Practicing while asleep?

[Colerosity]

Quick question, before I try it tonight - does listening to a song on repeat, while you're asleep, help with memorization? Your mind isn't conscious and interpreting, but it's probably similar to passively listening to music. Worked for anyone else?

[Concrete Pete]

Hey Cole,

Yes, it does. Subconscious brain memorization (from what I've heard and read) cuts right to the quick. Just don't go into sleep deprivation doing it!

Cheers,
C. P.

[MadJazz]

Nonsense, it does not help. Lately I watched a show that put this to the test and the result was negative. How silly to believe that.

[Naigewron]

Last I checked, there is no scientific basis for saying it helps the slightest.

However, what has been shown, is that sleep helps with storing memories you've made during the day. In practice, this basically means that if you don't get enough sleep, you'll have a harder time storing long-term memories from the day before.

[JPW]

Yeah, no proof. But listen to it just before you go to sleep and you remember it better than listening to it in the middle of the day.

[Abel]

Trying to listen to music and fall asleep at the same time is torture to me.

[jonescrusher]

How silly to believe that.


What, that something a show did constitutes scientific proof? Indeed.

As far as I know the jury's still out, it would be useful to see sources for studies that have investigated it in the first place.
People like Kenny Werner advocate the use of deep relaxation techniques to aid learning, the idea being that the larger, slower brain waves that occur in a state of deep relaxation are more conducive to absorbing material/creativity.
Therefore, it may help having a piece playing during the stages of sleep that occur before REM. I can't see there being any benefit having it playing during the very deepest satge of sleep.

[jameswadewilson]

It's helping me. When I have to cram a lot of music I have it play quietly as I sleep.

Nonsense, it does not help. Lately I watched a show that put this to the test and the result was negative. How silly to believe that.

[bobdadruma]

I imagine that in some instances while you are in different levels of sleep, Some learning could occur. I don't believe that a substantial amount of learning will occur.
It has been proven that while sleeping the brain continues to process information that you have been exposed to while you were awake. That is part of the reason for sleep. Sleep allows the brain time to reset itself as well as the body.
Have you ever worked on a drum part during the day and found that you couldn't play it well? You later slept and the next day you could play the tune much better than the previous day. Your brain worked on the song while you slept! It used the info that it received while you were awake.

[dairyairman]

i basically can't sleep when any kind of music is audible. i can't stop listening to it!

i've tried a lot of things when it comes to learning songs. for me the quickest way is to chart it out and then play along to recordings of it or practice it with my band. if i just listen to a song i'll become familiar with it but i won't necessarily be able to play it.

[JPW]

People have always wanted to find shortcuts in learning. If this shortcut was a true one, it would be part of every music learing book out there. =P The consept isn't new at all.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

I could have slept my way through college....Oh yeah, I did.

[donv]

I could have slept my way through college....Oh yeah, I did.

Dry county college huh? For me sleep was something you did when the booze ran out. Class was something you did when broke.

Colerosity,

A lot of opinions here, and I don't have an answer, but it can it hurt to give it a try can it? Since you're sleeping anyway, it's not like you'll be wasting time trying.

[bobdadruma]

One other thing that I want to mention. We learn by doing. Playing a song is a combination of both memorizing the song and obtaining the muscle memory needed to play the part.
Being able to think of what has to be played isn't enough to actually play the song. I find that most of this process has to be done by playing the song and mixing the mental and physical skills together.
Many different parts of the brain have to work in harmony to accomplish this task. It is an amazing feat! The relationship between mental processing and physical accomplishment has always intrigued me. The mind controlling the body to react in a desired fashion.
When we sleep, The brain releases chemicals that detach the brain from the body. This sometimes goes wrong and a sleep disorder occurs such as Sleep Walking.
I became interested in how the brain controls the body a few years ago after I suffered a mild stroke. I had to learn how to use different parts of my brain to take up the slack from the parts of my brain that were damaged.
here are some links that will lead you to many others if you chose to research this topic further. http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-muscle-memory.htm

[Pollyanna]

One other thing that I want to mention. We learn by doing. Playing a song is a combination of both memorizing the song and obtaining the muscle memory needed to play the part.
Being able to think of what has to be played isn't enough to actually play the song. I find that most of this process has to be done by playing the song and mixing the mental and physical skills together.

Hmm, I think an awful lot can be worked out by thinking through a song, something I have to do since I can't play the kit at home. If you've been playing for a long time a lot of the muscle memory is already there and I can make much progress just sitting down and playing a groove on my thigh while tapping my foot on the floor. If you can get that sounding good it wounds a whole lot better on the kit!

As for sleep learning, I'm not so keen. I'd rather "be there" to enjoy it rather than have the learning done while I'm "not there".

[bobdadruma]

Hmm, I think an awful lot can be worked out by thinking through a song, something I have to do since I can't play the kit at home. If you've been playing for a long time a lot of the muscle memory is already there and I can make much progress just sitting down and playing a groove on my thigh while tapping my foot on the floor. If you can get that sounding good it wounds a whole lot better on the kit!

As for sleep learning, I'm not so keen. I'd rather "be there" to enjoy it rather than have the learning done while I'm "not there".The fact that you play on your thigh and tap your foot means that you are using both muscle memory and memory of your kit as a learning tool along with your memory of the song. It makes the learning easier when you tap the tune out. Tapping out the tune allows you to work out the logistics of playing the song on a kit.
I can imagine that I play all sorts of things, actually playing them is a whole other thing. If I could only play everything that I can imagine that I can play!

[Pollyanna]

I can imagine that I play all sorts of things, actually playing them is a whole other thing. If I could only play everything that I can imagine that I can play!

At a certain level I can imagine playing something but if I'm REALLY focusing and including the nuance I can only imagine what I can play. If I could only play everything that I can play on my thighs :)

[JPW]

The point of those deeper states of sleep is to detach the brain from any outside input. If you listen to music on those stages you just don't hear it or you aren't in the deep state and if you do that too much you get sleep deprived and start to go crazy and definetly won't learn so much. So yes, I think it actually can do more harm than good.

Of course I'm not a professional brain researcher but I am well educated and have done some personal studying on the area.

If you truly wan't to try something new, try dividing your sleep into two parts. And by two parts I mean parts where you can get yourself in to the REM sleep stages. Then physically practice two times between those sleeps. What I have understood is that your brain stores the procedural memory (like playing music) in the REM stage. On the otherhand the "fact based" things like word and their meaning (when studying a language for example) is stored in the lighter stages of sleep.

[Pachikara-Tharakan]

Trying to listen to music and fall asleep at the same time is torture to me.

works with me wenever i put on On an Island-David Gilmour.

[bobdadruma]

The point of those deeper states of sleep is to detach the brain from any outside input. If you listen to music on those stages you just don't hear it or you aren't in the deep state and if you do that too much you get sleep deprived and start to go crazy and definetly won't learn so much. So yes, I think it actually can do more harm than good.

Of course I'm not a professional brain researcher but I am well educated and have done some personal studying on the area.

If you truly wan't to try something new, try dividing your sleep into two parts. And by two parts I mean parts where you can get yourself in to the REM sleep stages. Then physically practice two times between those sleeps. What I have understood is that your brain stores the procedural memory (like playing music) in the REM stage. On the otherhand the "fact based" things like word and their meaning (when studying a language for example) is stored in the lighter stages of sleep.I think that you nailed it! Rem sleep followed by practice and Short periods of sleep (Naps) in between are probably the best thing.
As I have gotten older I have discovered the benefit of the nap. Not because I'm lazy or tired, because short periods of sleep help considerably. I don't sleep as long at night anymore. 5 hours or so.

[JPW]

I think that you nailed it! Rem sleep followed by practice and Short periods of sleep (Naps) in between are probably the best thing.
As I have gotten older I have discovered the benefit of the nap. Not because I'm lazy or tired, because short periods of sleep help considerably. I don't sleep as long at night anymore. 5 hours or so.

I have tried napping (I'm only 26 years old) but I just don't seem to get myself in the deeper states of sleep right after practice. Too much stuff going in my head and heart racing like crazy. So for now I have given up on it. Maybe I try it out again in the future when I'm older. (I'm not sure how age affects it but it seems older people manage it more easily)

[bobdadruma]

I have tried napping (I'm only 26 years old) but I just don't seem to get myself in the deeper states of sleep right after practice. Too much stuff going in my head and heart racing like crazy. So for now I have given up on it. Maybe I try it out again in the future when I'm older. (I'm not sure how age affects it but it seems older people manage it more easily)When your older you tend to sleep more often for shorter periods of time. Teenagers need the most hours of continuos sleep according to what I've read.
I understand where you're coming from. When I was in my twenties I would go for days without sleep! I think that my twenties and thirties were the most productive times of my life. I could work for 16 hours, Fool around for four hours, Then sleep for four hours and I would be fine.
I have a memory of going through a period of leaving the radio on while I slept when I was in my twenties. I don't think that any learning ever came from it. I probably tried it for a few weeks.

[ChipJohns]

At a certain level I can imagine playing something but if I'm REALLY focusing and including the nuance I can only imagine what I can play. If I could only play everything that I can play on my thighs :)

I goota side with Polly on this one bobdadruma. I didn't need to use my muscle memory when learning a song. I have learned a song by just looking at the chart. I have also learned songs by just listening to them.

When we use to play a fair share of weddings we would have to learn quite a few songs each week. Sometimes the day of the wedding we would receive a tape of a song we needed to play. I would have the opportunity to listen to it, but, not play it before we played it live..

I would visualize playing a song, I'm good at that, But this isn't muscle memory since none of my muscles were physically being programmed .

I do believe that muscle memory is necessary for learning technique and rudiments, but, can't get on board for it being necessary to learning a song.

I'm sure it can work but is just as empirical as learning in our sleep..

[ChipJohns]

Once, after I had gone like 56 hours without sleep, we were practicing and I just remember waking up and I was playing along with the rest of the band. I have no idea how long I was in a\this semi-unconscious state, but, when I came to I was playing but really wasn't sure what song we were doing at first... It was a pretty wild feeling.

Does this count..? @:-O

[JPW]

Well, you can remember a song, but not able to play it. It's like knowing the words in a poem but not be able to pronounce them correctly. So playing it will achieve both. Of course if you are technically really skilled already, you don't have to really put that much effort in the physical execution of it all. But for most beginner to advanced player there are also physical things to learn in most songs. Of course it also depends greatly on what genre(s) you are playing. Some are simpler and more monotonous than others. (and I'm not saying that it correlates how good the music is either)

[Boomka]

It might work, it might not. You have only a good night's sleep to lose if it doesn't.

That said, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that our brains are most receptive to new information in the morning. So you'd probably be better to get up early and spend some quality time listening and memorizing the piece before you head off for your day.

Moreover, there is plenty of evidence that the quality of attention paid to something effects how well we remember it. This is the basis of mnemonic techniques which help improve short and long-term memory. The more senses one can get involved in the act of remembering - and the more fully those senses can be experienced - the more likely it will be that a strong and lasting imprint can be made and recalled later.

Essentially we need to be more "awake" than what we usually call being "awake" to learn at our best. So, rather than go for easy subsitutes to good practice, why not try to make your practice sessions MORE intense? And I don't mean from a physical standpoint, but from a mental/concentration standpoint. Try to put everything out of your mind and really listen to the tune you're trying to learn. If you can incorporate listening very intently and the use of visual input (like a transcription, chart or tabs) even better. If you can listen, read and play it all at once, even better. That way, there are more bits of information for your brain to recall and paste together into a "memory" when you need it.

Repetition is also key. Once you get a snippet of a tune that you're trying to learn in your head, sing it as much as you can. Sing it along with the track as you listen. Sing it out loud, sing it in your head and imagine yourself playing it, whistle it while you walk, hum it while you do the dishes. Basically, if I can use a rough analogy - the more times you walk over the same path, the more likely you are to know all the twists and turns. The same goes for our brains.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Quick question, before I try it tonight - does listening to a song on repeat, while you're asleep, help with memorization?

That was two days ago.....so how did it go? Did you wake up ripping the song out like you've been playin' it 10 years now or what?

It's clear there's mixed thoughts on this. You're the only test subject we've got. Any feedback?

[double_G]

i have never tried this, but i read this article a while back (Lucid Dreaming) & had no idea this was even possible. It's from Tim Ferriss' blog (author of 4 hour work week & other motivational / self help stuff) called "Lucid Dreaming: A Beginner’s Guide". i think there are enough references & links there if you really want to pursue this tech.

+ http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/09/21/how-to-lucid-dream/

i guess i am more interested in letting my brain rest / heal up / learn normally than anything else w/ sleep. my wife is really into brain books lately (we are both musicians) and was reading this section about music where if you worked on a piece the day before (even right before bed) it would ALWAYS be much better on performance night the next day vs. working on the piece the same day as performance night. something like 30% better at a minimum. the interesting thing was that your brain almost "defrags" as you sleep, working on the newest stuff (the piece you shedded the night before) so that the next day the pathways to that knowledge are the most efficient / speedy they can be. i think this was from "your brain on music" book. check amazon.

[JPW]

It might work, it might not. You have only a good night's sleep to lose if it doesn't.

That said, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that our brains are most receptive to new information in the morning. So you'd probably be better to get up early and spend some quality time listening and memorizing the piece before you head off for your day.

Moreover, there is plenty of evidence that the quality of attention paid to something effects how well we remember it. This is the basis of mnemonic techniques which help improve short and long-term memory. The more senses one can get involved in the act of remembering - and the more fully those senses can be experienced - the more likely it will be that a strong and lasting imprint can be made and recalled later.

Essentially we need to be more "awake" than what we usually call being "awake" to learn at our best. So, rather than go for easy subsitutes to good practice, why not try to make your practice sessions MORE intense? And I don't mean from a physical standpoint, but from a mental/concentration standpoint. Try to put everything out of your mind and really listen to the tune you're trying to learn. If you can incorporate listening very intently and the use of visual input (like a transcription, chart or tabs) even better. If you can listen, read and play it all at once, even better. That way, there are more bits of information for your brain to recall and paste together into a "memory" when you need it.

Repetition is also key. Once you get a snippet of a tune that you're trying to learn in your head, sing it as much as you can. Sing it along with the track as you listen. Sing it out loud, sing it in your head and imagine yourself playing it, whistle it while you walk, hum it while you do the dishes. Basically, if I can use a rough analogy - the more times you walk over the same path, the more likely you are to know all the twists and turns. The same goes for our brains.

Great advice there. People are always trying to find a way to work less with their brains while the correct answer here is to make it more intense for the mind.

1. focus
2. repetition
3. sleep

That's the pattern for learning.

And as you mentioned memory imprints one should also realize that also feelings you are feeling in the moment are imprinted, and surroundings. Everything. So you should practice even if you don't like the idea at the moment, even if you are sad or scared because that way you can play in any situation and not only when you are completely emotionally comfortable. Only playing when you are happy and everything is golden is a way to become a diva. =)

[theindian]

Yeah, it can't hurt. I used to sleep to Morbid Angel records when I was learing how to blast and play double kick. I guess I thought that it would help me subconsciously. I don't know whether it had any real effect on my playing but I was amazed that I could train myself to sleep to loud metal music. Especially being a light sleeper.