THE HEEL TOE THREAD

[drumbandit]

hey what is the whole heel toe technique iv heard about? i'd really like to learn if it helps control and speed

[beatsMcGee]

hey what is the whole heel toe technique iv heard about? i'd really like to learn if it helps control and speed

there are tons of threads concerning this, and many videos as well.. use the search button

[drumbandit]

i got the heel toe technique in about 5 mins cheers

[DavexCurcio]

This technique looks like it works real well, it's just gonna take me some time.

[NUTHA JASON]

cool. i've been practicing steve smith's constant release heel toe technique for a month and i can keep 260 very even strokes with my right foot in a minute and can keep going nearly indefinitely. the technique feels better at higher speeds ...like my foot is floating over the pedal and because of the way the heel moves i feel very balanced on my throne with no leaning forwards or backwards.
as a discipline i am keeping my left foot playing every second note (130b/min) and once i am comfortable i am stuffing around with rudiments over the toms and snare. i am also trying the basic double bass beats but with one pedal and at these speeds (130ish). i am also trying dynamic patterns while keeping the beats with the right foot steady. all good at speeds between 120 and 135.

this is an excellent result. my target is to play 360 even dynamic strokes with the right per minute while doing complex other stuff with the other four limbs. when i get up there i'l post a vid for fun.

j

ps: in other words i highly recommend the constant release technique.

[Never Stop! woohoo!]

The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?

By the way, if anyone wants to hear some crazy heel-toe used in a song, listen to "Blinded in Chains" by Avenged Sevenfold.

http://www.myspace.com/neverstop

[cornilion]

i want someone to somehow firgure out the insane double bass move in "blinded in chains" by avenged sevenfold cz itsa been bugging me for month i could play the hole song but that one part and guitar and drum traner slows it down but its sounds all robotic and sloppy wen slow-mowed.. so if anyone could tab it out .. i could play heel toe like very very good been at it lil over a year

[Mista Bob]

I dunno, maybe its just me but..

I believe the whole big feet makes heel toe hard thing to be just a myth.
I have size 14 feet and can do it without any problems at all.
Heres an older vid that I uploaded, can't really see much though, sorry.
http://media.putfile.com/Old-H-T-vid

I can do straight 16th's at a decent rate (although not quite as fast as Tim here).
Hardest aspect of heel toe I find, is getting a triplet down, 4 or more hits I dont really have a problem with.
I never really practice the technique though, so.

For pedals, it doesint matter what brand or model it is, mainly just how it is set up.

The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?


In my opinion...
I would have to say a big no to increasing the tension.

[d.c.drummer]

I no one ever taught me heel toe, i picked it up naturally after a few months of when i started playing set but i have always had trouble wit the swivel thing. Ur video cleared it up for me!!!!

[JWM]

This is from a drummer on the Derek Roddy forums--

http://hatredalive.com/nicks/heeltoevid/heeltoe7.wmv

In this case, it's more of a motion. It can be clearly seen that the heel doesn't even have to make contact with the pedal.

Thoughts?

[drummerbum]

yea, i wear i size 12.5 and i just dont wear my shoes when i play and it works out fine. i just move my foot sideways just a little bit and i can play better then all my friends!

[Beat Spector]

ok,

being busy behind tghe drumkid for 9 years. yet only last month started to learn the heel-toe method.
Man it is hard.
In my "calm" bands i always played heel down, in metalband i did the heel up.
(not one teacher told me about heel/toe, i mentioned in my previous posts that belgium is NOT a great drumming nation, i foud out about the heel/toe only here)

So, i'm having kinda extreme difficulties "unlearning" what i've learned and getting used to H/T method
A few weeks most of my everyday practice is this hH/T
Yet i experience very very little (read : almost no) progress in my playing.
even if I speed up just a tiny little, i catch myself just playing heel up automatically.
I'm kinda becomming a bit desperate cuz it doesn't seem to work out for me.
Feels like I can't overcome the "burden" of playing 9 years heel up....

I know the techinique, i've seen all the video's, believe me, i can explain H/T method from beginning to end. that's not the problem.
What i desperetaly like to hear from you guys is: are there any tips and or tricks to "unlearn" my bad habbits (automatically go heel up) faster?

thx a bunch

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

1. Dont think that heelup and heeldown is wrong and helltoe is right. The best woud be to be able to use them all naturally. So dont think of it as you have to unlearn what you have learned - you just have to learn something new.

2. I think that with a LOT of "heeltoe-practise-sessions" you will get it naturally in the higher tempos to, but there's no reason to have those "heeltoe-practise-sessions", unless you need it very very soon. Instead you just practise your other stuff - like new grooves with difficult sticking etc. - and then be sure to use the heeltoe every time there's a doublestroke in the bass. This way your getting used to the feeling and it will become naturall to you and you dont even "really" practise it. I use this kind of practising all the time.

3. About the "heeltoe-practise-sessions" i dont know if you go heel-toe-heel-toe.... but you can also play other exercises. This is one i learned a long time ago from a teacher and it helped my heeldown VERY much:

RH=right hand, LH= left hand, RF= right foot.
Capital letters are accents and lower case are unaccented. Here goes:

lh RH RF RF rh LH RF RF and so on.

The way you practise this exercise is to start slow and go up tempo untill you fail and then you stop and start over.



Hope this helps - it took heel of a long time to write... :)

[Beat Spector]

thanx a lot!


but no, i don't go H/T H/t like derrick says in his video i try to integrate it,
but from the moment i'm gotta pay attention a bit more to my hands...i neglect my heel toe method.
So no, i know heel up and/or heel down is not wrong, but it slows me down incredibly in learning this new techinique.
I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...

but again: Thank you, i'll integrate the exercise...

[tayedrummer]

try play in some thinner wool socks. i have size 11 and it works great for me.

[Paradiddle my snizzle]

I think that if i explain H/T to someone who never played the drums before he/she will have a lot LESS difficulties learning H/T...

Maybe you're right, but hey - cheer up!!

I forgot to say that the exercise sounds pretty cool with the LH on the high tom or snare and the RH on the floor tom.

I'm glad i could help:)

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

after watching derrick pope's video on heel toe, (thouroughly impressed) i tried it for the

first time today... and did it. not well. but i did do it, and with a good amount of practice, i

should be able to confidentally incorporate it into my playing in no time. it was a lot

easier than i expected, just as derrick has said in the video. (here is the link for those that

don't know to which video i'm referring: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope
3.html).

so yah... just thought i'd throw this post in here. with the help of that video, the heel toe

isn't out of reach for anyone. (thanks derrick- keep up the good work)

after i get this down... the moeller technique is next!

[Moonman66]

You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!

[gringo998]

i grew up playing early punkrock, so being able to play doubled really fast was sorta necessary, and when i learned the heel toe, it becam easier.


i cant produce a straight series of 16ths, but doubles are so quick and easy for me. its become second nature. they sound like flams, and theyre at a point, where i can control them, theyre not random, its really nice

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

You should get a Prototpye Giant step pedal the pedals are really big and Jojo Mayer uses it in the 1998 Modern. Drummer festival. Goodluck!!

i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.

[JIM_fear]

The spring tension on my double bass pedal is lower than the average drummer. I am very interested in learning the heel-toe technique. Do you think I should increase the spring tension?



My spring tension is really high, but i've heard of others who use low tension. So, basically it's whatever is more comfortable for you. I'd try a higher tension to see if it would make a difference.

[JIM_fear]

i have an axis longboard, so i'm not having any troubles. and i do have to say, i played on

my friend's kit today (it was my kit- i sold it to him), and i was not able to do heel toe due

to the length of the footboard. it was short enough so that my heel hung off of it, and not

to mention it had a toe stop. angling my foot sideways didn't help either.

The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

The length of the footbard shouldn't be a factor in the heel-toe technique, unless you have freakishly large feet or something. I use a Gibraltar pedal with a normal length footboard with no problems. And i have size 16 feet!

but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.

[JIM_fear]

but it was! haha. i don't have freakishly large feet (size 12), but my heel was hanging off

the end of the pedal making it impossible for the initial heel hit before the toe. if i was to

do the normal technique, my heel would hit the very edge of the footboard, and then my

toe would stomp normally. i couldn't angle my foot sideways either because my heel

would be on the bottom of the footboard in proper position, but my toes would be hanging

off the other side.

Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

Well your problem is that you when you use the heel-toe technique you don't actually use the heel of your foot to make the initial stroke but rather the ball of your foot. But, if your way works on the pedal that you normally use, then i guess i shouldn't be a problem.

hmmm perhaps we are talking about a different heel-toe technique? the technique i

use (as shown here: http://www.drummerworld.com/Clinic/Derrick_Pope3.html) does use

the heel.

[porkchop]

Have you tried playing without shoes or try kung fu slippers they are very flat. Good luck.

[radiofriendlyunitshifter]

haha, no i don't own any kung fu slippers.

but it's a non issue, because that was on a friend's kit (and pedal).

[LimaBeans]

Yes, there are two versions of "heel-toe." This has already been said many many many times. There's the way D. Pope does it and the way Jojo Mayer does it. I'm not completely sure which one Tim Waterson uses, but soon I'll try to post a video of the second version of "heel-toe" in which foot size doesn't matter the least bit (like the video from the Pearl forums - playing heel-toe with nothing but a big toe on the foot board). I would've already had the video up, but my brother forgot to bring his camera home from college.

[Ian Ballard]

I've yet to really integrate that technique with the bass drum. I do however, use a heel-toe thing with the hihat when playing 2&4 jazz, a al Buddy Rich. I also use a pseudo heel-toe to do the "splash" thing with the hats.

I use a technique where I swing my foot side to side, producing a stroke with each swing with amazing speed gains. If I have time, I'll post a vid demonstrating it.

But, I'd like to pump up the arsenal a bit and I'll try the heel-toe someday.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I'd like to go on a slightly different track here.

For the past few months I have been working on doubles with the feet. I have done them heel down, heel up and heel toe. I recorded my self many times.

After listening back, I realize that the sound produced by heel toe is the least MUSICAL of all three methods. The first note has a tendency to be louder and it sounds harsh to my ear. Heel up doubles sound the best.

Heel toe is definitely easier. For example, I can play heel up double strokes at 140-150 BPM yet heel toe doubles at 200 BPM +.

Yet, after listening to the playbacks and thinking about it, I have decided to concentrate on the heel-up doubles. Heel up doubles demand a certain fluidity from the ankle that no other technique develops as well. Heel toe doubles are just too "gimmicky" for me. The motion is a good exercise for the leg but the sound is terrible and you can get away with relatively sloppy technique.

Now, Tim Waterson has developed his heel-toe to such a high level that he can probably control it anyway he likes but even he says that the accent falls heavily on the first note of the heel toe double. That's one reason why he uses a Vruk attachment sometimes. It allows the second stroke to feel and sound like the first. But, that's not the way I want to go, frankly.

We all have to make choices about where to direct our efforts. I just decided that this way is best for me and I wanted to share it with u guys.

[Chip]

The only way I'm currently using heel-toe is for a quick RR when it's too fast for my heel-up doubles. Which is rarely, I barely use them.

I agree with Jeff, heel-toe is the easiest. That being said... I don't like it, it seems inefficient and uncomfortable. Now (with some help from Finn) I can see what Virgil is doing when he does double strokes. I paid attention to my foot stroke (doubles), and I do the same motion, just not as exaggurated. Basically, do a normal, full leg stroke. Do this a few times. Now, snap the ankle down on the way up, then bring down the normal leg stroke (bad exaplanation, but it's the basic movement). It's been giving me more consistent doubles, too. I'm not doing this just because Virgil does (well, a little bit, look how much control he has!), but because it feels more natural to me. Spend a few weeks/months practicing and researching different techniques, and find the most comfortable one for you.

Now I have to get a bigger mirror so I can see exactly what I'm doing without craning my neck to see with the little one I have now...

[JWM]

For me, I practice accents on doubles both ways (or any series of notes for that matter). For accenting the first note, the heel comes down first, for accenting the second it's the toe and then the heel.

Why only be good at one way? I think it's just about where you want to place accents: the heel is the accent (which for me doesn't actually play the pedal because of my foot size and current pedal; rather, it hits the plate and acts as a "stop" at certain tempos) and the toe is the non-accent.

As for Virgil, you'll notice he primarily does reverse doubles (RLLRRLLRR); this is because he never does heel/toe. Personally, I think this is limiting. Both heel/toe and toe/heel, if you will, should be practiced so as to be as versatile as possible.

Maybe some time I can post a youtube of my foot technique...

[Jeff Almeyda]

For me, I practice accents on doubles both ways (or any series of notes for that matter). For accenting the first note, the heel comes down first, for accenting the second it's the toe and then the heel.

Why only be good at one way? I think it's just about where you want to place accents: the heel is the accent (which for me doesn't actually play the pedal because of my foot size and current pedal; rather, it hits the plate and acts as a "stop" at certain tempos) and the toe is the non-accent.

As for Virgil, you'll notice he primarily does reverse doubles (RLLRRLLRR); this is because he never does heel/toe. Personally, I think this is limiting. Both heel/toe and toe/heel, if you will, should be practiced so as to be as versatile as possible.

Maybe some time I can post a youtube of my foot technique...

I'd love to check out your video, bro.

I understand where you're coming from. Frankly, I use all singles when playing with a band. I have so many things I'm working on that I have to prioritize them and doing hours of doubles with the feet is not a top priority. I wish I had 8 hrs a day to practice! 3 isn't enough.

[JWM]

I'd love to check out your video, bro.

I understand where you're coming from. Frankly, I use all singles when playing with a band. I have so many things I'm working on that I have to prioritize them and doing hours of doubles with the feet is not a top priority. I wish I had 8 hrs a day to practice! 3 isn't enough.
Cool... yeah, I'll try to get some vid up pretty soon here. I look forward to your feedback.

And I'm actually just working these things on single pedal right now. Like you, I have to prioritize my time, but I think it's cool to do that, because you end up working on things that are most important to playing music.

Cheers.

[morbius25]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy
I had this friend in high school, was my drummer in my band, and my best friend. When he was born his feet did something weird so when he walked his feet were like on 45's all the time. So he wanted to learn double base, and believe it or not, this dude was the best I had ever heard (small town) anyways, thats the way he played, on 45's. Now if I could get it to work for me, then sweet cuppin cakes I would rock, but..

[Sausabe]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

Size 14, man. And it is hard to do heel-toe style. I just slide my foot across the pedal when I do it. It takes a while to get used to but when you get it down, it feels normal. The hard part of sliding is timing it so you can reuse the 'recoil' for lack of a better (cooler) word.

EDIT: Also learn to play with your feet at an angle, as has been said, but I reiterate because it is help for peeps with big feet.

[komodo]

Okay,so i have the heel toe technique down and find it helps my playin a lot,BUT i would like to see if it could improv my constant double bass playing. Therefore i ask which is the best way to play it with two feet?
R = right foot, L = Left foot, H = heel, T = toe

Is it:

RH,LH,RT,LT or RH,RT,LH,LT?

Thnx for any help

[Chip]

Basically, you're asking about double strokes or single strokes. If you can already do doubles with your feet, well, doubles will most likely work for you with heel-toe. Singles can feel pretty unnatural and strange with heel-toe, though.

Doubles with heel-toe is very commonplace (I myself can't do it, amongst everything else), that's what you'll catch a lot of people doing.

All in all, do what feels best for you.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Chip's got it.

Doing singles with heel-toe sounds like crap (IMO, of course) and it's very difficult to coordinate with the hands during an actual groove. A BIG waste of time for a gimmicky technique.

My advice is to work on heel down for singles. Practicing heel-down will greatly improve your heel-up singles.

Use heel-toe for doubles.

Disclaimer: I myself use heel-up for doubles (ala Virgil) and it sounds and feels much better to me than heel-toe.

Second disclaimer: Doubles on double kick are not very applicable to real-life playing. Practice them at the risk of not working on other, more useful techniques.

[sir_nooby]

I was wondering if the heel-toe technique is any faster than playing heel up, i watched this video and i can play anything he is playing on there and more, playing heel up.

If it is a faster way of play, I will give it a shot and try it out.

Same, I can do tripplets faster than the joker in the video using the heel up technique. Seems to work well for me but this heel-top concept has interested me.....

[komodo]

Thnx for the advice,but i do find heel toe more comfortable for two notes in succession such as on folowd by offbeat bass at a quik pace. THis is probably as i havent been drumming too long though so leg muscles havent developed or something for heel up speed :P Thnx anyways

[Tutin]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

Well I have size 14 feet and have no trouble doing heel toe.

First of all, take the toe stops off the pedals and get your feet as far up as you can. If that doesn't work for you, which it should then try moving your foot so that the heel is off the end of the pedal and then try they motion. Heel toe is incredibly easy.

[stee]

do both, i do, it got me the fastest drummer award in asc with wfd for 1357 bpm!!!

[Jrdnhunting]

if you got that big of a foot i dont no if you could be able to do heel toe man lol. im a size 9 and i have trouble doing it. i have to put my foot off to the side to do it

- John


EVERYBODY LISTEN

TAKE YOUR SHOES OFF

and if you have a chain drive pedal, put ur foot really high up on the footboard and its ok to push on the chain

i have size 13[us] shoes and i can do it great with my right foot and im getting better with my left

and dont do heel-toe without music

always be listening to something or air-drumming something

it helps alot if you wanna stay even

[rendezvous_drummer]

I have size 16 feet, and can do the heel toe method. All thanks to derrick pope's video!!

[h3r3tic]

Would it be ok putting to spring tension to maximum like really tight) ?
I seem to find that when using heel toe on the double pedal I´m getting week strokes...
I gues that maybe it´s because the spring tension is very loose

What do you guys think?

[DrummerMom]

I used medium spring tension on my pedal.

[LimaBeans]

Would it be ok putting to spring tension to maximum like really tight) ?
I seem to find that when using heel toe on the double pedal I´m getting week strokes...
I gues that maybe it´s because the spring tension is very loose

What do you guys think?

I'm not sure if you mean heel/toe (Derrik Pope) or up/down (Jojo Mayer...I still have no idea of the correct name for this technique). For up/down, it works at all tensions, but I can player longer without getting stressed or exausted with low tension. The best thing to do is to try it yourself. Experiment with spring tensions and see what works for you best. If it's weak at all tensions, then the problem is probaly with your technique and not the equipment.

[h3r3tic]

Hey guys thanks for the posts.
This morning I started with a Heel Toe exercise for 20 mins with the springs on medium tension and it worked lovely :)

Thanks guys

[Raymond Bloom]

Jojo Mayer has the spring tension very loose, John Blackwell likes very tight spring tension, it really depends on what have you used? The way you set the spring tension normally is the way you would want 'em for heel-toe!

[h3r3tic]

The 1st time I saw this technique was when I´ve downloaded Derrick Pope´s Heel Toe video and I´m thankful for his work on making these great lessons :) Thanks Man ;)
So when I started practising the Heel Toe I was doing it like -> Heel-Toe - Heel Toe... which is very confortable but then I wanted to speed up a little after somne days of practise and I accidently isntead of Heel-Toe - Heel Toe... I was doing Heel, Heel - Toe, Toe. I started with my right foot on Heel, then on my left foot Hell and then finally by using the Toe on my right and then the Toe of my left ;)
So I´ve gotta say that I find using the Heel Toe method this way more confortable

Am I doing it right?
Are there any advantages or disadvantages?

Thanks dudes :)

[tamadrummer132]

i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?

[jazzsnob]

Practice another method. I just went to this Derek Roddy clinic and he said he's never had luck with heel toe, and just uses heel-down with a bit of help from his legs. Heel-toe isn't the only way to get control.

[rendezvous_drummer]

angle your foot maybe? I have size 16, I win!

[deltadrummer1]

i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?

Oh, you can do it..trust me.

[djp132]

I have a size 14. IT IS POSSIBLE!!!

1. Remove all toe stoppers and other such things.

2. Lighten your footwear. Even if you wear a size 8 shoe, if you have giant nike basketball shoes on, its gonna be tough. I play barefoot but thats just a personal preference. Tim Waterson uses water socks. Maybe try some light converse low-tops.

3. Heel drops on the back of the footboard and rolls forward, the toe catches the board as the beater is on its way back and throws it forward again. Make sure you understand the physics of what is actually happening.

I say again: IT IS POSSIBLE

D

[Jeff Almeyda]

do both, i do, it got me the fastest drummer award in asc with wfd for 1357 bpm!!!

Yeah? Well I'm the best looking drummer in the world!!! Just ask my wife.

Seriously, are you actually ranked by the WFD or are you just another guy who talks alot? If you are ranked, much respect. If not, shut up.

Secondly, a WFD title and a dollar won't even get you on the subway. WFD is cool but let's stop thinking that anyone outside of our little world gives a damn about it. I like it for the technique aspect and the guys in it are cool (for the most part) but WFD titles don't make the hair on the back of your arms stand up the way great music does.

[DWfan20005]

I've been trying heel toe technique for ages and can not ssem to gain speed or quick enough response in my feet. I do 500 heel toes a day to practice.Can some please help me. Help!

[JWM]

I've been trying heel toe technique for ages and can not ssem to gain speed or quick enough response in my feet. I do 500 heel toes a day to practice.Can some please help me. Help!
I think that Tim Waterson's DVD is either out or will be soon. He's used heel/toe in a very famous way, if you don't already know.

Here's his myspace--

myspace.com/timwaterson

[rendezvous_drummer]

Check out this thread (http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10528), brought you you by Drummerworld's very own, Derrick Pope!

[DWfan20005]

Thanx for the suggestions guys but I have watched the Derrick Pope numerous times for reference. Thats why im so desarate for help because i have watched the videos of heel toe on the internet and see no improvement.

[samthebeat]

Just keep at it it will come, and practice it very slowly.

These kinda motions can take months to learn, thats just the way it is. it will come, no amount of watching vidoes will change that, providing you understand the technique that is.

[jiltednut]

I struggled to get my heel-toe even for a while, got the strokes to sound almost even, but couldn't roll evenly at low speeds, so I tried the constant release.

From the horses mouth ( not that Steve looks like a horse persay ):
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/smith.html
and watch the video, I'm not sure when Vic Firth change the videos so best to have a look ASAP.

This will help heel up and heel down, and has improved my heel toe aswell.

[DWfan20005]

Thanx guys for all your help. The constant release has gotten rid of my fear of the heel toe technique and I wont give up practicing it. Your advice is greatly appreciated.

[jiltednut]

In casethat video is taken down, I've uploaded it on youtube:
Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NufXzVX9ouo)

[tomlangedrums]

Thanks for the link - something else to work on!!

[SEVNT7]

Constant release is the way to go.1- It works alot like moeller (same physics principle). 2. It doesn't directly involve the heel but the motions are similar. Actual heel-toe seems to work by strikeing the footpedal with the toe and the heel. In my opinion this doesn't make much sense. If you do this your'e never hitting the footpedal in the sweet spot. Like holding a drumstick in a balanced place for you're fulcrum. Why would you want to move your hand around the stick looseing bounce. When you do constant release it puts the strikeing point of the ball of your foot on the sweet spot of the pedal for both the downstroke & uptroke.(and the tap strokes for triplets and so on). If you want to get your feet (or foot if you don't have a double pedal)in shape to better execute these motions, look up my post on the "double bass thread"( pg. 16 ). It is in my opinion it's the best overall way to develop strong well balanced feet.......later.......T

[DWfan20005]

Just keep at it it will come, and practice it very slowly.

These kinda motions can take months to learn, thats just the way it is. it will come, no amount of watching vidoes will change that, providing you understand the technique that is.

I have been practicing heel toe at a quarter note pattern and it has been working better. I noticed now that it is more about training muscles, not performing stuff from memory(if that makes sense).

[dea]

This technique is so important. Check out the Vruk pedal. It will allow you to take this technique to a whole new level. You will be able to do things you could only dream of.

[DWfan20005]

This technique is so important. Check out the Vruk pedal. It will allow you to take this technique to a whole new level. You will be able to do things you could only dream of.

Can you give a link relating to the Vruk pedal. I have not heard of it before,thanx.

[samthebeat]

dont believe him, vruk is a gimmick, you can play the technique without it the same, it does'nt make it any easier. Everyone i know who has one sells it realising it is a bit of a gimmick, which is probably why it has never caught on.

Im not saying it is useless, it does work and does what it says, it does add loads of power to your pedal, but it does not make heel toe easy, it's just as difficult to master it with one as it is without one....so in conclusion save your 60 bucks and buy some drum sticks, or some new shoes.

[DWfan20005]

dont believe him, vruk is a gimmick, you can play the technique without it the same, it does'nt make it any easier. Everyone i know who has one sells it realising it is a bit of a gimmick, which is probably why it has never caught on.

Im not saying it is useless, it does work and does what it says, it does add loads of power to your pedal, but it does not make heel toe easy, it's just as difficult to master it with one as it is without one....so in conclusion save your 60 bucks and buy some drum sticks, or some new shoes.

Thanx for the advice, are there any pedals that are particulary good for heel toe besides the obvious. "Axis Pedals cause of their long footboard"- average drummer giving autopilot answer.

[dea]

There was a recent response stating the vruk ( www.vrukpedal.com ) was a gimmick. Forgive me, but I must respond because you must understand the truth by someone who owns a vruk and has been playing for going on 30years.

Do not listen to this. That is as far from the truth as one can get. It is not a cheater tool. I don't know where this guy/girl got they're info, but it is completely incorrect. There are skills you can acquire with the vruk that you cannot perform on a standard pedal. Period. Can you implement a pressure stroke ( emphasizing the heel ) on a standard pedal? Nope... You absolutely cannot. Why? Well, it has to do with the fancy spring at the heel. Can you leave your entire foot on the pedal at all times, yet perform a heel-toe rolls? Nope... I bet you can't. Does this tool/technique do absolutely any of the work for you? Nope... You are in complete control and it will sit there like a bump on a log unless you learn to master it and even when you master it, it will still not do anything for you.

They call this the tool for the masters for a very good reason. Not everyone is ready, has the patience, or is open minded enough. However, you don't need to have master skills, but you must have a master's attitude toward something so unconventional, yet so revolutionary to be able to accept it and be patient with it. I can tell you that if you do have the attitude, it will change your playing forever. It changed mine.

[samthebeat]

definition of gimmick -

"In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature."

I did not say it was a cheater pedal, like I said it does not make Heel any Easier, DWfan wants to perfect heel toe, Vruk is not necersarry for that to be achieved.

By the way, i owned a vruk hence why i have something to say about it.

[dea]

Sorry for being so abrasive with my response. Opinions are wonderful and held highly in my book, but it just bothers me horribly when untrue claims are made.

Take it from a drummer that has played for almost 30years and is also restless and never satisfied with the status-quo, but at the same time very pragmatic ( I'm an Engineer, what can I say ). I am always hunting for better ways to do the same thing. Its an obsession, I must admit, but it keeps me sharp.

However, all I can do is talk talk talk. So, instead - I challenge you to challenge yourself. Do you have the patience? Do you have the devotion to play better? Do you have the ability to shed the status-quo? Do you have the ability to shelf ingrained traditions? Do you have just enough self contempt to challenge yourself technically? If so, then be ready to take your bass drum playing to a whole new level.

[Axis27]

Can someone tell me if when you play heel toe does it go RH LH RT LT or RH RT LH LT. I have been trying to do it fast but it always comes out as 4 notes. Thanks in advance! -Joe Peters

[Axis27]

O yea...Can you also tell me how to improve on speed(play fast instead of just doubles) and indurance?

[Raymond Bloom]

if you want to play singles - rh lh rt lt, if you want to play doubles - rh rt lh lt. control, endurance and speed comes with practice, it's really that simple! don't rush, you will eventually gain more controll, power, speed etc

[h3r3tic]

if you want to play singles - rh lh rt lt, if you want to play doubles - rh rt lh lt. control, endurance and speed comes with practic, it's really that simple! don't rush, you will eventually gain more controll, power, speed etc

I agree. Speed will come in time don't worry about it. just keep practising it :)

[jiltednut]

Start really slow making each move a deliberate and exaggerated motion.

[SEVNT7]

Heel-Toe warm up. Ex. is played one foot at a time starting w/ the left foot. Play 16th notes w/ your foot(heel-toe) while rolling 32nd notes( double stroke roll) w/ hands. Play 4 bars( 4/4 time) with each foot, 4 x,s =32 total bars. Then shorten it to 2 bars each foot=16 bars. Then 1 bar each foot= 16 bars. Then 3 beats (or 3/4 time) 16 bars. Then 2 beats each foot 16 bars (4/4). then 3/8 time.or (1 & a half beats). 16 x's. Then 1 beat each foot,16 bars(4/4 time). Then the last is 2 16th notes ( 1/2 a beat) 16 bars. After doing this for a while, try your HL, HR, TL, TR. single stoke roll. I do this about 3-4 days a week as a warm up to further work on my foot & hand technique. Another thing you could work on is Moeller triplets ( down, tap, up ). with your feet. Do this the same way you would do it w/ your hands. One foot at a time, both feet together, and intermixed (R-down, L-tap, R-tap, L-up, R-up, L-down) Or (R-down, L-up, R-tap, L-down, R-up, L-tap ) and so on. .....Later..T

[Bonzo91]

I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.

[h3r3tic]

I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.

And why is that?
Is it wrong to do such thing?

[Tim Waterson]

I don't think getting your foot used to the heel-toe technique a good idea.
Heel toe is just another technqie there are only 3 heel down, heel up, and heeltoe everything else is a motoion and variations of these...
I think for drummers to rely on heel and toe and use it as a cruutch would not be great idea.
But to rely on ANY technque would also not be a good thing....LOL you should be able to play the drums on ANY set in Any configuration.......
Just my 3 cents
Tim

[Tutin]

i watched the videos.. i try it. i have a iron cobra double and.. my feet are size 13
i dont have enough room to do it lol
any solutions?

Yeah I'm a 14 too and I can play heel toe no bother.

[Skacatz]

Do any of ya'll feel that some pedals are better than others for heel-toe. I've used Axis pedals that seem easier than other brands. I've got a Gretsch pedal that I don't have such an easy time with.

What's your feelings?

[SleepyDave]

I agree the Axis Pedals seem easier for me as well. I have a size 12 shoe and can play heel toe on most pedals, however I find some pedals allow more efficient motion. I find the most effieicent way to get the most power, speed and consistency (at least for me) when doing heel to is to play what I call real Heel Toe. What I mean by this is I am actually making the first hit with my heel only (my toes are at least an inch off the foot board). As soon as the first hit is complete the heel bounces off the board upward and the ball/toe part of my foot naturally swings downward making the second hit. In order to do this with eliminator or Iron cobra pedals I have to move my foot beyond the heel plate which means my toes are either eating the chain or I curl them up and use the ball of the foot only (awkward but I have gotten used to it). I find this more powerful/efficient than using the ball/toe of my foot to make both the heel and toe hits although this works also. On the Axis pedals the foot board is longer and has more room making this easier. I imagine the variable drive and the beater forward design also help make the Axis pedals easier to tailor to your liking. The Axis are nice, however with some practice you should be able to do this technique on almost any pedal. I personally no longer use Axis due to their set screw mechanisms which tend to loosen and do not seem as robust as some others, I do however use their Universal drive shaft. Have not found anything better yet. Also working on constructing "Long boards" for my Eliminators. I will post information about this once I am finished if anyone is interested. What I have in mind should be adaptable to most conventional pedals also.

[ajgdrums722]

Hey guys -

I'm doing a lot of double bass stuff currently (playing doubles, paradiddles, inverts, etc. ALA Lang, Donati, etc.). In Lang's videos, he stresses the importance of playing both heel up and heel down for dynamic levels. I agree with this philosophy and have been trying to incorporate both styles into my playing.

My question is...how do you divide the time up? I've read a few posts that have stated that practicing heel down will help you play both heel down AND heel up, while heel up really doesn't have the same impact. The first time I started playing heel down it burnt, and I have to work harder and concentrate more. I don't really feel that at all when I play heel up.

Is heel down that much better for the development of your legs? Should I spend the majority of my time (practicing) heel down, to try to strengthen my legs, aka also helping my heel up playing?

I hope what I'm saying makes sense, and thanks in advance for anyone who can help me out here. Basically I'm just trying to practice as efficient as I can. If practicing heel down helps development more than practicing heel up, then I'll devote the majority of my time to the heel down method (in practice anyway), to further my development.

[spw]

Dividing practice time up is a question that comes up a lot. YOU have to find what works best for you, also you need to analyze your weaknesses, and work on them till they are no longer weaknesses, also you need to maintain your strengths.

Look at all techniques as tools for your toolbox, you have your basic main tools that you use for everyjob, then you have your specialty tools that are needed on rare occasions.

Develop a system to incorperate what you are trying to learn, say you are practicing paradiddles with your feet, you mainly play heel up, but you want to add heel down, you have 30 mins to work on these tools, you can do 15/15, 20/10, 25/5, depending on your needs. You can put together grooves with the foot patterns and constantly switch between the 2 techs and practice changing the dynamic level that each tech offers.

If you can make practice fun, you will practice better, and look forward to it.
While dry practicing has to be done, when you can make your practice in a musical setting, and with your imagination, adding pieces, removing pieces all around the pattern you are practicing, then you also learn to add it dynamically and that will more quickly make you in tune with it's practicle application.

[Wavelength]

Yes, you should practice heel down. It will help isolate and develop ankle movement, which in turn gives you more control when playing heel up.

[ajgdrums722]

Thanks spw, I'm generally pretty good at making good use of my time, I was just wondering whether or not practicing more heel down is more beneficial to my playing. Wavelength sort of cleared that up for me. Thanks a lot to both of you.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Practicing heel down will help your ankle motion and pedal control. Do that first. It develops the lower leg but not much of the hamstrings or hip flexors, however.

Heel up playing will develop those.

There are essentially 3 leg motions. Heel down, heel up from the leg ("running" on the kicks) and heel up from the ankle. You need to eventually be able to employ all of them.

The most practical order to learn this stuff is to start with heel down then heel up/leg and finally heel up/ankle.

[Ryanthedrummer]

hi, ive just started to learn heel toe and was just wondering how people play with the heel toe technique. is it usually heel toe heel toe or heel heel toe toe when playing 16th notes. sorry for the newbie question :P
Ryan

[hawk9290]

http://www.drummerworld.com/Drumclinic/Derrick_Pope3.html

[fazzybOO`]

heel toe, heel toe, heel toe

or

toe heel, toe heel, toe heel

[Ryanthedrummer]

thank you very much for the replies, im working on it :D

[dw D]

I practice the heel first. I find it to be the easiest.

heel toe heel toe heel toe.

[EternalArcadia]

If your feet are too big for the heel toe, then just do doubles like this. It may take longer to learn the doubles like this but i can assure you they are more even and effective.

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/VirgilDonati1.html

its a little ways into that video

[johnhavart]

Question for the experts :

For "unburying the beater" reasons, I would rather consider a toe heel motion (close to constant release a la Steve Smith) instead of a heel toe one but I wonder if potentially one gives more speed than the other ?

Has anybody developped both at the same level ? Can somebody give insight about this ?

Thanks

[fazzybOO`]

oh well looks like im stuck. i can get some fast singles on my pedal by a twitching motion i started using.

Take your shoes off and you'll be fine. I got 12 feet too, and I got the cheapest pedals you can get (Basix); they're also the smallest pedals I've ever seen. I still pull off heel-toe easily. Just take off your shoes and you should be alright.

[SleepyDave]

Question for the experts :

For "unburying the beater" reasons, I would rather consider a toe heel motion (close to constant release a la Steve Smith) instead of a heel toe one but I wonder if potentially one gives more speed than the other ?

Has anybody developped both at the same level ? Can somebody give insight about this ?

Thanks

Perhaps you have this already figured out, however I find it is good to keep in mind that playing closer to the hinge (regardless of what part of the foot you are using) will require less foot movement to make the beater move the same amount. This means that it should be easier to unbury the beater since less foot motion is required. I am not familiar with the constant release a la Steve Smith, but here are some things I have found.

When I play toe heel strokes I naturally incorporate some slide motion. This is so I can make the first hit real close to the pedals hinge. And then make the Heel hit (more using the whole foot) further up the board. I realize the foot does not have to slide, however I find the extra motion of the sliding allows you to kick the beater into the drum (here the pedal bounces off my foot) rather than keeping contact all the way. Once the beater makes the hit there is nothing to keep it buried into the head. I feel I can get a little more power by kicking the pedal like this as well.

I also play what I refer to as real heel toe where I make the first hit with my heel only (ball and toes are off the foot board) then rapidly rotate the toes downward as the heel comes up. I find this can make doubles so fast the 2 notes are almost indistinguishable due to the fact that the heel hit is so close to the hinge and can almost immediately unbury the beater, however I feel the reset time to get ready for the next double hit takes a bit longer since the foot is more stationary and the second hit is made with the ball/toe part of the foot which is toward the top of the foot board, thus taking more motion to remove the beater. With the Toe heel method I find time to reset for the next double seems faster and easier, however I still feel the actual double hit is a little slower. This may be b/c I have been doing toe heel about 1/10 as long as Heel toe. I hope this may give you some things to think about to help out.

[johnhavart]

Many thanks for your input SleepyDave

I gonna study it thoroughly

Maybe a video could definitely clarify this issue !

[BigSexyPanda]

have you guys who are dieing to look for a video ever look on youtube? ive seen tons of em and im sure theres more and one more thing. For you guys with big feet, that shouldnt stop you from doing the heel toe. I have almost size 12 feet and I can do heel toe with half my off of the pedal. You're not ACTUALLY using the heel to literally push down the pedal.

[mvikred]

i wish i could do virgil type of doubles :-s....heel-toe was very easy to pick up ... but using virgils style, i havent come up to speed ... still struggling at very low bpm. lots of work reqd there.

[SleepyDave]

i wish i could do virgil type of doubles :-s....heel-toe was very easy to pick up ... but using virgils style, i havent come up to speed ... still struggling at very low bpm. lots of work reqd there.

Mvikred or someone else, could you please give me some insight to the Virgil Doubles or at least a link. I looked on some of the previous links to Virgil videos, but didn't notice anything obvious there. Could someone please help me out and give a little more explanation or a link? I'm getting the impression he is doing something different from toe-heel or heel-toe but can't seem to find out what it is. Thanks in advance.

[Tim Waterson]

Mvikred or someone else, could you please give me some insight to the Virgil Doubles or at least a link. I looked on some of the previous links to Virgil videos, but didn't notice anything obvious there. Could someone please help me out and give a little more explanation or a link? I'm getting the impression he is doing something different from toe-heel or heel-toe but can't seem to find out what it is. Thanks in advance.

From what I have observed VIRGIL does what is called constant release at slower speeds....
BUT at higher speeds you'll see his feet slide ....and you'll you'll see on some vids his heels almost touch the footboard...
you play the first note heel down and the 2nd heel up except he starts LRR LL RR and so on you can learn these by letting your heel come down but eventually you just raise your heells of the footboard..sometimes STEVE SMITH explains the constant release the best on his DVD
start slow as this takes time and patience to develope.
Good luck
Tim

[Frostilicus]

My drum teacher has been a bit opaque on heel-toe. Primarily because he doesn't do it! Instead he has this rather curious "hop" motion where he starts with the ball of his foot quite low on the board, taps the pedal to get a beat, and catches it with his foot which moves a bit up whilst the spring returns the board for the second beat. It certainly works well enough for him to sound better than me (a humble beginner of 2.25 of your Earth years). It must surely be mechanically less efficient though?

I ignored him because I'd sort of seen a few videos and have been slowly nurturing the Steve Smith stylee technique. It seems very similar to other techniques talked about here, the main difference I can see being some start with heel down and others with heel up. Both have the "rocking bounce". Meh, I'm a bit iffy whatever the position. Practice, practice, practice, so much to practice, so little time...

[SleepyDave]

Thanks for the clarification Tim,
Doesn't seem like you coud get a lot of power that way, but I'm sure you and Virgil have much more experience with this.

A few posts ago I mentioned making a Pearl Longboard. Well, it is done now and here is a link to the pic. It also includes beater mounts from the Iron Cobras so I can adjust the beater to cam angle (anyone should be able to make this mod if desired).
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4949/1000818rh4.jpg

I find with the smooth surface on the footboard I can do a real quick toe heel toe triplet.
I have not heard much about doing single footed triplets on here, but I do hear a lot about practicing both heel-toe as well as toe-heel. From what I can tell the triplet lets me practice both heel toe and toe heel since it combines both motions. Anyone else practicing this way. Just wondering if there may be a drawback I am missing?

[mvikred]

Thanks for the clarification Tim,
Doesn't seem like you coud get a lot of power that way, but I'm sure you and Virgil have much more experience with this.

A few posts ago I mentioned making a Pearl Longboard. Well, it is done now and here is a link to the pic. It also includes beater mounts from the Iron Cobras so I can adjust the beater to cam angle (anyone should be able to make this mod if desired).
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4949/1000818rh4.jpg

I find with the smooth surface on the footboard I can do a real quick toe heel toe triplet.
I have not heard much about doing single footed triplets on here, but I do hear a lot about practicing both heel-toe as well as toe-heel. From what I can tell the triplet lets me practice both heel toe and toe heel since it combines both motions. Anyone else practicing this way. Just wondering if there may be a drawback I am missing?

the doubles virgil does are consistent , even and powerful. its takes a good amount of time to get that type done. check for some of virgil;s clinic vids on youtube. u will find it there. or u can search for derek roddy 's explanation of the same on youtube too.

about single leg triplets, i think jojo mayer does that to perfection, even single foot quadruplets. jojo does it heel-toe-heel i think ... i rarely do it, but wen i do its heel-toe-toe.

[z0mbie]

Heel toe is a good method, check out Derrick Pope he does a good explanation. I think the steve smith constant release is a beast at getting fast straight pedals, triplets and is a good way of building up your ankle mucles but it takes a long while to get right lol I've tried for about 3 months now and cant get the bloody thing past 200bpm :( but heel toe I find is a bit orquard for me, doesnt feel as natural as the constant release.

[svkelleher10]

I have only been playing my new Pearl double bass pedal for about a week and it came naturally to me, but when i tried heel toe, it was really hard to get the hang of. Now i can do it but with a couple inconveniences. First, my toe beats are much louder than my heel beats. How can i make them all sound the same and smooth? Next, i am having trouble keeping the same tempo for more than several seconds. Any suggestions?

[drumfanatic]

4 all heel towers..endurance,i find it easy to play with vruk heal attache..it utelises the effectivnece more efficiant,make's for an smoth heal rebound instead of an hard one,since i play barefoot most of the time ,it more of an comfort..

[Damian Blake]

I for the past 20 years have been a heel up player. I play double kiks and I use the ball of my toe to dance around the footboard for attain different dynamics, speed, and sensitivity. When I am doing intricate beats other than a steady double kick flow, I tend to lean into my kit to give it a bit more of an attack and not fall on my butt at the same time losing my balance. :)

[h3r3tic]

I once used to practise the heel toe technique like this:
Heel toe on one foot (2 strokes) and then on the other foot Heel Toe (2 strokes)

After sometime, I find that playing the heel toe technique as doubles really sounds like crap, so I've been wondering if anyone here ever played the heel toe technique as single strokes?

Like this:

1-Right Foot: Heel stroke;
2-Left Foot: Heel stroke;
3-Right Foot: Toe stroke;
4-Left Foot: Toe stroke.

I haven't tried the heel toe like this yet because I only came up with the idea today.
But I think that maybe in this way of playing the heel toe technique, we'll get not only fast heel toe strokes, but powerfull.

Has anyone tried this?

[Legacyrik]

Of course you can, it's just a technique... I liken it to the mueller for the foot. Obviously it sounds different if you alternate than if you double the double independently but that is not bad just different.

[drumfanatic]

double swiss tripplett ;) bassdrum roll

try this

1 right foot heel down
2 left foot heel down
3 right too down
4 left too down
5 right foot while to presed down pivot the toe over the pivit point foreward to make an extra note
6 same witht left

enyoy!

[sam132]

Good advice, I was breifly shown the toe heel technique (as seen by Tony Jnr?), but I have learnt the heel toe one recently, I found that due to size ten feet and a relativly small pedal plate at one point my toes were between the chain, but I have realised I could move my foot back slightly and play almost to one side of the pedal..

I would like to learn the toe heel now, as watching videos there seems to be much less movement than the wave motion that occurs in the Heel toe.

[drumfanatic]

fore those drummer whith a low budget...and big feet..
wich i mean buy the vruk....

ore..

place a high densety fome block/rubber u find mostley in inleysoles in schous to cussion the impakt...make sure it travels more than 2cm

under the heel section of youre pedal..

this way the heel toe rocking motion is aplifide by the foot ,infact it acts allmost like the vruk..
intead of beating the floor whith youre heel ,this motion is picked up by the coussening effect of the rubber ,and is nott really heel toe,but toe mid foot!

enjoy..

[CASP3Rdrummer]

hello fellow drummes!! 3 months ...hmm maybe little bit more i was think i really dont have any chance doing this technique. yesterday i watched this video (which might be already posted and if so , sorry then) http://youtube.com/watch?v=SSKS9a9NuPc . first of all it remined me a feet move i was doing very often in classroom while i was bored. also this video shows you in a slow motion the normal foot movement of heel toe technique. so anyway i jut wanted to point that nothing is imposible...just wants you to sacrifice some time to get things working !!

cheers

[kamikaze_drummer]

hi, everyone
just to say i have UK size 13 feet and yes i use the heel toe tech'
i simply do not ware shoes when i am playing
and if you find you cant play with no shoes get your self a double peddle
thanks

[brennenlesser]

ok you all no what they say about guys with big feet...they cant play the heel toe thing...so i have size 12 shoes and a dw 7000 pedal anyone who can help me leard this will be greatly admired...please help.
thanks in advance


skippy

Play bare foot or with the Puma Speed Cats! I use the peal eliminator powershifter 1 billion and a half wit the red cams. I removed the toe guards so i can get my foot up there too.

Bring down the heel HARD! that the only way you're ever going to get a clean sound double or triple or a consistent 16 or 8th pattern with one foot like.

you can perform the heel toe without your heel even being on the pedal. It's all in the amount of force thrown from the heel, the ball on your will still toss the beater in for a hard strike then when you stop forward it'll still have a strong impact!

Good luck broseph!

[Tim Waterson]

Play bare foot or with the Puma Speed Cats! I use the peal eliminator powershifter 1 billion and a half wit the red cams. I removed the toe guards so i can get my foot up there too.

Bring down the heel HARD! that the only way you're ever going to get a clean sound double or triple or a consistent 16 or 8th pattern with one foot like.

you can perform the heel toe without your heel even being on the pedal. It's all in the amount of force thrown from the heel, the ball on your will still toss the beater in for a hard strike then when you stop forward it'll still have a strong impact!

Good luck broseph!

PLEASE do not advise drummers to bring down their heel hard this can lead to injury..
There are plenty of videos that show you how to control the notes with your foot..
Tim
www.timwaterson.net

[Halidman]

PLEASE do not advise drummers to bring down their heel hard this can lead to injury..
There are plenty of videos that show you how to control the notes with your foot..
Tim
www.timwaterson.net

kick ass!! its tim waterson!! you rule dude!!! **high five**

[drumfanatic]

are there any other vruk users out there ,beside's well known T.Waterson?

i dont get many hits on google,youtube etc....

howcome?

[chipritter]

I love the heel toe method as much as I can it's great for certain things to get the BD to come thru cleaner or more specific at higher rates of speed. way better results with qwik doubles, my first teacher showed me basic heel toe to roll your foot so to speak etc he said it gives a more "solid" sound than toe down at higher rates of speed and I think he was right...I also remember it was really discouraging at first, I think the key is to spend a little time messing with it every practice, to not give up on it or burn out on it, eventually youll find that spot to roll in, and the goal is NOT to slam your heel so much as rather you try to use the point of force coming in first with your foot like the angle of a plane landing etc then using the traditional toe down move on the second stroke etc.
cool stuff and interesting posts here thanks!

[jnqt]

i like to work with different pedal tensions, it can really help. when i first started heel toe i could only pull off on a cranked pedal but the more i practiced i moved to loser and loser.

[DWfan20005]

I have only been playing my new Pearl double bass pedal for about a week and it came naturally to me, but when i tried heel toe, it was really hard to get the hang of. Now i can do it but with a couple inconveniences. First, my toe beats are much louder than my heel beats. How can i make them all sound the same and smooth? Next, i am having trouble keeping the same tempo for more than several seconds. Any suggestions?

I've been struggling with the heel toe technique for a while now so don't feel bad. Best wishes on your quest to get good at it.

[hwy145]

From what I have observed VIRGIL does what is called constant release at slower speeds....
BUT at higher speeds you'll see his feet slide ....and you'll you'll see on some vids his heels almost touch the footboard...
you play the first note heel down and the 2nd heel up except he starts LRR LL RR and so on you can learn these by letting your heel come down but eventually you just raise your heells of the footboard..sometimes STEVE SMITH explains the constant release the best on his DVD
start slow as this takes time and patience to develope.
Good luck
Tim

Tim,

I'm sure this has been posted, but I didn't want to go through all 11 pages of this thread!! Your youtube clip opened my eyes. I was doing it all wrong (trying to make the first hit by pushing my heel), but that short clip was very enlightening, and I was able to get a steady beat going within an hour or so. Thanks!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXH4lXHmwM&mode=related&search=

[grue]

my target is to play 360 even dynamic strokes with the right per minute while doing complex other stuff with the other four limbs.

four way separation while accenting steady 1/4 notes with the right @90bpm? my hats off to ya

[Giantbeat]

hi this is my 1st post. I play with either a ludwig ghost, or a speed king. I have to say, the ghost is the most XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXg awesome pedal I have ever played. I play heel/toe all the time, I actually learned it on drummerworld from a derrick pope video- if you all know who that is...it's simple heel, toe. shotgun a beer. heel, toe. repeat. the trick is not using it. and then XXXXXXXXXX using it just at the right time. texture. anyway...

[Valecent]

Hey there! SOrry but this has just come to me, and would like to clear it up. (H/T n00b)


The method is Heel then toe on rite foot then heel then toe on left foot, repeat?

[Tim Waterson]

Hey there! SOrry but this has just come to me, and would like to clear it up. (H/T n00b)


The method is Heel then toe on rite foot then heel then toe on left foot, repeat?
Right heel, right toe, followed by left heel, left,toe will be heel toe doubles...
R heel L heel,
right toe, left toe will develope into heel toe singles...
you can also do this toe first then the heel ..
Tim

[JWM]

Right heel, right toe, followed by left heel, left,toe will be heel toe doubles...
R heel L heel,
right toe, left toe will develope into heel toe singles...
you can also do this toe first then the heel ..
Tim
With singles, I like doing R heel - Left toe - R toe - Left heel ... it's groovy.

And then of course there's doing sextuplets which I like doing as--

R heel - L toe - R toe - L heel - R toe - L toe - R heel etc.

[Valecent]

CHeers for clearing that up Tim, and thanks for the extra tips, Tim & JWM

[Slazaar]

not sure how im going to find my anwser through reading 380 posts for it,
so my question is, at what price can i get a relatively good drum pedal (none of the expensive
stuff)
heel-toe is it achieved on a normal pedal or the pedal that has 2kicks but on one set(not sure how to describe it-sorry)?

[King Of Drums]

A few words about the heel-toe technique. It is HIGHLY overrated. When I first started I fell for the heel toe hype. I actually believed I could double my speed with this technique as the ad said. It's bs though the world's fastest drummers can't go twice as fast with heel toe as they can with singles. The thing I dislike most about heel toe is that you don't get much volume at all especially at faster speeds. It is also very difficult to streamline this motion i.e. continuous 16ths with 1 foot. I actually spent a lot of time developing the heel-toe method and I will admit it is probably the most effortless way of doubles on the kick. I think the heel-toe is much better for people who play a double pedal because you could do very fast 16ths with it and you can always use mics to deal with the volume issue. But if you have a single pedal heel-toe is not very effective imo.

Another drawback of the heel toe technique is that it is very hard to do it from a heel up position. It's much easier if you play heel down. Overall It is a way over hyped technique with out enough musical applications. Right now I am learning jojo mayer's foot technique and it is much better in just about every way imo. The only thing is it takes a lot longer to get it down as you need more developed leg muscles.

[abe]

A few words about the heel-toe technique. It is HIGHLY overrated. When I first started I fell for the heel toe hype. I actually believed I could double my speed with this technique as the ad said. It's bs though the world's fastest drummers can't go twice as fast with heel toe as they can with singles. The thing I dislike most about heel toe is that you don't get much volume at all especially at faster speeds. It is also very difficult to streamline this motion i.e. continuous 16ths with 1 foot. I actually spent a lot of time developing the heel-toe method and I will admit it is probably the most effortless way of doubles on the kick. I think the heel-toe is much better for people who play a double pedal because you could do very fast 16ths with it and you can always use mics to deal with the volume issue. But if you have a single pedal heel-toe is not very effective imo.

Another drawback of the heel toe technique is that it is very hard to do it from a heel up position. It's much easier if you play heel down. Overall It is a way over hyped technique with out enough musical applications. Right now I am learning jojo mayer's foot technique and it is much better in just about every way imo. The only thing is it takes a lot longer to get it down as you need more developed leg muscles.

Isn't Jojo using heel-toe himself? Only difference according to him is that instead of heel it's knee so it's more like knee-toe :) He is producing first stroke with full legg not just heel.

[King Of Drums]

Isn't Jojo using heel-toe himself? Only difference according to him is that instead of heel it's knee so it's more like knee-toe :) He is producing first stroke with full legg not just heel.

Yes and that makes a huge difference. It gives you more control for example it is easier to do accents. Plus it much easier do do continuous 16th notes or groups of 3 or 4 etc. than with the heel-toe technique.

[abe]

Yes and that makes a huge difference. It gives you more control for example it is easier to do accents. Plus it much easier do do continuous 16th notes or groups of 3 or 4 etc. than with the heel-toe technique.

OK I understand what you mean. I don't practice heel toe very often and when I do it it's always Jojo's way because I learned his approach from videos and forums first. Just later I learned that there is heel toe without whole legs motion.

Yeah you're right his ''knee-toe'' technique is very practical!

[hitman050]

Can anybody tell what Jojo is doing here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAEP_EHw9NQ

It seems a bit of both constant release and heel toe? Anyone care to explain?

[Saelen]

I love the heel-toe method, and have found many good applications for it, but when I have troubles with it when I'm jamming with others, cos I find that it makes to low sound so you cannot hear it over the guitars and I don't have my drumkit at home micked up. Therefore, it's useless for me in most situations(I don't play in a band atm)
Though I use it quite alot when grooving just alone and cover songs.
I guess many of you have the same problem, or have you all micked up your drumkits? someone got any advice?
thanks!

[Paradiddlemadness]

For me, when I play my heel stroke, although the heel comes down, it's actually the ball of my foot playing the pedal board, not my heel. The second stroke in turn, is also played by the ball of my foot.

I know a lot of drummers swear by Axis longboards for playing this technique, as they play the stroke with their heel, and I read in an earlier post that some people had been having trouble playing heel toe if they had big feet - playing "heel toe" the way I do, the heel doesn't even need to be on the footboard, so the type of pedal or foot size doesn't matter. As long as the pedal is set up correctly (I use an Iron Cobra Flexi-Glide,medium spring tension now with the beater a little further back than 45deg), then it shouldn't be too hard to get it happening on both feet - I also find sitting with my legs at 90deg helps a lot!
I do stress though that pedal setup is very important!

Having said that though, I don't feel it's the right pedal technique for accenting double kicks - that's a whole other beast! :-)

[aydee]

For me, when I play my heel stroke, although the heel comes down, it's actually the ball of my foot playing the pedal board, not my heel. The second stroke in turn, is also played by the ball of my foot.

I know a lot of drummers swear by Axis longboards for playing this technique, as they play the stroke with their heel, and I read in an earlier post that some people had been having trouble playing heel toe if they had big feet - playing "heel toe" the way I do, the heel doesn't even need to be on the footboard, so the type of pedal or foot size doesn't matter. As long as the pedal is set up correctly (I use an Iron Cobra Flexi-Glide,medium spring tension now with the beater a little further back than 45deg), then it shouldn't be too hard to get it happening on both feet - I also find sitting with my legs at 90deg helps a lot!
I do stress though that pedal setup is very important!

Having said that though, I don't feel it's the right pedal technique for accenting double kicks - that's a whole other beast! :-)
Could you explain the pedal set-up in greater detail?

[Paradiddlemadness]

I'll give it a go ... Initially I had my beaters closer to the head and my spring tension set extremely tight. I heard this was how a lot of the fast double kick players were doing it, so I never really experimented with anything different. I found with my pedals set up like this that I just couldn't do heel-toe on my pedals, but I found I could on some other peoples pedals. I came to the conclusion that pedal setup obviously had some influence on this technique. So as for pedal setup, I think it is best to have your beater move through a full range of motion (the reason why I set it further back now), rather than a shorter motion as it gives the second note played more volume. Basically after you play the "heel" stroke (with front of foot), the beater naturally comes back to it's resting position, and obviously the further back it comes the more volume the next stroke will have. Don't of course take it too far back or you may find your footboard will hit the baseplate before your beater hits the drumhead. The reason I have my spring tension looser is because I don't believe in doing more work (in drumming) than I have to. Drumming in my mind isn't supposed to be a workout at the gym - it's all about the music. I'm also lazy! haha.

As a side note, I use Tama's solid wooden beaters (they kick ass!), and 2 beater balancers on each beater, which are set as close to the beater head as possible. I probably didn't need 2, but had some spares doing nothing at home :-)

I hope this made sense ?!

[aydee]

I'll give it a go ... Initially I had my beaters closer to the head and my spring tension set extremely tight. I heard this was how a lot of the fast double kick players were doing it, so I never really experimented with anything different. I found with my pedals set up like this that I just couldn't do heel-toe on my pedals, but I found I could on some other peoples pedals. I came to the conclusion that pedal setup obviously had some influence on this technique. So as for pedal setup, I think it is best to have your beater move through a full range of motion (the reason why I set it further back now), rather than a shorter motion as it gives the second note played more volume. Basically after you play the "heel" stroke (with front of foot), the beater naturally comes back to it's resting position, and obviously the further back it comes the more volume the next stroke will have. Don't of course take it too far back or you may find your footboard will hit the baseplate before your beater hits the drumhead. The reason I have my spring tension looser is because I don't believe in doing more work (in drumming) than I have to. Drumming in my mind isn't supposed to be a workout at the gym - it's all about the music. I'm also lazy! haha.

As a side note, I use Tama's solid wooden beaters (they kick ass!), and 2 beater balancers on each beater, which are set as close to the beater head as possible. I probably didn't need 2, but had some spares doing nothing at home :-)

I hope this made sense ?!

Yes, it does , thanks. Basically you are saying that the pedals got to feel bouncier to allow the heel toe to flow naturally.. and that a not so tight tension on the springs allows you that feel..? How about getting the beater caught in your trouser leg as the beater is snapping back ...: )

[Paradiddlemadness]

It's funny you say that! It hasn't happened yet, but it has happened before (on numerous occasions - mainly practice) with my old pedal setup, so it's just a matter of time! :-)

One thing I can recommend is to tuck your trouser leg into your socks, and your shoelaces into your shoes. This will stop that happening, and because it looks a little daggy, make sure you untuck everything once you finish playing! haha

[brennenlesser]

here is a warm up video with heel toe I made... any feed back for it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzOIZwhgJ58

[TedTheDrumGuy]

I've found what works best for me and my students is not to use the heel of the foot at all. Treat this technique like the Moeller technique for the hands. For the downstroke, keep toes close to the top of the pedal (nearest to chain) and your heel off the pedal. Don't "raise" the heel though, play the foot flat to the floor, so there is some space between your heel and the base of the pedal. As you allow the beater to rebound off the bass drum, lift your whole leg without bending, raising, or twisting your ankle. For the second stroke, let he beater bounce all the way back, and slide your foot up the pedal a small amount, as you lower your leg again.

I've tried the "heel toe" technique, and found this to work easier, with a smoother feel and more consistent sound. Keeping your foot 90 degrees from your leg and not twisting or raising creates less tension on the muscles, allowing one to play longer! Sometimes I give a litle extra push with my toes, depending on tempo and dynamics.

Like the Moeller with it's down/up stroke feel, where the up stroke is just allowing the stick to impact the head hen the wrist is raised. It works for me! Hope it works for you too :)

[brennenlesser]

I've found what works best for me and my students is not to use the heel of the foot at all. Treat this technique like the Moeller technique for the hands. For the downstroke, keep toes close to the top of the pedal (nearest to chain) and your heel off the pedal. Don't "raise" the heel though, play the foot flat to the floor, so there is some space between your heel and the base of the pedal. As you allow the beater to rebound off the bass drum, lift your whole leg without bending, raising, or twisting your ankle. For the second stroke, let he beater bounce all the way back, and slide your foot up the pedal a small amount, as you lower your leg again.

I've tried the "heel toe" technique, and found this to work easier, with a smoother feel and more consistent sound. Keeping your foot 90 degrees from your leg and not twisting or raising creates less tension on the muscles, allowing one to play longer! Sometimes I give a litle extra push with my toes, depending on tempo and dynamics.

Like the Moeller with it's down/up stroke feel, where the up stroke is just allowing the stick to impact the head hen the wrist is raised. It works for me! Hope it works for you too :)


that's a cool technique but this is a heel toe thread. I like the technqiue your describing. john blackwell uses it

[brennenlesser]

technique*** I should really learn how to spell it before teaching it hahaa

[chipritter]

any one with any size feet , on any bass drum can use the heel toe method.
ask your drum instructor about it,
read thru this thread for opinions,

or try, the ACTION of heel coming in to pedal but the
FACT of the middle part of your foot doing the first stroke,
then simply use toe down as secondary stroke.

its NO different than hitting a drum stick to a drum with downstroke and then using fingers to pull secondary stroke. the mechanics are the same.

one shoe on the floor can practice the move, heel toe heel toe, then
mimic same excat motion on BD pedal and keep messing with it until you get a clean loud solid stroke out of the first move.
if you keep looking you WILL find it.

theres many opinions, Tim has a a lighter, faster movement than I do, but mine is much louder. I dont use triggers or drumometers, I play an acoustic bass drum.
I jumped up on the WFD stage one year at namm and smoked some doubles,
then Tim blew my doors off ) speed wise, but not volume wise! HA! Then told everyone that my way was the wrong way. (wrong for hitting speed on a drumometer perhaps thats true)
I'm still kickin ass with my way of heel toe and I have video to prove it!
I'm still getting quads with one foot with this technique, I do them in time and anytime I want to.
the same technique my first drum teacher showed me.
so Ill always be a fan.
I have video I will be happy to email anyone who wants to see of this but be warned the video is dressed up with TRICK logos and is footage of the bigfoot bedals.
regardless.. you CAN use heel toe no matter what size foot.
lower your heel and swing your leg in like the space shuttle landing, keep trying to find the sweet spot of your middle foot, once you get the first note, the second is cake.

god bless all of you and happy holidays!
my email is chip @ chipritter.com (no spaces)
www.chipritter.com

[hitman050]

Can anyone explain Jojo's technique?

[Les Ismore]

The average/standard foot board is 10" Long boards are 12"... not a big stretch. Joe Stronsick (heel toe guru) will tell you flat out that anything over 9.5 shoe size on a standard board and you're out of the game, this of course is bare foot playing.

I've found with a 'long board' you're good up to 11.5 which is actually pushing it, 11 to be in the full potential mode, again bare foot.

There's no reason you couldn't fashion your own long board any length you want it. Ultimately you want the heel hitting on, or in front of the rear hinge (pivot point), best in front of it.

I don't see the point in trying to play heel-toe with shoes on, there's slop in the shoe fit which will complicate the move. I'm sure some guys are doing it (with small feet) but bare foot is the most controllable option.

[Les Ismore]

Can anyone explain Jojo's technique?

Jojo starts his stroke with the ball of his foot, then drops his leg. This is not as efficient as heel-toe proper and not really even heel-toe at all, its an advanced toe fired heel-up continuous double stroke. This stroke is actually hard to get good at and its full potential is nowhere near that of heel-toe proper, its very energy consuming and can't be sustained at length like heel-toe proper.

Once you get this stroke started, it basically is the heel-toe motion, but starting and stopping are its shortcoming's/faults. The start is hampered by having to stop the forward motion of the first stroke and drop the heel. With HT proper, its all one fluid rocking motion: downward-forward just like you're walking. Jojo's is like your walking, only landing on the ball of your foot first, then coming down with your heel... not fluid.

+'s? He does it in shoes, although he's working his ass off to make it happen smoothly and its never 'ace' fluid most of the time.

[brennenlesser]

Jojo starts his stroke with the ball of his foot, then drops his leg. This is not as efficient as heel-toe proper and not really even heel-toe at all, its an advanced toe fired heel-up continuous double stroke. This stroke is actually hard to get good at and its full potential is nowhere near that of heel-toe proper, its very energy consuming and can't be sustained at length like heel-toe proper.

Once you get this stroke started, it basically is the heel-toe motion, but starting and stopping are its shortcoming's/faults. The start is hampered by having to stop the forward motion of the first stroke and drop the heel. With HT proper, its all one fluid rocking motion: downward-forward just like you're walking. Jojo's is like your walking, only landing on the ball of your foot first, then coming down with your heel... not fluid.

+'s? He does it in shoes, although he's working his ass off to make it happen smoothly and its never 'ace' fluid most of the time.

Jojo doesn't work his ass off to do anything. His whole approach to technique is around physics, and relaxing. He does everything the simplest way he knows.

I'd like to see a video of you playing. I mean you just tore one of the living encyclopedias of technique apart.

sounds to me like you haven't put much practice into the technique. It's actually much easier and a lot more relaxing than heel toe. I Know I have a heel toe video up on the technique section somewhere, but, i really sort of discourage a lot of players from using it because it becomes a crutch, and picking up other techniques can be hard. I know from doing heel toe for 5 years then spending that last few month learning other techniques for other muscle groups.

I think you should try again...

[RudimentalDrummer]

Jojo starts his stroke with the ball of his foot, then drops his leg. This is not as efficient as heel-toe proper and not really even heel-toe at all,

This stroke is actually hard to get good at and its full potential is nowhere near that of heel-toe proper, its very energy consuming and can't be sustained at length like heel-toe proper.

starting and stopping are its shortcoming's/faults. The start is hampered by having to stop the forward motion of the first stroke and drop the heel. With HT proper, its all one fluid rocking motion: downward-forward just like you're walking. Jojo's is like your walking, only landing on the ball of your foot first, then coming down with your heel... not fluid.+'s?

He does it in shoes, although he's working his ass off to make it happen smoothly and its never 'ace' fluid most of the time.

This thread is about Heel-Toe – YES, but Irregardless of what Technique a Drummer choose to use (including Jojo here) – as long as he can expedite it well & very efficiently – It’s effective for him….doesn’t really need to be HeEl-Toe. And how do you define, if Jojo’s Techniques IS ? Fluid or not fluid?, proper or not proper heel-toe techniques?

Nothing wrong with doing it in Shoes neither, Jojo as in all Professional Drummers will try to do it using shoes it's only right (and we should all learn to expedite whatever foot patterns/techniques using shoes) - not without SHOES !…..I mean common how can we play bare-footed on a stage or in certain venue if given a gig – have a little class !


Like any Drummer here - Jojo is a Drummer in his own right and he is a great drummer - most of all - very very humble and nice as a person.

[Oly!]

How would you use the heel toe method with the heel up method?> cause its quite a mission changing if you playing rock and just want to do a few quick doubles...

[chipritter]

"Be like water making its way through cracks. Do not be too assertive, but adjust to the object, and you shall find a way round or through it. If nothing within you stays rigid, outward things will disclose themselves. Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend."
-Bruce Lee
"Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it." - Bruce lee
:)
I don’t think it should be too much of a mission to switch between the two
same pedal, same leg, just practice slight movements to use heel toe


Try Starting out by holding the beater to head calf muscle tense toe down... then
the muscles on top of foot, the front of shin should strike first blood.
Try to find that sweet spot where the foot connects middle of foot on the footboard, all with SLIGHT forward movement of foot in initial stroke to make that first one loud clear and on purpose, the energy and momentum of your upper leg (by the torso down to the knee)

After you get the FIRST note, it should be relatively EASY to THEN use the TOP OF YOUR BIGGEST LEG MUSCLE, your lap, your thigh, your stepping up a set of stairs muscle, to power the toe-down secondary stroke, with equal volume and clarity.
Hope that helps
and
RudimentalDrummer I agree 100%!

Chip

[druid]

"to overuse one's technique especially in the heel-toe variety....one must remember to keep good taste and that when playing in a weekend covers band we must not over-use and play 3 and a half minutes of blazing heel toe 32 note note beats on songs such as "Take it Easy" by the Eagles...or even "Little Pink Houses" by John Cougar Melloncamp...to do so would poision the minds of the drinking patrons and possible cause disruption of the musical set....it simply....won't fit the song"

-druid

[chipritter]

"we must not over-use and play 3 and a half minutes of blazing heel toe 32 note note beats on songs such as "Take it Easy" by the Eagles...or even "Little Pink Houses" by John Cougar Melloncamp..."

THAT"S funny! (raises hand) guilty as charged.

...but I could use it on 'life in the fast lane" -Eagles or "Walk This Way" - Aerosmtith
if my toe-down wasn't up to those yet!
:)))

[capers]

i know this thread is old, but this is important. It doesn't matter how big your feet are. You can hang your heel off the back of the pedal right on the floor if you want and it will still work. Watch the Waterson video on heel toe method on youtube. Right at the end he backs his heel onto the butt plate. I've seen another video with a guy in cut off socks that puts his heel on the floor on youtube as well.

Here's the thing: It's really important to adjust your pedal correctly. Once again, a video on youtube shows how to adjust a tama iron cobra for heel toe method and you can do that to any good pedal. Also, for me it was initially important to mess with my seat height and distance from the pedal. With the right combo, my foot practically auto rebounds and it doesn't matter where the foot is placed. It feels very similar to what a good rudimental double feels like or, even better, it feels just like the heel toe method used for playing congas. You foot should feel like you foot floats above the pedal. There's a sweetspot that makes this easy, but it isn't necessarily easy to find.

Watch the Waterson video. The movement is heel to toe, but the strike flows better from the middle of the foot to toe. This is really noticeable at the end of the video. I got this in a couple hours of trying and my foot is too big to actually strike the plate with my heel directly.

[capers]

Oly! How would you use the heel toe method with the heel up method?> cause its quite a mission changing if you playing rock and just want to do a few quick doubles...

I realized this as well. I dropped my foot a lot lower but still kept the heel off the pedal. Then I sort of half did the heel toe technique by whipping the heel part and not doing the toe part. It's hard to explain. I guess I have my foot in the ready position for heel toe, which means my heel is still off the pedal, and then i found a good way to get power from that position.

It's taking me a while to remember to play like this, but it feels like I'll fully break my old habit of a high heel in a couple of weeks.

[karkrazy7]

hi whats the best double pedal for heel toe ??

[mead50]

i have a size 13 and i do it just fine

u just gotta practice, it wasn't easy at first, trust me

[Russ Morse]

Chip,
Liked the Bruce Lee quotes! I guess his one inch punch was his Moeller technique!

[Les Ismore]

This thread is about Heel-Toe – YES, but Irregardless of what Technique a Drummer choose to use (including Jojo here) – as long as he can expedite it well & very efficiently – It’s effective for him….doesn’t really need to be HeEl-Toe. And how do you define, if Jojo’s Techniques IS ? Fluid or not fluid?, proper or not proper heel-toe techniques?

It is easy to get caught up in the confusion, but the 'Heel-Toe' technique is just as its spelled out. The heel-makes the first strike, not the toe. Its not called toe-heel.

Its not easy to get this technique b/c you're so used to making the first hit with the front of the foot. With heel-toe proper you lead with your heel, not your toe.

If you hang your feet off the back of the foot board, you're not doing heel-toe proper, you're dropping your heel to accentuate a second toe strike, a different stroke definition all together, don't know why one would call that heel-toe... but then I don't think anyone has these terms copyrighted.


How would you use the heel toe method with the heel up method?> cause its quite a mission changing if you playing rock and just want to do a few quick doubles...

Once you do get some proficiency its pretty easy actually, you just drop you heel on the board b/c with heel-toe proper, the first stroke (which is the heel) starts with the heel up/raised, toe planted.


... - most of all - very very humble and nice as a person.

Abe Lincoln said it best "People don't remember what you give them, they don't remember what you do for them, they remember how you make them feel."

[danarchy11]

I played shortboard pedals since I started. Up to about a year ago when I got the Pearl Demon Drive and converted it to longboard. I wear an 11.5 shoe so I know how difficult heal toe is. I don't do it - because I can't.

When I started double kick, I wasn't fluent with long bursts of double kick, so I devised a way to play short bursts. I was still pretty new to drumming and didn't know the heal toe technique existed. Instead, I used the ball of my foot and toes.

The easiest way to explain it is:
on the top of the pedal (closest to the chain or drivelink) push down with your toes. This will lift the rest of your foot off of the pedal. Immediately after slam the ball of your foot down on the pedal. with a little practice, you'll be playing rolls on a single pedal as fast as anyone on a double.

As with all techniques, you will develop your own style for this. I'm not sure if this will work for you but it's been working for me and a lot of great drummers, like Virgil Donati, Aaron Spears and Gerald Heyward, use this technique.

[Les Ismore]

When I started double kick, I wasn't fluent with long bursts of double kick, so I devised a way to play short bursts. I was still pretty new to drumming and didn't know the heal toe technique existed. Instead, I used the ball of my foot and toes.

The easiest way to explain it is:
on the top of the pedal (closest to the chain or drivelink) push down with your toes. This will lift the rest of your foot off of the pedal. Immediately after slam the ball of your foot down on the pedal. with a little practice, you'll be playing rolls on a single pedal as fast as anyone on a double.




Some would call this 'Heel-toe' but its really toe-heel and---- if your toe stays planted affecting the second stroke its something entirely different- a heel accentuated double stroke, if you're even getting actual doubles.

Again heel-toe is the heel of the foot connecting with the pedal board with toes/ball of foot relaxed/released, then rocking from the planted heel to ball of foot strike, like a walking step.

Heel-toe is the heel (leading) making the first 'strike' and its never just a heel drop, its 'actual heel contact' on the pedal board.

Its a total alien stroke b/c your used to leading with the ball/front of your foot, it takes much practice to be comfortable with the heel striking first, there's NOTHING natural about it regarding how we approach the bass drum pedal, it messes with your head.

[Stickson]

I often wonder what John would do with a double...especially in "Good Times Bad Times".

He'd probably drink it... and then order another one.

[jamest]

I often have trouble when playing heel to toe. My footboard on my bass pedal isn't the best and my foot always ends up sliding up into the chain. A new pedal me thinks!
__________________

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!"

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[giffo]

I had the same issue as the originator of this thread.........size 12 (UK) and not very long foot-board.
I have Tama Iron Cobra, with the Cobra Coil and found an easy solution, well for me anyway.....took my shoes off and play in my socks.

Sorry if someone else has suggested this but the thread is a bit long now to trawl through it all!

[Mr.L]

Compare a 20$ single-pedal to a 200$ single-pedal.
What would the differences be? Do they go down easier or something?
I mean they're obviously gonna last you longer, but what are the differences in the feel of them?

[sparky88]

Go to free drum lessons .com sign up for the secret lesson. Jared Falk shows how to do it in detail. I do not prefer that method. I practice the technique but I find playing heel up better for me. Especially Triplets.
Sparky

This link may got it ti?

- http://www.BassDrumSecrets.com/boot-camp/01-heel-toe-technique.php
- http://www.BassDrumSecrets.com/boot-camp/02-slide-technique.php

[OnThisDaysDrummer]

I think I have a mental block or something of that sort, because I can not make the heel toe technique work. I've watched several videos, and I can make it work with one foot for a few good strokes, but it just gets sloppy and sounds awful. I actually have better luck with the slide technique. I was able to get the basics down in about an hour of work, and now I use it almost subconciously.

[stuglue]

Quick question here for the experienced players re heel toe technique.
I watched quite a few videos of players explain the technique on youtube and i get the deal.
My next question relates to using the heel toe technique with two kick pedals. I need to know the order in which to do the 16th notes.
Do I do heel toe on the right foot first and then repeat the same pattern on the left foot OR do i heel on the right then heel on the left and then toe on right and then toe on left?
Thanks for your assistance.

[goatatl]

I would definitely think heel toe heel toe between left and right, just because it seems like it would lose it's fluidity the other way. That said, my left foot ain't even close... YET!!

[stuglue]

Hi guys, quick update from myself.
I'm actually a guitar player that wanted to learn the drums (mainly as I wanted to get better timing for my guitar playing and to learn a new instrument).
I am coming at this as a brand new drummer without any technique that has been developed over many years of practice.
One of the first things i did before getting my kit was to do a lot of research on the net about drumming techniques (i don't have a teacher so didn't want to develop bad habits)
After using Youtube (great resource) I decided that heel toe would be a great foot technique to start with.
Ok, i've had my kit nearly three weeks now and thanks to watching the Jared Falk bass lessons it has really cleared up what I was initially doing wrong with heel toe. Firstly my toes were right up at the chain and I was bringing my entire foot off the board each time I tried to do a stroke.
Now I have my foot no more than half way up the board (my heel touches the floor) and my foot is always in contact with the footboard. My leg and ankle muscles are relaxed and after a lot of practice im finally getting a consistent stream of 16th notes (when i first started i would hear an audible pause between feet), the volume is getting even now too.
I know that a few months down the line i'll have developed my muscles more and will have better control over this technique. I have size 11 feet and its not a problem, I just make sure my feet aren't at an angle and that they are only half way up the board and that I make very efficient movement

[burn-4]

Shouldn't this technique be called toe heel?

Check out this Pete Riley video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4U2aajsvI

That's basically how i've been doing it and it seems way more natural to start with the toe for me

[Tim Waterson]

Shouldn't this technique be called toe heel?

Check out this Pete Riley video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB4U2aajsvI

That's basically how i've been doing it and it seems way more natural to start with the toe for me
This is SLIDE like most drummers we exagurate the movement to demo.
but when Pete plays he is definately sliding his foot
Tim

[burn-4]

This is SLIDE like most drummers we exagurate the movement to demo.
but when Pete plays he is definately sliding his foot
Tim

Cool
Guess i'm more of a slider than a heel toer then :)

[mplkstr]

Pearl Demon Drive Setup Tutorial just in....

Everything from out of the box to final configuration and exercises.

http://youtu.be/ypJnKoBtNcc

Good Luck