Jazz drummers - having to lose the beat?

[Davo-London]

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

[Pollyanna]

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

Because they can :)

Seriously, it depends on the drummer. Jazz drummers are a diverse group with different approaches.

What were the qualities of this drummer that prompted BM to choose him over others? BM might have been looking more for flow and counterpoint than clarity.

[Davo-London]

Brad has such a wonderful touch, so delicate, so powerful, so melodic that it is truly beyond my imagination why he would choose such a fussy and annoying drummer.

Davo

[Deltadrummer]

Well, I love Jeff Ballard, so I may not be the guy to ask. But I would suggest that the problem may not lie with the drummer.:)

[Pollyanna]

I just looked up the group and found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w

The drummer seems to be responding well to the music around him to my ear and I like his sound so I'm guessing your irritation with him is a matter of taste.

[dairyairman]

i watched polly's video, and a couple others as well, and i have to say i was blown away! i loved jeff ballard's playing! he is busy for sure, but i thought what he was doing complimented what the others were playing very well. it was fun to see how far "out there" they'd all get, building tension with crazy syncopations and polyrhythms, and then all fall back in line at the end of the solos. brilliant!

i loved the super dry sound of his cymbals too! what are those? k customs? they sound amazing!

[jazzgregg]

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

Did you prefer Jorge Rossy?

GB

[bobdadruma]

There is a name for Jazz drummers that don't "Obscure The Beat"
They are called Rock Drummers!
I do understand what you mean. Sometimes you wish that a Jazz drummer would back it down and pocket it up just a bit during a performance!

[FunkyJazzer]

I am jealous that you got to see Jeff Ballard play with that trio, he is such an incredible drummer. All that displacement and modulation you talk of takes a lot of skill, and Jeff uses it musically and with extreme skill. If you don't like it then you're listening to the wrong type of music.

[mrchattr]

Just because you don't get a style of drumming doesn't mean it's bad, "wrong", or anything else. I personally think it's a crime when you see a jazz band, and the drummer is not well versed in jazz, and does a lot of straight "spang spang-a-lang" ride stuff and quarters on the bass. Sometimes, you even see snare on 2 and 4 on every song, like a rock drummer just pretending to play jazz. Now THAT'S where the crime is.

[mrmike]

I myself love Jeff Ballards playing from the recordings of him that I own. Could be the sound of the room, where you were sitting or possibly he was not at his best for some reason. Sometimes improv that takes a lot of chances will just miss. Hard to believe that JB at his worst would be less than impressive though.

[Deltadrummer]

There is a place just south of Biloxi Mississippi where all of the lost beats from jazz drummers are stored.

I really hate it when jazz drummers play downbeats but there's nothing wrongs with that. I used to hate it more. I saw Peter Ersdkine last night and at one spot he was playing on the two and it just irked me. I guess I'm the other extreme. I know where the two and four are. Don't need to hear it.

There is name for those guys that play back beasts. They call them smooth jazz drummers. Big Band drummers play the two and four a lot as well. But even Irv Cottler will imply three over the four. In jazz, you not only have syncopation but implied time where you can imply a different sense of meter or even just imply a rhythm or the back beat rather than play it straight out, or imply a melody, head or phrase.

I am jealous that you got to see Jeff Ballard play with that trio, he is such an incredible drummer. All that displacement and modulation you talk of takes a lot of skill, and Jeff uses it musically and with extreme skill. If you don't like it then you're listening to the wrong type of music.

He's going to find he loves it.:)

[mrmike]

There is a place just south of Biloxi Mississippi where all of the lost beats from jazz drummers are stored.

I really hate it when jazz drummers play downbeats but there's nothing wrongs with that. I used to hate it more. I saw Peter Ersdkine last night and at one spot he was playing on the two and it just irked me. I guess I'm the other extreme. I know where the two and four are. Don't need to hear it.

There is name for those guys that play back beasts. They call them smooth jazz drummers. Big Band drummers play the two and four a lot as well. But even Irv Cottler will imply three over the four. In jazz, you not only have syncopation but implied time where you can imply a different sense of meter or even just imply a rhythm or the back beat rather than play it straight out, or imply a melody, head or phrase.



He's going to find he loves it.:)

Ramsey Lewis had an interesting take on different types of jazz. There is jazz for jazz fans and there is jazz that anyone can enjoy. He tried to appeal to the latter.

[denisri]

Hi
I checked this video out..This guy is a world class drummer!!!!!!!!!!!! Amazing,great touch! I would say it just not your taste or style. Denis

[Steamer]

I'd say its safe to say that whoever was playing with Brad {probably Jeff since they're currently on tour} that problem lies not with the player but the listenser in this case. Jeff''s one of most musical and advanced in modern concepts on the kit players in acoustic jazz on the planet players at the moment.

So many people have big misunderstandings and misconceptions with the drummers role in modern jazz settings and in particular CONCEPTUALLY speaking in understanding the role and approach of the drummer in relation to the greater music taking place on the spot. Many new to hearing this type of concept at first don't get it and slam the drummer for what he's doing rather than stepping back for a second to see if it the listener who needs to spend a bit more time to be in "tune" with the process at hand.

Groove, swing, time, implied time, active/pro-active, over the bar line phrasing, call and response, tension and release, metric modulation etc.. etc.. can all be going on from contributions from EVERYONE in the group in a improv based setting either in modern tune based or free jazz settings not just the drummer on more deeper subtle levels which at first may seem like random chaos to the untrained ear. Certainly the drummer is the one in most cases who gets the blamed first for this when things don't appear to be simply laid out to understand in a more straight forward manner within the jazz ensemble music for the listener. The drummer doesn't have to hammer out the basic time/groove for everyone to play over in more evolved styles of modern jazz music and the related drummers role in that since the greater dialoque of time, feel and groove is being created by everyone listening to each other to achieve a more layered ensemble concept in many cases to create the sound of one idea and focus for the music as a whole. The drummer and others in the ensemble can being grooving like crazy but not laid in a way that seems obvious at first but it is none the less in most cases based on the conceptual approach developed to playing the music.


Take a deeper listen..............

[dairyairman]

There is name for those guys that play back beasts. They call them smooth jazz drummers.

oh boy! that's one style of music i really hate! god help me if i ever get stuck playing that.

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

In response to Ken's post.

At the moment I'm playing in a semi-big-band situation (eg. no brass, but lots of Saxophones) and in that situation you HAVE to play the two and the four, especially as it's an amateur ensembles. Otherwise, the band (who are concentrating a little too hard on reading the music) lose the conductor's downbeat! Otherwise, I largely agree with most of your sentiment regarding the 'obvious' of phrasing.

[jeffwj]

I think the question is - do musicians play the way they do because it is "not cool" to play traditionally? I saw a certain jazz artist the other week. The entire time there was no swing - not really fusion, but no swing. The form was not recognizable and there was a harmonizer on the horn, making it sound pretty weird. Now the players were great, but the music was a bit out there. I looked around and it seemed like the audience was pretending to get it - maybe thinking that they were not real jazz fans if they didn't understand it.

It leads me to something that Wynton Marsalis talked about in his book. He said that after Charlie Parker came along, it became uncool to play in the former fashion. Piano players no longer played stride piano. Players stopped doing the "counterpoitnt" or dixieland style of multiple horns playing together. Were musicians afraid of honoring a tradition? And did they get so caught up in playing like Charlie Parker that they didn't really understand where Parker came from? Wynton's point - should we start at Charlie Parker since that's all people were playing? Of course not - start at the beginning so you can understand the progression.

Also - many jazz musicians think that they need to like all jazz to be considered a real jazzer. If you like rock music, but don't like a certain rock band, you are no less of a rock fan/musician, right? So it is OK to not like a certain jazz artist or subgenre of jazz.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

I think that's really important Jeff. How do you play in the style and what are the elements and conventions of the style? I was listening a while back to a lot of Buddy for this very reason, to see how much and when he uses the back beat.

Here's Buddy using a "Mersey beat," so this was 'around' even before rock n roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFloJkNa-Rc

When new things come along, you don't have to like them; but it is best to try to understand them.

Just to show that Jeff can play a back beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w

[Steamer]

Just to show that Jeff can play a back beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w

It's ALL about approaching ANYTHING within the given individual framework of context, concept and the related content.... remove one or more of this important elements from the listening/playing mix then its a open crapshoot for understanding the true INTENT behind the playing per individual situations especially in a music with a more evolved/implied approach to a group dialoque/interactions at times in play like modern jazz music and group playing.

When I first heard Elvin with Trane when I was 17 I clearly "didn't get it" and let ALL my musical peers within earshot know that in a very NEGATIVE way. A year later when I was 18 thanks to a older musical mentor jazz musician who crossed my path I did "get it" and some bigtime and I sure sure felt like a complete idiot for my firm opinions on his drumming and the jazz music in general I was telling everyone about before developing a better appreciation and ear for conceptually approaching the elements of enjoying the same very drumming and music in question in a much more POSITIVE manner.

Keep it real and honest is the goal of the players making the music.... nothing more they can do on their end. The listeners at first exposure to something new need to spend more time to come to a better grip of a understanding of it which can develope a far better enjoyment of what is presented which a first impression maybe not be correct for what is really going down like in my own experience I just made reference to.

[jazzgregg]

I think the question is - do musicians play the way they do because it is "not cool" to play traditionally? I saw a certain jazz artist the other week. The entire time there was no swing - not really fusion, but no swing. The form was not recognizable and there was a harmonizer on the horn, making it sound pretty weird. Now the players were great, but the music was a bit out there. I looked around and it seemed like the audience was pretending to get it - maybe thinking that they were not real jazz fans if they didn't understand it.

It leads me to something that Wynton Marsalis talked about in his book. He said that after Charlie Parker came along, it became uncool to play in the former fashion. Piano players no longer played stride piano. Players stopped doing the "counterpoitnt" or dixieland style of multiple horns playing together. Were musicians afraid of honoring a tradition? And did they get so caught up in playing like Charlie Parker that they didn't really understand where Parker came from? Wynton's point - should we start at Charlie Parker since that's all people were playing? Of course not - start at the beginning so you can understand the progression.

Also - many jazz musicians think that they need to like all jazz to be considered a real jazzer. If you like rock music, but don't like a certain rock band, you are no less of a rock fan/musician, right? So it is OK to not like a certain jazz artist or subgenre of jazz.

Jeff

No, musicians evolved, so did the music, though not Wynton's music of course. Furthermore, he's wrong. People play both of things still, his statements are out of date (whenever they were made) and innacurate.

So Jeff, are you saying that you have never been to a concert of Traditional, walking bass solo, hi hat 2 and 4, straight ride beat, no real interaction, only back-up for the soloist type of concert where people weren't doing the exact same thing? Of course you have, because the people that would go 'just to be seen and pretend to know' couldn't tell the difference anyway.

As for the topic at hand, Stan said it best- it's not the music, it's the listener. If you don't like Italian food, don't go to an Italian restaurant and complain there's too many dishes with tomato. You went to a Brad Mehldau show.

GB

[Deltadrummer]

Don't tell Stan that because he does not like to talk about these things.:)

It's an interesting question just speaking of Bebop and those who may have studied the history of jazz. Where is the impetus for bebop? Does it come out of big band? or is in an evolution of the smaller ensembles like those of Louis Armstrong and Fletcher Henderson?

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I'm under the impression that is has more to do with the fact that after the Second World War, Big Bands were harder to fund. Hence smaller groups started gaining more ground and improvisation became more important. Feel free to correct me, but that seems as much of a reason as any for small-group playing.

[Steamer]

Don't tell Stan that because he does not like to talk about these things.:)

It's an interesting question just speaking of Bebop and those who may have studied the history of jazz. Where is the impetus for bebop? Does it come out of big band? or is in an evolution of the smaller ensembles like those of Louis Armstrong and Fletcher Henderson?


If your going to openly and negative diss anyone holding the drum chair with Brad better look first on the listener end first like you, Gregg and myself pointed out since whoever works with Brad has a clear understanding of his musical group concept that he has in mind or they wouldn't be on stage with him in the first place making music.......as you can see Ken i've got lots to say about that :}

The lineage came in part from the small ensembles from the latter two you mentioned Ken.

[keep it simple]

Ok, here comes the, wait for it, rock drummer (sorry for swearing on a jazz thread) with his opinion on a genre of music he clearly knows nothing about. I listened to the clip posted by Polly and I thought the drumming was superb. In fact, I liked the whole thing. Is this the same drummer that Davo refers to in his intro post? If so, I don't understand why Davo would find his playing such a grind. I found this players drumming complemented the other players well, especially during the rhythm guitar section. Even more remarkable, because my understanding of the genre is so poor, I found all the playing to be surprisingly accessible. Maybe Davo saw a different drummer.

Got to say this whilst on a jazzers thread though, you guys really put a lot of emphasis on theory, history, evolution, quantifying & justifying a certain style or interpretation. I just know that I like it or I don't. I'd much rather be just enjoying something I like rather than analyzing something I don't.

I await incoming wizdom missiles!

[bobdadruma]

I have been studying and playing jazz in my woodshed for about five years now.
This is the main thing that I've learned about it.
No matter what you play, Or how you play it, When playing jazz, You did something wrong in the eyes of someone!
And they just can't wait to tell you about it! Kinda like my wife!!!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I'm under the impression that is has more to do with the fact that after the Second World War, Big Bands were harder to fund. Hence smaller groups started gaining more ground and improvisation became more important. Feel free to correct me, but that seems as much of a reason as any for small-group playing.

I recommend the Dizzy biography "Groovin' High" for a lot of incredibly interesting info on this and 100 other topics as well. My sense of it after reading it is that Dizzy and Charlie and their followers wanted to explore the new theories and sounds they were creating, and a lot of the time, the big band leaders weren't going for that. They had to cater to a dancing audience, and that audience didn't expect bebop. Now, Dizzy went and formed his own big bands, of course, but actually left the "cutting edge" of things, perhaps for that very same reason.

Casper

[Davo-London]

I am jealous that you got to see Jeff Ballard play with that trio, he is such an incredible drummer. All that displacement and modulation you talk of takes a lot of skill, and Jeff uses it musically and with extreme skill. If you don't like it then you're listening to the wrong type of music.

Interesting view. How is it I love two parts of a trio, hate the third and I'm listening to the wrong music?

Davo

[Steamer]

Ok, here comes the, wait for it, rock drummer (sorry for swearing on a jazz thread) with his opinion on a genre of music he clearly knows nothing about. I listened to the clip posted by Polly and I thought the drumming was superb. In fact, I liked the whole thing. Is this the same drummer that Davo refers to in his intro post? If so, I don't understand why Davo would find his playing such a grind. I found this players drumming complemented the other players well, especially during the rhythm guitar section. Even more remarkable, because my understanding of the genre is so poor, I found all the playing to be surprisingly accessible. Maybe Davo saw a different drummer.

Got to say this whilst on a jazzers thread though, you guys really put a lot of emphasis on theory, history, evolution, quantifying & justifying a certain style or interpretation. I just know that I like it or I don't. I'd much rather be just enjoying something I like rather than analyzing something I don't.

I await incoming wizdom missiles!

Sounds like Jeff Ballard from the cymbal desciption alone KIS. He likes using 3 dry, dark, old funky cracked and ball chained old Turkish K's and old A's in his regular setup.

Here's the rub.........

Yes you can process the music in front of you trusting and using your own inuitive listening skills.... some come do that right away either listener or musician alike. When I play.......well I play and don't overly "think" or spend time analyzing the "whys" and "whats" every second of a performance. I'm sure Brad's trio approaches the music in the same organic and intuitive way based on their evolved jazz approach to trio playing.

Others coming from a very narrow viewpoint on what is "correct" drumming or what they believe to be required in their opinion from the drummer for the music based on a first impression which may require to dig deeper into the "inner details" conceptually to better process what is behind what is going on if the musicians appear to be happy and you're the only one out of the lope in the mix. That can only come from a more informed study of the details that can only be achieved in some cases over time and effort, exposure to more of this kind of group playing with a open mind without bias to begin with.

What one's opinion is NOW can be very DIFFERENT at a later time down the road when you gain more listening experience and wisdom and knowledge on any subject at hand. That's the bottom line of my little story I shared earlier which may apply in this case..... the personal taste factor exempt.

[Davo-London]

I have been studying and playing jazz in my woodshed for about five years now.
This is the main thing that I've learned about it.
No matter what you play, Or how you play it, When playing jazz, You did something wrong in the eyes of someone!
And they just can't wait to tell you about it! Kinda like my wife!!!

I realise I came over very ranty and others think he is a great drummer. On record to be sure he is kept on a much tighter beat. Wonderwall is a great track and he is fine on this ... but live. Guys you've gotta trust me - he was awful.

Davo

[Steamer]

Interesting view. How is it I love two parts of a trio, hate the third and I'm listening to the wrong music?

Davo


Did you read my post on the subject? Maybe your ears are out of the "lope" on #3 in the mix for the detailed reasons I laid out.

Worth keeping a open mind to find out........

[Steamer]

I realise I came over very ranty and others think he is a great drummer. On record to be sure he is kept on a much tighter beat. Wonderwall is a great track and he is fine on this ... but live. Guys you've gotta trust me - he was awful.

Davo


Was it Jeff Ballard?

I'll takes Jeff's "awful" live as a sensitive to the music ensemble player to just a select few other players very best efforts on the jazz drumming subject any day of the week..... LOL!!

[Davo-London]

I'd say its safe to say that whoever was playing with Brad {probably Jeff since they're currently on tour} that problem lies not with the player but the listenser in this case. Jeff''s one of most musical and advanced in modern concepts on the kit players in acoustic jazz on the planet players at the moment.

So many people have big misunderstandings and misconceptions with the drummers role in modern jazz settings and in particular CONCEPTUALLY speaking in understanding the role and approach of the drummer in relation to the greater music taking place on the spot. Many new to hearing this type of concept at first don't get it and slam the drummer for what he's doing rather than stepping back for a second to see if it the listener who needs to spend a bit more time to be in "tune" with the process at hand.

Groove, swing, time, implied time, active/pro-active, over the bar line phrasing, call and response, tension and release, metric modulation etc.. etc.. can all be going on from contributions from EVERYONE in the group in a improv based setting either in modern tune based or free jazz settings not just the drummer on more deeper subtle levels which at first may seem like random chaos to the untrained ear. Certainly the drummer is the one in most cases who gets the blamed first for this when things don't appear to be simply laid out to understand in a more straight forward manner within the jazz ensemble music for the listener. The drummer doesn't have to hammer out the basic time/groove for everyone to play over in more evolved styles of modern jazz music and the related drummers role in that since the greater dialoque of time, feel and groove is being created by everyone listening to each other to achieve a more layered ensemble concept in many cases to create the sound of one idea and focus for the music as a whole. The drummer and others in the ensemble can being grooving like crazy but not laid in a way that seems obvious at first but it is none the less in most cases based on the conceptual approach developed to playing the music.


Take a deeper listen..............

I was already familiar with Brad's work and I have been a jazz/rock/worship bassist for over 32 years. I'm also a very sensitive player and like to play appropriately to the music. That's my point I suppose. If the keys player was much more freeform in their style then the drumming would have been appropriate, but when a pianist is laying down some beautiful slow melody then you don't want all that look at me crap going on. The bassist was totally in line with Brad, the drummer just wasn't.

And just because it's clever and takes a lot of chops it doesn't mean it's right.

Davo

[Steamer]

I have been studying and playing jazz in my woodshed for about five years now.
This is the main thing that I've learned about it.
No matter what you play, Or how you play it, When playing jazz, You did something wrong in the eyes of someone!
And they just can't wait to tell you about it! Kinda like my wife!!!

Fair enough but look at the other side of the coin Bob. Is it fair to dump misinformed negative opinions around about a great long time dedicated seasoned pro jazz player like Jeff Ballard? I see this much to frequentlly usually with people who clearly aren't watching the same program sitting next to me on the couch. Get my point?

[Steamer]

I was already familiar with Brad's work and I have been a jazz/rock/worship bassist for over 32 years. I'm also a very sensitive player and like to play appropriately to the music. That's my point I suppose. If the keys player was much more freeform in their style then the drumming would have been appropriate, but when a pianist is laying down some beautiful slow melody then you don't want all that look at me crap going on. The bassist was totally in line with Brad, the drummer just wasn't.

And just because it's clever and takes a lot of chops it doesn't mean it's right.

Davo

Jeff's one of those rare people who has moved beyond chops and is all about playing music on the drums for the greater good of the musical mix as he hears it. Did Brad or the bass player look unhappy during the performance?

The problem is still clearly the conceptual based differences we share drum wise on the subject in my view so we won't agree on this with all due respect. Just because you don't dig his approach doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Deltadrummer]

Fair enough but look at the other side of the coin Bob. Is it fair to dump misinformed negative opinions around about a great long time dedicated seasoned pro jazz player like Jeff Ballard? I see this much to frequently usually with people who clearly aren't watching the same program sitting next to me on the couch. Get my point?

Yes,.

Oh I have to write more to post this. I can see why Stan gets frustrated with this need to mull over a subject when it had obviously come to a conclusion. The question is Are you really listening?

In life, no matter what you do and who you are, half of the people are going to love you and the other half are going to hate you. You just have to have the half loving you.

I like to run anyone through the mill and see what comes out the other side. You would need more in depth examples to really see what is going on and why some loathe it. For all intense and purposes, Jeff could have had a bad night. But getting back to the original question, is there a problem with jazz drummers trying to obscure the beat? Yes, because you can't dance to it.

I would add that in regards to the question about big bands, I think it is more appropriately phrased did bebop evolve against the big bands rather than out of smaller ensembles situations. After the war the role of jazz changed. The big bands were dance bands. When you don't have to worry about people dancing, it really frees up what you can do. And you had this to dance to.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xfuqg_louis-jordan-caldonia_music

But guys like Diz, Parker and Miles as well as Art Pepper, Thad Jones,etc. really liked the big band sound.

[bobdadruma]

Fair enough but look at the other side of the coin Bob. Is it fair to dump misinformed negative opinions around about a great long time dedicated seasoned pro jazz player like Jeff Ballard? I see this much to frequentlly usually with people who clearly aren't watching the same program sitting next to me on the couch. Get my point?
What I meant by that comment Stan is this. Any form of music that is so open to improvisation, as jazz is, Is going to receive more criticism, both positive and negative.
When this happens, that means that the jazz did its job. It kept up with what its name implies. The meaning of the word itself (or lack of definition, however one looks at it) explains it all.
I don't think that any two people could really be "watching the same show" when it comes to a jazz performance perspective. Everyone takes a different interpretation from it, and that's the way it should be. I don't know why this angers people so! I think that it is a good thing when the jazz moves some people to anger and some people to total happiness! The jazz was working correctly when this happens.

[jeffwj]

It seems like a lot of people are saying that if DavoLondon were to listen to that concert over and over (over the course of time), he would start to like the drumming. Well, maybe he would start to understand it more, but maybe he would never like it.

Not everyone likes Picasso's work. Other people like his paintings, but not his sculptures. I think that personal taste makes us who we are. My point with my previous post is that sometimes a musician will feel that there is something wrong with them if they don't like everything put before them. I think it helps to define someone's personality by what he/she likes or dislikes.

Jeff

[Steamer]

What I meant by that comment Stan is this. Any form of music that is so open to improvisation, as jazz is, Is going to receive more criticism, both positive and negative.
When this happens, that means that the jazz did its job. It kept up with what its name implies. The meaning of the word itself (or lack of definition, however one looks at it) explains it all.
I don't think that any two people could really be "watching the same show" when it comes to a jazz performance perspective. Everyone takes a different interpretation from it, and that's the way it should be. I don't know why this angers people so! I think that it is a good thing when the jazz moves some people to anger and some people to total happiness! The jazz was working correctly when this happens.

You still wonder why my friend? Take a close look at what i've been saying throughout this thread. Direct reference to Jeff's recent performance with Brad's trio per example:

"This should be made a criminal offence."


Enough said and rest my case............:{

[Steamer]

It seems like a lot of people are saying that if DavoLondon were to listen to that concert over and over (over the course of time), he would start to like the drumming. Well, maybe he would start to understand it more, but maybe he would never like it.

Not everyone likes Picasso's work. Other people like his paintings, but not his sculptures. I think that personal taste makes us who we are. My point with my previous post is that sometimes a musician will feel that there is something wrong with them if they don't like everything put before them. I think it helps to define someone's personality by what he/she likes or dislikes.

Jeff

A great musician I once studied with said it all boils down to RESPECT Jeff. He said if you don't like or understand something or something about someones playing in particular best keep it to yourself and not focus on the negative point of view. He also indicated that your words may come back to haunt you when proven that your opinion at the time was dead wrong to yourself and the others in earshot around you at the time. Wise words.....

[jeffwj]

A great musician I once studied with said it all boils down to RESPECT Jeff. He said if you don't like or understand something or something about someones playing in particular best keep it to yourself and not focus on the negative point of view. He also indicated that your words may come back to haunt you when proven that your opinion at the time was dead wrong to yourself and the others in earshot around you at the time. Wise words.....

Yes - I guess that is the point. Someone may not like Picasso's work, and it is alright to say that you don't prefer Picasso's style. But to put down someone's work is something different. Did Davo-London call Brad's drummer "awful"? Yes, he did. So I see your point too.

Jeff

[bobdadruma]

Im OK with the fact that Davo-London didn't like the performance. I myself, probably would have liked it.
If I saw the show with Davo, and afterwards he told me that he didn't like it, I wouldn't be angry with him. Davo's opinion is his own and he is entitled to it. I can live with it as I'm sure that
Jeff can. I loved the vids! Thanks Polly, I saved them as my favs!

[Pollyanna]

Very interesting discussion here about jazz drumming and its relationship to the one. Thanks for starting it, Dave.

Morning tea at work currently so I'll read more in detail tonight. First thoughts are, as Denis said, maybe the acoustics did the drummer no favours? Maybe it wasn't his night? It's all subjective.

Old jazzers like Gene explicitly played the one. I recently put a swing version of Summertime in the Your Playing section where I play two/four on the floor but I see it as blues/jazz drumming. It ain't even close to bop. Jazz is a varied beast. How explicit a drummer is when playing swinging music depends on the branch of jazz. Most jazz players, including Jeff B in the link I posted play backbeat in certain sections if their ear tells them to do that, just that they mix it up a lot.

I have heard players play very unadorned but with great swing and feel. As the standard says, it's not what you do but the way that you do it.

[Steamer]

Im OK with the fact that Davo-London didn't like the performance. I myself, probably would have liked it.
If I saw the show with Davo, and afterwards he told me that he didn't like it, I wouldn't be angry with him. Davo's opinion is his own and he is entitled to it.

It sure is and he entitled to it Bob no question.......... still boils down to the word RESPECT though for me and the chance that your opinion is wrong at first glance and may change down the road, maybe not.

Problem i've seen as both a longtime player and jazz educator is that the younger players coming up who don't want to look deeper at first into certain styles of jazz playing and conceptual methods of playing the music trust the opinions of others to many times to count and might miss the boat altogether on being swayed by certain opinions they read or hear without doing their own indepth homework on the subject firsthand. Many dangers lurk on the open jazz waters i've learned.....

[bobdadruma]

It sure is and he entitled to it Bob no question.......... still boils down to the word RESPECT though for me and the chance that your opinion is wrong at first glance and may change down the road, maybe not.

Problem i've seen as both a longtime player and jazz educator is that the younger players coming up who don't want to look deeper at first into certain styles of jazz playing and conceptual methods of playing the music trust the opinions of others to many times to count and might miss the boat altogether on being swayed by certain opinions they read or hear without doing their own indepth homework on the subject firsthand. Many dangers lurk on the open jazz waters i've learned.....Perhaps the original question should be addressed. Let's back up for a moment. Why do Jazz drummers "lose, bury" or obscure the beat? Let us try to answer that.
Why don't jazz drummers play the snare on 2 and 4 more often?
To my understanding it is for reasons of complimenting the music with the snare. The back beat is implied by the drummer. The back beat is also implied by the bass player and the other musicians. Being that the back beat is implied, Not emphasized! It is up to the listener to figure out where the back beat is. I'm sure that you can explain it better than I can Stan. To tell you the truth, I understand it, but I have trouble explaining it.
When I listen to a jazz piece I can find the beat. I feel the syncopation and I take to mind all of the collective sounds, of all of the parts of the music that are being played. It all fits together in my head.

[Steamer]

Perhaps the original question should be addressed. Let's back up for a moment. Why do Jazz drummers "lose, bury" or obscure the beat? Let us try to answer that.
Why don't jazz drummers play the snare on 2 and 4 more often?
To my understanding it is for reasons of complimenting the music with the snare. The back beat is implied by the drummer. The back beat is also implied by the bass player and the other musicians. Being that the back beat is implied, Not emphasized! It is up to the listener to figure out where the back beat is. I'm sure that you can explain it better than I can Stan. To tell you the truth, I understand it, but I have trouble explaining it.

Jack Dejohnette is the living master of it Bob. You "feel" but never "hear" it. The underying core swing feel is always in place if he's playing in a tune based jazz setting but he uses elements of the whole kit to imply it as ONE. Jack's hats as well as his whole jazz phrasing concept is all around the limbs playing the whole kit if he's playing in a swing based setting like I say to achieve the swing feel. You "feel" the 2+4 on the hat even though it's never once directly played during the tune. He always maintains the internal swing feel underneath no matter how implied or out it can get on top without any direct reference to once playing it straight up front. Big subject to cover, hope it makes sense.....

Jeff Ballard has this same "implied" abilities and skills under his belt which he uses in the right musical context for certain settings certainly with Brad's trio for sure.

[bobdadruma]

Jack Dejohnette is the living master of it Bob. You "feel" but never "hear" it. The underying core swing feel is always in place if he's playing in a tune based jazz setting but he uses elements of the whole kit to imply it as ONE. Jack's hats as well as his whole jazz phrasing concept is all around the limbs playing the whole kit if he's playing in a swing based setting like I say to achieve the swing feel. You "feel" the 2+4 on the hat even though it's never once directly played during the tune. He always maintains the internal swing feel underneath no matter how implied or out it can get on top without any direct reference to once playing it straight up front. Big subject to cover, hope it makes sense.....

Jeff Ballard has this same "implied" abilities and skills under his belt which he uses in the right musical context for certain settings certainly with Brad's trio for sure.OK, In my case you're preaching to the choir.
Let us explore some of Jack D's music. I have listened to him. I understood him.
A few months ago I sat down behind an acoustic guitar player and singer that I know at a private party. He was playing standard Rock tunes. I took out my brushes and I began to play syncopated rhythms to back him up. Afterwards he said to me. "Was that jazz that you were playing?" I replied, "Yes" He said, "That was the most amazing thing that I have ever experienced! I felt so much from what you were playing behind me!" He got it!

[Deltadrummer]

It's kind of a silly question because jazz is a syncopated music. So he's asking, why do jazz drummers play so syncopated". Well because they're jazz drummers. It has to do with the feel of the time, and remembering that jazz is a N"Orleans based music. Fundamentally, the feel is where the upbeat lands. It is felt in the syncopation. And from there, the are many things that guys do with.

But it has to go back to what Polly said in the outset, and others have intimated. . If I'm going to see Brad Mehldau, and I think he is quite a nuanced and subtle player, should I not take for granted that he knows how to choose a drummer who will compliment what he is doing?

Brad is a time sculptor like Tony Williams or Elvin Jones or Jack De Johnette. In jazz the time is not stagnant like in rock or funk to some extent. Nor is it teleological or directional. When you play on the two and the four, you drive the music; you rigidly define the time and you move if forward. The more you get away from rigidly defined metric principles, the freer the music becomes. Now if you don't like that, you can listen to The Rippington's or Joe Sample, or Fourplay. But you shouldn't be listening to free-small jazz ensembles and expecting that it conform to your own specific sense of time.

[bobdadruma]

It's kind of a silly question because jazz is a syncopated music. So he's asking, why do jazz drummers play so syncopated". Well because they're jazz drummers. It has to do with the feel of the time, and remembering that jazz is a N"Orleans based music. Fundamentally, the feel is where the upbeat lands. It is felt in the syncopation. And from there, the are many things that guys do with.

But it has to go back to what Polly said in the outset, and others have intimated. . If I'm going to see Brad Mehldau, and I think he is quite a nuanced and subtle player, should I not take for granted that he knows how to choose a drummer who will compliment what he is doing?

Brad is a time sculptor like Tony Williams or Elvin Jones or Jack De Johnette. In jazz the time is not stagnant like in rock or funk to some extent. Nor is it teleological or directional. When you play on the two and the four, you drive the music; you rigidly define the time and you move if forward. The more you get away from rigidly defined metric principles, the freer the music becomes. Now if you don't like that, you can listen to The Rippington's or Joe Sample, or Fourplay. But you shouldn't be listening to free-small jazz ensembles and expecting that it conform to your own specific sense of time.I agree, If you go back to my post #8 I was being sarcastic about the subject just, as Polly was.
By the way, I love the Rippingtons!

[Steamer]

OK, In my case you're preaching to the choir.
Let us explore some of Jack D's music. I have listened to him. I understood him.
A few months ago I sat down behind an acoustic guitar player and singer that I know at a private party. He was playing standard Rock tunes. I took out my brushes and I began to play syncopated rhythms to back him up. Afterwards he said to me. "Was that jazz that you were playing?" I replied "Yes" He said, "That was the most amazing thing that I have ever experienced! I felt so much from what you were playing behind me! He got it!

I was using the Jack approach as a example when things get pretty stretched and pulled around out of shape well the essential "core" feeling remains intact even though not played directly in the ensemble mix. Listen to the highly evolved approach to this he takes to interactive group playing in countless Keith Jarrett Trio recordings. Brad's trio in its own way is coming from that same plane of reference point conceptually speaking. Some people just don't get that concept Bob and the drummers place in it which goes back to Ken's point about listening more carefully to what is really going on within the music which at first may get totally missed.

Nice to hear of your recent fun experience :}

[donv]

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

I'm not familiar with who you saw, but I think I know what you're getting at. I've heard a lot of drummers, and not just jazz, that irk me because I don't think they play the song. They play what they can, because they can, but it doesn't do anything for the song. At it's worse it's some guy that thinks he's Roach playing some free form jazz to something along the lines of, Take the A train."

[Steamer]

I'm not familiar with who you saw, but I think I know what you're getting at. I've heard a lot of drummers, and not just jazz, that irk me because I don't think they play the song. They play what they can, because they can, but it doesn't do anything for the song. At it's worse it's some guy that thinks he's Roach playing some free form jazz to something along the lines of, Take the A train."

Jeff's not like that, neither is his approach to playing ensemble music. Looks another misguided poor excuse to me to fire the cannon at the wrong target when not required. It goes back to content, concept and intent which can vary greatly conceptually from one jazz situation to the next. One size does not fit all....

Like I say some peoople need to step back to take a deeper listen to what is happening in any given situation presented in front of them based on its conceptual intent without casting stones first.......

[donv]

Jeff's not like that, neither is his approach to playing ensemble music. Looks another misguided poor excuse to me to fire the cannon at the wrong target when not required. It goes back to content, context and intent which can vary greatly conceptually from one jazz situation to the next. One size does not fit all....

Like I say some peoople need to step back to take a deeper listen to what is happening in any given situation presented in front of them based on its conceptual intent without casting stones first.......

Wow, did you read what I wrote? I made a generalization about what I've heard some drummers do, and that I specifically wrote that I don't know anything about who he saw or what he heard. I also wrote that my generalization isn't limited to jazz. You're right, one size does not fit all, but you've applied it to what I wrote. But maybe you think every drummer plays the best drumming for every song, and have never heard anything but the best possible drumming. That's OK with me. I'm glad that's what you hear. I sure didn't mean to offend you, and I apologize.

[Pollyanna]

In jazz the time is not stagnant like in rock or funk to some extent. Nor is it teleological or directional.

Ken, I know what you're saying and while technically the word "stagnant" can validly apply to rock beats, its semantic is always negative - stale, foul, inactive, sluggish, dull (from a dictionary). I would prefer "relatively unchanging".

"Teleological" is a good word, though :) The dictionary it tells me that you're saying jazz drumming is improvisational rather than arranged. The musical goals are less specific. It may well involve backbeat, and backbeats are far from rare, just that good jazzers have a lot of other options to choose from.

In rock we (the royal "we") attempt to be correct, to gel with the band sound and infuse it with a spirit that's right for the song. Jazz is much the same, just that "correct" means "played with with swing and with the required level of responsiveness". Replace "swing" with "groove" for Latin and jazzrock.

My understanding is most jazz does has a guideline - often being theme, solos (mapped out to a varying degree), return to the theme with more gusto and the outro. There's just more room to do stuff in jazz than in rock (although if you happen to be King Crimson all bets are off).

[Steamer]

Wow, did you read what I wrote? I made a generalization about what I've heard some drummers do, and that I specifically wrote that I don't know anything about who he saw or what he heard. I also wrote that my generalization isn't limited to jazz. You're right, one size does not fit all, but you've applied it to what I wrote. But maybe you think every drummer plays the best drumming for every song, and have never heard anything but the best possible drumming. That's OK with me. I'm glad that's what you hear. I sure didn't mean to offend you, and I apologize.


I just wanted to stay focused on Jeff Ballard and his playing contributions with Brad's Trio only Don and some other related conceptual jazz music examples coming out of that same conceptual approach to playing music since that's what started the lengthy discussion we're having. That's the subject at hand.

I don't want to get off topic into other generalizations or personal jazz preferences since that will turn the thread into yet another complete jazz train wreck at this place like i've seen before....

Peace......

[donv]

Ken, I know what you're saying and while technically the word "stagnant" can validly apply to rock beats, its semantic is always negative - stale, foul, inactive, sluggish, dull (from a dictionary). I would prefer "relatively unchanging".

"Teleological" is a good word, though :) The dictionary it tells me that you're saying jazz drumming is improvisational rather than arranged. The musical goals are less specific. It may well involve backbeat, and backbeats are far from rare, just that good jazzers have a lot of other options to choose from.

In rock we (the royal "we") attempt to be correct, to gel with the band sound and infuse it with a spirit that's right for the song. Jazz is much the same, just that "correct" means "played with with swing and with the required level of responsiveness". Replace "swing" with "groove" for Latin and jazzrock.

My understanding is most jazz does has a guideline - often being theme, solos (mapped out to a varying degree), return to the theme with more gusto and the outro. There's just more room to do stuff in jazz than in rock (although if you happen to be King Crimson all bets are off).

It's also true that most rock is dance music which requires a beat for dancing. I don't think most post big band swing era jazz has any intent to be danceable which really opens up the format and structure for the musicians rather then the audiance.

[Deltadrummer]

Ken, I know what you're saying and while technically the word "stagnant" can validly apply to rock beats, its semantic is always negative - stale, foul, inactive, sluggish, dull (from a dictionary). I would prefer "relatively unchanging".

"Teleological" is a good word, though :) The dictionary it tells me that you're saying jazz drumming is improvisational rather than arranged. The musical goals are less specific. It may well involve backbeat, and backbeats are far from rare, just that good jazzers have a lot of other options to choose from.

In rock we (the royal "we") attempt to be correct, to gel with the band sound and infuse it with a spirit that's right for the song. Jazz is much the same, just that "correct" means "played with with swing and with the required level of responsiveness". Replace "swing" with "groove" for Latin and jazzrock.

My understanding is most jazz does has a guideline - often being theme, solos (mapped out to a varying degree), return to the theme with more gusto and the outro. There's just more room to do stuff in jazz than in rock (although if you happen to be King Crimson all bets are off).


For me, coming from a rock background, I like to stay away from rock cliches. But people always told me I was too much a jazz drummer to play rock. The more I play jazz, the more I understand guys like Paul Motian and where they are at.

Guys like Tony and Elvin could really groove as well. For me, Elvin defined groove. The Metheny example show Jeff Ballard can groove. Metheny expects that because his music is more fusion oriented.

Jazz has guidelines. One of the things we try to do with my ensemble is work so that the recap of the head is natural. Everybody feels it. The problem that I have is that guys need to understand that when you re-quote you need to hear where the drummer is. They like to come in on four or the upbeat of three when the head starts on two or the downbeat of one. Maybe that's my problem. Sometimes the recap is with more gusto but we also do things where we totally lose all sense of time, and the recap becomes fragmented and abstract. That's certainly going to happen if they don't enter the recap in rhythm.:)

Many of these boppers were strung out on heroin as well. I mean that changed their sense of time.

[aydee]

From Jeff's website:

Jeff Ballard grew up in Santa Cruz, California. He recalls when he was a child laying in bed listening to the music his father would play every weekend: Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald, Louie Armstrong, Sergio Mendez, Oscar Peterson, Milton Nascimento; how he loved the sound and the speed of Ed Thigpen’s brushes on the snare.

“I remember feeling the power of a Basie big band shout chorus which would then suddenly disappear into some quiet dancing riff. It was the swing in it, which excited me the most. I also remember how it felt traveling thru sounds of the jungle in a Milton Nascimento record. The drums, percussion, and voice, would sound as if they either came from the earth or were made of water. And I was so happy to hear the joy of Ella and Louie singing and playing together. I think that that early exposure has made me part of what I am today, especially in regards to my love for sound.”

In a community college he studied music theory and played in a big band as well as started working in small groups that played music for all kinds of occasions. He realized then that there are ways to play the drums, which are particular for each occasion. Each genre has requirements with needs to be met.
“A big band needs a propelling and simple drive, more supportive, for the ensemble to sit in. Brazilian drumming needs that driving bass drum with an insistent yet light dancing quality with the hands. Reggae asks for a sophisticated groove comparable to that of swing. Afro Cuban music I can compare to boxing: something like sparring with an opponent. I think the challenge is in the search for finding the music’s particular needs. The joy is in the discovery.” During this time, while living in and playing around San Francisco, he became absorbed with ‘modern’ jazz. “ Hearing Tony Williams play with Miles completely changed the way I played drums. Hearing John Coltrane and Elvin Jones, and listening to Ornette Coleman’s music changed my whole world. It was like coming home.”

At the age of twenty-five he began playing with Ray Charles. “ We toured 8 months straight every year with the band. Although we often played the same songs and arrangements every night, Ray was always able to make us feel as if it was for the very first time. The drum chair was the best seat in the house really. I only had to watch Ray’s feet to know where and what he wanted the groove to be. What a great school.”

After three years with Ray Charles, Jeff Ballard move to New York City where he found like-minded musicians who were drawing on tradition as well as searching for their own interpretation of playing and expression in music. “Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mark Turner, Brad Mehldau, Avishai Cohen, Guillermo Klein, Larry Grenadier, Ben Allison…and so many others. I started playing music which was of a more personal nature and which drew from an extremely wide palette of influence. I remember, for example, investigating Argentine rhythms and transposing them on to the drumset; or introducing middle-eastern rhythms to my drums. I guess you could say the approach here was in finding the sound equivalent on the drums to something from the original: the dry staccato sound of the dancer’s shoes on a hard wooden floor, the ornamental sounds of bells strapped to the wrists of the percussionists, and then synthesizing my own version of what I felt would fit musically into the drums. Then there were investigations in finding my own things with the drums. Playing and recording with all of these musicians have opened up the opportunity for me to explore my infatuation with sound. It is the sound, not the note per se, which touches me the most. ”Jeff Ballard has also played and toured with Eddie Harris, Bobby Hutcherson, Buddy Montgomery, Lou Donaldson, Mike Stern, and Danilo Perez. He joined Chick Corea in 1999 and continues to play in his various projects. “ I learned so much playing with him during those six years. I encountered thru him a high speed of thought in improvisation and a constant clarity of expression in the music. The chance to play in all kinds of different musical situations like with his sextet Origin or the New Trio or large symphonies brought a heightened awareness of touch to my playing as well. I very rarely used monitors on the gig. It was all about hearing the sound of the instruments themselves on stage.”

Currently Jeff Ballard is a member of the Brad Mehldau Trio, Joshua Redman’s Elastic Band, performs periodically with Corea, and is a co-leader of Fly, a collective trio with Mark Turner and Larry Grenadier. Fly is a sparse unit with a focused approach in which the lead voice often changes instruments, or simply vanishes into a three-way dialogue. “Interdependence is total. We all wanted to pare down and see what we could do sonically with this type of instrumentation. There is an extra harmonic and sonic space compared to other formations. Changing the traditional roles of our instruments is just one consequence of this. Also it allows us to explore our own compositions.” Their latest self entitled record, Fly, and ensuing concerts have won critical acclaim as best of the year 2004.

[Davo-London]

OK, where are we? Steamer is very eloquent in his defence of Ballard and I accept that my language was angry and probably came over as a jazz ignoramus. However, that may well be the case, but i am a big jazz fan and maybe my fusion tastes are put of my frustration at Ballard. If you are going to tell me that to change the feel at every bar or so, to play the ride bell for 2 bars to move to a roll for 3/4 of a bar and then to play a cuban reference on the floor tom and then play 2 bars hitting the rims of all the toms is an appropriate back drop to Brad then I'm lost, truly I am. One Jazz critic referred to Ballard's drumming as a broken style and that captures it for me.

Lets not forget, I am not talking about his youtube vids or his recordings with Brad, just sat nights performance in Roma. I walked out so upset by his drumming. If my above description of drumming is "me not getting it", then yes you are all right and I'm wrong.

Davo

[jeffwj]

Lets not forget, I am not talking about his youtube vids or his recordings with Brad, just sat nights performance in Roma. I walked out so upset by his drumming. If my above description of drumming is "me not getting it", then yes you are all right and I'm wrong.

Davo

I am not as familiar with Jeff Ballard's playing as I probably should be. From what I've heard, he really has a great swing with the ability to take the music in and out as in this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLQYwoPaTb4).

I know you did not want to bounce youtube clips back and forth, but if you might be able to find a clip of Ballard playing in the style that you mentioned, it might help to clarify your situation.

Jeff

[Steamer]

OK, where are we? Steamer is very eloquent in his defence of Ballard and I accept that my language was angry and probably came over as a jazz ignoramus. However, that may well be the case, but i am a big jazz fan and maybe my fusion tastes are put of my frustration at Ballard. If you are going to tell me that to change the feel at every bar or so, to play the ride bell for 2 bars to move to a roll for 3/4 of a bar and then to play a cuban reference on the floor tom and then play 2 bars hitting the rims of all the toms is an appropriate back drop to Brad then I'm lost, truly I am. One Jazz critic referred to Ballard's drumming as a broken style and that captures it for me.

Lets not forget, I am not talking about his youtube vids or his recordings with Brad, just sat nights performance in Roma. I walked out so upset by his drumming. If my above description of drumming is "me not getting it", then yes you are all right and I'm wrong.

Davo


Well Davo you're being perfectly honest and I very much respect that just as I am with my counter point of view on the subject. You just can't break the drummers contributions into bits in pieces is my advice seperate from what else is going down but listen to overall sound of the ensemble when presented with as you describe being a more "broken style" of drumming. The continuous flow in the music with that type of approach may be more subtle/deceptive than what it appears at first glance {listen} especially if the musicians playing the music feel connected even if you feel quite differently about that based on your own honest opinion and ears as you obviously do at that moment in time.

Could not be your bag which i'm totally cool with. Some of crazy jazz music as some individuals call it I play at times I don't honestly expect people to "get it" at first listen but I just put it out there into space with all honest intent letting the cards {critics} fall where they may. Some people like to hear things clearly laid out in a "straight ahead" {jazz} fashion and some like more counterpoint and contrast in the mix by the individual ensemble players creating the music as a whole. I like both since I do Bop, Post Bop and free {which isn't really free} and deal with my own listening and playing taste and situations on a case by case basis based on the concept{s} I see being presented to me a both a listener and player which can mean having a different set of parameters and focus to take care of such as in a tune based swing jazz piece or a total on the spot total improv group setting performance. Each has its own "rules of engagement" so to speak I need to conceptually fully understand for achieving any true musical success.Getting a greater understanding of the language spoken in each is a good foundation to work off.

No one is forcing you to dig it just from my experience chances are you may dig elements of it more as time goes on. Maybe... maybe not..... doesn't really matter in the bigger picture since we should all listen to {and play} music that makes us feel good inside sharing that same "vibe" with other like minded players.

[BassDriver]

The reason jazz drummers try to "obscure" the beat is it make it more felt than heard, usually when they are in a situation where they need to hold back, especially for the upright-bass to be heard a bit better.

...and you mentioned the bass drum being used like a snare drum but played quietly.

...another frequent example of such jazz drumming. The drummer was "feathering" the bass drum. One of my drum teacher's explained it as driving the note of the upright-bass, it "pushes" the note of the upright-bass to make it more felt and more heard.

This tradition comes from the old days of jazz (like the before the 50s) when the upright-bass wasn't amplified (with internal microphone or pickups)...

...all this complexity...for many jazz situations (usually for what you would listen to)...the drums are moderately minimalist but subtle in it's complexity; that's why the polyrhythms aren't like a smack in the face (eg. a Meshuggah song) but are instead like a gentle whisper played intricately on the ride cymbal(s), snare drum, and kick drum (like jazz should be done) and with brushes instead of sticks...

...and lastly about nylon brushes...

...I use nylon brushes and they sound fine (even on cheap PST 3s)...wire brushes are often preferred for the "classic" jazz snare drum sweep sound...but it could be that the drummers wire brushes wire bent out of hand and he had to turn to his practice brushes...or he is a bit tight on money...or I don't know...but for performance I would choose wire brushes.

[oops]

The reason jazz drummers try to "obscure" the beat is it make it more felt than heard, usually when they are in a situation where they need to hold back, especially for the upright-bass to be heard a bit better.

...and you mentioned the bass drum being used like a snare drum but played quietly.

...another frequent example of such jazz drumming. The drummer was "feathering" the bass drum. One of my drum teacher's explained it as driving the note of the upright-bass, it "pushes" the note of the upright-bass to make it more felt and more heard.

This tradition comes from the old days of jazz (like the before the 50s) when the upright-bass wasn't amplified (with internal microphone or pickups)...

...all this complexity...for many jazz situations (usually for what you would listen to)...the drums are moderately minimalist but subtle in it's complexity; that's why the polyrhythms aren't like a smack in the face (eg. a Meshuggah song) but are instead like a gentle whisper played intricately on the ride cymbal(s), snare drum, and kick drum (like jazz should be done) and with brushes instead of sticks...

...and lastly about nylon brushes...

...I use nylon brushes and they sound fine (even on cheap PST 3s)...wire brushes are often preferred for the "classic" jazz snare drum sweep sound...but it could be that the drummers wire brushes wire bent out of hand and he had to turn to his practice brushes...or he is a bit tight on money...or I don't know...but for performance I would choose wire brushes.

Apologies if this seems a little harsh, but your last paragraph is laughable.

Back to Davo-London: Not sure what you're comparing your experience of Brad Mehldau's trio to, maybe you have a particular album that you enjoyed and the performance was in a different vein. You say that you're coming from a 'fusion' background, and that probably affects your taste in drummers. It's ok to have opinions, but you came across a little strong, and you've apologized for that.

I believe this music comes from a background of 'spontaneous composition' if you will, where each player is striving to build the music from an emotional point of view. Jeff Ballard is a master of this style, and you might want to check out some of the other work he does to get a better understanding of where he's coming from.

Some of the work I particularly enjoy is Chick Corea's New Trio (check out the Past, Present, Futures album).

[Davo-London]

It is possible that the drums were louder than they should have been in the mix and so there wasn't a lot of "implied" going on as it was more upfront. My friend commented he didn't think the balance was right and maybe that's part of it.

I'm not dissing nylon brushes per se and I'm sure he could afford to play whatever sticks he wanted, but they didn't cut through in the normal way, having just said he was a bit louder than was necessary. Also, he never kept the brush in his right hand for more than a few bars before changing again to sticks or just using his hands.

Good point about the bass being really quiet unamplified and the drummer having to play accordingly. Those days are long long, but the trio could do dynamics no problem. They even faded out one track.

Should I get onto Ballard's solos whilst I'm on a roll? Nah, I'd better leave it as I'm not a fan generally of drum solos and so that would be unfair. At least he wasn't messing up anyone elses part during his solos and so I was thankful for that.

Good topic. I suppose you're all going to tell me, as Jazz Review magazine did, that Miles' "Jack Johnson" album is a 5* and one of the most important recordings of Miles' Career? I bought it following this review and assumed it would be an important part of my CD collection. I stopped my subscription to the magazine shortly after. Perhaps this is a clue to my tastes. I can go so far,then I think intellectual BS takes over, rather than listening pleasure. I am happy to be honest about my opinions. In the same way that we are all supposed to prefer pink lamb. Fine if you do, but please don't infer that I should like it or that I should feel inferior if I don't. I think you know where I'm coming from.

Thanks for sticking with this and all the contributions.

Davo

[Pollyanna]

Wow, if he can get plastic brushes to sound anything better that complete pootickets then I'm impressed! I can't stand them.

Davo, I'm probably preaching to the choir here but the difference between being in the right place in the mix or not can be night and day. Things that sound great in the mix can sound rotten on top of the mix. We all strive for the right blend at any given moment but we don't have much control of the front-of-house sound.

Maybe the mix wasn't ideal where you were sitting? Maybe the engineer was having trouble reading the room?

If you've seen the threads about Meg White it's clear that many musos demand a certain level of sophistication in our music. Yet many of us opt out once the sophistication meets a certain level. At that point we're looking for "juice" more than chops.

The point where we say "Enough!" to technicality and go for the juice is completely personal. Your theshhold seems to be at a different point to say, Steamer & Delta. I'm loathe to call things I don't fully understand "BS", though. Some music may seem overly fussy for my tastes but it hits the spot for others.

But when sophistication and juice meets - all bets are off :) I usually listen to non-technical music and I normally don't like drum solos but the below link that JimmyK put up here recently this is heaven on two sticks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFvgCtomkqE

[Davo-London]

But, but, if only one of you had been there to corroborate or counter my rant then this discourse would have a reference point. Are there any Romans in this forum that saw Brad on saturday night?

Davo

[rootheart]

Because they can :)
.
LOL..why do dogs lick their private parts?

[dairyairman]

But, but, if only one of you had been there to corroborate or counter my rant then this discourse would have a reference point. Are there any Romans in this forum that saw Brad on saturday night?

Davo

i've never seen brad play live. all i've seen are videos of him performing live. i found a video of him performing with his old drummer jorge rossy. it was interesting comparing jorge's style to jeff ballard's. jeff is more of an "in your face" drummer compared to jorge rossy. jeff's playing is very energetic and driving, and he's definitely not afraid to try things. jorge's drumming is gentler and more lyrical, although he's got some great ideas too. maybe you were expecting a drummer more like jorge?

[Davo-London]

Yes, that probably would have been better for me anyway.

Someone stated that Brad must know what he's doing and must have selected Ballard on purpose. I agree; and this is what I find so unfathomable!

Davo

[Garvin]

I have been studying and playing jazz in my woodshed for about five years now.
This is the main thing that I've learned about it.
No matter what you play, Or how you play it, When playing jazz, You did something wrong in the eyes of someone!
And they just can't wait to tell you about it! Kinda like my wife!!!

LOL!

A brilliantly distilled gem of a thought, which should be copied and pasted into every single jazz thread on this forum...

[Steamer]

Someone stated that Brad must know what he's doing and must have selected Ballard on purpose. I agree; and this is what I find so unfathomable!

Davo


Lets keep the insults and level of ignorance to a minimum and the hope for learning something new or the process of learning something period from all this to a maximum......

Looks like were right back to square one again..........I tried my best.

I'm done :{

[Deltadrummer]

Yes, that probably would have been better for me anyway.

Someone stated that Brad must know what he's doing and must have selected Ballard on purpose. I agree; and this is what I find so unfathomable!

Davo


The you tube clips are live clips, so I don't understand how you can say that the live performance is somehow different than live clips gleaned from you tube. I've seen Jeff live and really enjoyed it, as well.

Here's a clip since someone mentioned Chick Corea's New Trio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnjCBMl7ixw


So what is it you don't like about this playing?

Chick always picks great drummers, is one himself. Jeff's in the company of Roy Haynes, Jack De Johnette, Airto, Lenny White, Steve Gadd, Dave Weckl.

[Davo-London]

I've listened to a few youtube clips and Ballard is playing completely solid. Nearly all of the work on ride and snare and keeping a nice pattern/groove.

That's not what he did on saturday night. I know no-one believes me - I'm just saying he was a different persona.

Davo

[mrchattr]

I've listened to a few youtube clips and Ballard is playing completely solid. Nearly all of the work on ride and snare and keeping a nice pattern/groove.

That's not what he did on saturday night. I know no-one believes me - I'm just saying he was a different persona.

Davo

It's not that we don't believe you. It's that we know, and appreciate, the style that you are talking about. Your post here just proves it further...you want mostly ride/snare, "older style" jazz playing. There's nothing wrong with that. But go back to Ballard's bio on his site. He has studied and played a bunch of different styles of jazz, including the more free style that you saw him playing with, as well as the more conservative style that you appreciate.

I actually know what you mean. The first time I saw Jeff "Tain" Watts with Branford Marsalis, I totally didn't get it. I described it to my drum instructor at the time as follows: "It felt like I was listening to two concerts simultaneously. Branford and his band were playing great jazz, then Tain was playing a drum solo the entire time, ignoring the music." Because of that comment, my instructor started teaching me to understand and appreciate free jazz drumming. Now, I would love that show if I went with the knowledge and appreciation for that style I currently have.

[BassDriver]

Apologies if this seems a little harsh, but your last paragraph is laughable.

It's all right, I was expecting laughability.

...sorry about the offence (LOL), to you fellow Jazz freaks using nylon brushes must be a disgrace to beautiful music, but since I stay confined to my garage I never wanted brushes with wire that would bend if say I did, "brush-rim-shots" or attempted rimshots on toms, or crash-ride-riding or any other blasphemous thing.

Obscuring the beat in Jazz just sounds so cool, love doing it, really makes a groove swing.

[Davo-London]

I don't want ride/snare ... I want drumming that fits the music. Oh well never mind ...

[Deltadrummer]

I think one of the limitations of the internet is that in order to get people's hair to stand up you have to come in all piss and vinegar. So you say you know I think Neil Peart can't play jazz, and you get 742 responses pro and con, or in this case What's with this guy Jeff Ballard playing jazz, he's awful?

From an outsider's perspective, I would ask myself, who has a better grasp of knowing what fits the music, You, Davo or Brad Meldhau? It is going to keep coming back to that until you realize just from an outsiders, objective perspective, you are wrong. And it's okay to be wrong, and it's okay to have strong feelings about something and still be wrong. You may never learn to enjoy Jeff's playing; but as an intelligent person, wouldn't you have to agree with that logic, which goes back to Polly's first response to you question. Brad Meldhau knows what he is doing.

[Steamer]

I think one of the limitations of the internet is that in order to get people's hair to stand up you have to come in all piss and vinegar. So you say you know I think Neil Peart can't play jazz, and you get 742 responses pro and con, or in this case What's with this guy Jeff Ballard playing jazz, he's awful?

From an outsider's perspective, I would ask myself, who has a better grasp of knowing what fits the music, You, Davo or Brad Meldhau? It is going to keep coming back to that until you realize just from an outsiders, objective perspective, you are wrong. And it's okay to be wrong, and it's okay to have strong feelings about something and still be wrong. You may never learn to enjoy Jeff's playing; but as an intelligent person, wouldn't you have to agree with that logic, which goes back to Polly's first response to you question. Brad Meldhau knows what he is doing.


And so does Jeff and the bass player........

All boils like I said in several detailed post already Ken which you so well covered again. Someone here {Davo} is way outside of the conceptual lope of understanding of what went down and the key elements that go on in this type of expression of jazz playing, individual and group listening and interaction. To push it any further into a area of hopeful common reasoning and understanding for all involved will be like flogging a dead horse. He just doesn't get and most importantly has shown with his various continued negative responses that he has no interest after being offered some helpful insights on the subject in getting it being fixed {stuck} with his ears hearing it the way he wants {expects} to hear it even though that has nothing to do with the actual concept{s} of the music presentented to him whatsoever. Who's right or wrong...... the musicians playing together for years off their open trio concept with great international success?.... or the outsider listening to if for the first time?.... who's clearly saying something is wrong especially singling out the drummer in particular who's credentials and resume on the subject of playing this expression of group jazz music speak for themselves.

It's the same as before and my final word on this subject from my side of the jazz train tracks............

[Deltadrummer]

I have been having the experience a lot lately where I am listening but not listening to someone like John Coltrane, Miles or Buddy, and then suddenly I become engaged, because they are so engaging. It' kind of like being awakened. And at that moment, it is the music that engages me. Not because I ma listening to Coltrane or Miles. I kind of re-hear it from a deeper level by getting out of my own expectation of what I should or want to hear or believe I am hearing. We may never really hear the music as it is intended. But we can aspire to get as close to that moment as possible.

Well, now that you posted. I feel free to say to Davo, Stan said you still wouldn't get it.

[Steamer]

I have been having the experience a lot lately where I am listening but not listening to someone like John Coltrane, Miles or Buddy, and then suddenly I become engaged, because they are so engaging. It' kind of like being awakened. And at that moment, it is the music that engages me. Not because I ma listening to Coltrane or Miles. I kind of re-hear it from a deeper level by getting out of my own expectation of what I should or want to hear or believe I am hearing. We may never really hear the music as it is intended. But we can aspire to get as close to that moment as possible.

Well, now that you posted. I feel free to say to Davo, Stan said you still wouldn't get it.

Living with ears based on a "closed shop" approach will never offer any further deeper musical rewards life has taught me Ken..........

[Deltadrummer]

I think looking back, I may have had a similar experience with Jeff Ballard. I never disliked him. But it wasn't until listening to him in the car when I just plopped in a cd and then suddenly thought wow that's Jeff Ballard isn't it, he is really good.

I could imagine that it's often like that. Like your Elvin story. I remember when I first heard fusion, I hated it. Now I love it, and openly admit it. Never disliked Elvin; but I can't say the first time I heard Elvin or Blakey or Tony I thought "that's the ticket, man. I know exactly what they are doing and why. It's what I've been waiting for my whole life." I remember asking somebody, why did Coltrane pick Elvin for his drummer, and he said to me because he was Thad Jones brother. Now in retrospect, I can see just how wrong that statement was.

[Pollyanna]

In Davo's defence, taste plays huge part in all this. Quality does not necessarily equal enjoyment.

On the other hand, working against Davo is the fact that lack of enjoyment does not necessarily equal lack of quality.

[Steamer]

In Davo's defence, taste plays huge part in all this. Quality does not equal enjoyment.

On the other hand, working against Davo is the fact that lack of enjoyment does not necessarily equal lack of quality.

It goes much deeper than that for me Polly but includes that for sure. It goes into passing judgement on something quite negatively in this case being a well respected drummers contributions without at least admiting that you may not fully understand what's taking place conceptually speaking group wise {the music as a whole} in the first place. This the BIG issue as I see it I take a firm stand on since insight was offered and clearly rejected due to after the original stance negative opinion with the same negative jabs of the exact same tone seen in the thread to date. He wants to hear it HIS way not the way the music was presented by the musicians on stage. No win situation for the listener in this case.............

[Pollyanna]

Sure Stan. I'm not a jazzer so for me it's just a matter of what turns me on.

Thing is, Davo's claims to us are akin to being told that he saw a flying saucer or a ghost.. That would seem about as likely as a top player producing a real stinker (discounting intoxicants or severe illness).

Most of us would be thrilled to play as "badly" as guys like Ian Ballard on his worst days. If it happened to me I'd be handing in my notice to my boss the next day! :)

[Davo-London]

Well, you all suppose rather a lot. And state a lot of things on my behalf, which I don't recognise. Being a bassist and a drummer gives me a different insight, a different angle if you like. Obviously, Ballard was indeed not to my taste live, but on record he's fine. Happy to listen to Brad's CDs and I would never have commented. So how come I reacted so negatively to his live performance?

Davo

[Steamer]

Well, you all suppose rather a lot. And state a lot of things on my behalf, which I don't recognise. Being a bassist and a drummer gives me a different insight, a different angle if you like. Obviously, Ballard was indeed not to my taste live, but on record he's fine. Happy to listen to Brad's CDs and I would never have commented. So how come I reacted so negatively to his live performance?

Davo

Who knows.... that's for you to figure out not the musicians playing the music on stage in this situation in my opinion. Just because you play a few instruments doesn't automatically mean that you can walk the boardwalk to the intended target but still somehow achieve missing getting on the boat at the other end conceptually speaking.

I've done this a few times as told in a few stories early in my musical life when presented with something new I NEGATIVELY rejected at first.

At least THINK about it........

[fat in the middle]

I'd say its safe to say that whoever was playing with Brad {probably Jeff since they're currently on tour} that problem lies not with the player but the listenser in this case. Jeff''s one of most musical and advanced in modern concepts on the kit players in acoustic jazz on the planet players at the moment.

So many people have big misunderstandings and misconceptions with the drummers role in modern jazz settings and in particular CONCEPTUALLY speaking in understanding the role and approach of the drummer in relation to the greater music taking place on the spot. Many new to hearing this type of concept at first don't get it and slam the drummer for what he's doing rather than stepping back for a second to see if it the listener who needs to spend a bit more time to be in "tune" with the process at hand.

Groove, swing, time, implied time, active/pro-active, over the bar line phrasing, call and response, tension and release, metric modulation etc.. etc.. can all be going on from contributions from EVERYONE in the group in a improv based setting either in modern tune based or free jazz settings not just the drummer on more deeper subtle levels which at first may seem like random chaos to the untrained ear. Certainly the drummer is the one in most cases who gets the blamed first for this when things don't appear to be simply laid out to understand in a more straight forward manner within the jazz ensemble music for the listener. The drummer doesn't have to hammer out the basic time/groove for everyone to play over in more evolved styles of modern jazz music and the related drummers role in that since the greater dialoque of time, feel and groove is being created by everyone listening to each other to achieve a more layered ensemble concept in many cases to create the sound of one idea and focus for the music as a whole. The drummer and others in the ensemble can being grooving like crazy but not laid in a way that seems obvious at first but it is none the less in most cases based on the conceptual approach developed to playing the music.


Take a deeper listen..............

The only thing i could add is good art makes people react. The original post shows this.
If music was a Scrabble board, this style of drumming is an X or a Z [as opposed to an A =RnB drumming] there are only 2 letters in the game, but if you loose those little wood letters, the game is worthless.

[Steamer]

The only thing i could add is good art makes people react. The original post shows this.
If music was a Scrabble board, this style of drumming is an X or a Z [as opposed to an A =RnB drumming] there are only 2 letters in the game, but if you loose those little wood letters, the game is worthless.


Sure it all depends on what you are conditioned to listen to and expect based on your own parameters your ear will except at that point to be the norm. Those parameters can open up and change greatly over time given the chance is my point. In worst case scenario it's called closed bias listening by thought process which my first really great music teacher {listening appreciation/music theory} was when I was young trying to drill into me and out of me at the same time. " how many like smoked oysters?... put up you hands {a couple of hands raised}.... how many have actually tried or tasted smoked oysters {many and nearly hands in the room raised}. This was a key lesson how bias is developed and how it can be certainly applied to anything including music and listening taste and keeping a open mind.

Music can cover everything from A-Z in the scrabble game with no particular starting point or base word or combination of letters that is initially "correct" that covers the whole sum of words seen or can be used as vocabulary in the entire {musical} dictionary.

[fat in the middle]

well said, the scrabble analogy was to illustrate the importance of how just one letter is important in the whole alphabet. I think we are flipping each others pancakes on this one. Say hi to Commercial Drive for me!!

[Steamer]

well said, the scrabble analogy was to illustrate the importance of how just one letter is important in the whole alphabet. I think we are flipping each others pancakes on this one. Say hi to Commercial Drive for me!!

Exact same scrabble game {or pancake} fat in the middle........

Will do...........:}

[Deltadrummer]

There is an infamous recording of PDQ Bach with a Phil Rizzutto style play by play rendition of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. It used to be a big favorite in Music Appreciation classes and I've used it myself. The idea is to show the listener what it would have been like to listen to this symphony in 1808 when it was fresh. Beethoven was a master and playing with the audiences' expectations about theme and form. I would recommend getting it.

It's a matter of what you do with the fodder. I've taken some of the ideas discussed here as an opportunity to think about the playing. Putting those ideas into real time with my quartet yielded some very powerful dramatic results. Listening to Peter Erskine playing and putting some of that into play also worked very well. Even if you're critical of something or it rubs you the wrong way, you can still learn and grow if you open up.

But Davo, you don't listen, You seem to be asking the same question as though no one has answered it. That's tells us everything about where you are coming from.

[Pollyanna]

However, Ken, everything is possible. Great players can play awful. It's rare, but it happens. Alcohol, drugs, depression, episodic mental illness, other sicknesses. Some drummers are more or less consistent than others, whose range between their best and worst is greater.

These things are possibilities, but no high probabilities.

However, Davo, you also questioned things that are not subject to "on the night" variation - Jeff's choice of percussives. To quote, "He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box".

Who knows? Maybe Jeff walked backstage afterwards and said in disgust, "Damn, I hate the acoustics in this place! This room made my cymbals sound like trash cans!".

However, if he wasn't thinking that then the only conclusion we can come to is that Jeff Ballard and Brad M share an aesthetic that Davo-London does not share. What other conclusion can we come to??

As a number of us said right at the start - it's a matter of taste.

[Deltadrummer]

The difference here is that he didn't make a comment about a jazz drummer having a bad night; but equated a bad night to this problem jazz drummers have with playing syncopation. Stan is right on in saying this music didn't meet his expectations so it's the drummers fault. Somebody had a bad night, and I think I know who that somebody was. :)

[fat in the middle]

I feel it is important that musicians need to take risks. The occupation of a jazz drummer [or any genre] is just that; a risk taker. Perhaps if at this said concert, the drummer was initiating dynamic and rhythmic advances, and the band were not going with him, he may have stuck out as a rogue player. When put into situations where trust is in the air, the band can move as one. The bottom line is the listener here had an emotional reaction, so something was done right. If art imitates life, drumming can be a traffic jam, or a morning on a lake, or a woman giving birth, or a sleeping dog. I feel as a culture, we are conditioned to listen on a level that rarely dives into the beyond, drumming has its roots in shamanism, and in that function the listener, musician or not, will recognize those qualities if they are conceptually on the same page. That said, the drummer [musician] may tap into things that may not be understood at the time of playing, beyond technique, and discover an instinctual world previously unavailable. I guess what I am saying is when we are in the moment, we don't know what the hell we are doing, and it is there that listener has the choice to either go with it or not. The best musicians can abandon technique and tap into the beast.

[Davo-London]

Thanks Polly for a smidgen of support.

I'd never conciously thought about Jeff's playing prior to that night even though I have a Brad CD or two. Thus, I couldn't tell whether Jeff was having a bad night or not. It could be that concerts allow great exploration for musicians and Jeff chose to explore more than Brad and Larry (bass). That in hindsight seems to be what happened and maybe why I reacted so strongly. If Brad and Larry were playing comfortably within the structure of the songs and Jeff wasn't then I would have picked that up. This makes most sense to me at this point.

Davo

[Pollyanna]

Davo, what I don't get is why a fan of Brad M would ask "Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is"? I mean, you obviously like jazz drumming. As you said, it was overstatement but web forums are an unforgiving environment lol

Most of us have a threshhold of tolerance for just how "out there" a drummer plays so what you're asking is why SOME jazz drummers so assiduously avoid catchy obviousness. After all, pretty well all jazzers both explicitly state the pulse and also play around it during a performance. Some lean more towards the obvious and catchy, some more to the obscure and sophisticated.

I see obscure drumming as being akin to obscure melodies. When people play that way they take the spotlight from the musical "sugar" - obvious beats and melodies - and push the listerners' focus to the timbre, texture and expression. If a listener isn't on that wavelength, or not in the mood for it, then they will hear the playing as clutter and noise.

Personally, I'm not wildly keen on expressionism in music (or art, for that matter) without at least some "sugar" so I'm fussy about what I like.

Having said that, If the expressionism includes appealing timbres and textures then I love it to bits - that's my "sugar" ... and especially when there's a lot of playfulness and humour in it. I find that most people don't pick up on instrumental humour because they don't expect it, which I guess leads us to FITM's post.

I'm digressing, of course, but I suspect the regulars here would expect that from me :)

[Deltadrummer]

I feel it is important that musicians need to take risks. The occupation of a jazz drummer [or any genre] is just that; a risk taker. Perhaps if at this said concert, the drummer was initiating dynamic and rhythmic advances, and the band were not going with him, he may have stuck out as a rogue player. When put into situations where trust is in the air, the band can move as one. The bottom line is the listener here had an emotional reaction, so something was done right. If art imitates life, drumming can be a traffic jam, or a morning on a lake, or a woman giving birth, or a sleeping dog. I feel as a culture, we are conditioned to listen on a level that rarely dives into the beyond, drumming has its roots in shamanism, and in that function the listener, musician or not, will recognize those qualities if they are conceptually on the same page. That said, the drummer [musician] may tap into things that may not be understood at the time of playing, beyond technique, and discover an instinctual world previously unavailable. I guess what I am saying is when we are in the moment, we don't know what the hell we are doing, and it is there that listener has the choice to either go with it or not. The best musicians can abandon technique and tap into the beast.

I can appreciate that and maybe as well, someday ten years from now one of us will be in a clinic and Jeff will answer the question about his worst night as that one in mid-November, 2009, when he was really off and had to borrow someones crummy plastic rutes. Some nights are better than others and some nights the group is just on and some nights they are off. But I sincerely doubt that is what is happening here; and since we know that laying down highly syncopated patterns is a part of Jeff Ballard's style, and something that he borrows from none other than Tony Williams, we know that there is something going on here that is the "sugar" for people who love jazz. Something that is so subtle and nuanced that it would cause someone to ask the question, "why would someone do such a bizarre thing." Stan hears this all the time, and when people don't listen to the correct answer, he gets a little frustrated quickly. The question is do do you spend your time defending your own missed expectations, or answering that question and delving into the deeper level of what is going on so that the next time you hear the trio, you are able and willing to hear these new things.

But here we have a poster who is going to continually say, "oh, it was the drummer. He was off " while at the same time admitting that he knew little about the style of Jeff's playing when he saw the show, which would seem to disqualify him from being able to make that distinction. Such hubris is laughable, and if you're asking where Stan is, he's having a good one at this guy's expense.

Davo, did you stop to think that perhaps he was laying down a groove, time and feel that was so free that it allowed the bass and piano to flourish and shine in such a way that they actually seemed to outshine the guy who was responsible ?

[Steamer]

I can appreciate that and maybe as well, someday ten years from now one of us will be in a clinic and Jeff will answer the question about his worst night as that one in mid-November, 2009, when he was really off and had to borrow someones crummy plastic rutes. Some nights are better than others and some nights the group is just on and some nights they are off. But I sincerely doubt that is what is happening here; and since we know that laying down highly syncopated patterns is a part of Jeff Ballard's style, and something that he borrows from none other than Tony Williams, we know that there is something going on here that is the "sugar" for people who love jazz. Something that is so subtle and nuanced that it would cause someone to ask the question, "why would someone do such a bizarre thing." Stan hears this all the time, and when people don't listen to the correct answer, he gets a little frustrated quickly. The question is do do you spend your time defending your own missed expectations, or answering that question and delving into the deeper level of what is going on so that the next time you hear the trio, you are able and willing to hear these new things.

But here we have a poster who is going to continually say, "oh, it was the drummer. He was off " while at the same time admitting that he knew little about the style of Jeff's playing when he saw the show, which would seem to disqualify him from being able to make that distinction. Such hubris is laughable, and if you're asking where Stan is, he's having a good one at this guy's expense.

Davo, did you stop to think that perhaps he was laying down a groove, time and feel that was so free that it allowed the bass and piano to flourish and shine in such a way that they actually seemed to outshine the guy who was responsible ?

You have learned well wise grasshopper................................:}


Nothing more I can say Ken that hopefully only time and concentrated listening skills will uncover which appears from a recent post to of finally hit a small inroad of hope with some kind of starting point for someone at this point I hope I got right. Doesn't matter like I say anyways in the bigger picture because the problem not on the player{s} end but on the other end.

[aydee]

...
If there's no beat, cure it,
If there is one, obscure it,
If he had a bad night, ignore it,
If you didn't get it, dont endure it.
I'm a poet n' I didn't even know it.

...

[Steamer]

...
If there's no beat, cure it,
If there is one, obscure it,
If he had a bad night, ignore it,
If you didn't get it, dont endure it.
I'm a poet n' I didn't even know it.

...

New side of Abe I haven't seen :]

Like the title of a old tune suggest.................... LET IT BE......:}

[aydee]

..

No matter how bad a good drummer is on a bad night, it doesn't make him a really really good, bad drummer, just for that one night, right?

Good night.

( Sorry Stan, was really reaching to close that fill.. ; )


...

[Deltadrummer]

Here's one

there are four ears that you can use to listen:

the uninformed ear
the informed ear
the dis-informed ear
the reformed ear.

you can add that old Arabic saying.
a Fool listens to his uninformed ear.
a student listens to his informed ear.
a wise man listens to the dis-informed ear
a teacher listens to his reformed ear.

[PBW]

I just looked up the group and found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_SQqXXZE2w

The drummer seems to be responding well to the music around him to my ear and I like his sound so I'm guessing your irritation with him is a matter of taste.

Am I the only one to think the first part sounds like a Madonna tune?

[Deltadrummer]

No, but it's a Suzanne Vega tune. :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyxYL753w4

[con struct]

So here's what Davo said:

His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

And the so-called jazz drummers launch into the guy, emptying their silos. This guy's a fool, he doesn't know how to listen, his hubris is laughable, he doesn't like smoked oysters, he just doesn't get it, on and on with the insults. What a philistine he must be to not enjoy a jazz musician's work of one night! Even worse, he has the audacity to make a post about it!

Ah, but jazz is only for the informed special few. That's it! He doesn't know what he's talking about!

Really, you elitist jazz scamps are a riot when you get all worked up like that.

[Steamer]

So here's what Davo said:



And the so-called jazz drummers launch into the guy, emptying their silos. This guy's a fool, he doesn't know how to listen, his hubris is laughable, he doesn't like smoked oysters, he just doesn't get it, on and on with the insults. What a philistine he must be to not enjoy a jazz musician's work of one night! Even worse, he has the audacity to make a post about it!

Ah, but jazz is only for the informed special few. That's it! He doesn't know what he's talking about!

Really, you elitist jazz scamps are a riot when you get all worked up like that.

You left out this part in your slice and dice:

"This should be made a criminal offence."


If you want to live your life being a trouble making troll so be it.

Some of try to take these things serious for the pursuit of a sense of better understanding and knowledge for the sake of the music and the musicians as a goal for all involved.

Got anything Con-structive to add of value to this thread? Just asking since it doesn't seem apparent from this post that's for sure.... some here are trying to help offering some insight and advice and such, your are clearly not.

P.S. i'm not so-called i'm the real deal jazz wise as I covered in your insults before directed a me personally. Others can speak for themselves on where they stand on that comment. Like me to post more unseen jazz performance clips or my more detailed performance/recording resume over the last 35 years of pro experience on the subject? Think about it.......

[con struct]

Like me to post more unseen jazz performance clips or my more detailed performance/recording resume over the last 35 years of pro experience on the subject?

Actually, yes I would. Are the clips all going to be from a church or a community center?

[Steamer]

Actually, yes I would. Are the clips all going to be from a church or a community center?

Would you like the one from the Montreal Jazz Festival?

I'm done with you........

An intelligent person knows when to stop conversing with a flaming troll......

[con struct]

Would you like the one from the Montreal Jazz Festival?


Yes, please, I would like very much to see that one. And I'm sure I speak for a number of other drummers here.

[Steamer]

Yes, please, I would like very much to see that one. And I'm sure I speak for a number of other drummers here.

Contact Bravo TV to buy a DVD copy........ Just ask for the Bill Clark Sextet performance from their archive live concert productions. Was shown on jazz feature TV stations for years on regular rotation basis but you have to purchase a copy to see it now.

One hour of intense original award winning Canadian jazz.... anything else......?

[Deltadrummer]

Would you like the one from the Montreal Jazz Festival?

I'm done with you........

An intelligent person knows when to stop conversing with a flaming troll......

This guy's an idiot Stan, Don't bother.

[Steamer]

This guy's an idiot Stan, Don't bother.

In COMPLETE agreement on that Ken......

If I talk nice to a local producer I might be able to get a copy of the Kenny Wheeler Quintet concert I did for him. Wonder if he's heard of Kenny Wheeler?.............:}

[con struct]

This guy's an idiot Stan, Don't bother.

I'm an idiot because I take issue with the way Davo's been treated here?

Look here, in case you're not aware of this little detail I guess I'll have to be the one to break the news to you. Jazz is dying. Jazz CD sales amount to nothing by music business standards. Jazz clubs are closing all over the country, including New York City.

When someone, anyone, comes here or anywhere else to discuss the music the last thing jazz needs is for a few "jazz musicians" to berate him because he "doesn't get it." That's just not the way to encourage someone to further his interest in jazz.

Davo's post was taken as an attack on jazz music, and rather than use it as an opportunity to expound on the potantial positives it was used as a platform to denegrate people who maybe aren't as conversant in jazz as you "seasoned pros" claim to be.

Like any other kind of music jazz is for anyone and everyone. There's no secret club, no esoteric ritual that must be performed in order for someone to have an opinion on any jazz performance.

This guy, Davo, said he didn't like what the drummer did. So what? Why attack him personally, why call him a fool? If that's your idea of reaching out to the public then it's small wonder that jazz is going under.

[Pollyanna]

All of the comments in that latest flareup of music ideology wars are too black and white IMO

I really think you guys should look at what the other is saying, stripped of their ad hominem aspects. You are all experienced jazz drummers so there must be some common ground there.

I've found comments from both jazz insiders and outsiders to be interesting.

Personally I'd like to follow through on thoughts about the ideals and pitfalls of musical expressionism and the riskiness it entails in either producing musical gold or musical incoherence.

[Steamer]

I'm an idiot because I take issue with the way Davo's been treated here?

Look here, in case you're not aware of this little detail I guess I'll have to be the one to break the news to you. Jazz is dying. Jazz CD sales amount to nothing by music business standards. Jazz clubs are closing all over the country, including New York City.

When someone, anyone, comes here or anywhere else to discuss the music the last thing jazz needs is for a few "jazz musicians" to berate him because he "doesn't get it." That's just not the way to encourage someone to further his interest in jazz.

Davo's post was taken as an attack on jazz music, and rather than use it as an opportunity to expound on the positives it was used as a platform to denegrate people who maybe aren't as conversant in jazz as you "seasoned pros" claim to be.

Like any other kind of music jazz is for anyone and everyone. There's no secret club, no esoteric ritual that must be performed in order for someone to have an opinion on any jazz performance.

This guy, Davo, said he didn't like what the drummer did. So what? Why attack him personally, why call him a fool? If that's your idea of reaching out to the public then it's small wonder why jazz is going under.


Speaking of walking down the ramp and missing the boat........

Calling Jeff Ballard's drumming awful or even worse a crime and he can't see why he' on stage to begin with since he playing so bad is pretty harsh considering the player in question experience level as a seasoned ensemble player knowing the insides of this music to a tee. This is {was} worthy of a healthy debate for many other members for possible misunderstood conceptual and other reasons in the mix which we've tried to cover.

Again...... what do you have to offer in a intelligent way regarding those comments and point of view. You're having us go in circles like the whole meat of the discussion never took place. If you're going to join the surprise party at least bring a gift.....

[con struct]

Calling Jeff Ballard's drumming awful or even worse a crime and he can't see why he on stage since he playing so bad. This is {was} worthy of a healthy debate for many other members for possible misunderstood conceptual and other reasons in the mix.

Again...... what do you have to offer in a intelligent way regarding those comments and point of view. You're having us go in circles like the whole meat of the discussion never took place. If you're going to join the surprise party at least bring a gift.....

One guy's opinion, Steamer. Davo's original post was about how he didn't dig Jeff Ballard's playing on that one particular night, so what?

I don't consider what followed that post to be worthy of being called a healthy debate. The response on the part of the jazz drummers was "what right do you have to not like Jeff Ballard's drumming?" That's not a debate, it's an inquisition.

[Deltadrummer]

All of the comments in that latest flareup of music ideology wars are too black and white IMO

I really think you guys should look at what the other is saying, stripped of their ad hominem aspects. You are all experienced jazz drummers so there must be some common ground there.

I've found comments from both jazz insiders and outsiders to be interesting.

Personally I'd like to follow through on thoughts about the ideals and pitfalls of musical expressionism and the riskiness it entails in either producing musical gold or musical incoherence.

Polly, I think I gave this guy more than his fair shake to come around. But after a few days he's still berating the drummer. One cannot mold a rock.

As you stated, I also like these discussion, regardless of their own pitfalls because they do yield their own particular fruits. The train wrecks of live performance, we've all been there. I would agree with you that everybody can have an insight, regardless of their sophistication. But this guy is mistaken and was mistaken from the first post. Where is the caveat that says someone can just be mistaken ? And where is your own humility so you can admit it? :)

I've been put through the ringer and it's not fun. But there is one thing about being put through the ringer by someone like Stan. You're going to come out the other side knowing more.

I am sensitive to what you are saying. But Stan has been right on this one. It is the nature of on line discussion that the guy could have started out saying, I didn't enjoy Jeff Ballard's playing. What is it about his playing that I would find so disquieting? Often when we start a question, it is coming from a place of frustration. But it's up to the frustrated to get over it.

[Steamer]

One guy's opinion, Steamer. Davo's original post was about how he didn't dig Jeff Ballard's playing on that one particular night, so what?

I don't consider what followed that post to be worthy of being called a healthy debate. The response on the part of the jazz drummers was "what right do you have to not like Jeff Ballard's drumming?" That's not a debate, it's an inquisition.


This is how it started:

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

Later:

Brad has such a wonderful touch, so delicate, so powerful, so melodic that it is truly beyond my imagination why he would choose such a fussy and annoying drummer.

More:

Guys you've gotta trust me - he was awful.


Then this. The answer is yes:

Interesting view. How is it I love two parts of a trio, hate the third and I'm listening to the wrong music?

And:

Someone stated that Brad must know what he's doing and must have selected Ballard on purpose. I agree; and this is what I find so unfathomable!

And:

I don't want ride/snare ... I want drumming that fits the music. Oh well never mind ...


That's enough........ see a pattern? ............. Worthy of discussion?

[con struct]

This is how it started:

Why oh why do Jazz drummers feel obligated to spend an entire performance trying to obscure where the beat is?

I saw Brad Mehldau last night. Brad was absolutely wonderful. His bassist was rock solid. His drummer was awful. I mean mind-numbingly, painfully, drive-you-up-the-wall awful.

At every opportunity he would break the beat, he would do polyrhythms, he would stop for a crotchet on beat 2 and come in on beat 3 giving the impression he was at the beginning of a bar. He would play the bass drum like it was snare, maybe hitting the bass drum12 times/bar - this was at such a low volume thankfully you couldn't hear it. He had three rides, 2 of which sounded like trash cans and the bell sounded like a tin box. He played with plastic brushes, which were dull and didn't create that atypical sound.

But the biggest crime of all was at a peak of a song, with the keys and bass at full tilt, he didn't join in - content to just playing counter-beats and forever changing the tones so that there was never ever a sense of groove.

This should be made a criminal offence.

Davo

Later:

Brad has such a wonderful touch, so delicate, so powerful, so melodic that it is truly beyond my imagination why he would choose such a fussy and annoying drummer.

More:

Guys you've gotta trust me - he was awful.


Then this. The answer is yes:

Interesting view. How is it I love two parts of a trio, hate the third and I'm listening to the wrong music?

And:

Someone stated that Brad must know what he's doing and must have selected Ballard on purpose. I agree; and this is what I find so unfathomable!

And:

I don't want ride/snare ... I want drumming that fits the music. Oh well never mind ...


That's enough........ see a pattern? ............. Worthy of discussion?

He started it, he started it!

Well, whatever floats your boat. All I'm saying is that Davo has been treated pretty harshly here, and I just don't see any upside to that.

[Steamer]

He started it, he started it!

Well, whatever floats your boat. All I'm saying is that Davo has been treated pretty harshly here, and I just don't see any upside to that.


What about the brutal attacks on the fine talents of Jeff Ballard in question found in the thread I just referenced?

Are we living on the same bloody planet or what......??


The upside you say...... sure there's one. Taking a deeper look to see if you might have missed something {a few things} really important that night you might need further education on in the mix.

[Deltadrummer]

What about the brutal attacks on the fine talents of Jeff Ballard in question found in the thread I just referenced?

Are we living on the same bloody planet or what......??

What about the respect for a guy like you, and myself I'll include, who don't claim to know everything, aren't some musical elitists; but do our best to offer our insight soli to help someone out?

[Steamer]

What about the respect for a guy like you, and myself I'll include, who don't claim to know everything, aren't some musical elitists; but do our best to offer our insight soli to help someone out?

Good question? I'm a honest straight up shooter Ken like you.

No behind the scenes "issues", agendas and baggage and such..............:{

[DogBreath]

Hey guys, drop the temperature of this thread a few degrees please. It's getting hot in here.

[curiousnomad]

Two of the first jazz albums I ever bought and listened to extensively were John Coltrane Live at Newport (titled Selflessness) (Roy Haynes) and The Flowering of Charles Lloyd (Jack DeJohnette, Keith Jarrett). They were"cutouts" for $1.00 each at a cheesy mall record store. It so happens that these have LOTS of abstract playing. I was in high school and listening to Jethro Tull, Zappa. etc. Trying to find "One" was a challenge. But, the more you listen you realize that jazz is a complicated language with its own "rules", and that more modern jazz involves more abstract communication, including playing around the time, making the time elastic, interacting without being so obvious, etc. The time is still there, and with experience it is just as present as in any other music.
The same way a painting of a face can either be like a photograph, can only faintly resemble a face (or not at all). you don't always have to state the obvious to convey a thought or an emotion.

[aydee]

The same way a painting of a face can either be like a photograph, can only faintly resemble a face (or not at all). you don't always have to state the obvious to convey a thought or an emotion.

Well said.

You could either go :

DA DA DA DA

or

daSHUBI DE DOO da DOOBEDOO da DEEBEDESHUBEE da

woeva'

..

[Steamer]

Originally Posted by curiousnomad
The same way a painting of a face can either be like a photograph, can only faintly resemble a face (or not at all). you don't always have to state the obvious to convey a thought or an emotion.


Well said.


You could either go :

DA DA DA DA

or

daSHUBI DE DOO da DOOBEDOO da DEEBEDESHUBEE da

woeva'

..


Agreed.......


First the poetry now he scats... Abe the man of many talents :}

[aydee]

First the poetry now he scats... Abe the man of many talents :}

Just trying to lose the DA, Stan... its taken me years to get this far.. : )

[con struct]

What about the brutal attacks on the fine talents of Jeff Ballard in question found in the thread I just referenced?

"Brutal attacks?" Now that's just silly. It's only Davo's opinion, for crying out loud. Nothing personal at all, unlike the very real and unjustifiable attacks you and Deltadrummer have made on Davo.

[aydee]

Yet another 'Jazz' casualty.

Right guys, lets cork all the personal stuff. DB has been here once. If he comes again, this thread is history.

PS- Stan, Wayne Krantz told me he played the Montreal Jazz fest in 2007 and it was his favorite festival. Must have been fun..

[Steamer]

Yet another 'Jazz' casualty.

Right guys, lets cork all the personal stuff. DB has been here once. If he comes again, this thread is history.

PS- Stan, Wayne Krantz told me he played the Montreal Jazz fest in 2007 and it was his favorite festival. Must have been fun..

Yes indeed....:{



I've played it a few times Abe. First time was with The Bill Clark Sextet in the St. Denis Threatre during the fest as part of a representation of groups from right across Canada during the Alcan Jazz Competition which ran the length of the whole Montreal Jazz Festival which like I say was recorded for TV, radio and for further video and DVD use. Met Pat Metheny, Jack Dejohnette, Ornette Coleman, Bernard Purdie and many more since we were all put it in the same hotel. Pat was one of the judges for our performance. Came backstage after the concert and introduced himself to me and chatted after the set. Amazing week....

Next time was with the Saul Berson Quartet and we played on the big outdoor stage that time to 20,000 happy French Canadians the same day France won the soccer world cup. Crazy gig my friend.... :}

[Mediocrefunkybeat]

I do sometimes wonder what Jay Norem would have made of all this thread.

[aydee]

I've played it a few times Abe

Its huge isn't it? The biggest I think.

Anyhow, back on topic. Davo's proposition mystifies me. I find it hard to understand how a guy who listens to jazz, and to Brad, could find someone as accomplished as Jeff ' awful ' and 'criminally offensive'.

I can totally understand reactions like 'disappointing, underwhelming, sound was bad, drums sounded awful, Jeff was out of it etc ...God knows I've seen my share of dud gigs... but Dave makes a pretty categorical pronouncement about Jeff's lack of musicianship that particular evening. This to my mind, that isn't physically possible, if you play at that level, in any genre, as a matter of fact.

Personally, I'm as far removed as you can get from metal music. I dont get it, I somewhat dislike it but I can listen to and appreciate, Derek Roddy, Jason Bittner and Chris Adler.

So I dont get it. What was wrong with Jeff that night? I think even if he was down a few drinks and running a104 temperature, and fought with his girfriend just before the gig, he couldn't have sounded THAT bad? Specially to a jazz listener?

Help me out here, Davo.

[Steamer]

I do sometimes wonder what Jay Norem would have made of all this thread.


He's probably been following it........ :}




P.S. Yes Abe it's the biggest international jazz fest in the world

[PBW]

No, but it's a Suzanne Vega tune. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyxYL753w4

Yes that's it!!! Hehehehe

[Pollyanna]

Polly, I think I gave this guy more than his fair shake to come around. But after a few days he's still berating the drummer. One cannot mold a rock.

As you stated, I also like these discussion, regardless of their own pitfalls because they do yield their own particular fruits. The train wrecks of live performance, we've all been there. I would agree with you that everybody can have an insight, regardless of their sophistication. But this guy is mistaken and was mistaken from the first post. Where is the caveat that says someone can just be mistaken ? And where is your own humility so you can admit it? :)

I've been put through the ringer and it's not fun. But there is one thing about being put through the ringer by someone like Stan. You're going to come out the other side knowing more.

I am sensitive to what you are saying. But Stan has been right on this one. It is the nature of on line discussion that the guy could have started out saying, I didn't enjoy Jeff Ballard's playing. What is it about his playing that I would find so disquieting? Often when we start a question, it is coming from a place of frustration. But it's up to the frustrated to get over it.

Yep Ken. Davo could have been more descriptive and less judgemental terms in referring to JB's playing once he realised there were some serious JB admirers here. You don't bag out a performer on the web that people love (in front of them) without consequences :)

Still, I see where Conrad's coming from, and it's not really about this thread's topic so much as a general issue that pops up here every now and then.

Jazz has developed a lot over the decades and changed from being a "folk" music to something that can appear quite daunting to musical newbs. Not knocking it. I love jazz. But it's the textural aspects and the kind of energy it has that turns me on. I really couldn't care if the players were brilliant or a bit rough, as long as the spirit and sound is there. Not knocking skill either. Not much feels better than a brilliant musician pouring it out their soul. What's more of an earsore than someone who's not brilliant trying to make everyone think they are brilliant? Brilliance ain't the point for me, the soul aspect is.

In the 70s rock became sophisticated to a point where the average kid felt s/he had no hope of joining the "club". The result was punk.

The bar was set high and a bunch of players figured they wanted to play rock and thumbed their noses at the standards that had been set. No amount of criticism was going to stop them.

Not sure that a "punk jazz" group could make the same impact as The Sex Pistols did back then because rock was commercial music. Still, electronic nu-jazz seems to have an element of "punk jazz" about it ... simpler, more direct and visceral, takes less skill, etc

Nu-jazz sounds good, sure, but if new forms of jazz are going develop in a way that's accessible to young uns, I'd personally like to see it be organic more than electronica (not that anyone cares what I want).

Why can't some enterprising young people make a splash by not worrying about the technical aspects of jazz and just go for some simple, rip roaring, rough-as-guts jazzy music? Nothing serious. Just fun. After all, if people can start orchestras with junkyard items and fill stadiums why not some some punky jazz band? :) But I don't really see that happening.

[Deltadrummer]

I think that lack of definition was the problem, and I asked him this several times, what exactly bothers you?

There is a more general bias that has been shown in this thread, and it is that one that seems to undercut the validity of any kind of musical sophistication. There is enough fluff out there and there is Chris Botti, the Rippingtons and many Smooth Jazz artists who do popularize the jazz sound. And many jazz enthusiasts do rebuff them as not authentic. But that is the case in any musical art form, not just jazz. Why is Mozart a genius and Salieri washed to the vacuum of history? Why is Coldplay often criticized while John Mayer is recognized as a legitimate songwriter? Why is Thin Lizzy or Gary Moore so idealized these days as true heavy metal pioneers while Poison is seen as mere fluff? How many rock enthusiast really ever liked/like King Crimson, and why are they so important in the 80s as opposed to Thompson Twins or Culture Club? Keith Emerson was a big Sex Pistols fan, and a huge Genesis fan as well, and a huge Bach, Bernstein and Bartok fan. There's very few today who live in a musical vacuum. But the other day I went to see Joe Morello and spent the day with a bunch of 60+ guys who never got the Beatles, Listen to Brubeck and Art Pepper, and Dewey Redman, and are not apologetic about it. One guy said to me, "I just don't like vocal music. " Honest enough.What is wrong with that. Why is that so villainous?

Ari Hoenig calls what he does punk bop. http://www.myspace.com/arihoenig so it's out there.

There is a 20th century bias to see every generation as nihilistically cutting off all that was before. That is not really the case, as creation does not come out of nothing and is ingested with the vagary of aculturation. Schoenberg was noted for saying that dodecophony was the logical extension of Bach's use of equal temperament. There's a famous story in which John Cage asks him why he should listen to him and Schoenberg takes him to his office, points to the Beethoven's Symphony's and says, "See those. I can tell you why every note is in any of those works." Of course, Cage did nihilstically throw away the past by using sheet metal, nuts and bots, and tire irons in his works; but he did also write symphonic compositions.

There is a deeper aspect of listening, as one of my teachers said to me during lesson. You can sit and listen to the music and let it wash over you, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can also listen more deeply and have an understanding of why the music unfolds the way it does. There is nothing wrong with that either, and I would proffer that is something worth aspiring towards. it's like listening To Beethoven's Seventh Symphony without an understanding of counterpoint, or Mozart's 40th without an understanding of sonata form. Or post-bop jazz without an understanding of the style.Yeah, it's good; but it's much better when you understand what's going on.

[Steady Freddy]

Holly smokes!

I don't have a dog in this fight, but there is a repeating pattern here.

Time and time again people on this forum have stated that they didn't care for this or that rock, metal, punk, or whatever drummer and no one bats an eye.

Say something about a jazz drummer and oh boy! The hounds of hell are unleashed.

I've tried to enjoy jazz, but I don't, and I probably never will. I used to hang out at the Light House In Hermosa Beach, Ca. during the 70s and listen to all the jazz guys who came through. The club was a hot bed for jazz players and everyone played there.

I just never got it, even though I tried. I suppose one could say I needed to listen deeper or with a more educated ear. The thruth be told I got to the point where I didn't want to listen to it at all. I guess I'm just not wired that way. So what? Is the world suddenly going to end or something?

The OP stated that he didn''t like a well known jazz drummers performance. So what?
If he didn't like it. then he didn't like it. Simple as that. I don't see the need to go on for pages trying to justify this guy's playing by folks who weren't even there.

He didn't enjoy it, and voiced his opinion. Now it's all about brutal attacks. A brutal attack is waiting for the guy outside of the club and cutting off his arms with a chainsaw. :)

It's just words. He's entitled to his opinion, and others are entitled to rebutt that opinion. but this stuff is out of control.

Geeze,,,, chill out.

[bilkay]

It's only music, fellas.

[Deltadrummer]

Freddy ,

The OP stated that he didn't like a specific drummer; but did so with an air that he wanted to know why or what was going on. The question was, why do some jazz drummers feel the need to obscure the beat all night? If you really want an answer, you have to go through the rigor that the question warrants.

The discussion were not attacks and were not intended as attacks, even my notion that only a fool listens to the uninformed ear, which comes from an Arabic adage, only a fool listen to a man who doesn't know what he is talking about. I would think such an obvious observation would be cause for agreement, not some controversy. And it was intended in jest and fun, so if we are going to ask the question of who is to lighten up, and think maybe there a lot more guilt on the other side to go around.

[Steamer]

Freddy ,

The OP stated that he didn't like a specific drummer; but did so with an air that he wanted to know why or what was going on. The question was, why do some jazz drummers feel the need to obscure the beat all night? If you really want an answer, you have to go through the rigor that the question warrants.

The discussion were not attacks and were not intended as attacks, even my notion that only a fool listens to the uninformed ear, which comes from an Arabic adage, only a fool listen to a man who doesn't know what he is talking about. I would think such an obvious observation would be cause for agreement, not some controversy. And it was intended in jest and fun, so if we are going to ask the question of who is to lighten up, and think maybe there a lot more guilt on the other side to go around.

No personal attacks took place on the original poster. Join a university debating club if you don't believe me. This is how you fine tune knowledge by having a upfront debate on any subject you feel passionate about.

What is see here is a clear misrepresentation of what Ken and I and a few others tried to achieve based on the original stance which I referenced in several further examples in a recent post which goes far beyond one persons opinion but a much bigger general problem i've observed and encountered for years with certain forms of jazz music and the misunderstandings for a variety of specific reasons of what is presentented in front of you in this case conceptual elements of modern jazz music and playing in a more open style trio format. The music simply is what it is as things have moved and developed over the years as has happened in jazz music all along. You can't change that, nature of the beast and let it be. You can't change it to suit your personal taste or ears or expectations based on your own musical tastes, concept of what music should be, musical upbringing or experience level or personal bias. No exclusive membership required at all but it sure helps if you've actually followed the music and its developements in question all along before passing judgment on the music or its players is my sage advice I always suggest.

If so and you react strongly in opposition to certain elements of it just take a deep breath step back for moment and allow yourself to perhaps take a deeper more rewarding look at it further down the road. Might not happen overnight but worth a shot in my view.

You can only change what YOU have control over.........

[Davo-London]

I haven't responded as I realised everything I say and try to explain seems to be attacked - what can I say without making things worse? The vitriol shown here is unforgivable.

Davo

[Steamer]

I haven't responded as I realised everything I say and try to explain seems to be attacked - what can I say without making things worse? The vitriol shown here is unforgivable.

Davo

Don't play the victim Davo that's the easy way out. No personal attacks on you have taken place.......

Take some time to read the actual content of our thoughtful post not the "smoke screen" suggested late into the party

[Deltadrummer]

I just want to add two things:

1) Start a thread stating that John Boham, Neal Peart, Joey Jordison, Travis Barker, Jimmy Sullivan or Danny Carey is an awful drummer and see where that will go. The only difference is that if you say it about a jazz drummer, the people defending or explaining the drummer are snobs.

2) People want to play the victim but look at what has gone here, some of the insights into playing. Like I said earlier, I used this discussion as grist for the mill and inspiration to re-think some of these issues and apply them to my playing. All fragile egos aside, if you do that, nothing else matters.

[Pollyanna]

I think that lack of definition was the problem, and I asked him this several times, what exactly bothers you?

There is a more general bias that has been shown in this thread, and it is that one that seems to undercut the validity of any kind of musical sophistication. There is enough fluff out there and there is Chris Botti, the Rippingtons and many Smooth Jazz artists who do popularize the jazz sound. And many jazz enthusiasts do rebuff them as not authentic. But that is the case in any musical art form, not just jazz. Why is Mozart a genius and Salieri washed to the vacuum of history? Why is Coldplay often criticized while John Mayer is recognized as a legitimate songwriter? Why is Thin Lizzy or Gary Moore so idealized these days as true heavy metal pioneers while Poison is seen as mere fluff? How many rock enthusiast really ever liked/like King Crimson, and why are they so important in the 80s as opposed to Thompson Twins or Culture Club? Keith Emerson was a big Sex Pistols fan, and a huge Genesis fan as well, and a huge Bach, Bernstein and Bartok fan. There's very few today who live in a musical vacuum. But the other day I went to see Joe Morello and spent the day with a bunch of 60+ guys who never got the Beatles, Listen to Brubeck and Art Pepper, and Dewey Redman, and are not apologetic about it. One guy said to me, "I just don't like vocal music. " Honest enough.What is wrong with that. Why is that so villainous?

Ari Hoenig calls what he does punk bop. http://www.myspace.com/arihoenig so it's out there.

There is a 20th century bias to see every generation as nihilistically cutting off all that was before. That is not really the case, as creation does not come out of nothing and is ingested with the vagary of aculturation. Schoenberg was noted for saying that dodecophony was the logical extension of Bach's use of equal temperament. There's a famous story in which John Cage asks him why he should listen to him and Schoenberg takes him to his office, points to the Beethoven's Symphony's and says, "See those. I can tell you why every note is in any of those works." Of course, Cage did nihilstically throw away the past by using sheet metal, nuts and bots, and tire irons in his works; but he did also write symphonic compositions.

There is a deeper aspect of listening, as one of my teachers said to me during lesson. You can sit and listen to the music and let it wash over you, and there's nothing wrong with that. But you can also listen more deeply and have an understanding of why the music unfolds the way it does. There is nothing wrong with that either, and I would proffer that is something worth aspiring towards. it's like listening To Beethoven's Seventh Symphony without an understanding of counterpoint, or Mozart's 40th without an understanding of sonata form. Or post-bop jazz without an understanding of the style.Yeah, it's good; but it's much better when you understand what's going on.

Ken, Davo said on post #30 "On record to be sure he is kept on a much tighter beat. Wonderwall is a great track and he is fine on this ... but live. Guys you've gotta trust me - he was awful.".

The recorded music raised an expectation that was not met. He wouldn't have expected replication but it would be fair to expect something similar. It appears that the other musicians played more or less as expected (and that wouldn't have been slavish replication of the record) but JB didn't.

If it was very free jazz where the musos wing it from bar one, that's one thing. But it wasn't. That's interesting. Davo referred to himself as a 'sensitive player" so I expect that means he plays jazz and it follows that he's not a newb to all this. It makes me curious to know what was going on.

When it comes to musical "fluff" IMO smooth jazz still retains a fair bit of the technical expertise; it's not something kids can readily have a go at (phew!). Someone like David Sanborn is a superb technician. What was removed from the music was the spirit.

I'm thinking more the other way around, where the spirit is there but the technicality isn't so great that young uns feel they have to study like mad things to give it a go.

Why is jazz seen as a technical style of music? Where's Johnny Boppin' and the Sax Rifles? Ari Hoenig's "Punk Bop" is just him being cheeky. He ain't no punk. I've seen him play a drum kit made of cheese and he was really cookin'!

[Steamer]

Round and round and round we go......

All's been covered and maybe they just decided to just stretch out at this show doing a more completely open base trio improv that caught the listener off guard from his own personal "expectations" and musical "comfort zone". If so the band was fine with doing just that but the listener wasn't equipped to deal with it which could very well be the case. So it is in life. ..... happens.

Time to break out the ..............................................













Good luck!! Did my best......i'm done......

[Deltadrummer]

Yeah, we're back to the feel vs technique thread. If people read what has been said, we've covered this ground already.

[Pollyanna]

Actually what I spoke about hasn't been addressed anywhere that I've seen - related but not the same.

This particular "people" has absorbed what's been written earlier. There is no "versus" in what I'm talking about. I enjoy sophisticated musical expression. I also enjoy primitive musical expression too. Guess I just enjoy expression.

Whatever. Have a good day.

[wy yung]

Pol told me this was an interesting read. She was right.


I think calling Jeff Ballard a bad drummer is not a good idea. He is a world class A list jazz drummer. That's a fact.


As for Wynton Marsalis? God please save me from Wynton Marsalis! His mission seems to be to kill jazz. It's working.


One doesn't have to like all music out there. For example I hate Led Zep. A God awful band in my book. That's okay. It doesn't hurt anyone.

[jeffwj]

Pol told me this was an interesting read. She was right.


I think calling Jeff Ballard a bad drummer is not a good idea. He is a world class A list jazz drummer. That's a fact...

...One doesn't have to like all music out there. For example I hate Led Zep. A God awful band in my book. That's okay. It doesn't hurt anyone.

Wyung, just to clarify - why would it not be alright to use the term "awful" when referring to a jazz drummer, but it is ok to use it in reference to Led Zepplin? Wouldn't both situations be a listener preference? What is the difference?

Jeff

[wy yung]

Wyung, just to clarify - why would it not be alright to use the term "awful" when referring to a jazz drummer, but it is ok to use it in reference to Led Zepplin? Wouldn't both situations be a listener preference? What is the difference?

Jeff


I'm not calling JB an awful drummer. He was a great drummer. I think the music was awful. Plus they were so wasted. Every time I hear Page I think of smack. And JB drank himself to death. The band to me is all about self destruction and negativity.

Yes, it's all about listener preference. But in my experience it's not a good idea to call a well known drummer awful because it hurts one's reputation. I've no problem with someone doing it though. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'm not contradicting the OP. He can like whatever.

I don't think I've ever put down a drummer here.

[jeffwj]

I'm not calling JB an awful drummer. He was a great drummer. I think the music was awful. Plus they were so wasted. Every time I hear Page I think of smack. And JB drank himself to death. The band to me is all about self destruction and negativity.

Yes, it's all about listener preference. But in my experience it's not a good idea to call a well known drummer awful because it hurts one's reputation. I've no problem with someone doing it though. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I'm not contradicting the OP. He can like whatever.

I don't think I've ever put down a drummer here.

JB=John Bohnham, not Jeff Ballard - right?

I agree. I don't think I've ever put a drummer down here either. I think the original poster would have been better to just say that he did not enjoy the drummer's playing. Using terms like "awful" is derogatory - not preferential.

Jeff

[wy yung]

JB=John Bohnham, not Jeff Ballard - right?

I agree. I don't think I've ever put a drummer down here either. I think the original poster would have been better to just say that he did not enjoy the drummer's playing. Using terms like "awful" is derogatory - not preferential.

Jeff


Yes mate, JB = John Bonham. (it didn't occur to me about the initials)

Your posts are always great. My comment about Wynton was not directed at you. I cannot stand what has happened to jazz since he came along and I usually respond that way when I hear his name.

As for my feelings about Led Zepp, it's an awful band to me because I hate self destruction. I've seen too many young people die through drugs and drinking etc. I've known no less than 7 drummers who committed suicide. So any situation that represents negativity is awful to me. To be honest it worries me that so many young people are influenced by that band. No matter how good the drummer was.

God I am getting old! :-)

[jeffwj]

Yes mate, JB = John Bonham. (it didn't occur to me about the initials)

Your posts are always great. My comment about Wynton was not directed at you. I cannot stand what has happened to jazz since he came along and I usually respond that way when I hear his name.

As for my feelings about Led Zepp, it's an awful band to me because I hate self destruction. I've seen too many young people die through drugs and drinking etc. I've known no less than 7 drummers who committed suicide. So any situation that represents negativity is awful to me. To be honest it worries me that so many young people are influenced by that band. No matter how good the drummer was.

God I am getting old! :-)

I enjoy your posts as well. My Wynton quote was more or less in regard to the OP who didn't prefer drumming where the downbeat of the measure was so obscured. Wynton sort of posed the question in his book - should we start at the beginning of our study of jazz, or start with Parker (or free jazz or any other subgenre for that matter)? His point - when the entire history is studied, you can see where swing came from with Baby Dodds and Zutty Singleton. You can also see how guys like Tony Williams and Jack DeJohnette paved the way for today's jazz drummers.

Whether or not someone likes Wynton, they can still appreciate the question he posed.

Jeff

[Deltadrummer]

Have you ever felt that you were walking in a trailer park after a tornado. It's a strange calm.No offense against anybody; but I really can't do this anymore.:)

I love Led Zep; but long hated Metallica until I recognized that Zep could be heard as a bunch of moronic guitar riffs. It was just my age.

I agree, pop culture and rock cultures to tend towards destructive behavior and predatory behavior as well. The companies have marketed teenage angst and rebellion to the most vulnerable of audiences. And these rockers write autobiographies with sex filled escapades that would land most people in jail. Wynton actually was one of the people to start talking about this early on. the Whether people like it or not, he is a part of jazz history, call it traditionalism or neo-classic jazz. Early on I was somewhat partial to it but since I loved fusion, free jazz, smooth jazz and rock. I always thought Wynton was talking out his wrong side when it came to an objective view of jazz history. But he's built his thing and I've been there, another crummy sounding Hall, just what NY needed. He is a hot bed; but anyone who is at his level is going to have half of the people for him, the other half against. It's the nature of the beast. Did he ruin jazz? a lot of people seem to think so. He's got to move forward and start to program many of the fine young talented that are out there. then the whole things could be quite exciting. You seem skeptical.:)

[bobdadruma]

Wow! You guys are still at it I see. Interesting reading!
I love this stuff.

[con struct]

I think calling Jeff Ballard a bad drummer is not a good idea. He is a world class A list jazz drummer. That's a fact.


As for Wynton Marsalis? God please save me from Wynton Marsalis! His mission seems to be to kill jazz. It's working.

Ah, I see. It's perfectly okay to knock Wynton Marsalis, but it's infra dig to say that you didn't care for Jeff Ballard's drumming on the night you saw him.

I do not like his music, but Wynton Marsalis is actually a world-class trumpet player. Tell me that you wouldn't like to have his chops, go ahead, tell me that. Maybe the problem here is more with the listener.

Try listening again, listen deeper, and so on and so forth.

[mattsmith]

Ah, I see. It's perfectly okay to knock Wynton Marsalis, but it's infra dig to say that you didn't care for Jeff Ballard's drumming on the night you saw him.

I do not like his music, but Wynton Marsalis is actually a world-class trumpet player. Tell me that you wouldn't like to have his chops, go ahead, tell me that. Maybe the problem here is more with the listener.

Try listening again, listen deeper, and so on and so forth.
I was going to stay out of this but every time one of these guys gets involved in these multi layered complicated discussions, they jump in with so much self assured arrogance as to defy any kind of real credibility. They will even dog established pros with concise opinions when they have never proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they even perform music. I mean after all, it's so easy to play pretend on these things isn't it? And how fun it must be to come on a forum and pretend to have the same perspective as someone who actually does this and proves that every day.

In a real life situation, does a store owner argue brain surgery with a doctor? But don't you want to bet that these same types /and yes they are a type/ come to medical forums all the time and do exactly that.

But that's right, it's not brain surgery, business, government or anything like that...right?

Isn't the following statement what you always read here:

It's only music.

To me, that's at the core of every one of these debates. How about another perspective.

I've had it drilled into my head since I was still in a diaper that this was a naive POV and I believe it's the right opinion.

Why?

Yeah brain surgery, economies and all that other stuff forward a culture in the most positive kind of way...but do they define a culture which is really what it's going to be all about in the long term. When the Nazis confiscated all that art work during WWII, people died to get that stuff back, because devaluing a culture is the highest order of crime. And to many people deemphasizing this level of importance is certainly not a crime, but it does represent a kind of careless not looking after your stuff behavior.

Living in former communist countries I am told that the worst thing to have happened in the bad times was an elimination of a national identity through the destruction or the general demphasizing of culture. Now these places spend more time than they have to get all of that back and it's very sad to watch. It really screws up the bigger group collective of these places.

Music is at the top of this cultural identity and it's incredibly powerful. After seeing what I've seen at these places, I have no doubt that my own country is powerful, not because of its weapons, money or point of view/certainly not that/ but because it understands the need to preserve its culture above most things. And yeah it's America's music that people most like about us when they often don't like too much of anything else. That's just a fact.

And at the core of that is jazz... which for all practical purposes started this whole ball rolling.

So debating this furiously is stupid for why again exactly?

Yes, I used to be one of the guys who came to forums and tried to correct the other POV, then I realized that many people who come to forums don't see the importance of culture as much as others. And you know there's nothing wrong with that. They have their opinions about how it all works as much as the other side has theirs.

But for me, it becomes insulting when the other point of view makes condescending authoritative statements because they're mad about something else. And I'm going to go ahead and say that most times it's because a guy like Steamer is actually out there doing it while the angry guy isn't. One day I remember coming here, and getting upset with the usual bait and switch/ pot calling the kettle black/ thread, and then realized that when I was out playing gigs these same guys were still here arguing. In fact I remember one time even getting a browbeating comment about claiming to be on a gig as if to imply I wasn't so big, when in fact I had never said that.

That was all I needed to know, and it was the primary reason I walked away from these discussions. Yes, everyone has a right to his opinion but NO not all opinions are created equal. And believing otherwise doesn't really change that. Now does that mean that a lesser musician can't have a lock solid POV? Of course not. But I think we can all see the the other stuff when it happens.

That's it for me on having an opinion. But if you happen to be in Eastern Europe this week, I'll be glad to talk to you at a show or try to convince why the drumsticks I endorse are good sticks.

[Pollyanna]

Wy, I never worked out why people say they don't like Wynton Marsalis. Et tu Bruté? :)

IMO retro music is a ton of fun both the listen to and to play (speaking as a dinosaur), plus WM's band is stellar and you can't help but to love Herlin Riley. Do yourself a favour and YouTube Herlin. You'll be glad you did!

[bobdadruma]

I have read so many discussions here like this that I can't count them all.
Some people like "Real Jazz" Some people like "Smooth Jazz"
The Real Jazz lovers hate the Smooth Jazz players. They have the perspective that the Smooth players sold out or something like that.
I like and appreciate both styles of Jazz, along with everything in between. I study Jazz and I use the techniques to play other styles of music. Jazz has improved my playing ability 100%. Jazz is the greatest thing to have ever happened to music!
Jazz taught me an understanding of music that I never had before I starting studying it!
When I read the first post in this thread I was laughing out loud.

[Deltadrummer]

Matt, yeah . . . .

I had originally posted a response to that statement but deleted it as unworthy of response.; how can you discuss music with someone who feels that way about it? And I think generally most of the posters on this thread don't feel that way differing opinions and all.

What do you do once you cross that line into seeing music as something more than triviality? You can turn on the radio and hear it at will; but what if that was gone and you were denied your music? Then when you heard it again, you may come to realize its significance, it's not just triviality.

There are many types of music in the sense that music has purpose; it can be functional but it can be art. This is the reason why Paul McCartney was furious with Michael Jackson for using The Beatles music commercially. There is a special now on PBS that goes into the significance of the Beatles in bringing down the iron curtain., stating even Gorbachev knew that The Beatles music brought western culture to the USSR in a way that could not be stopped and that was the beginning of the end, the freedom that it represented. And you have the swing kids in Germany during Nazi occupation who held on to jazz as a moment of sanity, resistance and and freedom in an insane world.

I think I shared this story before but I was involved in a performance of Mahler's Second Symphony over two weeks watching the people cry every night and get all emotional then one night watching someone actually die during a performance. Was it the music? I don't know; but you come to realize that the power of music quickly.

But how can you discuss that with someone who has never been moved by music?

[con struct]

I mean after all, it's so easy to play pretend on these things isn't it?

Boy, you've said a mouthful there. Well, what are you going to do? People, you know...

[aydee]

Wy, I never worked out why people say they don't like Wynton Marsalis.?

Because he has a kind of arrogance that is so very not jazz.

Because he thought if he could mothball and laminate jazz, give it some vintage shine and institutionalize it, it might get the same gravitas as classical music, and be put on the same pedestal. A noble yet foolish mission, IMO.

Problem is jazz will always be the irreverent wayward child.. not fitting into anyone's framework or definition of how 'it should be'.

I will quote Jazzgregg once again: 'Jazz isnt just music, its an attitude'.

[Deltadrummer]

If anything killed jazz in the 80s, it is said that it was the institutionalization of the art form. When jazz players could get a cushy, academic position there was no need to explore. But now a lot of guys have a degree in music, which is so un-jazz. That is always going to be a problem at the JALC.

[Pollyanna]

Because he has a kind of arrogance that is so very not jazz.

Because he thought if he could mothball and laminate jazz, give it some vintage shine and institutionalize it, it might get the same gravitas as classical music, and be put on the same pedestal. A noble yet foolish mission, IMO.

Problem is jazz will always be the irreverent wayward child.. not fitting into anyone's framework or definition of how 'it should be'.

I will quote Jazzgregg once again: 'Jazz isnt just music, its an attitude'.

I'm a bit surprised, Abe. You're not normally one for hard words.

I take it your comment is to do with something he's said? I find his stuff pretty easy on the ear, actually. I know it's possible to enjoy both his music and that of Art Ensemble and Weather Report because I do. Bob probably does too. How can he single-handedly shut down progress in the jazz scene? I don't geddit.

I always felt that a jazz attitude was something like, "Damn, what's going down is too staid. I'm gunna jazz it up" :)

It's similar to the spirit of rock IMHO, just that jazzing something up or rocking it out are different processes. The common aim to my ear is to move beyond being merely correct and create an experience, ie. the correctness is organically achieved more than consciously sought. Or more colloquially, to kick [donkey].

[aydee]

I take it your comment is to do with something he's said? and done.

For starters, he came out and told the world what was not jazz.
( Miles Davis was thrown out with this 'bath water' too in this sweeping definition, for example ).

Anything that was outside of pre bop and bop was non-jazz. In his view, the only jazz is what happened in the 50s, and whatever came later was diluted and polluted and in so attempting to preserve this 'sacred music' he vilified everything else. Innovation was a bad thing. Jazz?

( Todays philharmonics still playing music written 4 centuries ago...? a chip on jazz's shoulder ?...his shoulder? you decide )

I find his stuff pretty easy on the ear, actually. I know it's possible to enjoy both his music and that of Art Ensemble and Weather Report because I do. How can he single-handedly shut down progress in the jazz scene? I don't geddit.

Well, he's a great player no doubt, even though Blakey thought he couldn't 'keep up' with his band. I love Weather Report too, Heavy Weather was an mind-opener and Jaco is a God of sorts to me, but if Wynton was God, Weather Report would never have existed.

I always felt that a jazz attitude was something like, "Damn, what's going down is too staid. I'm gunna jazz it up" :)

I couldn't have said this any better myself.

It's similar to the spirit of rock IMHO, just that jazzing something up or rocking it out are different processes. The common aim to my ear is to move beyond being merely correct and create an experience, ie. the correctness is organically achieved more than consciously sought. Or more colloquially, to kick [donkey].

Well, experience is a many splendored thing, and I could love what you hate. ( We both love WR, so no trouble there ; ).
All music is experience. Felt, thought, eaten, burped..

Its just as Charlie Parker said; "Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn."

Agree with you entirely that there is no such thing as correct music,,Polly.

....

[Pollyanna]

For starters, he came out and told the world what was not jazz.
... Anything that was outside of pre bop and bop was non-jazz. In his view, the only jazz is what happened in the 50s, and whatever came later was diluted and polluted and in so attempting to preserve this 'sacred music' he vilified everything else. Innovation was a bad thing. Jazz?

I see where's Wynton is coming from, even he's confused his personal tastes with objective fact. My Dad thinks most music that came after Benny Goodman, Tommy Dorsey and (ugh!) Kay Kyser is noise. He's in his mid-80s. He sees Duke as being like prog.

Jazz did take a sharp left-hand turn with the advent of hard bop and free, and it became less accessible. I guess that was around the time that the "one" went missing (the circle turns!). Of course the changes were exactly in the spirit of jazzing things up since bop had become absorbed by The Establishment as does all new music in some way.

Jazz's edge was back along with a growing sophistication, but that seemed to come at the expense of some of its charm. By "charm" I mean instant appeal and likableness. That might be where WM is coming from ...?

What I find interesting is that the general public seems to have a threshhold where they go only so far. No matter what the style is, once the improv and daring reaches a certain point the GP is gone. You'd think that they would gradually move along but modern music history is littered with examples of artists gradually stretching out and, instead of the public going with them, they stop and take up with some enfant terrible offering something easier to digest.

It happens in art, movies, dancing, whatever. There's this constant tension between artists' desire to push the boundaries and the public's desire to keep those boundaries in place.

[aydee]

I see where's Wynton is coming from, even he's confused his personal tastes with objective fact.....

I think the problem went beyond his personal tastes. He saw himself as some kind of gatekeeper. A censor. He successfully managed to get under the skin of some people who left bigger jazz imprint than him. A very presumptuous stance in my view.

It happens in art, movies, dancing, whatever. There's this constant tension between artists' desire to push the boundaries and the public's desire to keep those boundaries in place.

Absolutely. And over time, the boundaries keep changing too, dont they? I heard Lucy in the sky with Diamonds in a Hilton elevator the other day.

...

PS- apologies, Davo if this thread has gone a little off beat and poly-rhythmic here, but relevant, I think...

[Pollyanna]

Oh well. I don't like his chances of getting Miles and Trane reclassified from being called jazz to being called ... um, jazz-like progressive music? It would never catch on. You can't fight city hall.

Still, there are threshholds that I can't articulate, but they are there. Something to do with human impulses towards order and chaos?

When will we be be hearing Sun Ra's Arkestra in elevators? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SsBtfuSDxw

Similar vintageto Lucy but on a different planet (Saturn, apparently :)

[aydee]

Still, there are threshholds that I can't articulate, but they are there. Something to do with human impulses towards order and chaos?

When will we be be hearing Sun Ra's Arkestra in elevators? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SsBtfuSDxw

Similar vintageto Lucy but on a different planet (Saturn, apparently :)

SunRa on an elevator?? I take the stairs, thank you very much : )

I think you are right about thresholds, though that is yet another variable in this wonderful human urge to peg things down. Order is comforting and chaos isn't.

Musical taste, in my opinion is also like most other occurrences on this planet. Something that has a small trail blazing head, a big fat lukewarm body and a thin cool tail. Thats at least 3 thresholds right there if you dont want to further subdivide.

I think I'm getting a little esoteric for this thread. Need a Latte about right now. I think I'll start another jazz thread and get off Davos parade.

...

[Pollyanna]

SunRa on an elevator?? I take the stairs, thank you very much : )

I think you are right about thresholds, though that is yet another variable in this wonderful human urge to peg things down. Order is comforting and chaos isn't.

Musical taste, in my opinion is also like most other occurrences on this planet. Something that has a small trail blazing head, a big fat lukewarm body and a thin cool tail. Thats at least 3 thresholds right there if you dont want to further subdivide.

I think I'm getting a little esoteric for this thread. Need a Latte about right now. I think I'll start another jazz thread and get off Davos parade....

Come on, Abe. I can tell you're one of these modern, flexible guys who can multitask :)

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be trapped in a lift with Sun Ra, either. I find I really need to be in the mood and have control of the volume knob with him.

Utility is a big issue. What are you using music for? Comfort? Stimulation? Excitement? Restfulness? A turn on? Background? People had more time and inclination to really listen to music for itself. These days more people only have time to multitask their music so the first musical attribute to drop off the popular list is challenge. It' has to be easy, at least for those who have started familes or have demanding jobs.

Not much demand for music that works best when you close your eyes and sail away, like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah5OVkgUtF8

I like your description, "small trail blazing head, a big fat lukewarm body and a thin cool tail". Very evocative. It sounds a bit like the cat up the road :)

[Davo-London]

I'm tempted to return now there feels like a ceasefire.

If we continue the analogy with art,. In MoMA (NY) there are about 100 small sketches (pen and paper) by Picasso. It's a great collection, but I came away thinking that Picasso was a bit of a perv (lots of female genitalia on show) and that the drawings were rather vulgar with a notable simplicity. If that was Picassos' only output he would be a footnote. But because, quite rightly IMHO, he is considered one of the most important and influential artists from the 20th Century, the sketches are important and valuable. But they're still vulgar IMHO, if I'm honest with myself.

The point is that an artists output can be varied. It's not all genius.

Davo

[rootheart]

If you notice close and watch some jazz music videos you will find that the drummer might sound weired and out of time..but: .focus on the other musicians body language: they are all connected with each other by suptile body language, such as noddin heads, or something, and they all know where they are, and they all have in common the thema, the puls, and the virtual walking bass...-this is why they all come in on the one after a "out of time drum chorus"..This does not work with amateur rock musicians, and it is not a matter of the drummer but a matter of the other musicians to understand eg. that it is great art to make the audience feel the quarternote pulse, without playin any quarternote..such creating the quarternote puls without playing any quarternote..sorry: this is very hard very hard to explain, I guess

[Deltadrummer]

I went to see the Five Peace Band At Lincoln Center, and they stated that it was nice to be recognized for their contributions to jazz. JALC has a long way to go; but there have been little moments where they do seem to get it. I've never been able to sit through a Wynton performance. But I meet a lot of people who think that he is a god, esp horn players. But this is NY, the capitol of experimentation. It was once anyway.Is JALC the respite of a once glorious city? I hope not. Will AEC be there soon, I would doubt it. What about Metheny or Brad Mehldau? It is kind of a strange place. I went to see Eddie Palmieri and he had his re-formed conjunto La Perfecta that did all 1950s-60s Latin dance music.from his days at the Palladium. I'd seen them before. I was hoping he would be doing jazz with Horatio. Wynton just had a concert with Willie Nelson. It seems to be a lot of these 'really' older guys playing there. I would wonder if WM has come to realize he tightens his historical shoes too tight.

Davo, it's hard to come from an agreed upon point of understanding because you are the only one here who was at the concert last week. And we have no way of knowing how much you know about jazz and how much you are familiar with the style. I would suggest it is important to ask yourself, what were my bias' towards enjoying and making an informed decision about his playing? And your experience, to you, is what really matters.

I feel comfortable talking about jazz because I know more about it today than I did yesterday. Are you the same person listening to jazz that wrote the original post? I hope not. I know I sure am not the same jazz listener I was a week ago, and that's the point.

[wy yung]

Referencing Jeff's comment regarding Wynton's question. Every question is valid to some degree. I see many younger students today who wish to start at an advanced level. Many do not wish to learn the basics, let alone the history of the instrument of their choosing. He may be right in many respects.

Regarding Con's comment on my dislike of how I see jazz has suffered as a result of his many comments denigrating modern jazz? Too many jazz playing friends have suffered since that historical TV documentary Wynton advised Ken Burns about. Wages went down and often disappeared altogether after that. I stopped bothering about jazz playing altogether after doing what had been a well paid regular gig and getting $30.00 for my trouble.

Did not comment on his playing.

Pol, I have been listening to Herlin for years. ;-)

Because he has a kind of arrogance that is so very not jazz.

Because he thought if he could mothball and laminate jazz, give it some vintage shine and institutionalize it, it might get the same gravitas as classical music, and be put on the same pedestal. A noble yet foolish mission, IMO.

Problem is jazz will always be the irreverent wayward child.. not fitting into anyone's framework or definition of how 'it should be'.

I will quote Jazzgregg once again: 'Jazz isnt just music, its an attitude'.

Yes, this is my thought as well. Whether right or wrong. There's a reason Miles booted him off his stage.

[Deltadrummer]

Too many jazz playing friends have suffered since that historical TV documentary Wynton advised Ken Burns about. .

I don't know why jazz has been dying in the last ten years. But do you really think you can blame it all on Wynton?The market for Classical music has also been dying. it's been taken over by Christian music and country music. Are listeners in general, no longer looking for a type of sophistication in music? From where I stand, there is a lot of great jazz being performed and a lot of great young player like Mehldau or Christian McBride, Joshua Redman, Avishai Cohen, Brian Blade. It seems to me that there are a lot of people complaining jazz is dying while you have a great young generation of players coming of age.

[wy yung]

I don't know why jazz has been dying in the last ten years. But do you really think you can blame it all on Wynton?

I'm not blaming it all on him. I do think he has had a detrimental effect though.

Jazz has been steadily dying since the 50's. Hence Earl Palmer's quote.

Jazz did not begin as a bourgeois pursuit. Now however that is how it is seen. Taking a section of it, for example pre sixties jazz, and placing it in a bubble only serves to exhibbit as something dead. Like Phar Lap!


http://www.pharlapdoco.com/images/cabinet.jpg

[con struct]

I'm not blaming it all on him. I do think he has had a detrimental effect though.

Jazz has been steadily dying since the 50's. Hence Earl Palmer's quote.

Jazz did not begin as a bourgeois pursuit. Now however that is how it is seen. Taking a section of it, for example pre sixties jazz, and placing it in a bubble only serves to exhibbit as something dead. Like Phar Lap!


http://www.pharlapdoco.com/images/cabinet.jpg

True, that. A buddy of mine, a jazz player, had some friends of his playing at a club a couple of weeks ago, so he and I shared a taxi and went to see them play.

It was terrible, and these were some pretty well-know guys. They were actually playing songs like "All The Things You Are." Each player had a music stand and the charts kept falling to the stage. They didn't have a set list, the keyboard player would call a tune and then everyone else would flip through their charts until they found the one they were looking for. This made for a lot of dead time.

I understand that it was basically a pickup gig but...still.

Old, old, old. It was like being at a wake, and there was hardly anyone there.

As we were leaving the club my friend said, "Well, that was embarassing."

I'm not saying that this represents the totality of jazz these days, but that this sort of thing should happen at all, and at a well-know jazz venue, isn't doing jazz any favors.

[mrchattr]

Interesting read. I just want to point out two different things to the side conversations that happened:

1. I agree with the Marsalis negativity (about his attitude). His discrediting attempt at Miles, Trane, etc, is too much for me to stomach, even though I like some of his music.

2. One person managed to take this discussion to a way too hot place. I just want to remind the users of DW that you can click on any persons profile, then "User Lists", then "Add to Ignore List" and that person will no longer show up in threads when you read them!!!!!!!!!!

[wy yung]

Here's something from Bruford's book.

Regarding jazz history and growth. Latter day high priests such as Wynton Marsalis have changed it further and brought it to the walls of the fortress, where it can be protected, conserved and taught to the young under strict control, but also wrapped in cotton wool and prevented from further change, or what he would presumably call tampering or dumbing down.

Getting back to the OP though, I do not think jazz drummers lose the beat, they simply take rhythm in different directions. In fact the word "beat" is to me not in context regarding jazz playing. The better term is "pulse". At least to my way of thinking.

[Deltadrummer]

Good point. I think that what happens when you create history is that you are interpreting a tradition. It is marketing in that sense. It's no longer art. One must be vary careful. This was what I was saying about the different ears, to allude to the fact that you can develop some kind of an intellectual framework for entering into art; but you need to let that go to have a more immediate experience of it.

Same thing with performing. As you know, people tend to think of jazz as a free form Jackson Pollock type of having a go at the canvass. And I guess it can be like that but you have to know what you are doing to pull it off. What happens on stage is a manifestation and transformation of what happens in the practice studio. The techniques that Jeff Ballard is using to obscure and play with the sense of time have been developed and used by other jazz drummers.He knows what he is doing.

As far as Wynton's ideas leading to the decline of jazz. Wynton was always interested in creating jobs for jazz musicians. When bop came along and the big bands declined guys were out of work. When rock and fusion came along, guys were out of work. So now you have a venue in which people can perform and cultivate the craft. How many great works ahve been added to the canon of western music since it was codified? Very few; but it was really a done deal by then any way.

[donv]

How many great works ahve been added to the canon of western music since it was codified? Very few; but it was really a done deal by then any way.

Ken,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you go into more detail?

[brittc89]

To the OP, life is all about conflict and resolution, tension and release. Music should be a reflection of life. Obscuring the beat, playing over bar lines, these things cause tension. Constant tension can be hard to deal. COnstant release makes me personally want to vomit. FInding the medium between tension and release, its a beautiful pursuit. Listen to Nasheet Waits, that always makes me feel better.

[Deltadrummer]

Ken,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you go into more detail?

There has been considerable debate about the future of what we call classical music for well over half a century. In much the same way that we hear now about jazz, many artists, notably John Cage, declared that the tradition was over and that the idea of "the great composer" was an no longer needed. Beethoven, Verdi or Brahms were popular public figures in their day, and this was before mass communication. Today, Beethoven. Mozart and Bach are still household names; but what about Stravinsky or Bartok, never mind Messian or Stockhausen. John Adams is one of the leading composers in the world today, but how many people know that. The question of how symphony orchestras are going to continue in the future is a big concern.

The great canon of western orchestral music starts with the works of Vivaldi and Bach and goes through those of Stravinsky and Bartok. This is what you will see performed at an Symphony Hall. You can add Copland, though I don't know how widely performed he is outside of America. Bernstein was popular due to his conducting and of course West Side Story. But who is the modern day Bernstein? Will the works of Elliot Carter or Pierre Boulez survive them in the concert hall? We will see. But they will probably never be part of the popular consciousness the way Beethoven and Verdi are.

There is a whole political dimension here because many people depend on this continuation of the tradition for their livelihood, the many great musicians and conductors. What would they do if every university wasn't teaching people that this music was valuable? On the down side, once you spend so much time and energy on the recreation of old works, what about the time and effort spent procuring new talent and new ways of seeing and doing art? Everybody's attention is on seeing the nth performance of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony.

Marsalis is putting jazz into that same mold. It becomes about recreating Monk or Ellington rather than exploring jazz as living art form. If you set up Armstrong, Ellington and Parker as the wholly trinity of jazz then where do you go? And then you start to say that this doesn't belong in the canon: Miles, Ornette, Coltane, never mind Herbie Hancock, Chick Corea or Wayne Shorter.

Even some of the more steadfast classical academics realize that it was problematic when they did codified the western canon. But in European music, you do have these figures like Bach, Beethoven and Stravinsky who are pretty huge. but in jazz, which is a post-modern art form, one that fundamentally takes place in the performance, it is really debatable whether or not you can do that. And the proliferation of art and culture in the twentieth century was so wide and disparate at time, you would have to ask the question of why one would want to.

[aydee]

To the OP, life is all about conflict and resolution, tension and release. Music should be a reflection of life. Obscuring the beat, playing over bar lines, these things cause tension. Constant tension can be hard to deal. COnstant release makes me personally want to vomit. FInding the medium between tension and release, its a beautiful pursuit. Listen to Nasheet Waits, that always makes me feel better.

Superb post! Geez I wish I could express things this succinctly. Its says it all.

[Deltadrummer]

To the OP, life is all about conflict and resolution, tension and release. Music should be a reflection of life. Obscuring the beat, playing over bar lines, these things cause tension. Constant tension can be hard to deal. COnstant release makes me personally want to vomit. FInding the medium between tension and release, its a beautiful pursuit. Listen to Nasheet Waits, that always makes me feel better.

Yeah, Nice post Britt. deserves repeating. Sorry to bury it in the long diatribe, which was actually concise in its own way. :)