passages looses it's attack, whereas crashing on many different ones will keep the attack lively. which is pretty logical if you ask me, plus alot of cats like to even out shells and cymbals but not everyone

[madidus]

I used to play kits that took me hours to set up. But as I got better, I went for smaller kits. I'm so good now that I play airdrums.

[Zeus Mutation]

This is a bit off topic but still in the same ballpark...

I'm a beginning drummer and I currently use an electronic set because I live in an apt. I have my set going through the BFD2 software, killer by the way, and I have not found a matching set that sounded like what I'm after. The only pieces that match are the crash & ride.
The question is if drummers choose sizes, brands, and drum heads ... tuned for "their" sound what difference does it make to have the same drum manufactured pieces .. except for the stand/connection needs? ...

I guess I'm confused because as much of an influence many great drummers are... I play for my sound and flavor. Who cares if I have a Neil Peart set or a 70s Bonham special? Who cares how big or small .. I thought drumming was about feel. I know two songs that are boringly easy to play but when you do it right is an incredible groove ... Back in Black and Billie Jean. Again, I'm new so this is the basis of my question.

Thanks

P.S. Big Kits look Awesome though .. all that good stuff to bang on!!

[Brundlefly]

I guess I'm confused because as much of an influence many great drummers are... I play for my sound and flavor. Who cares if I have a Neil Peart set or a 70s Bonham special? Who cares how big or small .. I thought drumming was about feel. I know two songs that are boringly easy to play but when you do it right is an incredible groove ... Back in Black and Billie Jean. Again, I'm new so this is the basis of my question.

Thanks

P.S. Big Kits look Awesome though .. all that good stuff to bang on!!

The truth is that it doesn't and shouldn't matter to anyone but you. What you mention is exactly what matters: your sound, your feel, your interests. But like all endeavors that involve a range of personalities with varying levels of maturity and perspective, there are a few folks so locked into their own point of view that they feel the need to attack anything that is different so that they can feel comfortable in their own choices or possibly to excuse their own need to conform.

Anyway... welcome to one of many dogma of drumming threads.

[Aeolian]

Who cares how big or small .. I thought drumming was about feel.
Last time I looked, drums, like the bass guitar, were part of the rhythm section. And playing any instrument should be about the music. You could play Billie Jean on a snare, kick and hat. In fact I've seen it done well by a killer drummer, David Tucker.

If it serves the song, it makes sense to have it as part of your contraption. Cowbell, wood block, effects cymbals, higher toms, lower toms, extra bass drum, etc.

My criteria is that it should serve the song, not the musician's ego.

[BuddyBeaufordGaddNeil]

Some guys say playing a really small kit forces you to rely on more creative sticking patterns, such as on a 4 piece kit, which obviously makes sense because you aren't going to be able to do a huge fill across 10 different toms out in front of you. I find most big and massive kits to be pretty overkill and unnecessary, sure they are flashy but why bother when you can buy a smaller kit for a way cheaper price??

[Loseless]

I don't have much experience, but most of the times I play, I play on something like this:

http://i34.tinypic.com/10wicus.png

Sometimes the kit has 2 crashes instead of one, depends on the songs we're gonna play.


The bigger they are, the longer they take to prepare, and when you play at bars, big kits tend to be a problem.

2 toms, crash, ride, splash (just because it's compact) is enough. To play pop and acoustic songs, this is enough:

http://i37.tinypic.com/14iptau.png

[jamest]

I don't have much experience, but most of the times I play, I play on something like this:

http://i34.tinypic.com/10wicus.png

Sometimes the kit has 2 crashes instead of one, depends on the songs we're gonna play.


The bigger they are, the longer they take to prepare, and when you play at bars, big kits tend to be a problem.

2 toms, crash, ride, splash (just because it's compact) is enough. To play pop and acoustic songs, this is enough:

http://i37.tinypic.com/14iptau.png

I prefer a smaller kit too, when i'm gigging I hate having to lug around a huge kit. I can get by more than well with a smaller set up, it forces you to be more creative as well!
__________________

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!"

http://www.excellent-offers.com/gravy1.jpg

[DrummerBrother]

what Kit-Conf. program do u use?
and where can I find it? :D

[Pass.of.E.r.a.]

what Kit-Conf. program do u use?
and where can I find it? :D

http://sabian.com/en/setupbuilder/

If you want non-sabian cymbals, under the cymbal tab click the "other cymbals" button.

cheers!

-Jonathan

[Sedgewick2012]

The DW Kitbuilder is also a pretty good application for modeling setups.

[braincramp]

I'm from what I concider a rural area that has lots of bands that for the most part have the same set list give or take a few songs...there is a limited amount of clubs to play in so competition is there..like it or not..our band Braincramp BRown, mAIN & CRAMPton put a big emphasis on showmanship to distingquish us from the other handful of bands.. (we're old hair band guys anyway with a little less hair and no more spandex) ... When people come see our show I want there 1st impression to be wow what a drum set these guys must rock!!!! we then go out and put on a killer show...we always have a packed dance floor and makes it a kegger type atmosphere.. it helps the other 2 guys up front are super-hi energy wound tight types that make the crowd feel there part of it all...but out here in the sticks it really seperates us from everyone else...bottom line the people are thirstier and drink more when they see us...and for me it all starts with a big drum set ...plus I hit everything on my set at least once

Or I could be justifing all this for my ego!!! either way it works!

[MikeM]

My kit lies somewhere in between, but I like it, it's fun to play.

[Pass.of.E.r.a.]

Here's what I used to play...
http://sabian.com/temp/setupbuilderexports/20101115_17-49-57-68.jpg
And my current setup.
http://sabian.com/temp/setupbuilderexports/20101115_17-52-10-115.jpg

Having been on both sides of the fence, I must say that while playing a big kit can be fun, small kits (as many others have said) force you to be more creative with your fills and more importantly are much easier to transport.

-Jonathan

[zambizzi]

Cool, never noticed that on the Sabian web site. My kit just keeps getting smaller. I've got a 10" Paragon splash and a 19" Paragon china just sitting around, collecting dust now. I love 'em...just don't need 'em...so I trimmed 'em off.

[Homeularis]

I have tried all kinds of setups from 4pc to 9 pc dbl bass and I always go back to 3 up and 1 down.
I just gotta have my fusion tom setup.

[azrae1l]

it's kinda funny watching both sides use the same arguement to justify why their side is better....

[Morbid Koala]

My criteria is that it should serve the song, not the musician's ego.

That sums it up. Play for the group and your style will ultimately emerge.

Don't force preconceived notions of how you think you sound into any musical collaboration.

[keep it simple]

I suppose mine's somewhere in the middle. It's very compact, yet with huge tonal range. It's always been the same layout too (since 1978, but a 20 year break). The 24" ride on the right is a 24" china (the program didn't have a 24" china). I used that Sabian builder, hence the branding, but my kit is now all Amedia. I don't see my kit changing size anytime soon. My new studio kit (currently being built) is exactly the same layout.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Pass of E.R.A. - that kit builder is a fun thing. I made sure my kit is as small as possible because I'm not mad keen on lugging.

[yesdog]

Here is my set up. I have been using for over 20 years

[Coldhardsteel]

Looking back on old posts in this thread, I realize at one point, I really didn't know everything.

Seeing your own stupidity sure is humbling.

Anyway, Sabian kit-builder of my goal for my kit:

http://www.sabian.com/temp/setupbuilderexports/20101116_7-12-12-490.jpg

[Pollyanna]

lol - I forgot my hats ... obviously wasn't listening to this at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmRaC8tSHww

[keep it simple]

Here is my set up. I have been using for over 20 yearsWe have very similar setup taste there Scott!

[Kenny Allyn]

I have seen this debate before ... on the bass forum

Yes boys and girls, should you play a 4 string bass or 5 and up (known as ERBs extended range bass).

When I was over there, back in the day, I never argued the point, mainly because I really don't care either way. I could say all I need to say on the bass with 4 strings, but there are those that need 14 no kidding.

With drums size and portability were/are an issue, so my first kit was a Yamaha Manu Katche hip gig jr, it has evolved (sold it) into a 5 piece Sonor, my minimalist statment now being just a kick and snare. If you want 20 toms ... play 20 toms and 23 cymbals, If everthing you want to say can be said with a kick and snare ... say it.

You can see my old 4 string Fender bass in the background.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k220/kennyallyn/Kennys%20Instruments/TheLudwigKit90.jpg

[eddiehimself]

I have seen this debate before ... on the bass forum

Yes boys and girls, should you play a 4 string bass or 5 and up (known as ERBs extended range bass).

When I was over there, back in the day, I never argued the point, mainly because I really don't care either way. I could say all I need to say on the bass with 4 strings, but there are those that need 14 no kidding.

With drums size and portability were/are an issue, so my first kit was a Yamaha Manu Katche hip gig jr, it has evolved (sold it) into a 5 piece Sonor, my minimalist statment now being just a kick and snare. If you want 20 toms ... play 20 toms and 23 cymbals, If everthing you want to say can be said with a kick and snare ... say it.

You can see my old 4 string Fender bass in the background.



Well said. Since i play the guitar, bass and drums I've seen all the arguments. With drummers it's how many drums or cymbals you should/should not have, with bassists it's all about the number of strings and with guitarists it's about tuning. I've seen all sorts but at the end of the day it all boils down to the same thing. People who don't want to accept that some people don't want the "standard" or "original" instrument/setup because it just simply doesn't work for them. And of course i'm sure there are those who don't accept that the "standard" works just fine for others.

Imo arguing about how many drums you should have on your kit is just infantile and pointless. Some people play 4 piece, some people play 40. What's wrong with that? Why do we need this much of a huge thread just to argue the same points over and over again? Yeah what the OP said was pretty stupid but come on guys...

[shadowlorde]

it all depends on how you use your set ...

peart or portnoy would just sound weird in their bands on a 4 piece .

having more options is more fun. I don't use everything constantly .. but its there when i need it ...

i don't consider a set as big until it has more than 4 toms .. 3 up 1 down is pretty standard (for metal)

i like to think of this .. a 4piece drum set is like a guitar missing a string or two .. .. yea you can play many different notes on one string


and on that topic ... how many different things can you do on 1 drum

single hit
double stroke
flam
drag
rim shot
pitch bend
stick shot
put medical tubing in the air hole and blow into it to change pitch

(all of this hit dead center for the most punch, a bit off center for a few overtones, at the edge for many overtones),

cymbals:

crash
bell
scrape
hit the edge with the side of the stick for a light bell sound
roll

sounds can be changed using brushes, rods, mallets

multiply that by number of drums and cymbals and you get more possibilities.

in certain songs .. more toms are necessary .. thinking from a percussionist perspective.. playing melodically like timpani or concert toms is harder on 2 drums ... unless you have a set that is all roto toms and you can change pitch in a second.

btw .. a company has to re-invent pearl vari pitch drums and make them a bit better ..
2 headed toms free floating drum shell turn top and bottom heads in opposite directions to change pitch .. something like that

[FlyingBIZKIT]

I personally like bigger sets better because it allows you to have more options and sounds. The biggest i would ever go is Mike Portnoy's purple monster haha. But i also like smaller sets, like people said, it makes it more challenging, so you have to be creative. To me, it just depends on what style one likes to play.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Epic thread.......and without a definitive answer in sight. Never has been, never will be.......

Just how long is that piece of string again??

[Rick H.]

I originally started off on a four piece (it was all i could afford) After a while i started getting bored and wanted a larger kit with more toms leaving me with more places to go than the four piece. I eventually bought a 7 piece (four rack, 1 floor) I had a lot of fun with it, but i wasnt sure if it was my lack of playing or the big drum kit but i realized i couldnt play like i used to (as fast) so i eventually gave up on the big drum set and then down graded to a 5 piece (1 up 2 down) and i can play as fast as i used to again.
I think its because of my set up and playing style, i like my toms and everything real low and close to me in easy reach with a big drum set it is harder to do that so its obviously a preference thing but i'm just a small drum set kind of guy

[Benson]

Hey guys,
I posted this before in another forum but I think that forum was dead, so here goes!

A few years ago I won a contest for a Mike Portnoy replica drumset. Its the Tama Starclassic black ice mirage acrylic set.

This set really is incredible, but I just dont have the time or the space to play this set anymore so I was thinking about selling. Please PLEASE only SERIOUS buyers, this set is worth a lot of money so no lowball offers. The image I've attached is from the set, I currently have it set up punk style but you can see some of the cymbals and two extra toms on the floor to the left plus the brand new bass drum is still in the box un-opened.

This is the ad from the contest:

The Grand Prize is a complete replica of the drumset used by Mike on disc 2 of the Hudson Music “In Constant Motion DVD, including: Tama “Mirage Black Ice” 20 ̋x22 ̋ bass drum, 7 ̋x8 ̋, 8 ̋x10 ̋ and 9 ̋x12 ̋ rack toms, 12 ̋x14 ̋ and 14 ̋x16 ̋ floor toms, 5 ̋x12 ̋ Steel and 5.5 ̋x14 ̋ Maple “Melody Master” Limited Edition MP Signature snare drums, Iron Cobra double bass drum pedal and hi-hat, RoadPro snare and cymbal and tom stands; Sabian 7 ̋ Radia cup chime, 7 ̋, 9 ̋ and 11 ̋ MP Signature Max Spashes, Low and Mid MP Signature Max Stax, 14 ̋ HHX Groove hi-hats, 16 ̋ HHX Extreme crash, 18 ̋ HHX chinese, 17 ̋ AA medium crash, 19 ̋ HH thin crash, 20 ̋ HH chinese and 22 ̋ HH Rock ride; Remo Pinstripe batter and Ambassador clear resonant heads on toms and bass drum, Coated CS and Ambassador snare heads on snare drums; Pro-Mark #TX420N MP Autograph drumsticks. The total retail value of this kit is over $15,000.


I plan on setting the entire kit up on a white background and taking some professional photos (since I'm a photographer)

The only thing that will decrease value though is that UPS dropped the bass drum and the acrylic is split on the bottom all the way to the wood ring that holds the head on it. I called Tama and they sent me a brand new kick drum (hardware and all) which is awesome but still not part of the original set. The set does come with it though.

[Hellwyck]

You could play Billie Jean on a snare, kick and hat.
That's pretty much all N'dugu Chancler uses.






I have the following kits:


* 4-piece Premier Club
18" bass
10" mount tom
14" snare
16" ground tom
single kick pedal

* 5-piece Tama Granstar
20" bass
12" mount tom
13" mount tom
16" mount tom
14" snare
with double Iron Cobra pedal

* 6-piece Mapex Meridian Birch
2x22"x18" bass
12"x8" mount tom
13"x9" mount tom
14"14" ground tom
16"16" ground tom
14"x5.5" snare



I love to use the smaller sets and the larger sets for metal, rock, blues, soul...
I can play them all equally and differently... It's about feel and comfort for me.

[Cameo]

Either a 1-up and 2-down-setup or a four piece.
But I got to say, I love playing monster kits. At least I wan't many, many cymbals.

[Jay Johnson]

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.


Cheers.

Buddy Rich, Dick Cully had four piece drum kits. John Bonham mainly had a 5 piece until near the end of his life. If those guys didn't play big then who did?