Under-cooked chops?

[aydee]

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I think 90% of us, regardless of skill level, always have some on the grill, so to speak.
I'm also sure this includes every class of player, the legends, the pros, the amateurs.. the beginners obviously...

I'm talking about the stuff that we are working on, learning, developing etc.. stuff that we're not a 100% on, as yet, but getting there. Licks, concepts, ideas, theories whatever..'the under-development' bag.

Do you try them on gigs? How do you feel about playing stuff that hasn't yet settled into your sub conscious ?

Do you actively avoid going there, or are you the kind of risk taker that will go for it, dang the consequences?

Just wondering what your gigging mindset is towards the 'undercooked' stuff?

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[keep it simple]

Hahaha, if I wasn't prepared to try stuff I hadn't nailed 100%, I'd never gig!

Nah, seriously, I'll very rarely play something live that I'm not 100% confident in. In fact, I can't remember a time when I've done that. That kinda stuff's for practices imo, that said, as I'm a simple player, that's not much of a challenge.

[brady]

I don't introduce any new chops into the 'menu' until they are well-done. Maybe medium-well if it's a slower tune.
I don't want to attempt something at a gig if I have to think too much about it. I would rather have it ingrained in muscle memory before I try to pull off something in front of an audience.

[bobdadruma]

I'll think about it and I'll be all ready to try it at a gig, then I usually find myself not trying it.
Then the day will come when I will do it without realizing it.

[Garvin]

I always try things I'm not sure of. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The song always goes on, and I usually laugh about it when I flub something. The bass player is on the same page with me and he usually smiles either way.

[Pollyanna]

Chops? They're those fast fancy thingies, aren't they? Nope, can't say I'm familiar with them. I do find that differing acoustics change the feel of the beats I play.

Sorry for posting.

[aydee]

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Just to introduce a counter view, Billy Ward for instance will take crazy chances every times he gigs.

He feels that he has developed the skill and art of 'cheating' and 'covering up' well enough for it never to be a train wreck. However, a skateboard crash is something he can live with because it allows him a level of excitement of living in the musical moment and stirs his creativity.

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[aydee]

Sorry for posting.

Sorry Pol, please treat the word it as a euphemism for anything new going on in your 'drummin' head.

The stuff that you really want to play but not sure it'll come out right.

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[JT1]

There is a big difference to practicing and playing a gig, I get heightened nerves and uncomfortable (sometimes) when I gig compared to practice. I could play something perfect a million times at practice and then screw it up first time at a gig. I learnt a long time a go that if you aren't comfortable with something then don't play it, find an alternative at least until you are more comfortable with it. However I admit I have tried things that I haven't been comfortable with and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. One song my band wrote featured a galloping rhythm all of the way through and I knew I couldn't do the gallop on DB for that long at that time however I said I wasn't going to play anything else other than that. Sometimes I got it right and others not so good but I kept forcing myself at gigs to play it and not cop out and now I can do it most of the time without any mistakes. So it's good to be comfortable but it is also good to take risks.

Always assess the importance of the gig by: size of the crowd, how loud your drums are and how respectable the venue is before you try taking a risk. If it is low profile, sure do it, if it is high profile then stay comfortable and avoid the risks.

[aydee]

@ Bob- thats what I think most of us have to live with, and its exactly what I do! ( a kindred soul!! )
@ Garvin- Greg, your'e a jazz player and doing a bunch of other exotic stuff with percussion, so I would imagine you going for it...
@ Brady- Slower in this case does mean easier perhaps.

[Pollyanna]

Sorry Pol, please treat the word it as a euphemism for anything new going on in your 'drummin' head.

The stuff that you really want to play but not sure it'll come out right.

..

Thanks Abe - pkay, this is a party I'm invited to :)

I never intend to play things that are outside my comfort zone at gigs. However, if I'm feeling in control I can carried away and I'll take risks. It's as though my ear says THIS MUST BE DONE AT THIS MOMENT so I go for it. If I'm in that frame of mind, most times I'll get it and, if not, I'll cover it ... execution born of desperation ... I'd look like such a gronk if I screwed up.

Remember that version of Little Wing I posted? I've not played the 4-bar hero fill (for me) or crazy stuff at the final breakdown before or since.

[aydee]

Always assess the importance of the gig by: size of the crowd, how loud your drums are and how respectable the venue is before you try taking a risk. If it is low profile, sure do it, if it is high profile then stay comfortable and avoid the risks.

Interesting. Sometimes the size of the gig emboldens me more..

I also think it has a lot ot do with the kind of music. There's music which is very orchestrated ( porcupine tree, Rush etc.. ) where its like playing a set part pretty much, night after night..so this might not apply to everything..

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[larryace]

At the moment, I'm trying to incorporate Bonham triplets on some of my endings. They are undercooked for sure, but on an ending, it's not nearly as critical as disrupting the groove with a failed attempt at a cool drum figure. Usually I won't try anything I don't feel during the song.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I don't do much live work at all these days Aydee, but on the occasions I do (as in the past), it usually comes down to my mood. If I'm "feeling it", I'll go for it come what may.....if it doesn't quite come off then it's time to quickly try and employ the "cheating and covering up" approach. I guess I must "cheat" well.....haven't had a train wreck for many years.

[aydee]

@ Larry - ending dont count, Larry ; )

But having heard your playing quite a bit, I'd imagine you to go for stuff occasionally

@ PFG- I think cheating well is the key to spontaneous creativity. Glad you've cracked the code.

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[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Glad you've cracked the code.


The code is easy mate.......whatever mess of it you just made. Smile and look like you meant it. :-)

[JT1]

Interesting. Sometimes the size of the gig emboldens me more..

I also think it has a lot ot do with the kind of music. There's music which is very orchestrated ( porcupine tree, Rush etc.. ) where its like playing a set part pretty much, night after night..so this might not apply to everything..

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I see what you are saying Aydee. Sometimes I feel more confident in front of a large audience and take my energy from them but sometimes I also feel like I don't want to mess up in front of them either. I guess there are 2 sides to every coin.

[RocketSauce]

Sometimes you're on and sometimes you're not. I'll try whatever I'm working on at a gig depending on how confident I feel at the moment.
There's been many times where I've tried something out that I wasn't 100% at but since I was having an 'on' night, I nailed it.

For what I've been working on, I'm trying to incorporate more paradiddle fills and muting my crashes for accents

[BrewBillfold]

Like always, "It depends on the gig". When I can do it, I prefer to be in the "risk taker" category--I prefer experimental approaches in general (and in a fairly literal sense--where we're experimenting and not quite sure what the results are going to be). it's just not wise for some gigs.

[cnw60]

Going outside my comfort zone is less about going for a specific riff or fill (or whatever) than it is about trusting myself to play at a more intuitive level and not really knowing where it's going to end up. Those are the moments that yield either my best playing, even to the point that I really have no clue how I just played what I did, or alternatively it can turn out awesomely horrible.

I usually stay safely within my comfort zone at gigs. If I'm feeling 'it' that night, I will start going more outside and see how it goes. My current band situation requires me to keep things pretty simple and straightforward, so that affects how I'm currently approaching things.

The quality of the other musicians allows more or less freedom with regard to pushing myself one way or the other.

[techristian]

If you force it into a tune where it doesn't belong, even "well done" chops won't work.

Dan

[jon e rotten]

I usually find that if I have to conciously think about trying a fill, it's not going to go well.
That doesn't always stop me however.

[aydee]

The quality of the other musicians allows more or less freedom with regard to pushing myself one way or the other.

Thats a fantastic insight which hadn't occurred to me. You are right on.
The quality of musicianship in the band I think is directly related to the quality of time in the band. and if the the foundation is more solid because of that, you are perhaps psychologically freer to run around off the leash for a bit..

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[Brundlefly]

My tendency is to always include a good level of improvisation, to keep the feel free flowing and "alive." And for me, that means sometimes going to places that may not yet be ready for prime time. However, even that mode is aggressively throttled back from practice sessions where I'm often trying to find my breaking point.

That said, I never try to play something in front of people that I've been having a lot of difficulty with lately. If I'm thinking about something negatively, it's not going to come out well. Hell, if I'm thinking about it at all, it's not going to come out well. So, I'm filtering out the stuff that I know positively will come out badly, but letting pretty much anything and everything else through.

This hasn't always been my approach, but I changed it after hearing both Stewart Copeland and Les Claypool talk about how they insist on going with whatever they got in their first few takes, mistakes or not, and they don't edit in post. They value freshness over perfectness. They want their stuff to sound like its crackling with life. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[aydee]

They value freshness over perfectness. They want their stuff to sound like its crackling with life. d.

Wow, its amazing how many different angles musicians can have on how they approach their playing.. I think 'freshness' might also mean putting a high premium on 'honesty' and being less contrived.

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[BrewBillfold]

That said, I never try to play something in front of people that I've been having a lot of difficulty with lately. Yeah, I definitely wouldn't do that, either. If you know it's going to be one big cack or a trainwreck, avoid it.

I should probably mention in this thread too that I typically do not think in anything like natural languages (like English) about what I'm doing when I'm experimenting, free-flowing, trying to push myself into new and often surprising directions. I'd not normally think to myself, "Okay, now I'm going to try to insert that stuff I was working on yesterday here". I think much more abstractly about what I'm doing and it pretty much comes out almost the same time it's happening. Then what comes out leads to new directions at that moment. It's very stream-of-consciousness, a continually evolving thing the way I do it, and it can quite surprise myself, too. Ideally, that's what I'm always aiming for, but you just can't do it in every situation unfortunately. Sometimes you have to go into "factory worker putting together widgets" mode or whatever.They value freshness over perfectness. They want their stuff to sound like its crackling with life. The perfect is the enemy of the good.I couldn't agree more with that.

[bob2loud]

Call me uptight, but if I'm doing a gig I'll add something new only if it fits the song, I can nail it smoothly, and it won't distract the other band members.
At practice however, I'll try something interesting that may not be quite ready to see if it works in a song, and sometimes just to keep the bassist from getting too comfortable.

[Spectron]

never at a gig...but just jammin around yesterday with a friend of mine (also a drummer)
I let loose on a solo(we were kind of trading back and fourth sitting on the kit and blasting away)

hidden in the depths of what was probably 50% chaotic flailing - I nailed some seriously cool vibey jazz-solo style things that I've never heard myself play before .....it grooved it moved it flowed and then it took off into free-form expression..that seemed to unconciously rattle off phrases intricate and spicy and even the glistening after touch of cymbal tones seemed to be composed of pure magic

It was one of those moments when all the chops you've been practicing for the last 6 months converge in to something greater than the sum of their parts....

I think I had spiritual drum moment.....
it was fantastic....

[zakhopper316]

i always play the exact same thing at my bands shows. ill change it up every 20 or so shows to keep
it fresh to me. but we play to often to go out there and experiment in front of people who payed
10 to 20 dollars to hear a show consistent with the quality of our cd. unless your in a jazz or
improv band its completely unprofessional and disrespectful to your band mates. if the bassist
changed his bass line or the vocalist changed the words with ought rehearsal i would be upset.
its playing with fire, save that stuff for your drum solo (if you have one) or for an open mic
jam session when its just your reputation at stake and not the whole bands.

[MikeM]

I usually have certain parts of songs that I'm really happy with and don't deviate on whatever that is - unless I'm feeling something else that I think might be cooler somehow. Doesn't matter to me much if it's a show or a practice; strike while the iron's hot! But just because I might want to try something a little different doesn't mean I'm going to overreach or completely change the flavor of what my part's doing. The song still rules and I'm not about to upset that - at least not on purpose!

I don't think I've ever tried to play a song exactly the same way every single time (the way Neil Peart does) in any band I've been in. There's always room for spontaneity in my parts. I like to be kept on my toes and that keeps things interesting.

[Pollyanna]

Interesting insights. I suspect for many of us it depends on how we've arranged our drum parts.

I work out some drum parts verbatim - where the song and the other players depend on me playing the part the way it's "written". In others there's some wiggle room and I only have a sketchy outline and don't know exactly what I'll do until the moment arrives.

[DrumEatDrum]

Most bands I've been in, every thing was worked out in the rehearsal room until we were a well oiled machine. There was no room to try something new on stage, nor would there be a point in trying. All that was done back in rehearsal.

Now in my current situation, where I'm writing my own material, and working with a buddy, it's very prog influenced, so there is room for trying new things. As it's a "studio only" band, no one else is in the room when I'm recording. So I tend to not work out the fills or chops in advance, or play anything the same way twice. It's my studio, so if a chop comes out 1/2 baked, I can just hit "undo" and re-record the song over and over as many times as I want. It's a different way or working then I've done before, but then again, that was the point of starting this project, to be different than what I've done in the past.

The irony is, I wanted to write my own material so I'd have interesting things to drum to, but I get so caught up in the chords, guitar parts, keys, song structure, etc, the drums tend to be the last thing I think about anymore.

[Coldhardsteel]

My band's style doesn't require me to think, so I don't know about being experimental during practice or whatever. I kind of just try to not slow down or speed up too much, and play the right beats for the right parts.

However, I have pretty calm nerves. Incorporating odd fills that I've never used before into settings in which I haven't really practiced is no big task to me, I just act like it didn't happen and keep playing if I mess up. If it fits, and I get a smirk from the guitarist, then all the better.

So, no pain no gain. If you're gonna tackle a gig, put all your weight into it.

[Pollyanna]

The irony is, I wanted to write my own material so I'd have interesting things to drum to, but I get so caught up in the chords, guitar parts, keys, song structure, etc, the drums tend to be the last thing I think about anymore.

Welcome to the worldview of the rest of the band :)

When I was playing keys the drummer was just something I used as a reference point. Most of the time I was working on coordinating with the singer and guitarist. To be fair, the drummer we had was far from compelling ... as was my keyboarding lol

[DrumEatDrum]

Welcome to the worldview of the rest of the band :)

When I was playing keys the drummer was just something I used as a reference point. Most of the time I was working on coordinating with the singer and guitarist. To be fair, the drummer we had was far from compelling ... as was my keyboarding lol

The worst was I decided to redo the rhythm guitar on one part of one song, and I got mad at the drummer for playing such an off-beat part, because it made it difficult to strum the right guitar rhythm to the drum part.

Of course, that drummer being me. Nothing like fighting with yourself!!! hahaha.....

[Pollyanna]

The worst was I decided to redo the rhythm guitar on one part of one song, and I got mad at the drummer for playing such an off-beat part, because it made it difficult to strum the right guitar rhythm to the drum part.

Of course, that drummer being me. Nothing like fighting with yourself!!! hahaha.....

^%^$ drummers! Why don't they just play the ^%^$ beat and stop ^%^$ messing around with their ^%^$ showoffy chops! Just play the ^%^$ song dammit! :)

[JPW]

Most of the stuff my band plays is improvisation (some sort of fusion jazz - post rock hybrid) so I'm expected to play to my fullest but with as little mistakes as possible. The problem is to find that balance. My chops are contantly evolving so I have found that for my particular context it's more useful to know how to recover from the mistakes than it is to try to avoid them all together.

(stupid analog:)
It's like juggling in the wind while walking backwards. It's not so much about how flashily you can catch them indoors than how fast you can kill the bird that took the ball while you were trying to not step on the snake that lurks behind you.

[aydee]

(stupid analog:)
It's like juggling in the wind while walking backwards. It's not so much about how flashily you can catch them indoors than how fast you can kill the bird that took the ball while you were trying to not step on the snake that lurks behind you.

Awesome! : )


.....................

[Royal]

We don't treat gigs as rehearsals.
That's an insult to the folks you're playing too.

Work HARD at your rehearsals to impress at the gig.

We may change a few things but it's well oiled & very tight.
I won't play chops unless I'm 100% sure that they'll come off.
Of course I occasionally & thankfully rarely, make a small mistake, but other band members rarely notice.



Just my two yens worth.

[Derek]

Every once in a while I like to take that risk. There's that rush that comes from "not playing it safe." Please don't get the wrong idea here - I don't treat gigs, the audience, the song or my bandmates like my personal guinea pigs for experimentation and amusment. Just on occasion I like to let it go ( and always keep aware of where "1' is, just in case).

[Pkaneps]

I always try things I'm not sure of. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The song always goes on, and I usually laugh about it when I flub something.

That's exactly how I feel.