Finger technique: can't get past 240bpm - help!!

[T-1000]

Hey guys, I've been using the Jojo Mayer method of practicing (play 100 4-stroke counts per hand, on metronome value x, then repeat increasing value x on the metronome by 5bpm until you can't keep up). Using this practice technique I've become stuck at 240bpm using finger technique.

When you broke past this speed barrier, how did you practice to do it?

I know lots of people will say "SLOW IT RIGHT DOWN, and play for several hours continuously at this slow speed" (and Jojo himself recommends doing this to supplement the 'speed training') BUT - very importantly - for finger technique it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to slow the motion down. It's not that it requires a lot of concentration - it's impossible.

True finger motion where you're 'dribbling' the stick with the back 3 fingers only kicks in at about 160bpm - slower than that and what you're doing is dropping the stick and then CATCHING it again, not dribbling it continuously. Therefore, this motion is completely different from true finger technique.

Think about the bouncing a basketball. If you wanted to continuously dribble it (without catching it at any point) very slowly, you'd have to bounce it very high - like over your head. With a drumstick you don't have the option to bounce the stick very high so in short you CAN'T practice finger technique slowly.

So, given that I can't slow the motion right down, how would you guys recommend someone like me should practice to break this speed barrier?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

Keep trying to slow it down. Jojo is an authority, I suggest taking his advice.

[The Bassist]

I'd say practice your maximum a lot, and then try to go just over your max. In time, even though you'll start out sloppy, you will get more comfortable with that speed and things will begin to fall in place. Of course there is some limit to how fast you can go, and 240 seems to be very fast, and I haven't gone this fast myself, but I use that method to build speed on things when slowing down doesn't seem to help.

[larryace]

All I can share with you is how I treat that kind of issue. Right or wrong, this is what works for me, and it's only my opinion.

If you want to get past 240, at some point you'll have to go faster than 240. I see no other way other than to just power through it, clumsy as it may feel at first, and just keep doing it until it doesn't feel clumsy. Sometimes you just have to play like a spaz to break through barriers and to give your brain a chance to adapt to firing at a faster rate than you are currently able to.

In other words, push through it.

In some way, you have to expend more energy. (or use the energy you are expending more efficiently) This will probably fly in the face of everyone who says slow down, which is another way of doing it, (I think it's slower though) but I just power through it, to the devil if it's feels and sounds spastic for the first 20 minutes. Like JoJo says, how fast can you think?

[donv]

I think you've answered your own question. It's not impossible to play finger technique slowly. The point of practicing slow is not only to nail the time, but to overcome the difficulties of playing slow. Usually the problem with playing slow is learning to keep it together with all that extra time between stroke. It's when you get that together, the nuances of playing faster come with less difficulties. In your case, the problem is with keeping the fingers together while playing slow. What's cool about playing slow with the finger technique is that you can throw those quick one handed strokes into what your playing. You can't do that when you're already playing at top speeds.

[joeysnare]

in johnny rabb's 30 days to faster hands he suggests doing wind sprints of sorts, for example set your meternome at 250 and alternate between quarter notes, eighth notes and sixteenths gradually building up the amount of sixteenths, i can say it worked for me, and hour a day and i went from 220 bpm to 240 bpm in about a month and a half using finger technique.

[Dave_Major]

Can i just ask. You say you are doing 4 per beat. Are you playing 16ths at 240 on one hand?

I.e when you do the 3rd part of Jojos exercise you are playing 32nds at 240!!! so doing 1920 beats per minute!!!!! (think my maths is solid)

Then my friend you are the fastest drummer in the world!

Dave

[Naigewron]

Can i just ask. You say you are doing 4 per beat. Are you playing 16ths at 240 on one hand?

I.e when you do the 3rd part of Jojos exercise you are playing 32nds at 240!!! so doing 1920 beats per minute!!!!! (think my maths is solid)

Then my friend you are the fastest drummer in the world!

Dave

I don't think that's what he means. As I understood him, he can now play 16th notes as 240 BPM, but he's practiced one hand at a time to get there.

[Dave_Major]

I thought so mate.
He did say he was doing the Jojo exercise which involves 100 lots of 4 16ths on each hand and then change to left. Then you do them interlaced.
I was just really being a pedant.

t-1000. You could try the valving technique. Remember jojo says (when discussing the push pull thing you have been trying to get) that there comes a point when you have reached the threshold of speed. At that point in order to go faster you have to condense the motion and use even smaller muscles.
I realise you can't use smaller muscles than your fingers but using them alternating on each hand could be one way to get past 240.

Dave

[Mighty_Joker]

I know lots of people will say "SLOW IT RIGHT DOWN, and play for several hours continuously at this slow speed" (and Jojo himself recommends doing this to supplement the 'speed training') BUT - very importantly - for finger technique it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE to slow the motion down. It's not that it requires a lot of concentration - it's impossible.

True finger motion where you're 'dribbling' the stick with the back 3 fingers only kicks in at about 160bpm - slower than that and what you're doing is dropping the stick and then CATCHING it again, not dribbling it continuously. Therefore, this motion is completely different from true finger technique.




It's absolutely not impossible. It just requires a lot of patience and a lot of control. The reason you have to slow it right down is precisely because it's so hard, but it increases your control over your fingers, and control is exactly what you need to play fast. Play at 130-140 using only your fingers. When you can do that, try 240 again.

[JPW]

But why only fingers? And why only straight singles? =´(

[jonescrusher]

If you're already up to 240 then slow practice at this point shouldn't be the issue - just keep doing what you've been doing to get to where you are already.

[dairyairman]

i don't understand the extreme desire to break the 240 bpm barrier. that's already pretty darn fast. why kill yourself to go even faster than that when there are so many other things to work on?

[JPW]

i don't understand the extreme desire to break the 240 bpm barrier. that's already pretty darn fast. why kill yourself to go even faster than that when there are so many other things to work on?

And actually that 240 bpm isn't going anywhere, you have gained it. Now work on flams and accents and ruffs and stuff like that and I'm fairly certain that it will be more efficient practice than contiunuing with the single strokes at this point.

I did the same, watched Jojo's DVD practiced singles with fingers until I hit the wall somewhere between 230 and 240. Then I bought Famularo's book, Stick Control and Accents & Rebounds and started using wrists. I can't believe how much expressive, relaxed and faster I have gotten. Well I'm still not in the 240 zone with my wrists of course but I have kept diary of my development and it's faster and more linear than what it was with the fingers.

[Dave_Major]

JPW

I too have done the same as you. The famularo G.L Stone combo. Its amazing what this combo has done for me.

I haven't specifically worked on speed ever but following this thread i tested my self. I tried 240 (or 32nds @ 120) with wrists and I could do it. I actually could just do 130.
Now this is in short bursts but still it proves that my hands can actually move this fast.
It's just endurance that i lack.

I'm with you on the working on flam, ruff etc idea. I just feel that the OP is kind of looking for a magic formula or a quick fix when there isn't one.

Dave

[JPW]

JPW

I too have done the same as you. The famularo G.L Stone combo. Its amazing what this combo has done for me.

I haven't specifically worked on speed ever but following this thread i tested my self. I tried 240 (or 32nds @ 120) with wrists and I could do it. I actually could just do 130.
Now this is in short bursts but still it proves that my hands can actually move this fast.
It's just endurance that i lack.

I'm with you on the working on flam, ruff etc idea. I just feel that the OP is kind of looking for a magic formula or a quick fix when there isn't one.

Dave

Yeah, I can do 210 16ths quite some time with purely wrists. 230-240 short bursts. And this is only 2-3 months of Famularo-Stone-route. And while speed is nice I'm more impressed about the amount of dynamics and control I have gained.

[T-1000]

Wow, 240bpm with the wrists for extended time periods is an achievement indeed!!

By the way, is it possible to do a fast single stroke roll with accents using purely finger technique? I practice at one dynamic level (loud as possible for blast-beat practice) so I wouldn't know?

And also, would playing with finger technique also indirectly help in some way with other techniques such as push/pull / moeller / general wrist technique?

Since I get told to 'go back to 20bpm and build it up from there' quite a lot when asking about how to progress with speed, I was talking about it being impossible to play at speeds like 20bpm using finger technique without catching the stick with your fingers while waiting for the next stroke to be played. Try it if you don't believe me. Of course it is possible (but not practical) to play at 130bpm with finger technique.

And for those asking me to get into other stuff instead of speed - I'm afraid that speed and great technique are my only goals with drums at the moment - but, hey, you never know, I might become mature enough to realize that there's more to drumming one day.

[dairyairman]

And for those asking me to get into other stuff instead of speed - I'm afraid that speed and great technique are my only goals with drums at the moment - but, hey, you never know, I might become mature enough to realize that there's more to drumming one day.


i can't argue that speed and good technique aren't a worthy goals. just don't forget about things like timing, groove, independence, rudiments, dynamics, musicality, rhythmic vocabulary, improvisational skills, ability to play different styles, sight reading, and on, and on, and on.

[SickRick]

Since JoJo gets mentioned in this thread so often, I'll just throw in my 2 cents:

In all the videos that I have transcribed from JoJo he never plays one note faster than 16th notes at around 210 bpm. The speed we are talking about here in this thread is certainly very impressive, but in my eyes not really relevant for 99% of all musical applications.

Certainly it's nice to have some headroom (and I'm sure JoJo has plenty of it) to go faster, especially for things such as blasting or very very fast Jazzride playing...

But really: If you have a big vocabulary that you can pull off at speeds around 200-210 it's a gazillion times more practical than being able to play singles at 280 bpm without ever thinking about dynamics, accents, rhythms, flams or all the other rudiments.... (and all these things have way more to do with great technique than just plain speed has).

Just my 2 cents though.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I just feel that the OP is kind of looking for a magic formula or a quick fix when there isn't one.

Dave

After 4 or 5 threads now on what is basically the same topic - 'How do I magically get faster?' - I have to agree!! All sound advice offered across several threads seems to be totally ignored in a quest for 300bpm to miraculously appear overnight.

[T-1000]

After 4 or 5 threads now on what is basically the same topic - 'How do I magically get faster?' - I have to agree!! All sound advice offered across several threads seems to be totally ignored in a quest for 300bpm to miraculously appear overnight.

Well, no - I'm not looking for a 'quick fix' solution. I know that building good technique takes 50 years minimum, so I'm in this for he long haul.

I'm just paranoid that I'm not practicing 'perfectly' - you know with all this talk of only 'perfect practice' improving you as a player it can be hard to know what practice is perfect and what practice is a waste of time.

And I still want to know - can you do accented single stroke rolls (like you can with moeller) using pure finger technique?

[Tim Waterson]

Speed comes with control Jo Jo ir right go slow and build up.
Art Verdi had me doing the toughest finger control exercises to develope control try play at your SLOWEST tempo with just fingers.Below 100 1/4 notes than go slower till its almost i note stop,, 2nd note stop... with just the fingers.slow is what developes control
really hard to do when you slow the tempo down
The more control you have with your fingers SLOW the easier is to go fast
Tim

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I'm just paranoid that I'm not practicing 'perfectly' - you know with all this talk of only 'perfect practice' improving you as a player it can be hard to know what practice is perfect and what practice is a waste of time.


I get your point, but I really believe (and so do a host of others it would appear) that in order to 'practice perfectly' you have to also incorporate this........

just don't forget about things like timing, groove, independence, rudiments, dynamics, musicality, rhythmic vocabulary, improvisational skills, ability to play different styles, sight reading, and on, and on, and on.

.....and to be honest, after following all your threads on the topic, I just don't see you showing a willingness to even try any of it.

It just seems to me that you post a thread, get a lot of valuable advice that will help you in the long run, but you ignore it all because no-one can give you the formula to magically start playing super fast singles overnight.......then we get yet another thread, and the same good advice is offered, yet it's ignored again........and the cycle goes on.....

You mentioned ealier, "And for those asking me to get into other stuff instead of speed - I'm afraid that speed and great technique are my only goals with drums at the moment - but, hey, you never know, I might become mature enough to realize that there's more to drumming one day"

Mate you don't need to mature as a drummer, you just need to mature your application and approach. Read back over the several threads you've already started, actually start to absorb and apply the advice given and I'll wager my pay packet that you'll be so much closer to your goal of blistering single strokes. They ain't gonna just drop from the sky for you though, you have to work and work hard.

But please, no more threads on this until you've actually started to heed some of the info you've already been given. It just seems pointless to me, for everyone to continually provide you with great advice only for you to ignore it and start another thread 'cos no one can give you the quick fix........there isn't one and the answers aren't going to change mate.

That said, I do admire your persistance and dedication....just apply it to the practice pad or drum kit and you'll be well on your way. I also think a teacher will help you immensely and would encourage you to get lessons. All the very best to you T.