The Grand Master Buddy Rich

[drumbandit]

About a year, maybe 2 years ago when I started reading on this forum.
Before that I was a Travis Barker type bloke.
How things change!

Tom

[beefythedrummer]

About a year, maybe 2 years ago when I started reading on this forum.
Tom

Yup, I first saw him when I got on this forum about 4 years ago( I forgot my original screen name when I took a big hiatus from drumming and drummerworld). Everybody was talking about him, so I decided to look him up and sure enough he was nothing short of amazing. Not to mention the fact that every other video I saw he was still doing amazing things, that guy was relentless.

[Pete Stoltman]

I had heard of him about as long as I can remember but really started to listen in the early to mid 60's when his big band got going. When I started playing drums there were two names that everyone talked about Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich. I've heard that somewhere there is a bootleg video showing most if not all of Buddy's Tonight Show appearances. Those minutes with Carson were great and I always appreciated how gracious Ed Shaunessy was to have Buddy take over the drum chair on those shows. I suppose he didn't have a choice but Ed is a true gentleman and always seemed like he loved Buddy's performances as much as anyone else.

[michael drums]

Ohhh...


It was around 1973. On the Tonight Show. I was about 10. I knew right then I was gonna be a drummer. The first time I saw BR...I was speechless! And to this day, I'm still in awe of him every time I see or hear him play.

They broke the mold with Buddy Rich. NEVER to be another! Period.


Play On, BR! ;-)

[maddrummr]

I was looking up Buddy Rich cause i heard the name being talked about with drummers at school... and I found this great site called drummerworld.com with great stuff about him.

[Deltadrummer]

One of the first albums I ever bought was The Original Drum Battle. I was about ten. Then I got to see and meet Buddy at a free concert about that time. He was signing autographs, and I had him sign something I had, like the back of a business card. I always carried a wallet, even as a kid. I kept it for a while but don't know what happened to it. I guess the lesson is be better prepared when seeking an autograph. He ended the set with The West Side Story Medley; it was incredible. I went out and got some of his albums. I still have the lps. I should have gotten the lp signed.

[drummer-derk]

yeah i think buddy rich is one of the greatist drummers of all time
i found on youtube.com a clip about him with him and animal (from the muppet's)
batteling on the drums i lookt him up on drummerworld.com en here they have thousend of things about buddy rich his techniceu is great

greets,derk

[scott]

Ditto the Tonight Show appearances. I think Johnny Carson did alot to make some of us younger viewers at the time aware Buddy. I think it's great that Johnny really liked the drums and played a little.

For me, Buddy always had this intimidating persona on the show and a kind of cutting humor, like I was never quite sure what to make of him at the time. Now I see that alot of that was shtick but based on the fact that (from what I hear) Buddy could be a "formidable" person in real life.

Even now when I watch the clips that are out there, I think that it shouldn't be humanly possible to do what he does.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

probably around half way into the movie, they are playing this song by the ramones, and they do this little thing where the drummer kid is watching 3 clips, one is buddy, one is keith moon, and the other is some jazz guy i forget his name.

I may well be wrong, it's been a long time since I watched the film, but I think the third guy is Elvin.

[Guillermo]

The Muppet show... he started playing just the with the sticks by themsleves backstage... (no one could do this like Buddy, no one STILL can't) then he moved on to the stage did a solo and a drum duel with animal.

It was one of the coolest things ever... first drum solo I ever saw... of course I was a CHILD, no more than 7 years old...

I always liked the more subdued things Buddy did... like just playing with the sticks... his solos often were going all out 100% of the time and artistically, I find that personally to be terribly boring... maybe if Buddy was a kid now he'd be a death metal drummer.

However his later years playing was often sublime and inspired... I feel somehow he and the media pigeonholed himself a lot in this role of Buddy the intense larger than life soloist... yet his playing, not his soloing is what I admire most.

[mikei]

That is one thing I never understood. Often times kids mention "who is the fastest" or "how can I play faster" and they get shot down by some of the member.

Yet, these are the same people who love BR.

Now, I have never seen somebody play like BR. Truely unbelieveable. But, BR solos were almost always about speed. Of course he had stellar technique, but, from what I have seen, BR was playing fast almost all the time.

I love BR and he was the greatest, but a lot of what he did that amazed us was based on his speed.

I think if he was a kid now, he would be a great death metal drummer!

[tizzdizz]

My dad loved him, and would play his records for me. Somewhere, I have a tshirt of his from a concert in '75 I think. Anyway, now that both my dad and Buddy are gone, every time I watch, I feel a little bit more connected. Maybe that sounds weird, but eh.

I've heard stories about Buddy's 'gruffness' too. My brother, a music major at Cal State Northridge, heard some interesting tapes that his trombone teacher played. Apparently the guy played in the BR big band at some point, and he had recordings of the "lectures" Buddy would give the band after a show. From what I hear, he took performances very seriously, to say the least. Can anyone tell any more detailed stories about this? I've always wondered about what his personality was like...

[Class A Drummer]

Not sure if this video has been posted or not but its just another amazing Buddy Performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5reK-_e-02Q

[onemat]

Not sure if this video has been posted or not but its just another amazing Buddy Performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5reK-_e-02Q

I've seen video of this whole show, it's got some pretty funny spots. Especially when a drunk patron keeps screaming and yelling appreciation, Buddy looks at him and says "shuuuuuudUP!" It's pretty funny.
Matt

[Jeremy Bender]

Well...tizzdiz here's a link (warning, lots of cursing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

[nhzoso]

Well...tizzdiz here's a link (warning, lots of cursing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

Great Drummer, Horrible Human being.

[aydee]

Well...tizzdiz here's a link (warning, lots of cursing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

Wow, I'd heard about the temper, not heard the temper itself...

Most geniuses find it hard to tolerate mediocrity, I guess. Buddy got pretty worked up!

[jjmason777]

Brutal...just brutal.

[michael drums]

Well...tizzdiz here's a link (warning, lots of cursing) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

Wow, Jeremy!


Incredible find, here. I guess if you keep searchin' YouTube...you'll find some amazing stuff!

I wonder who recorded these? Hmmm...


Oh, and nhzoso,

People in glass houses...


:-|

[nhzoso]

[QUOTE=michael drums;380372]Wow, Jeremy!


Incredible find, here. I guess if you keep searchin' YouTube...you'll find some amazing stuff!

I wonder who recorded these? Hmmm...


Oh, and nhzoso,

People in glass houses...


:-|[/QUOT


Whatever dude, In all seriousness though, Keep my name out of your idiotic posts from now and I will do the same.. Thanks

[PeartWeckler]

My first drumset was a kit that Buddy did a clinic on back in '74. But I didn't go to the clinic, and all I have is my brothers word, because it was he who went to the clinic, and it was he who owned the drums before he gave them to me when I was 14. It was a blue sparkle Ludwig 5 piece. They were traded for an ugly Slingerland kit that some guy swindled me into buying, because he was a pro player, and something about the kit on stage threw me.

Anyway, it's hearsay but it's close enough for me. Heck, at least I was aware of Buddy at an early age.

Steph

[michael drums]

Again....


People in glass houses...


'Cause, apparently, it wasn't understood the 1st time...


Uhhhh....


Thanks.

[mikejames]

I've just launched a Podcast series for drummers, and it contains some great insight into the careers of both Buddy Rich and Stan Getz. Episode #01 includes interviews with Cathy Rich, (Buddy Rich's daughter) Bev Getz, (Stan Getz's daughter) and an exclusive interview with Donny Osborne. (named as Buddy Rich's protege when he was 14, and at age 17, hired by Mel Torme, where he remained for 25 years.)

You can download it (free of course) at http://www.mikejamesjazz.com/podcast_index.html

The total time of the Podcast is 1 hour, 35 minutes, so be warned... It is a LARGE file. (95 MB for the QuickTime version and 85 Mb for the (iPod) "m4v" version. But, there are so many great stories on it, I think it's worth the wait for the download. (or if you prefer to watch the QuickTime version in your browser, it's set up for streaming.)

Enjoy, everybody!

PS> Guys, don't waste your time listening to, or thinking about these stupid "bus tapes". What Buddy gave us is nearly 70 years of great music and great drumming. Anything else that went on behind the scenes is irrelevant, at best.

[Jon Cable]

Not sure about that Mike; part of Buddys appeal to me was the whole persona, the rants against Dusty Springfield/Osmonds/Country music, and his intolerance for people who wouldn't try to do their best!! OK, so his interpersonal skills may have needed work BUT he was right, he didn't need them. If ya work somewhere and don't pull your weight then you get chewed out, and that what Buddy was doing...AS WELL AS giving 70 years of awesome music from the greatest drummer to ever draw breath!!!

[mikejames]

Jon,

I couldn't agree more. Those of us who grew up listening to and watching Buddy have an "understanding" of the whole person. My comment was really intended for people who are new to Buddy, and "write him off" because they heard a specific (negative) story.

I love and miss him, for a variety of reasons. Whatever else is said, he absolutely was one of a kind.

[aydee]

"drums keep pounding rhythm to the brain
ladi-dadi dee....ladi dadi daa! "

kinda says it all...............!

[michael drums]

Not sure about that Mike; part of Buddys appeal to me was the whole persona, the rants against Dusty Springfield/Osmonds/Country music, and his intolerance for people who wouldn't try to do their best!! OK, so his interpersonal skills may have needed work BUT he was right, he didn't need them. If ya work somewhere and don't pull your weight then you get chewed out, and that what Buddy was doing...AS WELL AS giving 70 years of awesome music from the greatest drummer to ever draw breath!!!

Jon...once again you're right on target! I couldn't of said it any better.

Buddy was Buddy. He "earned" what he got, and where he was. Period. I don't think anyone has ever implied the BR was the "greatest interpersonal communicator to have ever drawn breath".

No one is/was perfect. And I guarantee you, BR didn't think he was either. He was just one of the hardest workers in the business, and he expected nothing less from those around him. His confidence confused people. AND still does.

"Let he who has not sinned...cast the first stone".


Play On! ;-)

[Ian Ballard]

I turned the radio on to the jazz station the other night. I heard this nice, tasteful solo; perfectly executed, beautifully groovin' and utterly virtuous. No crazy chops, no wild rolls or fills.

I was certain it was Buddy due to the drum sound, but I'd never heard this solo before. Sure enough, the band kicked in and it became obvious.

I've been listening to this guy since I was tiny and he still never ceases to amaze me.

[tak22thegoat]

"drums keep pounding rhythm to the brain
ladi-dadi dee....ladi dadi daa! "

kinda says it all...............!

I have that song! Who is singing that song? And is it the BR Big Band?

[aydee]

I have that song! Who is singing that song? And is it the BR Big Band?

Yes it is. Dont know about the singer. I have a funny feeling it was his daughter...

[Mook]

It's his daughter - Cathy.

[mosher]

No contest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwJAAlXomVk

[2bsticks]

Have to agree with you on that video

[GetAgrippa]

Buddy Rich inspired a generation of drummers. I remember watching him on the tube throughout the sixties as I grew up (Johnny Carson loved Buddy!). His left hand was just a monster of control and speed, and he continued great drumming till his death. I was surprised with his interest in the martial arts as I always heard he was somewhat superstitious and concerned about injuring his hands. Probably an urban legend. He probably wacked bricks in half with that left hand. What a legacy with the Buddy Rich Band!!

[richcapo]

If anyone is interested, I posted a bunch of half speed Buddy Rich solos on YouTube. Follow this link to watch and discuss:

www.youtube.com/richcapo

Watching these videos at half speed reveals some things that might shock you, especially with respect to his speed. A good way to gauge Buddy's higher speeds is to watch closely his hi-hat workout in this video www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kGqppouPvs. The workout runs at 2:07-3:11 and 4:23-5:07. Here, his right hand carries long strings of notes, while his left adds accents here and there on the underside of the hats. At half speed, the right hand sounds like it's playing eighths at 210. When his left hand hand alternates with his right, rather than add accents, as it does to make three and four note figures around 2:39-2:42, 3:09-3:11 and 4:43-4:44, the notes played between both hands sound like 16ths. Believe it or not, at full speed, that makes for a speed of 14 notes per second in Buddy's right hand, and a speed of 28 notes per second between both his hands, which is far faster than I have ever heard any drummer play. (Now, whether Buddy could have sustained that speed for a full minute, a la the World's Fastest Drummer competition, is unknown, of course).

The techniques used during the hi-hat workout are applied from 6:22 to 6:45 on the crash cymbal in the above video. Again, Buddy's right hand plays long strings of what appear as eighth notes at 210, while adding left hand accents on the underside of the cymbal. These accents typical appear at this speed as quarter notes and notes of greater value. At full speed, then, the right hand is push-pulling at a speed of approximately 14 notes per second.

(You can also see Buddy achieve that speed in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5k-8iGXjPs at minute 6:15 to 6:35.)

The half speed videos also show Buddy as being able to cruise for long, long periods of time in the 10 or so notes per hand per second range of speed, as he does in this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RAOTOaBgtA. From :08 to around 1:30 in this video, Buddy's left hand is playing at a speed of around 10 notes per second, from what I can tell. If you measure these notes against a metronome, you'll see that they synch with eighth notes at 150 beats per minute at the half speed pace of the video. At full speed, these are 16th notes, of course, which make for approximately 10 notes per second in his single hand.

Lots more cool stuff in these half speed videos. Check em out, if you like.

_richcapo

[Smashin Jack]

Here's my 2-cent Buddy story: I had seen Buddy in various Modern Drummer articles and ads, also the classic Ludwig posters at all the music stores when I first started playing. I knew he was an icon but really didn't know why. Here I was studying Neil Peart and John Bonham thinking "who's this old dude they call buddy?" Well, I got a cold smack in the face one fine winter day in early 1984 at my high school. Buddy came there and my mom bought several front row seats for the show. So, the band started playing some tunes, then buddy did a solo and I was like "wow, this guy is great!". Then, the band took an intermission, they played a few more tunes, then what I was about to witness would change the way I look at drumming and age forever. Biddy went into another solo. This was the REAL solo, though. That cat did the most amazing solo I've ever seen in my life. He made the fastest rock drummers look like they were in slow motion. His agility and awe-inspiring technique was almost unearthly. I couldn't shake his hand. The guy wasn't human. I loved the way he used creativity to create more sonic possibilities rather than adding more toms and cymbals like so many others. I still to this day have not seen a recorded buddy rich solo I perceive to be as incredible as the one I saw with my own two eyes that night. Maybe it was just my mind playing tricks on me, but I don't care. It was the single best drumming performance in my mind, and it's my favorite musical memory which I'll never forget. That guy was old as dirt, ragged-out looking as could be, and I couldn't for the life of me understand how he could move so fast, in a sweaty blurr of drumsticks. Hope some of you who didn't see buddy in person enjoyed my story...

[Citizen Insane]

I never cared much for Buddy Rich, Although I respect him for what he did for drumming, I could never listen to him solo, To me, it seems like all his solos are just him doing rudiments very fast, then slowing down, and playing them fast again all while doing stick tricks and show-man stuff like that. It's extremely hard, but I don't find it that interesting. I much prefer the more lyrical solos of Tony Williams or Joe Morello. Their solo's could sing! He was also kind of an A-hole, but thats not relevent to his drumming.

[Mook]

Your Surname certainly fits anyway Mr Insane.

[Citizen Insane]

Your Surname certainly fits anyway Mr Insane.

don't get me wrong man, I just think Buddy Rich is an overrated drummer.

[Bernhard]

No. Buddy Rich is NOT overrated....

Bernhard

[aydee]

Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, and Chick Webb, Jo Jones are the people responsible for bringing the drums up front, and giving them the kind of respect enjoy today. These people are also somewhat responsible for a lot of what we play on the drums today, because they defined the instrument.

It also must be said that great drummers are torch bearers, in that they take the legacy from someone & hand it to over to someonene else.

You could like or dislike Buddy's music but under no circumstances could you say Buddy was overrated.

[Steamer]

I'll take listening to Tony or Elvin over Buddy in the soloing department any day of the week which is based on a different musical jazz style and different jazz concepts towards the instrument that perks my ears much more. Just a personal preference thing. Having said that I have tremendous admired respect for what he acomplished for drums and on the drums. My memories of seeing him live were of his incredible ability to setup figures and drive the heck out of a band and basically sound amazing where it's most important to me in the context of the music as a group player which really shined and stood out to me in a Big Band setting. Certainly not overated regardless of personal taste and preferences since he was a true master of his craft and certainly one of the greats if not the greatest of the Big Band drummers that's ever graced our planet IMO.

[Citizen Insane]

No. Buddy Rich is NOT overrated....

Bernhard

I think he is,I think that he is not (as he is claimed to be) the best drummer who ever lived, IMO, Billy Cobham, Elvin Jones, Steve Gadd, Tony Williams, Joe Morello, and Vinnie Colaiuta all SMOKE Buddy Rich.

[mattsmith]

I think he is,I think that he is not (as he is claimed to be) the best drummer who ever lived, IMO, Billy Cobham, Elvin Jones, Steve Gadd, Tony Williams, Joe Morello, and Vinnie Colaiuta all SMOKE Buddy Rich.

I once read where a forum drummer who I respect as a musician, tried to make the case that Buddy Rich was something you outgrew when you got older and more experienced. Of course he was self righteous about a number of things, his precious opinions being but one.

In fairness to your rant, Buddy Rich currently suffers from a fanboy base every bit as fanatical as Bonham's or Travis Barker's. And in trying to talk to them, a person would assume that Rich grew angels wings when he died and merely ascended to heaven. I was once even flamed on the Rich website for having the gall to believe that Rich had been the greatest drummer who ever lived for only 7 years of his illustrious career. And here I was trying Rich covers on the Internet. To say to them that Buddy Rich was anything less than a savior incarnate is considered blasephmy. I also think their total blindness hurts Rich now more than it helps.

Also to your credit you mention the names of great drummers alongside Rich. Personally I like three of those guys better than Rich myself. OK if you're not on the Rich bandwagon, people can at least say, Alright there's something to what he's saying, and at the very least he's not bringing up Jordison, Bitner etc.

But man you screw up when you use a phrase like SMOKE to describe what these other guys would do. SMOKE indicates losing challenges at the most, and the most extreme disrespect at the very least. In both cases neither apply, and demonstrate that you haven't studied Rich enough to know what you're talking about. And don't talk to me about some Johnny Carson show on youtube, or a video of West Side Story #2 vs. West Side Story #76 blah, blah. Have you heard for example all the Pacific Jazz releases and the first 3 RCAs, and I'm not talking about watered down compilations? Frankly man, I was already a little suspicious of where your argument was going when I saw that you typed in that old All he plays on the snare is rudiments argument. If you believe that you might want to go back and listen.

Have you really compared the difference between drummers in those old Tommy Dorsey and Artie Shaw bands, and how they changed when Rich guided them? You seen that Harry James stuff in the mid 60s? I would be willing to bet anything that you haven't, or you wouldn't say something like you just said. See I think it's way too easy to compare the greatness of the other guys you mention to Rich when Rich had to answer to at least a half dozen sylistic periods of music just to stay relevant. This is the pitfall of a 65 year career, back when all of music changed an average of every 8-10 years. Nowadays you can get away with playing the same way for most of your career, all talk of drum evolution aside. This is especially true of American jazz that has changed very little in almost 30 years.

Most important, none of the drummers you mentioned would or would have repeated what you just said because they would have found it an uneducated stance. In fact every one of those guys are on record as idolizing Rich to the point of bowing down. Even Billy Cobham said as much even after Rich had ripped him in public. And if we're gonna take away points for being an A hole in the music business, then Rich is in a very long and pretty fancy line.

So where does that put your opinion, other than your having the right to say whatever you like regardless of the facts?

Just like the Rich is the only God of Drums claim, the devaluing of Buddy Rich as a spiritual center of drumming is just revisionist history, and slamming him is just guys trying to sound cool. And if you think you have to outgrow him enough to flat out dislike him as a player, then I say too bad for you.

[Citizen Insane]

I once read where a forum drummer who I respect as a musician, tried to make the case that Buddy Rich was something you outgrew when you got older and more experienced. Of course he was self righteous about a number of things, his precious opinions being but one.

In fairness to your rant, Buddy Rich currently suffers from a fanboy base every bit as fanatical as Bonham's or Travis Barker's. And in trying to talk to them, a person would assume that Rich grew angels wings when he died and merely ascended to heaven. I was once even flamed on the Rich website for having the gall to believe that Rich had been the greatest drummer who ever lived for only 7 years of his illustrious career. And here I was trying Rich covers on the Internet. To say to them that Buddy Rich was anything less than a savior incarnate is considered blasephmy. I also think their total blindness hurts Rich now more than it helps.

Also to your credit you mention the names of great drummers alongside Rich. Personally I like three of those guys better than Rich myself. OK if you're not on the Rich bandwagon, people can at least say, Alright there's something to what he's saying, and at the very least he's not bringing up Jordison, Bitner etc.

But man you screw up when you use a phrase like SMOKE to describe what these other guys would do. SMOKE indicates losing challenges at the most, and the most extreme disrespect at the very least. In both cases neither apply, and demonstrate that you haven't studied Rich enough to know what you're talking about. And don't talk to me about some Johnny Carson show on youtube, or a video of West Side Story #2 vs. West Side Story #76 blah, blah. Have you heard for example all the Pacific Jazz releases and the first 3 RCAs, and I'm not talking about watered down compilations? Frankly man, I was already a little suspicious of where your argument was going when I saw that you typed in that old All he plays on the snare is rudiments argument. If you believe that you might want to go back and listen.

Have you really compared the difference between drummers in those old Tommy Dorsey and Artie Shaw bands, and how they changed when Rich guided them? You seen that Harry James stuff in the mid 60s? I would be willing to bet anything that you haven't, or you wouldn't say something like you just said. See I think it's way too easy to compare the greatness of the other guys you mention to Rich when Rich had to answer to at least a half dozen sylistic periods of music just to stay relevant. This is the pitfall of a 65 year career, back when all of music changed an average of every 8-10 years. Nowadays you can get away with playing the same way for most of your career, all talk of drum evolution aside. This is especially true of American jazz that has changed very little in almost 30 years.

Most important, none of the drummers you mentioned would or would have repeated what you just said because they would have found it an uneducated stance. In fact every one of those guys are on record as idolizing Rich to the point of bowing down. Even Billy Cobham said as much even after Rich had ripped him in public. And if we're gonna take away points for being an A hole in the music business, then Rich is in a very long and pretty fancy line.

So where does that put your opinion, other than your having the right to say whatever you like regardless of the facts?

Just like the [Rich is the only God of Drums/ claim, the devaluing of Buddy Rich as a spiritual center of drumming is just revisionist history, and slamming him is just guys trying to sound cool. And if you think you have to outgrow him enough to flat out dislike him as a player, then I say too bad for you.

I admit that "smoke" was not a good term, I respect buddy rich, and he has influenced a lot of my favorite drummers. but I simply do not care much for what I've heard of his drumming. My teacher and I watched a video called "The Lost West Side Story Tapes", It was pretty cool. But it didn't blow me away like some of Joe Morello's solos did.I have yet to see something by Buddy Rich that really impresses me. It gets rather tiring having people tell you, that a drummer that you have yet to be impressed by is the "The Greatest Drummer of All time".

I also said that Buddy Rich being an A hole was irrelevant to his drumming, My favorite drummer is Stewart Copeland. But he also seems like an A-hole, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying his drumming. I just have yet to see something I like from Buddy Rich.

What music/videos would you suggest to get me into Buddy Rich?

[edit] Im also not "slamming" Buddy Rich, nor am I trying to look cool, Im not saying things like "He really sucks"or "All his music is terrible" .Im just saying I don't see the hype with him.

[Citizen Insane]

Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich, and Chick Webb, Jo Jones are the people responsible for bringing the drums up front, and giving them the kind of respect enjoy today. These people are also somewhat responsible for a lot of what we play on the drums today, because they defined the instrument.

It also must be said that great drummers are torch bearers, in that they take the legacy from someone & hand it to over to someonene else.

You could like or dislike Buddy's music but under no circumstances could you say Buddy was overrated.

Well whenever I watch a performance of a another great jazz drummer on youtube, theirs always guys who post comments such as "Not as good as Buddy", or "This guy has nothing on Buddy Rich." And I have to say it on my nerves after awhile.
Buddy Rich has such a rabid, and irritating fanbase.

I correct myself,Buddy Rich is NOT overrated overall, but Buddy Rich is overrated among his rabid fanbase.

[mattsmith]

[edit] Im also not "slamming" Buddy Rich, nor am I trying to look cool, Im not saying things like "He really sucks"or "All his music is terrible" .Im just saying I don't see the hype with him.

Yeah man, I get that. I was in my argument trying to show both sides of the spectrum, including fanboys and flamers, and how there is very little straight down the middle objectivity about Rich. When you used the word SMOKE, it just kinda opened a door to initiate that discussion. Thanks also for clarifying.

As to stuff you might like, I prefer his Pacific Jazz output from 1966-71. The New One is often overlooked and terrific, and there is much to enjoy from Mercy, Mercy. In the early days, his output from the Artie Shaw band is pretty great for the time, and I have heard some very good combo music from his days with Jazz at the Philharmonic.

When looking for videos I tend to look for his British TV shows. For some reason he always went above and beyond on those things. I don't know why his TV stuff was always better in the UK, but to me it was.

This stuff from the early 70s is very strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-m8S-ldOM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ma96Ct3Qds&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rm-A6bGhiE

Still, all the old timers will tell you that they have seen little on a video that captured the live thing or his best audio, and I tend to believe that, although he was also before my time.

[Derek]

I was fortunate to catch Buddy live a couple of times and both of them up close in a small setting ( no more than literally several feet from Buddy each time ).
Yeah Matt, it's true, nothing on video does justice to what it was like to see him play in person.

[michael drums]

don't get me wrong man, I just think Buddy Rich is an overrated drummer.

Huh??

Buddy Rich overrated???


That's it!! It's over!!


NOW...I've heard everything!!


Dude...you ARE insane!! :-|

Or just not of this earth!! :-(


Wow!

[michael drums]

Well whenever I watch a performance of a another great jazz drummer on youtube, theirs always guys who post comments such as "Not as good as Buddy", or "This guy has nothing on Buddy Rich." And I have to say it on my nerves after awhile.
Buddy Rich has such a rabid, and irritating fanbase.

I correct myself,Buddy Rich is NOT overrated overall, but Buddy Rich is overrated among his rabid fanbase.


Uhh...

The words Buddy Rich and overrated can NOT possibly be used in the same sentence...unless...the word NOT is inserted right before the word overrated.

I'm guessing you're under 30 years of age, and probably not even ever heard of Bernard "Buddy" Rich? :-|

Right??

Though the answer to your confusion is right in your name.

[aydee]

Hopefully this thread in not moving into that "lets utter some blasphemies and provoke the 'faithful' into convulsions of righteous outrage. "Lets knock a big guy and see if it gets people's knickers in a twist", territory.

Just to clarify, Tony Williams is my all time favorite drummer, and Elvin's genius is something I've always marveled at and he's way up there brushing Tony's shoulder on my mantle too.
But I'll be the first to admit, that great as they were, neither of these two guys had the same power as Buddy (for the lack of a better word) to attract "anyone & everyone", the guy- on -the- street to the magic of the drums.

Buddy's playing is also limited in people's minds by his grandstanding solos. You think Buddy , you think drum solo. People forget his all his incredible work with Dorsey, Sinatra, Artie Shaw, Benny Carter, and a whole lot of his sessions, when they talk about his playing.

On the A hole business, no one likes em, but I secretly admire his utter refusal to accept mediocrity. It is the unfortunate side-effect of being a hardcore uncompromising perfectionist who pushed his band often to breaking point ( broke a few horn players in the process too)

So, love him or hate him, appreciate him/or not, or whatever placard you think you need to hang around his neck, he was a defining chapter in the history of drumming, and took it to a whole new level, whether his solos were boring or not or just a bunch of real fast rudiments or whatever..

Walk up to a guy on a street corner and ask him if he's heard of Elvin or Tony? then ask him if he's heard of Buddy Rich.

...and Buddy wasn't a pop star by any stretch of imagination, he wasn't even a Louis Armstrong, or an Ella, or a Frank Sinatra... He was just a drummer.

At best, one can say that this drummer did move the mountain, but I for one, wasn't impressed.

Thats no more than saying what I'm saying. That I prefer listening to Tony more, man, but he didn't do what Buddy did.

nuff said.

[Citizen Insane]

Uhh...

The words Buddy Rich and overrated can NOT possibly be used in the same sentence...unless...the word NOT is inserted right before the word overrated.

I'm guessing your under 30 years of age, and probably not even ever heard of Bernard "Buddy" Rich? :-|

Right??

Though the answer to your confusion is right in your name.

What would it matter if I was over 30 years of age? OH YEAH! I forgot that only people that are 30 and older can give an opinion of Buddy Rich. And don't insult me saying that I never heard of Buddy Rich, thats very condescending and annoying. This thread isn't called "Lets All agree with each other that Buddy Rich is the best drummer who ever lived". All because I don't share your opinion on Buddy Rich, doesn't give you the right to be a little smartass with me. And why do you think its such a blasphemy that I think Buddy Rich is overrated? When there is a thread about such a large, and honored figure in the history of drumming. Your bound to get mixed opinions. Oh, and thank you for informing me with your wisdom about Buddy Rich, I had no idea his first name was Bernard. ^°^

[Citizen Insane]

Huh??

Buddy Rich overrated???


That's it!! It's over!!


NOW...I've heard everything!!


Dude...you ARE insane!! :-|

Or just not of this earth!! :-(


Wow!

Well man you got to admit that calling Buddy Rich "Versatile" as I heard some Buddy Fans say is kind of overrating him, he was reasonable versatile in the realm of Jazz, but put him in a latin, or heavy metal gig and he would sound quiet awkward. In comparison to Vinnie Colaiuta who would be excellent in all of those situations And I think saying "Buddy Rich could have played any genre he wanted to" is a very weak excuse for his lack of versatality.

[Steamer]

Let me put this discussion into a different light and angle on things so to speak, Put yourself in the shoes of the man in question and count the Buddy Rich Band into "Time Being" as one of any number of excellent Big Band charts and vehicles played and made famous by this master of drumming and in particular "Big Band drumming".Now as you only have a few seconds at this point to prepare yourself for the challenge ahead of you see how you could see YOURSELF fairing and measuring up on delivering the solid goods at the high level Buddy played at in the context of the music and his high level of soloing in front of a packed house. I think that would quickly put everything is perspective and will still see if some here think he was overated. Get my point:)

By the way I saw Buddy several times live and it was always a thrilling exciting sonic display of 5 star drumming and razor sharp Big Band ensemble playing without any debate on the subject in my book.

[Steamer]

Well man you got to admit that calling Buddy Rich "Versatile" as I heard some Buddy Fans say is kind of overrating him, he was reasonable versatile in the realm of Jazz, but put him in a latin, or heavy metal gig and he would sound quiet awkward. In comparison to Vinnie Colaiuta who would be excellent in all of those situations And I think saying "Buddy Rich could have played any genre he wanted to" is a very weak excuse for his lack of versatality.

Doesn't matter he perfected his craft as a Big Band drummer like very few before or after have done so that's all that matters to me in this debate. Put some of your favorites in a Big Band playing that music and at the level Buddy played it at in a Big Band and imagine how they would fair in that situation. Big Band is a very tough and specific chair for a drummer to deliver with authentic conviction. Dig:).

[Class A Drummer]

I havent read the entire thread so i dont know if this has been posted yet.

Supposedly, this >> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=w6yekXsbUfc is Buddy Rich's last taped show in 1987. He not only plays a fantastic show, but he also sings, yes he sings!

[Gretschman1]

I too am a great fan of Buddy Rich. I played in Jazz band in college and was able to play a couple of his great swing tunes. Someone has said that he not only is the greatest drummer who ever lived but he mastered his instrument to a level that no musician of any kind could claim the same degree of proficiency. After listening to his solos and music for the last 35 years of my life I would not disagree.

[bizz]

Wow I just sat down and read this entire thread and I have to say its a good one. To me what made Buddy great wasnt his solos or technique which BTW are amazing. In my eyes what was best about him was the way he drove the band. The guy was a machine.

Some drummers are like pied pipers, they play their little magical tune on the drums and get the band to follow them. Guys like Buddy and Bonham go up punch the the band in the face and say "your coming with me" You can tell the moment the song kicks off they are in charge.

I got to see Buddy right about the time I started playing a few years before he died. My Dad took me to see him and I had heard of him but had know idea what I was in for. Being about 10 or 11 years old in my eyes Jazz was a lesser form of music than the Ozzy and Maiden I was listening to at the time. I remember I didnt really want to go, I though it would be boring. Big Band music was for old farts my Dad just said "trust me kid, you will love it".

When the band came out and Buddy kicked off that first tune my jaw hit the floor. It was so loud and so powerful I didnt know jazz could be so intense. And Buddy being in his late 60's looked like a mad man possesed by some evil drumming demon. What struck me most about that night was not his drum solo but the way commanded the band. He was the force behind the music. That was the single most important event in my drumming life. It was at that moment my persona was born. Not with the chops, or technique. But that attitude that makes every person in that band know that once the song starts I'm in charge.

In my eyes Buddy is the best

[Steamer]

Sorry you missed the amazing experience of witnessing him live in concert with his band at his prime {glad I did!} and obviously my point of putting yourself in his musical shoes to put it all into proper perspective. I'm done with wasting any more on this discussion. Keep listening and hope you "get it" down the road. Later...

[princejay]

Let's just say that if Buddy Rich didn't exist, you wouldn't hear alot of the things you hear on drums today. He did alot for this group of musicians

[Butch Axsmith]

I was with the ' Tommy Dorsey Band ' after Buddy
and ' Nobody Replaced ' him //// ever ////
Tommy Dorsey did like Louie Bellson ....
Butch Axsmith

[michael drums]

No contest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwJAAlXomVk

Absolutely, positively!!


Though, GK had/has LOTS of company...PERIOD!


;-)

[Moon_Type_Drummer]

the greatest XXXXXXXXXXXXXXx thing about being a drummer is YOUR ABILITY TO DRIVE THE REST OF THE BAND. to get out there and bring your kit out from behind the guitar and bass is probably the best feeling in the world, because in many circumstances, the crowd absolutly loves it.
buddy did that. IN MY OPINION, buddy is definatley one of the best drummers who ever lived, not because of his versatility or his skill, but his ability to drive the band, and the intensity with which he played.

[michael drums]

"Another like him is not even a possibility." - Gene Krupa

"The man was a genius. No one will ever equal him." - Joe Morello

"Truly, we will not see his like again." - Neil Peart

"Who will fill his shoes? No one can." - Jim Chapin

'nuff said.

[OOLILISSIMA]

I've just got back to drumming after a 37-year break, during which, almost whenever I've heard music, I've used my fingers to tap on tables, tin lids, car roofs, windows... the list goes on forever. I'm pleasantly surprised how quickly it is all coming back, and how the 37 years' practice has improved me. Anyway, to the point...

One thing I have picked up straightaway is the Buddy Rich stick trick, so it seems it cannot be the mark of a genius if someone as rusty as I am can do it.. I'm doing single-stroke only so far, but I'm gaining confidence that it'll be just the start.

The key was to think of ways round my initial difficulties, rather than just keep banging away. I found it impossible with the right stick travelling down onto the left one. Then I decided change to left-stick-downwards and I got it straightaway - in both traditional and matched grips. Hopefully, I will be able to do it right-stick-downwards when I really get the feel for what I'm doing.

Now I want to become a competent music-reading player. No doubt that'll take me a bit longer.

[aydee]

"Another like him is not even a possibility." - Gene Krupa

"The man was a genius. No one will ever equal him." - Joe Morello

"Truly, we will not see his like again." - Neil Peart

"Who will fill his shoes? No one can." - Jim Chapin


..is what they said about Carl Lewis and Mark Spitz. Look what happened.

; )

[michael drums]

..is what they said about Carl Lewis and Mark Spitz. Look what happened.

; )


Musicians and athletes.


Apples and oranges.


;-)

[Vipercussionist]

Bernard "Buddy" Rich the world's best drummer was born on 9.30.1917.

Happy birthday Buddy!!

We still listen intently to your awesome drumming prowess.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

[michael drums]

Bernard "Buddy" Rich the world's best drummer was born on 9.30.1917.

Happy birthday Buddy!!

We still listen intently to your awesome drumming prowess.
.
.
.

__________________
Most respect the badge, but all fear the drum.

Absolutely, Vc! You are correct, sir.

He woulda' been 91 years young, today!

[chungiemunchin]

Well man you got to admit that calling Buddy Rich "Versatile" as I heard some Buddy Fans say is kind of overrating him, he was reasonable versatile in the realm of Jazz, but put him in a latin, or heavy metal gig and he would sound quiet awkward. In comparison to Vinnie Colaiuta who would be excellent in all of those situations And I think saying "Buddy Rich could have played any genre he wanted to" is a very weak excuse for his lack of versatality.

There are very few musicians about which it could be said that there is no way you could overrate them based upon the extraordinary level which they have attained. Buddy is among that few. Sorry but the words have not been invented to describe his achievement. This coming from someone who isn't a BR fanatic but who recognizes total genius when presented with it.

[matthew]

is this true?

from wikipedia "He received no formal drum instruction, and went so far as to claim that instruction would only degrade his musical talent. He also never admitted to practicing, claiming to play the drums only during performances."

if i only played live, i would suck so hard.... i work hard at home and only make progress because of it.

[Therma lobsterdore]

Yep so the legend goes man, though I'm sure that he must have spent hours practicing on his own when he was very young, he must have, but as soon as he started getting hired as a drummer (which happened when he was quite young) he spent all his time drumming pretty much, so there was no need to practice anymore. Buddy was not only gifted, but was also very lucky to be in the situation where he could drum all the time from an early age.

[BuddyBeaufordGaddNeil]

Buddy is the best!! Best drummer ever

[Mike Machine]

Well... Im at work ( a Music Shop) ...I just read this entire thread and have to say this... if you spent as much time thinking/talking about Buddy as you do... practising to be the best YOU can be... Buddy may have the same opinions of you. Good and Bad...in the end its an external opinion of what the man did/and was truly capable of... I just don't see anyone as "the best" in comparison to others... only the BEST they can be with themselves. This for me is the reality of being a WFD Champion... I'm not "the best" in comparison to you or whomever... only the best I can be!!!

I love buddy's style/approach to the kit... but he's night/day to me... so I have to respect where he went/took the drum kit.

Mike

[Fox622003]

is this true?

from wikipedia "He received no formal drum instruction, and went so far as to claim that instruction would only degrade his musical talent. He also never admitted to practicing, claiming to play the drums only during performances."

if i only played live, i would suck so hard.... i work hard at home and only make progress because of it.

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

[Crazy8s]

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

You've insulted EVERY drummer that has come since him because EVERY drummer has been directly influenced by Buddy Rich whether they realize it or not.

What some perceive as 'ego' was supreme confidence in himself as reflected in his superhuman drive to perform at a level nobody else could. He demanded competency from the musicians he hired the same way any business owner would demand the best from their employees. You called him a 'poor human being', but a 'poor human being' wouldn't create a tremendous adoration and excitement for music like Buddy and his sidemen created.

A 'poor human being' would detract from, or deride those who aimed to enlighten others to the joys of music, which is exactly what you are doing Fox. As far as 'his drumming is ancient history to me.' goes, I suggest you put up or shut up. If you are as hawt sheet as you think you are, this should be easy to prove how much better you are at drums than Buddy was. I don't expect you will be able to do that.

[con struct]

Buddy Rich was an egomaniac, a poor human being, and personally, his drumming is ancient history to me. Sure, he can't had played when we wasn't doing shows; he hated drumming, why would he do it in his spare time? Come on...


Fox.

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

[Steamer]

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

Yes indeed Jay...and the outrageous comment that Buddy hated the drums and drumming. What? Hello?

Buddy LOVED the drums and you can HEAR IT in every note he played on the instrument by himself or with the band...love or leave it but cut the crap comments please and forget the person and FOCUS on the player.

Anyone who thinks he brought nothing to the table and is not worth a can of beans can imagine themselves sitting on his throne setting up and playing all the figures and tempo changes etc...etc... with the band on this very high level of musical performance on this concert live recording. By the way this IS the film footage from Ronnie Scott's of "Time Being" from the "Rich in London" album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-m8S-ldOM&playnext=1&videos=4n7Lbkk5lEc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds-m8S-ldOM&playnext=1&videos=4n7Lbkk5lEc

Any takers? Fox perhaps?

Later........

[aydee]

...

Ya, I never got this 'judging Buddy as a human being' thing that one sees a lot of on forums.
Assuming he was a rotten to core human being, would his contribution to drumming history or indeed the evolution of drum playing be any less?

Does the fact that Einstein was a lousy dad who had his son institutionalized and never visited him ever again, make him less of a genius?

We can only judge him as a drummer, because thats what he had to say to the world.
As for his rants and the 'bus rides from hell' recordings, all I hear is a man who has set the bar very high for himself, and doing everything in his power to reach a higher plateau of perfection.

...

[Lex]

Honeslty, Buddy Rich just doesn't do it for me. I don't get the adoration he gets from the entire drumming community. I've seen him play on videos, and what I see is very good drumming indeed. But nothing from his playing that actually stands out to me. Note, I'm not bashing Buddy like Fox does. I understand he was a very good drummer. I just don't seem to get what actually makes him stand out from pretty much every other drummer out there, ever. Maybe the fact that he is self-thought?

[mattsmith]

Fox622003, when Jay Norem/ con struct/ and I agree on something then hell has truly frozen over. Your post just revolutionized Biblical climate change. Congratulations.

Bottom line-Buddy Rich suffers from an army of crazed hero worshippers who do little to forward his legacy and only worsen this uneducated historical revision of who he actually was. I truly believe that is why you see some of this ignorant backlash and that's unfortunate.

But you guys who pretend to know him then try to pick apart his playing are living in a dream world.

When I read someone slam his playing or make some tragically hip crack about how they thought he was the greatest than outgrew all that, all that makes me think is how much you still have to learn, alongside silence is golden. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say the same to any pro drummer here who spouts that nonsense too, and will accuse you of bandwagon jumping, because it's a silly discussion and you know it.

I also totally agree with Aydee and this ego as indictment stuff. The only people who judge artistic ego this harshly are people who don't play very much and have no business talking about it in these terms, plain and simple. Fact is Rich would only be one in a line 1000 miles longer than the nice guy line where you find Louie Bellson and a couple of others.

Besides not a one of you knew him to make these comments anyway, and only do so to impress on a drum forum. Great artists are complex people and Rich was one of the most complex of all. When my dad was young Rich once got mad and fired him over nothing then turned around and paid his university tuition for a semester.

I think that when engaging in these kinds of discussions it's best to stay out of deep water when you don't know how to swim. Fox, as I have told you before your own playing has a long way to go before making these kinds of comments.

Ancient history? Well if I were you I would become an archeologist and find Rich's left hand as soon as possible because it would do your playing wonders.

There's an expression in the US about being able to play as cute as you talk. Words to live by man. Yeah anyone can have opinions///playing aside. But there's also a big talk line, and you just crossed it.

[Boomka]

...We can only judge him as a drummer, because thats what he had to say to the world.

Let me get this straight; if someone is good at something, we can't make moral judgments about their behaviour outside of the thing they do well? I mean, their acts take place "in the world" as much as whatever it is they're good at.

Not sure I can buy that.

BTW, I think Buddy was the bee's knees, in spite of never having a thing for him like some other guys I came up with. And I can't speak to his personality outside of the usual outsider's perspective. I'm just asking a general question here.

I remember Buddy had me at about 5:33 of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eIRjtks0y0&feature=related

I still can't play those shuffled flams quite like that. Bugger.

[aydee]

Let me get this straight; if someone is good at something, we can't make moral judgments about their behaviour outside of the thing they do well? I mean, their acts take place "in the world" as much as whatever it is they're good at. Not sure I can buy that.

You could, but that would be out of context and judgmental IMO.. ; )
Its the fallibility of the human condition that makes us want to believe that anyone who has done anything great in this world would/should automatically be a great guy.
And if in our opinion he didn't quite measure up to our moral benchmark, well, then his life work couldn't be all THAT great.

Secondly, I'm inclined to take less than half of what the media makes of anybody as gospel. I happen to be close to the Jaco Pastorius' family, and I do know that Jaco was another victim of one-sided stories that became mythic and dont reveal the real person in the least.

Third, I generalize but I do believe that all so called geniuses are essentially flawed and somewhat unbalanced people. To constantly ask so much of themselves usually means somethings got to give somewhere.

History is littered with examples.

...

[larryace]

Could Buddy read? I can never wrap my head around how he hits all the band hits, the stabs, everything. I've never seen him reading from a chart in any of the videos I've seen. Does anybody know for sure if he just internalized all those big band charts or did he read them early on and memorize them? He's amazing. He had the most even sounding hand technique I ever heard. He gives us all a mark to strive for.

[Deltadrummer]

Secondly, I'm inclined to take less than half of what the media makes of anybody as gospel. I happen to be close to the Jaco Pastorius' family, and I do known that Jaco was another victim of one-sided stories that became mythic and don't reveal the real person in the least.


...

I hear ya Abe. I could imagine that even in an internet forum folks would quabble about what has actually been said. :P

If anybody has ever been quoted in a newspaper, you will come to ask, "did I say that?" Folks are going to use the fodder for their own reward. And once you're talking about mass culture and a time line like Buddy or Jaco, legend and mythology rules. By the way, you know, Michael Jackson slept with snakes.

I think that you are even clearer when stating that you cannot base an understanding of ones artistic or intellectual capacity on some other flaw or character trait that one may or may not like.

[mattsmith]

I hear ya Abe. I could imagine that even in an internet forum folks would quabble about what has actually been said. :P

If anybody has ever been quoted in a newspaper, you will come to ask, "did I say that?" Folks are going to use the fodder for their own reward. And once you're talking about mass culture and a time line like Buddy or Jaco, mythology rules. You know, Michael Jackson slept with snakes. by the way.

I think that you are even clearer when stating that you cannot base an understanding of ones artistic or intellectual capacity on some other flaw or character trait that one may or may not like.
A few years ago Art Verdi gave me a home made DVD that had 10 years of Buddy Rich appearences on that old Johnny Carson Show. At first glance you could watch one of those shows and think Geez he's kind of a jerk. But then I watched another, then another, then another and you know what? 90% of that stuff was a routine that had been worked out between Rich and Carson to where both guys knew their role in the gimmick and responded accordingly. It was vaudeville and that's where Rich came from. And Rich's vaudeville gimmick was being a wise guy. Now does that mean it was entirely an act? No. But I just think that sometimes people talk very matter of factly about things they have no business discussing because they really don't get it.

As for the bus tapes, I've never talked to a pro musician who had the inside track about that who didn't think the guys in that particular Rich band were far worse jerks than Rich ever was. In fact people still talk about that trombone player who started it all, and he's also a known jerk in Australia now.

Story was he egged Rich on for both those sets while the band was playing and disrupted the performance onstage. Then others in the band started laughing and playing along too. The trombone player was mostly mad that Rich wasn't going to record his arrangement of a tune called Manhattan, although Rich still played it almost every night on gigs. Now if anyone would like to google that chart, you can hear the downloads for yourself. It just wasn't up to recording standards and Rich was right to refuse it. Let's also remember this was the same guy who recorded the bus rant. So in other words, an overrated jerk poked sticks into the cage of a volatile personality for 2 straight sets then recorded it for posterity because he didn't get his tune recorded. The whole thing was a setup from the get go.

Want to judge?

What would have been Tony Williams' reaction to that setup?

Elvin?

Copeland?

Weckl?

And for those who want to pretend they're psychologists and blabber on about how no one deserves etc, etc, I only ask why anyone stayed on that bus if they weren't part of some scheme? Why didn't the aggrieved parties just quit? After all everyone knows those big bands didn't pay all that much. Besides you're supposed to be pros. Goofing up gigs on purpose is the worst thing a pro can do and is deserving of the most extreme consequences.

[Fox622003]

Buddy LOVED the drums and you can HEAR IT in every note he played on the instrument by himself or with the band...love or leave it but cut the crap comments please and forget the person and FOCUS on the player.

That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...
As someone else said, Buddy was a nice drummer, that played nicely, but he's constantly mentioned as the best by too many people. It's similar to how I feel about Ian Paice, who at least doesn't go around constantly saying to everyone how good he is.


Fox.

[Fox622003]

Hands down this gets my vote for the stupidest post of the year, and we've still got four months to go.

Yeah, it wasn't a very thought out comment. It's true that morals shouldn't get in the way of examining someone's playing. But personally, his playing never impressed me enough for all the hype he's got; and mentioning the fact that everytime you see him, he acts like such a self-important jerk, just seemed to reinforce the question of why is he so revered.

However, to be completely fair, I'm pretty sure your comment about playing behind and ahead of the beat being a myth, a false concept, gets to take the gold home this year ;) .

Fox.

[Steamer]

That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...
As someone else said, Buddy was a nice drummer, that played nicely, but he's constantly mentioned as the best by too many people. It's similar to how I feel about Ian Paice, who at least doesn't go around constantly saying to everyone how good he is.


Fox.

I'll just add that I admire many of the greats since i'm no singular Buddy fanboy by any stretch but a seasoned pro jazz veteran who always gives those who deserve it credit for what they brought to the table for the music and instrument with the BS talk around them or their personal lives in a very distant 3rd on the list. Even another one of my all time favorites Jack Dejohnette in an interview said if you want to hear one of the truly great examples of Big Band drumming and how to play and interpret an arrangement as a drummer listen to Buddy on West Side Story was his advice...works for me too.

The clips I recently provided are all the proof needed what he left behind as a a Big Band drummer and with those who use their ears, emotions and intelligence, cutting all the other bias BS issues out of the mix, speaks for itself in my view Fox.

Like I say for those who think it was a piece of cake to set up a large band like Buddy did show us what you have to compare for me and the rest of the musical community to judge on its on individual merits. Actions speak much louder than all the "talk" in the world on a real live stage situation in front of folks or what can be captured by recorded history....... in the end.

[GetAgrippa]

I have to admit I'm jaded and love Buddy! He was inspiring. But this about drumming "Evolution". It is all relative. Newton explained gravitation as mass attraction and Einstein as a bend in space-time. Both brilliant and made an outstanding contribution for their day. It is believed Newton probably had a high I.Q. than Einstein. Anyways I would love to clone Buddy's left arm and attach it my body. hee,hee.Both on second thought.

[larryace]

If there ever was a drummer who's beyond reproach, it's got to be Buddy Rich first, then it's up for grabs.

[GetAgrippa]

I loved watching Buddy on Johnny Carson. Johnny was a drummer at heart and you could tell he really admired and liked Buddy. They were hilarious as I recollect. I took Jiujitsu in high school because I saw Rich was into martial arts and I though it might help my drumming. No correlation I should say.

[Deltadrummer]

A few years ago Art Verdi gave me a home made DVD that had 10 years of Buddy Rich appearences on that old Johnny Carson Show. At first glance you could watch one of those shows and think Geez he's kind of a jerk. But then I watched another, then another, then another and you know what? 90% of that stuff was a routine that had been worked out between Rich and Carson to where both guys knew their role in the gimmick and responded accordingly. It was vaudeville and that's where Rich came from. And Rich's vaudeville gimmick was being a wise guy.

.

Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Great story Matt about the trombomist. Thanks for sharing that.

[aydee]

..

You know when someone says something like " I dont get whats so great about Picasso. I mean, c'mon... he cant even draw a face right", there is no real answer to that.

An opinion about the arts is something, so completely yours ( and valid ) , that it cannot be contradicted.

But a suggestion - here's a good question to ask oneself very quietly before making sweeping statements " Am I missing something"? If the answer to that is no, they bang away, by all means.

...

[aydee]

Yeah, he had his schtick. I also stayed up late to watch him and Johnny and sometimes Ed. It was the link you had the pro world of drumming before youtube came along.

Me too, Ken! I remember having to wait impatiently for him to go through all his other guests till Buddy would come on. I'd love their exchanges and you are right, I think they were very good friends and had a schtick going on all those episodes, like an Abbott & Costello.
Buddy had also given Johnny some lessons, I believe.

Yea, that was pre-utube euphoria!

I think the residual impression of Buddy in the public eye comes mostly from those shows and from the 'bus tapes' that have circulated 'wildly' amongst the musician communities.

Not a lot to go on IMPO.

...

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

You are a wise man Aydee.

Buddy.....I am truely staggered......honestly!

Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.

Closed book? Perhaps, but it is what it is.

Be careful guys.....no one says we all have to agree. If Fox doesn't like, he doesn't like....accept it and move on gracefully. I don't agree with Fox's summation (it's BUDDY for christ sake, I fail to see how anybody can miss the good), but I'll support his right NOT to like anybody.

[aydee]

Picasso, I'm just not into. That's not to say I don't understand (I'm unwilling to understand....maybe), but I truely don't like. And I see no reason to "study and absorb" him from now until kingdom come, until I do. No one except me will change my mind on that fact........sorry.
.

Pack your bags, PFG, you n' me are going to Barcelona for some art therapy.

...

[Pollyanna]

Not quite the same, PFOG. If you're an artist then it's fair to assume that you are very keen on art. If you are an artist who doesn't like Picasso, you might want to explore what people see in his work because it might open up some enjoyable and useful things to explore.

If you're not an artist and have only a cursory interest in art, who cares? You like what you like, full stop. Learning more about art might enrich your life, but it's no biggie. BTW, Picasso is my fave artist, daylight second :)

Same with the Buddy thing. If you're a drummer, there may be things to be gained from working out what others see in him. Agree that it's a personal choice whether to check out those aspects of playing or to limit your options. After all, there are many other drummers and aspects of drumming to explore.

For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Pack your bags, PFG, you n' me are going to Barcelona for some art therapy.

...

LOL, Aydee.

My friend, I'm sure you are familar with the old saying "akin to feeding caviar to swine"?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Polly.......ok, you make (yet another) reasonable point. Now kindly, sod off!! :-)

Clearly I'm no match for the wiles of "AD"' and Poll.......a most formidable unison!

Well played. I'll bid a hasty retreat......(to pack my bags for wamer climes.......Barcelona, is it Aydee?)

But, fwiw, this " For me, anyone who plays with Buddy's passion and skill is worth listening to" works for me...........I'm off to peruse Mrs Pocket's art books. :-)

[aydee]

LOL, Aydee.

My friend, I'm sure you are familar with the old saying "akin to feeding caviar to swine"?

The phrase is "pearls before swine" but I do know what you mean ; )

Have you looked at his blue period? Thats before all the cubist abstractions set in he got into all that funky distortion and poly rhythmic 3D multi dimensional effect that he was eventually known for.

He was quite a different artist then. ( Some of my favorite works by him are actually sketches that his did during that time.. very different but you can sort of see where he was going.. )

Yea, Barcelona would be great. I've never been there. Its the most artistic city in the world! ( I know you're thinking Florence or Paris, but naw... overrated, both places. Everything is in museums....doesn't count ) In Barcelona, there's art & music screaming at you form every corner. The architecture, the paintings, sculpture, flamenco guitars, gypsy music everywhere. Plus they've got the Guernica.

Lets make a plan. what say?

Polly, your turn, Lets double team him.

...

PS- I like the point you make about it being enjoyable to listen to stuff thats made up of passion and skill.

...

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Have you looked at his blue period?


Brilliant!! That's just how I feel when I see his work.......great art to slash your wrists to, perhaps. :-)

I've not been there either, it's always appealed though, as it's NOT the place in Spain where I'm expected to run with the bulls. But during this bleak Melbourne winter, I could be easily persuaded to board a plane for an educational trip to sunny Spain on a quest for art discovery........sound good? 'Cos really it's just a ploy to seat myself in a 'bull free' bar in warm weather.

[mattsmith]

Yeah, it wasn't a very thought out comment. It's true that morals shouldn't get in the way of examining someone's playing. But personally, his playing never impressed me enough for all the hype he's got; and mentioning the fact that everytime you see him, he acts like such a self-important jerk, just seemed to reinforce the question of why is he so revered.

However, to be completely fair, I'm pretty sure your comment about playing behind and ahead of the beat being a myth, a false concept, gets to take the gold home this year ;) .

Fox.

See to me this is a totally acceptable post, although I don't agree with all of it. I think had you started with this tone everything would have been cool.


That's exactly what I said, perhaps you didn't get the sarcasm.
Someone quated Buddy as saying something like he never played outside of the performances, and never practised. As someone who loves the instrument, how could he not play outside performances? So, he just watched TV and picked up girls? Only developed techniques live? Come on...

Fox.
Rich played for money almost every day of his life for over 60 years. You have to consider the context. Guys from his era played gigs every single day. They didn't play a 4 month tour, take a year off then go out again. With that lifestyle, why would there be a need to play outside of performances?

I'm also with Stan/ he wasn't my favorite either/I'm Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, DeJohnette, Bonham, Blakey, Morello/ although he's certainly the next guy on my own favorite meter. All my favorites are older or dead guys, although I also really like Blade, Carter Beauford and Nasheet Waits now. But whether he's your maxim hero or not, he's required listening and he's deserving of the highest end respect. I can also say without a doubt that learning a lot of his music made me a much better drummer. Some of you who make these sweeping generalizations should try that sometime. It might alter your perspective.

I think where Rich separated himself from others was in his way of mastering the intense technical concepts musically while still remaining exciting both live and on recordings. Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there.

He was also the pioneer of big band outlining and to me set the bar for that style. Even a hero like Louie Bellson said it. So that's good enough for me.

I sort of laugh when I hear this continual stuff about the technical evolution of drumming because I just don't believe it. All I honestly hear now are technical variations on the Rich concept. And I think it's fair to say that I've heard my share of technical drumming. IMO Rich was the technical bar, and I'm not buying the he couldn't do today's odd rhythm, polyrhythm etc, etc. Anyone who doesn't think Rich couldn't have convincingly adapted to Dream Theater, or the Virgil Donati things is delusional.

That also includes the technical issues that surround many of the great metal guys I have a lot of respect for. To say Rich couldn't have done that had he decided to doesn't feel right to me. You want to hear the first blast beat? Go to the last drum solo of Channel One Suite from the Mercy Mercy album. That was one bass drum without any technical enhancement played at 3:00 in the morning in a Las Vegas casino after he had already played three shows earlier that night. That thing takes off like the frickin space shuttle. Seriously is there really anyone on the planet with that kind of energy in the tank now?

What further confounds me is how these same people who make technical assesments about Rich's playing are the exact same guys who claim on forums that they don't like so much technique. I always found that fascinating.

I think when considering Rich now it's a taste of the month issue. You see this with guys my age in jazz now who have adopted this busy hybrid version of Jack DeJohnette's playing where the music is sort of enveloped instead of pushed along and where bar lines are blurred not always for artistic purposes but to show to the other guys your age the hipness involved with you knowing how to do that, and are also the same people that say you're playing is boxy when you dare locate beat 1. These are the same guys who sit around the Pepsi machine in music school lounges deciding who does or does not get it. And playing like that sounds cool a lot of the time, but to say the other stuff is some inferior version of what's older is incorrect in my view.

I think Rich's legacy suffers from some of that.

[Boomka]

The laws of Universe revealed!

A Buddy debate and out come all the king's horses and all the king's men and even the king's lady.

Fantastic.

[Pollyanna]

Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there.

Yes. I can't explain the hows and whys but you know it when you hear it. Buddy's playing was electric and sometimes astonishing for its sheer intensity. I am sure that intensity is a direct reflection of his personality, warts and all. It was very honest and straightforward musical expression.

It also suggests a spontaneous, generous spirit. When he performed, he gave everything he had. This is not the kind of person who would mime a one hour show and slink away :)


A Buddy debate and out come all the king's horses and all the king's men and even the king's lady.

There was Buddy AND Picasso ... Boomka, I had no choice!

PFOG gave in so quickly that I now feel a little cheated ... I had the scent of blood and my prey ducked down a rabbit hole :)

[Deltadrummer]

yes, and that energy did not dwindle with age or heart attack. This is my favorite Buddy chart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBwigXsYA3I

I'd like to say its West Side Story or Time Being, which Stan turned me onto a while back, really cool chart. But I love, Love for Sale.

[JPW]

I'm also with Stan/ he wasn't my favorite either/I'm Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, DeJohnette, Bonham, Blakey, Morello/ although he's certainly the next guy on my own favorite meter. ...

I think where Rich separated himself from others was in his way of mastering the intense technical concepts musically while still remaining exciting both live and on recordings. Believe it or not intensity is a wholly musical concept, and playing like he did while forwarding that kind of energy is a very special thing. Yeah you hear guys play with a lot of chops, but that broad electrical intensity just isn't there. ...


Nice point about intensity Matt. That is my favourite aspect of drumming these days. And that's propably the only part I like from Buddy Rich. But still to me Williams does it even better and it's not about the polyrhythms and the notey stuff. It's the sense of dark force of anxiety landing from the dark depths from his soul that I really enjoy. That's the main thing I look for in a drummer these days. How does he make me feel when I listen to him? How does he direct that energy to the band, how does the band respond to it? Really hard concept to talk about especially on an internet forum... This is the sort of stuff that is really hard to teach to anyone. Anyone can have chops because that's teachable and only takes time and dedication but how do you teach someone to put yourself in such metal state that these guys (Rich & Williams) goes through when they play? The absolute best compliment I have ever gotten for my own playing was this older horn player who said to me that it's really rare to see a drummer that is so emotionally invested. I think Buddy is a bit lacking on the emotional side of things (for me) but the intensity sure is there.

[jamest]

There's no doubt in my view that buddy rich was one of the absolute greatest there will ever be. I've been going back over the rudiments in his book recently, just great!
__________________

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!"

http://www.excellent-offers.com/gravy1.jpg

[markthedrum]

I rarely throw genius out, but I think Buddy was genius. I know people will come out with Tony Williams, Elvin Jones etc... But for innovation on technique and just leaving drummers jawless til his death bed, like for instance, his left hand technique is being admired and loved to this day.

What do we think of his grandson Nick?

[Hercules]

What an awesome and inspiring drummer.

I loved the sonic boom he elicited from his toms - the crisp crack he got from the snare - the ultra bright cymbal ring - he had the touch and technique without peer in his time.

It's easy in this age to say this or that drummer today is as good - and if they are it's because it was pioneered by Mr Rich.

I would like to see a poll from the drummers that we all vote as the top 100 - who do they think was the best ever - I think we already know the answer.

The Grand Master Buddy Rich - what more need be said?

[aydee]

...

Stumbled upon this little beauty- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ5eGEest0g&feature=player_embedded

- This is one of two surviving sound films of Charlie Parker playing (and certainly the longest; the other is only 52 seconds long). Until recently, this film was a rumor, and only still photos of it existed.

Watch Bird's amused expression as he watches Hawkins solo, and also how he cuts off the older Tenor man's solo. Although the musicians are filmed playing against tracks recorded earlier, it's still a fascinating and rare look at Bird on film, and a young Buddy in a quartet format. Sweet!

1. Ballad (Hawkins, Bird, Jones, Brown, Rich)

2. Celebrity (Bird, Jones, Brown, Rich)

Personnel:
Charlie Parker (as)
Coleman Hawkins (ts)
Hank Jones (p)
Ray Brown (b)
Buddy Rich (d)

...

[mattsmith]

Here's a great Buddy Rich video with tap dancer Eleanor Powell, when he was still with Tommy Dorsey. It's from the movie Ship Ahoy. Rich is seen at the beginning and the end. Some pretty remarkable stick tosses including one at the end that bounces perfectly off the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY9ty4Ib4lQ&feature=share

[KirbyM]

I am always excited to show the percussion section at school videos of Buddy Rich. The kids are captivated by the man just like I have always been. I met Buddy when I was 17. It was without a doubt, the most memorable night of my life.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Check the singles out at about 30 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=T7AW4NDnRE0

[scorch whammin]

Check the singles out at about 30 seconds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=T7AW4NDnRE0

That's a great clip!..and of course fantastic drumming by Buddy!