THE HEEL TOE THREAD

[skippy]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

[RudimentalDrummer]

They don't have over size pedal don't they and you can't shrink your foot neither. So I guess you can't do it heel-toe the usual way. Maybe you should slant your foot at 45 degree angle and try doing the heel-toe.(I don't know - I'm just imagining)

[somedrummer]

Size 12? Try size 16, man! No, as far as heel-toe, i guess i dont really do it.

A while back I sent an email to Gene Okamoto of Pearl drums, and he said he had talked to the designer of the eliminator pedals anout this concept. I havent seen anything for it yet, but I have faith in Pearl to make something that will work for us bigfootsies.

[davodi74]

Yeah, mate, I know how you feel. size twelve also. I often feel clumsy when playing in shoes because there...so....big!

[Beercan]

Errrr, size 12 is pretty normal unless we're talking about different scales here. I'm a 12.5-13 US and I don't have any problem with the size of my feet... although now that you mention it, I definitely have a couple of pairs of shoes that I avaoid wearing while I'm playing. The shoes that I like playing in the most are like 2 years old and the flattest, narrowest ones I have. I think your shoes might be more of a problem than your foot size in itself.

[Thinshells]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

Check out the axis-x longboards. They are substantially longer than dw pedals. I have the same sized feet and it was a lot more work for me to learn to play heel toe than buddies who all have size 9 feet.

Size 12= much longer than the dw9000 footboard. It is a bit awkward compared to say Joey Jordinsons little feet.

[skippy]

oh well looks like im stuck. i can get some fast singles on my pedal by a twitching motion i started using.

[rkettner]

If someone can help you out here for free, definately take that advice... however if it isn't working for you for any reason - you can check out my heel-toe technique video lesson (http://www.heeltoetechnique.com). It's cheaper than a single private lesson, and shows exactly how to play this method even if you have shoe sizes of 20+. Seriously, it can be done with ANY size and I cover that specifically in the video. Again... if some free advice will do the trick - then save your money.

[MysteRMagnuM]

Hi

Does anyone have a video or something that shows the proper way to do the heel toe method for playing the bass drum?
I'm not sure that the way that i am trying it is the proper way.

Any help will be much appreciated(sp).

[lapa]

I have two videos, one is 18mb~ and the other is 45mb~
In these videos the guy explains it very good, with slowmotion and all that. also beats you can practice the technique with.

Just give me a place where i can host it. (without becoming a member)

-
heel_toe_training_high

Heel-Toe Video

- That's the name of the videos, try DC or something untill i get some kind of hostsite.

[Nick Garland]

Got the video off lapa and hosted for you (link removed by administration)

[Zirar]

Awesome video! Thanks for sharing!

[rjvsmb]

Thanks lapa and nick!!!!!!!

That is an awsowe video. I'm gonna go practice it right now.

rjvsmb

[Massik Kretal]

Seems too easy. I can do some of it without heel toe.

[MysteRMagnuM]

Thanks a lot guys. This has been very helpfull. :)

[Whitey]

After watching the vieo, I started practicing this nonstop. problem im running into is i dont think my pedal tension(sp?) is high enough anyopne out there have any tips on finding the right tension to get good rebount on the foot pad. i use DW4000 double bass pedals FYI

Whitey

[larkin42]

I was wondering if the heel-toe technique is any faster than playing heel up, i watched this video and i can play anything he is playing on there and more, playing heel up.

If it is a faster way of play, I will give it a shot and try it out.

[fourstringdrums]

I'm glad someone had the breaksticks.com video and was able to post it. Rick explains the technique very well.

You can actually buy a video that his partner Jared Falk has produced at www.heeltoetechnique.com (http://www.heeltoetechnique.com) I believe it is. The laughable thing about it though is that on the site he claims that the video is $99 and you can get it for a limited time discount of $9! $99 regularly for a DOWNLOADABLE video? Yay..where do I sign up..

Steve Gadd also demonstrates the technique on his "Up Close" video, although he does it alot more elegantly and smoother looking. I'm still trying to do 16th notes with that technique and I just can't make it flow smoothly.

[mr_hayward_99]

After watching the vieo, I started practicing this nonstop. problem im running into is i dont think my pedal tension(sp?) is high enough anyopne out there have any tips on finding the right tension to get good rebount on the foot pad. i use DW4000 double bass pedals FYI

Whitey

so i think not so much tension, i have never used a DW pedal, apart from in a shop once. so dont really know what that ones like

I use a basic mapex pedal with not much bounce on it at all, and i find that easier beacuse if youy have to much tension the pedal just bounces to much and ur foot can t keep up with it,

[NUTHA JASON]

i used to think that having more tension on springs = faster pedals but from DVDs and also at drummerlive2005 i saw that it was the opposite. since then i have detensioned my springs to the extent that my beatere swings back and forth for at least ten seconds after i leave it and voila i'm suddenly a lot faster and have more endurance. seems obvious to me now.


j


ps: sorry guys but i had to remove the link to the heel toe method as it is copyrighted and its owner specifically asked me to do it. please only post public stuff (videos that are available on quite a few sites). it is hard to tell i know, but if something has good quality sound, size and is as long as this video was then you can be sure that it is meant to be bought. who knows, one day you will want to make an instructional clip and then want paying. and on top of that we don't want Drummerworld to be sued. protect the forum please.

[Thinshells]

Heel toe and pedal tension:

While I did start with the out of the box low tension, I moved on.

I find that tension, like alcohol is best in moderation. I see no value in cranking the spring so tight you actually have to fight to overcome the pull. And too dead, it's working against you-it lacks action.

I found the best response for any given style is between 1/3 and 2/3 of total spring tension range.

The pedal should be alive enough to rapidly rebound.

I feel sorry for youngsters just starting on this. They usually have to suffere through a super crappy single or ultra crappy double pedal to start on. I played one in July attached to a friends e-kit. It was amazing how much control is lost, and effort wasted due to poor action and construction.

If you guys want to get serious about double kick, make sure you use a solid pedal. Some of the affordable pearl and tama are decent for the money. But almost all of the $69 double pedals I have tried are terrible.

[NUTHA JASON]

i'm in complete agreement. i would say that your pedal should be the most expensive thing on your kit. as early as possible in your career, before you get a second crash or up-grade your cymbals and snare, save up and get a pro quality bass pedal. the positive effect on your progress as a drummer cannot be exaggerated. rather bear with a horrible sounding kit for another two years and have a great pedal (and therefore begin developing great pedal technique). you wouldn't play drums with toilet brushes or a pair of baseball bats so why suffer a crummy pedal. if your pedal costs less than 10% of the total cost of all your gear (for example a £3000 drumkit including cymbals and cases should have at least a £300 pedal) then you are shooting yourself in the foot, LOL.

j

Ps: look up the meaning of false economy.

[mediocrefunkybeat]

I disagree when you say it should be the most expensive piece of gear on your kit, but I agree in principle. Why play with a bad pair of sticks? The bass pedal IMO is just as important (arguably more, because you're stuck with it when you buy it) as sticks. I use a DW5000 Turbo single now and it was a big upgrade from my Pearl P-100TW (double). It's made a nice difference and I feel a lot better about my kit knowing at least one part of it is of that standard.

Although, it doesn't have to be the most expensive piece of gear. Mine cost me £99 (special deal at Wembley, Nutha, if you want a backup), my ride cost me £140.

[fourstringdrums]

I disagree when you say it should be the most expensive piece of gear on your kit, but I agree in principle. Why play with a bad pair of sticks? The bass pedal IMO is just as important (arguably more, because you're stuck with it when you buy it) as sticks. I use a DW5000 Turbo single now and it was a big upgrade from my Pearl P-100TW (double). It's made a nice difference and I feel a lot better about my kit knowing at least one part of it is of that standard.

Although, it doesn't have to be the most expensive piece of gear. Mine cost me £99 (special deal at Wembley, Nutha, if you want a backup), my ride cost me £140.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. A good bass pedal is important but it doesn't have to be the most expensive. My Eliminator was $109 and that's cheaper than any cymbal I've ever bought, other than a splash.

[nemo]

i got one on my pc, but i dont know where i can uploade videos.

[finnhiggins]

Although, it doesn't have to be the most expensive piece of gear. Mine cost me £99 (special deal at Wembley, Nutha, if you want a backup), my ride cost me £140.

My pedal is probably the least expensive thing on my kit, I got it off a friend for twenty quid :)

Tama Iron Cobra single. I've yet to try anything I like significantly better.

[NUTHA JASON]

i meant if you're buying a new one.

j

ps: finn, i play the exact same pedal...and i love it. superb action and engineering and tough as nails.

[fourstringdrums]

i got one on my pc, but i dont know where i can uploade videos.

www.putfile.com (http://www.putfile.com) seems to be pretty popular for uploading videos for free.

[jedrgy]

It says the link was removed by the administrator could somebody email me the link here... jedrgy@gmail.com ... thanks

[Capitaine Quebec]

i tried the heel toe technique and its working with my right foot but not the left. Good technique indeed but not for me. And those who say that can play with heel up faster thant the video exercise, normal, the video is for learning, not showing off :P

out of thread----
I have 2 bass drum, should i get a double pedal or 2 separate pedals? because if i want a decent pedal (what im planning to do because my pedals feel horrible, they are the stock pedals) like exemple iron cobra that is around 130$ new, its 2 time for me so 260$ plus tax so its kinda costy. if i buy a double pedal , i will be able to play with 1 or two bass drum depending on how i feel, but is it more costy than 2 pedals?

[Thinshells]

i tried the heel toe technique and its working with my right foot but not the left. Good technique indeed but not for me. And those who say that can play with heel up faster thant the video exercise, normal, the video is for learning, not showing off :P

out of thread----
I have 2 bass drum, should i get a double pedal or 2 separate pedals? because if i want a decent pedal (what im planning to do because my pedals feel horrible, they are the stock pedals) like exemple iron cobra that is around 130$ new, its 2 time for me so 260$ plus tax so its kinda costy. if i buy a double pedal , i will be able to play with 1 or two bass drum depending on how i feel, but is it more costy than 2 pedals?

I went to 1 kick to save space, and because I liked th dw9002/eliminator so much. But:
I am considering building a twin kick maple shelled kit that replicates most of Neil Pearts red artstar kit. I would go to twin eliminators in that case. I do so for personal aesthetics and looks, but not necessity. Twin pedals are so good these days, there really isn't much need for two of the same sized kick.

My philosophy is: use two if you feel better with them. twin kick kits look very cool indeed.

[rkettner]

It says the link was removed by the administrator could somebody email me the link here... jedrgy@gmail.com ... thanks

The link was removed because the video is copyright material. You can buy the Heel-Toe Technique video (http://www.heeltoetechnique.com) online for a reasonable price ($9.95), and the money helps in the development of future videos.

[fourstringdrums]

Rick, do you have any plans to sell DVD's along with the downloadable versions?

[Capitaine Quebec]

I went to 1 kick to save space, and because I liked th dw9002/eliminator so much. But:
I am considering building a twin kick maple shelled kit that replicates most of Neil Pearts red artstar kit. I would go to twin eliminators in that case. I do so for personal aesthetics and looks, but not necessity. Twin pedals are so good these days, there really isn't much need for two of the same sized kick.

Well the thing is that when i bought my drum, it came with 2 bass drum, it was reducted, plus everything was, in the store, at a normal price with taxe, i saved about 900$ which is good i think. I thought myself "Great two base drum=no need for dbl bass drum pedal" yeah right... at the beggining i didnt care about my pedals, now i do. They feel crappy and i hear this metal sound when i try to go faster with them. My friend keep telling me "no they are great keep them" when i tell him that i absolutely want to change them. So any suggestion on pedal? i think i will buy a double pedal and keep my 2 bass drum so i will be able to get 2 different sound. Any suggestion on what to get? i dont know if the iron cobra dbl worth their 300 $...

[jedrgy]

Do those of you who have the video think its worth the 10 bucks??

[Thinshells]

Well the thing is that when i bought my drum, it came with 2 bass drum, it was reducted, plus everything was, in the store, at a normal price with taxe, i saved about 900$ which is good i think. I thought myself "Great two base drum=no need for dbl bass drum pedal" yeah right... at the beggining i didnt care about my pedals, now i do. They feel crappy and i hear this metal sound when i try to go faster with them. My friend keep telling me "no they are great keep them" when i tell him that i absolutely want to change them. So any suggestion on pedal? i think i will buy a double pedal and keep my 2 bass drum so i will be able to get 2 different sound. Any suggestion on what to get? i dont know if the iron cobra dbl worth their 300 $...

The least expensive decent pedal is probably the iron cobra junior or pearls equivalent. There is a madrange mapex (580 IIRC ) that isn't bad. Those are good starting points. If you go too cheap you will be fighting with a bad design.

[fourstringdrums]

Do those of you who have the video think its worth the 10 bucks??

I had the video back when it first came out, and I'd say yes. Rick made the video very informative and leaves no stone unturned or question unanswered about the technique.

[Thinshells]

IIRc Steve Smiths "History of the US beat" shows both heel toe and heel up.

[rkettner]

Rick, do you have any plans to sell DVD's along with the downloadable versions?

Yes, I am definately interested in getting DVDs made soon. Stay tuned to the Heel Toe Technique website (http://www.heeltoetechnique.com) for more info. Should be coming very soon.

[deltadrummer1]

After reading the posts and watching some videos on the heel toe technique, I now see that a longboard pedal isn't necessary to use the technique...but would a longboard make it easier on someone with large feet? Or would it be easier just to learn it on a regular sized pedal?

[davodi74]

ARRRRRGH! You people with small feet dont realize how lucky you are.... I wear a size 11. Grrrrr.

[Ducky]

ARRRRRGH! You people with small feet dont realize how lucky you are.... I wear a size 11. Grrrrr.

i wear a size 13 :(

stupid forum. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 20 characters.

there.

[mr_hayward_99]

i am just starting to develop my heel/toe technique getting up to sppeed.

when doing 16th notes with my with my heel in the air, i cant go that fast but if i chuck in a heel once evry 4 beats i can go alot faster.

i was wondering how do people use their heel in this technique.

when doing tripilets i do toe-heel-toe

do people when doing 16th notes on the bass drum to heel-toe-heel-toe or just throw in a heel every so often.

i have been trying to build my bass drum speed up and my heel-toe technique.
i have set up some exercise playing the bass drum on evry note.

heel -toe -toe -toe
toe-heel-toe-toe
toe-toe-heel-toe
toe-toe-toe-heel
heel-toe-heel-toe

so basically how do you guy incorporate heel-toe into ur playing.?

[RudimentalDrummer]

You mean for - The Bass Drum only ? I used Ball Of Toe strictly most of the time.

Using Heel/Toe will not build up speed for your Bass Drum and added to that .. To

[Tamadrummer778]

Heel Toe is a great technique which I use to the best of my ability, but I want to know how many other drummers use this technique and any tips and tricks

[richyokes]

My pedal playing has always needed looking at, I'm ashamed. Weckl says toe only and the foot slides and pivots.

Gadd plays 1 with the heel, and then the double by bouncing up on the toe.

I'm not sure either.....

[Tamadrummer778]

I wear a 15 sized shoe (us) and haven't found a pedal yet for me to do heel toe on comfortably

[richyokes]

Dude, I thought I had it bad in a 12 UK. I'm hoping you have the height to match the 'canoes'....as my Granny used to say.

The old Tama pedals had big open sized pedals...

[Tamadrummer778]

I am considering giving the Axis Longboards a shot-
Any experience with those?

[richyokes]

I'm sure that's a good way to go, although too pricey for me. Do it. Do it.

[Tamadrummer778]

Yeah price is a issue but if they last longer and are a better pedal I dont mind paying more for them

[richyokes]

They look like they have quite a roomy board, good for your foot....

[Johnny_Stacks]

if you got that big of a foot i dont no if you could be able to do heel toe man lol. im a size 9 and i have trouble doing it. i have to put my foot off to the side to do it

- John

[Tamadrummer778]

Yeah I really have some trouble

[Tamadrummer778]

Any techniques anyone can recommend?

[richyokes]

Guys,

Weckl and Phillips feet go to the side when playing doubles fast, sounds like you're playing correctly.

[Tamadrummer778]

Right now I am using two Tama HP10 and They ain't cuttin it though.

[gr82bagn]

Tamadrummer778,

Have you looked into the Vruk pedal attachment? I'm not currently learning a heel toe technique for bass drum but in the future I'm going to want to try and learn due to a 121/2 EEE foot I may have some issues. I researched and this Vruk looks very interesting. Check it out yourself at http://www.vrukpedal.com it seems to not only improve the way the beater strikes but it also extends the length of the bass pedal. I saw one of these sell on eBay last week for about $80.

[Tamadrummer778]

Thanks I'll check it out-

[jollymosher]

lol i have the same problem, size 14, and my foot hangs off the petal.

[RamboKnife]

I have a size 16...am I screwed?

[Raymond Bloom]

Ok I feel a need to step in...
The heel-toe technique is NOT a heel an toe there is actually NO HEEL STROKE!
The ''heel stroke'' is actually a toe down stroke.
For example, if you want to start with toe up stroke or toe stroke, rise ur upper leg and in the same time move your foot down. This part is pretty simple, now comes the hardest part, now the toe down stroke or the ''heel stroke'', it is the opposite, you have to move your upper leg down and your foot up (just a bit) so now you have the double stroke motion. Now try to keep it fluent.
If you don't understand my explanation watch the
Jojo Mayer's Nreve video clip from MD 2005 (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/JojomayerMD2005.html)
(1:33 min) as you can see, his heel never touches the foot board (well it does, but not in order to make a stroke)

also, check out Steve Smith's DVD - The History Of US Beat, great explanation of the heel-toe technique.

[Raymond Bloom]

here is what Jojo Mayer says about heel-toe technique:

''In regards to your questions about the "reverse stroke", Heel Toe,"push pull" or "watheverthef'#$%k" -Foot technique i would point out the following:
I like light, low mass pedals like the old flexi flyer or the old camco or gretsch floating action pedals ( all of 'em out of manufacturing) .In any case,I use very minimal spring tension on my pedal. The spring is real loose, so the beater almost falls back to me after impact (as opposed to snap back at me). Personally,I preferre longer footboards (tama iron cobra, Sonor phonic, the new Pearl pedal's good too), but you can do the technique on any pedal if executed the right way. I also HATE toe stops and i remove'em if neccessary. They reduce the aera of my foot's action.I need every inch of my footboard.
The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !

Experience the best way for you to push yourself. If you get cramps or pains, You obviously push yourself too hard or you did'nt observe the mechanics of your technique carefull enough.Therefore you have to "compensate" for the lack of agility, balance or training in a particular part of your body action, wich will result in "overemployed" muscular action hence cramps. I pay lot's of attention to the way i feel when i play. Dont' squeeze. If you "squeeze" when you practise, you will "squeeze" when you perform. Be patient let it grow naturally...experiment,observe yourself, use your immagination, relax, relax, RELAX, be patient! It took me a long time to cultivate and master this technique, and as im trying to improve it's still a work in progress to this day..
Learning a new technique is like growing a rare tropical plant. It requires sensitivity and all the above more than just hours of mindless shedding...
To conclude : wathever you do with your feet, allways be aware of were your balance and center is. Try to stay balanced and relaxed, it's important to every aspect of your playing and it starts with the way you sit and your pedal work. It's easy to loose center when getting into that kinda' right foot stuff!

Good luck,
Jojo Mayer''

[Raymond Bloom]

The size of your feet isn't important, if your toe fits on the footboard you can play using heel-toe technique :-)

[EXIT]

here is what Jojo Mayer says about heel-toe technique:


That's absolutely fantastic...I got that Steve Gadd book mentioned above, but - crucially - not the video, so I had no idea how its done.
And another thing, I have big (size 12 English) feet. And i play in my socks...I've been fitting the chain (standard Pearl pedal, simple and fine for me) between my big toe and the one next to it for this technique..grotesquely awkward. :)
Oh well...back to school!

Thanks jammaster!

[RudimentalDrummer]

Ok I feel a need to step in...
The heel-toe technique is NOT a heel an toe there is actually NO HEEL STROKE!
The ''heel stroke'' is actually a toe down stroke.
For example, if you want to start with toe up stroke or toe stroke, rise ur upper leg and in the same time move your foot down. This part is pretty simple, now comes the hardest part, now the toe down stroke or the ''heel stroke'', it is the opposite, you have to move your upper leg down and your foot up (just a bit) so now you have the double stroke motion. Now try to keep it fluent.
If you don't understand my explanation watch the
Jojo Mayer's Nreve video clip from MD 2005 (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/JojomayerMD2005.html)
(1:33 min) as you can see, his heel never touches the foot board (well it does, but not in order to make a stroke)

also, check out Steve Smith's DVD - The History Of US Beat, great explanation of the heel-toe technique.

Thank you jammaster for the wonderful explaination.

This is a very clear explaination. I was watching John Blakwell DVD yesterday and John foots was exactly the way you had described it here. John says that he uses the Ball of the Toe to move and I don't see his heels touching the pedal in the DVD.

Seems like the toe is place somewhere slightly above the centre of the pedal when you do this kind of Single foot roll...

[RudimentalDrummer]

The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !

i pay lot's of attention to the way i feel when i play. Dont' squeeze. Be patient let it grow naturally...experiment,observe yourself, use your immagination, relax, relax, RELAX, be patient! It took me a long time to cultivate and master this technique, and as im trying to improve it's still a work in progress to this day..
Learning a new technique is like growing a rare tropical plant. It requires sensitivity and all the above more than just hours of mindless shedding...

To conclude : wathever you do with your feet, allways be aware of were your balance and center is. Try to stay balanced and relaxed, it's important to every aspect of your playing and it starts with the way you sit and your pedal work. It's easy to loose center when getting into that kinda' right foot stuff!

Good luck,
Jojo Mayer''

Thanks again...jammaster...clear & precise explaination offered here on Heel-Toe Techniques for developing the Right Foot Techniques on Bass Drum.

[Raymond Bloom]

I'm really glad that I could help someone :-) Your welcome

[kzdruma]

After watching the vieo, I started practicing this nonstop. problem im running into is i dont think my pedal tension(sp?) is high enough anyopne out there have any tips on finding the right tension to get good rebount on the foot pad. i use DW4000 double bass pedals FYI

Whitey

so i think not so much tension, i have never used a DW pedal, apart from in a shop once. so dont really know what that ones like

I use a basic mapex pedal with not much bounce on it at all, and i find that easier beacuse if youy have to much tension the pedal just bounces to much and ur foot can t keep up with it,

Most pedals have adjustable parts. They sometimes are black, about 2 inches tall, and rotate.

[RudimentalDrummer]

I'm really glad that I could help someone :-) Your welcome

Hey bro, you know what?...I tried it last night and the method you put up here works..not well, ... but damn blady well (sorry for using words like these) kekeke.

I was playing my Single Bass Pedal at the Fastest Speed I ever did. Me wify said "Wow...that's fast"...how did you do that...I said "Secret Dear"...hahaha.

I feel real good and I'm gonna practice it everyday from now on, at least spending 15 minutes on it. I started doing 1eta, 2eta ... and the wonder of this technique is - You can gain control of it.....I've learn - Knee Down 1st in making the 1st stroke is most important ...than use Ball of Toe ...

PS:- I didn't place my (Ball-Of Toe) at Centre of Pedal...it was slightly below the top of the Pedal...anyway..I feel very comfortable with that...just Great !

Thanks again my friend.

[Raymond Bloom]

Yeah, it's really cool feeling when you get the motion and some controll over it. I was excited at the first moment and actually I'm excited now either :DD
still have a long way to go! I started to practice this after seeing Jojo Mayer in clinics, you know seeing probably the best heel-toe player from a two feet distance was pretty damn shocking :D

[PocketBoy82]

yeah I have been practicing that technique for a while and now I can do it with my heel the ball of my foot and my toes.

[Stu_Strib]

Has anyone seen the Steve Smith version? On his 'History...' dvd he spends a large chunk of time describing his motion. His foot plays down, then he kind of 'lifts' his foot, maintaining contact, then he comes down again. Its almost as if his foot is connected and acts like a counter-cam shaft.

I'm not sure if its super fast, but it is easily the most solid and even fast technique I've seen. That JoJo style tends to get erratic at times with uneven volumes (the Blackwell one too). Smith's seems to give perfectly equal volume beats.

[Raymond Bloom]

That JoJo style tends to get erratic at times with uneven volumes (the Blackwell one too). Smith's seems to give perfectly equal volume beats.
I tell you Jojo's technique is that perfect that he can play whatever he wants at whatever volume or dynamics. The Steve Smith's heel-toe aproach is pretty much the same.

[Stu_Strib]

I tell you Jojo's technique is that perfect that he can play whatever he wants at whatever volume or dynamics. The Steve Smith's heel-toe aproach is pretty much the same.

Smith's foot doesn't go all floppy though. It maintains contact pretty much the whole time.

[Raymond Bloom]

Smith's foot doesn't go all floppy though. It maintains contact pretty much the whole time.
Yes, Jojo has a bit different approach but the idea and the basic motion is the same. It's for the sake of power, notice that Steve does it pretty light

[Rich]

Hey Guy's, I have a size 12 shoe and have no problem with heel toe technique. I don't use this method all the time while playing however, I use the toe most of the time. If I am doing some solo work I will use heel toe and solo over top that. When I use heel toe I use Vruk Pedals. You can check them out at vrukpedals.com Take care and have fun!
Rich

[Stu_Strib]

man you can probably get heel toe stompin' pretty fast with those things!

You can take the toe stop off of your iron cobras too, to give your foot more room.

Stu

[Icenn]

http://www.drummagazine.com/music/drummagdect05hi.mov

heres a heel toe vid using axis longboards

[BrokenGlass]

I wear a size 10 and a half and I still can't seem to get it down. I can hear every now and then the double beat of how its supposed to sound, but can't get it consistant.

[Slayer_metal_head]

My Pedal is the most expensive thing on my kit. 350 p122tw double bass pedal amazing pedal i dont do heel toe i have a size 12 foot and im still growing.....

[Raymond Bloom]

My Pedal is the most expensive thing on my kit. 350 p122tw double bass pedal amazing pedal i dont do heel toe i have a size 12 foot and im still growing.....

Read my previous posts
The size of your feet isn't important, if your toe fits on the footboard you can play using heel-toe technique :-)
!!!

[Drummertist]

I'm a size 11.5 and I can't use my heel on the the pedal because my foot's too big.

Any tips or suggestions or has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks

[hardhitter]

what pedal are you using ?

[Stu_Strib]

Do an advanced search. There are already several threads on this.

[Drummertist]

I'm using a Tama Iron Cobra Jr. pedal.

[Roger]

I'm a size 11.5 and I can't use my heel on the the pedal because my foot's too big.

Any tips or suggestions or has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks

I think you should try out another, bigger pedal ´cause many of the new pedals are so small that you just can´t do the heel-toe. I use an old mapex and it´s great.

[L20]

I just recorded some bass stuff using Jojo Mayers heel-toe technique. Click on the link below (it's the first video on the left of the page ) and tell me what you think.

http://www.myspace.com/inliber

P.S. - Is this the technique used to play fast singles on both feet?

[playplayplay]

I just recorded some bass stuff using Jojo Mayers heel-toe technique. Click on the link below (it's the first video on the left of the page ) and tell me what you think.

http://www.myspace.com/inliber

P.S. - Is this the technique used to play fast singles on both feet?



Sounds like your getting it, just try to keep it steady and count, 1234. you will get it! do it everyday and when you get tence, stop and start over, good luck my friend!

[L20]

Thanks for the advice

[Tim Waterson]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
NO I did not invent heel toe LOL
but I am the first one to have videos posted worldwide for drummers to learn this Simple technique and Now there are a Lot of videos showing heel and toe.
There is Nothing ballistic or Original about this technique it comes from tap dancing.
The WFD was kind enought to post a FREE tralier from my dvd and A LOT of drummers have learned the technique just from watching this trailer.
www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm
click on trailer fom Tims dvd
Hope this helps and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[franklinj]

Hey Guy's, I have a size 12 shoe and have no problem with heel toe technique. I don't use this method all the time while playing however, I use the toe most of the time. If I am doing some solo work I will use heel toe and solo over top that. When I use heel toe I use Vruk Pedals. You can check them out at vrukpedals.com Take care and have fun!
Rich

Wow, I could really use those. Would you more experienced players consider this cheating?
Btw, im 15, only 5'9, and wear about a size 12 shoe, and im sitll growing, and I have Eliminators. The footboards just not long enough.

[Rich]

Try going to VRUKPEDAL.COM I think your feet will fit now! Rich

[Risingdrummerwithnocash]

how exactly do you do the heel to toe method.. because im trying to build up my bass speed..if ne one has a video that would be great
thanks

[iconn]

Lots of posts around here about that, a think there's a couple videos as well, try using the search feature here, that will help alot. I personally don't use it, so I can't help you out much... but, yeah.

[LimaBeans]

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6143&page=2&highlight=heel

Originally Posted by jammaster

The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !

i pay lot's of attention to the way i feel when i play. Dont' squeeze. Be patient let it grow naturally...experiment,observe yourself, use your immagination, relax, relax, RELAX, be patient! It took me a long time to cultivate and master this technique, and as im trying to improve it's still a work in progress to this day..
Learning a new technique is like growing a rare tropical plant. It requires sensitivity and all the above more than just hours of mindless shedding...

To conclude : wathever you do with your feet, allways be aware of were your balance and center is. Try to stay balanced and relaxed, it's important to every aspect of your playing and it starts with the way you sit and your pedal work. It's easy to loose center when getting into that kinda' right foot stuff!

Good luck,
Jojo Mayer''

Also check out JoJo Mayer's video:
http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/jojomayerbasss.html

[Risingdrummerwithnocash]

i wear a shoe size of 9 1/2..what technique should i try?

[Risingdrummerwithnocash]

i wear a shoe size of 9 1/2..what technique should i try?
ne body have ne suggestions?

[Class A Drummer]

Play barefoot or with socks
there is nothing worng with
that. I do it all the time. But
then again i wear a size 9.5.
But im also 14.

[Class A Drummer]

How much does it cost to get the heel thing onto ur pedal???

[BigSexyPanda]

i saw the video from tiger bill. Is that about it? Thats about all there is to the heel-toe technique?

[Class A Drummer]

its been a few days since i asked this and one person has posted on this thread since and it has had nothing to do with my first question so i will ask it again.

How much does the heel thing cost to add to your pedal???

[Rich]

its been a few days since i asked this and one person has posted on this thread since and it has had nothing to do with my first question so i will ask it again.

How much does the heel thing cost to add to your pedal???

Please go to vrukpedal.com on the web and see all the information on these pedal attachments. Take care. Rich

[Dream_Theater06]

Hey guys, i'm having trouble with the heel-toe technique...so please help me...give me some pointers and stuff..........also help me with doube bass drumming...tnx

[TitanSound]

Please use the "Search" feature. You will find all your awnsers in threads that already exsist!

[Dream_Theater06]

oh sori......tnx man

[playplayplay]

well here we go again, there is alot of stuff out there on heel toe, if you got $$$ or you can surf around for threads or visit Tim Waterson's web site. I will try and help, heel toe to me means; complete balance while sitting in front of your kit. Find a compfortable position on your pedals and start to rock your foot heal to toe. These movements are very small, not lifting the feet to far from the pedals. Start slow, use metronome ALWAYS just try to find the teeder todder in the pedals if you know what i mean, "the sweet spot" if you are doing it correctly you will not be using alot of energy. This will take a while to develop but keep doing it every day and look around for double bass drummers and watch CLOSELY to what the feet are doing!

[Tim Waterson]

well here we go again, there is alot of stuff out there on heel toe, if you got $$$ or you can surf around for threads or visit Tim Waterson's web site. I will try and help, heel toe to me means; complete balance while sitting in front of your kit. Find a compfortable position on your pedals and start to rock your foot heal to toe. These movements are very small, not lifting the feet to far from the pedals. Start slow, use metronome ALWAYS just try to find the teeder todder in the pedals if you know what i mean, "the sweet spot" if you are doing it correctly you will not be using alot of energy. This will take a while to develop but keep doing it every day and look around for double bass drummers and watch CLOSELY to what the feet are doing!

Good POST
The WFD put up the FREE trailer for my dvd and it seems to have a ;lot of drummers
so here it is.http://www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm
Hope this helps and
God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[moparpunks]

ive been working on this technique for about a week. Im starting off real slow. something I noticed is that I can get a slightly different feel from going toe to heel. Is it bad to practice both ways?

[Tim Waterson]

ive been working on this technique for about a week. Im starting off real slow. something I noticed is that I can get a slightly different feel from going toe to heel. Is it bad to practice both ways?
NO do it both ways .
Heel toe is a natural transition if you play heel up.
For Heel down players toe to heel seems to work easier.
Good luck and God Bless
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[BigSexyPanda]

well i already posted this, but I saw the Tiger Bill video and I was wondering if that was about all there was to it. Besides all the little things you have to work on like exact positioning and of course practicing, but I was wondering if thats about all there is to it.

[pcmckay]

I am trying to learn the heel toe method because it makes a lot of sense. To me it is sort of the Moeller Technique for your foot, multiple sounds from one stroke. The problem that I am running into is that I wear a size 15 shoe, and it is hard for me to do the technique when my foot is the same size as the foot board. Anyone have suggestions or may know of another technique that would be easier for me to execute with the same results?

[Tim Waterson]

I am trying to learn the heel toe method because it makes a lot of sense. To me it is sort of the Moeller Technique for your foot, multiple sounds from one stroke. The problem that I am running into is that I wear a size 15 shoe, and it is hard for me to do the technique when my foot is the same size as the foot board. Anyone have suggestions or may know of another technique that would be easier for me to execute with the same results?
Try angling your foot sideways so the heel is off the pedal to the i8nside this will give you MORE surface area for your foot.
Moeller involves a whipping Motion same as the hands and Heel and toe is simply alternating between your heel and toe.
The WFD has put up a FREE trailer and you will seeas I go faster I use just my heels for the strokes The Toe stays on the pedal.
hope this helps Good Luck and God Bless
Tim
www.extremesportdrumming.com/wfdtv.htm
click on the trailer from my DVD

[brian_a_guzman]

Im a size 11 and i would also like to learn heel toe. My question is should i start the kicker with my toe and then use the heel?

[pcmckay]

Can the heel toe technique work with a Speedking Pedal or is it more suited for the more modern pedals?

[Raymond Bloom]

Can the heel toe technique work with a Speedking Pedal or is it more suited for the more modern pedals?
technique is technique it has nothing to do with equipment!

yeah, that's a good advice to angle your foot sideways, it's important to understand that the heel stroke is more a toe downstroke not a heel stroke

[pcmckay]

Thanks Tim for replying, great advice! Another question that I have is dealing with sitting. I sit as low as the drum throne will go, always have. Is it better to sit high in order to execute this technique or does it matter?

[Raymond Bloom]

try to allways maintain your legs paralel to the ground, sitting too low (or too high) isn't a good thing, think of gripping a stick too far back, it's of the ballance, besides, a friend of mine, a pro drummer who gigs a lot, told me that he liked to seat low but then started to have pain in the back so he began to sit higher which helped to get rid of that problem.

[Tim Waterson]

technique is technique it has nothing to do with equipment!

yeah, that's a good advice to angle your foot sideways, it's important to understand that the heel stroke is more a toe downstroke not a heel stroke

\JUST to corect the confusion...
but I have been teaching drummers Quite a while now and most get it from the WFD trailer....LOL
The HEEL in my videos is A FULL downstroke and the Toe is also a FULL upstroke
after you get the speed up the heel controls ALL the motion as the toe stays put this is why I coined the term Toe down strokes exactly the opposite of heel down....
hope this clears up the confusion.
Yes after you get the technique down you can raise you heel to control the bounce and then you are doing heel up controlled doubles.
The next phase is ta actually tap the doubles with your foot Like Virgil....
God Bless and Good Luck
Tim
www.timwaterson.com

[pcmckay]

Thanks to both of you for great advice.

[Raymond Bloom]

\JUST to corect the confusion...
but I have been teaching drummers Quite a while now and most get it from the WFD trailer....LOL
The HEEL in my videos is A FULL downstroke and the Toe is also a FULL upstroke
after you get the speed up the heel controls ALL the motion as the toe stays put this is why I coined the term Toe down strokes exactly the opposite of heel down....
hope this clears up the confusion.
Yes after you get the technique down you can raise you heel to control the bounce and then you are doing heel up controlled doubles.
The next phase is ta actually tap the doubles with your foot Like Virgil....
God Bless and Good Luck
Tim
www.timwaterson.com (http://www.timwaterson.com)
I guess we just didn't understand each other. What I ment is that the heel isn't making a stroke, it's the movement that makes the stroke, isn't it? The heel doesn't need to touch the footboard, this is what most of people are confused of, they think that the heel-toe technique is just heel-toe-heel-toe etc that's why there are so many people bragging about ''my feet are too big... etc''
I like to call the heel stroke as ''toe downstroke'' because even with the heel stroke, the surface of the foot that is in contact with the footboard when doing the heel stroke is the toe!

I hope you get my idea, I know we are talking about the same thing but whether my english knowledges (english is not my native language) or something else makes a confusion! :D

Anyway I like the way Jojo Mayer explains the heel-toe technique (this is what I'm trying to say :D link: http://www.jojomayer.com/html/faq_.html#PEDAL) :

''The basic idea is to generate the first "down"- stroke launched from your heel up position, generated from your knee, not your toes (important!).Followed by a 2nd " up"- stroke, generated by the calf. So your leg goes :
up-down, up-down,(bam-bam, bam-bam..).

It LOOKS's like a heel toe action but really it is kne (heel) -toe. That's the secret !''

[Raymond Bloom]

About seating, I liked what Jojo Mayer sayed at clinics, he allways talks about ballance points in drumsticks, arms, wrists, feet, legs etc, but about seating, he says that he haven't found the right ballance point and is still looking for the right seating position :D

Anyway, I think you should start from the basic position (legs paralel to the ground). When you get good at doing heel-toe, then you can start to experiment what is the best seating position, height etc It's like you can't play a paraddidle fill without actually learingn the paraddidle :-)

[jarrod]

It also helps if u can get a bit of power into your heal and toe because then u will get a littel rebound from the bass drum and leave your for it to rebound back of onto the bass durm again if u can understand that..... well it works for me althought i am not the best at the hole thing i am working on it...

[ReX]

Maybe it's me (it usually is...), but I can't find any video or anything else in the WFD site that demonstrates this. Can anyone clarify how this can be found?

thx and sry.

[drumz4eva]

IIRc Steve Smiths "History of the US beat" shows both heel toe and heel up.


i have steve smiths video, and im wondering is that the technique tim waterson uses, and the one everyone is talkignt about?
or is that a different one?

[drumz4eva]

hey, i was just wonderin if anyone has seen steve smiths video, (history of the us beat, and drum preformance ) In the video he deminstrates a kind of heel toe technique, is that the technique that is used like commenly in wfd, and theres alot of threads on?

or different?

[Tim Waterson]

hey, i was just wonderin if anyone has seen steve smiths video, (history of the us beat, and drum preformance ) In the video he deminstrates a kind of heel toe technique, is that the technique that is used like commenly in wfd, and theres alot of threads on?

or different?
DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

[drumz4eva]

cool, but if you do master steve smiths technique, is it just the same as the others, just alot cleaner? or what?

[(no-logo)]

proper heel toe encorporates one downstroke of the leg obviously,
but as a starting point to learning this technique, should one 'drop' the leg down to create the first stroke, combining with the toes or should one use purely toes?
im worried about developing wrong technique.

also, is it wrong to drop the heel too much to get that second stroke?

how would you guys explain how you do this, is it relaxed for the first stroke and then tensed to get the second?

i know there are similar right foot threads but they are all too vague.

[FloEy]

dude if it werks for you it works! I can do quads and straight sixteenths with one foot and if I have the wrong technique I can honestly care less.The same goes for the hands. People say that the fulcrum should have your index and thumb close together. For me I have my thumbs out. There is more then one way to hold a stick and there is more then one way to play a pedal. The one thing i will tell you is that there should be no tension with the heel toe. You should not be killing yourself to get the doubles going.

[tambian89]

My cousin's drum instructor has a technique which he showed me where he lifts and lowers his leg at the ankle, and each time he lifts or lowers his leg, he does a triplet. He is ridiculously fast. Anyone know of this or how to do it?

- Marc

[intooder]

DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

Tim, I thought you could use the Heel-Toe and still play singles. Is this not WFD-acceptable? Along the same lines, is the Moeller not acceptable for the Battle of the Hands?

[Tim Waterson]

proper heel toe encorporates one downstroke of the leg obviously,
but as a starting point to learning this technique, should one 'drop' the leg down to create the first stroke, combining with the toes or should one use purely toes?
im worried about developing wrong technique.

also, is it wrong to drop the heel too much to get that second stroke?

how would you guys explain how you do this, is it relaxed for the first stroke and then tensed to get the second?

i know there are similar right foot threads but they are all too vague.

There seems to be some confusion when drummers talk about heeltoe
Everyone has there OWN way to explain it.LOL.
For MY heel strokes to get a doubles or triple I simply drop my heel and control how many notes I want.I leave my toes planted as I can control the motion a lot longer and reach greater speeds if I DO NOT lift my toes.
IMHO you do NOT need tension on either the up or downstroke.
Hope this helps and Good Luck
Tim
do this for

[Tim Waterson]

Tim, I thought you could use the Heel-Toe and still play singles. Is this not WFD-acceptable? Along the same lines, is the Moeller not acceptable for the Battle of the Hands?
YES Heel toe can be used as singles if it is R heel L heel Rtoe Ltoe
I do this and have unofficially run over 1030 more than once at home so it does NOT count.
I have seen a few guys do this in prelims as well.
I'll speak to BOO on this.
As long as WE can see you are not doubling it should be OK
Tim

[BigSexyPanda]

well i already posted this, but I saw the Tiger Bill video and I was wondering if that was about all there was to it. Besides all the little things you have to work on like exact positioning and of course practicing, but I was wondering if thats about all there is to it.

I also read the jojo mayer article, so if i just follow these things and practice thats about it?

[DreamTheater4life]

Could someone please post a video of how to do the heel toe techinque? I've read descriptions but i still can't figure it out.

[drummer_wid_pulse]

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

[dawg]

heel to toe,dozie doh, swing her around and let er' go!!! eeehhaa!!!

[drummer_wid_pulse]

heel to toe,dozie doh, swing her around and let er' go!!! eeehhaa!!!

hahaha your funny....???

[Backwards Marathon]

hey nice post eh. 20 characters hehe

[DreamTheater4life]

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

"Hello, you either have JavaScript turned off or an old version of Macromedia's Flash Player, click here to get the latest flash player."

That's what it says...do you think your could upload it on putfile? I can watch everything on that. That is, if it's not too much to ask.

[DreamTheater4life]

I tried to download the new flash player but it wont let me :-(

[ZZ Thorn]

Real good video. Thanks a lot!

[DreamTheater4life]

ok now i downloaded the new flash player plug in thing and now it won't let me watch anything at all.

[tidge87]

drummer-wid-pulse, um with heel toe, do you just go really fast like in a continuous pattern like sixteenth notes? Or do you just play at the highest triplets in a row? Cause i can only do heel toe at the fastest like 2 hits.

[Redhead]

View the video in IE.

[DreamTheater4life]

View the video in IE.

What's IE? I really want to watch this video! It's making me angry!!!!

[xkevinx]

it's always said that it doesn't matter how big your feet are, you can still do heel toe. i recently upgraded my axis single with the longboard, but before that i would just angle my foot a bit off to the side (toes pointing off the pedal away from the snare) to fit the whole foot on there. it's easy to get discouraged when working on heel toe (im still not great but i know i'll get there soon). when you first start you're using different muscles than when just playing heel up or heel down, so you need to take time to develop those as much as the ones you commonly use.

[LimaBeans]

What's IE? I really want to watch this video! It's making me angry!!!!

IE = Internet Explorer

[fixmejesus]

Come on guys, this is a neat trick, but it does not sound natural. You are just bouncing off the heel pressure and rebounding with the toesie woesies. The natural bass resonance is missing due to the fact that the front head is tensioned when its hit the second time. No wonder why the bass is way muffled with a pillow or other tricks so the hits don't sound different. Try this with a bass drum with no muffling and you will see what I mean.No different from that one handed roll trick off the rim. Make the snare quieter and you will hear the damn rim shot.

A real drummer does not have to impress with tricks.
Just play the dammed thing the best you can with out the tricks then you will be impressive.

[fixmejesus]

Its funny how we had those "great drummers" here peddling there stupid DVD's with their infomercial type websites. "If you buy now, we'll discount these 2 DVDs!!.

Give me a break.

[fixmejesus]

Here i did a video while back trying to help a friend online

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6ZmskKcbFa8

Ok, now try this on a real bass drum with no muffling and post the video and sound, I dare you!

What are those, synnth bass drums you are playing there?

[FloEy]

YES Heel toe can be used as singles if it is R heel L heel Rtoe Ltoe
I do this and have unofficially run over 1030 more than once at home so it does NOT count.
I have seen a few guys do this in prelims as well.
I'll speak to BOO on this.
As long as WE can see you are not doubling it should be OK
Tim

Tim I have tried doing it that way but when i go to hit with my heel i kind of get a double instead of a single. I can do jo jo mayers stuff and I can do doubles fine but this single method isnt working out too well. Any ideas? thx

[rkettner]

The natural bass resonance is missing due to the fact that the front head is tensioned when its hit the second time.

If this were the case - then wouldn't any fast strokes do the same thing? The Heel-Toe Technique can be played without burying the beater... and thus it is just a factor of speed that would do what you are saying. I play the method with an unmuffled drum head, and it sounds completely normal to me.

In addition... if I want to bury the beater - I can get a different dynamic sound by doing so. Sometimes that option is nice.

[rkettner]

DRumz4eva
do a search Heel toe is the easiest way to go fast BUT,
Steve does Toe- Heel strokes that freddie Gruber showed him to get a more consistant sound.takes a LOT more disclipline to get right.
The WFD is ALL singles but we have had drummers do heel toe in the pre lims for fun and to try and beat my 1407.NO prizes just bragging rights if you do.
Good Luck
Tim

Tim,

Is your original 1407 done with singles or doubles? I remember you mentioning you were upwards of 1500 un-officially. Have you had a chance to record that since?

[Tim Waterson]

Tim I have tried doing it that way but when i go to hit with my heel i kind of get a double instead of a single. I can do jo jo mayers stuff and I can do doubles fine but this single method isnt working out too well. Any ideas? thx

The heel toe singlestrokes is YES harder for most to grasp.
But I have a student who does this with great control and I recieve lots of emails so I will showing CLOSEUPS on the NEW dvd.Hopefully ready in May.
I'll keep you posted..
Tim

[deltadrummer1]

I've got the heel toe technique down for the most part, but once I get done playing, the top of my foot hurts. Am I doing something wrong? I have noticed that I do tense up when playing the technique...but is that the reason for the pain in my foot?

[Tim Waterson]

I've got the heel toe technique down for the most part, but once I get done playing, the top of my foot hurts. Am I doing something wrong? I have noticed that I do tense up when playing the technique...but is that the reason for the pain in my foot?
Tensing up is causing stress on your foot slow down relax and bulid up your speed in increments of 10bpm
Tim

[Class A Drummer]

just wondering, is the heel toe method suppose to be "double stroking" with a bass drum? or is it possible to actually double stroke by hitting the head with the beater only once.

[cdawg_2010]

or is it possible to actually double stroke by hitting the head with the beater only once.
if you hit it once it would be a single because it hits one time. the heel toe is hitting with the heel and bringing your toe down for the double stroke

[Jeff Almeyda]

It's like tap dancing on the pedals.

[Blue]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

I don't know if someone has mentioned this already... but get the Axis Longboards that Chris Adler uses. He has big feet too, and he can do it on those pedals...

[beatsMcGee]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VjtMbQsUMS0&search=heel%20toe

there ya go folks

[LimaBeans]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VjtMbQsUMS0&search=heel%20toe

there ya go folks

Correct me if I'm not wrong, but you're NOT using the heel to produce the second stroke, correct? It appears that your heel is hitting the bass pedal in such a way that it wouldn't produce the second stroke. The ball-toe technique finally clicked with me the other day, and yes, it can be done with size 13 shoes on crappy gibraltar pedals that constantly fall apart.

[crazydrummer]

Heeey !!

Tony Royster Jr. doesn't use the heel/toe technique ! http://vicfirth.com/artists/royster.html : on this 3 awesome videos of his DVD, we can see that he use just the toe and not the heel! That's awesome and he has a very amazing speed!

[DrummerMom]

Just dropping into say hello.

Hey Rick and Tim.

[djp132]

My next video (due to be posted thursday or friday) will demystify the heel toe. I promise.

Derrick
djp132@gmail.com

[Chip]

YES! I have been eagerly awaiting this video, I thought your next was for left hand weakness, but it's heeltoe, YES!


Also, this "buy-longboards-if-you're-feet-are-too-big" thing is getting a bit tedious. It has been proven that you don't need to fit your whole foot to do it effeciently. It's not the heel actually making the stroke. Even Jojo says it.

[k3ng]

I've read the Jojo explanation over and over and seen the vidoes over and over... but i still don't quite get it.

My first question is this though,

when you do the heel stroke, which part of the foot is touching the pedal all the way down? And what is it spose to feel like? cos most of the time i tend to have my heel crashing down on the floor...

Secondly, on the toe stroke, how does the stroke happen in order to prepare for the next heel stroke? Again, what's it spose to feel like on the pedals?

[retco]

I'm not sure if anyone has already described this in this thread, but an alternate to heel-toe is to bounce the pedal off the ball of your foot, meaning - you hit the pedal the first time with the ball of your foot - let it rebound off the drum - and hit it again with the ball of your foot. I started out playing heel-toe but naturally progressed to playing this way, I think for me it is both faster and more efficient, perhaps it will be similar for others. cheers

[retco]

I retract my last post, I went and played today to see if that was in fact what i was doing, and I found that I am still doing a heel toe motion but it is much less pronounced than it used to be - I found that I am almost slapping the pedal for the double kick with my foot almost flat against the pedal rather than rolling from heel to toe, however the momentum for the pedal on the first hit is coming mostly from the heel area of the foot while the momentum for the second hit is coming mostly from the ball area of my foot.

[CosmicKeys]

cool thread ! I'm learning a lot of stuff !

[DoubleBassUrFace]

seems like a good idea, but, how do i de-tention my springs. i have a dw 7000 double pedal.

i used to think that having more tension on springs = faster pedals but from DVDs and also at drummerlive2005 i saw that it was the opposite. since then i have detensioned my springs to the extent that my beatere swings back and forth for at least ten seconds after i leave it and voila i'm suddenly a lot faster and have more endurance. seems obvious to me now.


j


ps: sorry guys but i had to remove the link to the heel toe method as it is copyrighted and its owner specifically asked me to do it. please only post public stuff (videos that are available on quite a few sites). it is hard to tell i know, but if something has good quality sound, size and is as long as this video was then you can be sure that it is meant to be bought. who knows, one day you will want to make an instructional clip and then want paying. and on top of that we don't want Drummerworld to be sued. protect the forum please.

[fixmejesus]

Congradulations all! With the last video, the heel-toe has been demystified.

Now eveyone make make their bass drum beats sound like farts!
The faster, the more fart like soung you can make. Wonderful!

[Martal]

Now,when i ask this,please dont get me wrong.Im not one of those types of people who tried doing the HeelToe for 5 seconds and said ''Cant do it,my feet are to big''.

My feet are seriously too big,i can do heel toe on my old Tama HP200 without any shoes QUITE well (Why quite and not very?Because my toes are against the chain). Now,when i try to do it with my shoes on it just becomes impossible.You know that thing that in the end of the pedal,where you supposedly put your heel when playing heeldown?Well,my foot ends there when the nose of my shoe is against the chain already.

So,thats my quetion/rant.For awhile i heard there was a video that showed a way to do it without having your foot completely on the board.Anyone know of that or any other tips on Heeltoe'ing with big feet?

Thx

[jarrod]

Ok you dont need your foor near the chain at all i can do the heal and toe with my big toe and the very back on the pedal but its not that good back there but i havnt practised it back there.

These videos are great for heal and toe and double bass

http://www.pearldrummersforum.com/showthread.php?t=100222

[Vic_Rattledeth]

Okay so I tryed heel toe for the very first time today and....I nailed it! It's actually quite easy once you get the motion, I was doing doubles at about 200 bpm. I'm really happy....:D

[Jared_Falk]

I believe that the Heel - Toe technique is the ultimate way to develop speed, power, and endurance on the drumkit. I also believe that you should have worked through your single stroke roll before moving onto your doubles. You will probably use singles more thank doubles. It's a great tool to have in your drummers toolbox though.

[baddrumming]

Could someone please post a reply to this problem.

As many of you are probably aware there have been some video clips supplied by a drum tutor from pittsburg US concerning the Heel toe method. This is a technique i thought could improve my double stoke rolls so i set about to learn it. After a few days of practise messing around i felt comfortable with this technique at speeds of 185bpm +. However this on my electronic kit! when it comes to converting this technique to my friends acoustic kit the second stroke of the double is a lot quieter than the first hence an uneven double stroke bass drum roll. How is possible to execute an even sounding roll on the bass drum of an acoustic kit?? The Method heel toe suggests that the heel stroke is obviously more powerful than the toe stroke. This is fine on an electronic kit as the quieter sounds can also be registered and sound the same as the Heel stroke. Can Someone please share some advice towards creating an even roll on an acoustic kit. I use an IRON COBRA Double pedal by the way. THANX

[Tim Waterson]

Could someone please post a reply to this problem.

As many of you are probably aware there have been some video clips supplied by a drum tutor from pittsburg US concerning the Heel toe method. This is a technique i thought could improve my double stoke rolls so i set about to learn it. After a few days of practise messing around i felt comfortable with this technique at speeds of 185bpm +. However this on my electronic kit! when it comes to converting this technique to my friends acoustic kit the second stroke of the double is a lot quieter than the first hence an uneven double stroke bass drum roll. How is possible to execute an even sounding roll on the bass drum of an acoustic kit?? The Method heel toe suggests that the heel stroke is obviously more powerful than the toe stroke. This is fine on an electronic kit as the quieter sounds can also be registered and sound the same as the Heel stroke. Can Someone please share some advice towards creating an even roll on an acoustic kit. I use an IRON COBRA Double pedal by the way. THANX

Just let the heel drop you dont need to slam it and roll the toes forward by raising the heel and the volume will even itself out.
Takes practice to get it even but go SLOW..
Good luck and God Bless
Tim

[CASP3Rdrummer]

is the heel toe technique done on the hihat?

[JWM]

After some investigation of the H/T method myself by way of the Pope vid and Tim's WFD vid (and others circulating on YouTube), I'm currently unable to do it with my current DW pedal. I have a size 11 foot, and even at an angle I cannot get enough leverage to properly execute the heel stroke. I'll have to wait until I get a longboard.

For the time being, I'm using the Steve Smith "controlled release" approach, which Pope also describes. It's not quite H/T, but it is the natural motion for accenting a downstroke or first note of a double, etc. In fact, I find that it's the obvious motion to make for playing first note accents, which helps for dynamic bass drum playing (I'm currently only using single pedal). It ends up mirroring the motion of the hands... almost the Moeller technique for the feet (whereas H/T might be the feet equivalent of the freehand technique). For controlled release, the toes essentially stay on the footboard, in a "resting" position as the leg drops for the first accented note (which I find to almost be a "flat" stroke). I've seen exercises for this that notate "L" for leg stroke and "U" or "T" for heel up/toe stroke.

Any thoughts, Tim?

[JWM]

is the heel toe technique done on the hihat?
Derek Roddy has an example of it on his site.

It's pretty cool...

derekroddy.com

[JWM]

BTW... I've also been putting some thought into a sort of "half stroke," which is a stream of toe strokes in the heel up position. I find myself doing this for the hand/foot blast of singles where you play 16ths or 8th triplets with one hand and then play the bass drum off of it (the blast beat basically). Since I'm doing maybe one bar of it, I do steady half strokes with the hand and foot for a "flat" stream of notes.

[CASP3Rdrummer]

Derek Roddy has an example of it on his site.

It's pretty cool...

derekroddy.com

where? i cant find it . can you please post a direct link of it?

[Tim Waterson]

After some investigation of the H/T method myself by way of the Pope vid and Tim's WFD vid (and others circulating on YouTube), I'm currently unable to do it with my current DW pedal. I have a size 11 foot, and even at an angle I cannot get enough leverage to properly execute the heel stroke. I'll have to wait until I get a longboard.

For the time being, I'm using the Steve Smith "controlled release" approach, which Pope also describes. It's not quite H/T, but it is the natural motion for accenting a downstroke or first note of a double, etc. In fact, I find that it's the obvious motion to make for playing first note accents, which helps for dynamic bass drum playing (I'm currently only using single pedal). It ends up mirroring the motion of the hands... almost the Moeller technique for the feet (whereas H/T might be the feet equivalent of the freehand technique). For controlled release, the toes essentially stay on the footboard, in a "resting" position as the leg drops for the first accented note (which I find to almost be a "flat" stroke). I've seen exercises for this that notate "L" for leg stroke and "U" or "T" for heel up/toe stroke.

Any thoughts, Tim?

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim

[JWM]

where? i cant find it . can you please post a direct link of it?
http://www.derekroddy.com/Dereks_Link_Folder/HiHatDemo.wmv

Cheers bud...

[Jared_Falk]

Great vid Tim! Those Axis pedals are great for that. I can play that way on my Axis pedals...but have difficulty doing it on my Yamaha or Iron Cobra pedals. I'll turn my foot sideways, but it doesn't sound consistent.

[CASP3Rdrummer]

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim

ahem the video is nice but THATS TOO TOUGH for me :(

[JWM]

heres a quick vid I made of Heel toe motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM
My toes do stay on the footboard...
Hope this helps
Tim
Tim--

Thanks very much for that. I just have to say man... your openness in the community in helping us with our feet has been a real blessing...

After watching the vid, I feel that that is essentially what I'm doing. I find it easier NOT to start with the beater against the head personally, but like you described, I am getting that initial second hit as well... so that's a good sign.

What I'm also getting is that you're NOT doing an actual note with the HEEL... i.e. the heel isn't an isolated stroke like Pope describes it (and I'm going to trust yours as you have the record!). Your toes stay on the board the whole time. I couldn't really see the length of the board, but when you backed your foot up, it actually looks as though your heel ISN'T on the board, am I correct? If that's the case, then this proves that the heel in H/T is more of a MOTION rather than an actual stroke? And the toes are in fact doing every stroke?

[baddrumming]

Thank You Tim

I feel very humbled to have had you answer my question (the man with the worlds fastest feet). Just being able to communicate with you i feel is an honour. So once again thank you.


P.S The video was also a massive help.

[Tim Waterson]

Tim--

Thanks very much for that. I just have to say man... your openness in the community in helping us with our feet has been a real blessing...

After watching the vid, I feel that that is essentially what I'm doing. I find it easier NOT to start with the beater against the head personally, but like you described, I am getting that initial second hit as well... so that's a good sign.

What I'm also getting is that you're NOT doing an actual note with the HEEL... i.e. the heel isn't an isolated stroke like Pope describes it (and I'm going to trust yours as you have the record!). Your toes stay on the board the whole time. I couldn't really see the length of the board, but when you backed your foot up, it actually looks as though your heel ISN'T on the board, am I correct? If that's the case, then this proves that the heel in H/T is more of a MOTION rather than an actual stroke? And the toes are in fact doing every stroke?

This is the part that confuses drummers.
YES My HEEL is making the stroke.
when I slide past the footplate the upper part of my heel still makes contact.
when I do my WFD doubles the heels are controlling the strokes and the toes just remain stationary.
At the begiining of the clip I am rocking me heel and toe in a constant release style similar to Steve Smith although Steve Smith goes Toe first and then heel.
Freddie told me and he was very adament about Steve doing it that way?
Whatever works..
Hope this explains the confusion.
God Bless
Tim

[JWM]

This is the part that confuses drummers.
YES My HEEL is making the stroke.
when I slide past the footplate the upper part of my heel still makes contact.
when I do my WFD doubles the heels are controlling the strokes and the toes just remain stationary.
At the begiining of the clip I am rocking me heel and toe in a constant release style similar to Steve Smith although Steve Smith goes Toe first and then heel.
Freddie told me and he was very adament about Steve doing it that way?
Whatever works..
Hope this explains the confusion.
God Bless
Tim
Okay... that does clear up the confusion. It feels "officially" cleared up now that you've said it!

Throughout my practice routine today, I've been finding that the upper part of my heel makes contact as well... as my toes stay stationary. And it also seems to be the constant release style. There does seem to be a few different interpretations as to the mechanics, but I'm quite sure I'm on the right path. The toes thing seems to be the real key. Maybe I can post a vid soon and you can take a look?

But keep up the great work and thanks again for your generosity...

Blessings,
Johnny

[JWM]

Thank You Tim

I feel very humbled to have had you answer my question (the man with the worlds fastest feet). Just being able to communicate with you i feel is an honour. So once again thank you.


P.S The video was also a massive help.
I'd like to second this!

[timfel]

Hi Derrick,

Hope you're getting better. Came across your heel-toe video yesterday and thought it was fantastic. It had a perfect answer to a problem (getting fast doubles) that I've had for ages, which hasn't really got much better despite a lot of practice. Your method made perfect sense and your teaching style is superb, thank you very much.

Full of enthusiasm, I rushed to my kit to try this new method which I was convinced was the answer to all my prayers. Got sat down at the kit, everything in place, ran through it in my head, all ready to practice this new motion.

I raised my heel as instructed, dropped it for the first stroke... nothing. Nada! My heel hit the heelplate which is not hinged and made not a sound - the pedal didn't operate. Toe was fine, but the heel was silent. I thought this must be what all those guys mean when they say their feet are too big. Tried ramming my toes into the chain drive, but that didn't sound right. I thought all those guys who said it didn't work unless you had small feet must be right! Very disappointed, I retired for the night.

And then I remembered to trust you! You said it didn't matter what size your feet are so I thought about it and went back again. I found it - eureka! When you drop your heel, you're not actually operating the pedal with your heel as I mistakenly thought, but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot. So your heel does hit the floor and that doesn't make a noise, but your foot presses the pedal and that does. I think the name is misleading - I was taking it literally trying to operate the pedal with my heel, rather than feeling the motion and almost letting the pedal operate itself. Having grasped that, it all seems to work very well now!

Would you agree with my findings? Maybe this will help all those people who think their feet are too big. There's a lesson there - trust the teacher!

[JWM]

Hi Derrick,

Hope you're getting better. Came across your heel-toe video yesterday and thought it was fantastic. It had a perfect answer to a problem (getting fast doubles) that I've had for ages, which hasn't really got much better despite a lot of practice. Your method made perfect sense and your teaching style is superb, thank you very much.

Full of enthusiasm, I rushed to my kit to try this new method which I was convinced was the answer to all my prayers. Got sat down at the kit, everything in place, ran through it in my head, all ready to practice this new motion.

I raised my heel as instructed, dropped it for the first stroke... nothing. Nada! My heel hit the heelplate which is not hinged and made not a sound - the pedal didn't operate. Toe was fine, but the heel was silent. I thought this must be what all those guys mean when they say their feet are too big. Tried ramming my toes into the chain drive, but that didn't sound right. I thought all those guys who said it didn't work unless you had small feet must be right! Very disappointed, I retired for the night.

And then I remembered to trust you! You said it didn't matter what size your feet are so I thought about it and went back again. I found it - eureka! When you drop your heel, you're not actually operating the pedal with your heel as I mistakenly thought, but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot. So your heel does hit the floor and that doesn't make a noise, but your foot presses the pedal and that does. I think the name is misleading - I was taking it literally trying to operate the pedal with my heel, rather than feeling the motion and almost letting the pedal operate itself. Having grasped that, it all seems to work very well now!

Would you agree with my findings? Maybe this will help all those people who think their feet are too big. There's a lesson there - trust the teacher!
What you described was also my experience with a size 11 foot on a standard DW pedal. There's no way for my heel to actually play the pedal itself (at least my entire heel). And as you also described--

...but the action of dropping your heel causes your foot to drop and the pedal is operated actually with the middle of the foot.

That's essentially what I find myself doing. Or it also may still be a toe stroke, but a "downstroke" movement for it with the middle portion of the foot making contact with the pedal as well (it almost feels like a "flat" stroke to me!). Some seem to define that as the "constant release" technique that Steve Smith is known for using (and I believe JoJo Mayer does this as well). Tim Waterson's explanation seems to almost fall somewhere in between.

But this much I know... my initial goal was to be able to accent the first note of a double or triple stroke (such as 1e and/or 1e&) with ease. As I started working on it with a metronome (and this BEFORE I even knew all that much about the heel/toe method), I found myself instinctively making what seems to be the constant release movement. I keep the toes on the pedal the whole time, drop the heel for the first accented note and then play a heel up stroke for the second unaccented note (which sets me up to bring the heel down again). But again, the toes stay on the pedal the whole time, and the heel is making contact with the plate, not the pedal itself (although a bit of the top of the heel may be coming into contact... but it's certainly not a FULL stroke with the heel itself).

Whatever method this is specifically, I can say that it is enabling me to accent the first note of a double or triple stroke with great ease. And that's all I really care about now, because I'm kind of getting a little tired of all the particulars of the method/technique! :-)~

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

Okay, so I have to know: does my freak size 13 foot condemn me to singles for my whole life? Or is the Axis longboard big enough for that?

[Raymond Bloom]

Okay, so I have to know: does my freak size 13 foot condemn me to singles for my whole life? Or is the Axis longboard big enough for that?
Feet size doesn't matter, you can do heel-toe on particulary any bass drum pedal with any size of your feet if executed the right way!

[jeanke]

Hi

Does anyone have a video or something that shows the proper way to do the heel toe method for playing the bass drum?
I'm not sure that the way that i am trying it is the proper way.

Any help will be much appreciated(sp).



if you look in the drum clinic of this site you can find videos of derrick pope explainig verry well how it works

[Murderdolls172]

I 've been have some difficulties with heel toe tring to get out triplets and differnet patterns for heel toe,(Heel Toe Method ).If theres any patterns or such for the heel toe that anybody knowswould really help. Thanks

[Gravy]

Do you have a double bass? Wit a double bass, it should be relatively easy. With a single, like I have, I can make a slow triplet by kicking my heel forward against the back of the pedal and then putting the toe down after two beats. Probably not the best way, though. If anyone else has a better way, please share. :)

[JWM]

I 've been have some difficulties with heel toe tring to get out triplets and differnet patterns for heel toe,(Heel Toe Method ).If theres any patterns or such for the heel toe that anybody knowswould really help. Thanks
What do you mean by triplets? The last two notes of sextuplets? (i.e. such as before a snare accent?)

For me, the "heel/toe" method is really Steve Smith's "constant release" technique. I really think it's different things for different people, and it depends on the size of your foot. For me, since I have long feet, it's dropping the heel with the leg (the heel doesn't actually make much contact with the board, but more of the plate at the end... so it's more of a "full foot" stroke) and then playing a heel up stroke with the toes.

You just have to experiment, but it's very important to start SLOWLY... and with the metronome. Once I started to get it, I realized that this is the most exciting thing ever for my feet. It adds so much of a solid and smooth quality to your playing to accent the first note of doubles, triple strokes and even longer phrases of notes.

[Josh is a cult]

i do the same thing you do JWM but i dont think thats technically heel toe..but it works!
=]

[JWM]

i do the same thing you do JWM but i dont think thats technically heel toe..but it works!
=]
Absolutely.

But Tim Waterson seems to describe his heel/toe as a "constant release" thing, even going so far as to say that his entire heel isn't even on the board.

For me, heel/toe is more of a motion than anything.

But it's really a wonderful technique that is expanding the musicality of the bass drum!

[Josh is a cult]

definately
twenty...

[MOONCHILD]

maybe a lot of Iron Maiden can help just try to keep up with Nicko and results must show

[Jeff Almeyda]

There seem to be two different "Heel-toe" methods.

One is the Gadd, Steve Smith "constant release " thing.

The other is the heel toe double stroke a la Chris Adler. Tim Waterson seems to do this when he's going for high-speed doubles.

Can anyone shed some more light on this? Are they really two different techniques or are they just variations of the same thing?

[Murderdolls172]

yea thanks I've found a way, But yea i think theres a difference between Heel toe and constant release. I think of heel toe more of a rocking motion and constant release dosen't really have a rocking motion. But thanks for all the help

[rkettner]

I put together a simple demo video of this a few years back... but can't seem to find it on my PC anymore. Basically... I use heel-pad-toe to produce a triplet pattern. Never bothered to get it very solid (as I didn't use it in a musical context), but it definately had some promise.

[rkettner]

There seem to be two different "Heel-toe" methods.

One is the Gadd, Steve Smith "constant release " thing.

The other is the heel toe double stroke a la Chris Adler. Tim Waterson seems to do this when he's going for high-speed doubles.

Can anyone shed some more light on this? Are they really two different techniques or are they just variations of the same thing?

They are essentially two different techniques... but quite blendable. Personally I don't find much use for the Steve Smith method - although it's cool for single pedal setups. The double stroke method gives much more benefit IMO. Just as the double stroke for your hands makes for more speed than trying to turn that into a continual motion - the heel-toe double stroke for the feet produces more speed (when used with two pedals).

[FloEy]

Yeah I can do everything jo jo mayer can do in that little video he has here on drummerworld and I can say that even when using a double pedal my heels are pretty much hitting that bottom. The heel does pretty much all of the work and the toes are just a natural reaction that is actually unnoticebly done.

[Raymond Bloom]

Yeah I can do everything jo jo mayer can do in that little video he has here on drummerworld and I can say that even when using a double pedal my heels are pretty much hitting that bottom. The heel does pretty much all of the work and the toes are just a natural reaction that is actually unnoticebly done.
Hey, do you have a video of you doing some heel-toe stuff? Not that I don't belive, just it would be cool to see!

[Tim Waterson]

Hey everybody
Derek Pope (THe Technique expert ) and I have been talking...OH NO....LOL
we are both getting emails and aparently some drummers are still confused about how to do heel toe if your foot is a bit bigger?
here is a quick clip showing my demonstration hope this helps to clear up the confusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoPv1oM6vZM

Tim

[Raymond Bloom]

Great stuff, Tim! I hope this will finally clear out all these ''my feet are too big, I can't do the heel-toe!!!!''

This should be a sticky thread

[JWM]

Tim--

Thanks so much for that bro! Really fantastic explanation. Pope's is obviously a really great explanation too, but I got more from yours, especially since you talked a little about Virgil's toe tapping (he seems to really use that for the inverted doubles). I'm feeling a real sense of perspective now about the feet.

Thanks much for your contributions. You're a gift man.

BTW, nice bare foot. Makes me think of that line from Pulp Fiction, "Would you ever consider giving a guy a foot massage?"

Who wouldn't want to massage Tim's feet?

[FloEy]

sadly i dont but would I need anyway? Just a camera that can upload things on to the computer? Srry Im not the most knowledgeable on this kind of stuff.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Tim--

Who wouldn't want to massage Tim's feet?

What???!!!??? Maybe you should put this in the "off-topic lounge".

[Jivi]

Great but vid as always but can you still do the same thing without an Axis pedal?

[JWM]

What???!!!??? Maybe you should put this in the "off-topic lounge".
Hey, you're telling me you wouldn't like to touch the world's fastest feet?

[millerdakiller]

try sliding the first two beats and then using your heel on the third beat of the triplet.

I don't use the heel/toe because my foots too big so if this doesn't work I'm sorry.

[Raymond Bloom]

I don't use the heel/toe because my foots too big
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14867

[djp132]

Great but vid as always but can you still do the same thing without an Axis pedal?

Yes. I use Eliminators and Cobras and I get the same outcome. The point to be made here is that ANYONE can do this technique regardless of foot size or brand of pedal. Study this video and his others as I believe they are the best out there for demonstrating this technique, and understand the motions. Tim is the man, he knows what he's talking about.

[Tim Waterson]

Yes. I use Eliminators and Cobras and I get the same outcome. The point to be made here is that ANYONE can do this technique regardless of foot size or brand of pedal. Study this video and his others as I believe they are the best out there for demonstrating this technique, and understand the motions. Tim is the man, he knows what he's talking about.

Thanks for the props Derek.
I think beween yours and my clips drummers should have a better understanding about heel and toe.I always refer drummers to your clips as well..
Do you think my boots were BIG enough? LOL

I also started on other pedals I first tried heel toe probably by accident on a Ghost pedal or speed king I believe and then a drummer reintroduced the method to me in the early 80s and I was using the OLD grey pearl chain drive at the time.
Tim

[JWM]

I sometimes can't believe the LACK of ego displayed here by everyone...

I am so proud to be a drummer right now.

[Vic_Rattledeth]

I think Tim needs his own sticky thread. :P I'll be sure to check out your dvd when it comes out.

[JWM]

I think Tim needs his own sticky thread. :P I'll be sure to check out your dvd when it comes out.
Nah... let him join the line up with the rest of us =)~

We're ALL on the path, right?

Not that Tim isn't amazing though!

[Martal]

This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx

[TheSteve]

This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx



What's the difference? He just explained how to do it. If you don't have a great pedal like that, then practice and build your chops instead of letting the pedal do all the work.

[Tim Waterson]

[QUOTE=Martal]This is all fine and all but i think most people want to see how you do it with a big shoe on a NON-AXIS pedal.

thx[/QUote.
I am AXIS's #1 Ambassador, why would I want to demo other pedals?.LOL
Tim

[Martal]

What's the difference? He just explained how to do it. If you don't have a great pedal like that, then practice and build your chops instead of letting the pedal do all the work.


Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?

[Tim Waterson]

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?
To help drummers But Axis and I are family.
Tim

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Come on guys, Tim's doing you all a favour. Seriously. He's already said it's possible on all pedals and I for one believe him. If you don't like the fact that he uses Axis then don't rag on him about it. He's done a hell of a lot for our community...

[TheSteve]

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?



To teach people who want to learn. Don't mind the pedal, watch his feet, that's the whole point.

[Raymond Bloom]

Then whats the point of posting the video in the first place?
Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum pedal should it's fine for heel-toe

[TheSteve]

Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum epdal should it's fine for heel-toe



Thank you! Someone with a brain!

[G-manMET]

My toesies get shreddied up on the chain from time to time, when I do heel-toe.

[poisonpage]

I started doing the heel-toe naturally, but I have size 13 feet, so I started hitting the end or the chain (sometimes). I thought I was doing it wrong! It feels kinda weird and I can't sustain it like crazy Jojo Mayer can but the best i can do is squeeze out a 4-stroke ruff (I do the 1+ a 2 as a triplet). I can also play that crazy triplet pattern on the kick that he does in one of the videos. I had to take the toe guard off the top of my Pearl P-1002 pedal because I wasn't able to properly execute the technique. So many problems.....I then started using the slave pedal to get what I needed.

[Martal]

Why do you think this is a special technique for an Axis pedal?

Technique is just technique, as long as the pedal is decent quality and woks as a bass drum pedal should it's fine for heel-toe


I was just saying that people want to see it done on NON-Axis pedals,as evidenced by previous posts in Tim's threads

[JIM_fear]

Feet size doesn't matter, you can do heel-toe on particulary any bass drum pedal with any size of your feet if executed the right way!
That's absolutely true. I have size 16 feet and i can do it just fine so size is not a factor if done correctly.

[tambian89]

That's absolutely true. I have size 16 feet and i can do it just fine so size is not a factor if done correctly.

MY GOD!

Anyway: I recently tried the heel toe technique based upon Tim Waterson's short demo. Despite my first thoughts about this technique, I found the motion very easy, and it is quite easy to practice. However, I have to practice cleaning up the notes, as they become slurred and often turn into flam patterns.

I mainly use this technique for triplets with my right foot (mainly Zeppelin tunes).

- Marc

[k3ng]

Ok tiny question.

I've been practising alot on a stock Tama Swingstar pedal (just so you know what pedal I'm using) and I keep banging my heel on the heel plate. Help?

Also, when you're going down on the heel stroke, on a heel plated pedal lets say, which part of your foot actually makes contact with the pedal? THe ball of the foot or the entire surface of the foot?
And when going back up with the toe stroke, is it more like the up stroke when you play with the hands? as in leg moves up and the toe just taps the footboard.

I'm trying my best to understand this technique. Thanks for any input

[TitanSound]

I have found that removing the toe-stop on my eliminator helps as I have fairly large feet.

Trouble is though I have not mastered heel toe so I prefer to work on it at home with my crappy old pedal and not waste rehearsal time by focusing on me and not playing as solid as I could!

[The popes love child]

So, when can we expect the Tim Waterson Derek Pope drum battle?

[domnjozz]

Awesome!

So is there any definitive word on the difference between heel/toe barefoot or with shoes? pros/cons of each?

What is the best way to practice the motion away from the drumset? I have a futz under my desk @ work and I have a long train commute from NJ to NYC where I can try to train my muscle memory.

What about flat foot?

Is there a difference in the motion between "heel-toe" "rocking motion" and "constant release"? or are they different words to explain the same technique?

Thanks so much for the video with the closeups. I know we are all getting a lot out of the videos you keep posting.

Howie
www.myspace.com/howietherockstar

[LimaBeans]

It doesn't matter what brand you use...I can do heel-toe on a Pearl P-100, a Gibraltar pedal that falls apart after playing about 5 minutes, and a Tama Iron Cobra. What I find that helps is to practice heel-toe with your foot approaching the pedal from the side. This way only the front half of your foot will be on the pedal.

Thanks for the video Tim. I've been confused about the concept of using the heel for a while now. Now I know that heel-toe and what I used to refer to as toe-ball are the exact same thing! It just got really confusing with different people's perspectives on the use of the heel. This video cleared everything up for me; however, I still think that heel-toe is a misleading name for the technique.

[Miggle]

I have size 8 feet. I've yet to see the video (slow connection) but i've been trying all sorts of pedal technique with my feet. Even with size 8, I really couldn't do the heel-toe technique where you actually hit the pedal with your heel. I dont think you do that. What I do is use my toes, then drop the cheek bone under my toe, toe, drop, toe, drop. I eventually got the drops to sound the same. And its not really tiring as compared with all toe playing.

With that, i have concluded that it doesnt really matter if you have a size 12 or 15.. maybe not size 20 or what pedal you use (I have gibraltar 5600).

hope this helps

[chops4kicks]

Do those of you who have the video think its worth the 10 bucks?? http://www.heeltoetechnique.com/

OKAY COULD SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME OUT ALL I HAVE BEEN SEEING IS THIS 10 DOLLAR THING BUT ALL I EVER SEE ON THE LINK IS A BASS SECRETS DRUM PACK FOR $50 COULD SOMEONE WRITE ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE EXPLAINING THIS PLEASE

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Three words. Don't do it.

[n2xlr8n]

I've recently starting practicing this technique; I've been playing heel-up for >15 yrs.

I'm in agreement that the success of the technique has nothing to do with pedal manufacturer or foot size. I've got 11.5s with DW 9000 series (which seems like a smallish footboard), and the motion happens, even with my heel off the hinge-end of the footboard.

Hope this helps!

SRJ

[k3ng]

We'll I've finally gotten the heel toe technique to work (goddamit I never realised it was so ^%($*%*(@#$& SIMPLE!! Thank you Tim Waterson and Derrick Pope!!)

I'm getting very nice and smooth doubles using the heel toe method. It's awesomely quick, and very much more relaxed.

The small problem I have is with the constant release of it to create a constant flow of notes (like in Tim Waterson's big boot video..). I'm now forcing a lot of control on it to get spread out notes, but that's caused me to go so slow, tapping my feet normally is even faster than heel toe. I need some help on the constant release practice. (I'm using 1 pedal btw, so I really want to learn this instead of just doubles on the pedal)

How does the motion slow down and constantly go up and down at the same speed? I'm getting a little too used to banging my heel down and then immediately using the toe stroke to get quick doubles. So what next? Is it normal to do the constant releasing really really really slowly first? (Kind of like how I used the Gladstone for 1 handed rolls last time...)