Open-Handed Players: When did you start?

[boomstick]

For a few years now, I have devoted some of my practice time to open-handed playing. I've not been doing this because I desire to play open-handed, but primarily as a way to develop my left hand (which has worked quite well). Also, I wanted to be able to switch over if I want to play a pattern where open-handed would be advantageous, such as playing the hats and toms together. I've gotten a lot better at it, but I'm still nowhere as good at playing this way as I am with cross-sticking.

So, I was wondering how many of you open-handed players started out this way from the beginning, and how many are "converts." I imagine it would be kind of hard to convert after playing cross-stick for a long time, but I'm sure it has been done. I wanted to make a poll, but I don't see an option to do so (??). So, I will just await responses. Thanks.

[jameswadewilson]

I started a couple of years ago and play this way most of the time. Still I can put more feeling and expressiveness in my playing if I ride with my dominant hand on the hats. But I do most constant, straight - ahead rock riding with my weaker hand on the hats.



For a few years now, I have devoted some of my practice time to open-handed playing. I've not been doing this because I desire to play open-handed, but primarily as a way to develop my left hand (which has worked quite well). Also, I wanted to be able to switch over if I want to play a pattern where open-handed would be advantageous, such as playing the hats and toms together. I've gotten a lot better at it, but I'm still nowhere as good at playing this way as I am with cross-sticking.

So, I was wondering how many of you open-handed players started out this way from the beginning, and how many are "converts." I imagine it would be kind of hard to convert after playing cross-stick for a long time, but I'm sure it has been done. I wanted to make a poll, but I don't see an option to do so (??). So, I will just await responses. Thanks.

[riddle]

Now that you mention it, about a week ago. I did it for the left hand too, it helps strengthen it. I'm okay with open handed normal beats, ghosting with the right hand feels weird though, its like you've gotta keep telling it "you can take a rest now," but it just wants to go back to the solid 8 beat.

[jameswadewilson]

That's where I'm having problems - little flourishes on the hats and ghost notes on the snare. What pretty much comes natural playing cross handed requires some practice to play open handed. And more practice to get it really right.

It keeps getting better though and has really opened up the ability to do more things like play some percussion parts while playing the normal parts with the weaker hand.




Now that you mention it, about a week ago. I did it for the left hand too, it helps strengthen it. I'm okay with open handed normal beats, ghosting with the right hand feels weird though, its like you've gotta keep telling it "you can take a rest now," but it just wants to go back to the solid 8 beat.

[bobdadruma]

I began playing crossed with trad grip around 1971.
A few years ago I started practicing matched grip openhanded playing just for the heck of it.
I find myself playing open now on some songs, mainly on simpler songs.
It kinda gives me a break and allows me to rest a bit during a performance. It has also made me a better player.
I will never completely become an open player. Old Dog syndrome!

[bonhamdrummer123]

I am naturally right handed but I have played open handed from the first time I sat at a drum set. For some reason my left hand is still very weak and the fingers and wrist and such are still somewhat uncoordinated. I find it much easier to play around with the snare with my right hand because I have so much control over because it is my dominant hand. I also don't know why my left hand hasn't gotten much better...

[wy yung]

I play both. I find it helps when problems arise. For example I use it now due to a health issue with my right hand.

[jivadayadasa]

So, I was wondering how many of you open-handed players started out this way from the beginning, and how many are "converts." I imagine it would be kind of hard to convert after playing cross-stick for a long time, but I'm sure it has been done.

Dom Famularo is a great example to look to as someone who has successfully made the conversion (as of 2002).

It's funny, I sort of used to think of this approach as playing left handed when it just means playing what on the left with the left, and what's on the right with the right. Very logical; I am having a blast with it even though it's kicking my ass...

[Pass.of.E.r.a.]

Since I picked up my pearl remote cable hi hat stand, I've been playing with my main hi hat on my right (so my hands don't cross). So if that counts as open hand I've been doing it for several months now, and i definitely prefer it over crossing my hands. It feels very natural to me.

Not knowing if this style has a name, I call it reverse open hand. (the link in my signature has footage of me playing like that)

In addition to that, i have my secondary hats set up nice and low on my left for traditional open hand playing which I incorporate into my playing as often as I can :)

-Jonathan

[K.Howden]

The story goes something like this;

My friend taught me Drums and the first ever lesson I sat down and just started playing open, he asked me if I wanted him to swap the kit around (as I'm a naturally left-handed person anyway) and I just told him not to bother and I'd play it as it was. Because the whole Foot to Hand co-ordination would of been new to me anyway it didn't really come into my mind that I was using my right Foot on the Bass and left Foot on the Hats, either way I would of had to learn from scratch with neither side being advantageous over the other. As for the Toms I didn't really care where they were placed, I had to learn how to play a Beat first! who needs Toms at this stage right?

For the first two Years or so of my playing I never used a Ride Cymbal, didn't even know what one was!, so when I got introduced to it I thought the natural thing to do would be to place it on my left where my leading Hand was.

This how I'm setting up these Days:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4123954144_3f35d7f66b_o.jpg

And that's is all there is to it, a combination of sheer oblviousness and making do.

Hope you're all well,

Kev

[grannydrums]

I never found it easy to cross my arms and so I also had a remote hat on my right for quite some time. but then I found sixteenths on the hats a bit tricky.

So I had yet another layout change and put the hats in the middle behind the snare, just overlapping a little, and the ride behind them. I play open handed, but leading with my right and the toms are all easy to get to from this central point.

I keep meaning to lead with my left sometimes to get that hand going but never seem to get round to it--there is just so much to practice

[riddle]

The whole thing about swapping was to change your left and right mindset, for me it was right dominant so right moves more so you've got to like tell yourself the left's dominant now and try to go against your mind. Another difficult thing is how it's LRLRLRLRLR now, to get back to the basics. Still i think its easier if you can change your whole perception, easy to say; hard to apply. Try brushing your tooth with your less dominant hand (left), my gums bled

*why can't my profile picture be shown?*

[joeysnare]

i actually started playing drums open handed just seemed to make sense to me, then i got into body building and lets just say a big chest and short arms makes it really hard to play crossed lol. but since ive slimmed down its really opened up my playing by play closed too. pun intended.

[K.Howden]

Another difficult thing is how it's LRLRLRLRLR now, to get back to the basics.

That's interesting, even though I lead grooves on the Hats and Ride etc with the left Hand, I have certain fills and accents I can only do with particular and opposing Hands.

For example I lead anything in singles that has accents on the "1 e or 2 e, 3 e, 4 e" and so on with the left, but if the accent is on the "1, 1 &, 2, 2 &, 3, 3 &, 4, 4 &" I'll lead with my right. In affect what is happening is that I'm making sure that accents are always being played with the right Hand (this doesn't apply to every type of Rudiment/Accent pattern I play but a fair few).

Hope you're well,

Kev

[MaT]

I've started playing open handed a year ago. Now I feel pretty comfortable with it although I can't play funky-tricky-grooves while left leading.

One other thing that I can't do very well is to play around opening and closing the hi-hat as freely as if I were leading with my right hand.

BTW, I try to keep the hi hat at the same height it was when I played with my right hand all the time.

[Dedworx]

For a few years now, I have devoted some of my practice time to open-handed playing. I've not been doing this because I desire to play open-handed, but primarily as a way to develop my left hand (which has worked quite well). Also, I wanted to be able to switch over if I want to play a pattern where open-handed would be advantageous, such as playing the hats and toms together. I've gotten a lot better at it, but I'm still nowhere as good at playing this way as I am with cross-sticking.

So, I was wondering how many of you open-handed players started out this way from the beginning, and how many are "converts." I imagine it would be kind of hard to convert after playing cross-stick for a long time, but I'm sure it has been done. I wanted to make a poll, but I don't see an option to do so (??). So, I will just await responses. Thanks.

hi, i played for 5 years before trying out playing open handed. so i guess that makes me a "convert"?

now i play left hand lead for hats and right hand lead for ride stuff. though i still feel better using right hand lead for "two handed" hat patterns and things using a cross stick.

for me it didn't come easy, or really sound that good for quite a while, but eventually it clicked and now it feels good to play either way. it took about a year to start using it on gigs.

the concepts isn't hard, it just requires time and patience. anyone interested in the idea and not playing around with it as yet, should definately try it out, in time you'd have it down too.

[jivadayadasa]

Dedworx is right on the money - I have been at it for a two weeks now and I am already seeing major improvement (at least for me). First few days were excruciating but now I am playing some of my favorite, basic but challenging funk/fusion grooves with bass loops on my mac for 5 or 10 minutes at a time. That is really helping me to not stagnate with the repetition and to keep focusing on musicality and not just execution. I understand that it's not that interesting for everyone but I am now pretty certain that if I stick to this I will that much more confident and comfortable behind the kit.

[zoom]

Hi guys,I have been playing open for years,how did I start I am naturally left handed and right footed. So when I began I really wasnt aware of crossing. I sought out the best and naturally discovered Billy.and,Simon....So it all looked normal,aged 17.

But over the years I became very frustrated with not being able go right with ease. It,s as clauss Hessler states, drums are an ambidextrous instrument.

I saw Billy and Simon here in Perth,West Australia,and it was apparent from the start this was the key. So too you guys who are CROSS DOMINANT you have to bring your right hand up to your left,and vice versa. There are advantages to playing open.At my age now I am totally blown away/and surprised that it is being viewed as the "new" way too go.
Billy started doing it in 1954.......Get clauss Hesslers book its surprised me too.

[Naigewron]

I practice this for fun and variation from time to time, but I never tried to make it my primary mode of playing. I've been considering it, but every time I think about it I find so many other things that I'd rather work on that it never becomes a priority. I'd love to be able to do it comfortably though, both because of how it opens up new possibilities for the snare hand, and because it strengthens the weak hand.

I know Simon Phillips (one of the most well-known open-handed players) started doing it in his late teens or early 20s, and Dom Famularo (as was mantioned further up in the thread) only made the conversion a few years ago.

[tonyp123]

I've been incorporating open-handed playing into my practice time lately. Not so much to use all the time, but as a method to help develop coordination and open up the sticking options for unique patterns. Also gives me an opportunity to practice French grip (thumbs up) on the left hand when playing hi-hat.

You many want to check out Gary Chester's book, "The New Breed". He promotes open-handed playing--he refers to it as "territorial rights"--and many of the exercises develop this approach.

[jivadayadasa]

Hi guys,I have been playing open for years,how did I start I am naturally left handed and right footed. So when I began I really wasnt aware of crossing. I sought out the best and naturally discovered Billy.and,Simon....So it all looked normal,aged 17.

But over the years I became very frustrated with not being able go right with ease. It,s as clauss Hessler states, drums are an ambidextrous instrument.

I saw Billy and Simon here in Perth,West Australia,and it was apparent from the start this was the key. So too you guys who are CROSS DOMINANT you have to bring your right hand up to your left,and vice versa. There are advantages to playing open.At my age now I am totally blown away/and surprised that it is being viewed as the "new" way too go.
Billy started doing it in 1954.......Get clauss Hesslers book its surprised me too.

Clauss Hessler is a wonderful drummer and I really like his book. It will definitely keep you busy and help you find ways to get creative with open-handed playing. I have corresponded with him quite a bit during my 4 month "open-handed journey" and will say that he is very generous with his time and is extremely supportive of aspiring drummers like myself.

I am now playing with a band and attempting to play open-handed 90+% of the time. It has been and continues to be a major challenge - but that's what I'm here for. It has consequently been one of the most gratifying experiences in my somewhat "checkered" career as a musician.

[Deathmetalconga]

The story goes something like this;

My friend taught me Drums and the first ever lesson I sat down and just started playing open, he asked me if I wanted him to swap the kit around (as I'm a naturally left-handed person anyway) and I just told him not to bother and I'd play it as it was. Because the whole Foot to Hand co-ordination would of been new to me anyway it didn't really come into my mind that I was using my right Foot on the Bass and left Foot on the Hats, either way I would of had to learn from scratch with neither side being advantageous over the other. As for the Toms I didn't really care where they were placed, I had to learn how to play a Beat first! who needs Toms at this stage right?

For the first two Years or so of my playing I never used a Ride Cymbal, didn't even know what one was!, so when I got introduced to it I thought the natural thing to do would be to place it on my left where my leading Hand was.

This how I'm setting up these Days:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4123954144_3f35d7f66b_o.jpg

And that's is all there is to it, a combination of sheer oblviousness and making do.

Hope you're all well,

Kev

I could sit behind your set and play without any problem.

I started playing in 1983 and my first teacher played open, left hand hats and ride, and insisted I do the same. I have never played crossed and I have always had my ride cymbal to the left - sometimes even to the left of the hats. I am naturally right-handed and I like having my dominant hand on the snare; it is the heart of the drum set and deserves the extra dexterity of my right hand. There are huge advantages to having your snare, hats and ride all close together.

No one eats, drives, types, uses tools or plays any other instrument with their arms crossed, simply because it is more convenient and natural to keep the arms uncrossed. Notice how crossed players always put their ride cymbal on the right; they don't like crossing their arms either!

I invite each of you to join the open-handed players group below.

[toddy]

nice post deathmetalconga, i agree. i also like using my dominant hand on the snare. i also like having hi hats/rides on the left and right, it just makes it more interesting!

[Deathmetalconga]

nice post deathmetalconga, i agree. i also like using my dominant hand on the snare. i also like having hi hats/rides on the left and right, it just makes it more interesting!

Yes, there are big advantages to having your dominant hand on snare. But I have noticed an urge every now and then to play ride with my right hand. All kinds of new patterns come out.

I think it is important to not confuse open playing with ambidextrous playing (people often do that, but so far not on this thread). I am just as set in my assigned hand roles as any other player; I just happen to like playing open.

I like the approach of Pass.of.E.r.a. If someone is comfortable playing crossed, it is a huge undertaking to reassign hand roles. Pass.of.E.r.a.'s approach is simply to move the set around to accommodate open playing and that's a better way to do it, I think.

[jivadayadasa]

I guess I fit into the ambidextrous group since I lead with left and right depending on what and where I'm playing on the set. I am now wondering why it is "important" not to confuse these two?

[toddy]

oh yes sorry. i was taking it more from ambidextrous too.. although i do play open handed aswell for some songs. i guess i just like to play in different ways. my drums are still set up in the 'right hand' positions though. i need to get a floor tom for my left..

[MattJ]

I played open-handed from the beginning, since I taught myself. I had no idea why anyone would cross their hands to play, and it wasn't until years later when I went to a teacher to learn jazz that I realized how much in the minority I was, LOL. He was pulling his hair out trying to teach me, since he was a traditional cross-hand player. The upside is, I learned to be somewhat ambidextrous, since I learned to play jazz with the ride on my right, instead of the left, as I normally do for rock.

[Deathmetalconga]

I guess I fit into the ambidextrous group since I lead with left and right depending on what and where I'm playing on the set. I am now wondering why it is "important" not to confuse these two?

Ambidexterity means training each hand to do what the other does - either hand can play ride, either can play snare, either can lead, equally well (or that is the goal at least).

Playing open means you don't cross your hands to play hats. I have always played open, but I am just as rigid in my assigned hand roles as the traditional crossed player. My left hand always plays hats and ride and very little snare and my right hand always plays snare and virtually no hats or ride. I have little interest in ambidexterity.

I think some of the confusion between ambidexterity and open playing is because most ambidextrous players play open, but playing open doesn't necessarily mean you are ambidextrous.

[jivadayadasa]

I think some of the confusion between ambidexterity and open playing is because most ambidextrous players play open, but playing open doesn't necessarily mean you are ambidextrous.

I see where the confusion comes from - thanks for the post!

[pcjazzdrums]

That's where I'm having problems - little flourishes on the hats and ghost notes on the snare. What pretty much comes natural playing cross handed requires some practice to play open handed. And more practice to get it really right.

It keeps getting better though and has really opened up the ability to do more things like play some percussion parts while playing the normal parts with the weaker hand.

I agree with this comment. I only sporadically play open-handed, and while I can function like this, everything is just a little bit harder. I find that it's similar to learning traditional grip at first if you started matched-- you can usually execute patterns but not with the same precision.

Playing open-handed is a great way to help develop everything in your left hand, and this month's DRUM! magazine has a quick section on playing funk open-handed. It can really help out with your feel and it's a good thing to work on.

[X14Halo]

I have been playing for about 16 years now. I started in elementary school, and my teacher was left handed so he played open handed...so I copied him thinking this was the correct way to play. Then eventually in middle school I started taking private lessons, and for those I played cross handed. So I guess you could say I play a little of both, but when I am playing at home, I prefer open handed...it just feels better to me. I have alot more control on the snare drum with ghost notes and such with my right hand. But then again, if I switch up to cross handed in the middle of playing, I can do lots of things on the hihat. It is definetely beneficial to know how to play both ways comfortably. I wish my left hand could do what my right hand can : (

[jivadayadasa]

I wish my left hand could do what my right hand can : (

Querer es poder... You can do it if you put in some time. You're lucky to have had an open-handed teacher starting out. Thanks for posting!

[zoom]

Clauss Hessler is a wonderful drummer and I really like his book. It will definitely keep you busy and help you find ways to get creative with open-handed playing. I have corresponded with him quite a bit during my 4 month "open-handed journey" and will say that he is very generous with his time and is extremely supportive of aspiring drummers like myself.

I am now playing with a band and attempting to play open-handed 90+% of the time. It has been and continues to be a major challenge - but that's what I'm here for. It has consequently been one of the most gratifying experiences in my somewhat "checkered" career as a musician.

I agree the hessler book is a revelation to me as a cross dominant drummer,I found myself wondering what it would contain. I found the beggining grooves were things I had been doing for years,but as I go deeper,I find I am being taught a methodology,and most importantly someone is finally speaking my language.

[Coldhardsteel]

I truly wish I could play open-handed more easily, because I'd love to be able to move around the kit with less strain on anything.

But what I've found is that my right hand and left hand have kind of switched roles relative to those who have posted before me. My left hand has more control and finesse than my right hand, and I suppose muscle memory has caused it to get into a groove that holds it to the "snare hand" title. When I play open-handed, not only do I have trouble carrying the eighth notes with my left hand on the hats, the volume also fluctuates.

My right hand is designated as the hi-hat hand, the one with the cymbal dynamics and the driving power. It has less finesse on the snare for some reason, but it does fine on cymbals.

I wonder if anyone else has had this problem/experience.

[Witterings]

I truly wish I could play open-handed more easily, because I'd love to be able to move around the kit with less strain on anything.

But what I've found is that my right hand and left hand have kind of switched roles relative to those who have posted before me. My left hand has more control and finesse than my right hand, and I suppose muscle memory has caused it to get into a groove that holds it to the "snare hand" title. When I play open-handed, not only do I have trouble carrying the eighth notes with my left hand on the hats, the volume also fluctuates.

My right hand is designated as the hi-hat hand, the one with the cymbal dynamics and the driving power. It has less finesse on the snare for some reason, but it does fine on cymbals.

I wonder if anyone else has had this problem/experience.

To a degree though you're starting over, if you go back to the day you very 1st sat behind a kit you're right hand on the snare would have been pretty useless and you certainly didn't start playing ghost notes it was probably all you could do just to hit the snare somewhere close to being in time and I'll bet you're beat on the HH was all over the place as well with varying volume. Everthing you can do with the left hand on snare and right on high hat now now you've learnt over the time you've been playing, now you need to learn to be able to so it the other way round.
I only started playing open handed a few weeks ago and my right on the snare is absolutely awful, suprisingly worse than my left on the High hat but it's that that'll drive me to keep doing it (work on your weak points) and already I've seen a huge impovement especially in the left hand over those few weeks. I'm also finding I'm starting some fills with my left hand which I've never really done before.
Think I'll keep going with it (not a gigs or when it's important) for another 6 months and see how I feel about it then but even in a short period of time I feel it's benefitted my playing.

[Deathmetalconga]

I truly wish I could play open-handed more easily, because I'd love to be able to move around the kit with less strain on anything.

But what I've found is that my right hand and left hand have kind of switched roles relative to those who have posted before me. My left hand has more control and finesse than my right hand, and I suppose muscle memory has caused it to get into a groove that holds it to the "snare hand" title. When I play open-handed, not only do I have trouble carrying the eighth notes with my left hand on the hats, the volume also fluctuates.

My right hand is designated as the hi-hat hand, the one with the cymbal dynamics and the driving power. It has less finesse on the snare for some reason, but it does fine on cymbals.

I wonder if anyone else has had this problem/experience.

My feeling is that if you are set in your ways and comfortable with playing crossed, then why change? There is a huge amount of re-learning that has to take place and the effort could be spent on developing new skills, not re-learning old ones.

If what you're really after is ambidexterity - the ability to play things equally well on either hand - then you should go through the trouble to learn open playing. Keep in mind, though, that ambidexterity will be the primary result of your efforts. Playing open will be almost an afterthought.

Unless you want to learn ambidexterity or you need to change your playing to avoid injury, I think you should stick with what you have learned and are comfortable with, whether it's crossed or open.

[K.Howden]

I am naturally right-handed and I like having my dominant hand on the snare; it is the heart of the drum set and deserves the extra dexterity of my right hand.

Hmm that's really interesting, see I'm a naturally left-handed person and even though I've played open from the very beginning my right hand is still my most dominant. I have the same mindset as you, I'd rather my snare hand have more dexterity than my "leading" hand because like you said it's the heart of the drumset, unless the music called for it I don't see how having the same level of dexterity in the left hand is as important because the left hand is providing a steady pulse, be it on the ride or hats and doesn't call for the finesse of the snare hand.

That last statement as it may be though, I have started learning Jazz so naturally my left hand is now developing the same dexterity that my right has. From this I'm seeing all kinds of results; especially when executing rudiments on the snare and in fills, my left hand is much more controlled dynamically and I seem to be able create much more interesting hybrids and combinations of rudiments and be able to start say a paraddidle leading of the right and change into another rudiment for example a sextuplet paradiddle-diddle during a left hand stroke...the fith sixteenth note in pattern for instance.

In short you could say I've gone through a very wierd and maybe backwards way of learning to play drums. I've done the hard part first; which is training my 'weaker' hand to be as good as my leading hand and then kept going to the point that my dominant hand has swtiched, I see bringing the left side up to scratch as being a much easier prospect now seen as I've always lead my grooves with that way.

This is a seriously interesting thread!

Hope everyone is keeping well,

Kev

[Jeff Almeyda]

Truthfully, I went the other way. I started out playing crossed like almost everyone else. Then, I played open for almost 5 years. I developed the ability to play pretty much everything that way. I went through all of New Breed 4 times!

Last year, I went into the studio and ran through several songs, with both r and l hand lead. Bottom line, the right hand lead (crossed) takes had a better feel and grooved more. This was after 5 YEARS of open handed playing.

I'm talking subtle differences but still noticeable ones to my ears.

Now, I ask you open handed (left hand lead on left side hi hat) players. Why are you playing open handed? I often hear that it "opens up the hands so that I can play stuff on the toms while I play the hi hat too" Nice argument but I have never heard anything from an open handed player (Simon and Carter included) that couldn't be played by a "conventional" player.

"Crossing your hands is unnatural" is another argument. Who says? The fact is that when the hands are crossed and you have everything nice and tucked in you can groove and sizzle and pop like nobody's business. Ask Steve Gadd or Bernard Purdie. Tommy Igoe has been working with me on this for a few months and the results have been startling.

"You can get a higher backbeat with hands uncrossed" Properly developed snare technique will allow you to play loud from a low height (like Bruce Lee's one inch punch).

If you want to play open handed great but don't forget for a second that that is a secondary concern. Your first and only duty is to serve the music. You have only a finite number of hours of practice time in this life. You should spend the most effort on those things which will allow you to serve the music, not necessarily your ideas about drumming ergonomics.

[SickRick]

Truthfully, I went the other way. I started out playing crossed like almost everyone else. Then, I played open for almost 5 years. I developed the ability to play pretty much everything that way. I went through all of New Breed 4 times!

Last year, I went into the studio and ran through several songs, with both r and l hand lead. Bottom line, the right hand lead (crossed) takes had a better feel and grooved more. This was after 5 YEARS of open handed playing.

I'm talking subtle differences but still noticeable ones to my ears.

Now, I ask you open handed (left hand lead on left side hi hat) players. Why are you playing open handed? I often hear that it "opens up the hands so that I can play stuff on the toms while I play the hi hat too" Nice argument but I have never heard anything from an open handed player (Simon and Carter included) that couldn't be played by a "conventional" player.

"Crossing your hands is unnatural" is another argument. Who says? The fact is that when the hands are crossed and you have everything nice and tucked in you can groove and sizzle and pop like nobody's business. Ask Steve Gadd or Bernard Purdie. Tommy Igoe has been working with me on this for a few months and the results have been startling.

"You can get a higher backbeat with hands uncrossed" Properly developed snare technique will allow you to play loud from a low height (like Bruce Lee's one inch punch).

If you want to play open handed great but don't forget for a second that that is a secondary concern. Your first and only duty is to serve the music. You have only a finite number of hours of practice time in this life. You should spend the most effort on those things which will allow you to serve the music, not necessarily your ideas about drumming ergonomics.

Same here exactly. I can play most of my bands show even on a lefty kit because I spent many hours working on open handed playing and left hand lead. It's nice to have that amount of coordination, but in reality: Playing crossed feels better, sounds more tight and gives me a better feeling of being locked into the groove.

I had this argument on this board already, so I'll stay out of the way this time, but if anyone here cares for the viewpoint of a guy who can actually play both ways, here it is: I believe it's absolutely overrated.

I still teach most of my students both ways though, because of the obvious benefits in coordination and left hand strength.

[JPW]

Same here exactly. I can play most of my bands show even on a lefty kit because I spent many hours working on open handed playing and left hand lead. It's nice to have that amount of coordination, but in reality: Playing crossed feels better, sounds more tight and gives me a better feeling of being locked into the groove.

I had this argument on this board already, so I'll stay out of the way this time, but if anyone here cares for the viewpoint of a guy who can actually play both ways, here it is: I believe it's absolutely overrated.

I still teach most of my students both ways though, because of the obvious benefits in coordination and left hand strength.

When we play improvised stuff or just grooving with the band it's a whole body experience. Everything affects everything. It's not only the emotions in your mind that affect how you feel when playing. It's a completely different feeling when playing open handed when playing cross handed. It's really hard to describe for me. I'll just say it's a really different experience and you get very different ideas. Remeber that different parts of your brain control the different muscles so of course you will see difference in musical ideas.

For this reason alone I have been thinking about switching to traditional grip. Not because it's a superior technique-wise. It isn't. But because I'm starting to think that there might be more interesting musical ideas to be had. I don't know why, propably because of the "different parts of the brain are involved"-thing. But it doesn't matter why it happens, because it happens. =P

[SickRick]

When we play improvised stuff or just grooving with the band it's a whole body experience. Everything affects everything. It's not only the emotions in your mind that affect how you feel when playing. It's a completely different feeling when playing open handed when playing cross handed. It's really hard to describe for me. I'll just say it's a really different experience and you get very different ideas. Remeber that different parts of your brain control the different muscles so of course you will see difference in musical ideas.

For this reason alone I have been thinking about switching to traditional grip. Not because it's a superior technique-wise. It isn't. But because I'm starting to think that there might be more interesting musical ideas to be had. I don't know why, propably because of the "different parts of the brain are involved"-thing. But it doesn't matter why it happens, because it happens. =P

I don't want to start any sort of argument here because I think that would be pointless - there will always be guys who promote open handed playing because they spent years on developing it and there will be others that don't feel the need to do that. Just that much: As a drummer who actually has done all these things like switching to trad back and forth, playing open handed, playing left hand lead, even playing a lefty kit for a while I can say this: Yes, you have different ideas and play different stuff. It also feels different.
It's just that at least for me, it doesn't feel as good, the ideas that I have that way are not as good musically speaking and the different stuff that I come up with that way just sucks.

To me this really is a simple matter. You can intellectualize it as much as you want, but for me the fact remains that anything I play open-handed just doesn't feel and sound as good as things that I play crossed. As a sidenote I have also noticed that effect when I see other drummers who switch back and forth between open and crossed.

I do see some benefits though, so I don't think it's a bad thing in itself. It just doesn't apply musically to me. It might be different for others, but look at Jeffs post (who is quite obviously one of the better players on this board) - I'm not alone with my standpoint.

[JPW]

I don't want to start any sort of argument here because I think that would be pointless - there will always be guys who promote open handed playing because they spent years on developing it and there will be others that don't feel the need to do that. Just that much: As a drummer who actually has done all these things like switching to trad back and forth, playing open handed, playing left hand lead, even playing a lefty kit for a while I can say this: Yes, you have different ideas and play different stuff. It also feels different.
It's just that at least for me, it doesn't feel as good, the ideas that I have that way are not as good musically speaking and the different stuff that I come up with that way just sucks.

To me this really is a simple matter. You can intellectualize it as much as you want, but for me the fact remains that anything I play open-handed just doesn't feel and sound as good as things that I play crossed. As a sidenote I have also noticed that effect when I see other drummers who switch back and forth between open and crossed.

I do see some benefits though, so I don't think it's a bad thing in itself. It just doesn't apply musically to me. It might be different for others, but look at Jeffs post (who is quite obviously one of the better players on this board) - I'm not alone with my standpoint.

That was really my point. If the system/technique you are using enables you to use the musical ideas / sounds you want it's all good. If you aren't satisfied, try something different. If that doesn't work out switch back. Only thing that bothers me is that we have limited amount of time on our hands to practice this stuff. So I like to 'intellctualize' it as much as possible to be able to use my limited time on the most important stuff, for me. I don't like to take risks that might lose huge portion of that limited time I have.

That said, I only practice open handed in a coordination excercise type of context. I don't feel I can get anything nearly as great ideas like that what I can get with more traditional approach. Even though I can play almost everything with left hand lead, it just feels wrong all the time and sounds stupid.

BTW (off topic) SickRick, which you prefer these days, traditional or matched, in terms of musical ideas?

[SickRick]

BTW (off topic) SickRick, which you prefer these days, traditional or matched, in terms of musical ideas?

First: I'm just not a guy who likes to think about how to spend my practise time... At all stages of my development up until now I always did what felt right at the time. I never thought things like: I have X hours of time over the next X weeks, how do I spend them most effectivly? I always just do things that seem to be right.

I did go through the Mangini-Method phase though, but only because at that time I thought it would be the right thing to do.

Anyway... About trad and matched: This really pans around in phases. Ususally they are a year of two long - for that time I almost exclusively use one way to hold my sticks and then, all of a sudden I get bored with it and switch. And everyime I make the switch I think: "This time it's for good".

Right now I only play matched. Even Jazz. The only thing I practise trad is rudiments, but I don't do that a lot :)

[jivadayadasa]

If someone is looking for the "open-handed fan club", it ain't here...

I thought this thread was about how people got started with this approach and where they are with it now. As soon as one begins to explain why they play this way, it appears as if there's an agenda being pushed in order to convert everyone else out there. Then the retaliation starts. All extremely valid points, but enough to convince the other?

It turns into something like a "You can't swing using matched grip" thread.

JPW,

I would definitely say that if it feels wrong - don't do it. The people I know who like this approach do it because it feels great and adds to their musicality.

And if it sounds stupid - one might question whether you actually can play almost everything with left hand lead.

Drum and let drum...

[JPW]

First: I'm just not a guy who likes to think about how to spend my practise time... At all stages of my development up until now I always did what felt right at the time. I never thought things like: I have X hours of time over the next X weeks, how do I spend them most effectivly? I always just do things that seem to be right.

I did go through the Mangini-Method phase though, but only because at that time I thought it would be the right thing to do.

Anyway... About trad and matched: This really pans around in phases. Ususally they are a year of two long - for that time I almost exclusively use one way to hold my sticks and then, all of a sudden I get bored with it and switch. And everyime I make the switch I think: "This time it's for good".

Right now I only play matched. Even Jazz. The only thing I practise trad is rudiments, but I don't do that a lot :)

I guess you are a professional drum player then or at least going to be. If I didn't have to study and have other hobbies and a soon to be wife I would propably also practice like you do. But now I have to really organize and optimize my time to be able to play on the level I love to and to be able to practice the 4-6 hours a day I try to do. Though I see this as a phase in sense too that I have certain goals (not really anything like 300bpm blast or anything, DW has helped me to shape more reasonable ones) and when reach them I'm free to do stuff more freely.

I guess your grip history makes sense. I'm still not sure if I'm ever able to play traditional with the fluidity I can with mathced since I have fractured my hand and the bones are a bit different than they used to and they really restrict the radius-ulna rotation. But then again, I'm not sure if it restricts it enough to really bother. Time will tell.

I guess some will have same kind of phases with open handed playing as you have had with your grips.

What I really would like to know how many times these changes in grips and postures and 'systems' are really permanent or do we just eventually come back to with which we started in the first place. Usually the later is the case with hand and foot techniques. Although I'm a heel-down convert these days. =P

[JPW]

And if it sounds stupid - one might question whether you actually can play almost everything with left hand lead.

Drum and let drum...

I guess it's a bit semantic question. What I meant was that I can play the notes as they are written, but the sound produced is different, because the microtiming and dynamic nyances are different depending on how I play. Of course you can make it better with practice but I doubt they will ever be the same, especially in improvisational context. It's hard to explain fully what I mean. Part of it is always the coordination problems but that doesn't explain all of it, it's the ideas that don't sound so good. And I also have to question if it really is worth the effort to convert fully. There's so much else to do. =P

[jivadayadasa]

I guess it's a bit semantic question. What I meant was that I can play the notes as they are written, but the sound produced is different, because the microtiming and dynamic nyances are different depending on how I play. Of course you can make it better with practice but I doubt they will ever be the same, especially in improvisational context. It's hard to explain fully what I mean. Part of it is always the coordination problems but that doesn't explain all of it, it's the ideas that don't sound so good. And I also have to question if it really is worth the effort to convert fully. There's so much else to do. =P

I definitely get what your sayin'

Peace

[Deathmetalconga]

"Crossing your hands is unnatural" is another argument. Who says? The fact is that when the hands are crossed and you have everything nice and tucked in you can groove and sizzle and pop like nobody's business. Ask Steve Gadd or Bernard Purdie. Tommy Igoe has been working with me on this for a few months and the results have been startling.



I'll bet you didn't type this with your hands crossed.

I'll bet you don't eat cross-handed. Or drive. Or use tools. Or play piano, or guitar, or clarinet. People just don't do it much and I'm sure they have their reasons.

I don't advocate anyone changing if they're already comfortable playing crossed. I have always played open (left hand hats and ride) and I love the natural feel of it. I rarely cross my hands, so I am as set in my assigned hand roles and any typical crossed drummer. I do not value ambidexterity in my playing so I have never worked at it.

Ergonomically, it seems bizarre to me to cross the hands to do anything. Even crossed players put their ride on the right, so they can play open whenever they get a chance.

[sabian92]

It seems I go against the grain here - I actually learned to play open handed (I'm a lefty) from the start THEN taught myself crossed. I wished I'd have just learned crossed but left handed - I'd be a far better drummer than I am now. I suck because I can't do a roll around a kit or I make both arms go for the same thing and the like - I'm very "Ringo" in that sense. I can keep time, but anything fancy - No way, José.

It's actually very weird - I lead with BOTH hands. Let me explain...

I play with my right hand on my hats, left on the snare. If I go to do a snare roll, or a roll around the toms (but not a straight 4 on each, I can't do that), I automatically switch to my left hand, then when I finish I switch back to my right. The only advantage is right handed drummer just cannot play the same fills as me. They don't know how because of how I play them (being technically ambidextrous behind the kit).

[SickRick]

I'll bet you didn't type this with your hands crossed.

I'll bet you don't eat cross-handed. Or drive. Or use tools. Or play piano, or guitar, or clarinet. People just don't do it much and I'm sure they have their reasons.

I don't advocate anyone changing if they're already comfortable playing crossed. I have always played open (left hand hats and ride) and I love the natural feel of it. I rarely cross my hands, so I am as set in my assigned hand roles and any typical crossed drummer. I do not value ambidexterity in my playing so I have never worked at it.

Ergonomically, it seems bizarre to me to cross the hands to do anything. Even crossed players put their ride on the right, so they can play open whenever they get a chance.


I don't cross my hands either. Actually, if I think about it: I don't know one player who does.

You don't need to cross your hands to play crossed. All you have to do is cross your sticks. When I play a groove between HiHat and Snare, my right hand is almost above my right leg and my left hand is almost above my left leg, both hands just slightly moved more towards the center of my body. That way my right stick perfectly hits the HiHat and my left stick perfectly hits the center of the snare.


I think it's great to have a discussion about this topic, but I think it would be even nicer if we could leave out all the unnecessary made up abra-cadabra facts and stay with the real facts. Suggesting that you need to cross your hands to cross your sticks quite obviously is far from reality (unless you use real short sticks).

[ALazyLlama]

Though I play on a right handed kit, I am actually a lefty, so I do sometimes play open handed when I feel like it. But., I prefer "crossed" playing (though my arms aren't really crossed, just the sticks, like other people have said). As a lefty, I do lead all of my rolls, fills and rudiments with my left, which can sometimes be awkward. For example, with 16th notes on the hi-hat, if I want to hit the snare, I have to reach my left arm under my right. For that reason, I've been training myself to lead with my right hand when necessary, so I'm becoming fairly ambidextrous on the kit.

[jivadayadasa]

So, I was wondering how many of you open-handed players started out this way from the beginning, and how many are "converts." I imagine it would be kind of hard to convert after playing cross-stick for a long time, but I'm sure it has been done. I wanted to make a poll, but I don't see an option to do so (??). So, I will just await responses. Thanks.

So this thread was started as a poll and NOT as 50 reasons to play open-handed complete with rebuttles???????????

[matthew]

I taught myself the drums for 6 months before I got a teacher. I naturally picked up the sticks in matched grip and played open handed. Maybe this is because I hadn’t seen a lot of drummers, and I picked up the instrument on a whim, and hence wasn’t influenced by what I would have seen, had I paid any attention to how drummers drum. Interestingly, when I got my first drum lesson, my teacher didn’t teach me to play cross handed. I think this was highly modern and progressive of him.

these days i played cross handed!*

i bet you didnt see that curve ball coming!

true story :)

* mainly because i primarily play traditional grip, but sometimes do openhanded with matched grip.

Also my teacher taught me traditional open handed... very weird! you should have seen me and the other drummers in his community big band playing like that. I'd freak if i saw some one do that! haha

[eric_B]

In case anyone's interested: I regard myself just a rooky, started 3 years ago, playing right-handed, although I'm a lefty. After a couple of months, I was feeling this held me back, so I switched to playing left-handed, but open-handed. So with the snare on the left and the hihat on the right but also keeping the ride right and the main crash left.

This seems to be most natural to me and I can keep my hihat very low, which I prefer. Some first problems were going from 8ths to 16ths on the hihat because I have to switch from leading with the right to leading with the left hand, but this came quickly. Most fills come naturally, but certain right-handed patterns give some trouble. And I'm quicker doing Moeller style single strokes with my left hand although that would be more useful with my right. It just needs more practice.

A downside is I always have to change the setup of every kit I play, I can never just sit and play. That was a real pain in the ass at a gig in February this year because we had to start playing without having enough time to setup the kit properly. I managed to persevere this short gig (30 minutes) but had a bad time.

[Deathmetalconga]

In case anyone's interested: I regard myself just a rooky, started 3 years ago, playing right-handed, although I'm a lefty. After a couple of months, I was feeling this held me back, so I switched to playing left-handed, but open-handed. So with the snare on the left and the hihat on the right but also keeping the ride right and the main crash left.

This seems to be most natural to me and I can keep my hihat very low, which I prefer. Some first problems were going from 8ths to 16ths on the hihat because I have to switch from leading with the right to leading with the left hand, but this came quickly. Most fills come naturally, but certain right-handed patterns give some trouble. And I'm quicker doing Moeller style single strokes with my left hand although that would be more useful with my right. It just needs more practice.

A downside is I always have to change the setup of every kit I play, I can never just sit and play. That was a real pain in the ass at a gig in February this year because we had to start playing without having enough time to setup the kit properly. I managed to persevere this short gig (30 minutes) but had a bad time.

Have you ever thought of keeping a ride close to your hats, and playing ride with the left hand? There are some huge advantages to keeping the hats and ride close to each other.

[Stalwart_Pandora-Chris]

I play open-handed SOMETIMES, I started about a year or two ago. If the song requires it or going in from a fill or out or playing some disco I'll play openhanded. or if I'm doing a bass-floor tom double bass thing. But that's it. I play both ways :) I play traditionally sometimes too for drags and ghost notes and sometimes accents or just play it constantly. Usually matched though.

Cheers

[Spinozalove]

I have been practicing open-handed for a while now. I have been playing crossed for twenty years, and in the short time I have been practicing open, I have seen big improvements in my playing. My left hand is getting much better than it ever has been, and my coordination is improving drastically. I am still not playing open at gigs, but it will happen soon. It is changing the way I see the drum kit in front of me and the way I connect to it. Clause Hessler's book is fantastic too.

[eric_B]

Have you ever thought of keeping a ride close to your hats, and playing ride with the left hand? There are some huge advantages to keeping the hats and ride close to each other.

Yeah, I already do, I attached a pic of my setup.

[Davethis]

Great topic !
I'm a left-handed drummer that plays a righty set-up. I started playing drums late in life at 28 and started with a traditional lefty set-up but 6 months in I got injured and really couldnt play bass drum with my left foot at all so I switched over and played with my right. At first it as very tough to keep a groove consistent but with a little practice it became easier however my right foot has always felt a little weak. Nice even 16th notes are always a challenge (I only play single pedal) but my hi-hat work is pretty strong with my left foot. I also have a hard time playing 16ths on the high hat - seems there just isn't enough room to move my left stick onto the snare drum - not impossible but barely comfortable. Anybody have similar problems? Anybody know specific exercises to develop a weak right foot for bass pedal ? Thanks y'all

[Deathmetalconga]

Yeah, I already do, I attached a pic of my setup.

Whoa, trippy! That is the mirror opposite of my setup. Don't see that everyday. I like your setup.

If you play how everyone else plays, you will sound like everyone else.

[eric_B]

Anybody know specific exercises to develop a weak right foot for bass pedal ? Thanks y'all

You could try practicing this exercise, alternating both feet, to strengthen your feet: http://krachttraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/CalfRaise.jpg

The emphasis should be on a lot of short, powerful movements with no weight (you can try it standing on a stair step - if that's the right word) instead of a few slow motions with a lot of weight.

Whoa, trippy! That is the mirror opposite of my setup. Don't see that everyday. I like your setup.

If you play how everyone else plays, you will sound like everyone else.

You play like that as well? It's great to play 16ths alternating on the ride and hat or doubles or whatever patterns you think of. And you can also throw in some funky of beat ghost snare strokes.

[Deathmetalconga]

You play like that as well? It's great to play 16ths alternating on the ride and hat or doubles or whatever patterns you think of. And you can also throw in some funky of beat ghost snare strokes.

As you know, there are huge advantages to having your hats, ride and snare close to each other. Your hats hand is never trapped under your snare hand and your snare hand is free to play toms and snare. I have some sound clips demonstrating this on my kit thread.

[eric_B]

As you know, there are huge advantages to having your hats, ride and snare close to each other. Your hats hand is never trapped under your snare hand and your snare hand is free to play toms and snare. I have some sound clips demonstrating this on my kit thread.

That's pretty cool, nice rhythms and playing!

[Davethis]

You could try practicing this exercise, alternating both feet, to strengthen your feet: http://krachttraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/CalfRaise.jpg

The emphasis should be on a lot of short, powerful movements with no weight (you can try it standing on a stair step - if that's the right word) instead of a few slow motions with a lot of weight.




You play like that as well? It's great to play 16ths alternating on the ride and hat or doubles or whatever patterns you think of. And you can also throw in some funky of beat ghost snare strokes.

nice - ill try it - good for the achillies too