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RobertM
10-03-2010, 09:10 AM
Do long tube-style lugs on toms really help achieve, increase, and/or maintain high tunings?

I just read a blurb via Brady's Web site that states they use their full-length tube lugs, machines out of solid brass, on bebop kit setups to accommodate for high bebop tunings.

However, many frequently used kits for jazz--like Pearl Masters, Yamaha Maple Custom, Gretsch Custom, Craviotto--do not use full-length tube lugs or any kind of hi-tension lug (a la Yamaha's RC; and Craviotto's tube lug is of the small, short 1.5" kind).

Is this the logic behind GMS Grand Master kits, which have their custom full-length brass lug? Or the old Noble & Cooley Star Series kits, which used the SS series long lug that you still find on the 7x14 SS N&C snares?

Just wondering what the full scoop is about full-length tube or tube-style (in the case of GMS) lugs...(and I had someone tell me recently that GMS Grand Master lug is not "hi-tension" like the Recording Customs)...

Bo Eder
10-03-2010, 09:55 AM
I think it's mainly a fashion statement. If you were to record two kits, one with long tube lugs and one without, and asked me to tell you if there was a difference, I couldn't do it.

I like the look of the hi-tension lug as on the Yamaha Recording Customs, but straight tube lugs on a kit just gives me something more to worry about when I bang the drum around in transit. Drums gets moved around alot, and I would cry if that beautiful brass tube lug that spanned the length of my bass drum was bent by someone picking up the drum and walking into something to bang on the tube.

harryconway
10-03-2010, 10:40 AM
I think it's mainly a fashion statement. If you were to record two kits, one with long tube lugs and one without, and asked me to tell you if there was a difference, I couldn't do it.
I agree. When you start to need lab equipment rather than the human ear to measure minute sonic and/or physical properties of build characteristics ... are we playing drums or building a spacecraft?

I like the look of the hi-tension lug as on the Yamaha Recording Customs,
I do too, and looking at the 12 and 13 inch rack toms of my RC's, the high tension lug is held onto the shell by 2 screws. If it was a split lug design .... chances are ... there would be 2 more screw holes per every verticle. When you get into the 14x14, there are 3 screws holding the long lug. My Ludwig, with it's split lug design, 4 holes per verticle. Less holes drilled into a shell .... one would think .... would always be a good thing. Certainly, the manufacture would agree. Less holes drilled means less man hours used. But again, can we hear the difference, probably not.

keep it simple
10-03-2010, 10:44 AM
There are a few misconceptions about lug design, especially in straight engineering terms. First off, tuning a tom to bebop levels doesn't require a great deal of tension, & certainly nothing that just about any lug can withstand. It's more of a shell consideration IMO. I can see a benefit in distributing the load by using tube lugs that span the full depth of the drum. This transfers the majority of the strain from the shell and places it as a tensile load between the batter & reso hoop. The only time I could imagine a strain issue of any significance is with super high tuning of thick heads, with a small number of lugs around the shell, on a very thin shell, using ultra low mass, small footprint, single attachment point lugs. The issue with full shell depth tube lugs is the mass you're hanging off the shell. A sure resonance killer on an ultra thin shell IMO, on a thicker shell, I think the difference would be minimal.

There is a general disagreement on this forum about the real world differences in shell design, & the contribution to overall sound made by shell resonance. Yes, it's way over hyped by the manufacturers, but It's still a worthwhile feature differentiation with a noticeable affect on the resultant sound IMO. Most here would not agree with me.

eamesuser
10-03-2010, 10:09 PM
I agree with KIS.If you notice Ludwig started offering long lugs on their Marching Drums and Premier did it for many years,both companies have been a big supplier for marching bands for years and I agree that when you get into super High tensions that more strain is subjected to the lug because you don't have the lug pulling upwards on the shell like you do on single ended lugs.

Bo Eder
10-04-2010, 06:24 AM
Hold on there. Are we talking about tube lugs that run the length of the drum, making contact with the shell at the two holder points, or are we talking about shell length lug casings, a la Yamaha Recording Customs?

RobertM
10-04-2010, 08:19 AM
Hold on there. Are we talking about tube lugs that run the length of the drum, making contact with the shell at the two holder points, or are we talking about shell length lug casings, a la Yamaha Recording Customs?

Both, Bo, both! They are different kinds of lugs, but I'm inquiring about both. The claim about holding higher tunings better comes from Brady Drums's Web site: they say that they build their toms and floors and basses with full-length tube lugs to accommodate high tunings.

I think the RC's hi-tension is different, but offers a similar effect?

Bo Eder
10-04-2010, 09:42 AM
Both, Bo, both! They are different kinds of lugs, but I'm inquiring about both. The claim about holding higher tunings better comes from Brady Drums's Web site: they say that they build their toms and floors and basses with full-length tube lugs to accommodate high tunings.

I think the RC's hi-tension is different, but offers a similar effect?

Ah. Personally I think Brady's idea of full-length tube lugs is a total croc. The only drum of theirs that are really subjected to high tunings are the snare drums, and in shorter lengths, such as on snare drums these hi-tension tube lugs would be fine. I think they're completely unnecessary on the rest of the kit. Even if you did go for a high jazz be-bop tuning, it's been proven that regular ol' single lugs will certainly do the trick as-is. Most people who play these days no longer tune in the jazz be bop style, or if they do, it's not for every playing situation.

My gripe is really about the damage you could suffer with these full-length tube lugs. The type used on the Yamaha RC's don't suffer the same kind of damage, if any at all. But a thin brass hollow rod? Somebody was just being clever on that design.

MikeM
10-04-2010, 01:44 PM
As far as long lugs vs. two lugs, it seems clear to me that the long lugs will cause less distortion to the shell (stress), but the drawback is all that mass you're bolting to the shell is likely to have some dampening effect, even if it is only two screws.

With long tube lugs, that disadvantage goes away but then durability issues emerge.

I'm with KIS and Bo in thinking that long lugs (tube or otherwise) on anything other than a snare is unnecessary.

High tension lugs on a marching snare? Yeah, sure. But on a bass drum or toms? Not so much.

KarlCrafton
10-04-2010, 06:01 PM
I have Long Lugs on some of my Ludwig (Super Classic & Classic Maple) drums.
I got them because I like how they look.

Side by side, my CM's with Long Lugs sound a TINY BIT less resonant than the split lugs, but that's at the END of the note (but, they CAN resonate forever if I tune them that way).
They aren't choked by any means, and basically, both styles sound the same.

Right now, I have both styles up on one kit (waiting for the rest of the Black Glass Glitter drums to come back and I wanted to play what I have), and the shells all sound like they "are supposed to go together".

On Ludwig's LL's, the lug for 8" and 9" depth shell has 2 holes.
Deeper than that, the lug has 4 holes (they offer 3 lengths on the LL's).

RobertM
10-04-2010, 11:21 PM
...(waiting for the rest of the Black Glass Glitter drums to come back and I wanted to play what I have)...

What happened to your BGG kit? Something wrong?

Deathmetalconga
10-04-2010, 11:44 PM
I think there is some confusion here between tube lugs that are mostly suspended away from the shell, and long lugs that run the height of the shell and are attached to the shell all the way, often seen on deep marching snares. What kinds of lugs was the original poster talking about?

Tube lugs have some advantages, mainly, the minimize the amount of contact between the shell and heavy, metal hardware. I have single-point tube lugs, which only touch the shell in one small point for each lug, and the single point lug serves both batter and reso heads. This really minimizes penetrations and hardware pressing against the shell, but these lugs are more fragile than non-tube lugs.

Tube lugs, especially single-pointers, have some other disadvantages. Mainly, the lugs vibrate more and tend to loosen the tuning bolts faster. I deal with this by using www.tightscrew.com for all lugs.

Les Ismore
10-05-2010, 04:12 AM
I think there is some confusion here between tube lugs that are mostly suspended away from the shell, and long lugs that run the height of the shell and are attached to the shell all the way, often seen on deep marching snares.



IMO opinion tube and long/hi tension lugs are two different lugs entirely, although you can have single tube lugs also, but both versions of long (across the length of the shell) are completely different animals.


The LUDWIG MACH lugs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdm6IYwhcbU&feature=related) are 'my' favorite LUDWIG lugs, especially on the 90's shadow stain finishes.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRUNTERSDAD
10-05-2010, 04:19 AM
I have a bass drum that I made my Bumble Bee Bop set from that is like the one Les shows in the above post. Two lugs with a hollow channel piece that is just for show.

If you look close at this lug you can see where the channel,pieces slides in.

Artstar
10-05-2010, 07:25 AM
The LUDWIG MACH lugs are 'my' favorite LUDWIG lugs, especially on the 90's shadow stain finishes.-

you ?? Really ?? Monkey Metal and all ??? Well those are one of my favorite too.

Maybe it's hiding here :
http://www.ludwig-drums.com/pdf/Maple%20Config%20Guide.pdf

Les Ismore
10-05-2010, 12:34 PM
you ?? Really ?? Monkey Metal and all ??? Well those are one of my favorite too.

Favorite 'LUDWIG' lug(s) for toms/bass, at least the MACH lug has some beef (thickness) to it and 4 mounting holes... still monkey metal and not my overall fav.


Tongue twister of the day:

"Long lug LUDWIG'S" 5 times fast.


.................................................. .......................

KarlCrafton
10-05-2010, 01:16 PM
What happened to your BGG kit? Something wrong?

Nothing wrong at all. 12-15-16 came back. Perfect. LOVE IT.

Bass drum and 18 coming this week......need batteries for my dang camera :(

I sent a 16x26 a 14, another 16 and a 6.5 snare to be re-done in BGG last week.
I'm having the 16x26 cut down to a 14x26, and the 11x14 cut down to a 10x14 as well.

Aeolian
10-06-2010, 08:07 AM
There is definitely some difference between the vintage tube lugs and solid cast lugs in terms of sheer strain and load distribution. Whether this makes any significant difference at realistic tom tuning forces I'm not sure.

The vintage lug turns the vertical strain of the tension rod into an angular moment at the mounting point on the shell. Creating a twisting force local to the shell. Most of the dual screw/post tube lugs I've seen are made from three pieces so both posts will tip over together like a house of cards.

A conventional one piece cast lug distributes that vertical strain from the tension rod throughout the casting and keeps the strain at the mounting points mostly parallel to the shell instead of perpendicular like the vintage post and tube lug.

I think if you did an FEA on a shell, the one piece cast lugs are putting a more uniform strain on the shell and the post and tube lugs would be creating lots of local distortions. If anything would adversely affect the vibration of the shell at it's natural frequency, I would think the post and tube lugs with their multiple local strains would disturb it more.

Funny, I never really thought about it or worked it out in my mind, but from an engineering standpoint, there it is.

Snare drums, or things like the Brady (easily damaged, I agree) have the counteracting force of the reso head reducing that local tipping force at the post mounting, and would then gain the benefit (however slight) of their lower footprint on the shell.

Maybe those relieved Pearl lugs aren't such a bad idea after all. Someone there was thinking.

RobertM
10-06-2010, 08:20 AM
There is definitely some difference between the vintage tube lugs and solid cast lugs in terms of sheer strain and load distribution. Whether this makes any significant difference at realistic tom tuning forces I'm not sure.

The vintage lug turns the vertical strain of the tension rod into an angular moment at the mounting point on the shell. Creating a twisting force local to the shell. Most of the dual screw/post tube lugs I've seen are made from three pieces so both posts will tip over together like a house of cards.

A conventional one piece cast lug distributes that vertical strain from the tension rod throughout the casting and keeps the strain at the mounting points mostly parallel to the shell instead of perpendicular like the vintage post and tube lug.

I think if you did an FEA on a shell, the one piece cast lugs are putting a more uniform strain on the shell and the post and tube lugs would be creating lots of local distortions. If anything would adversely affect the vibration of the shell at it's natural frequency, I would think the post and tube lugs with their multiple local strains would disturb it more.

Funny, I never really thought about it or worked it out in my mind, but from an engineering standpoint, there it is.

Snare drums, or things like the Brady (easily damaged, I agree) have the counteracting force of the reso head reducing that local tipping force at the post mounting, and would then gain the benefit (however slight) of their lower footprint on the shell.

Maybe those relieved Pearl lugs aren't such a bad idea after all. Someone there was thinking.

So, would the one-piece cast lugs like Ludwig's or Yamaha's Recording Custom lug create more of a strain and/or dampening effect on the drum's resonance? Am I interpreting your comments correctly?

I get that the full-length tube lugs applied to toms and bass drums (like Brady's or even, I suppose, GMS's Grand Master lugs) would be more susceptible to damage from being mishandled or banged around by roadies, but the full-length tube lug would allow for more tom resonance and less strain on the shell?

It seems like the full-length, cast lugs (Ludwig/Yamaha RC) are stronger and not damageable, but they would put more weight and stress on the shell, thus decreasing sustain/resonance; whereas the full-length tube lugs would be "weaker" in the damage department but put less strain on the shell and not hamper resonance/sustain as much.

Is that right?

I agree that Brady's argument that full-length tube lugs are necessary for bebop toms/drums is a bit suspicious, mainly based on the evidence that time-proven jazz drums from Ludwig, Gretsch, and Yamaha have almost all exclusively used short, single or double contact lugs without any damage being done to the shell from high bebop tunings. If this was really an issue, one would think that Gretsch, Yamaha, Craviotto, and Canopus--folks that specialize in jazz drums--would be using or at least offering toms, floor toms, and bass drums with full-length tube or cast lugs.

Plus, I don't see too many folks using Brady drums for jazz, but Ludwig et al regularly sell.

Les Ismore
10-06-2010, 10:49 AM
I'm having the 16x26 cut down to a 14x26,

Hows this going to work?

If you take an inch from front and back, you'll have to clip your T-Rods, or get shorter key rods, plus your spurs won't be perfectly positioned when viewed from the side- though still workable.

KarlCrafton
10-06-2010, 05:02 PM
I'm having the 16x26 cut down to a 14x26,

Hows this going to work?

If you take an inch from front and back, you'll have to clip your T-Rods, or get shorter key rods, plus your spurs won't be perfectly positioned when viewed from the side- though still workable.


The drum has long lugs on it, so taking an inch off each side is not a problem.

The spurs are far enough back to still be in a "look nice from the side" because they are in line with the lugs.

The key rods would be no problem either (like them better that T's), although I have have different length T's also.
The lug insert on a Ludwig lug is a decent length (for shorter rods), and the inside space is able to accommodate different length rods too--still depends on what you put on it in the first place, & the drum did originally have T-rods.

Besides, I decided not to do it haha!

Aeolian
10-07-2010, 06:50 AM
By strain, I'm referring to the tension load on the rod and how that force gets transmitted to the shell. Any force exerted against an object creates strain. The direction of that strain is what is under discussion.

Damping is a separate subject (although strain on a vibrating mass does affect it's resonance). At a basic level, it matters whether the mass of the lug is coupled effectively to the shell, or it is decoupled such that it has it's own fundamental resonance frequency (different than that of the shell). Coupled masses, act basically as one although if there is uneven distribution of mass, it creates local nodes with different fundamental resonance frequencies. Decoupled masses resonate independently although the frequencies at which they do so may create interferences or reinforcements. Interferences will serve to dampen the resonance of either (or both) masses. And practically speaking, it's almost impossible to completely decouple something that you are using as an anchor for something else under strain.

So you would want either very low mass, tightly coupled lugs, or decoupled lugs of a mass that has a sympathetic natural frequency to the shell (pretty difficult to achieve in real life).

Back to the strain. If you spend much time looking at FEA plots, it would seem that the parallel strain of a solid multiple mounting point lug would be more evenly distributed around the area of the shell. Whereas a post based lug would create a lot of local hot spots. Just like tuning a drumhead tighter, the tensile strain of the standard lug will raise the natural frequency of the shell to some degree. The post based lug would create a higher increase in natural frequency local to the mounting, but less effect over more of the shell area. I'm guessing that the uneven distribution of natural resonance frequencies up and down as you work your way around the shell would create more interference frequencies, thus choking the vibration in the band about the shell where these lugs are mounted.

But with their smaller footprint, more of the remainder of the shell is allowed to vibrate homogeneously.

Trade off of mass, vs strain localization, vs area affected.

All this is probably very academic in terms of real world drum sounds. But I guess the ideal would be a low mass lug, mounted closer to the bearing edges, with a form that transferred the pull of the rod parallel to the shell. Shorter tension rods.

As for the full length lugs on some drums, as long as they are not coupled to the shell, they are a viable way to go. I've seen some that lift away from the shell in-between the mounting points. Ones with a plastic or rubber gasket along the full length, probably dampen the shell to some extent. You have a partially decoupled mass with it's own natural frequency fighting the natural frequency of the mass it's pressed up against.

Here's a sodden thought as my brain is crawling through all this. Probably more useful to stave or solid shell builders. What about incorporating the anchor points for the lug threads into the wood of the shell itself? The material is the same with a homogeneous natural frequency/ Although it would be affected by the higher mass thicker sections, this might be less intrusive than bolting a hunk of metal to it.

Fun to consider, but I think I'll go practice now.