The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[magand]

Does anybody master the Buddy Rich trick that jo jo mayer is talking about in one of his videos in drummerworld? Its insane. would be fun to do, to show off your skillz.

[funked_up]

hey dude,
i just got it down. i watched thomas lang creative control dvd, and that explains it a bit better IMO. especially with the triplets. LRR LRR LRR that is muhc easier for me on the stick trick.

[aahznightsky]

its pretty much just moeller technique or something similar, when your wrist comes down the stick rebounds up and you use your fingers to control the stick for another hit as your wrist comes up

[Raymond Bloom]

Actually it is called Gladstone technique (open - close, push-pull, reverse srtoke etc)

Check out Gordy Knudtson @http://www.paiste.com/artists/ (http://www.paiste.com/artists/)
There is a small clip where he shows perfectly what it is all about...though, there are many options how to do that, for example, Jojo Mayer does that in French grip, but Gordy - in German...

[Bernhard]

Did you see, that everywhere on the paiste-website they refer to drummerworld?

Bernhard

[Raymond Bloom]

yeah! http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

That would be weird if they wouldn't! http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Colin]

I can do the Gladstone technique in both matched and traditional grip. It makes for incredibly fast double strokes!

[Freddie Freeloader]

when i saw that jojo clip where he demonstrates the technique.... i tried my best to do the same thing, but just couldn't. i eventually gave up.
hahahaha.

[michael h]

I have been working on it for about 9 months. I hit my peek in speed about 4 months into it. I don't have it as fast a JO JO, but fast enough for my needs. The first guy I saw do it live was Bill Stewart obviously not the first guy to do it. I then saw Ari Hoenig do it and asked him about it when I took some lessons from him last yr. He showed me that it was just like the drop catch technique of the double stroke roll and that you just straighten it out. He doesn't have it super fast either but he really utilizes it in his playing and very musical with it. It took a while to get used to and once I could do it slow I try doing things against it with other limbs like Ted Reeds Syncopation with jazz swing and Samba feels. Also did some rock grooves out of Carmine Appices book too playing 16ths on the hi hat or ride. After a few months of that I just started to use it in my own ideas. The books were a good start though.

I have a hard time doing it with my right hand traditional(I'm a lefty) grip. I need to spend time on that. I may get a gig on a cruise ship soon for a while so if that happens I will have plenty of time to practice it..lol! It's funny because I can do it a bit better with my right hand matched( my week hand) than I can with my left. I got obsesive about 12 yrs ago with the whole finger technique thing and would practice my right hand in the car everywhere I would drive. (That was all that gladstone type technique though. You know down! down! down! Like dribbling a basket ball.) A couple of yrs later my fingers were better in my right hand but my left wrist is still stronger. I wish I knew about the Buddy Rich technique trick then, I think I would have it better and faster because I was younger and more focused on just hand technique.

[CartersChops]

haha dude i wanna learn that soo bad...that video was so helpful,,, i couldnt really tell how jojo was doing it, but that video was very clear

[Bashkin]

what video?

[RTDRUMS]

Why when I look at this section I dont see Buddy Rich? Well Im sure Im not the only BR fan here.

I met Buddy when I was Seven. He played at a festival In my home town. This was two years before he died. The guy is the tops as far as Im concerned, Just watch any video clip and you'll see what I mean.

Im sure there are some people here that know what Im talking about. But for all of you kids who like Peart, Portnoy, or any bad ass drummer around today. Its likely Buddy Rich had some kind of influence on them.

So do yourself a favor and check out Buddy Rich right here at drummerworld or look at the offical BR web site.www.buddyrich.com

enjoy

[Rudy McRudster]

He certainly is an influence to every drummer around today. It would be foolish to say that everyone, at least once, tried to do the hi-hat trick that he does in the Lost Westside Story Tapes.

[Superlow]

Buddy is to drums what Babe Ruth is to baseball. A legend larger than life. Certainly there have been limits pushed by many drummers who are considered more technically proficient. However no one pulled off such amazing feats with the showmanship that Buddy did. He had character and wit beyond what most drummer have these day's.

[Rudy McRudster]

That's really true. I'll always remember one day when I was talking to a friend and he said, "Aww man, but look at Joey Jordison's solo. He spun around, that's really original and hard to do". And I just simply said, "Yeah, well Buddy Rich was flipped around and upside-down numerous times and his solo didn't change at all."

[slingerlandradioking55]

Buddy Rich is the best drummer that ever lived. I love everything he did, especially the albums he did with other drummers like Max Roach and Gene Krupa. His stuff was very original and had a lot of impact. I don't think there will ever be another drummer like Buddy Rich, he was one of a kind.

[RTDRUMS]

Buddy Rich is the best drummer that ever lived. I love everything he did, especially the albums he did with other drummers like Max Roach and Gene Krupa. His stuff was very original and had a lot of impact. I don't think there will ever be another drummer like Buddy Rich, he was one of a kind.

I couldnt agree more. Thanks to BR

[RTDRUMS]

a little picture!


Keep in mind, he was drumming with equipment( bassdrum & HHpedal, hardware, mics or the lack there of and a huundred other things) that doesnt even compare with stuff we have to day. Imagine BR playing on Bozzio or Pearts kit or even a V-Drumset.

check out my shield and pinstrips tattoo thread in my place.

[Henry II]

Buddy Rich was a force of nature, arguably the greatest drummer who ever lived. Further, IMHO, he was arguably the greatest musician who ever lived. Without a doubt, there is no other drummer who had, or has, the musical vocabulary that Buddy Rich had. Moreover, I've never heard BR play wrong note. Everything he played was perfect for the context he was in. As for chops, BR in the 60's was untouchable. JMHO.

[Dr. Neaux]

Buddy was an all-around great entertainer. If you read about him, or have read about him, you'll find out that he was once thought to be the highest paid child entertainer in the world. The man performed his first drum solo at the age of 18 months old for cryin out loud! Watch a video of Buddy and then watch any other drummer and there's no comparison. He may have well been the arrogant, mean cuss that people who knew him or played with him said he was, but the guy was the best ever! I don't think we'll ever see anyone that good ever again. As Phil Collins said: "He(Buddy) was a one-off."

[finnhiggins]

Without a doubt, there is no other drummer who had, or has, the musical vocabulary that Buddy Rich had.

I'm not buying that.

He's an astounding player and his chops are phenomenal. But musical vocabulary? He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta in that respect, to name but one. He never had much in the way of rock chops, indeed he expressed great loathing for the style on many occasions. I've never seen footage of him playing any convincing latin material either. And likewise I don't recall seeing any of Elvin or Tony's innovations making their way into his jazz time playing.

He was an enormous big band drummer, there's few who could touch him on that ground. And his soloing chops were jaw dropping too. But if you're going to put him forward as the kind of stylistic versility and musical vocabulary then we're going to have to disagree. His range was really rather limited compared to many drummers today, he just had astounding control inside that range.

[Clark]

Let's rephrase it, I guess. I feel that this metric modulation and other concepts of this ilk don't swing. It sounds like math equations worked out. Buddy not only swung but
none of the "big" name drummers of today come close to his(Buddy's) chops.

P.S. Earlier I hadn't seen this thread and posted a new one that vanished.

[largo61]

I am amazed at how few people replied to this. I am even more amazed that it took so long for someone to make a thread on Buddy Rich. I am only 15. I was never alive at the same time as him. I feel that I would have more friends in the drummer world if I was born a few decades ago. Buddy Rich is by far the best drummer ever. And now a-days all I hear about is how Travis Barker or Joey Jordison are the greatest drummers ever. At least from people my age. I have grown to hate most Blink 182 and Slipknot fans because they are soo close minded. They refuse to listen to Buddy Rich. And not because he plays jazz or because he doesn't play death metal. It is because he died. They don't think a dead drummer could be good. Buddy Rich is faster with better technique then any drummer I have ever heard. His arogence and the willingness to back it up. He not only a great drummer. He is an icon. There should be a bronze statue of him somewhere. No drummer has influenced more modern drummers and non-drummers than anyone.

Buddy Rich is drumming with the gods.

[toteman2]

Buddy is than man, no doubt...It's true alot of younger drummers don't care to hear him...To me he os one of the great pioneers of the instrument...I do think he really was a jerk though...Not showing others how to do the famous 1 handed roll? Seems a bit arrogant...I also think claiming he is the greatest drummer ever hands down is beyond arrogant...Like eveything else, drumming has evolved and gotten better with time and knowledge...

[Barry]

Not showing others how to do the famous 1 handed roll? Seems a bit arrogant...I also think claiming he is the greatest drummer ever hands down is beyond arrogantThose are some of the least bad things about him. I like his playing though.

[darkcherryfade]

I'm with finnighins on the musical vocabulary point. But I do think Buddy probably played greater within the range of what he did than practically all other drummers within the range of what they do. In that I'd say he's as close as it comes to holding the title of "best drummer", although I believe noone ever will. I do wonder how Buddy would have played if he'd have been born in, let's say the 60's or 70's and grown up hearing all the popular styles and all the big name drummers of the time through today. Would he be another Vinnie, Dennis, Steve Smith, etc.? Would he be better? Worse? Heh, wunderring stuhf iz kewl.

[Dill X]

Buddy Rich was an unbelievable drummer. Without a doubt one of the greatest drummers to ever live, and he had an influence over almost the entire drumming community. I don't that one person has not tried to copy one of his moves or tricks.

I try to copy his arm crossover move which he does about five times as fast as me. I wish I could play like Buddy Rich because he could solo so well. It seemed like he had endless ideas of what to play during his drum solos. It's just amazing.

[PearlDrummer014]

the buddy rich live video were he plays both sides of his hi hats is what i think one of the best vidieos on the entire site

[laurence_drummer]

tell me what you think!!

thanks!

[Bernhard]

Hmm - not sure. I think he was a singer with a Big-Band, forgot the name. And his daughter can sing also.

Bernhard

[Lambo]

Hmm - not sure. I think he was a singer with a Big-Band, forgot the name. And his daughter can sing also.

Bernhard This is true. I remember seeing footage of a video where he was dangled upside down by a rope and swung over a TV audience while in the peak of a barritone vocal solo....

[Bernhard]

Ahh - now I remember - appeared also in the Jerry Lewis Show and Muppet Show..

Must be a comedian so..

Bernhard

[Jaymasta]

he always came down to montreal to play at the Jazz festival. I watched one of his tapes from the montreal jazz fest and it was amazing! I can tell he liked to come down to montreal

[JW89]

Buddy Rich makes me wanna throw the sticks down and stop playing, the stuff he puts together is amazing, lol

[Lambo]

I have heard stories of him berating guests on Johnny Carson's show... where would you get this footage???

[Thinshells]

I have heard stories of him berating guests on Johnny Carson's show... where would you get this footage???

Well, here is a clip of him in a drum battle vs Ed Shaughnessy on the Tonight show...

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Ed_Shaughnessy.html

[Lambo]

I have to say, I think Ed was my favourite in that battle... Buddy repeats himself a bit too much. Just MHO.

[Thinshells]

I have to say, I think Ed was my favourite in that battle... Buddy repeats himself a bit too much. Just MHO.

I think I liked some things about Ed better,,,

Ed played a bigger kit with two kicks. Nothing wrong with Buddy's kit (except the inexplicable dual 16" floor toms, only one of which he ever used. The other was a towel rack.) But Ed showed more melodic possibilities, and tom work, not just snare-centric stuff.

He reads music and composes, and seemed to be a more versatile and sophisticated musician. I always wondered why his tom sizes were out of order. He explained it like he was playing a piano.

I like the sound of Ed's kit better. Buddy's sounded flat.

Ed seems like a more likeable guy.

[Lambo]

Yes, I'd like to shake his hand...seems like an amicable bloke. He's 76 now...I wonder how he's doing healthwise. Well I hope...

[Lambo]

He reads music and composes, and seemed to be a more versatile and sophisticated musician. Yes, as Sabian Cymbals put it, "The world's most versatile drummer".

[bigbang]

again i don't normally hollarback but absurd statements bother me .to say buddy rich did not have rock chops is the most rediculous thing i've heard yet,being as rock was in it's formative years in the fifties all things drums were borrowed from jazz.Buddy thought that rock was a lesser form of music (much like country music is today)and had no intrest in lowering himself to play it.but i'm sure if he did he would have taken great amusement in destroying john bonham in a drum battle.the thing is if buddy respected you as a player such as ed shaunessy he took it easy on you .If he did not he had no problem shameing you off the stage.arrogance YES.As far as bebop is concerned he did'nt care for the way that the bass drum was used to accentuate the time...but to think he could'nt do it is ludicris and ignorant.And to miss a cymbal here and there let he amoung us without sin cast the first stone!

[theduke86]

again i don't normally hollarback but absurd statements bother me .to say buddy rich did not have rock chops is the most rediculous thing i've heard yet,being as rock was in it's formative years in the fifties all things drums were borrowed from jazz.Buddy thought that rock was a lesser form of music (much like country music is today)and had no intrest in lowering himself to play it.but i'm sure if he did he would have taken great amusement in destroying john bonham in a drum battle.the thing is if buddy respected you as a player such as ed shaunessy he took it easy on you .If he did not he had no problem shameing you off the stage.arrogance YES.As far as bebop is concerned he did'nt care for the way that the bass drum was used to accentuate the time...but to think he could'nt do it is ludicris and ignorant.And to miss a cymbal here and there let he amoung us without sin cast the first stone!

Bold words, my friend. Bold words.
Buddy's attempts at playing rock music weren't really happening. God bless his soul, he's the greatest drummer who's ever lived, but he was centric on jazz. He never played amazing latin stuff, certainly his rock wasn't the most traditional grooving approach ever- because as you said, he felt that was an inferior form of music. However, you need to learn it in order to play it properly. In that respect, John Bohnam was a better player than Buddy. It's even cooler since JB respected many forms of music. Buddy respected only a few. As for country being considered inferior, I don't know if I should even lower myself with a reply but I will. The dudes playing in Nashville are some of the heaviest mothers on the planet. I don't like the style much, but country music is happening most of the time. Outside of NYC, you won't find a scene with better musicians.

[bigbang]

not saying that the session musicians are inferior(we all have to work)however it is written with the lowest common denominator in mind ..the average joe six-pack who would not understand anything more than four beats to the bar.As for buddy a man with that much raw talent could do anything he put his mind to , unfortunatly his ego was in the way most of the time.And i'm not sure but i think ther still might be a "scene" in a small town called los angeles........

[finnhiggins]

not saying that the session musicians are inferior(we all have to work)however it is written with the lowest common denominator in mind ..the average joe six-pack who would not understand anything more than four beats to the bar.As for buddy a man with that much raw talent could do anything he put his mind to , unfortunatly his ego was in the way most of the time.And i'm not sure but i think ther still might be a "scene" in a small town called los angeles........

I think the argument here was that Buddy indeed didn't put his mind to it, regardless of talent. His attempts at playing rock music were less than stellar, most likely because he afforded the style so little respect. That's hardly an excuse. It's sort of like a drunk driver saying that they shouldn't be judged as a drunk driver because they could have chosen to stay sober.

If you make a choice it's entirely fair for people to judge you by it. Buddy chose not to play rock or latin music well, and he never employed much in the way of the phrasing innovations from bebop or later jazz styles, so it's quite fair to say he wasn't particularly endowed as a stylistic chameleon. He was, nonetheless, a bloody great big band drummer. I think you're just letting your love of his playing get in the way of reality a little.

By your reasoning we should be praising Einstein as a pioneer in computer science. Sure, he never had much to do with it... but hell, he was a smart guy - he'd have been great if he'd tried!

[bigbang]

you just said what i've been saying,His arrogence and ego got in his way.buddy rarely practiced (if at all) but if he had let it go (his arrogence)he would have made a fine rock drummer.It's not rocket science it's drums.And the analogy with the drunk driving is moot and makes no sense.It's not fair to judge anyone because they refuse to do something it's their choice ..leave it be.

[Thinshells]

I hope the young folks will read this and understand something important.

Buddy Rich was 100% ambidexeterous in hands and feet.
His speed was equal or better to anyone today
He could play lightning fast heel toe, with both feet.
He had a metronome-like accuracy
He had an ear for the music he played.

IOW: there is no musical style that he could not play physically. He could summon the speed and power to play rock or grace and subtlety for jazz.

No, he did not conquer rock or latin music. But he had the skills to do so. But he hated country music and rock drummers with a passion. He was narrow minded musically, but that aside, there is no drummer today that can do something Buddy could not. His barriers were strictly attitudinal.

[Lambo]

buddy rarely practiced (if at all) The reason he didn't practise was because he was playing on average 5 nights a week for most of his life. He didn't need to practise. Performing WAS his practise...

[Raymond Bloom]

it's a bit wrong... he DID practice!! I read it from an interview with Joe Morello

can't find that link now :/

[DogBreath]

If you make a choice it's entirely fair for people to judge you by it.
That makes perfect sense to me. It also reminds me of a few years ago when Garth Brooks, who at the time was at the top of the Country Music charts, declared that Rock Music was easy, and he recorded and released a rock album to prove how he could be a rock star as well. It sucked, the critics hated it, and no one bought it. He did his absolute best, and he was horrible. (Amazon lists 214 of the CDs new and used starting at 65 cents)

Just because you are the best at something (as many would say Buddy was), doesn't mean that you can be the best at anything else. Buddy did not have the ability to be a great rock drummer, or a great Latin drummer. That doesn't take away from what he was, but there's no need to pretend that he was more than he actually was.

Say he was a pioneer. That's a fact. Say he was the greatest drummer ever. Fine, that's an opinion. But it's just silly to say things like "His speed was equal or better than anyone today" or "He never made a mistake while drumming." No need to make him into more than he was. Any one of us should be so talented!

[bigbang]

all i'm saying is that if he had applied himself to it he could have done it.This is something i see alot of usually from other musician's not drummers , the fact that you play a certain style ( such as country ) means you can't play rock or jazz or what have you.You guy's as drummer's above all know this not to be true. I played a job last night with a rock band and run into some girls there who saw me the week before with a country band, they were totally amazed that i was playing rock.It's all just drums and we should all be practicing different styles.

[Clark]

Of course it's all opinions. These comparisons of Buddy to Vinnie,Donati,Lang, etc....
I feel Buddy was far better in his fluidity, speed, and swinging attack. Buddy
didn't play the non-swinging, "worked-out" math equations for each limb.

[DTHdrummer]

Anyone have info or a video that explains on to do the Buddy Rich stick trick. Not his "secret weapon" technique. But the trick where he stops playing the drums and actually does a groove by hitting the sticks together. Can anyone help?

[jangus]

I would love to show off with that.

[tallassfreak89]

you hit your sticks together haha

[Jaymasta]

Man I want to know how to do that trick to, But I know how to Spin with my fingers! but if I ever learn that Buddy Rich thing I would want to show off with that to :D

[DogBreath]

Here's a video where he throws in a little Stick Trick at the very end. Also in the video, he actually hits the second floor tom!

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/buddyrichsticktrick.html

[Jaymasta]

ok so he did the stick trick for like a second I still don't know how to do it.and most people don't know how to do it but WOW! he is the GREATEST drummer EVER!

[Donovan]

I just learned how to do this yesterday, and now I've got it pretty down packed but of course not as fast as buddy. What you do (of course start in traditional grip) is play RRL RRL RRL on the sticks, and that's basicaly it, it won't sound right at first, it just takes some time.

Donovan

[liquidrhythm]

If you can get a copy of Marco Minnemann's DVD "EXTREME DRUMMING", he shows his version of that trick. It's either right on or "Extremely" close. ;-)

[JohnMunsey]

This would make a great and popular instructional! Good trick!

[Raymond Bloom]

If you can get a copy of Marco Minnemann's DVD "EXTREME DRUMMING", he shows his version of that trick. It's either right on or "Extremely" close. ;-)
Yeah, get that DVD, it's a pretty simple trick

[swingstar73]

i just tried to do the stick trick after looking at this post and the video....i can do it about 99% consistant at the speed buddy rich does it..........i followed the RRL RRL RRL RRL guideline for the sticking..... but then i found that i wasn't very consistant in always hitting when i would do the left hand stroke

so, i experimented with my grip a little bit and i found that if i hold the left stick really tight and make extremly quick strokes with it, i can do the trick up to the speed buddy rich does it

hope that helps

[Henry II]

I'm not buying that.

He's an astounding player and his chops are phenomenal. But musical vocabulary? He's not a patch on Vinnie Colaiuta in that respect, to name but one. He never had much in the way of rock chops, indeed he expressed great loathing for the style on many occasions. I've never seen footage of him playing any convincing latin material either. And likewise I don't recall seeing any of Elvin or Tony's innovations making their way into his jazz time playing.

He was an enormous big band drummer, there's few who could touch him on that ground. And his soloing chops were jaw dropping too. But if you're going to put him forward as the kind of stylistic versility and musical vocabulary then we're going to have to disagree. His range was really rather limited compared to many drummers today, he just had astounding control inside that range.

Vinnie Colaiuta isn't in Buddy Rich's league when it comes to musical phrasing. Buddy could play a tidal wave of endless phrases at 100mph without repeating himself. No one can or could do that like Buddy Rich. Perhaps Duffy Jackson comes close. Buddy Rich is not only the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit. He may be the greatest musician who ever lived, of any instrument, any genre. When you think of the greatest musicians who ever lived, who do you think of? Arthur Rubinstein, Vladamir Horowitz, Jascha Heifetz, Yehudi Menuhin, Andres Segovia, Harry James, Benny Goodman, Charlie Parker, Joe Pass, Ray Brown, Glenn Miller. None of them were better at their art than Buddy was at his. Buddy Rich was as great a genius as any of them. Maybe greater.

Vinnie has never, and will never, have a musical thought that Buddy hasn't played 1,000 times. JMHO.

PS: And Buddy could sing and dance.

[Stu_Strib]

Yes, as Sabian Cymbals put it, "The world's most versatile drummer".

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers.

[Thinshells]

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers.

Hmm.. you seem to have forgotten someone...

Gene Krupa was the original superstar drummer. He was the one that had bigger (floor) toms created and pioneered that "Sing Sing Sing" sound. Rich idolized Krupa, even though he did surpass Krupas talent.

Krupa and Rich both inspired Bonzo, and a legion of other drummers.

[Wirt]

I won't argue or dispute Buddy's ability in other genres of music; as has been said, his ego and narrow-minded taste in music got in the way of his ever developing good rock or Latin rhythms, and it's pointless to debate whether or not he could have if he had tried to.

However, I thought I'd post on here addressing another issue that was brought up earlier: Buddy's having been one of the first "fast" drummers (that is, someone whose speed is marvelled as much as their actual skill; as opposed to the "musical" drummer). I'd agree with that statement, that Buddy did overdo it--I once read in an interview him saying that he played so fast because he "wanted to get the hell off the stage"--and though it never bothered me, I can surely see it bothering some people. However, I saw a CD at Border's today that I absolutely had to buy--Buddy playing with trumpeter Sweets Edison in a jazz quintet in 1955. Finally, I can hear Buddy's playing outside of the big band genre--and, though this is still swing and certainly not rock or Latin or country or anything like that, Buddy's skill certainly wasn't all in his "fast chops." The CD opens with "Yellow Rose of Brooklyn," four-and-a-half minutes of drums, and the solo, I think, at times rivals in "musicality" some of Joe Morello's solos--to name one well-known to Drummerworld, his rendition of "Take Five." Not all flashes and explosions: some great soft stuff, great melody. The rest of the album features just some excellent swing/jazz grooves, the more subtle kind that you don't normally hear from Buddy because all you can find in stores or online anymore are his big band numbers (which makes sense, as that was his forté, or at least his most common style, especially from the 60s onward--the "Swingin' New Big Band" years where most of his well-known recordings of today come from).

Just thought I'd throw that out. I've always been a huge Buddy Rich fan, and am glad to say that I can finally hear a good deal of his softer, more jazzy side (well, you know what I mean, anyway).

[Lambo]

Marketing. Buddy Rich is the original 'celebrity' drummer. He was the master of fast single strokes, cross-overs, upside flipping drum kits, and an amazingly good big band drummer.

Versatile is not a term I'd associate with Buddy Rich, other that the fact he was very versitile in creating new ways to single stroke and amaze crowds with his showmanship.

Don't take this as a criticism of Buddy Rich. Its more a statement about people who think he was something he wasn't (a rock drummer, a versatile drummer, etc.)

He was the original ostentatious flashy drummer, and his playing has been borrowed from and copied for years now. His showmanship and his thousands of gigs has made him one of the most recongized names to non-drummers. I was talking about Ed.

[Lambo]

Vinnie Colaiuta isn't in Buddy Rich's league when it comes to musical phrasing. Buddy could play a tidal wave of endless phrases at 100mph without repeating himself. No one can or could do that like Buddy Rich. Perhaps Duffy Jackson comes close. Buddy Rich is not only the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit. He may be the greatest musician who ever lived, of any instrument, any genre. When you think of the greatest musicians who ever lived, who do you think of? Arthur Rubinstein, Vladamir Horowitz, Jascha Heifetz, Yehudi Menuhin, Andres Segovia, Harry James, Benny Goodman, Charlie Parker, Joe Pass, Ray Brown, Glenn Miller. None of them were better at their art than Buddy was at his. Buddy Rich was as great a genius as any of them. Maybe greater.

Vinnie has never, and will never, have a musical thought that Buddy hasn't played 1,000 times. JMHO.

PS: And Buddy could sing and dance. I'm definitely not buying that.

[Stu_Strib]

Hmm.. you seem to have forgotten someone...

Gene Krupa was the original superstar drummer. He was the one that had bigger (floor) toms created and pioneered that "Sing Sing Sing" sound. Rich idolized Krupa, even though he did surpass Krupas talent.

Krupa and Rich both inspired Bonzo, and a legion of other drummers.

Non-drummers will say Buddy Rich before they say Gene Krupa if you ask them who is the best drummer of all time.

I'm just saying Buddy Rich was a lot of flash and show and a not one lick of restraint. For all those who rip Weckl for overplaying, they should check out old Buddy Rich recordings and videos.

[jamndrummer]

http://www.buddyrich.com

People who would like to know more about Buddy Rich might consider checking out the website that his daughter is the webmaster of. Very informative on Buddy's musical career as well as his life.

To me, when I watch Buddy (Westside Story DVD) I listen to how well he plays around all the melodies. His style is none but unique to his own. I would consider him to have left a great legacy for many drummers to follow throughout history.

Just like I have a favorite drummer and try to sound and mimic him. To me he is one of the best, but that is my choice of his colorful art. We all have our colorful art choices. Thats what is cool about our differences. It makes life interesting.

[eastcoastdrummer90210]

I've been working on it for the longest time...my left hand (weak) is finally to the point where I can play get about 650 strokes in a minute...sadly my strong hand hasn't been able to get that "snap" I've gotten with my left hand.
From what I can remember, I started it out as almost a single handed buzz role (not sounding like it though, just to get the feel.) and eventually got to the point where I could make larger movements with my fingers....
....that's the other thing...I don't lift my hand back like in the Gladstone video, but I'm using my fingers like jo-jo...


If anyone's got anything else I've missed, I'm still workin' on my right hand...idk what I'm doing different from my left! ....I'll try to post a video soon.

Keep on drumming!!!

[bjeanes]

Buddy Rich makes me wanna throw the sticks down and stop playing, the stuff he puts together is amazing, lol
Many (well-known) players, as well as novices have said that exact same thing... The experienced people have continued to ply their craft, perhaps because it was basically said in "half-jest"... but for all his "hard cynical veneer", to a beginner or student, to literally want to "throw the sticks down & stop playing", or even "wanna", would've been about the last thing Buddy Rich would want to hear. If there's one thing he stood for musically, it was to "inspire you", not "copy him"---or anyone else.

[finnhiggins]

Non-drummers will say Buddy Rich before they say Gene Krupa if you ask them who is the best drummer of all time.


Depends what generation they're of. My grandmother thinks Krupa is the man and never took to Buddy, and she's of the generation where those guys were actually stars rather than figureheads for musicians.

[bjeanes]

That rather smacks to me like a typical "smartass Buddy remark"... There's only two ways he'd ever "get the hell off a stage"... well, [I]three: 1) If the band was too atrocious... 2) If his tour was hopelessly behind schedule... 3) If he was on the way to his funeral. I won't insist on #3.

[fourstringdrums]

Found this elsewhere. Too bad it already has a website stamp, I don't think Bernhard would be able to host it that way.

http://mediax.muchosucko.com/movies/buddy_rich_1978-05-09-05.mp4

[MECHT4NK]

this link didn't work. I guess people should try this one

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-buddyrichdrumsolo1978.html

[fourstringdrums]

this link didn't work. I guess people should try this one

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-buddyrichdrumsolo1978.html

Thanks. I didn't want to post that link because of the advertising, but if Bernhard's ok with it. The other like works too. It's just a large video and when you click on it it takes a while to load. Saving it works fine.

[MECHT4NK]

I believe the other link works only when you have opened the movie once before. the first time I tried it it took me directly to their homepage but now after I've seen it the first link does work.

btw I believe this movie is taken at the north sea jazz festival which is a yearly event in the hague (the city where I'm from).

[Plook]

Cool link. Thanks for posting

[eastcoastdrummer90210]

The basic concept of the stick clicking trick is that:
The stick being hit must stay stationary until it's driven back by the force of the stick hitting it. Afterwards, the stick that just hit must stop were it made contact with the other. It's a bit like, if you were on a drum or a pad, after throwing the stick down, instead of letting it bounce back up into your hand, you leave it down close to the head. THE RESULT: anything you can play on a drum can be played with your sticks. Once you have the motion down, try adding it a few rudiments. Who knows, maybe you'll come up with a cooler stick trick than the video?!

The motion of the sticks sorta like the swinging pedulum toy that appears on the cover of Dream Theater's new album, "Octavarium".


Hope it helps, keep on drumming!

[drumbastard]

watch creativ control (thomas lang) he explains it very good..

[www.teamamf.com]

VERY EASY TRICK! lol, you have to practice doing beats on a weird angle...Hit one stick back and forth...pm me for number and I can do it over the phone I guess...lol

[drummer_wid_pulse]

GO TO http://www.vicfirth.com/artists/queen.html
then go to the bottom of that page and look for walking the dog/stick on stick

[kernond]

I believe I may be able to help you understand the mechanics of that technique so, here goes...

First, the most important aspect of this technique is the upstroke. Without a strong and fast upstroke you can forget it. You can sort of do it using only your fingers but, you will only be able to play it at a low volume and, you won't have the ability to move the stick to other parts of your kit because you simply won't have the lift that's created by a strong upstroke.

Secondly, timing is extremely important! Every component of the technique has to fall at a very specific point in time. To master this technique you will have to practice slowly at first. You can't just flail the stick around and expect it to eventually just happen.

Let's look at the components and where they have to fall on a rhythmic timeline. Think of the timeline as a one-beat measure of sixteenth-notes counted as "1 e and a".

Note: these instructions are for the matched grip.

Component A is the downstroke (occurs at "1"):
Starting from a STICK UP position, let the stick FALL to the drumhead naturally. Do not push the stick downward. If you do, you will have a very hard time achieving an even sound between the notes. There is no real effort required to do this...let it fall. (You may want to practice this component without sticks by holding your hand in the STICK UP position while maintaining light pressure at the fulcrum. If you are relaxed, you'll notice that the fingers are naturally close to your palms. Now relax the muscles that are holding your wrist up and let the hand fall naturally. Remember to maintain the fulcrum and don't drop your entire forearm. Only your hand should drop, turning at the wrist. I cannot emphasize enough that there is no real effort in this movement. Also note that, IF YOU ARE RELAXED, the wrist will naturally rise a little.)

Component B is the finger-stroke (occurs at "and"):
Okay, the first note has been played and the stick is rebounding. Play the second note using your FINGERS ONLY. There should be no other movements or efforts made. The wrist is at rest and your forearm muscles are relaxed, waiting to explode during the next Component. This relaxed state is extremely important because any tension will stifle the next (and most important) Component. I'm sure by now you realize that we've simply performed a basic Double Stroke. That's all this technique is...a series of Double Strokes. The catch is that you have to remove the time gap between the Doubles. Otherwise, your just playing a shuffle pattern. There is only one thing that can remove this time gap...Upstroke to the Rescue!

Component C is the all-important Upstroke (occurs at "a"):
This is the key to performing this technique and this is where all of the actual work is done. This is where you will make your strongest muscle contraction using the muscles located further up the forearm. The wrist is a hinge. There are muscles around your wrist but, they are used to control the trajectory that the turning wrist will follow. The real workhorse muscles are located up the forearm near the elbow. Think of the hinges on a door. You wouldn't go to open a door by pulling on the hinges would you? Of course not, you would apply force to the opposite end (the door knob) because there is better leverage meaning, less work to achieve the same or greater results. This is important to understand because, when you perform your upstroke, if you focus on pulling up from the wrist area, you will cause tension and that's a good way to go nowhere fast. Having said that, when you perform the upstroke, do it with a strong SNAPPING movement that returns the stick to the UP position. It must be quick and with good form. If you are relaxed and using the correct muscles, the wrist will naturally drop a little.

NOW, those are the components of this technique. Let's zoom out a little to get a bigger picture of what's going on. Looking at where each component falls on our rhythmic timeline, we see that the count is:

"1 - and a"

Extending this to a 4-beat measure we get:

"1 - and a 2 - and a 3 - and a 4 - and a"

That is the timing needed when PRACTICING this technique. Obviously, when playing at faster tempos you don't want to be so mechanical about things. However, at this stage you will have to be this mechanical until it becomes embedded in your mind what happens and when it should happen, rhythmically speaking.


A good exercise to help with the timing of the upstroke is:
Play the technique as described in one hand. In the other hand, play the last sixteenth-note of each beat. There will be hand-to-hand action between the two hands at that last note of each beat because the upstroke in the one hand should happen at the same time as the downstroke in the other hand. This will help you focus on the proper timing of the upstroke. However, as you get faster with this technique, you will probably abandon this exercise because its purpose will have been exhausted. Use this to simply help you with the timing.


Anyway, I hope this helps someone. It's solid information and it is precisely how I learned the technique. Good Luck!

[ClockworkOrange]

Watch Buddy's tapes carefully. His 'trick' was that his method for sticking actually came from an 'eggbeater' type movement of both wrists....this is what enabled him to get such blinding speed.

If you allow the stick to rebound off the head with the finger technique AND incorporate a circular or 'rolling' motion to the tip, controlled from the wrist, so that the stick is actually moving off the head in a circular motion as opposed to an up and down one, your speed increases dramatically.

In some cases when he's really going 'all out' it almost appears as though he's slashing into the head with a sabre type motion, this is in fact a motion that comes from the accented strokes within the eggbeater whisking movement.

Try it.

[aahznightsky]

I stumbled across this technique myself a couple of years back and it was just natural for me. I now have it up to great speeds, faster than controlling rebound strictly from fingers which is where most people have their fastest speed. The most important thing is to get it smooth, relaxed, and keep an opened grip (that space between index and thumb is important). Also, I play matched so I can't help with the traditional equivalent of the technique.
But I do have my single stroke roll down with this technique quite well, when I last checked I could do over 1000 strokes in a minute (i timed a minute at 100 bpm of quintuplets times 2 with the other hand filling between the spaces, i don't know what that division would be called). WFD drummer material in a year's practice haha. yeah right!

I'm gonna be working on it more of course because I'm still nowhere near JoJo or Buddy Rich with the technique.

[joebubba]

I almost don't know which thread to post this to (because we have several on this subject), but I've just discovered a DVD with SEVERAL real good looks at the master himself doing this with his left hand (traditional grip) on the hi-hat.

You will see it on the Hudson Music release Live at the 1982 Montreal Jazz Festival. There are a couple other spots where you can see him do it on the snare, but if you watch song 5, West Side Story Medley, the first drum solo break (which is really a cymbal solo), you can see it clearly from 2 angles.

I'm not currently a traditional grip player so I haven't even dared try it, but I bet if some long time trad. grip players saw this video it would make real good sense and may even clear the mystery up.

FWIW, this DVD is exceptional. The band is top notch and tight, and even once almost seem to be caught off-guard (in amazement) coming back in after after one of Buddy's unbelievable solo breaks. (in fact it is later in the same tune referenced above). I haven't been able to stop watching this DVD since I got it 2 weeks ago.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Cheers again to Bernhard, Jason, DogBreath and everyone that contributes for making this forum such a great resource!

--Joe

[fourstringdrums]

Dave Weckl demonstrates this technique as well.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Dave_Weckl_single.html

[aahznightsky]

Dave Weckl demonstrates this technique as well.

http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Dave_Weckl_single.html


I think Weckl does it well but for me, he adds that twist with his right wrist that I see as a waste of motion. The one other thing is how on the second note he relies on the bounce a little bit more, making a slight differenece in volume. I still think he does it great, but just those are things I would suggest looking out for. Minimalizing effort and motion to only the necessary.

[Mykill]

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[DogBreath]

ALWAYS, even to this day, amazes me. That is who came up with the "spinning" drum set that most think tommy lee came up with. No Spliknot did not come up with it either. It was Buddy Rich. Do some research if you don't believe me.
Already been discussed. Use the search function if you don't believe me.

[Elvin4ever]

I remember Buddy saying that he hated rock drummers in general "They are animals" and he challanged Ginger Baker of Creem to a drum battle anywhere, any time.
My uncle played with Rich on four different tours in the late sixties, so I got to see him a lot when I was young. Uncle Billy was fired seven different times by Rich, and rehired seven times. On two of those ocassions he was fired and rehired on the same night. There was never any true reason for it. He could get mad about anything. My uncle says that on some of those firings, had he moved over six inches to the left, the guy directly behind him would have been fired instead.

Initially Rich was tough on the rock guys, but eventually softened his stance, and voiced public respect for Bobby Columby of Blood Sweat and Tears and Danny Seraphine of Chicago. He also developed an amused tolerance for Bonham. When (as a fearful 12 year old) I asked him if he thought Bonham was any good. He didn't say a word. All he did was shoot me a terrible look followed by 10 seconds of a dead on Moby Dick, without Bonham's edginess, but with immaculate technique. That moment has stuck with me my entire life.

The Ginger Baker story has morphed into several unique versions over the years, when it was actually his reaction to hearing that Baker had challenged ELVIN JONES. This resulted in one of the best Rich quotes ever.

"That guy challenging Elvin Jones is like a paraplegic challenging Arnold Palmer to a round of golf."

Much of the current opinion of Rich rests entirely in these stories instead of the insurmountable technical and yes, INNOVATIVE talent he demonstrated night after night for over 60 years. When I hear people praise Rich with qualifiers (Yeah he was good at this, but Jordison, Colaiuta etc beats him at this other thing) I am amazed. I thought his untouchable legacy would always remain intact. But time has a way of changing things, and I guess Rich is no exception.

[Mykill]

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[LiquidSoul546]

it's a bit wrong... he DID practice!! I read it from an interview with Joe Morello

can't find that link now :/
I heard that BR never practiced with his band even, in fact he would hire a drummer to practice with the band while he walked around and listened to the band, then he performed the show. But I may be wrong.
peace

[DogBreath]

I am sorry for not memorizing EVERY POST on this board before daring to say anything.

Friend, I don't expect anyone to memorize every post. I just thought it was funny that you were telling people to "do some research," and yet you hadn't used the search function here before starting a new thread on a subject that already had a thread that spans multiple pages.

Also, No Smilies. If you don't believe me you can do a search for the rule.

[Mykill]

20 twenty characters 20

[Elvin4ever]

I heard that BR never practiced with his band even, in fact he would hire a drummer to practice with the band while he walked around and listened to the band, then he performed the show. But I may be wrong.
peace
This is true. The rehearsal drummer doubled as Rich's drum set up guy. So he always travelled with the band, even if Rich had no rehearsals scheduled. A lot of great up and coming drummers killed for that gig. One of the best was a guy named Dave Alpert, who teaches high school band down somewhere in the southern U.S. and plays just great.

[k3ng]

I can do the Gladstone technique in both matched and traditional grip. It makes for incredibly fast double strokes!

How does the Gladstone work in trad grip?

[Zildjian232]

When (as a fearful 12 year old) I asked him if he thought Bonham was any good. He didn't say a word. All he did was shoot me a terrible look followed by 10 seconds of a dead on Moby Dick, without Bonham's edginess, but with immaculate technique. That moment has stuck with me my entire life.

what do you mean 10 secound of dead on moby dick and that whole thing about bonhams edginess/ immaculate technique

[Elvin4ever]

what do you mean 10 secound of dead on moby dick and that whole thing about bonhams edginess/ immaculate technique

I think intensity would probably have been a better word than edginess. No one was dissing Bonham here. I was just fascinated that Rich could within about a second start knocking off large chucks of Bonham, although in the Buddy Rich style. I was flabergasted that he had listened enough to do it at all period. To me it only meant that Rich was at the very least very interested in him.

[and of five]

honestly, i cant believe any of this.

to say that buddy rich could not be a great rock player, or latin player, or any player is RIDICULOUS.

i hate to be the one to have to say it, but the majority of rock playing does not demand a great deal of technical facility. the beauty of rock playing, is more in the composition, the way elements work together, etc. bonham, was obviously brilliant in this respect. so is peart, moon, <insert your favourite>

but at the very bottom of the issue is the simple fact that none of this is THAT complicated. you can preach groove all you want and say senseless things that apply only to someone listening strictly to the drums on a track, like "wow the way he displaced a 128th really blew me away" but you cant argue with the fact that..

chops = talent

maybe he didnt practice rock music, and maybe he wasnt the nicest guy. but it is clear to anyone with ears, that buddy rich was more then capable, had enough chops, enough brains to play pretty much anything <inesrt your favourite> did.

play a buddy rich track, and anything else that isnt by some late 90's technical monster, to a non-drummer and see who they think is better.

for instance, i could say portnoy is better then donati for the notes he doesnt play. or he grooves better, or some other overused drum forum lingo. unfortunately, that just wouldn't be true. donati could obviously pound out anything portnoy could play and about 100 times more. and if he doesnt play with restraint, its because he has the talent to do it without sounding stupid. its a cold hard fact of nature.

if you can't agree with it, your giving whichever 70's superstar you prefer too much credit. end of story

[Kevinm]

This argument is really getting a little ridiculous. Buddy's designed techniques are being used today by modern day drummers. It doesn't matter if he layed down a rock groove or not. So much of what we do can be transposed into different roots of music. So he didn't play double bass drums, it doesn't matter. Just look at what today's players are doing and go back and see if Rich was the originator. Give credit where credit is due!

Kruppa is not mentioned by todays crowd, because he was either dead (1973) and not publicized as Rich was or was retired ( prior to 1967). Rich had the advancement of TV and talk shows etc., of which Kruppa did not. Most people you ask today probably were after the Beatles, YardBirds, etc, or were not exposed to big band music by their parents.

As far as Rich not using his third tom or second floor tom, better go revist his solos again. Go check out the Drummerworld stick trick solo under Buddy's video's.

[kjsm]

this is classic though

can it be done with the matched grip?
can someone please explain?
i'm dying to know
make a video for us

[Clark]

Elvin4ever,

That Buddy Rich and John Bonham story is very interesting. Buddy and Zeppelin
actually played on the same bill once! According to Jason, John's son,
John met Buddy at the show. Elaborate more on Buddy's view of Bonham if you can.
I give you total credit for asking Buddy that question. That was probably the best question Buddy was ever asked.

By the way, Cathy (Buddy's daughter) took Buddy to see Zeppelin in 1973.

[dothecrunge]

Elvin4ever,

That Buddy Rich and John Bonham story is very interesting. Buddy and Zeppelin
actually played on the same bill once! According to Jason, John's son,
John met Buddy at the show. Elaborate more on Buddy's view of Bonham if you can.
I give you total credit for asking Buddy that question. That was probably the best question Buddy was ever asked.

By the way, Cathy (Buddy's daughter) took Buddy to see Zeppelin in 1973.

Do you know which show?

[indra zzz]

who know buddy rich heroes of drumming??

[onemat]

who know buddy rich heroes of drumming??

I know he loved Chick Webb in his earliest days of playing in Big Bands. Later he hung out with Krupa and Barrett Deems.

[Elvin4ever]

Elvin4ever,

That Buddy Rich and John Bonham story is very interesting. Buddy and Zeppelin
actually played on the same bill once! According to Jason, John's son,
John met Buddy at the show. Elaborate more on Buddy's view of Bonham if you can.
I give you total credit for asking Buddy that question. That was probably the best question Buddy was ever asked.

By the way, Cathy (Buddy's daughter) took Buddy to see Zeppelin in 1973.

Rich was always interested in anyone who was getting attention. But, as one poster already mentioned, Bonham the individual was nowhere near as famous then as he is now.
Yes, Led Zeppelin was a big deal in the 1970s. But in that era the considered headliner virtuoso of that band was Jimmy Page, although Bonham's underground clique was every bit as fervent then as now. Yes, Bonham had his followers. But again I agree with other posts. We thought guys like Carmine Appice were much bigger deals when it came to name recognition.

Bottom line, Rich was irritated if you spoke of any other drummer besides him. He wanted to mention the other guy. But he was aware of Bonham as early as 1970.

With that said, I agree with several others here. Rich could do anything he wanted on the drums, and could play anything that came to his mind, or your mind for that matter.

Look, I really believe too many of our younger colleagues are overly dependant on videos of Rich when making determinations of his greatness. I have never saw a Rich video (including At the Top) that even came close to what he actually sounded like either live or on those rather amazing Pacific Jazz releases, or even his 1939 recordings with Artie Shaw, or his early 1960s work with Harry James.

On the other hand, I also heard Zeppelin several times in the 1970s, and can say with confidence that the Zeppelin DVD going around (that seems to be owned by every 14 to 20 year old drummer on the planet right now) was just about the best I ever heard Bonham in any situation. With these parameters as a yardstick, I suspect it is harder for younger well intentioned and talented drummers to have a higher opinion of Bonham at the expense of the Rich legacy.

Buddy Rich kicked butt for 60 years. You cant make snap judgements about him. His legacy is beyond that.

[Clark]

John looked up to Buddy and I've heard John play jazz during an interlude when
Page broke a string. Obviously Zeppelin's music wasn't suited for that kind of drumming
so John played in the most suitable style for the band. He took the Carmine thing and and added his own flair to it.

Buddy and John played on the same bill at Newport Jazz Festival in 1969.

Buddy saw John at Madison Square Garden in 1973.

[dothecrunge]

John looked up to Buddy and I've heard John play jazz during an interlude when
Page broke a string. Obviously Zeppelin's music wasn't suited for that kind of drumming
so John played in the most suitable style for the band. He took the Carmine thing and and added his own flair to it.

Buddy and John played on the same bill at Newport Jazz Festival in 1969.

Buddy saw John at Madison Square Garden in 1973.

I'm guessing it was the last night? 1973.07.29?

[Crazy]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for that small vid' of Knudston, true things get clearer, but anyone have a video on that trick with the traditional grip ?

[Raymond Bloom]

I have one video with push-pull technique using trad grip, I will edit and upload that soon! ;)

[kjsm]

please would you upload your video jammaster
and also find some way of getting to us your jojo mayer solo video, the one in your signature

this putfile thing or whatever you are using will not work for me at all and i really want to see this and the buddy rich stick trick. can i no download it? that's what everyone needs, a download.

[Raymond Bloom]

please would you upload your video jammaster
and also find some way of getting to us your jojo mayer solo video, the one in your signature

this putfile thing or whatever you are using will not work for me at all and i really want to see this and the buddy rich stick trick. can i no download it? that's what everyone needs, a download.
The push-pull video is not mine it is an online lesson by a drummer whose name I sadly can't remember right now :(

[Crazy]

HI Jammaster,

Do you think you could get that trad grip push and pull vid' jojo explains it well but he goes too fast

[Lof]

Colin, excellent post on the Gladstone technique. That video is great at quickly explaining the open-close technique.

Lof

[giantantreal]

I believe I may be able to help you understand the mechanics of that technique so, here goes...

First, the most important aspect of this technique is the upstroke. Without a strong and fast upstroke you can forget it. You can sort of do it using only your fingers but, you will only be able to play it at a low volume and, you won't have the ability to move the stick to other parts of your kit because you simply won't have the lift that's created by a strong upstroke.

Secondly, timing is extremely important! Every component of the technique has to fall at a very specific point in time. To master this technique you will have to practice slowly at first. You can't just flail the stick around and expect it to eventually just happen.

Let's look at the components and where they have to fall on a rhythmic timeline. Think of the timeline as a one-beat measure of sixteenth-notes counted as "1 e and a".

Note: these instructions are for the matched grip.

Component A is the downstroke (occurs at "1"):
Starting from a STICK UP position, let the stick FALL to the drumhead naturally. Do not push the stick downward. If you do, you will have a very hard time achieving an even sound between the notes. There is no real effort required to do this...let it fall. (You may want to practice this component without sticks by holding your hand in the STICK UP position while maintaining light pressure at the fulcrum. If you are relaxed, you'll notice that the fingers are naturally close to your palms. Now relax the muscles that are holding your wrist up and let the hand fall naturally. Remember to maintain the fulcrum and don't drop your entire forearm. Only your hand should drop, turning at the wrist. I cannot emphasize enough that there is no real effort in this movement. Also note that, IF YOU ARE RELAXED, the wrist will naturally rise a little.)

Component B is the finger-stroke (occurs at "and"):
Okay, the first note has been played and the stick is rebounding. Play the second note using your FINGERS ONLY. There should be no other movements or efforts made. The wrist is at rest and your forearm muscles are relaxed, waiting to explode during the next Component. This relaxed state is extremely important because any tension will stifle the next (and most important) Component. I'm sure by now you realize that we've simply performed a basic Double Stroke. That's all this technique is...a series of Double Strokes. The catch is that you have to remove the time gap between the Doubles. Otherwise, your just playing a shuffle pattern. There is only one thing that can remove this time gap...Upstroke to the Rescue!

Component C is the all-important Upstroke (occurs at "a"):
This is the key to performing this technique and this is where all of the actual work is done. This is where you will make your strongest muscle contraction using the muscles located further up the forearm. The wrist is a hinge. There are muscles around your wrist but, they are used to control the trajectory that the turning wrist will follow. The real workhorse muscles are located up the forearm near the elbow. Think of the hinges on a door. You wouldn't go to open a door by pulling on the hinges would you? Of course not, you would apply force to the opposite end (the door knob) because there is better leverage meaning, less work to achieve the same or greater results. This is important to understand because, when you perform your upstroke, if you focus on pulling up from the wrist area, you will cause tension and that's a good way to go nowhere fast. Having said that, when you perform the upstroke, do it with a strong SNAPPING movement that returns the stick to the UP position. It must be quick and with good form. If you are relaxed and using the correct muscles, the wrist will naturally drop a little.

NOW, those are the components of this technique. Let's zoom out a little to get a bigger picture of what's going on. Looking at where each component falls on our rhythmic timeline, we see that the count is:

"1 - and a"

Extending this to a 4-beat measure we get:

"1 - and a 2 - and a 3 - and a 4 - and a"

That is the timing needed when PRACTICING this technique. Obviously, when playing at faster tempos you don't want to be so mechanical about things. However, at this stage you will have to be this mechanical until it becomes embedded in your mind what happens and when it should happen, rhythmically speaking.


A good exercise to help with the timing of the upstroke is:
Play the technique as described in one hand. In the other hand, play the last sixteenth-note of each beat. There will be hand-to-hand action between the two hands at that last note of each beat because the upstroke in the one hand should happen at the same time as the downstroke in the other hand. This will help you focus on the proper timing of the upstroke. However, as you get faster with this technique, you will probably abandon this exercise because its purpose will have been exhausted. Use this to simply help you with the timing.


Anyway, I hope this helps someone. It's solid information and it is precisely how I learned the technique. Good Luck!

Bah? *head explodes from too much information*

[kernond]

Hmm...you didn't really expect something like this to be learned in one sitting (or reading) did you? Take it one step at a time. If you don't have very good basic technique then you shouldn't even be thinking about something like this. If you are ready for something like this then give it a good month of practice before you just throw your hands up and walk away from it.

I can't imagine the steps being too much more simplified without leaving out important details. I basically tried to do a brain-dump on the issue. Maybe it will be of use to someone willing to learn something new.

:)

[Lambo]

Thinkin I'm gonna pick one up. Anyone got a recommendation?
Also, anyone know if there is any footage around the net of Buddy away from the kit ie an interview?

[somedrummer]

I hope to get every DVD with Buddy at some point.

[jangus]

Thinkin I'm gonna pick one up. Anyone got a recommendation?
Also, anyone know if there is any footage around the net of Buddy away from the kit ie an interview?

I believe theres a whole buttload of Buddy on Johnny Carson footage somewhere, but dont think theyve given much to the public. Shame.

[Dr. Neaux]

Live at the Montreaux Jazz Fest, Channel One Suite and West Side Story-The Lost Tapes(recorded in the 80's in surround, very cool), Jazz Legend Pts. 1, 2. Those are the one's I have seen and they are great.

[petersdrew]

Years ago when I was in college I met Buddy at a small hotel lounge near us in Grand Rapids, MI. He was half asleep during the first hour set but when he came back for the second hour...man what a show!! He did the stick Click Trick and explained that he was taught that when he performed on stage at 4 years old! He used to perform without a drum set...just sticks...and he also would throw the sticks on the floor so they would bounce back to his hands. He showed me both and really it isn't that hard...just a lot of practice as you are hitting one stick on the downstroke and the other on the upstroke. I am not that great of percussionist but I was able to build up to a reasonable speed for my music exams in college. The stick bounce off the floor isn't so useful but I used to practice that as well and I got so 90% of the time they would come up correctly..cool BUT ...the other 10% makes you look like an idiot!

Good Luck!

[Phydoux]

After watching the 2nd video file from West Side (Downloaded from here) It appears that he's doing alternating 32nd notes. He doesn't appear to be doing any RRL RRL RRL... as was earlier stated. He's just hitting the sticks together very fast. Very awesome to watch never the less... It's too bad they didnt have the quality video back in the 50's & 60's like they have now, otherwise, I'd bet there'd be 100 times more footage of the legendary Buddy Rich!

[Phydoux]

After watching the 2nd video file from West Side (Downloaded from here) It appears that he's doing alternating 32nd notes. He doesn't appear to be doing any RRL RRL RRL... as was earlier stated. He's just hitting the sticks together very fast. Very awesome to watch never the less... It's too bad they didnt have the quality video back in the 50's & 60's like they have now, otherwise, I'd bet there'd be 100 times more footage of the legendary Buddy Rich!

[Phydoux]

After watching the 2nd video file from West Side (Downloaded from here) It appears that he's doing alternating 32nd notes. He doesn't appear to be doing any RRL RRL RRL... as was earlier stated. He's just hitting the sticks together very fast. Very awesome to watch never the less... It's too bad they didnt have the quality video back in the 50's & 60's like they have now, otherwise, I'd bet there'd be 100 times more footage of the legendary Buddy Rich!

[Phydoux]

After watching the 2nd video file from West Side (Downloaded from here) It appears that he's doing alternating 32nd notes. He doesn't appear to be doing any RRL RRL RRL... as was earlier stated. He's just hitting the sticks together very fast. In the other video clip the one that was refered to earlier... I think he's actually doing a para-diddle (RLRRLRLLRLRRLRLL)... Very awesome to watch never the less... It's too bad they didnt have the quality video back in the 50's & 60's like they have now, otherwise, I'd bet there'd be 100 times more footage of the legendary Buddy Rich!

[Lingenfelter Twin Turbo]

Just wondering how many others were able to see Buddy Rich perform live. I saw him twice and have never seen another drummer like him since! Words simply cannot describe his playing. Now his personality is a whole nother topic! Rude to say the least. Would not even give me an autograph, and the shows were attended by around 60-75 people.

[Dr. Neaux]

I got to see him in 1983. I was about 10 years old. I don't remember much about that night other than I was so floored by watching this old guy tearing up this little Sears catalog drum set(that's what it looked like to me anyway). My dad took me to see him and I didn't really want to go at first. I wasn't at all into jazz at the time and I was used to seeing drummers that played on bigger sets of drums than what Buddy used. But I went anyway and by the time Mr. Rich was done my dad was picking my mouth up off the floor. I couldn't believe it! I mean, I've seen drummers bang on their sets but Buddy PLAYED his. I listen to his music and watch his video's all the time and I always learn something new everytime. Buddy is second on my "influences" list, right behind my dad.

[mlehnertz]

I saw Buddy twice in the early 80s. Good stuff.

[Pete Stoltman]

Happy to say I was able to see him once. Must have been early 80's. Great performance and smoking band.

[Oldie]

I saw him in Norway, 78 or 79 I think.
Awsome!

/Frode

[Jookbox]

unfortunately i didn't know who he was until years after he died, (and when i started drumming)

[Joe Morris]

I saw Buddy Rich at least 10 times at a small club in Wilkes-Barre, Pa called the highlighter or something like that. He always played his ass off, but man a few times somebody pissed him off and he and the band just quit playing for the night.

I was also lucky enough to accidentaly bump into Buddy at a bar the night before he was to play. It was mid afternoon and he was just in there having some drinks. I got to hang out with him for hours, he was a fun guy if you got to hang with him.

JOe

[Sticksman]

I saw Buddy Rich at least 10 times at a small club in Wilkes-Barre, Pa called the highlighter or something like that. He always played his ass off, but man a few times somebody pissed him off and he and the band just quit playing for the night.

I was also lucky enough to accidentaly bump into Buddy at a bar the night before he was to play. It was mid afternoon and he was just in there having some drinks. I got to hang out with him for hours, he was a fun guy if you got to hang with him.

JOe

Hah! That's great, you were probably the only guy in that bar he respected!

[LongSnapper]

I'm relaying this information from another post, but I actually ecountered Buddy Rich twice.

Back in the old days, I worked as a security guard in Detroit during the summer while going to school. My main "gig" was something called the Bob-Lo boats on the Detroit River. However, for two weeks I worked at something called the "Reniassance Center," as it was being completed. I'ts now the home of General Motors.

On a Saturday night, I was working the back of the place watching three parking lots. It was an uneventful job with not a lot to do so I started bringing my pad and sticks with me as I stood in that booth.

I stood with my back to the building, looking out on the lots, and I was practicing my paradidles at the time. Five guys approached me, and one of them said, "Hey! Nice Paradiddles you got there."

As I mentioned previously, they were almost finished with the place, but parts of it were still a mess inside. Come to find out the five of them were inside, took a wrong turn, and were suddenly outside and had no clue how to get back in.

I was very impressed that the guy could actually tell what I was doing just by watching my hands, and he also noticed that I'm a lefty with a traditional grip. He pointed out what I was doing wrong with my right wrist and gave me a short lesson on what to do with my fingers.

Then one of the guys said, "Hey Buddy, we gotta git..."

My eyes widened, and I swallowed air as I tried to say, "Buddy? Buddy? Buddy Rich?"

"Wow!" I exclaimed. "Thank you, thank you thank you..." As I shook his hand with both of my hands.

As I remember, I was about 17 at the time, and hadn't been taking lessons all that long. I knew who Buddy Rich was, but I didn't know Buddy Rich, if that makes any sense.

Then, two years later, I was scheduled to work a Saturday night charter cruise on one of the ships. The entertainment for the evening was Buddy Rich, with what I assume were local musicians playing along with him.

The weather was horrible, and even though the ship could hold close to 2400 people, only about 400 or so showed up. On the 2nd deck, from mid-ship aft, was the dance floor, with a small bandstand just about mid-ship. That's where he set his kit up and the other musicians played out in front.

For the better part of three hours, I stood no further than five feet from him, watching him play.

The end result may not be what you would think. For me it was absolutely devistating. Maybe being 19 years old and a little too self absorbed, perhaps, but I became so depressed and intimidated watching him. You could not see the sticks at times, and his forearms never moved!

I just kept thinking to myself, "I will never be this good... NEVER!"

I didn't realize at the time that arguably no one else was that good either, and that it's okay, and that there's no shame in being less proficient than Buddy Rich!

[TOMANO]

LongSnapper,
That's a great story. Buddy was, and still is, THE MAN!

TOMANO

[ThomasDee]

I saw Buddy Rich at least 10 times at a small club in Wilkes-Barre, Pa called the highlighter or something like that. He always played his ass off, but man a few times somebody pissed him off and he and the band just quit playing for the night.

I was also lucky enough to accidentaly bump into Buddy at a bar the night before he was to play. It was mid afternoon and he was just in there having some drinks. I got to hang out with him for hours, he was a fun guy if you got to hang with him.

JOe
Buddy in a bar in the afternoon drinking? Please elaborate........

TD

[ThomasDee]

I have to admit, I'm one of the unlucky ones that never got to see the master play except through all the wonderful videos that are available. Having said that as a drummer and video production guy Buddy Rich is always at the forefront of my work on a daily basis.

Working for WFD and Drumometer in which if you know the story of how the debate between Barrett Deems and Buddy Rich inspired the instrument and the entire WFD movement then you can imagine what an influenece he is each day on every video cut at WFD.

Although I never got to see him, to me living through his works, I have to say he is the greatest that ever lived. If you haven't checked out his works please do. He was not only one of the fastest or the best, he was and still is the greatest!

TD

[flip1234]

I saw Buddy 3 times and still remember a lady shouting to him "when are you going to do a drum solo?" shortly after he finished West Side Story! Everybody laughed when Buddy hollered back to the lady "what the hell do you think I've been doing up here for the last half hour?"

[carlgough]

My Dad took me to see Buddy in Southport UK. He died not too long afterwards as I recall (so it must have been around 85/86).

I didn't realise at the time how important this gig would become to me in later life because (at 13 years old and with only 2 years experience under my belt) I was too young to fully appreciate it.

But I do recall he had a talent that was off the scale and a style that was very aggressive, which combined to captive the audience.

Talent aside I suspect he was quote an imposing and intimidating character to come face to face with. I wouldn't have liked to rub him up the wrong way if you know what I mean.

[Andy]

My drumteacher saw Buddy Rich Live.

It was in Germany in the 80s.

He performed some awesome stick tricks and a great solo.

[funked_up]

I saw Buddy twice in the early 80s. Good stuff.

You sound just a little too relaxed about that...

[drumaddict21]

My band director played with buddy. He said someone played a wrong note and buddy fired him right there on the spot. harsh

[MooseMasterBass]

You sound just a little too relaxed about that...

Almost unnerving... hehe, ive never been alive at the same time as buddy, so im kind of hoping im him reincarnated. Ive seen some videos though, and it is depressing. There was a man who could drum.

[TOMANO]

Buddy Rich was, and continues to be, a guiding light for this musician. His approach, ability and delivery was uncanny. I remember the first time I saw him on the Tonight Show...my 6 year old head FELL OFF! I am fascinated by the man, the legend and the musical accomplishments of the man. His abrasive nature is a source of criticism for some, but I think it's all part of the legend. Above and beyond his incredible talent, Buddy was, first and foremost, a music lover. That passion shows in everything he did.

TOMANO

[kzdruma]

Did you see that slingerland is making a Buddy Rich Kit! To bad its over $5000.00. I bet it sounds amazing. I just saw someone with one of there newer kits…. WOW!

[Tutin]

I saw some videos of Buddy soloing yesterday and to be honest (I know I'll probably get a slagging for this) but it just seemed to be constant speed, really fast rolls and no real groove. Impressive but very repetetive. The one handed roll is quite impressive.

[rjvsmb]

I saw some videos of Buddy soloing yesterday and to be honest (I know I'll probably get a slagging for this) but it just seemed to be constant speed, really fast rolls and no real groove. Impressive but very repetetive. The one handed roll is quite impressive.

Tutin,

Hopefully no one rips you for making an observation base on SOME videos. However, Buddy has 60 years of material to listen to. Trust me when I say, the man can grove.

Buddy was more that just solos. He was about the music and his part in an arrangement. His timing was flawless, his fills were right for the song, and he drove the band. (and I don't mean the bus)

Listen to and watch as much as you can. If you get a chance watch the Jazz Legends DVD of Buddy. The opening solo shows his hand technique and his hand foot coordination at an impressive speed.

In the Live at the Montreal Jazz Festival DVD, his brushwork on Brush Strokes has a nice grove and his cymbal solo on West Side Story shows technique and touch.

Keep your ears and eyes open when listening to and watching Buddy. There is always something to discover in his playing.

[Dr. Neaux]

I saw some videos of Buddy soloing yesterday and to be honest (I know I'll probably get a slagging for this) but it just seemed to be constant speed, really fast rolls and no real groove. Impressive but very repetetive. The one handed roll is quite impressive.

I've got an old cassette tape of Buddy live at his club Buddy's Place. The opening tune is Chameleon, a Herbie Hancock piece. Buddy flat grooves his you-know-what off. In fact, he doesn't take a solo on any of the tunes on that recording. He just jams with the band. Buddy could do it all. Not slamming you or anything but man, check out some of his albums and dvd's(as rjvsmb mentioned, check out Live at the Montreal Jazz Fest) if you get the chance. You'll be amazed at how stinkin' good he was.

[Wegadrummer]

no, i was born one month after he died..

[Skitch]

I saw Buddy play at Yukon High School in 1983 or 1984. He fired one of the trumpet players right after the first song. Say what you want about Buddy, I would rather have people skills and be someone wants to be around. His most notable recording is of him cussing his band out on the bus. Unfortunately, this is what he may be remembered for more than his great playing. Vinnie Coluiata is of a greater caliber than Buddy could ever hope to reach and a much better person

[Henry II]

I had the privilege of seeing Buddy Rich play twice. I was in my 20's both times. In my opinion he was the best drummer who ever played, and arguably the best musician (jazz, classical or otherwise), who ever played.

[Dannar]

I found this audio clips of Buddy "having a word" with his band. I should warn you that this contains some very harsh language. I'm gonna assume that Buddy didn't keep this band around too long!

http://www.cis.rit.edu/~ejipci/buddy_rich.htm

[rendezvous_drummer]

woah......is that really him? It's kinda funny.

[jangus]

Thats stupid that people make a fuss about that. I would be the same way if I was him. I would want my band to be the best. He is paying them his own money you know.

[aahznightsky]

I'm gonna assume that Buddy didn't keep this band around too long!




Ummm, that's why buddy is dead and his band has since played with the absolutely biggest names in drums (besides BR)! And the band is really smoking, if you havent noticed. They can play! I wouldn't mind playing with them.

[TOMANO]

Responding to the last post, I'm pretty sure Buddy Rich is not dead due to the fact that he didn't keep a particular band together. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure...Yeah, um...yeah...

As for the "Buddy Bus & Backstage Bootlegs" (or the Quadruple Bs as I like to call them,)
if you listen closely, it seems Buddy is more into hearing his own machismo than actually being sincere in his threats. The late, GREAT, Steve Marcus from the BRBB told a great story of coming off the band stand one night, feeling like he had done wonders on his sax. Buddy thought differently, and started yelling, screaming and threatening job termination, all the while attempting to unbutton a new shirt his wife bought him. In the middle of the tirade, Buddy pauses, changes tone, softens his face and asks Marcus, "Hey man, you want this shirt?" Steve says he doesn't think it would fit him. Buddy asks around for someone who might like the shirt, then goes back into his verbal beating of Marcus. That story says a lot...

TOMANO

[foursticks]

this just made laugh, but i can understand his point of view, however there's no point in being THAT harsh about it. its all about respect all in all.....

[jangus]

I dont think its about respect. I think its about getting the job done and getting a paycheck. If I was in his band I wouldnt mind the yelling as long as I got paid. If you cant take a little verbal abuse you should go back to elementary school.

[stapes2260]

this clip has been around forever....


did you know that this clip is the basis for a seinfeld episode?

[foursticks]

I dont think its about respect. I think its about getting the job done and getting a paycheck. If I was in his band I wouldnt mind the yelling as long as I got paid. If you cant take a little verbal abuse you should go back to elementary school.
yeah you make a good point but if u call saying the f word 132 a little verbal abuse then i d hate to get on your bad side....

[burnthehero]

I've heard about Buddy's attitude before. It doesn't really surprise me, to be honest. Musicians with monster egos is nothing new.

[somedrummer]

I remember from my several readings of Traps, The Drum Wonder that Buddy just wanted everyone to be giving as much or more to the music than he was. And, If he felt that they werent, he was going to lay into them. It ws expected.

Personally, I would still love the chance to play with a band like that (even though they would chew me up and spit me out).

[Damon Dapper]

I think that was hilariously funny, and I'm sure some of his Band members were laughing pretty hard too.

Being on the road all the time is beyond stressfull.

Gotta Toughen Up!

Dap.

[jangus]

yeah you make a good point but if u call saying the f word 132 a little verbal abuse then i d hate to get on your bad side....

HA.


What Seinfeld episode? I never heard anything like that.

[LiveGoat]

I dunno, my dad was a lot like Buddy and if anything after awhile that sort of thing only leaves people feeling degraded and instinctively rebelling by screwing up more. Sure, an occasional "what the hell's going on fellas, get it together!" is fine but the kind of ranting Buddy did is just not right. That said, he's still a hero of mine and after all the drama, so's my dad.

LG

[finnhiggins]

There's a difference between being a hard taskmaster and being a prick.

Buddy was, reportedly, more of the latter from what I've read. I mean, compare experiences from musicians who worked with Frank Zappa to those who worked with Buddy Rich. Zappa had some of the best contemporary musicians in the world through his band, and he pushed them as hard as he could. Look at where he made Vinnie and Bozzio take their abilities, for a start. But you don't read stories about him doing stuff like this to his band.

Running a band is like running any business - you have staff, you have work they need to do, you have jobs that need to be performed correctly. Having a culture of excellence is one thing, but having a boss who screams at employees and threatens to fire them at random is another. And, IMHO, they're actually rarely the same thing. That's my experience, anyway. My feeling would be that Buddy managed to hold together an amazing band despite his tendency to go off the deep end rather than because of it.

[aahznightsky]

Responding to the last post, I'm pretty sure Buddy Rich is not dead due to the fact that he didn't keep a particular band together. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure...Yeah, um...yeah...


I wasn't saying his death had anything to do with keeping the band together or anything like that. I just meant that the band was able to survive and play afterwards, because they were such great musicians.

[Dannar]

Ummm, that's why buddy is dead and his band has since played with the absolutely biggest names in drums (besides BR)! And the band is really smoking, if you havent noticed. They can play! I wouldn't mind playing with them.


Buddy most likely didn't keep this band, he didn't have the same band his entire career, he replaced people, people left, the band that continues to tour as the "Buddy Rich Band" has probably even changed players here and there. I think this band wasn't a usual line up for Buddy, the whole time he is telling them to go back to Sydney, It may have just been a temporary band, since alot of big bands would do stuff like that. Just bring in a band and they would read the horn charts.

I agree that the current band is a really hot band!

[ClockworkOrange]

I laugh, every time I hear that stuff....it's EXCELLENT.

The kids working in the industry today, will NEVER know how hard most of the so called 'legends' had it. THEY WORKED damned hard....and they played hard, also.
They had a creed and an ethic, and if you couldn't hack it, you were nothing.
It was survival of the fittest, and that's why so many of the players from that era were as good as they were....the level of competition was so high, if you couldn't perform at it, that's it, you were toast.
Bands and players lived and died on their reputations to deliver. It's a system that could at times be very brutal, but, produced absolute masters.

And you should know, Rich was never harder on anyone, than he was on himself.

[aahznightsky]

Buddy most likely didn't keep this band, he didn't have the same band his entire career, he replaced people, people left, the band that continues to tour as the "Buddy Rich Band" has probably even changed players here and there. I think this band wasn't a usual line up for Buddy, the whole time he is telling them to go back to Sydney, It may have just been a temporary band, since alot of big bands would do stuff like that. Just bring in a band and they would read the horn charts.

I agree that the current band is a really hot band!


i don't know about the specific band he was yelling at on the link, but just based on the guys we see on the DW videos, you keep on seeing the same horn players and stuff. And then if you watch a few of the Buddy Rich videos, you can see the same players but younger! So whichever band THAT was, they were pretty swell. that's all i was talking 'bout.

[andrew_carter]

did you know that this clip is the basis for a seinfeld episode?
Oh come on, you can't just leave it at that! :) Which one?

Andrew

[berlioz]

Oh come on, you can't just leave it at that! :) Which one?

Andrew

heres the link to the answer (scroll down abit)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Rich

[Isaacs]

Interesting. It almost struck me as though he was mad (but more than mad, just venting) in that he threatens a lot but it does not seem as though he truly believes what he is saying. I mean, I know he was a pro and a perfectionist but it is not like he let bad musicians on the stage with him......I mean, there were try-outs, right?

I was laughing though, at times........."get him off the bus, right now, I don't want him on the ******** band, you ********* ***** ******* ******** playing like children you ********** I mean, I would have probably been scared to death in that spot but still, it's kind of funny now.

Isaacs

[mlehnertz]

And a song someone did regarding these tapes...

Buddy Cute (http://www.lehnertz.com/BuddyRich-Cute.mp3)

[Roo]

After watching the biography on Buddy Rich that his daughter pulled together for him, it's easy to see why he freaked out sometimes. It was stressed in the biography how much perfection he demanded from his band on a daily basis. If he played with all of the best in the world, it's no wonder he got frustrated with younger guys who thought they could play but really actually "sucked" in his mind. I know personally there's never such thing as a perfect gig, but I think Buddy defied that saying with an iron fist. Don't forget it takes a hell of a person to be able to keep his band in line like, and a hell of a drummer to do the things he could do!

hahahaha Mlehnertz, that song is freakin wicked, hahahahahaha

[sound zap]

I would love to see a brand new 21st Century Buddy Rich Memorial video

[centralzeke]

I've read in some places things along the lines of "if you want to play like Buddy Rich, i.e. develop speed, the gladstone technique is the way to go".

But then you look at Buddy Rich play, and it seems like he grips his sticks very tight and uses mostly wrist. It doesn't look like he uses as much of the rebound as other players like Weckl and Morello do. What's the deal?

[Class A Drummer]

We all would. i figured his whole life he should have gotten plastic surgery or somthin on his face... i know kinda random.

[Steviepap]

Having studied with Henry Adler, I agree that Buddy's grip is different. Henry modeled the way he taught students to hold their sticks and turn their hands on how Buddy did it (along with the fulcrum used by violin players). This included holding the right hand stick between the thumb and first crease of the forefinger. You would actually see a space between yhe thumb and forefinger. The right hand would generate movement by thew wrist, but also by the tip of the forefinger, as well as the 3d and 4th fingers. The left hand was propelled mostly by the thumb (using traditional grip), with the fingers very active in the process. The one difference that surprises people - and it surprised me, too - is how the left hand holds the stick with the palm facing up. Henry always said that to do otherwise would limit the turn of the hand.

[Lingenfelter Twin Turbo]

I don't think this one is on this site. He is 61 years old in this clip. Words can't describe Buddy's talent!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/buddy_rich_drum_solo_1978_buddy_is_61/

[AvengedDrummer]

Such an amazing solo....Those comments prove some people dont realize the skill it takes to do some of that stuff.

[Bonham to the moon]

man, i really think that he has the fastest hand of all time

[finnhiggins]

Such an amazing solo....Those comments prove some people dont realize the skill it takes to do some of that stuff.

The comments are a nightmare of idiocy as a whole on both sides. You've got the "Good lord, that's just noise, I could do better than that" school versus the "Man, u sux, haven't you eva herd of syncapashun? Plus, that's really hard to do!" crowd.

They're both right, in a way. Yeah, that stuff is immensely hard. Yeah, Buddy was one of a kind and he's still pretty much untouchable. But on the other hand, I find myself agreeing with the people listening to it going "That's not musical". Any five seconds of that solo would absolutely knock my socks off in the context of something more structured and dynamic, but as a whole I tend to find Buddy's solos quite dull because of the absence of space or shape.

He's the kind of drummer who blows me away when he's playing time, continues to blow me away for about twenty seconds of the solo and then shortly later causes me to switch off the album and listen to something else.

[Stu_Strib]

yeah finn, I agree. I am on record several times on DW as not being the biggest Buddy fan. That stuff is amazingly difficult, but man, it just gets tired after the 1st minute (not to mention, this is only like the 100th video just like that posted).

I think he put EVERY Buddy trick in that video...the one handed roll, the reach down and play the bass drum with the stick, the playing of the sticks together, playing on the rims and changing the pitch...All very classic stuff.

For those in that other thread that say "speed doesn't matter" they should probably watch this video and realize that without a practice pad and technique, 95 per cent of this solo is impossible. Also, for those who don't think rudiments are important, watch again.

But yeah, I'm with finn here. I was only blown away because I'm a drummer and I know how technically difficult a lot of that stuff is. As a music fan though, it doesn't do anything for me. I actually thought the best part was one he played that little groove with just his right hand and bass drum note. But being Buddy, that lasted about 5 seconds, then he was back to blazing singles on the hi hat.

[burnthehero]

I agree with Stu and Finn on this one. I don't get much from Buddy's solos. After about a minute, I feel like I'm just watching a chops-a-thon.

[Afrolicious]

Wow that's exactly what I thought but I've been unsure if I'm just ignorant and don't see the big cool concept behind these solos. Of course they're technically great but especially if you don't have that much knowledge about drumming they just bore you after a few minutes. I prefer musical stuff with a kind of melody.

[Stu_Strib]

if you don't have that much knowledge about drumming they just bore you after a few minutes.

Yeah, that's what I've never understood about Buddy. His drumming is very technical. Why do non-drummers like it so much? You would THINK people that don't drum would get bored of it, but they seem to like it better than people like me and finn.

[rjvsmb]

This thread has been an interesting mix of opinions (educated and not).
Buddy played with the people who are considered legends: Louis Armstrong
Count Basie, Bunny Berigan, Irving Berlin, Benny Carter, Nat King Cole, Miles Davis, Dorsey Brothers,Tommy Dorsey, Frank Sinatra, Roy Eldridge, Duke Ellington,
Ella Fitzgerald, Stan Getz, Dizzy Gillespie, Benny Goodman,
Lionel Hampton, Woody Herman, Harry James, Stan Kenton, Jimmy McGriff, Charlie Parker, Oscar Peterson, Artie Shaw, Bud Powell, Mel Tormé, Art Tatum, Lester Young,
Barney Kessel.

Sorry for the exhaustive list, and that's just a taste, but greatness is a combination of ability, talent and body of work. That list of names represents the three criteria I listed. Buddy wouldn't have had the longevity nor would he have played with the greats without being an extraordinary musician (and one of the greats himself). If you don't have an understanding of the greatness represented in the list of artists, then a good portion of the discussion is lost.

You may not like Buddy's style, and that's ok, but that does not change the fact that he is one of the greatest artists that make up the tapestry of American music history and shaped how drummers approached the drums. Much like Gene Krupa did before him and Baby Dodds before him.

If you have to question Buddy's musicality, then you haven't listened to him. Watch his Montreal Jazz festival DVD. A really great look at his speed, power, touch, his great techique, his ability to play for the song and drive a big band.

And for his solos consisting soley of fast single strokes, take another look. His snare and cymbal work is loaded with more than just single stroke.

I like Buddy's drumming. I am always blown away with what he can do with his feet and hands when soloing, but it's his drumming in context of the music that is really what makes me appreciate his talent.

Listen to the Burning For Buddy cd's, then listen to those same songs with Buddy playing. There is definitely a spark and drive missing without Buddy. The one guy who kick serious ass on those cd's is Marvin "Smitty" Smith - Wow!

Anyway, that's my take.

[TOMANO]

who know buddy rich heroes of drumming??

First off, thank you for that phrase. It's my new mantra.

From a couple of other angles regarding Buddy Rich:

I have listened to a lot of Big Band music and few, if any, SMOKE the way Buddy's did. (Figuratively, and possibly literally.) Buddy drove that band like a Ferrari and when they "updated" their sound to incorporate rock tunes, the results were unbelievable.

Also, I must say that like Puccini's left hand (pretty sure it was the left..y'know the one with the finger), Buddy's left hand had a life of its own. Adding counter-rythmns inside of the down beats was unheard of at that time.

I agree that like Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Mike Tomano, Igor Stravinsky and others...Buddy broke the mold and set a new standard that few can match, and even less surpass.

TOMANO

[Drummer Karl]

I think Buddy is great!! He has influenced my view on snare drum soloing and makes me want to work on my finger control and rudiments...thank you buddy!! He is so legendary and he was a great person!

Karl

[Wegadrummer]

one word : legend..

there is really nothing more to say..

[King Crimson]

My mother and step-father saw him a few times out west.

I never had the pleasure.

As a big Peart fan, I have read that he thinks Buddy hung the moon.

Thats good enough for me.

[Matt Walker]

I'm a huge Buddy Rich fan, I'm curious though..If you know about Buddy Rich, would you know about Adam Shendal too?

I feel Buddy Rich was a fantastic rudimental drummer, I think that he isn't the only one who's a legend though, more legends are to come I'm sure. Not many can do the stuff Buddy did, or play at his level though, the stuff that goes through his head while he was playing must have been insane.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Ok... we all know that it's NOT all about speed... but, anyway, regarding the speed, who could possibly match Buddy's to this day? I can't think of anyone... maybe Chambers, sometimes I can hear ultra fast single-hand strokes from him... Mr. Donati is another one who comes to mind.. not sure though. Any names? (certainly NOT Sr. Jojo Mayer... he's fast and very creative in the show-section, also a single bass hard-hitter and fast and stuff but... as fast as Buddy and Chambers when it comes to the HANDS??? I've never seen that happening!.. please someone, show me a video that could possibly prove it...?).

Thanx.

[Pocketman]

It's amazing that so many other topics have been brought from just mentioning Buddy. Here are my two cents:

Buddy - Best Drumset player EVER!!!!!! He was a complete original and the ultimate virtuoso on his instrument. Plus, if you watch his many video clips, I think he actually got better as he got older. His technique in his later years is absolutely perfect!! Louis Bellson said that there would probably be nobody better technically than him. Now I know that guys like Vinnie and Virgil have raised the bar in many ways but COME ON!! I can't think of a cooler drum solo than Buddy on "West Side" or anything else for that matter. His playing will be analyzed and (more importantly) enjoyed forever!

It's great that drummers like Travis and Joey are influencing younger guys to get better. That's the only way we can keep this great thing called "drumming" going in the United States. But for me, Buddy is still at the top.

[Clark]

Buddy was NOT at his best on the 1970 clip. Of course he was great, but he was better
on the later clips. Buddy kept improving. Look how Buddy applies his speed later.

[DogBreath]

It's great that drummers like Travis and Joey are influencing younger guys to get better. That's the only way we can keep this great thing called "drumming" going in the United States.
I've heard that people have started playing drums in other countries, too.

[onemat]

There's a video floating around of Buddy playing with the Boston Pops which appeared on PBS. In a version of "Westside Story Medley",
there is this place where Buddy is soloing very lightly on the snare and starts to get louder... he launches into "I Feel Pretty" on the snare. He's doing those incredible single strokes and his accents are beating out dah-dah-da, dah-dah-da, dah-dah-da-dump--da-da-dump-da-dah, etc. which was the meter of the lyric:
I feel pretty,
Oh, so pretty,
I feel pretty and witty and bright!
And I pity
Any girl who isn't me tonight.

I thought it was very musical thing to do in the middle of the solo.

Matt

[tambian89]

Is it really true that buddy rich couldn't read music? I thought that he couldn't, but his solos are so complicated and amazing, and he keeps on beat so well I really would have never known. I notice that in anything, the guy who is self taught always reigns supreme.....
- Marc

[brittc89]

Is it really true that buddy rich couldn't read music? I thought that he couldn't, but his solos are so complicated and amazing, and he keeps on beat so well I really would have never known. I notice that in anything, the guy who is self taught always reigns supreme.....
- Marc
Reading doesnt have much to do with the stuff you said. Vinnie went to Berklee, self taught, i think not! Hey that rhymes! Sweet.

[Stu_Strib]

Reading doesnt have much to do with the stuff you said. Vinnie went to Berklee, self taught, i think not! Hey that rhymes! Sweet.


Yep. I just watched the Steve Gadd/Zildjian tribute dvd, and every musician on that dvd is reading a chart (even Tom Scott on the tunes he wrote!). Vinnie's eyes where glued to his chart during "Nite Sprite", even though I'm sure he's heard/played that song 100s of times.

The advantage being, no need for lengthy group rehearsals. The rehearsal footage is pretty sweet, you get to see how those high caliber musicians work behind the scenes. Good stuff.

[Henry II]

If you wear dentures, maybe you should take them out now.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/)

PS: Don't click on the screen. Wait for the clip to load up.

[TOMANO]

That left hand had a life of its own. Un-freakin'-believable.

Long live Buddy.

TOMANO

[TOMANO]

I've heard that people have started playing drums in other countries, too.


Heck, I've heard this drumming thing has reached as far as Africa!!!

Can you 'magine?

TOMANO

[aahznightsky]

no the video wasnt working for me but the audio wasnt

but im over here wondering who on earth would be a non-buddy-believer, the guy is an animal in every video we see!

[tambian89]

Is it really true that buddy rich couldn't read music? I thought that he couldn't, but his solos are so complicated and amazing, and he keeps on beat so well I really would have never known. I notice that in anything, the guy who is self taught always reigns supreme.....
- Marc
How about this.......
Is it really true that buddy rich couldn't read music? I thought that he couldn't, but his solos are so complicated and amazing, and he keeps on beat so well I really would have never known. I notice that in anything, the guy who is self taught always seems to reign supreme.....
Happy?
- Marc

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Please, could anybody tell me what's the best choice to make when it comes to Buddy Rich's videos widely (or not) available? Just want to have a nice (the best, if possible) piece of drumming history at home from the distance of a (my) tv remote control. Just confort and admiration put together. Any Buddy full video that actually combines great sound + simply astounding (unbelievable) performances + great selection of acts ??? (maybe "Buddy Rich 'At The Top' "?) - that would be so nice to have!. Please let me know the best choice there is... I'm just as much a fan of the great Master as any of you, guys... :o)

Thanks a lot!.

- Ivo.

[AurelienPK]

Hey!

I'm a big Buddy fan and if I had to recommend one vidéo it would be the pack in which there is "The Channel One Suite + The Lost West Side Story Tapes", he's just amazing. Musically, It is not that amazing, he was towards the end and what everyone was waiting for was the drum solo, but man... when that drum solo comes!! He does an amazing intro on brushes too. There are also a few good bonus, interviews etc...
To have absolutely!!

Take care,

[intooder]

It would seem like at the time, to the non-drummer/musician, he was the most visually appealing drummer who also sounded busy at the same time

[Wegadrummer]

i wanted to write the same things as stu and finn did, but i didnt dare..

[T.Underhill]

Yeah, that's what I've never understood about Buddy. His drumming is very technical. Why do non-drummers like it so much? You would THINK people that don't drum would get bored of it, but they seem to like it better than people like me and finn.

I don't get that either. Any non-musical person I know tends not give a crap about drummers or they like more of the showman type (not that there's anything wrong with that...). When they see BR I expect "Yeah he's fast and he made a funny face", and when they see others its "OMFG! That part where his drumset flipped upside down was amaaaazing!" I see the opposite reaction most of the time...but hey, if they like Buddy they're cool in my book. Oh, and another killer solo by B.R!!

[DruManiac19]

i still think he has the fastest hands ever.
great clarity.

[foursticks]

definately one of my favorite drummers. i love all his work!

[rjvsmb]

Please, could anybody tell me what's the best choice to make when it comes to Buddy Rich's videos widely (or not) available? Just want to have a nice (the best, if possible) piece of drumming history at home from the distance of a (my) tv remote control. Just confort and admiration put together. Any Buddy full video that actually combines great sound + simply astounding (unbelievable) performances + great selection of acts ??? (maybe "Buddy Rich 'At The Top' "?) - that would be so nice to have!. Please let me know the best choice there is... I'm just as much a fan of the great Master as any of you, guys... :o)

Thanks a lot!.

- Ivo.

I really like the Buddy Rich Live At The 1982 Montreal Jazz Festival DVD.

[Womble]

i still think he has the fastest hands ever.
great clarity.

Over short bursts, I don't think I've ever seen anyone faster than Joe Morello; this is, of course, ignoring WFD competitors who play at about 3 decibels in an unmusical context.

[DrSolo]

I don't think this one is on this site. He is 61 years old in this clip. Words can't describe Buddy's talent!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/buddy_rich_drum_solo_1978_buddy_is_61/

Amen. For those drummers who think in order to do a solo they must have 10 drums & cymbals, time to think again. I was lucky enuogh to see Buddy & his band either '79 or '80 I believe it was. Just unbelievable performance.

By the way, I'm a C-5 owner & drummer...no twin turbo, but would love them!

[Class A Drummer]

Simply amazing. Your right this isnt on the site but they should put it on. Damn hes so fast.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Thanks a lot AurelienPK and rjvsmb!. I'll definitely consider both suggestions. : ]

- About Buddy and speed, I think I've never seen anyone that fast for so long periods of time with so little effort being put on the drumset. Also think that Buddy is underrrated by some people because he played in an era of less high-tech equipment and using a basic Jazzistic drum set and basically only playin' (not always) Jazz oriented material (including the Jazz influence into his great solos - some of the best EVER, imo). If you disconsider the sound quality and the drum sets full of tom toms and triggers around, when it comes strictly to raw technique, speed, creativity when soloing and sheer showmanship, I really think that Buddy is still THE man (Could anybody prove I'm wrong? I'm dying for something as much - or more??? - daring/inspiring as Buddy's classic videos through the net!). : ]

- Ivo.

[Cymbalrider]

I love his version of Bugle Call Rag. Norwegian Wood is probably one of my favorite songs too.

One thing I find amazing about him was his endurance. During his solos he almost never stopped playing something and yet continued to go on and was then able to come back in and finish the song just as strong.

His playing influences me today but I can't do any of it save for the little clicky stick thing but that's not that impressive except when he did it after one of those snare breaks.

DW is offering a Buddy Rich tribute kit (strange about the brand though I would have thought maybe Ludwig instead...). If I had the money I would buy it :)
Nothing beats the White Pearl wraps and that old look of cymbal mounts on the bass drum and a 24" bass drum 13", 16" toms.

I have yet to see anyone today play with the intensity and feeling that he put into his music. You can watch other great drummers play with the Buddy Rich Big Band but it's not the same.

It wasn't easy playing on that old Slingerland hardware either...unlike the Iron Cobras and such of today...

[pcmckay]

Has anyone checked out the latest clip that has been added to the Buddy Rich section? It is definately a must see. The clip is from 1970, he is playing a beautiful set of Slingerland's. You must check this out!

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

I love his version of Bugle Call Rag. Norwegian Wood is probably one of my favorite songs too.

One thing I find amazing about him was his endurance. During his solos he almost never stopped playing something and yet continued to go on and was then able to come back in and finish the song just as strong.

His playing influences me today but I can't do any of it save for the little clicky stick thing but that's not that impressive except when he did it after one of those snare breaks.

DW is offering a Buddy Rich tribute kit (strange about the brand though I would have thought maybe Ludwig instead...). If I had the money I would buy it :)
Nothing beats the White Pearl wraps and that old look of cymbal mounts on the bass drum and a 24" bass drum 13", 16" toms.

I have yet to see anyone today play with the intensity and feeling that he put into his music. You can watch other great drummers play with the Buddy Rich Big Band but it's not the same.

It wasn't easy playing on that old Slingerland hardware either...unlike the Iron Cobras and such of today...

His endurance is AMAZING. Great, phenomenal stamina. Have you checked out Buddy's solo from 1970 featured in this very same web site? Fantastic speed control, precision and inventiveness... one even better than this (in a way) is the one dating from '78 that Buddy was playing in Holland (at least it says "Holland" on the background...). Without mentioning the classic "Channel one" peformance. There's no better rudiments' player than B.R. He's made some miracles with his old Ludwig hardware. Definitely. No tricks (except for the STICK trick... heh) just plain straight on genius. I also enjoy watching the following drummers play: Gene Krupa, Thomas Lang, Donati, Weckl, Colaiuta, Gadd, Chambers, Lionel Hampton, Bonham, Jojo Mayer (for the tricks) and John Blackwell... great solos, technique and overall musicianship. The créme de la créme. The elite. Speed, "tricks", "on beat", grooves, creativity, showmanship, these names give me it all (all there is to learn). Although exactly NONE of those had shown me a higher level of drum-mastering than Mr. Buddy Rich "did" - does!. And by this I mean the old-fashioned "all around" best drummer in the world.

pcmckay - I did. Breathtaking. From start to finish (It's one of those solos that I wish that could never have an end, just wanted to see it going forever... eternally, unidentifyedly).

Womble - There's no way Joe Morello could be faster than Rich. I've found exactly no documented (video) evidence of that. I've found just a couple of videos and, although he was great, he, by no means, showed a faster tempo than Rich. If at least you could show me (us) ? : )

- Ivo.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Heh, for all the people sayin' Buddy couldn't be musical: I think you've NOT seen enough of them (videos). I've seen some rare Buddy-videos being very "musical" and not just throwing out "almost handomly" insane technically impossible tricks and chops or single-handed rolls every single second. The solos which are placed here, while great, don't really represent all of Buddy's "secret weapons", he could be extremely "musical", people just have to find those videos out and judge again for themselves. Even ART VERDI called him the GREATEST DRUMMER EVER. Just read his "testimonial". I'm still shocked when I watch all of Buddy's videos that I've got so far again and again. Every time seems to be the first. Simply God-given. If God could play the drums, he would be Buddy Rich.

Just my two cents (I wish they could be two "dollars" actually, heh).

Just didn't want to see Buddy being underrated when he doesn't really deserve ALL this negative feedback of "oh... he's insanely technical but that's 'all' ". Not fair on my book.

Take care.

- Ivo.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Buddy is to drums what Babe Ruth is to baseball. A legend larger than life. Certainly there have been limits pushed by many drummers who are considered more technically proficient. However no one pulled off such amazing feats with the showmanship that Buddy did. He had character and wit beyond what most drummer have these day's.

"there have been limits pushed by MANY DRUMMERS who are considered MORE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT. However no one pulled off such amazing feats with"

Heh, you must be kidding. Really joking. I'm sorry but you're wrong. Saying "BUDDY RICH", "MANY DRUMMERS" and "MORE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT" in the same sentence is ridiculous. Please prove it. I'd also love to see all those MANY drummers surpassing Rich's technical skills and going "beyond" (from where he went). Please? : )

- Ivo.

[Mod15]

buddy rich is simply the greatest, im glad to be able to watch his videos everyday

[toteman2]

"there have been limits pushed by MANY DRUMMERS who are considered MORE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT. However no one pulled off such amazing feats with"

Heh, you must be kidding. Really joking. I'm sorry but you're wrong. Saying "BUDDY RICH", "MANY DRUMMERS" and "MORE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT" in the same sentence is ridiculous. Please prove it. I'd also love to see all those MANY drummers surpassing Rich's technical skills and going "beyond" (from where he went). Please? : )

- Ivo.


I don't think he was kidding, in fact I would say he is correct. While I don't think there are many drummers more technically proficent than Buddy, there certaintly have been some. That is what happens with everthing given time.

Buddy was a showman, and the very best of his time. Alot of progress has been made off of Buddy's work. Now there are some drummers doing eveything buddy could do and much more. There are drummers today who excell at various styles. Evething gets better with time. It's evolution, and Buddy is no exception.

As much as I didn't want to write this in Buddy's thread, it had to be said.

[Melvin]

Drum solos are not the most important part of drumming, I wathch them for some fun but the real context is the groove.You can be a great solo drummer but if your groove sucks you suck too, you know what I mean? Buddy's musicallity was unbeliebable that's why he rules, or look at Mike Portnoy he drum solos suck but he is a great drummer because of he's musicallity and all the things he does with he's cymbals and stuff.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

I don't think he was kidding, in fact I would say he is correct. While I don't think there are many drummers more technically proficent than Buddy, there certaintly have been some. That is what happens with everthing given time.

Buddy was a showman, and the very best of his time. Alot of progress has been made off of Buddy's work. Now there are some drummers doing eveything buddy could do and much more. There are drummers today who excell at various styles. Evething gets better with time. It's evolution, and Buddy is no exception.

As much as I didn't want to write this in Buddy's thread, it had to be said.

No problem. Not at all. But could you please show me the videos? And which thing "that" drummer surpassed Buddy in? I can't see Dave Weckl's snare drum work been more inventive and faster than Buddy's. I can't see Virgil Donati being more creative, I can't see Jojo Mayer been faster, also can't see anybody else with the same qualities put together into one single person to this day. Buddy's solos (that if you've REALLY seen enough of them... just a dozen does not mean much at all) are untouchable. Speed control, effortless motions, trick-creations, chops, one-handed rolls, snare drum work, cymbals, everything is so different and sutile, I can't really thing of ANYONE that could provide me with so many atributes, so much qualities in one single person. No. Sorry. And even less "MANY" of them. If you really want to convince me and some people here, please just post some links to these many different drummers and tell me what has been improved so much from the later Buddy Rich's presentations to this day. Thanks.

Even the utterly respected Mr. ART VERDI and Mr. GENE KRUPA have admitted: "Buddy Rich is the greatest drummer who ever drawn breath; who EVER lived". And that goes directly against to: "hey... MANY DRUMMERS have surpassed Rich's abilities - just check it out" (ok, that last part "check it out..." is what has been missing here actually... would love to witness these so many genius drummers surpass Mr. BUDDY RICH. He's no perfect, OF COURSE NOT, but he was/IS THE BEST we've got (or at least, you should prove me I'm wrong. Any videos out there??? : )

- Ivo.

(SORRY FOR THE EDITs...)

[toteman2]

No problem. Not at all. But could you please show me the videos? And which thing "that" drummer surpassed Buddy in? I can't see Dave Weckl's snare drum work been more inventive and faster than Buddy's. I can't see Virgil Donati being more creative, I can't see Jojo Mayer been faster, also can't see anybody else with the same qualities put together into one single person to this day. Buddy's solos (that if you've REALLY seen enough of them... just a dozen does not mean much at all) are untouchable. Speed control, effortless motions, trick-creations, chops, one-handed rolls, snare drum work, cymbals, everything is so different and sutile, I can't really thing of ANYONE that could provide me with so many atributes, so much qualities in one single person. No. Sorry. And even less "MANY" of them. If you really want to convince me and some people here, please just post some links to these many different drummers and tell me what has been improved so much from the later Buddy Rich's presentations to this day. Thanks.

- Ivo.

You're entitled to beleive whatever you want. I'm not hear to convince you of anything. Continue to enjoy Buddy's work, I know I do. It's just my opinion and many others that there are some drummers doing things today that I find more impressive, technically and musically than Buddy ever did.

DrummerWorld provides us with hundreds of drummers and a blueprint to alot of their work. My adivise would be to research alot of these drummers and make your own comparisons if you see fit.

And lets get something straight. Buddy Rules! I'm not hear to badmouth him or present any negativity tword him.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

You're entitled to beleive whatever you want. I'm not hear to convince you of anything. Continue to enjoy Buddy's work, I know I do. It's just my opinion and many others that there are some drummers doing things today that I find more impressive, technically and musically than Buddy ever did.

DrummerWorld provides us with hundreds of drummers and a blueprint to alot of their work. My adivise would be to research alot of these drummers and make your own comparisons if you see fit.

And lets get something straight. Buddy Rules! I'm not hear to badmouth him or present any negativity tword him.

Ok. Let's stay peaceful (I also enjoy the fact that you're a "lonely" internet surfer like me... heh not too many people around this time of the night - at least where I live in). I've already watched dozens and dozens of videos by hundreds of drummers from this site and while some are amazingly gifted, heh (as I've told you... I'm not to repeat all over again... that's really tedious, I admitt it...), i simply couldn't find one single person with all "those" qualities been put together at the time of one of Buddy's incredible solo momentum; but i'll respect your oppinion though. As i also enjoy many other drummers, not just the old Buddy.

Take Care (and sorry if I was rude... didn't really mean to be so... it's just my "natural" way of "feeling" the discussion... nevermind...).

- Ivo.

[toteman2]

No offense taken, and I respect your opinion fully. The spirit of Buddy lives on forever!

Happy Drumming.

[Bernhard]

I will put up this 1978 video (from Hudson Music - classic drummers) these next days...

Bernhard

[Liquid_Drummer]

I have watched and watched and watched a clip I have of him doing this technique on an open high hat in slow motion and practicing it daily paying very close attention to his fingers and noticing that his wrist really doesnt move.. I cant explain it but last night I was watching law and order with practice pad in lap and there it was. Not as fast as buddy of course but close to that clip. If that clip was 140bpm I would say I was doing 100-110. It just happened. I "felt" what it feels like to do it right and the whole key was having NO TENSION in the wrist, foreare or hands. Its like like a quote from Gruber.. "Get out of the way". I cant believe it.

Now I must admit that my poor brain is so tied up with the technique that I cant do anything else but thats ok. All in time. I wish I could explain it to you guys because now it just makes sence and whats crazy is how little effort it takes. You just feel it when it happens and whats crazy is I was about to give up on it. Wham, out of no where I can all of the sudden do this now and after the shock wore off I was able to get it up to the speed in the clip but not keep it there for very long. All in time.. I would say that the Steve Smith and Dave Weckl DVD helped this happen since I have a better understanding about proper stick technique and rebound. Even though i will likley never use this in my general playing its got to be good for my poor neglected left hand. Its so great to feel a little growth after feeling stuck for so long.

[centralzeke]

Nice!!

Learning a new technique is so great. I think I felt the same way you did when I finally got the Moeller technique in my right hand.

[RTDRUMS]

now where talking. its nice to see so many people love Buddy...

[Henry II]

I don't think he was kidding, in fact I would say he is correct. While I don't think there are many drummers more technically proficent than Buddy, there certaintly have been some. That is what happens with everthing given time.

Buddy was a showman, and the very best of his time. Alot of progress has been made off of Buddy's work. Now there are some drummers doing eveything buddy could do and much more. There are drummers today who excell at various styles. Evething gets better with time. It's evolution, and Buddy is no exception.

As much as I didn't want to write this in Buddy's thread, it had to be said.

Then prepare to eat thy words and humble thyself at the altar of Buddy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/)

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Then prepare to eat thy words and humble thyself at the altar of Buddy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/)

I also have this video in my HD and Buddy's effortless and BEAUTIFUL hand motions, general technique, CREATIVITY and surgical precision are SHOCKING - to say the least. For the people who have not seen this: pay attention to the motions!, to the details... ;) breathtaking.

If anyone doesn't want to see this as a genius in this example (and there are a couple more at this same level - or even higher!), then you're all blind. How could anybody does not want to see a so explicit thing? :-) Let's keep the memory of the "world's greatest drummer" alive. :o]

- Ivo.

[Henry II]

I also have this video in my HD and Buddy's effortless and BEAUTIFUL hand motions, general technique, CREATIVITY and surgical precision are SHOCKING - to say the least. For the people who have not seen this: pay attention to the motions!, to the details... ;) breathtaking.

If anyone doesn't want to see this as a genius in this example (and there are a couple more at this same level - or even higher!), then you're all blind. How could anybody does not want to see a so explicit thing? :-) Let's keep the memory of the "world's greatest drummer" alive. :o]

- Ivo.

And keep in mind, Buddy was 61 years old when this performance was recorded.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

And keep in mind, Buddy was 61 years old when this performance was recorded.

Yup, I knew it. I'm also a big fan of him. :-)

There's not one single drummer so far that could do EVERYTHING that Buddy could (let alone MUCH MORE...). ;-)

- Ivo.

[toteman2]

Then prepare to eat thy words and humble thyself at the altar of Buddy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/ (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/62425/...8_buddy_is_61/)


Always humbled by Buddy. But, again my position stands. I've been exposed to alot of Buddy, and alot of others.

Sure he may have been 61, but he sure was on fire that night.

[Henry II]

Yup, I knew it. I'm also a big fan of him. :-)

There's not one single drummer so far that could do EVERYTHING that Buddy could (let alone MUCH MORE...). ;-)

- Ivo.

There's no single drummer that can do anything Buddy didn't already do, 1,000 times.

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

There's no single drummer that can do anything Buddy didn't already do, 1,000 times.

Absolutely, man!!! And there's still some people sayin' that he (Buddy, of course) could NOT be musical!!! Hehe... what a nonsense bulls*** it is...

Other drummers I also enjoy (and who posses some - and JUST some -) similarities in terms of talent with Buddy Rich: Joe Morello (great/excellent! technique, but not quite such an outstanding player as Rich), Dennis Chambers (technique, "huge hands", extremely fast with the hands and great creativity in general!!! A very funky and mastered drummer!!), Chick Webb, Steve Gadd (fantastic grooves, feelings while playin' and body movements), Lionel Hampton, Gene Krupa, Art Verdi, Mike Mangini (the world's funniest drummer EVER.. the guy is the dumbest drummer to ever seat on a drum set!!! Heh), Dave Weckl (fantastic technique and motion/speed control of any kind), Vinnie Colaiuta (fantastic drummer in almost/virtually every single rhythm in existence), Virgil Donati (great speed!, excellent technique and pretty interesting stick tricks), Thomas Lang (very similar to Virgil in terms of drumming atributes...), Hellhammer (Mayhem's - and for MANY other xtreme metal bands - drummer, the unique metal drummer to ever be graced with such honour - how how how... - insane double bass technique-and-speed ;-)) and Eloy Casagrande (QUITE young but EXTREMELY promising as a talent!!!), "etc".

I think that's a short and pretty cool list to hold as an influence to any drummer's help. At least that's how I understand all the drummers that I talk about above. Of course there are MANY others but I could'nt think of anything better when considering a shorter list of essential names which receive influence from.

- Ivo.

[Womble]

There's no single drummer that can do anything Buddy didn't already do, 1,000 times.

What an outrageously untrue statement. Why do people bother saying such things?

[Cuauhtemoc]

The man was one of the few artists in the world that God just said, "you're going to do that." I am amazed at the things I see him do and really believe that he could do anything that any drummer could do, as can the rest of us. Buddy just seemed to have that natural ability to more or less do whatever but there's nothing wrong with the rest of us doing what we do when we can.

While he was a master technician and could swing like no one he still cannot escape the realm of subjectivity. While I am always amazed at what he can do I can say that I prefer other drummers and their soloing abities as well as their groove, depending on the style of music, that is. I've never been too fond of watching guys just "go for it" with their single stroke rolls. Buddy and Ed Shaughnessy's battle for example was great but after 2 or 3 exchanges it got old. I'd rather watch drummers like Horacio Hernandez, Thomas Lang, Terry Bozzio or Bobby Rock who do a lot of ostinatos with their feet while they play with their hands, either solos or grooves. It's not just the challenge of 4-way independence but also the fact that it makes the kit sound more orchestral. After while a speed fest sounds like typing and how many of us sit there are day watching people type in the office?

Don' t get me wrong though, I still love whipping out the old videos and checking him out but I also think there are times to move forward and allow ourselves to witness the growth of the instrument. There's nothing wrong with admiring those that are here now as well as seeing them in the same light as Buddy. There's a lot of drummers, even in Buddy's time that were special and to just bow to this guy like he's God Almighty, I don't see the point. I guess I just feel for the kids who never got to see him live. I was really young at the time but I did get to see him play live once and it was indeed awesome. But to tell you all the truth, I've gotten the same thrill in watching some of the drummers today that are also doing things that a lot of us cannot do.

I guess all we can do is keep the discussion going. But again, Buddy was indeed special.

[Skylane]

In the words of Gene Krupa. "Buddy Rich is the greatest drummer ever to draw a breath."

[Heretic]

Sorry, I just don't like him. I know this is heresy, but his style has no musical quality to me. Very fast, precise, outstanding stick control (to say the least), but to my ear not musical.

Just my opinion, undoubtedly unpopular.

[Cowtown Boy]

Sure, Buddy Rich was great. But to say that he was the best ever is strictly a matter of opinion.

I saw Billy Cobham in the '70s when he was in his heyday, and I think that he was every bit as good as Buddy Rich. That's my opinion.

[Henry II]

Sorry, I just don't like him. I know this is heresy, but his style has no musical quality to me. Very fast, precise, outstanding stick control (to say the least), but to my ear not musical.

Just my opinion, undoubtedly unpopular.

Anyone who listens to Buddy Rich and hears only speed, precision and stick control, just isn't hearing Buddy Rich. Buddy was the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit, and one of the greatest musicians of any instrument, ever.

When you think of the greatest musicians in history, the true masters of their instruments, who do you think of? Jascha Heifetz, Vladamir Horowitz (or Arthur Rubinstein), Andres Segovia, Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Harry James, Charlie Parker?

Buddy Rich was every bit as great a musician as any of them!

[CadaveR (Ivo)]

Anyone who listens to Buddy Rich and hears only speed, precision and stick control, just isn't hearing Buddy Rich. Buddy was the greatest musician to ever sit behind a drum kit, and one of the greatest musicians of any instrument, ever.

When you think of the greatest musicians in history, the true masters of their instruments, who do you think of? Jascha Heifetz, Vladamir Horowitz (or Arthur Rubinstein), Andres Segovia, Tommy Dorsey, Benny Goodman, Harry James, Charlie Parker?

Buddy Rich was every bit as great a musician as any of them!

I may be wrong but this post is somewhat familiar to me...

- Ivo.