The Big Kits vs. Small Kits Debate

[Drifter in the Dark]

It's not the setup that matters as much as the player who's playing it.

[Dr. Jones]

This entire argument got started by inferring that one type of set is inherently more musical than another; but... what is "musical"? When Dogbreath says that a big kit is more musical than a small one, what does he mean? That you can get more sounds out of it?(duh) More sounds doesn't = more musical, at least in the terms we americans define it. If that were the case, wouldn't we be using quarter-tones in popular music instead of just the 12 (or 13 if you count the octave) notes we use exclusively? So to settle this, we would first need to come to an agreement of what is "musical", what isn't, which would probably be impossible. (everyone has their opinions about what is 'musical') The mistake made here was using musical as an absolute term (ie musicality IS this no matter what, and ISN'T this no matter what), when really, it's all opinion.

[Deadmeat]

I think if you ask a question like this you are probably not looking into why we have drummers. To mean that as a drummer we are apart of a group of music arranged to make (hopefully) nice music.

In reality it would depend on the music you play too. I couldnt really imagine neil peart setting his kit up in a little jazz club with a piano and double bass to play some nice quite swing songs. On the otherhand I couldnt see Buddy rich setting his kit up on stage with dream theater. It just wouldnt sound right...you think?

I play both large and small kits, I use what ever the music needs. I puchased a large fusion kit with a number of snares so that I could use it for multi purpose styles.
I also use electronics in the progrock band I am in...not because "oh ya look at me I have a massive kit", it's becuase I have to trigger different sounds for the songs, these songs require different sounds to set moods and so forth.

To say is smaller kit better and big kit is impossible becuase they both have there advantages!
If you can play good on a small kit I dont see why you can't play well on a big kit.
I think it's what the individual sees and hears that counts.
:)

[neilpscuz]

I have a freind (hard to belive I know) who plays 5pc all the time. He is a VERY good drummer. When he comes over he always wants to play my 14pc TAMA and sounds great on it. I've asked him why he won't get a big kit and he says " I don't wanna have to haul all that around". Fair enough, he doesn't have the space either. Since when does a big kit make you less a player or a gear hog. Somebody tell Neil Peart,Alex Van Halen,Simon Phillips, and Billy Colbham, they're not that good. I dare you.

[emmerson]

personally i have a pretty big kit its not huge its not small i guess its just right (for me anyway) but i wouldnt judge a drummers skill and take it down saying yea hes a good drummer but his kits too big... i find that ridculous some people like the sound variations that a big kit gives some people like a nice small kit that they can find out tons of things to do with so little its all their own

[Fur drummer]

aesthetically, i think small kits are better. I believe lots of tomtoms looks atrocious....

lots of cymbals is a different story...

two attched pics display large setups i hate the look of

Lots of tomtoms look atrocious? Shame, shame. LOL
I think lots of tomtoms look cool, to a point.

Yea I don't like Phil's set up either but Billy's looks cool.

I did get rid of one floor tom so now it's just a 10 piece set.

[Auger]

I'm a reformed large drumset player. These days, I like a 4pc drumset -every once in a while I'll use a 5 pc -but not often.

Anyway, I know part of it's personal preference, but the argument of more drums = more sounds = more musical possibilities that seems so popular doesn't really hold water with me ...well, not completely, anyway. I mean, it does to a point, but it’s not that simple and after a bit it stops being true.

Think of it like this: Say you've got nothing but a pair of sticks and a throne. You can wave them around and make whooshing noises, or hit them on each other, or the throne, or yourself, but that can become painful after a bit and your possibilities are pretty limited. So, now you add a snare drum. That's a huuuuuuuuge return in musical possibilities for the addition of that one drum. Now, add a bass drum. Again, a huge return in musical possibilities for the addition of the drum ...but the return on adding the second drum to the first is less than the return you get for adding the first drum to nothing. You haven't doubled your musical possibilities: you've increased them substantially and so the addition makes sense, but you haven't increased them by 100%. With each drum you add, your return diminishes for the addition of that drum. Think about it: consider the amount of amount you increase your musical possibilities by adding a 2nd snare to a complete drumset compared to the amount you increase your possibilities to adding a single snare drum to just the throne and sticks. This is an actual economic principal (you can apply it to lots of situations) and it's called the law of diminishing returns -read a better explanation of this principle than I could give here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

Anyway, so to me, after you hit a 4 piece drumset you get to a point where your return for any additional drum is so small as to not make it worthwhile, in my opinion. This is partly where it becomes personal taste, but, I mean, the amount you get from adding, say, an additional rack tom, might actually be a loss because the amount of musical possibilities and new sounds you gain from that additional drum is less than the amount you loose because the drumset is becoming slightly more difficult to comfortably setup. I can get a lot more musical possibilities from a comfortably placed ride cymbal or hihat than I can from the addition of another rack-tom. But that example still depends on your situation -for some music that extra tom might be more important than the ride cymbal, but I wouldn't really call a 5 pc a big drumset either and it isn't going to be that much harder to play. After that, though, it just gets hard for me to justify adding more stuff. Again, just my opinion.

[gr82bagn]

Auger,
Regarding diminishing returns, correct me if I’m wrong but in order to apply this concept the input variable must be constant, because we are talking about drummers and not production lines this constant variable changes dependent on skill level and creative approach of the drummer, hence its not constant. For example a drummer with the skill level of Thomas Lang would be able to apply a creative approach to each additional drum added to a baseline set. This in essence increases the return per drum as it relates to Langs playing he finds an increase in return per additional drum and not a diminsh in return. One drummers input may become more creative with more drums to play and there for the constant is no longer applicable. I’m not saying that your wrong altogether we just have to keep in mind we are talking about drummers.

[yamaha drumer]

I use a standards 5 piece with 3 cymbals + hi hat...
I think people that always play a small kit (no toms)
are better with accents, and controlling volume, snare
speed, better hi hat control, just more focused on the MAIN
components of the drum... As for the huge kits on videos,
are a look for the drum company as they probably sponsor
the drummer, and trying to make their drumms look the best
possible... And I think nothing looks better than a huge kit on
a huge rack with around 20 cymbals... I often play my snare
only to learn more about accents, rim shots, and the million
other effects that a snare drum hides...

[gr82bagn]

Chip,

While I'm not familiar with economics; every aspect of the analogy doesn't need to carry over.

Your right, not every aspect needs to carry over to apply the similarities of the concept and Auger did do a good job explaining his point. However I believe that the goal of his post was not to apply similarities but rather the actual principals of diminishing returns as they apply to huge kits. Auger even goes so far as to point us in the direction of a web site to explain the concept. I simply indicated that the concept is dependent on keeping the fixed input constant , much like saying all drummers will react the same way when adding drums to a kit. This simply is not true. I myself play a typical 6 piece set and would never be able to apply creative concepts in drumming to a huge kit. I find it hard enough to do so with my simple kit. BUT I TRY!!! HONEST!!! Anyhow, my point was geared more towards drummers like Carl Palmer, Terry Bozzio and Thomas Lang. Such drummers are prime examples that the rule of diminishing returns as it applies to large kits is not valid, they as drummers do not react to the addition of more drums as we do which may help explain why most of us, like you, me and Auger do not benefit from a large kit, however, given the right skill set, practice time and desire more drums can in some instances be better in terms of returns. I’ve seen two of the three above mentioned drummers live and I would never use the term diminishing return regarding their approach to and implementation of playing a huge kit.

[remnantdrummer]

I have a 5-piece... I can play any drumset (after I get out my being stick happy during warm-up)

[Tama Player]

I have a 12 Piece set, its great. so many opportunities.......

Peace
AGR

[Mapex589]

I think big kits are pretty kick ass really. I used to play an 8 piece double bass kit for years but have scaled back to an 6 piece single bass drum kit and that is just right for me. I do like to occasionally take two drums away and play it as a 4 piece but I am at home with a 6 piece kit. I really dont give a damn what size kit you have as long as you can play on what you have. If you like a big kit great if you like a small kit great.....just have fun while you play them.

[gr82bagn]

Mapex589,

"just have fun while you play them"

Very true.

[Auger]

you raise a good and thoughtful point gr8 -and, also, in terms of drumming all drums in a drumset are not equal either. But, the part where my analogy comes in tends to do more with repetition of similar drums (like a billion tom-toms or crash cymbals). The primary snare drum in a drumset doesn't apply to this because there's only one of them -no matter how many other drums you put around it. Once you add a second, however, the same thing starts to happen.

But, I disagree somewhat still too. I can't speak too much about Lang because, aside from the few clips here, I'm not familiar with his playing. But, here's the thing: While Lang certainly doesn't suffer any of the losses I would from that crowded of a drumset in terms of his ability to play whatever he wants on any part of it, how much would he be handicapped if you just took one of those tom-toms away on that monster drumset he uses sometimes? Actually, I'd venture to say it wouldn't hurt him one bit. In fact, If you just took one single one of those tom toms away and closed your eyes I'd probably say that, at no point would you miss it in terms of what you're hearing. So, I'd venture to say that it's adding no value to his drumset -or very close to no value, anyway. But, if he had a drumset that was just hats, ride, bass, snare, and one tom -if you took any of those things away, the music he's making would sound different.

...but I can't argue the have fun while you play / personal taste factor. If you like a big drumset and that's the statement you want to make as an artist (it is art after all, not a production line) then that's great and go for it! I guess the only thing is that I disagree with the simplified bigger always equals more possibilities assertion.

[michael drums]

Well, well...An UN-arguable debate. Drummers are people. People are different. Hence the "ground-breaking" concept...Not all drum-kits will be the same.

Look, whatever the music calls for, is whatever tools you'll need. It's going to be different for everyone who plays different music and styles. Some need a small kit for what they accomplish. Some need a big kit to create their "product".

Drummers such as Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain, Portnoy, etc...use the big kit to create what the music calls for. Drummers like Watts, Starr, Colaiuta, Carey, and a lot of jazz drummers, use the small(er) kits to create their mastery.

This really is not a debateable issue. No one kit is better than the other. It's how each one is "hit with the sticks" that matters.

Merry Christmas...Play On!

[Auger]

I see where you're coming from michael, but there's a difference between arguing and debating or discussing something like gr82bagn, chip, and myself are doing - along with many of the other posts in this thread, though I must admit I didn't read every single one.

Anyway, though, for those who enjoy thinking, I'd say these are the most stimulating and important converstations. I consider drumming and music to be a philosophy and think that many of the most important questions don't really have definate answers. The idea is not to try and find the one, single, correct answer, but rather to think about the question and learn in the process (I feel I've benefited from reading posts in this thread) -which makes it very debatable ...and a worthwhile one at that.

anyway, happy holidays to you too!

[tamadrummer132]

well.. i dont understand why someone would spend 4 thousand dollars on a 3 piece dw kit. (considering you dont get a snare)

BUT i do understand small kits to a degree. personally, i would rather have a big kit, becuase of the different tones, but small pieces do challenge you a wee bit.

[wybasher]

... The most I would want to go for is a 6 piece... I'd feel guilty with that, even. ...

Hey, no need for anyone to feel guilty.

A "big kit" is anything larger than bare hands slapping rhythms on kneecaps. Some of the rap performers on New York City streets will outgun most guys with a snare and kick drum. Why is a snare and kick drum even necessary?!

A "small kit" is anything less than Portnoy, Bozzio, Grant Collins, Bittner, etc. But even those guys are quite wimpy compared to some of the trap sets I've seen at orchestras and festivals.

Well, it seems that your proposed 6-piece falls into neither of those categories. Or is it both of those categories? I'm all confused now. Anyways, be happy that you are uncategorizable!

[wybasher]

... but you should also take ito account what context "drumming" is in.


Context? Maybe yes, maybe no. Don't think in discrete steps; think in a continuum:

Don't think in context of "drumming" ---> think in context of "percussion" ...
Don't think in context of "percussion" --> think in context of "music" ...
Don't think in context of "music" ---> think in context of "expression"

You're getting caught up in comparing the "input" (the gear) instead of paying attention to the ultimate thing which is the "output" (the expression).

Why does this matter?! Because in 20 years when scientists create a neural input device that can instantly translate your brain waves into any percussion sound, a drumset will no longer be needed. Any "percussion" sound you can dream up in your head will come out of the speakers instantly. When this inevitably happens, your rhythmic IQ (your brain) will matter more, and your equipment & limbs matter less.

Think this scenario is farfetched?! Can you judge my handwriting? You can't because the keyboard input and computer fonts that you're reading right now have replaced handwritten letters. So my skill with a pen is irrelevant. And eventually, my typing skills will be replaced by 100% perfect voice-recognition so even that won't matter. And then my voice will be replaced by direct neural input. The recurring pattern for "improving expression" is similar to the pen --> keyboard --> voice input --> neural input. So, if the mechanics don't matter (the pen or keyboard) ... what DOES matter? It's the message, the idea, the expression; do the words that I've express have any value or meaning. If you ask me how many keys are on this particular keyboard that I used to type out this post, then we are at opposite ends of opinion and we cannot continue this dicussion.

Anyways, when drum kits (and any other musical instrument) become obsolete, I predict we'll look back at "big kit" vs "small kit" discussion as counterproductive. When's the last time you debated with folks about what fountain pen and ink they used? Perhaps people 300 years did debate about ink mixtures but stop and consider this: none of those debates surive today. Only the documents and the ideas written survive: The Declaration of Independence (USA), Magna Carta (England), hieroglyphics, the sketches of Leonardo da Vinci, Bible scrolls, etc.

In any case, I will enjoy my time doing the "human" drumming until the robots take over.

[Deathmetalconga]

Well, well...An UN-arguable debate. Drummers are people. People are different. Hence the "ground-breaking" concept...Not all drum-kits will be the same.

Look, whatever the music calls for, is whatever tools you'll need. It's going to be different for everyone who plays different music and styles. Some need a small kit for what they accomplish. Some need a big kit to create their "product".

Drummers such as Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain, Portnoy, etc...use the big kit to create what the music calls for. Drummers like Watts, Starr, Colaiuta, Carey, and a lot of jazz drummers, use the small(er) kits to create their mastery.

This really is not a debateable issue. No one kit is better than the other. It's how each one is "hit with the sticks" that matters.

Merry Christmas...Play On!

I think what gets lost in a lot of this discussion is that it's just FUN to play a huge kit for a lot of people. And other people think it's fun to play a small kit.

There's so much seriousness surrounding the instrument that people get too bound up in the kind of equipment you use and just forget that for some people certain configurations are more fun to play that others. And having fun is the first requirement for me.

www.terrasonus.com

[Bernhard]

Yea, you and I will probably never agree on anything. But, then again, you're not in my league either, so that makes sense.

Merry Christmas...

Hi Michael drums:

May I suggest, that you play your kind of fairplay in YOUR OWN league - please take an outtime from this silly forum with his awful members - the sooner the better . Peace

Bernhard

[mlehnertz]

Word up. I remember when I first got my Yamaha RCs (7pc), I'd hump that set around to every gig just for the "awe factor".

Now I'm down to 2pc - 4pc.

I think what gets lost in a lot of this discussion is that it's just FUN to play a huge kit for a lot of people.

[wybasher]

Word up. I remember when I first got my Yamaha RCs (7pc), I'd hump that set around to every gig just for the "awe factor".

Now I'm down to 2pc - 4pc.

That's funny... I evolved the opposite way. My first "kit" was just a hi-hat stand. Seriously! Not even a snare or a bass drum. I was living in an apartment at the time and the hihat was the only thing I could play without disturbing the neighbors. I had that hihat and ONLY that hihat for 2 years before I moved into a house and finally got a "bigger" kit.

But based on some of the opinions in the last 10 pages, I committed quite a crime by adding a few pieces to that hihat. :-) Did I fully explore EVERY infinite sound possibility with those hihats? I can most confidently say, no ... absolutely not!

[NUTHA JASON]

i've had it up to here.

michael drums ... temporary ban just to think about his approach. this thread is full of off topic junk. please take time to re-read the rules and the threads on quality posting.

finn. take a break or go if you must but consider that this is my holiday season too and i cannot be stuck at a keyboard moderating things to perfection. so if a few things slipped through the gaps then that is too bad and calls for yours and other patience. eventually it get sorted.

merry xmas everyone.

j
ps: medium sized kits rule.

[Mapex589]

Thanks for stepping in guys. I was enjoying this forum before it went nuts. A large kit is like a playground. Like I said...I do not play a big kit anymore because my style has changed so much over time. Buy I would love to have the money to set up a big ol second kit in my basement that would be my "playground" if you will. Both set ups offer so much in terms of challenging yourself to new ideas. I guess I agree with Nutha though....medium sized kits do rule!! Merry Christmas.

[mlehnertz]

My transition to the small set was a strange path. I had been using (and still continue to use) my 5pc Ludwig set. I then bought the Yamaha RC 7pc, which grew to 8pc and his devolved to a 6pc. Like I said, I took that set everywhere because it was big, pretty and nobody owned a Yamaha RC in my area. I then started to worship my RCs and got paranoid I was going to screw them up and like Howard Hughes, they've locked themselves away in a room. I went back to the 5pc Ludwigs for gigs.

Then I happened upon an R&B/Funk band in a local bar. They were out of NYC. The drummer was from Baltimore (more than likely not michael drums because this guy could *play*). The band was Second Step. So, I'm in the bar and the band is cooking and the drummer is just laying it down. I figure I want to see who this dude is and chat it up. I get to the stage and he's got a bass drum, snare, hi hat, ride, crash and china. I would never have known because he was so damn tasty that you never heard what was "missing".

My thoughts on what I needed to do a gig changed that night.


That's funny... I evolved the opposite way.

[wybasher]

... Buy I would love to have the money to set up a big ol second kit in my basement that would be my "playground" if you will.

Cool pic.

What's that thing I see next to the big gong? Is that a kitchen sink? If so, I suppose it's a play on the cliche, "everything but the kitchen sink" ?

But Shawn Pelton still surpasses that dude in pic... he straps a tambourine to his leg.

[wybasher]

My thoughts on what I needed to do a gig changed that night.

One can get locked into extremes. For example, because of my strange equipment path, I can do lots of weird things on the hihat. So to Finns point, I "explored" my hihat in many ways because I was bored and didn't have any other surface to hit.

However, a lot of those "extra" sounds are just gimmicks and in the early days after I got a kit, I had to actually overthink and restrain myself from doing all the hihat tricks. If I had gotten a "full kit" in the first place, I would never have gotten the monotone hihat disease and would have never needed a subsequent cure.

[Mapex589]

Cool pic.

What's that thing I see next to the big gong? Is that a kitchen sink? If so, I suppose it's a play on the cliche, "everything but the kitchen sink" ?



It is a kitchen sink! That is the name of his drumset. "Everything Plus The Kitchen Sink". The guys lives or lived in Troy, Mo. It was the largest drumset for a while.

Have a good one!!

[Deathmetalconga]

Deathmetalconga - I've got nothing against fun. But from a teaching perspective you've got to balance fun with things that are actually productive for learning. Playing a practice pad isn't very fun for most beginners, but it's very beneficial. And as you grow as a player you start to understand the detail and the nuance more and it starts to become more clear to you why you'd want to practice on a pad to avoid the distractions of doing it on a 7pc drum kit. I'd say ditto for drum kit size. If you want to learn to play funk and actually groove, why do it on a kit with two bass drums and the hi-hat half a mile away from the snare? Why not just drop back to what you actually need, lose the distractions and just actually learn to groove?

I make no distinction between fun and prodcutive learning as you do. You can't force anyone to lean and get good at anything unless they really want to. For a musical talent, in most cases, that means the student must really enjoy what they are doing, or else they will lose interest. Society is full of adults who were forced to pick up an instrument in their youth, endured by-the-numbers teaching that frowned on fun - and then they dropped it when they had the chance. Those that stuck with music into adulthood did it because they somehow found it fun, on whatever terms that meant to them.

Having said that, you are right, there is a role for focusing on a practice pad. While it's not as exciting, the payoff is more fulfillment when playing on a kit of any size. But even then, people will stick it out and learn the tedious "practice pad" stuff only when they see it allows them to have more fun on an actual drum or set of drums.

And if they find it FUN to play on a laughably huge set, more power to them. If someone wants to stick with a small set because that allows them to feel like they're focusing on the groove, then they've discovered fun in their own terms in the absence of perceived distractions.

If somone "needs" a huge set to have fun, well, that's okay. And if someone "needs" a small set to have fun, that's okay too. And if anyone in either group wants to look down on the other, well, I just think that's funny.

www.terrasonus.com

[Fur drummer]

Thanks for stepping in guys. I was enjoying this forum before it went nuts. A large kit is like a playground. Like I said...I do not play a big kit anymore because my style has changed so much over time. Buy I would love to have the money to set up a big ol second kit in my basement that would be my "playground" if you will. Both set ups offer so much in terms of challenging yourself to new ideas. I guess I agree with Nutha though....medium sized kits do rule!! Merry Christmas.

Man that is insane! How does he get in there anyway? Is he lowered down by a hoist or a crane? LOL. I don't want to even think about how much all that costs. They would be fun to play but a heck of a set to travel with.

[Rebige]

I would like a medium sized 7 piece set and a small four piece in the distant future but either way i would have to say that im tied between large and small sets.

[glen thomas]

What is the deal with humongus kits sometimes. I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what. Take Bill Stewart compared to Terry Bozzio. Yeah different styles but, come on. Someone I just want to hear your take on it.

By the way speak up I'm losing my hearing as we speak.

I have the best of both worlds.. A big set of Yamahas and a few 4 and 5 piece kits including my '53 Gretsch. Both have their points but my reason for a big kit is the extra sounds or voices if you will that I can utilize in songs or band situation. I like a variety of percussion pieces and it helps to make drums more musical..
I play a variety of styles and having different kits helps me blend into the style and music.
Buddy Rich, Joe Morello and the greats, played fantastic on the smaller kits yet guys like Bozzio and Weckl seem to cover both drums and percussion but also, in Bozzio's case, composer duties aka a one man orchestra. What I didn't care for in the 80's were the hair bands playing a simple 4/4 beat with an aircraft carrier for a kit. That just didn't make sense. The smaller kit for me helps me with my technique but the bigger kit helps me take that technique and make it more musical. I compare it to guitar.. Sure I can play a song on one string but if I can make chords and play parts higher up on the neck for higher sounds, it helps the song become more musical.

[Afrolicious]

I made a really small kit out of my big kit (14' tom as the bass + 8' Tom, Snare and Hi-Hat) and it was a lot of fun to play plus It really inspired me to some simple yet effective fills. I moved back to my bis set though, because I feel like I need the option to use my bigger toms and other stuff every now and then.

[max77]

Reasonnable kit rocks.
A setup like Billy Ward , Gavin Harrison ...

It's perfect ... It give many possibilities in terms of sound but it's not too much like a monster kit.

[Big_Philly]

Reasonnable kit rocks.
A setup like Billy Ward , Gavin Harrison ...

It's perfect ... It give many possibilities in terms of sound but it's not too much like a monster kit.

I agree on that. I have a 5pc now, want to expand to a 6pc so it's gonna be pretty big, but not too big. For me, buying an additional cymbal or drum (or whatever) needs to add value to your playing rather than just your kit. I could get a much bigger kit than a 5pc (or at least, if it weren't for my budget), but at a certain point I would have a bunch of stuff that I rarely use, it would be a waste of my money.

[Tubs player]

i'd like a big kit but the space i have for it is limited so i can't expand to much and there is a very very low budget

[morbius25]

I would love to have a massive kit, but I can't even play a small one. So I would just have a bunch of stuff that I don't know how to use.

[duff]

Big drum kits are nice to look at . Depends on what you're into . I use a 4pc ...looking at purchasing a rack for tom suspension/cymbals.

[Mr. Pasquini]

Sorry I have to

http://drummerworld.com/pics/drum16/terribozzio.jpg

[murphinelli]

sorry i have to also. small kits are the best!

12263

[fijjibo]

A cocktail kit is basically a four piece though.........

[murphinelli]

A cocktail kit is basically a four piece though.........

except that it fits in the space of a one piece.

[pudgytheclown]

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.


Cheers.

This ws posted awhile ago but i really have to disagree. I can think of two examples off the top of my head that use small sets but sound ginormous on recordings. The first is Rodney Holmes. First of all he is one of the most superb drummers I've ever heard and is set sounds alot bigger than it is. the second though I dont know his name and you've probably never heard of the ban. It's a local group called "Joules" i got there CD listened to it and thought he played a huge set, then to my surprize he actually plays a 4 piece set. if you want to hear what im talking about search them on myspace.

[Beginer]

I have been thinking for a while for my self what it is posible to do with only having a snare, hi-hat, and bass.. You know, these days every one has like bunch of toms and cymbals.. I think it takes a lot more creativity to make an interesting solo on a kit that i was talking about earlier and its very interesting to see someone doing that..
If you think about it, there's so many ways how to use a drum.. I mean look at those snare drummers.. http://www.snarescience.com/vids.html .. so what can we do with two drums and a "variable cymbal" how i would like to call it..?? I dont say, that those big kits are bad, not at all.. But sometimes theres just too much of punching and no soft touch..
Tell me whats on your mind??

[hawk9290]

I played 4 master classes this week where that was all we had to use- it really makes you focus on the groove and be incredibly creative at the same time. I thought it really helped me, and it was a lot of fun. I love playing small jazz gigs that way too

[drumminjohn]

I've actually tried that before, just a bass, snare and hi-hats. It's very interesting to see what you can do with it, and its a really good way to work on your time-keeping without the temptations of tom fills and crashes and such.

[tamadrummer132]

its just fine for practices, but not very practical for gigs considering there isnt much you can do in terms of dynamics in volume and such.

[Ozzy Biz]

its just fine for practices, but not very practical for gigs considering there isnt much you can do in terms of dynamics in volume and such.

Says who? Just because there's less stuff to hit doesn't mean you can't effectively use dynamics.

[fourstringdrums]

its just fine for practices, but not very practical for gigs considering there isnt much you can do in terms of dynamics in volume and such.

More drums don't increase your dynamics and volume options. That is in your hands. Tonal options to a point yes, but there is more that you can do with a small set than people realize, different tones you can get out of one drum etc.. You just have to spend some time to discover all of it.

[Fur drummer]

I see a lot more small kits than big kits these days. I think your are defeating the purpose of playing a drum set. Why limit yourself and options? Those snare drummers were cool put they were playing snare solos. When I think of a drum solo I think of someone playing a full kit. Watching a drummer move around the kit and using the various drums and cymbals is more interesting to me than seeing someone playing just one or two drums. Yea you could pull off a solo with just snare, hat, and bass drum and be very creative but a full kit seems better to me. Like Tamadrummer 132 said, I don't think that would be very practical for gigs either although the drummer for the "Stray Cats" made it work.

[fourstringdrums]

I see a lot more small kits than big kits these days. I think your are defeating the purpose of playing a drum set. Why limit yourself and options?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole purpose of playing a drum set was to play drums, have fun, make music, provide a backbone for a band etc.. not count how many drums or cymbals you're using?

Yes, using just a bass, snare and hi-hat is not always pratical, but sometimes, it's all that's necessary. A guy like Bernard Purdie could start everyone in the room dancing by just using those basic essentials. For me THAT'S more interesting than seeing a drummer fly around a huge set.

*edit* You're not limited by how many drums you have in front of you. A great drummer will sit down at a bare bones set and see a full pallet of options available to him or her.

[The Ploughman]

I played 3 gigs last month with nothing more than a snare and brushes. It was heavenly. What a change up from playing the 4 piece. They were in small intimate settings, that didnt lend well to a full kit, or cymbals or even the presence of a bass drum. A fourth gig, I brought 1 crash, 1 ride, hats, bass tom and ft. tom and played mostly brushes on snare with some accents on the toms. really light on the fills.......but it also went very well.

[PsYcHoTiC.DrUmMeR]

I cant see it working all too well in a rock* scenario.
*Including pop, metal etc.

[dizkneelande]

I played 3 gigs last month with nothing more than a snare and brushes. It was heavenly. What a change up from playing the 4 piece. They were in small intimate settings, that didnt lend well to a full kit, or cymbals or even the presence of a bass drum. A fourth gig, I brought 1 crash, 1 ride, hats, bass tom and ft. tom and played mostly brushes on snare with some accents on the toms. really light on the fills.......but it also went very well.

I do the same thing at the acoustic fingerpicking jams at the local bars. nothin but snare and brushes. very satisfying

[Fur drummer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole purpose of playing a drum set was to play drums, have fun, make music, provide a backbone for a band etc.. not count how many drums or cymbals you're using?

Yes it is and I have more fun playing a big kit rather than a bare bones kit.

Why do I get the feeling this is turning into another big kit vs small kit thread?

[Kenneth Nishimoto]

Yeah, I'm actually in the process of building my self a jungle-style kit, it's gonna have a kick, a snare, and a hihat, and that's essentially it. I'm also going to have a cajon to sit on and play, but that doesn't count as a drum, does it? XD

[harryconway]

This is the kit I'm gigging with right now. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u162/hrconway/134-3439_IMG.jpg Listen to the first Rage Against The Machine album. See how many "tom fills" you count.

[Beginer]

More drums don't increase your dynamics and volume options. That is in your hands. Tonal options to a point yes, but there is more that you can do with a small set than people realize, different tones you can get out of one drum etc.. You just have to spend some time to discover all of it.
hey man!! Thanks, thats what i was trying to say too..
English is my second language..:]
Oh, and something more.. I dont want to talk about what kits are better: big or small.. I want talk about drummers creativity..
So its up to drummer.. If you have skills, than you can make a melody with only using sticks.. if a great drummer meets lots of drums, than we can listen to some amazing playing.. I was thinking about Terry Bozzio.. hes like a hole orchestra..

[Beginer]

This is the kit I'm gigging with right now. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u162/hrconway/134-3439_IMG.jpg Listen to the first Rage Against The Machine album. See how many "tom fills" you count.
Could I get any records of your band when your'e using that kit??

[spartacus1989]

To be honest, I prefer small kits to big kits. I will soon be getting as big kit as I play progressive and also I can take a few of the drums away so I can join indie acts too.

The Good Thing's About Big Kits:
-They can be broken down into smaller kits for session drumming
-Fun to play with
-You can show off too all your friends on how you have a bigger kit to them
-More sounds for playing with
-You can quickly change genres when using a big kit

The Good Things About Small Kits:
-You can get an incredible kit for the price of a standard double bassed kit
-Easy to transport and setup
-Micing up is so much easier
-The focus is more on the playing then the size of the kit

[drumbandit]

My Dad's mate has a really good 'blues' band.
Two singers, one with an acoustic guitar, the other with a bass as well as lead guitarist, a keyboard(ist)(er) not sure about that one and a drummer/percussionist. The drumer was just playing a snare drum, two bongo looking things and different shakers with a huge array of different sticks and brushes. That sounded immense and it really fitted with the band, and he was basically just on the snare all night.

Tom

[fourstringdrums]

This is the kit I'm gigging with right now. http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u162/hrconway/134-3439_IMG.jpg Listen to the first Rage Against The Machine album. See how many "tom fills" you count.

Yeah he only used a floor tom on that album and had a cowbell setup in front of him where the rack tom would be.

[zambizzi]

I'll throw my hat in the ring on this one...as I've been thinking about this myself.

I started learning on a 5pc "fusion" set (2 toms up, 1 down), single kick, single snare, 2 crashes, a ride, and hats.

After a while I bought a 7pc kit....2 up, 2 down, single kick, single snare. I rethought my cymbal linup and ended up with a single ride, 2 crashes, a splash, china, and hats.

THEN...I bought a similar kit as a secondary "gig" kit...same layout but with only 1 tom up (5pc w/ 2 floor toms.) My drum teacher uses a very minimalist 4pc....so I started to appreciate a smaller kit as my skills improved.

Now I could see myself playing a 4pc. w/ less cymbals. There's something about the raw charm of a small kit - I honestly believe it forces you to be more creative w/ what you've got to work with. I think finnhiggins was trying to say this way back in the beginning of this thread. You're forced to pull more sounds out of less drums and create new combinations where you might have just used more drums before.

I'm torn...but I can always scale my kit down, on the other hand. If I had bought a 4pc. - scaling up would have been much harder (and wildly expensive.)

That's my 2-bits!

[Flamacue]

I'll agree with both sides of the fence...however my personal preference is the more the merrier. It's more fun for me to create sounds and feels when I have more material options at my disposal. I think what tamadrummer132 was trying to say with the remark about dynamics wasn't necessarily about volume, as much as the creativity dynamics are squashed with these smaller sets. That’s certainly not to say that you can’t groove right with just 2 pieces and some hardware, but after a long set, those of us that like having the extra pieces see the benefits clearly…as I’m sure some of you others that profess the smaller set can see and understand that benefit, whether you spoke of it or not.

I think what bothers me the most about these debates, is the elitist attitude from the small set proponents. Where they almost imply that anyone that prefers a larger set isn’t creative enough simply by association and choice. That’s a very close minded view in my book. Where I typically see those justifying the larger set are open to both interpretations, (or at least I am).

Everyone agrees that some of the best players out there can smoke the show without all the fluff, but I’d much rather see them explode on a big set, then on a small one…If I showed up to a Rush show and he came out with a 2 piece, I’d be very disappointed indeed…Yeah, it would be neat to see him lay down some grooves in a studio, but on a live big stage, it begs for showmanship…not just groove.

[cjl71178]

its just fine for practices, but not very practical for gigs considering there isnt much you can do in terms of dynamics in volume and such.

I used to do an acoustic gig on tuesday nights with just a kick, snare, hi hat, and a crash/ride. That was fun doing that.

[WYdrummer09]

I wouldn't say I use a large kit. I use a 5 peice Mapex V series Kit. I use 1 ride, 1 pair of hats, 2 Crashes, and a splash. I agree with you that it takes a lot more creativity to play on a small kit. I know a drummer personally, Lou Leibman, he plays in a big band called the Dave Stahl Band. He uses a 4 peice kit, with a ride hats and a crash. And he is better than any drummer I kno that has a huge kit. He is a very creative man, and I can respect that a lot more than I can respect other good drummers who play on gigantic kits.

[Deathmetalconga]

There's something about the raw charm of a small kit - I honestly believe it forces you to be more creative w/ what you've got to work with. I think finnhiggins was trying to say this way back in the beginning of this thread. You're forced to pull more sounds out of less drums and create new combinations where you might have just used more drums before.


That is very true. I sometimes remove a couple of drums from my six-piece because it's like playing a different instrument. Sometimes I just feel like playing a four-piece, or it's a smaller gig where a smaller kit just fits better. You can always make a bigger kit smaller and you can make a smaller kit bigger (assuming you have the drums, cymbals and hardware).

So, do I have a big kit that cut down sometimes, or a small kit that I expand sometimes? After a while, the distinction is meaningless.

[Fur drummer]

I have been thinking for a while for my self what it is posible to do with only having a snare, hi-hat, and bass.. You know, these days every one has like bunch of toms and cymbals.. I think it takes a lot more creativity to make an interesting solo on a kit that i was talking about earlier and its very interesting to see someone doing that..
If you think about it, there's so many ways how to use a drum.. I mean look at those snare drummers.. http://www.snarescience.com/vids.html .. so what can we do with two drums and a "variable cymbal" how i would like to call it..?? I dont say, that those big kits are bad, not at all.. But sometimes theres just too much of punching and no soft touch..
Tell me whats on your mind??

Basicly what those snare drummers are doing, playing on different areas of the drum and doing stick tricks. Playing the the BD with one stick and your foot while playing ghost notes on the snare with the other stick for instance. Playing on the rim, side, and stand of the drum.

I will say this about a small kit. The audience can see what you are doing better. There are not a lot of drums to block their view of your hands and you.

[BellsOfRhymney]

Lots of the best from Earl Palmer and John Bonham have just snare, kick, and hat. Earl Palmer was the first (and still the best I think) rock drummer, he kept it simple and gets a groove unique to him only. And Bonham, listen to the droves of great stuff sans toms, most all of it really.

[fourstringdrums]

I was just reading the issue of Modern Drummer with Louis Bellson on the cover from 2004. There was an interview with Chris Pennie from Dillinger Escape Plan. Atleast at the time of the interview, he was using a minimalist kit. Bass, Snare, Floor Tom, and a few cymbals. I don't really care for the music but considering the fact that he's a hardcore/metal drummer, it's amazing that he uses such a minimalist setup. He talks about the fact that he feels that the drums sound better when there is no rack tom in front, and actually I'd tend to agree a bit. You can feel the bass more because there is nothing in the front to block the soundwaves from coming up at you, and I personally think that the snare, bass, and floor tom sound more natural. I tend to get alot of sympathetic vibration from my rack toms that give the other drums more of a resonant quality, which I don't always like as it alters how the drum would sound if it were sitting just by itself.

[hawk9290]

he still only uses a 4 piece with a stand mounted rack tom, hats 2 crashes 1 ride and 1 china, which for metal is very minimal.

[fourstringdrums]

he still only uses a 4 piece with a stand mounted rack tom, hats 2 crashes 1 ride and 1 china, which for metal is very minimal.

Yeah it is. I just thought it was even more incredible that he didn't use a rack tom at all at one point.

[Beginer]

Im listening to some Earl Palmer right now and i think hes graet..:]

[spartacus1989]

Although I don't own a big drum kit YET!! I completely agree with the statement made by zambizzi, although, when I do play on big kits, sometimes the sound of just 2 toms can get boring for certain genres but small kits feel so much easier and everything is so much more reachable then a big kit!

[MartenKaiser]

I enjoy playin big drumkits, ever sence i was little and saw all the rockstars with the big drumkits I knew I wanted a big drumkit. I bought a big set some time ago and im having alot of fun with it, its awsome to have the ability to create so much different sounds and to have a big surface to do it on, thats just my personal oppinion, altough i very much agree to the fact that a smaller kit really helps you to be creative, you have to use your mind so much more.
/Marten Kaiser

[irishnd74]

I have about 5 or 6 kits from one kit. It really depends on what and who I am playing with. I scale down for 2 of the bands I play with, but I am trying to put together a variety band and it is great to have the big kit to do more stuff. I bought an electronic kit for practicing and I am now using some of the pads and triggers on my acoustic kit. That has opened up a whole new world. The greatest thing about the small kit is it's less stuff to haul after you have played your butt off all night. I mean we all know the drummer is the hardest working member of the band.

[Beginer]

heres a great example of what I'm trying to say.. even if you dont agree with me he's great isnt he??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5r5mJJXNJc

Oh, and one more thing.. When I'm learning, its almost everytime I'm on the snare, bass and hi hat.. Only when i know what I'm doing I start to go all around the kit, which is not so difficult.. So it seems to me, that lots of toms and cymbals only can do what a drummer cant do - make different noises.. Again, I'm not against a big kit, becouse I like lots of Cymbals, especially clear ride's and those tiny splash's.. And I also like simplicity..

I like drumming, becouse you can do and learn it anywhere..:]

[Deathmetalconga]

More drums don't increase your dynamics and volume options. That is in your hands. Tonal options to a point yes, but there is more that you can do with a small set than people realize, different tones you can get out of one drum etc.. You just have to spend some time to discover all of it.

Good point. At least 90 percent of all playing is just bass, snare, hats and ride, even if you're Portnoy on a monster kit. So, if all you had was those four items, you should be able to play 90 percent of everything - and you're be forced to think of new ways to create the other 10 percent.

[fourstringdrums]

Good point. At least 90 percent of all playing is just bass, snare, hats and ride, even if you're Portnoy on a monster kit. So, if all you had was those four items, you should be able to play 90 percent of everything - and you're be forced to think of new ways to create the other 10 percent.

Yup, and that's what I started realizing in my own playing. You get to a point where you wonder if you're using things because you want to and you hear that in your head, or if because they're in front of you.

The hardest thing, especially if you play certain kinds of music, is when you strip down your set, making due without that drum. Funk, Rock, Jazz, Latin, the rack tom is used alot in all those styles, so you have to find a way to play in that style, and not rely on that one tone being there.

I've just found it funny how ONE drum can completely alter what you play. As soon as I took my rack tom off I immediately was utilizing tones from other areas more, grooving more, and doing things that for some reason I never played when the rack tom was there.

I have been reading through old MD issues lately and I've noticed that I'm noticing more drummers who are using 3 piece sets that I didn't notice before, and I feel really good when I hear about those guys. The issue with Steve Jordan shows him in quite a few pictures just playing a 2 piece with the hi-hat, and I get in such a good mood by looking at that.

[Beginer]

I've just found it funny how ONE drum can completely alter what you play. As soon as I took my rack tom off I immediately was utilizing tones from other areas more, grooving more, and doing things that for some reason I never played when the rack tom was there.



maybe thats the key to building up some creativity.. you know, when you want to hit a rack tom (or any other drum or cymbal) wich is not there, you realize you cant and you have to quickly decide what to do.. no.. probably you have to keep it in mind all the time:]
but anyway, I think it helps to get more creative..

[tamadrummer132]

More drums don't increase your dynamics and volume options. That is in your hands. Tonal options to a point yes, but there is more that you can do with a small set than people realize, different tones you can get out of one drum etc.. You just have to spend some time to discover all of it.

i should have clarified that what i mean by that was say that if your doing a build in a rock-type setting and you have to crash and/or ride a crash..but you dont have a crash.

[LiveGoat]

Check out Deerhoof. They are probably the coolest indie-rock band in existence at the moment . Their drummer Greg Sangier uses what looks like a marching kick a snare, a hi-hat and one cymbal and yet he does some of the coolest stuff I've heard. It's all about your musical imagination. All the chops and drums in the world won't help you if you don't have that.

---LG

[fourstringdrums]

i should have clarified that what i mean by that was say that if your doing a build in a rock-type setting and you have to crash and/or ride a crash..but you dont have a crash.

Then you crash your ride :) If I was going to go that minimal with cymbals I'd want the one cymbal I was using to be able to cover as many sounds as possible.

[Beginer]

I checked out Deerhoof and look what I found!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYSeygs97Q#
One cool custom set up..

[fourstringdrums]

I checked out Deerhoof and look what I found!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYSeygs97Q#
One cool custom set up..

Wow, that's great. It took me a second to realize that he has a ride cymbal stacked over I assume a smaller cymbal, on a remote hi-hat stand.

[Ozzy Biz]

I checked out Deerhoof and look what I found!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEYSeygs97Q#
One cool custom set up..

Did anyone notice how low this guy sits?

[Beginer]

Its funny, but he says hes sitting uncomfortable in purpose to come up with more creativity, the same reason is why hes using such a small kit.. ( I watched an interview with him on www.indie-eye.it )

[DogBreath]

Big kit = big possibilities. More options, more musicality. You can play small on a big kit, but you can't play big on a small kit.

Cheers.
This ws posted awhile ago but i really have to disagree. I can think of two examples off the top of my head that use small sets but sound ginormous on recordings. The first is Rodney Holmes. First of all he is one of the most superb drummers I've ever heard and is set sounds alot bigger than it is. the second though I dont know his name and you've probably never heard of the ban. It's a local group called "Joules" i got there CD listened to it and thought he played a huge set, then to my surprize he actually plays a 4 piece set. if you want to hear what im talking about search them on myspace.

Yeah, that was my opening salvo from two years ago, and I went to great lengths after that explaining and clarifying exactly what I meant. I know it's a long thread but you might want to read past the first page before adding to it.

[fijjibo]

Yeah, that was my opening salvo from two years ago, and I went to great lengths after that explaining and clarifying exactly what I meant. I know it's a long thread but you might want to read past the first page before adding to it.

Almost ten pages, this is one of the longest ongoing debates in planet drum.

If someone asked me what size kit they should play, I would say YES!!!!

Meaning that It doesnt matter, big kits go well with some styles, and small kits are really versatile.

[bp3rry]

Cheers! I can go both ways on this one. My first kit was a lil red glitter 79 4pc sears special that my folks got me for Christmas. It had a hat and a crash and I could wail on it all day. Although I was a young kid, I could impress much older players, some of whom I had great respect for and learned alot from, and I got a bunch of fundamental chops on that kit that I still use today. Of course, I drooled over bigger, better kits but at the time, that was what I had and I played it like I had a 9pc. It was great fun. Then I got a job at the local music shop and I set up big brand new kits in the drum shop as well as rental kits, and some decent new electric kits were just coming out, and I fixed up trade ins, etc. I loved setting up the big kits and tuning them and I couldnt wait to save up enough cash to buy a bigger set. I finally bought a Ludwig 5pc Rocker set with a nice compliment of hardware and cymbals and again, the extra drums just added to my bag of chops. I now play a 6pc Yamaha set with all the rack trimmings and also a Roland SPDs for FX and I couldn't be any happier. I might even add another drum and maybe some other percussion pieces. I guess my point is, I really cant knock anyone for going big, and I also enjoy those that can make a small kit hum. To each his own I say! For me, drumming (and music, recording, etc.) is like other hobbies, like hot rods, or dirt bikes, or boats, or computers, or whatever, where having cool gear is half the fun. When I croak, I can say I had an average size drumset, an average tool, an average studio, average band, etc...but I had an above average amount of fun! That is what matters most to me, have fun! Rock on!

[GW Drums]

WOW!! This has been some intense reading. I don't know if it is safe to jump in but here goes:

Big and little.....they are both great. I have enjoyed Charlie Watts and Jeff Hamilton on their small kits and enjoyed Carter Beauford and Neil Peart on their large kits. That doesn't mean one is better or worse,it all falls under personal tastes. What direction do you want to go with the drum kit? If you want hi and low tones you have to have more toms,or cymbals,etc. If you just want to groove and hold it down,the small kit will work great. You can be VERY creative on both but no matter how much you try,there are only so many tones on a smaller kit. I know it is so simple and obvious but it just comes down to personal prefference. One thing I do feel that's missing in drumming is individualism. Not really talking about playing as much as style and drum sets. Do your own thing. If you like it and it works for you....great. That's how the great ones set themselves apart. I know there are some great players on this site that can rip me to shreds on a kit and thats fine. But if I try to have my drums exactly one way or the other because of someone else's kit then I am only limiting myself. Experiment with different things and see what works best for you but remember that it doesn't mean that other ways are wrong. If we were all the same type of player and had the same set up then drumming would be boring and have no meaning to us anymore. I know that I just want to be the best "me" that I can be. If I was playing a song that needs a lot of sounds then I am going to try and use those sounds and vice versa.

[Wansapana]

Appreciate your way of thinking. Well said!

[Ironcobra]

I'm not about to read this entire thread, but based on the 30+ posts that I have read, It's a simple answer. PLAY WHAT YOU WANT. there is not right or wrong, better or worse, or a "cool" factor involved in your drum kit size. A bigger kit might offer more things to hit, giving you greater variety, but a small kit will be slightly more comfortable.

[ddrummer]

I wanna know what people prefer me personaly i like big kits more to choose from and it gets people intrested when i play live they see the big kit and wonder over and they watch the whole set but on the other hand while im at home i set my kit up with only one kick drum one rack tom and two floor toms the reson being if i get a surtain amount of skill on a small size kit i will be twice as good on the bigger size kit....... as a pose to when i play live i have mtwo kicks three rack toms and two floor toms more toms = bigger rolls..... so what do u all think .......

[Velimor]

Looks like the US isn't the only country with the spelling and grammar epidemic...

I'm positive there's been a thread or two exactly like this. Personally, I think big kits are fun to play on, but when it comes down to it, I'd rather play my 5 piece with 4 cymbals.

[wnameth]

I'd rather play my 5 piece with 4 cymbals.

to some, thats a "big kit" its all subjective. i play a 5 piece (sometimes 6) with 6 cymbals and i think its pretty beefy.

-Wes

[AveyTare]

I wanna know what people prefer me personaly i like big kits more to choose from and it gets people intrested when i play live they see the big kit and wonder over and they watch the whole set but on the other hand while im at home i set my kit up with only one kick drum one rack tom and two floor toms the reson being if i get a surtain amount of skill on a small size kit i will be twice as good on the bigger size kit....... as a pose to when i play live i have mtwo kicks three rack toms and two floor toms more toms = bigger rolls..... so what do u all think .......

man, dots aren't hard to use...

i don't like big kits. there are many problems with setting them up and i just don't need five toms - for my style of playing one rack and one floor tom is more than enough.

[michael drums]

Oh God...


Here we go...AGAIN!! :-(

Guys...this has been discussed(debated) already in another thread since dirt was discovered.

This horse has expired...

Next?

[gmrakich]

Big is good
Small is good
Its ALL good.

[Big_Philly]

I've already said it in another topic regarding this... but my opinion is that you should decide whether you need the extra possibilities that come with extra gear, and whether it's worth the price (drum gear is, as most of us have already experienced, quite expensive).

Personally I like the esthetics and possibilities of a big (6 piece with a good bunch of cymbals) kit with a single bass drum. So I have one. Mine's about to become an 8-piece with the two octobans I made...

[BertTheDrummer]

Sometimes big kits just look more impressive. I've played on kits ranging from 6 piece (bass drum, 4 toms, 1 snare) with 5-6 cymbals down to a 3 piece (bass, 1 tom, 1 snare) and a hihat. Depending on what type of music your playing, you might just need a small 3 piece, I've seen impressive drummers play on small sets and I've seen impressive drummers play on huge sets.... I've also seen really really really really bad drummers on either as well. Personally it depends on what I'm doing, and if I feel like carrying all that gear.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I think you will find that the big kits are somewhat larger, while the smaller kits aren't quite as large.

[Horizonchaser]

Well my thoughts change depending on the circumstances.

When playing in my punk band a use a four piece with 2 crashes, hats, ride and china. I like this for the accessability I need for fast music.

However when playing metal I use a 6 piece with the cymbals mentioned above plus two splashes and a zil bell.

Overall I prefer small drum kits with lots of cymbals; I'm just a cymbals kinda guy :D

[Ozzy Biz]

I think you will find that the big kits are somewhat larger, while the smaller kits aren't quite as large.

Stop the press! It's a revolution, the likes of which have never been seen by man before!

Great quote GD.

[harryconway]

Tuesday we (my band) were in a studio recording a demo. I used my two piece kit. Last night, we played a gig. After the second set, a cat walked up to me, introduced himself as a drummer, and said "that's a pretty bold statement there, you just playin' a two piece kit". I thanked him, not knowing exactly where to take the conversation, and then he added, "you work it pretty damn well." I thanked him again and shook his hand. We chatted just briefly and then he went back to his girlfriend. Probably one of the coolest compliments I've ever recieved.

[aydee]

Tuesday we (my band) were in a studio recording a demo. I used my two piece kit. Last night, we played a gig. After the second set, a cat walked up to me, introduced himself as a drummer, and said "that's a pretty bold statement there, you just playin' a two piece kit". I thanked him, not knowing exactly where to take the conversation, and then he added, "you work it pretty damn well." I thanked him again and shook his hand. We chatted just briefly and then he went back to his girlfriend. Probably one of the coolest compliments I've ever recieved.

...........Two piece, played well IS pretty cool. Check out Dave DiCenso here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKG8yXWb6nY

[Bangkok]

I think it depends somewhat on the style of music and the drummers playing style. I'm into prog and ska and I'm on a 5 piece with 5 cymbles

[Cymbalrider]

My vote is for small kits but big drums. As for cymbals, the only issue is stands and positioning. Also other stuff needs to be on there, cowbells, woodblocks, jingly things and such. I have a six-piece kit now and the thing I don't like about it is that it's very complicated. I've only gigged with 2 toms at a time because it's such a pain carrying them around and setting up the little stand for them and finding room. Also it crowds out everything else. The more toms, the less room for cymbals. I'm thinking about buying something like this as a alternative simple one.http://express.bits-ikt.no/musikk/files/d_2823.jpg

[Drummertist]

I recently went from a 5 pc. to a 4 pc. and I love it! The only cymbals I have is 1 crash and 1 ride. I play Rock.

Thats it! but it makes you be more creative and opens up some avenues for playing. I find that big kits make me want to be overly loud and play faster than I should.

[a1DrummerT]

i played a four piece until recently when i started getting into music that required new sounds.

now i play a 6 piece
hats
ride
2 crashes
1 left-side crash ride
splash
mini china
and reg. china
and some latin perc.

[ermghoti]

I'm a pretty n00b drummer, but I ended up with a seven-piece kit. However, I have disciplined myself to approach most fills as if I were playing a four-piece, ie, the fills are usually snare-tom-floor-kick combos. I wanted to avoid falling into a four-hit-per-tom descending roll rut.

[Beginer]

As im playing (on a 5 piece kit), I realise, that I dont even like crash cymbal, I dont like tom fills.. I like to work between my left hand and right foot.. Then add some hi-hat splashing or talking.. And then change something with my left hand.. Thats why Im all about small kit.. And thats why everyone shouldnt be afraid to experiment.. Let your self out, do what you want to feel pleasure and invent something new and interesting..

[zambizzi]

While there is some novelty in the idea of using as few voices in your playing as possible, to me, the novelty would wear off eventually. I've played on my drum teacher's kit when it has been half setup w/ only a kick, snare, and hats...and it was fun...but the lack of textures would bore me quickly.

In my mind, toms aren't just for tom fills. They're every bit a part of the groove as anything else and can be played as such. In the end, however, it's all just personal preference.

I play 2 toms up, 2 toms down, w/ a single kick, single snare, ride, and 2 crashes. I don't use all of it all of the time but I incorporate difference voices and combinations for different songs...and the possibilities are literally endless. The smallest I could ever see myself playing is a traditional 4pc - which is a lot of fun.

[Action Jackson]

I have played 7 piece 6piece and 5piece and I liked the 6piece best. So now I may try a 4piece only because of money but I can't decide what configuration to go with please give me some ideas on 4piece setups. I mean it seems so limiting so please help.

[Deathmetalconga]

I think you will find that the big kits are somewhat larger, while the smaller kits aren't quite as large.

Whoa.

Makes sense once you think about for a while.

[sio_13]

I cant see it working all too well in a rock* scenario.
*Including pop, metal etc.

Maybe you should listen to a new band called Mute Math... I worked in a bar once where there was a small (and I mean tiny) stage with no room for anthing but kick, snare, and hat/ride, and all the songs the house band(s) played were covers, mainly rock and pop tunes. The drummer was phenomenal, and really let me know that anything is possible. Just give it a try, you'll see.

[pcmckay]

I used a large kit for years and one day I was fooling around with my drums and stripped it all down to a four piece kit. I have been playing a small kit ever since. It's just more comfortable for me. After awhile I started to realize that my creativity and playing was improving tremendously. My theory is that if you have less to work with it forces you to be more creative with your fills. And also my foot speed increased a lot because I had to rely on my bass drum more then I did before when I had more toms. Try it out. Experimentation is the only way to figure out what works best for you. The most important thing is comfort. If you are more comfortable behind a large kit then I wouldn't change anything. I think you will just have to try both and see which is more comfortable.

[Action Jackson]

I have thought about this for years and I just never tried it, now that I have no kit and limited money I just may try it also I am partially blind I can't see at all out of my right eye so if I have a second floor tom on my right I have to really turn my whole body at the waist or really crane my head around to see what I am doing and that's not very comfortable but I do love the sound of two floor toms. My last kit had a 16" and 18" and they sounded amazing.
If I get a 4piece maybe I will go with a 14x12 16x14 24x18 14x7 all Cocobolo stave shells.

[ablethevoice]

I'm only a few days new to this forum. As someone said back in this thread that "its been discussed elsewhere" oh well, I'm here now so I'll answer here. I started on a 5 pc, but then got a great deal back in the early 80s on a Slingerland 9 ply maple single bass set with eleven toms (9 rack and 2 floor-13 drums total)! I dragged that beast around for several years thinking it was necessary/impressive to bury myself behind such a pile of artillery. After a while, I started leaving the smaller toms at home and working on a 9 pc. I discovered my chops were much tighter and the cross drumming-switching from snare to low toms had a "busier" sound rather than the high to low rolls/fills I tended to do with all the smaller stuff in front of me. I do, however like to have more than 1 or 2 cymbals. I never changed that. My kit had 14" HH, 14"crash, 18" ride/crash, 22" ride, 24" extra heavy ride (actually one half of a very old marching band set- sounded like an anvil! No spread at all. The "ping" could cut through concrete!) and a Paiste 22" China type. Also had a 6" cowbell and a 4"/6" pair of agogo bells. All the other cymbals were A. Zildjian. Whether I was playing CW, metal, prog or straight R&R, that lineup served me fine for years and I rarely pulled out the 6,8,10 and 12" toms unless we were playing some party or something and I was feeling especially cocky.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As a matter of record: Neal Peart once said in a MD interview (c. 1980) that no matter how huge his kit was, all his chops were based on work he developed while playing a 5 piece set. Nothing wrong with small kits. I'm just more comfortable on a slightly larger kit.

[my sacred music]

i prefer a niel peart type set up. i like to set up like he does with the rack toms in a sort of spiral staircase desending down.
and i have my keyboard beside me. and when i have a chance i like 2 kick drums.

[MadJazz]

I have been thinking for a while for my self what it is posible to do with only having a snare, hi-hat, and bass.. You know, these days every one has like bunch of toms and cymbals.. I think it takes a lot more creativity to make an interesting solo on a kit that i was talking about earlier and its very interesting to see someone doing that..

I played 4 master classes this week where that was all we had to use- it really makes you focus on the groove and be incredibly creative at the same time. I thought it really helped me, and it was a lot of fun. I love playing small jazz gigs that way too

You have four limbs, so why not add a ride cymbal and have one instrument for each limb. You can't talk of a jazz drum if it doesn't have a ride. You need a ride to swing.

[ULTIMATEDRUMMER]

yeah a ride cymbal is the bigest thing in jazz

[blackjam]

Hi! Well I hope someone reads this. Did not want to make new thread

I'm from Japan and just came to the states a three months ago to stay with my cousins. They have a small kit in the basement that i've become really interested in. I don't play drums and neither does the family. I was looking for guidance. The kit has a snare, kick, hat, crash/ride. The kick doesn't have a cover on the side farhest from the seat.

Where do I start? and is it smart learning on a small kit? I have little money for extras. And when I do fiddle with the kit I have trouble with kicking the kick on the wrong every beat.

How did you start?

[harryconway]

Where do I start? and is it smart learning on a small kit? I have little money for extras. And when I do fiddle with the kit I have trouble with kicking the kick on the wrong every beat.

How did you start?

First off, welcome to Drummerworld. I started off with a teacher and a practice pad and a metronome. Then came a snare. Then came a drumset. This was all before Al Gore "invented" the internet. The dark ages. Anyhow, at your disposal now is a wealth of free video lessons, via your computer. If you have a digital camera, post a pic. of your kit. In the "your gear" section of the forum.

[Michael G]

yeah a ride cymbal is the bigest thing in jazz

not necessarily.

You need a ride to swing.

That is just flat out false.

[Bossa Nova]

Yeah he only used a floor tom on that album and had a cowbell setup in front of him where the rack tom would be.

YES!!! Brad Wilk's drumming was one of the reasons that I started playing the drums in the first place.

Personally, I prefer the small kit. I like the sound of my bass, my snare, the bell of my ride, my cowbell, my rack tom, my floor tom, the side of my floor tom, and an open hi-hat better than any rack toms. Those are just the sounds I like, so I would prefer to play those tones. I think that the tonal palette of a good snare alone is enough to make long, complex, and interesting fills.

So I have one snare, one rack tom, one floor tom, one bass, one ride (it's very crashable), one set of hats, and one cowbell. That's enough for jazz, latin, and rock. If I added, say, a crash, a splash, a double bass, and two more rack toms w/hardware that would be close to twice as much stuff to carry around. For me, it's not worth it to have all that extra bulk when I like my sound anyway.

Most of the drummers that I really like have the basic three piece style kit. I have no lack of respect for drummers w/huge kits, but I do think that most of the small kit players feel challenged to produce a big, interesting sound with less at their disposal. Sort of like how Tom Morello, the guitar player from RATM has a unique sound with just a cheap guitar, and amp, and three or four basic pedals--there's a minimalistically appealing artistic challenge.

[Steamer]

First off unrelated to my original intention to post a pair of brushes and a snare in the right hands will swing your you know what off no problem. Been there done that more times than I can count.

I just did a jazz gig with a ride,snare,bass and hats recently that covered a whole palette of sounds and dynamics being very full in effect for the band and listener alike. Did a gig a few years back that lasted for 5 years straight with nothing but a snare,ride and hats and the guys always commented all the time on how full and swinging it sounded and how much sound/feel I could get out of that combo not lacking anything from their point of view. You learn to make use a small amount using coordination and dynamics and feel. When you move back to more drums you can make even a basic 4 piece sound much larger in character than what it appears from my professional experience.

Been playing the same exact small kit since 1980 a 14"x 18" bass.14"x14" floor and 8"x 12" tom and 5 1/2" x 13" snare. Only added a secondary larger size kit with a few more drums later in the mid 80's based on SOUND and EFFECT requirements for certain types of music/ groups and recording situation. For the most part the same small kit's been used since 1980 and as I said sometimes even a smaller kit is used or swinging hard on nothing more than a snare with brushes if that's ever desired too.

[MSPaintClock]

Small kits save space and money, big kits are more versatile. If you ain't worried about space and money than why not just play a big kit? Who thinks the drums are cool anyway? :P

[Steamer]

Small kits save space and money, big kits are more versatile. If you ain't worried about space and money than why not just play a big kit? Who thinks the drums are cool anyway? :P


Well yes and no. My point was that a small kit can be very versatile depending on the type of situation it's used in and the musical creativity/imagination and skill of the person sitting behind it that's all I was trying to get at. Some small high quality kits can be worth WAY more than larger counterparts depending on certain factors BTW. I love all drums by the way big and small since the age of 11.

[Bossa Nova]

If you ain't worried about space and money than why not just play a big kit?

Personal style?

Style of the music you are playing?

Elvin playing Lars' kit is just as silly as Lars playing Elvin's kit.

[MSPaintClock]

Personal style?

Style of the music you are playing?

Elvin playing Lars' kit is just as silly as Lars playing Elvin's kit.

Why? You got all the drums and cymbals you need just focus on whatever you need for whatever you are playing.

[Steamer]

I think we are getting a little sidetracked THINK SOUND. Think about it like this. Find out what is needed in the music you play be it big or small to suit the sound of the group it's used in conjunction with. There is no right or wrong in either just the right choice of gear for both musical situations. What does matter is in certain types of music is the size and tuning of the drums and choice of cymbals in the context of the music they are used in. Large big drums with low muffled rock tuning and a slew of high pitched machined cymbals would not have suited Elvin's concept very well with Coltrane at all just as much as Lars' playing Elvin Jones smaller jazz tuned melodically wide open tuned drums with a 18" wide open not muffled in any way bass drum along with dark old hand made Turkish K cymbals. This type of drumset would be no compliment to Lars and his approach very well in Metallica just as much,works both ways. In this context the other poster has a very good point.

Find what suits the music you play and your musical concept be it a small kit or large kit and have fun.

And yes bigger and more of everything does not always equate to better if you put this scenario into context.

[Fur drummer]

I like big kits and I can not lie.

[Bossa Nova]

Why? You got all the drums and cymbals you need just focus on whatever you need for whatever you are playing.

What are you saying "why" to? If Lars were playing Elvin's kit he definitely would not have all of the drums and cymbals he would need. Have you ever listened to any Metallica? Elvin on Lars' kit is silly b/c the guy uses like two drums and he doesn't need the mega-kit that Lars brings to a gig. Plus I don't think that Lars has a pair of brushes, a rivetted ride, a maple snare, etc...

[michael drums]

I think you will find that the big kits are somewhat larger, while the smaller kits aren't quite as large.

Thanks, GRUNTERSDAD!! ;-)

You've solved the mystery.

Nothing else need be said about this subject.

FINALLY!!

Perfect answer to this horse-beaten question...

Play On! :-)

[Butch Axsmith]

You realy need what the Music calls for''''
Butch Axsmith

[aydee]

I think you will find that the big kits are somewhat larger, while the smaller kits aren't quite as large.

Yes.


14564

Big

14565


..and small

[michael drums]

Yes.


14564

Big

14565


..and small

GREAT examples, aydee!


Hee...hee... :-)

Play On! ;-)

[Phildas]

Hey all,

Perso I like fairly big kits (6 toms, 1 BD, snare etc), because I like the variety of sounds available. I love playing the toms, and the kind of music I play requires that. (Being in a Genesis tribute band, and into Prog Rock etc).
I find small kits frustrating, because doing fills I love doing simply does not sound good on limited sound sources. Big kits also inspire me in my playing more, because of the vast choice of things to play. I think small kits have their place in certain types of music, and big kits in others. Even on stage, I think that big kits look much better, but that is just my own opinion.

Cheers,

Phildas

[Gilded]

big kit= more sound, therefor more fun

[rhythmjunkie]

You can do the same patterns on a lot of different drums on a big kit and sound sort of wild. I beleive with a small kit, it forces you to be more creative and come up with a larger pallet of licks in order to stay interesting.

[Kirsh]

i think that having a small kit does not limit your possibilities, the limit is in your creativity. watch some of the greatest drummers doing great and very variated things with 4 things only. a small kit makes you get out of the confort zone and innovate new stuff ,im not saying all monster kit owners choose to have that kit to take the "easy" way ia matter of taste

but i prefer the challeges, so small but only in the sizes not in the ideas

[Beginer]

So im playing on hats+snare+bass drum+floor tom+ride.. And I like it.. I tryed to use toms and crash, but again, i felt that im just doing the same things on different drums.. Anyway.. There is always more than one sound that a cymbal or drum can make.. So I can crash my ride since I dont even like the sound of the crash.. I can do ghost notes.. Im improoving, thats whats important.. And I feel tired after playing.. Tired of thinking.. That means Im working on creativity.. Dont even care about whatanybody says..

Still..I love Bozzio.. I wonder what would he do on 4 piece.. Just curiuos..

[Ozzy Biz]

I got new heads for all my toms the other day, so I keep setting them up when I'm at home doing some wood shedding. I've almost always removed them by the time I've finished. I like rocking just a kick, snare, hats ride and sometimes a crash. I like it.

[nickg]

i saw Bozzio in a clinic and his "BIG" kit was pretty much totally worthless. for what he played he could have gotten away with a kit 1/6 the size he had.

i think his setup is more for ego than practicality. even the written pieces of his works that he passed out weren't close to what he actually played.

yes he is a GREAT player, but sometimes ego overtakes everything else. other than his snare and kick heads, he probably rarely changes the others because they are seldom used....but man they sure look impressive to a 14 year old.

i've tired of his "ostinato" BS a long time ago.

[Ozzy Biz]

i saw Bozzio in a clinic and his "BIG" kit was pretty much totally worthless. for what he played he could have gotten away with a kit 1/6 the size he had.

i think his setup is more for ego than practicality. even the written pieces of his works that he passed out weren't close to what he actually played.

yes he is a GREAT player, but sometimes ego overtakes everything else. other than his snare and kick heads, he probably rarely changes the others because they are seldom used....but man they sure look impressive to a 14 year old.

i've tired of his "ostinato" BS a long time ago.

There's a video of him on youtube playing with the Fantomas, Twin Peaks might be the name of the song. He just uses kick, snare and cymbals and its really pretty cool. He uses multiple pairs of hats, chinas and bells to great effect and leaves out all the toms.
Do you think his tech/roadies get annoyed when they have to set up that monstrosity of a kit and he hardley uses half of it?!

[aydee]

i saw Bozzio in a clinic and his "BIG" kit was pretty much totally worthless. for what he played he could have gotten away with a kit 1/6 the size he had.

i think his setup is more for ego than practicality. even the written pieces of his works that he passed out weren't close to what he actually played.

yes he is a GREAT player, but sometimes ego overtakes everything else. other than his snare and kick heads, he probably rarely changes the others because they are seldom used....but man they sure look impressive to a 14 year old.

i've tired of his "ostinato" BS a long time ago.

you dont like it, even I dont like it, but a lot of people do like it and get it. I dont think its to do with ego. its to do with the music in his head.

[skyfish]

I saw bozzio at a clinic once myself, he didn't have the kit he's using now, but it was close in size, I heard people in the audience saying how ridiculous it was to have such a big kit, I know someone else in this thread said he didn't use half of it, I think he used every piece he had, and I think it's a drummers choice how many pieces he wants to use based on the composition he wants to create, can he have played what he did on a smaller kit? yes, but does a 14" tom sound like an 8" tom, no, if he wants to use different pitches what's wrong with that? could he play on a small kit....I think so. It's a matter of choice.

[brianthedrummer]

I think it comes down to a few things:

1. I can get over 15 sounds out of my snare drum. So with my four peace, I can get a lot. You just can't expect to have one drum play one sound and think more drums give you more sound.

2. Tonal quality is like painting. When a artist wants to make something red stand out, he doesn't make it more red, he uses a contrast color next to it. Thats why the colors in the American flag are red, white and blue. Red and blue are contrasting. So when playing drums, dynamics and sounds can make some notes stand out, thus giving you more sounds.

3. And lets face it, we would all have huge kits if we had roadies....How can you even compare Bozzio or any other pro drummer with anyone of us? I went to a 4 pc just because just to save my back. It has nothing to do with music, just physics.

[jazzin']

I think it comes down to a few things:

1. I can get over 15 sounds out of my snare drum. So with my four peace, I can get a lot. You just can't expect to have one drum play one sound and think more drums give you more sound.

2. Tonal quality is like painting. When a artist wants to make something red stand out, he doesn't make it more red, he uses a contrast color next to it. Thats why the colors in the American flag are red, white and blue. Red and blue are contrasting. So when playing drums, dynamics and sounds can make some notes stand out, thus giving you more sounds.

3. And lets face it, we would all have huge kits if we had roadies....How can you even compare Bozzio or any other pro drummer with anyone of us? I went to a 4 pc just because just to save my back. It has nothing to do with music, just physics.


Good points. It really is pretty simple isn't it. You play whats needed for the music. I still personally think that with some practice and creativity most people can bring down the amount of drums they use and still get just as many sounds out of it, but some people prefer big kits. Who cares?

Do you really think that everyone would have a bigger kit if they had a tech? I know I certainly wouldn't. I would have the exact same kit I have now. Well....thats not necessarily true. I would have the same number of drums and sizes...and the exact same cymbals, but I would go for higher quality drums. Still, it would certainly not be any bigger.

I use a four piece, by the way. 16" bass drum, 14" snare, 12" rack, 14" floor with 14" hats and two 22" rides. Gives me every sound I need and I haven't gotten close to finishing my discovery of the myriad possibilities that could be gained from it.

I think a lot of drummers still forget, when talking about this subject, that at least 90% or more of what we play is played on only bass, snare, hats and ride.

[middleman]

I say play what you want/need. I adjust my number of toms/cymbals I use to the type of gig/genre. IMHO I think a huge drumkit looks impressive and it's part of the aesthetics of a show. I was on tour with a band (King's X) where Doug the bassist used like 8 full stacks. Only half weren't props.....he had them there to just fill a stage. I say that as a drummer and you wanna bring the big kit (with looks being part of the reason), go for it long as what your playing fits the music. BTW, I play a 4 or 5pc most of the time. Blessings.......

[nickg]

I think doing the "Big Kit" syndrome on Bozzio is really quite unfair. Personally, i don't regard him as a drummer when he plays his solo stuff. He's a percussionist. If he was playing with a band, he wouldn't use that kit - see Black Light Syndrome, some very tasty playing. His massive kit playing is extraodinary, and i wouldn't insult him for anything. He'd probably come orund my house and cut off my head with a custom made 15 and a half inch china. Plus i'm going to see him on the 9th of August, so there. lol.

Bozzio is a talented player without a doubt. but i saw him in clinic one time and it was overall boring. enough with the frikkin "ostinatos" OK?? even as a "percussionist" 85% of his stuff went untouched.

in the same respect i once saw David Garibaldi in clinic and he killed with a 5 piece kit.

so there you have it.

[Steamer]

This recent small kit purchase will suit me now till the reading of the will with no desire to add more drums down the road other than using various Agop cymbal combos in the mix. All the color and sound i'll ever need to get across musically personally speaking in a group situation. Another praise for small kits vote from me:

[joethemassacre]

i like 4 pieces with a double bass pedal,

number of cymbals doesnt really matter.

i play in a grindcore band and ska band.

so thats how i see it.

plus monster kits are a hassle for me.

[m1ck]

Yes.


14564

Big

14565


..and small

What is that small electronic pad? Can you plug it right into an amp? How much do they cost and where can I get one?

[aydee]

What is that small electronic pad? Can you plug it right into an amp? How much do they cost and where can I get one?

it has a USB plug so you can hook it up to your comp / laptop. Not sure where you can get it though . it was available at one of those websites that sell those sharper image type gizmos.. think its called a USB portable drum pad

[Kirsh]

i guess i dont feel confortable with so many things around, i like to see how many different sounds only 1 cymbal or a drum can make. also prefer to master my rigth foot on bass and left on hihatinstead of playing double bass or pedal, just to have to different foots( like playing traditional instead of matched grip)

the double bass drum thing makes me remember what papa jo jones said to charlie persip when he was experimenting with 2 bass drums :
"How can you try to play two drums when it takes a lifetime to master one?"

i think that is THE big question

[Bobrovsky]

I prefer very large kit. Moreover I am trying to apply Bozzio's melodic approach for playing both, solo and with Kostarev group.
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/r/a/ratamaque/Apr13_14.jpg
Only once we have gig with small kit and I felt very incomfortable during playing.
http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/r/a/ratamaque/26882_dom147.jpg

[ihitdrumz]

Small kits save space and money, big kits are more versatile. If you ain't worried about space and money than why not just play a big kit? Who thinks the drums are cool anyway? :P

Having a bigger kit doesn't necessarily make you a better drummer. In fact to a certain degree you could benefit more by starting out an a small kit, and sticking with until you have learn roughly all you can on those drums. Then upgrade it.
I suppose it all depends on the style of playing, for example jazz doesn't require many drums. On the other hand something like "metal" could require lots of toms or cymbals,
douple pedal etc...

[fourstringdrums]

I suppose it all depends on the style of playing, for example jazz doesn't require many drums. On the other hand something like "metal" could require lots of toms or cymbals,
douple pedal etc...

There are no hard and fast rules either. Tony Williams used a 7 piece kit with 5 cymbals, and I believe Art Blakey in later years used a rather large kit. Of course Louis Bellson with big band jazz uses a large double bass kit, and has used even larger kits in the past. For metal, Chris Pennie uses a 4 piece kit and he actually used to use a 3 piece, just a bass, snare, and floor tom.

[burnthehero]

For me, it still mostly comes down to ease of transport/setup. And a 4-piece kit with hats and two rides is plenty for my style of drumming. If I can't easily fit everything into the back of my hatchback Scion, then it's too much.

[Big T]

Hi all

Interesting forum. For me, I found that I had bought 2 kits for playing in 2 bands. I had a small jazz kit and a large rock kit. Ended up selling the jazz kit! Now I have hopefully found some versitility in one kit. I use a Premier Cabria 22bd, 12, 14, 16 toms and 14 sn. + I have a 10 sn that doubles as a tom and I have bought an 18 floor tom to convert into a small bd. All matching. This way I can adjust my kit for the venue or style of music. 18bd, 10sn + hat and 18 ride great kit for really small gigs. I also find changing set up helps with my playing/sticking/improvisation as I do not become complacent with the drums. Keeps me on my toes! Try doing a 4 bar rock fill with just a snare and bass drum... great fun!

Big T

[balboa]

the less "equipment" one has does not necessarily make him more creative...couldnt it also be that the more "equipment" one has, the more he has to be creative with? some drummers can be very creative with smaller kits: krupa, bonham, rich, roach. and some drummers can be just as creative with larger kits: peart, portnoy, cobham, beauford..when bill bruford added simmons to his kit, did it make him less creative. its personal preference. just like seven string guitars, six or twelve string bass, or chapman stick. adding midi triggers to ones kit certainly enhances the possibilities in which to be creative, and more sounds to add more textures...creativity comes from the mind, not the amount of equipment

[wy yung]

Big kit vs small kit debate???

Why.....?


Nevermind.

[Funky Crêpe]

the difference between the best today....and the best from yester year is this
beautiful technique and could get a number of sounds out of there simple drum set....and
can get great sounds, (along with great technique) out of their big drum set...

thats it!...i am a simple kit owener, but generally the big kits are to get more sounds, dont mind the skil aspect...(even though a small kit forces you to experiment, a big kit doesnt).....but its making music that bit broader...no?

[caddywumpus]

There is a LOT of creativity involved when you have a big kit!

...how to explain the big purchase to your wife, how to get the whole thing to the gig, how to convince other drummers that you're not compensating for other areas in your life...

[DrumEatDrum]

Before I ever became interested in being a drummer, I watched and listened to Neil Peart on his massive kit, Steve Smith playing a 9 pc with Journey, Keith Moon and Kenny Jones both with large double bass multi-tom kits with The Who, and the list goes on and on.

So I've always gravitated toward larger kits. But then the reality of lugging that stuff around from gig to gig sets in, coupled with not always having much stage space, and I've spent most of my playing days using a 5pc kit with a handful of cymbals.

I've often tried to strip down even further, but the need for an extra cymbal or that 2nd rack tom becomes to strong when I'm working on new music, and I never quite get it down. LOL.

[Isaac Lee]

For all practical purposes I use a 5pc with 2 crashes, a ride and some hats. I wouldn't want to gig with much more. I'm considering adding my own rack to manage my mics and monitoring though.

[Deathmetalconga]

For all practical purposes I use a 5pc with 2 crashes, a ride and some hats. I wouldn't want to gig with much more. I'm considering adding my own rack to manage my mics and monitoring though.

While people with small kits argue with people with large kits, most drummers are like you and me and play mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. I think people who are passionate about small kits are desperate to make some kind of creative statement, while people who are passionate about large kits are trying to compensate for lack of ability or confidence.

[A Super SpaceNinja]

Who else besides me likes a small kit with massive drums?

[tezzerii]

I've been playing a 5-piece (2-up 1-down) for years. I just bit the bullet and dropped the second rack tom, after weeks of agonising, and moved the ride into the classic spot.
I love it!! Feels so right. Should've done it ages ago. Looks good too.
Still, I'm wondering about a 2nd floor tom - - - - ;o)
I'm playing classic rock, folk-rock and some dancy stuff. If I got into a prog band, I'd probably add a couple of small toms on the left. But the ride stays where it is!
Small kit for now, big kit if the music/band requires it.

[Funky Crêpe]

There is a LOT of creativity involved when you have a big kit!

...how to explain the big purchase to your wife, how to get the whole thing to the gig, how to convince other drummers that you're not compensating for other areas in your life...

ya, i never thought about that!......

[SGT_Drummer]

while I have respect for guys who play on small kits, I can't help but wonder what they would be able to accomplish with more. The smallest kit i've seen played on professionally is the 3 piece used by the guy in Pretty Girls Make Graves. He gets some very creative work done on those drums.

I have always used 5 piece kits. started 2 up 1 down, then switched to 1 up 2 down which i prefer. as i've progressed with my playing i've started adding more. I don't do it because I feel like I need to prove anything, I do it because thats the options I want to have available. Just because I now have a 7 piece with a bagillion cymbals doesn't mean i need to use every single drum in every single song. but if i want to, i can.

honestly, for me the size of the kit is not based on how many drums there are per se, but how many cymbals here are. i'm a very big cymbal guy, the more i have the happier i am. with the drums, you can tune to basically whatever sound you want. but its the cymbal selection that really makes the kit. whether you've got a complete set of dry cymbals, z customs, bright cymbals, or a mixure of them all; its the cymbals that really define the drummer for me. there are just so many options. when i played 5 piece with 1 ride, 1 set of hats, and 2 crashes it was considered moderate. when i upped to 2 hats, 5 crashes, and a few chinas i suddenly had a massive kit, but i never added any drums.

bu yeah back to the original point, i prefer bigger kits to a point. terry bozio would be well above that point. alex van halen's 84 kit would be pushing it. something like tony royster jr. works for me. good amount of drums but a baglillion cymbals ftw!!

[zambizzi]

I've been playing a 4pc. for about 1.5 yrs. now and I really felt a difference when I minimalized the number of drums I was surrounded by. It changed my playing entirely and helped me focus on the groove, without as many distractions.

Now I've got a monster kit coming and I'll be doing the 3-up, 2-down thing. At this point I'm genuinely craving the extra "voices" instead of simply using them because they were there.

I've thought about it quite a bit though. What sort of benefit is there to having a few more toms? Not a whole lot, really. By using less I gained better control of dynamics and learned to pull more sounds from fewer toms. I didn't necessarily miss the extra toms and I realized how much better my filling was sounding by centering it around the snare.

I think the real benefit is the change in the physical movements of the body. With more options, I feel my patterns will become more complex.

Or, I'll just get sick of the idea after a few days and whittle it back down to a 4pc. again. :)

[Mikecore]

I think people who are passionate about small kits are desperate to make some kind of creative statement, while people who are passionate about large kits are trying to compensate for lack of ability or confidence.

That sounds a bit ham-handed to me. Here's my take:

The small-kit crowd seems to operate on the notion that a really good drummer could play anything in the world on a coffee can, and anything more than that is a waste of space. They have simply bought into a notion popular with non-drummers (and VERY popular with soundmen) that drumming is and never need be anything more than "boom-BAP-boom-boom-BAP!", and thus all you REALLY need are kick, hat and snare . That's absurd.

By the same token, the big-kit crowd is assuming the superiority of tonal variety without much consideration for the rhythmic variety asserted by "small-kit K.O.", although not with as much vigor, and I think most of us are guilty at some point in our drumming lives of dragging a monster around for looks or whatever even if we didn't admit it at the time, even to ourselves. Big kit players can convince themselves of a need for anything regardless of the musical reality at work.

I play both as it suits me, and I'm trying to go down the same road as Bozzio here, so I am staring down the barrel of a 22-piece kit soon, and all of the challenges inherent in the transportation and playing of such a thing. I like smaller kits as well, and I'm working on compositions that deal with the limitations and the possibilities of those kits, but there is a different focus for each one. With the huge kit, my approach is much more about melodic expression along the lines of a mallet player than a drummer, so much of the textural stuff takes a back seat to the melody. Similarly, the small-kit compositions are the reverse and rhythm and dynamics are what sets up the drama of the piece. I can play a nice solo on a 2-pc. kit, but it will be fundamentally different from the nice solo on a 22-pc. kit by its very nature.

I think the small-kit crowd has a valid point if traditional drumset drumming is what's being called for. Most of those situations are going to be pretty straight-ahead and most drummers won't get too far away from the kick, snare and hats/ride there. However, the big-kit crowd makes a fine point: there is a four-piece kit lurking within every large drumset, and it does you no harm to carry it and not use it, versus needing it and not having it.

As far as Bozzio, Collins and others like them are concerned, keep in mind that they are the only one on stage when doing a solo drum show, so the only thing they are making up for is the lack of a band, which is of course, the whole point of what they are doing. I have no doubt that there still exists some yo-yo out there who thinks his bitchen' quad-bass monster will make up for his inability to keep solid time or identify a paradiddle, but most of us are smarter than that (I hope).

And I don't care about dead horses. These threads are fun from time to time!

[mrchattr]

3. And lets face it, we would all have huge kits if we had roadies....How can you even compare Bozzio or any other pro drummer with anyone of us? I went to a 4 pc just because just to save my back. It has nothing to do with music, just physics.

When I was struggling in an original band where no one would even help me load in, I used 4 rack toms, 3 floor toms, 3 snares, 3 roto-toms, two bass drums, and a set of bonogs (tuned higher than the 4 racks). Yup, a 15 piece kit. I also had 22 cymbals, 4 cowbells, a set of temple blocks, 2 gok blocks, a set of ago-go bells, a tambourine, and wind chimes.

When I joined my current band, I used a six piece with 7 cymbals and an electronic percussion pad set-up.

I got a tech, and soon switched to a 5-piece with 4 cymbals.

I still have a tech, and am considering switching to a 4 piece.

[mrchattr]

While people with small kits argue with people with large kits, most drummers are like you and me and play mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. I think people who are passionate about small kits are desperate to make some kind of creative statement, while people who are passionate about large kits are trying to compensate for lack of ability or confidence.

I think everyone is different. I do know a lot of young drummers that figured if they played their 20 fills they know over 200 different drums, it'll always sound different. I also know that when I played my monster kit, it was me trying to make a creative statement. If the song was in a higher key, had a higher guitar part, whatever, I would play the higher end of the kit (or the lower for dramatic effect, you get the idea though). I was playing progressive music and wanted to try to "fit" the bands sound better, like a guitarist being in key.

Now, I play mostly pop and simple rock, and there's just no need for it. I was as confident back then as I am now, and frankly, I am less worried about a creative statement (from that perspective) than I was then.

[TFITTING942]

That sounds a bit ham-handed to me. Here's my take:

The small-kit crowd seems to operate on the notion that a really good drummer could play anything in the world on a coffee can, and anything more than that is a waste of space. They have simply bought into a notion popular with non-drummers (and VERY popular with soundmen) that drumming is and never need be anything more than "boom-BAP-boom-boom-BAP!", and thus all you REALLY need are kick, hat and snare . That's absurd.

By the same token, the big-kit crowd is assuming the superiority of tonal variety without much consideration for the rhythmic variety asserted by "small-kit K.O.", although not with as much vigor, and I think most of us are guilty at some point in our drumming lives of dragging a monster around for looks or whatever even if we didn't admit it at the time, even to ourselves. Big kit players can convince themselves of a need for anything regardless of the musical reality at work.

I play both as it suits me, and I'm trying to go down the same road as Bozzio here, so I am staring down the barrel of a 22-piece kit soon, and all of the challenges inherent in the transportation and playing of such a thing. I like smaller kits as well, and I'm working on compositions that deal with the limitations and the possibilities of those kits, but there is a different focus for each one. With the huge kit, my approach is much more about melodic expression along the lines of a mallet player than a drummer, so much of the textural stuff takes a back seat to the melody. Similarly, the small-kit compositions are the reverse and rhythm and dynamics are what sets up the drama of the piece. I can play a nice solo on a 2-pc. kit, but it will be fundamentally different from the nice solo on a 22-pc. kit by its very nature.

I think the small-kit crowd has a valid point if traditional drumset drumming is what's being called for. Most of those situations are going to be pretty straight-ahead and most drummers won't get too far away from the kick, snare and hats/ride there. However, the big-kit crowd makes a fine point: there is a four-piece kit lurking within every large drumset, and it does you no harm to carry it and not use it, versus needing it and not having it.

As far as Bozzio, Collins and others like them are concerned, keep in mind that they are the only one on stage when doing a solo drum show, so the only thing they are making up for is the lack of a band, which is of course, the whole point of what they are doing. I have no doubt that there still exists some yo-yo out there who thinks his bitchen' quad-bass monster will make up for his inability to keep solid time or identify a paradiddle, but most of us are smarter than that (I hope).

And I don't care about dead horses. These threads are fun from time to time!

Dude, your beating a dead hor...opps, sorry...hahahaha
no seriously you are making a 22 piece kit? freakin wow! how long would that take to set up and how do you lug something like that around? If you can play it ( not bashing you by saying that) I say go for it!

[The Parasprinter]

Fun thread, but I don't think there's an answer here. What size kit is more musical depends on each individual drummer, their style, personal preference, etc....

It has a lot to do with what type of music you're playing too. If you're playing an intimate setting with an acoustic jazz trio, you don't have to be concerned about cutting through a loud band the way you would at a rock gig. So you'd be fine with a 4-piece, exploring all the nuances of that smaller kit, and you've got every sound you need at your disposal. Now say you're playing with a loud rock band at a club or something. You probably have to play every drum dead center at a high volume just to be heard. And not only that, you're playing over distorted electric instruments, so subtle sound differences from your drums won't be heard by the audience anyway. The number of distinguishable sounds from your 4 drums (at least from the audience's point of view) has now decreased to.... four. In that case, if you want to add a new sound to your kit, you'd be more likely to add a new piece in place of a new technique.

And let's face it, a lot depends on your audience too. A jazz crowd might enjoy hearing an exploration of all the different sounds you can coax from, say, your snare drum. But do this at a rock gig and you'd better be able to dodge bottles while you play.

I know I'm over-generalizing, and I'm not saying there aren't a lot of GREAT small-kit rock drummers. My point is (I swear I do have one), that large kits ARE compensating, but it's (usually) compensation for the musical environment you're in, rather than compensation for a lack of creativity or the length of your..... umm..... drumsticks. Are there drummers playing huge kits just to distract from their lack of technique and musicality? Definitely. But for every drummer trying to impress you with a monster kit, there's another guy playing everything on a 3-piece just begging for you to tell him how creative and musical he must be.

So, if all goes right, I've avoided answering the question and probably pissed off people on both sides! I think my work here is done. :-)

[trkdrmr]

I am a lifetime member of the Kit's of Medium Appearance or the KMA club.

So, when people argue about smaller or larger kits I just say: "The answer is KMA buddy...just KMA!"

[Mikecore]

... you are making a 22 piece kit? freakin wow! how long would that take to set up and how do you lug something like that around? If you can play it ( not bashing you by saying that) I say go for it!

No offense taken. I'm basically unknown so it's a natural question. I can play the ostinato style stuff, but I'm out of practice since I joined the band and the material needs a lot of work.

As for setup time, it depends on the pressure! The present kit is 18 drums at its fullest and my "relaxed" set up time is around 45 minutes to an hour. That's microphones, cables...the works. I know the arrangement well enough at this point (I've been biting off Bozzio's kit for about ten years now), that I can get it up and moving in 20-30 minutes if I really kick ass. The thing that really eats time is setting up the cymbals. All 42 of them still have to be threaded onto the posts one at a time, and this is while you are fighting for stage space with the rest of the band (sometimes I only bring half when I know there just isn't time or room for all of it).

I've spent many years arguing against the old "too many drums" chestnut, without ever getting anyone to specify: too many drums, for whom?

If I could have my way about it, I'd have a big turntable with a Portnoy-style monster on it, so I could switch between my Bozzio kit, a Bonzo kit, an Elvin kit, a 7-pc., etc...kind of like a guitarist keeps six or seven fiddles onstage depending on the song.

That would be freakin' awesome...

[TFITTING942]

No offense taken. I'm basically unknown so it's a natural question. I can play the ostinato style stuff, but I'm out of practice since I joined the band and the material needs a lot of work.

As for setup time, it depends on the pressure! The present kit is 18 drums at its fullest and my "relaxed" set up time is around 45 minutes to an hour. That's microphones, cables...the works. I know the arrangement well enough at this point (I've been biting off Bozzio's kit for about ten years now), that I can get it up and moving in 20-30 minutes if I really kick ass. The thing that really eats time is setting up the cymbals. All 42 of them still have to be threaded onto the posts one at a time, and this is while you are fighting for stage space with the rest of the band (sometimes I only bring half when I know there just isn't time or room for all of it).

I've spent many years arguing against the old "too many drums" chestnut, without ever getting anyone to specify: too many drums, for whom?

If I could have my way about it, I'd have a big turntable with a Portnoy-style monster on it, so I could switch between my Bozzio kit, a Bonzo kit, an Elvin kit, a 7-pc., etc...kind of like a guitarist keeps six or seven fiddles onstage depending on the song.

That would be freakin' awesome...

I don't know why but I have always been drawn to larger kits. It's like a Lambo driving by, it gets my attention. I started out years ago on a 5pc. and from day one, ( with Keith Moon as my largest inspiratin) I wanted the big kit. I have a 9pc. dbl bass now that I have had for 25 years. my brother in law has an original Ludwig Octa-plus 12 pc. that is just sssssssssooooo much fun to play on. He is amazing and recently buillt himself a kit from keller shells and cast hoops etc. Its a five piece that the floor tom sometimes gets used as a bass to play small stages. He was great on a big kit and still is on the smaller kit. he is now in two working bands gigging all the time.Big or small, as long as your playing. your kit idea would be totally insane!

[mrchattr]

Here are the layouts of my first real gigging kit (it was already a little smaller than what I just had at home, but that doesn't count), then what I am currently using, then what I am working on getting right now:

Cujo:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5002/fullcujo.jpg

Tsunami:
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5751/tsunamilayout.jpg

Raven:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/255/ravenlayout.jpg

[Vipercussionist]

If you personally get confused by too many drums, or if a large kit causes you to see each drum as only having one basic sound, then by all means you should stay away from big kits. Meanwhile, I'll be having a blast playing in a more musical way than is possible on a small kit.
HUH?? So, let me get this straight . . . I can't play as musical on my small kit as the next guy with a bigger kit?? Or is it that YOU can't play more musically on a SMALLER kit??

Your KIT doesn't make music, YOU do.

I say use whatever size kit pumps your nads, but it's WHAT and HOW you play it that makes it musical, not the number of drums you have to hit.

If you think outside the box anything is possible. If you put restrictions on your thinking, you'll never go beyond that boundary.

[trkdrmr]

HUH?? So, let me get this straight . . . I can't play as musical on my small kit as the next guy with a bigger kit?? Or is it that YOU can't play more musically on a SMALLER kit??

Your KIT doesn't make music, YOU do.

I say use whatever size kit pumps your nads, but it's WHAT and HOW you play it that makes it musical, not the number of drums you have to hit.

If you think outside the box anything is possible. If you put restrictions on your thinking, you'll never go beyond that boundary.

Hmm.. Terry Bozzio thinks outside the box....

I think this has been covered. A smaller (4pc) kit can redistribute notes, but you only have TWO notes. With a big kit add on all kinds of musical and melodic possibilities. You can't make 12/16 have the same possibilities as 8/10/12/14/16/18. It's like saying you have a 4-digit combination lock vs an 8-digit lock.

Incidentally, I read that "Finn" is no longer with us, sorry about that (I never knew him). But: As nice as his solo was, it made NO case whatsoever to disprove double pedals and bigger kits can't do even more than he did there.

This thread doesn't really seem like a debate. It seems like smaller kit owners shouting down someone who wants a larger kit, and trying to apply limits on those individuals.

My kit is medium (large to some) but if I am playing "Rolling Stones" all I see is Snare-12" tom/16" floor tom. I tune the rest out. There is no confusion or lack of focus because I have more toys. Transitioning to progressive rock, I don't have to worry about moving notes from an 8" tom or 6" octaban and playing it on a 12" drum. They don't substitute because they don't sound the same.

[michael drums]

Geeessshhhh...


I'm wondering how long this debate, eh hmm...discussion is going to go on? :-|

I mean, SERIOUSLY FOLKS! You mean to tell me that this hasn't been beat to death?


Please just go back and read post # 273 to receive the end all of the discussion.

The winner is...

see post # 273.


Simple, really.

[Brundlefly]

Is it me or are drummers the only musicians who engage in this pointless argument?

Anyway, the other night, I saw this keyboard player who was using an 88 key controller. And I thought, "Just what does he need those extra keys for anyway?" It's not like modern controllers don't come with octave switches. I mean, I have a 61 key controller that can play all of the same notes. Besides, I saw him play an entire set and I swear that there were a number of keys that he never even touched. What's the point of hauling that giant thing around from gig to gig if he's not even going to use it all? He probably would have played better if he didn't have all those extra keys distracting him.

[trkdrmr]

Is it me or are drummers the only musicians who engage in this pointless argument?

Anyway, the other night, I saw this keyboard player who was using an 88 key controller. And I thought, "Just what does he need those extra keys for anyway?" It's not like modern controllers don't come with octave switches. I mean, I have a 61 key controller that can play all of the same notes. Besides, I saw him play an entire set and I swear that there were a number of keys that he never even touched. What's the point of hauling that giant thing around from gig to gig if he's not even going to use it all? He probably would have played better if he didn't have all those extra keys distracting him.

Yep, someone used the keyboard analogy somewhere in the thread. Imagine if someone came up to Jimmy Page and said "Why do you need a 12 string? That's too many! You need to stick to less strings or you can't be creative!"

[Dedworx]

What is the deal with humongus kits sometimes. I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what. Take Bill Stewart compared to Terry Bozzio. Yeah different styles but, come on. Someone I just want to hear your take on it.

By the way speak up I'm losing my hearing as we speak.

i think any size is good depending on the music your going to play and what you need to make the music happen.

i personally play a small kit and as few cymbals as possible because i have to lug it everywhere, studios, gigs, home,whatever. much rather it be simpler than a huge ordeal.
if i scored a big tour or was playing for a famous artist or band and had a drum tech and less travel worries, i might play a slightly larger kit.

its all good though. would be boring if everyone thought identical.

[Deathmetalconga]

I don't know why but I have always been drawn to larger kits. It's like a Lambo driving by, it gets my attention. I started out years ago on a 5pc. and from day one, ( with Keith Moon as my largest inspiratin) I wanted the big kit. I have a 9pc. dbl bass now that I have had for 25 years. my brother in law has an original Ludwig Octa-plus 12 pc. that is just sssssssssooooo much fun to play on. He is amazing and recently buillt himself a kit from keller shells and cast hoops etc. Its a five piece that the floor tom sometimes gets used as a bass to play small stages. He was great on a big kit and still is on the smaller kit. he is now in two working bands gigging all the time.Big or small, as long as your playing. your kit idea would be totally insane!

I think that a lot of people overlook how much FUN it is to play a big monster kit (not so much fun to haul around and set up). There is so much intensity and brow-furrowing surrounding the study and performance of music that we often forget that fun is a perfectly legitimate goal.

I've always played a mid-size set, like most people, but when I've sat behind someone's monster kit I feel like a kid in a candy store.

[bobdadruma]

Over 400 posts and counting in this debate. I read about one hundred of them at different times. It has been an interesting thread. There are extremes, and extremist in all activities, Monster Trucks, Skiing, Base jumping, Etc. It only stands to reason that some drummers will follow suit! I don't think that it is simply a matter of, "My kit is bigger that your kit." I think that some folks just have the need to keep exploring. Like someone collects baseball cards, They collect drums. The more drums and cymbals that they have in front of them, The more they like their kits. I don't see a problem with it. Music is about expression. If it feels good, Do it! On the other hand, If you feel good with four drums and three cymbals in front of you, Thats OK too! It doesn't make you a lessor drummer. Play as many pieces as you like, or can afford.

[TFITTING942]

I think that a lot of people overlook how much FUN it is to play a big monster kit (not so much fun to haul around and set up). There is so much intensity and brow-furrowing surrounding the study and performance of music that we often forget that fun is a perfectly legitimate goal.

I've always played a mid-size set, like most people, but when I've sat behind someone's monster kit I feel like a kid in a candy store.

Um, I looked at your "mid-size" kit and the funny part is, I have just enough room to store it for you anytime! VERY NICE!

[michael drums]

Oh, Geez!


Humans.


:-|

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Geeessshhhh...


I'm wondering how long this debate, eh hmm...discussion is going to go on? :-|

I mean, SERIOUSLY FOLKS! You mean to tell me that this hasn't been beat to death?


Please just go back and read post # 273 to receive the end all of the discussion.

The winner is...

see post # 273.


Simple, really.

Quite fond of 272, personally.

[MattParker]

This is my new set up i'm playing with.

[diosdude]

You guys all know my kit by now. It's not a preference, it's just WHO I AM . I tried putting together a smaller 6-pc kit (20BD, 14SD, 8,10,12 Racks and a 14 floor) as my primary gig kit but as soon as i saw a matching add-on 13" rack and 16" floor tom on ebay for 60 bucks each, i just couldn't help myself. I don't look down on anybody who is content to play a 4 pc, i watch drummers like max weinberg play on simple kits and I'm in awe. I can definitely wail on a 4pc and some say it forces you to be more creative, but i disagree, i'm going to be just as expressive and just as creative whether i play my monster kit or a pair of plastic paint buckets down in a subway, i just think of myself as a monster kit drummer.

[Vipercussionist]

Geeessshhhh...


I'm wondering how long this debate, eh hmm...discussion is going to go on? :-|

I mean, SERIOUSLY FOLKS! You mean to tell me that this hasn't been beat to death?


Please just go back and read post # 273 to receive the end all of the discussion.

The winner is...

see post # 273.


Simple, really.Well, HERE is # 273:
Well, well...An UN-arguable debate. Drummers are people. People are different. Hence the "ground-breaking" concept...Not all drum-kits will be the same.

Look, whatever the music calls for, is whatever tools you'll need. It's going to be different for everyone who plays different music and styles. Some need a small kit for what they accomplish. Some need a big kit to create their "product".

Drummers such as Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain, Portnoy, etc...use the big kit to create what the music calls for. Drummers like Watts, Starr, Colaiuta, Carey, and a lot of jazz drummers, use the small(er) kits to create their mastery.

This really is not a debatable issue. No one kit is better than the other. It's how each one is "hit with the sticks" that matters.

Merry Christmas...Play On! And as far as I can see, it merely furthers the "argument".

My only point is there ISN'T a particular size kit that HAS to go with whatever kind of music you're playing. It's COMPLETELY up to the player! If a guy in a Jazz band want's to use a HUGE rock kit by all means it's the right thing to do. Hell it worked for Tony Williams!!

Drummers such as Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain, Portnoy, etc...use the big kit to create what THEY call for. It's THEIR creativity that dictates what kit they desire to do what comes to THEIR minds. If the said drummers used a Hat, Snare and Kick it would STILL be their choice of how THEY decided to express their music and because they are so creative I would think it would be every BIT as awesome. You're telling me Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain and Portnoy would be stymied on a small kit?? Impossible!!

It's not because of some predetermined set of rules that state a certain size kit is to be used for a certain kind of music. It's MUSIC damn it, it's ALL about how it's interpreted by the individual player, not by following the last guy's lead.

Playing outside the box IS About doing what YOU see fit, not about HAVING to use this or that size kit JUST BECAUSE of the style of music you play

"You can't play colorful on that 4 piece kit!!"

Preposterous!!

[michael drums]

Well, HERE is # 273:
And as far as I can see, it merely furthers the "argument".

My only point is there ISN'T a particular size kit that HAS to go with whatever kind of music you're playing. It's COMPLETELY up to the player! If a guy in a Jazz band want's to use a HUGE rock kit by all means it's the right thing to do. Hell it worked for Tony Williams!!

Drummers such as Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain, Portnoy, etc...use the big kit to create what THEY call for. It's THEIR creativity that dictates what kit they desire to do what comes to THEIR minds. If the said drummers used a Hat, Snare and Kick it would STILL be their choice of how THEY decided to express their music and because they are so creative I would think it would be every BIT as awesome. You're telling me Bozzio, Peart, Phillips, McBrain and Portnoy would be stymied on a small kit?? Impossible!!

It's not because of some predetermined set of rules that state a certain size kit is to be used for a certain kind of music. It's MUSIC damn it, it's ALL about how it's interpreted by the individual player, not by following the last guy's lead.

Playing outside the box IS About doing what YOU see fit, not about HAVING to use this or that size kit JUST BECAUSE of the style of music you play

"You can't play colorful on that 4 piece kit!!"

Preposterous!!

Well Viper...


it sounds good, but what I said, and meant, was exactly that. I never said that a particular drummer HAS to have a "pre-determined" drum-kit size for whatever the music calls for. I said that humans are different and drummers are humans. Hence, drum kits will be different. Whether in size or content.

It's up to the "individual" drummer to determine what would be beneficial to the song in relation to the drums. And if it coincides with the other instruments/musicians. Hence, that may mean that the drummer can add or subtract the number of drums he or she has in their arsenal.

I also never said that a drummer couldn't play a smaller kit and be successful at creating a colorful sound. The 5 you mentioned would certainly be capable of brilliance with a small kit. I may be in the minority, but I believe Peart did just that during the Burning for Buddy event(s).

And what is preposterous is the # of posts in this thread, and STILL, it continues after 456 of 'em! And that you believe that my last post furthers the "argument". :-|

There IS no argument to this. What debate? This thread should've been over 450 posts ago. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SIZE IT IS...IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT! ;-)

Ah, hemm...Sorry 'bout that folks. I had to big letter that for those that couldn't get my point 183 POSTS AGO!

:-|


P.S. See post # 445

[bobdadruma]

I love this thread! The dead horse that won't stop breathing!

[DrummerDavid]

I don't care what drummers use-as long as they sound good.

[Vipercussionist]

Well Viper...


it sounds good, but what I said, and meant, was exactly that. I never said that a particular drummer HAS to have a "pre-determined" drum-kit size for whatever the music calls for. I said that humans are different and drummers are humans. Hence, drum kits will be different. Whether in size or content.

It's up to the "individual" drummer to determine what would be beneficial to the song in relation to the drums. And if it coincides with the other instruments/musicians. Hence, that may mean that the drummer can add or subtract the number of drums he or she has in their arsenal.

I also never said that a drummer couldn't play a smaller kit and be successful at creating a colorful sound. The 5 you mentioned would certainly be capable of brilliance with a small kit. I may be in the minority, but I believe Peart did just that during the Burning for Buddy event(s).

And what is preposterous is the # of posts in this thread, and STILL, it continues after 456 of 'em! And that you believe that my last post furthers the "argument". :-|

There IS no argument to this. What debate? This thread should've been over 450 posts ago. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SIZE IT IS...IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT! ;-)

Ah, hemm...Sorry 'bout that folks. I had to big letter that for those that couldn't get my point 183 POSTS AGO!

:-|


P.S. See post # 445IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT SIZE IT IS...IT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH IT! Yes, That's what I was trying to say but there are those in this thread that are convinced that the kit size dictates the type of music to be played on it or worse yet how WELL it can be played. That's just ridiculous!

Se la vie (sp?) I guess . . .


Thanks Michael!!
Then it seems at least a few of us are on the right page!!

[zambizzi]

I'm going to strap the oxygen mask onto this dead horse, hit it w/ the defibrillators a few times, and then kick it until it hops back to its feet. Hope you don't mind.

I bought my big MCX kit a little less than 2 mo. ago and have already fallen back to a 4pc. setup. While I was "like a kid in a candy store" for a couple of weeks...it got old fast.

Now, I'm fairly inexperienced...I've only been playing for about 2 yrs. Here's my assessment so far of the "big kit vs. small kit" debate...MY personal opinion. Here's what I've been asking myself:

Why would anyone in most styles of music need any more than a 4pc. setup?

Remember, it's a rhetorical question - I'm not asking anyone to provide me with a bunch of examples...links to Terry Bozzio's kit, YouTube videos demonstrating monster chops. It's just what I've been saying to myself.

I think I'm going to be playing a 4pc. for a very long time...I can't escape it. It feels great. I feel more creative, less crowded, more focused, and yes...sue me...MUSICAL.:) I'm less inclined to play big, unnecessary fills and to me...there isn't enough benefit to having a bunch of extra toms? The return is too small...I have to tune and haul a bunch of extra drums for some slightly different sounds. Most of the time I'm grooving anyhow...so what's the point?

Is it inexperience talking? Am I gradually maturing, in my drumming? My conclusion is; I just don't see any point to playing a big kit.

[Bruce M. Thomson]

What is the deal with humongus kits sometimes. I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what. Take Bill Stewart compared to Terry Bozzio. Yeah different styles but, come on. Someone I just want to hear your take on it.

By the way speak up I'm losing my hearing as we speak.

The point is the music they make with their choice It doesn't really matter in the end, if you enjoy the music that's all there is to it.. I play a simple kit but I bet you if I were to have an opportunity to rehearse and play (well) a large kit , I would probably really dig it; I think most drummers would. It may not be my personal and final choice but those that play the large kits do it very well.

[caddywumpus]

I love this thread! The dead horse that won't stop breathing!

It's just the hydrogen sulfide and methane leaking out...

[Deathmetalconga]

I'm going to strap the oxygen mask onto this dead horse, hit it w/ the defibrillators a few times, and then kick it until it hops back to its feet. Hope you don't mind.

I bought my big MCX kit a little less than 2 mo. ago and have already fallen back to a 4pc. setup. While I was "like a kid in a candy store" for a couple of weeks...it got old fast.

Now, I'm fairly inexperienced...I've only been playing for about 2 yrs. Here's my assessment so far of the "big kit vs. small kit" debate...MY personal opinion. Here's what I've been asking myself:

Why would anyone in most styles of music need any more than a 4pc. setup?

Remember, it's a rhetorical question - I'm not asking anyone to provide me with a bunch of examples...links to Terry Bozzio's kit, YouTube videos demonstrating monster chops. It's just what I've been saying to myself.

I think I'm going to be playing a 4pc. for a very long time...I can't escape it. It feels great. I feel more creative, less crowded, more focused, and yes...sue me...MUSICAL.:) I'm less inclined to play big, unnecessary fills and to me...there isn't enough benefit to having a bunch of extra toms? The return is too small...I have to tune and haul a bunch of extra drums for some slightly different sounds. Most of the time I'm grooving anyhow...so what's the point?

Is it inexperience talking? Am I gradually maturing, in my drumming? My conclusion is; I just don't see any point to playing a big kit.

Most people play mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. It allows me to play big, necessary fills, as well and small necessary fills, or no fills at all. Yes, I have to haul around a lot of drums and cymbals that don't get used so much. But using just a certain cymbal sound, even if its only a couple of times the whole gig, adds a burst of color.

I like a mid-sized kit for portability, but I would really like to have a monster set, although I just don't want to hassle with all the moving.

I have only played a small kit a couple of times and I always started adding more cymbals and percussion and drums. I only add something to the set if it lets me do or express something I could not otherwise.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

In my case, the set I found had 4 toms. I recently bought a look-a-like 16 floor tom just for accessability or variety. I either have the 14 floor or the 16 floor but not both. My 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 toms give me the ability to mix and match a myriad of set ups. I can play a four, five, six or seven piece if I want or need to. I played a four for a few weeks but the drums not set up were just in the way.(small house) So I put them back up with the rack.
No matter what you have or play, make the best of it, but since being on this forum I have seem many people pay a lot for one additional drum, that they could have had for pennies when they originally bought their set. I paid 650 for my set and the matching 16 floor is over 300 dollars so to me I would suggest buy and store it if you have the room.

[mrchattr]

My take on the "big kit" thing is that there are multiple reasons to have big kits, and the problem here is that a lot of people only see it as one or the other.

The fact is, there are a LOT of people who play big kits because they think they are cool, or are compensating, or whatever immature reasons you may name. I think one of the most obvious ways to tell that this is the situation is when people buy a ton of drums to have a big kit, but they are crappy drums.

On the other hand, there are also people who genuinely use a ton of drums effectively, and do so for musical reasons. I think both can exist.

To me, there is a big difference between a drummer with a 14 piece DW kit (or even mid-level goodness, like Pro Ms, etc) who actually uses all the drums, gigs them, etc, and a drummer with a 14 piece Pearl Export kit or whatever, who only uses a few pieces of it when he gigs, etc.

Now, my thoughts here might take some crap because I mention the money aspect. But where I am coming from with that is that if you have $600 to spend on a kit, and get a 10 piece crap kit rather than a 4 piece good kit, it's hard to say that you are really worried about your sound quality, etc.

[wolfie]

I personally like to play on a small kit.

I play on a 4 pc with 1 ride, 1 crash, and a hihat.

For me I find it inspiers me to be more creative by limiting myself.
and using what I have to the limit.

[theuntitleddrummer]

Well i thought it was the style that the drummer is interested in because my example is metal drummers....most of their fills require not 2 toms but like a good 4 toms but in jazz all you really need is the snare, bass, and cymbals...
Overall my take is that it really depends what style of music you play

[Pollyanna]

The fact is, there are a LOT of people who play big kits because they think they are cool, or are compensating, or whatever immature reasons you may name.
Mr C, I think that's a bit tough. It's just being showy, and showmanship is part of the game in some genres. In metal it's compulsory for drummers to have big kits or they won't have a hope of winning auditions.

Some musos have a much stronger emphasis on 'image' than others. I knew a bass player who was so caught up with image that her bass playing was of secondary importance. She knew she was a weak player so she tried to make up for it with 'image'.

I think that's a fair enough approach too. Music is about communication and musicians have long used non-musical means to get their message across - from Mozart's productions to Gene Krupa's showiness to Jimi's pyrotechnics to the Sex Pistol's to Maynard's face paint. They have succeeded in giving people pleasure and that's a good thing.

Personally, I'm a small kit gal myself, and I agree with Wolfie:

... I find it inspires me to be more creative by limiting myself and using what I have to the limit.

You have to be resourceful to make up for not having those extra 'voices' at hand. It also makes for a LOT less lugging. I have a very small kit:

Snare
Djembe
Stompbox
Hats
Crash/ride cymbal.

I have to use rimshots, strike the drums in different spots, use different 'input devices' - wire brushes, plastic brushes, sticks, malletts and hands to think of unusual combinations of the few pieces what I have. I also like to play a supporting role and occasionally throw in stuff that I think adds to the song. As others have said, it often depends on the genre.

Still, I can see why people go for the monster kits - even those who don't have the chops to handle it. It looks impressive, you can do 'hero fills' and have exactly the right drum or cymbal 'voice' on hand for when you need it. The showmanship aspect can even increase the amount the band can charge, but it also limits your options since some stages can't accommodate a big kit. Maybe that doesn't matter since a big kit says, "I wanna be big time!" :)

Maybe part of the heat of this thread has been because some small kit players resent the fact that laypersons are impressed by big kits. It's perhaps the same reason why some jazzers resent rockers, whose approaches they see as unrefined and cumbersome - yet they make the $$ and win fame and fortune, despite being perhaps less controlled. What they forget is that it's all about choices and, to some extent, luck. It's bummer of those who are passionate about jazz that they prefer that to better-piad genres, but them's the breaks.

In the end we all fill some kind of niche in the musical food chain so it's all good.

[ccutler69]

Now, my thoughts here might take some crap because I mention the money aspect. But where I am coming from with that is that if you have $600 to spend on a kit, and get a 10 piece crap kit rather than a 4 piece good kit, it's hard to say that you are really worried about your sound quality, etc.


That strikes a cord with me.

when I first started out years ago I had a double bass kit with 5 toms, 5 cymbals and they were all crap. I realized this after playing other peoples kits and gaining more experience.
They were hard to haul around and took up too much space and made my playing sloppy.

long story short, I sold my beater to some middle school kid and bought myself a smaller 4pc kit to enable greater portability. I don't have people lug my drums around so this was a priority. Top it off with a hihat, crash and ride and hauling it around was much easier. And it wasnt like putting together a jigsaw puzzle to get all my drums in my car.

although it i had techs i would probably have a huge kit haha

[victoriousmusic]

Hi guys!
What a huge thread!
I don't guess it matters much to me what anyone plays as long as the drums sound good and the cymbals sound GREAT! Different strokes for diff. folks, huh?
Me personally, I've never had a huge kit. I played the same 5 piece kit for 25 years and only ever added 2 cymbals as when I got it when I was 14 it came with only hats and one crash/ride. Now I play a 4 piece with more cymbals than drums. I guess I'm a cymbal person as I love to explore sounds with them. (I still only have hats and 4 cym). I've never used double pedal but recently got one because I think it would be cool on a few of our tunes. The alternate reason I got it was to build up strength in my legs. Since my illness I've used drumming to regain my leg and arm, hand strength during my recovery. I don't think I had confidence I could ever play double bass before, but now it's "therapeutic" to me and if I suck on it, it won't matter because I'm still benefitting from it..if that makes sense. In the back of my mind I ALWAYS had a voice that said "you don't even play the drums you have well enough to justify buying more" kind of feeling. Kind of like a guitar player who is mediocre playing a $3,000 PRS.
In the end I think anything is okay. IF I had an endorsement and could get any setup I liked, I'd probably get a large setup just to try it out. I may or may not take ALL of it to each gig I played but I'd have it to work with and see if I liked it. BUT, for my own needs I feel what I have is fine. Creatvity is an individual thing and whatever you use it can be creative or not. It's up to you. I find using some additional toys for certain things really helps add to the sound colors (cowbell, splash, tamb, even vibraslap or wind chimes) I've used all these plus more at different times.
I find no fault in anyone using big/small kits to their liking. Whatever floats your boat! I like to watch and see what you do with what you have either way!
My 2 cents.
Melinda

[mrchattr]

Mr C, I think that's a bit tough. It's just being showy, and showmanship is part of the game in some genres. In metal it's compulsory for drummers to have big kits or they won't have a hope of winning auditions.


Hey Pollyanna. First of all, do you have pics of your kit? It sounds awesome!

As far as this is concerned, if you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I explained that I believe there are plenty of people who play big kits for a real reason (like the ones you mentioned). I am saying that both groups exist...the people who use a big kit for the types of reasons you mentioned, and then the people who do just do it to feel cool, etc.

One great lithmus test, for me, is how much of the kit a drummer uses for their gigging. If you have 100 drums and use a five-piece to play live, there is no way you can use the arguments like, "I need this full kit to express myself fully." I'm not talking about someone who has a huge metal kit or something then gets a jazz gig so only takes a portion of their kit. I'm talking about the oft-seen "I need 100 drums to express myself correctly...but use a 5 piece at shows, because I don't want to lug it all around," and stuff like that.

[mrchattr]

One other point to make here. Why is it that people with big kits feel the need to say it's for a musical reason all the time? What's wrong with liking toys, having a lot of them, and having fun with them, especially if you can afford them. We are a society that loves its Porches and other cool cars, despite the fact that they aren't economical and can't even hold a nesting kit in some cases. We eat expensive foods at expensive restaurants. But you almost never see anyone say "I have a big kit because I like it and think it's cool, and frankly, I was able to get all this, so why not?"

I think a lot of the debate here would die if the owners of big kits, that own them for that reason, didn't seem so ashamed of the fact that they need to come up with other reasons, which in many cases are't valid.

[MadJazz]

I think big kits are cool, but yeah I also feel a lot of drummers try and make themselves look better by having a bigger kit. Drummers that can have awsome solos with three toms such as Steve Gadd I seem to respect a bit more. Terry Bozzio is also one of my favorite drummers, but I always question myself whether or not he needs so many drums.

If you can play well, why would you hide behind a monster kit?

The smaller the set, the better you can see the drummer. I'd say that drummers with big kits try to compensate for something.

[Deathmetalconga]

If you can play well, why would you hide behind a monster kit?

The smaller the set, the better you can see the drummer. I'd say that drummers with big kits try to compensate for something.

Yes, but big kits can shoot smaller kits in the face, and are therefore superior.

[Deathmetalconga]

One other point to make here. Why is it that people with big kits feel the need to say it's for a musical reason all the time? What's wrong with liking toys, having a lot of them, and having fun with them, especially if you can afford them. We are a society that loves its Porches and other cool cars, despite the fact that they aren't economical and can't even hold a nesting kit in some cases. We eat expensive foods at expensive restaurants. But you almost never see anyone say "I have a big kit because I like it and think it's cool, and frankly, I was able to get all this, so why not?"

I think a lot of the debate here would die if the owners of big kits, that own them for that reason, didn't seem so ashamed of the fact that they need to come up with other reasons, which in many cases are't valid.

Good points. There is so much brow-furrowing seriousness around music that it's sometimes nice to appreciate the pure and simple fun of playing. It's okay to play just for the sheer joy of playing. For whatever reasons, for some people, a large kit does that for them.

I think most people seek a balance, which is why they play on mid-sized kits of 5 to 8 pieces. For the majority of drummers who play on mid-sized kits, they have settled the "debate." That leaves the minority playing on small kits to debate the issue with the even smaller minority of people who play on monster kits (9 pieces and up as I define it).

[Pollyanna]

Hi again Mr Chattr

Sure I read all of your posts and the only thing I'd like to do is soften your comment that it's about 'compensation', with the implication that the big kit player may be compensating for lack of skill or, dare I say it, lack of endowment that prompts some men to buy very cool-looking and fast cars in bright colours (ahem). I suspect you're thinking about the former rather than the latter :)

I agree with you about the boys' toys but the debate, to my mind, was "solved" when the first time someone said that it depends on the band and genre. I think compensating for modest skills with gimmicks like monster kits, a cool image or whatever provides showmanship which adds to a band's appeal. If the drummer has skill and can take advantage of the extra pieces, all the better. This is especially the case with metal bands, which appear to this outsider to be the musical equivalent of a slasher/horror film.

Ok, you wanted to see my little drumset ...

http://au.geocities.com/googla007/Drums-003-copy.jpg

Now I want to you to imagine a metal drummer fronting up on stage with my minimalist setup. It would be like watching a horror movie where the monster is Monty Python's white rabbit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvs5pqf-DMA). It would be the percussive equivalent of Spinal Tap's 11 inch stonehenge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXGbwIkvh38) :)

However, for a little band like mine that's aiming to pick up gigs at wine bars, restaurants and jazz clubs, playing at low volume and squeezing into small spaces, my kit's fine. We're a fluffy white bunny kinda band with a touch of comedy (our singer has a lot of experience with standup and hosting karaoke) so my cute little drumkit suits it perfectly :)

[eddiehimself]

If you can play well, why would you hide behind a monster kit?

The smaller the set, the better you can see the drummer. I'd say that drummers with big kits try to compensate for something.

Why are people always obsessed with this whole "compensating for something" idea anyway? I get the feeling that people who say this really are just jeallous of what someone else has, and i don't just mean in terms of money, but also in the fact that they wish they could truly express themselves rather than what everybody else wants to see.
So they make out that this person with their big drumkit and big loud BMW/Porsche/Mistubishi/Electric blue Vauxhall Corsa with tinted windows and 2 8" exhausts must be badly endowed, in order to restore the balance of the world as they percieve it.

Also the title you gave your post was quite frankly unconstructive and uneseccary. We're having a discussion about the size of people's drumkits, not their meat and 2 veg mate.


Personally i have to agree with mrchttr here. Why not have a big drumkit? Why do we have to explain to people why we want to have such a beast? Music is like love, it's something that can't be explained and no matter what you choose it will be envy of some and incomprehensable why you'd feel that way by others. That's just how it works.

The other thing linking music and love is that MEN always HAVE to make it into a bloody competition as to who has the biggest todger! That's what we do!!!

[Pollyanna]

From my end, I have NO problem with strapping young men hauling their 15 tonnes of drum gear around :)

[TheArchitect]

If you can play well, why would you hide behind a monster kit?

The smaller the set, the better you can see the drummer. I'd say that drummers with big kits try to compensate for something.

Where do you even begin to respond to this nonsense?

[Deathmetalconga]

Why are people always obsessed with this whole "compensating for something" idea anyway? I get the feeling that people who say this really are just jeallous of what someone else has, and i don't just mean in terms of money, but also in the fact that they wish they could truly express themselves rather than what everybody else wants to see.
So they make out that this person with their big drumkit and big loud BMW/Porsche/Mistubishi/Electric blue Vauxhall Corsa with tinted windows and 2 8" exhausts must be badly endowed, in order to restore the balance of the world as they percieve it.

Also the title you gave your post was quite frankly unconstructive and uneseccary. We're having a discussion about the size of people's drumkits, not their meat and 2 veg mate.


Personally i have to agree with mrchttr here. Why not have a big drumkit? Why do we have to explain to people why we want to have such a beast? Music is like love, it's something that can't be explained and no matter what you choose it will be envy of some and incomprehensable why you'd feel that way by others. That's just how it works.

The other thing linking music and love is that MEN always HAVE to make it into a bloody competition as to who has the biggest todger! That's what we do!!!

Personally, I think people who play small kits secretly wish to be mistaken for jazz drummers. And if they really are jazz drummers, they want to make darn sure everyone else knows it.

They don't think they're very good and try to compensate for that by playing a small kit, so they can say to others, "I play a small kit so I am obviously focused on musicality and I'm not trying to compensate for anything, other than that I want my kit to make a statement about my level of talent."

Only other drummers notice this. Other musicians, or audience members, are barely aware that you play anything at all.

[mrchattr]

Personally, I think people who play small kits secretly wish to be mistaken for jazz drummers. And if they really are jazz drummers, they want to make darn sure everyone else knows it.

They don't think they're very good and try to compensate for that by playing a small kit, so they can say to others, "I play a small kit so I am obviously focused on musicality and I'm not trying to compensate for anything, other than that I want my kit to make a statement about my level of talent."

Only other drummers notice this. Other musicians, or audience members, are barely aware that you play anything at all.

That's hilarious on so many levels. Almost every drummer who plays a small kit that I talk to, myself included, says it's because we don't want to lug a ton of gear around, want a small load in time, and small footprint for smaller stages.

[mrchattr]

Hi again Mr Chattr

Sure I read all of your posts and the only thing I'd like to do is soften your comment that it's about 'compensation', with the implication that the big kit player may be compensating for lack of skill or, dare I say it, lack of endowment that prompts some men to buy very cool-looking and fast cars in bright colours (ahem). I suspect you're thinking about the former rather than the latter :)

I agree with you about the boys' toys but the debate, to my mind, was "solved" when the first time someone said that it depends on the band and genre. I think compensating for modest skills with gimmicks like monster kits, a cool image or whatever provides showmanship which adds to a band's appeal. If the drummer has skill and can take advantage of the extra pieces, all the better. This is especially the case with metal bands, which appear to this outsider to be the musical equivalent of a slasher/horror film.



The "compensation" thing (as far as for a small...uh...well, let's just say I was not talking about a talent level) was meant as a joke. So yeah, we are basically on the same page.

That's a cool little set up. Can you provide me more info about that stompbox? I have tried getting some info on one that you can plug in, which I want to add to my acoustic set up, but when I search it mostly brings up guitar pedals, which they call "stomp boxes" as well.

[justjim]

If you can play well, why would you hide behind a monster kit?

I suppose there's a way around hiding...massively huge kit with acrylic shells and clear heads!

hopefully the convex nature of the shells would impart a magnifying effect when performing sans pants

[Deathmetalconga]

That's hilarious on so many levels. Almost every drummer who plays a small kit that I talk to, myself included, says it's because we don't want to lug a ton of gear around, want a small load in time, and small footprint for smaller stages.

I don't actually believe that four-piece players secretly wish to be mistaken for jazz drummers (well, maybe the hardcores ones).

The whole chops vs. groove, big kit vs. small kit discussions are on the level of Enterprise vs. Death Star. It's Interesting to tease out the same nuances over and over and over again on the threads, tying in sociology, physics, neurochemistry, economics, ergonomics and existence of God (oh yeah, and music too). There are so many variables and personal preferences that nothing can ever really be resolved.

[justjim]

There are so many variables and personal preferences that nothing can ever really be resolved.

I guess that's the thing - even beyond the variables - we don't really have anything TO resolve (ie question is largely undefined as it's, at most, qualitative) - there's no problem, just peeps and the shit they do (I guess we could say the solution set s the same size as the population set)


I have to play an extremely small kit (A charles' chips steel canister) because my generous endowment tends to get caught on trad trap kit hardware.
I've tried to be careful, but it's so pythonlike, it often goes hunting for mice while I am concentrating on other things like drumming.

the less well-endowed people will, of course, not have this problem and can choose based on other things

[mrchattr]

I don't actually believe that four-piece players secretly wish to be mistaken for jazz drummers (well, maybe the hardcores ones).

The whole chops vs. groove, big kit vs. small kit discussions are on the level of Enterprise vs. Death Star. It's Interesting to tease out the same nuances over and over and over again on the threads, tying in sociology, physics, neurochemistry, economics, ergonomics and existence of God (oh yeah, and music too). There are so many variables and personal preferences that nothing can ever really be resolved.

No, I know you don't, that's why it was so funny. I laughed a good bit reading that post.

The truth is, I agree with you about the variables and stuff. I just wish everyone would realize that there are LOTS of reasons for people to have big kits or small kits. All of the generalizations that get tossed around just suck.

[TheJuiceman]

No, I know you don't, that's why it was so funny. I laughed a good bit reading that post.

The truth is, I agree with you about the variables and stuff. I just wish everyone would realize that there are LOTS of reasons for people to have big kits or small kits. All of the generalizations that get tossed around just suck.

True that!
I play a big kit (double kick, snare, 7 toms, 7 cymbals) and I use all of it. (including the frying pan!) and am so sick of other drummers seeing my rig and automatically assuming I'm some Neil Peart wannabe or a hack wailer who cannot play a 3 piece jazz set.
I play it because if my band decides they wanna play some Iron Maiden style stuff, I'm not stuck trying to do big fills on a small rig...that's all.
Some jobs require a screwdriver, some require a whole toolbox. Ability to get the job done is not based on the tools you have, but the tools you use.

Never really considered how the size of my junk effects my playing abilities though... Hmmm

[zafrothunder]

I just compromise and do a small kit with big drums and cymbals

[eddiehimself]

Some jobs require a screwdriver, some require a whole toolbox.


I think that's very true. Okay, i might be able to do most things with a multi attachment screwdriver and some pliers. However, there are some times where you just need a wrench to get the job done. Might not be many, but it's good to know it's there when i need it!

[Pachikara-Tharakan]

If I have enough money and a technician who can tune all of those, I would rather get a big kit.

[Naigewron]

I'd love to have a couple of extra toms, cymbals and maybe even two bass drums. However, as long as I don't have a drum tech, a tour bus, a roadie crew, a few endorsements and I frequently play on small stages, I think my kit (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43486) is the perfect balance for me. Big enough for me to pull off whatever I feel like, and small enough to fit both on small stages and in my car.

[Pollyanna]

I agree with justjim. There's nothing to resolve. It's not the point. We're just looking at the pros and cons.

The cool thing about small kits is that you lug and set up less, pay less, use fewer resources, fit into smaller spaces and you have to be resourceful and look more carefully at subtleties and use of space for variation.

The cool thing about big kits is they look impressive, provide more variety of sound, more options, more colours, and are louder through allowing more doubles and more sympathetic vibration.

[Deathmetalconga]

I'd love to have a couple of extra toms, cymbals and maybe even two bass drums. However, as long as I don't have a drum tech, a tour bus, a roadie crew, a few endorsements and I frequently play on small stages, I think my kit (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43486) is the perfect balance for me. Big enough for me to pull off whatever I feel like, and small enough to fit both on small stages and in my car.

Like most people, you play a mid-sized kit. There is no mid-sized kit debate. Most people just simply play them.

[Naigewron]

Like most people, you play a mid-sized kit. There is no mid-sized kit debate. Most people just simply play them.

My point, however, was that I wouldn't mind a big kit. Just choosing sides, in my own way :-)

[nicotine25]

I used to be addicted to big sets....I had a gretsch with 8,10,12,14,22, 3 snares, mini timbales, woodblocks, cowbells, ice bells, conga, bongos, chimes, 2 hats 4 crashes, 3 chinas, 4 splashes, ride and 2 accent cymbals..all on a gibraltar rack .I collected this for the better part of 15 years.....after coming to an epihany i realizied that it was actually holding me back, in terms of being creative....I never had to cross stick because I had wood blocks, I never used the bell of my ride because I had an Ice bell, I never played on my rims, cause I had cowbells, etc. So I scaled back to a moderate 5 pc....12,14,22 and 2 snares....2 crashes ride and 2 hats....I found it liberating and I personally have developed my sound much further than I had with the fore mentioned big kit....I stoped pretending that I could play like Portnoy or Pert and started to play like ME

[Concrete Pete]

Hey Crew,

I watched this thread before I posted, and have numerous opinions-- (which I will not bore all with).

Suffice it to say that I have a "half a Harley" 1969 Shovester/Sportster that was 51 H. P. from the factory. Now it's (built it myself) 98.9 H. P., and will do 146.11 MPH. Zero to 60 in less than 3.
I also have a big fat 1972 FLH Harley Wide Glide that's bone stock, and is my "beater/cruiser" bike which will do 95 MPH all day long, BUT eats twice the fuel, and is a lot more comfortable ride.

My point? It's not what you have , it's what you DO WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.

It's not the kit or the equipment, it's purely what you can do with it. Period.

Cheers,
C. P.

[TheArchitect]

I used to be addicted to big sets....I had a gretsch with 8,10,12,14,22, 3 snares, mini timbales, woodblocks, cowbells, ice bells, conga, bongos, chimes, 2 hats 4 crashes, 3 chinas, 4 splashes, ride and 2 accent cymbals..all on a gibraltar rack .I collected this for the better part of 15 years.....after coming to an epihany i realizied that it was actually holding me back, in terms of being creative....I never had to cross stick because I had wood blocks, I never used the bell of my ride because I had an Ice bell, I never played on my rims, cause I had cowbells, etc. So I scaled back to a moderate 5 pc....12,14,22 and 2 snares....2 crashes ride and 2 hats....I found it liberating and I personally have developed my sound much further than I had with the fore mentioned big kit....I stoped pretending that I could play like Portnoy or Pert and started to play like ME

The only thing holding you back was you..... Quit blaming the equipment

[Vipercussionist]

Whatever reasons any drummer puts together to rationalize the size or configuration of their kit is their business. As is however they would play whatever "style" music they are playing. I see NO musical advantage to ANY size kit, it's MUSIC and it's ALL about each drummers way of doing things and adding their OWN personality to the music, and if they do that with a SMALL kit so be it, if with a LARGE kit, so be it.

There is simply NO right or wrong here, no "RULES"!! It's simply each individual drummer's interpretation of what THEY see as the perfect setup and what to play on it.

How boring it would be if everyone did everything the same.

[jazzkidding]

I am a new drummer with a small beginner kit, one up two down. I have a lot of respect for drummers that only choose to use the essential on their set up. I think it shows class and the emphasis on feel more than technique. I think I might be old fashioned because I do not like the look of a double bass or the sound of a double beater gone crazy.
When I see a big kit I think the drummer is installing all the equipment that he/she has ever bought and it looks busy. I think of the Pink Floyd Hummagumma inside cover picture and all that equipment is mostly drum related, and they need to have a big panel truck.
I admire drummers that can instil the feel of the groove with little of anything. I love Pink Floyd though. Just my thoughts on this thread.

[Ferret]

What is the deal with humongus kits sometimes. I'm no hater of the MONSTER kit but, sometimes comeon guys are you guys trying to make up for something or what. Take Bill Stewart compared to Terry Bozzio. Yeah different styles but, come on. Someone I just want to hear your take on it.

By the way speak up I'm losing my hearing as we speak.

I play on an 11 pc monster kit with a ton of cymbals.

Why?


Because I play in 3 bands, all different genres, do session recordings for local guys, jam with about every musician I meet in my area, and I do live shows with a rapper. The kit I have in my studio, is what I need from all of those scenarios, rolled into one kit so I can practice with these people all in one place. When I go live, I use a smaller kit that only has what the project I use calls for. One band I am in uses all of it with the exception of my agogo bells.

[MadJazz]

Wow, some of you took my previous post way too seriously!! Lighten up.
Just a quick reaction: I don't like jazz and don't pretend I do. I don't even set-up all the gear I have because I never felt like it.

I like small kits because I feel more comfortable behind them and I sound better. No cramped set-ups, no hauling around, no money drain, no forts needed for grooving nor for the occasional solo, no excessive noise... Do I need more arguments? I think not.
I do agree that playing behind a large kit is refreshing from time to time. But it also gets boring quickly. For me it comes down to :

Less distraction + more focus = better result.

Also, the smaller the kit, the more time I can spend with the girls after the performance. Seriously :)
Oh, and women - or the audience in general - aren't impressed by a huge drum. Rather by a drummer who knows how to serve the song.

[frank0072]

I play both. When I practice I use a 4 piece with one crash and a splash, when I play with my band I use a 6 piece with 2 crashes, 2 china's and 2 splashes. It's all about what the music calls for. I find it very relaxing to play on a 4 piece and I love going crazy with fills and stuff on a bigger kit. So no big vs small for me, just play what's best for the situation.

[eddiehimself]

Wow, some of you took my previous post way too seriously!! Lighten up.
Just a quick reaction: I don't like jazz and don't pretend I do. I don't even set-up all the gear I have because I never felt like it.

I like small kits because I feel more comfortable behind them and I sound better. No cramped set-ups, no hauling around, no money drain, no forts needed for grooving nor for the occasional solo, no excessive noise... Do I need more arguments? I think not.
I do agree that playing behind a large kit is refreshing from time to time. But it also gets boring quickly. For me it comes down to :

Less distraction + more focus = better result.

Also, the smaller the kit, the more time I can spend with the girls after the performance. Seriously :)
Oh, and women - or the audience in general - aren't impressed by a huge drum. Rather by a drummer who knows how to serve the song.

No i don't have any problem with you wanting to play a smaller kit. You've made it perfectly clear why you like smaller kits. But it's just from the way you word your posts on the subject you give the impression that you think that somehow you're better at drumming than someone else just because you've got a smaller kit. It's not about the drums, it's about the man/woman sitting behind them.

[MadJazz]

No i don't have any problem with you wanting to play a smaller kit. You've made it perfectly clear why you like smaller kits. But it's just from the way you word your posts on the subject you give the impression that you think that somehow you're better at drumming than someone else just because you've got a smaller kit. It's not about the drums, it's about the man/woman sitting behind them.

If I was so serious I wouldn't have given the post such a silly title, would I. I'll pay attention to my phrasing. It's not about the drums, it's about the women in the audience! :)

[2bsticks]

The older I am getting the smaller I am thinking. With that being said I have my moments and set it all up. For me it's either a 4 piece kit or a six piece kit so not that big a deal. I do enjoy the 4 piece though. Maybe I will sell both my Yamaha kits and get a nice 4 piece kit and go from there hmmmm???

[Deathmetalconga]

No i don't have any problem with you wanting to play a smaller kit. You've made it perfectly clear why you like smaller kits. But it's just from the way you word your posts on the subject you give the impression that you think that somehow you're better at drumming than someone else just because you've got a smaller kit. It's not about the drums, it's about the man/woman sitting behind them.

I think people who play small kits are trying to compensate for something!