Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

[K.Howden]

Hi all, how is everyone?

I know there must be a million and one threads of Ride technique but this one is a little more specfic. I'm currently studying Drumset at BIMM (Brighton Institute of Modern Music) and one of our modules is Jazz.

Now today my Teacher (Preston Prince) told me that my technique on the Ride is good but I could get better results out of it if I played with my Thumb on top. I'm a player who uses a lot of Finger and very loose yet controlled grip, we sat down for a while and figured out where to take it and he seemed fairly certain I'd best suit a Max Roach style grip; Thumb not quite atop the Stick but just slightly to the side. The problem was; I was letting my Thumb not dangle as such but, I wasn't exactly involving it in any major way with my technique.

What I'm after is some kind of visual source where I can get a good view of Max's grip, in order to just compare and get a clear picture of it in my mind. I've looked on Youtube but there are suprsingly few vids of him up there and even then there are non where he's really playing the Ride.

So! I know there are MANY knowledgeable people on this Forum and I was hoping somone would be able to point me in the right direction of sourcing this material. Any help would be greatly appreciated, I'm not one of these players who is obessed with having 'the perfect technique' I mereley want to acheive the best technique for me as an individual.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev

[donv]

This isn't Max, but John Riley and it might help:

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/johnrileyuptemporide.html

[con struct]

This isn't Max, but John Riley and it might help:

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/johnrileyuptemporide.html

Hah! Thanks for that. He's so good, ain't he? I'm going to have some fun with that little drop-stroke lesson.

[K.Howden]

This isn't Max, but John Riley and it might help:

http://drummerworld.com/Videos/johnrileyuptemporide.html

Great video, that's pretty much what I've been using or certain mechanics of, we've been taught more of a "Wrist-Throw-Wrist" type motion in order to get those Crochets (Quarter Notes) singing. The Grip and placement of the Fingers is what I'm more focused on, it felt really comfortable with the Roach way that my Teacher got me using. In essence I just want to get a direct visual referece of Max to compare and solidify my approach.

Thank you very much however for taking the time to help, and I will be working on that Technique.

Kindest regards,

Kev

[Steamer]

Watch very carefully the relaxed fluid actions and motions of the hand,wrist and fingers combined with the folcrum grip all working in unison together as seen in these up-tempo swing playing clips in context by another of the great masters on the subject Tony Williams.

At tempo in context:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDu6w66F5dU

Slow-mo of same clip:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5pT9200HPs&feature=related

[con struct]

I don't know about trying to emulate the way Max Roach played, because he's not you and you're not him. Max Roach's hands aren't your hands.

What's important is that you know what you want to play, you know how it's supposed to sound. You'll find it, trust me, you'll find it, and it'll be your way, because we all have different bodies and arms and legs.

Be comfortable, that's the primary thing. If you're nice and loose and feeling good then you'll be just fine.

[K.Howden]

Fantastic! I'm going to spend tommoro Afternoon studying that and working on it. Would I be right in saying he's using Up-strokes too after crashing the Ride aswell?

I love the fluidity of his technique, unfortunatley he makes it looks a lot easier than it is! But that's the trusty Metronome is for I guess. I seem to be able to get my Ride pattern going to about 90 BPM fluidly but would you suggest 60 might be a good startig point for this? or maybe even slower than that perhaps?

I might add that my primary goal is to get my skip-notes as quiet as possible and the Quarter notes as accented as I possibly can. All the Jazz Drummers I've listened to thus far and really enjoy have all had a really strong Quarter-note running through them, Jimmy Cobb really exemplifies this for me amonst others.

Kindest regards,

Kev

[K.Howden]

I don't know about trying to emulate the way Max Roach played, because he's not you and you're not him. Max Roach's hands aren't your hands.

What's important is that you know what you want to play, you know how it's supposed to sound. You'll find it, trust me, you'll find it, and it'll be your way, because we all have different bodies and arms and legs.

Be comfortable, that's the primary thing. If you're nice and loose and feeling good then you'll be just fine.

Absolutley, I'm not trying to emulate Max exactly, I'm just looking for some kind of reference point to start with and then adapt it from there. The whole reason for this is that my Teacher told me that Max didn't exactly have a 'Thumb-on-top' type grip as they're teaching at BIMM and it'll give me a good marker as to what he see's (and what I feel) would be more suitable for my Body.

Hope you're well,

Kev

edit: thank you for the sincerity of your post too, I've had nothing but positivity from Thread and I think that says alot about this Community and the Drumming Community as a whole, I'm extremely happy to in this little nook of Internet Land!

[Steamer]

Would I be right in saying he's using Up-strokes too after crashing the Ride aswell?

I love the fluidity of his technique, it unfortunatley he makes it looks a lot easier than it is! But that's what the trusty Metronome is for I guess. I seem to be able to get my Ride pattern going to about 90 BPM fluidly but would you suggest 60 would be a good start for this, or maybe even slower than that perhaps?

Kindest regards,

Kev

Yes Kev on point #1.

Take your time and no rush. I spend a great deal of time working on and later using the Tony ride swing approach in actual musical applications for some 25 years now after I first got a real clear handle on it. Didn't happen overnight believe me. Bob Moses showed me some great pointers and ways of approaching it in the flesh that sure helped with the process back in the early 80's.

You have to start slow making sure all the elements are first in place and up the tempo slowly but surely over time making sure not to overly tense up well focusing on getting a good swing sound at the same time out of the ride cymbal.

Have fun!

[K.Howden]

Oh, I'm all up for starting slow. Patience is something that is essential of course and it's a Mantra I stick by when learning anything new, sure it might take Months or even Years to get something down but it's a small portion of Time when you consider you can be a Musician for your whole life! I know Drummers who have no patience when it comes to learning new Technique and sure, they might be able to play it fast and it might even sound clean! but! there's a certain sound of 'authority' that comes from learning some slow and well and really gaining a true understanding of what it is you are doing.

Thank you again for the help,

Kev

[Steamer]

Oh, I'm all up for starting slow. Patience is something that is essential of course and it's a Mantra I stick by when learning anything new, sure it might take Months or even Years to get something down but it's a small portion of Time when you consider you can be a Musician for your whole life! I know Drummers who have no patience when it comes to learning new Technique and sure, they might be able to play it fast and it might even sound clean! but! there's a certain sound of 'authority' that comes from learning some slow and well and really gaining a true understanding of what it is you are doing.

Thank you again for the help,

Kev

You're welcome and you've got the right idea and mindset on approaching it Kev.

All the best!

[donv]

He's so good, ain't he?

Yes he is. I envy the dynamic range he can achieve with such light touch. That's my nemesis on a kit.

[Steamer]

Here's an example of the relaxed approach to playing up-tempo swing phrasing in a actual musical context Kev that I got from my time spent on the subject with Bob Moses for reference in this original with a local acoustic jazz quartet. Bob's approach is about ultilizing more movement of the hand/wrist in the application of the swing phrasing and ride patterns which you'll see me adding into the mix in the clip.

Notice the fluid relaxed approach to playing swing and the several phrasing variations of the ride pattern at this tempo. The more relaxed you get with all the physical elements in place at this and even faster tempos the more it has a positive effect on the general loose flowing quality of the swing feel within the music. If you tense up the ride "feel" within the group context gets affected greater. That's why I say get the fundamentals in place first and slowly work up the tempo over time. Hold it where it feels comforable before it tightens up. Back it off if you tense up and bring it down where you're more relaxed then back up again when feeling more loose {hand/wrist/fingers/arm} to execute the pattern at a consectutive even faster tempo. Takes time.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S588Ya_14&feature=channel

[K.Howden]

Thank you for that Stan.

It's a strange analogy to make but what I'm seeing I liken to when you balance a long Pole on your Finger-Tip, in that; it seems like the balance point of the Stick is acting like or is indeed the center of Gravity and as you're executing the various Strokes, the Hands, Wrists and Arms are moving and shifting in order to follow the movement of this center of Gravity, keeping it at that crucial Grip/Balance point where the Stick can move with most ease and at it's freeist.Would this be a fair analysis?
As for the function of the Fingers what I'm getting from watching the Video is that their purpose is to "tickle the rebound" as I like to say and importantly to manipulate the Stick on axis with it's length and therefore creating Seesaw motion around the balance-point/center of Gravity.

I've been practicing this a little during the Morning and I've found that if I hold the Stick just a small fraction further back than I usually do, I'm getting a much better Dynamic from the Strokes.

Hope you're well Stan and fantastic playing by the way!

Kev

[Steamer]

Thank you for that Stan.

It's a strange analogy to make but what I'm seeing I liken to when you balance a long Pole on your Finger-Tip, in that; it seems like the balance point of the Stick is acting like or is indeed the center of Gravity and as you're executing the various Strokes, the Hands, Wrists and Arms are moving and shifting in order to follow the movement of this center of Gravity, keeping it at that crucial Grip/Balance point where the Stick can move with most ease and at it's freeist.Would this be a fair analysis?
As for the function of the Fingers what I'm getting from watching the Video is that their purpose is to "tickle the rebound" as I like to say and importantly to manipulate the Stick on axis with it's length and therefore creating Seesaw motion around the balance-point/center of Gravity.

I've been practicing this a little during the Morning and I've found that if I hold the Stick just a small fraction further back than I usually do, I'm getting a much better Dynamic from the Strokes.

Hope you're well Stan and fantastic playing by the way!

Kev


Thanks Kev and very good observations. You're well on track.....

How far you hold the stick back is KEY to the overall sense of balance and "perpetual motion" {in its own way} once applying this approach with all the other elements in the mix in place. If you hold the stick to far forward you cut off the natural sense of balance and the "teeter totter" motion of the stick in the folcrum grip in the hand and importantly how the fingers and wrist respond in their own contributions to the complete effect in application.

The slow-mo Tony clip I provided really helps show this very relaxed yet highly dynamic "perpetual motion" effect of playing the ride cymbal at a faster tempo too.

[BigSteve]

Guys I'm loving this! Thanks for all the great videos to check out. Steamer...great playing! and nice catch on the stick at 5:34! Very nice.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

to add a little to the John Riley angle: in his video he doesn't tell the full story, but he did to me when he taught me this technique: his hand position is index-thumb juxtaposed, but he doesn't apply ANY pressure with his index! This is important to how the technique feels to play. He explained it by saying he thinks of only the thumb holding the stick, and the stick being stuck to the thumb with a piece of gum. Obviously no gum was present, nor is it physically possible to hold the stick with your thumb on top of the stick, but that is the sensation. This, and the completely loose index really helped my ride playing!

Casper

[Steamer]

Guys I'm loving this! Thanks for all the great videos to check out. Steamer...great playing! and nice catch on the stick at 5:34! Very nice.

Thanks Steve :} Did you see the guitar player laugh at the quick recovery..........

If I find a good clip of Max with right camera angle i'll post that into the discussion too.

[Steamer]

to add a little to the John Riley angle: in his video he doesn't tell the full story, but he did to me when he taught me this technique: his hand position is index-thumb juxtaposed, but he doesn't apply ANY pressure with his index! This is important to how the technique feels to play. He explained it by saying he thinks of only the thumb holding the stick, and the stick being stuck to the thumb with a piece of gum. Obviously no gum was present, nor is it physically possible to hold the stick with your thumb on top of the stick, but that is the sensation. This, and the completely loose index really helped my ride playing!

Casper


Yes indeed Casper. You can only cover so much of the finer points on the internet but video clips sure can help if you study them carefully.

Having one on one with a great teacher like John or other folks like Bob as I mentioned who are very well versed in the complete approach that can go into much greater detail in the flesh is the best way to go ultimately in my view.

[Steamer]

You were right Kev YouTube was a bust on actual in performance video clips of Max.

B to the rescue once again from our very own Max Roach DW archive footage. Super burning Max that gives you some fleeting glimpses of his ride approach. More wrist/hand based like Bob Moses.

Saw this group a few times live. Enjoy this SMOKING track regardless of the few good camera shots available for study purposes:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/maxroachsession.html

[dairyairman]

one thing my drum teacher taught me that's helped and that you can see tony doing in that slo-mo video is to close in with your back fingers a little and lift your wrist as you play the "lang" part of the "spang-a-lang". then you kind of loosely whip it down for the next "spang". it's almost a moeller type of thing. you don't need to hang onto the stick tightly at all.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

one thing my drum teacher taught me that's helped and that you can see tony doing in that slo-mo video is to close in with your back fingers a little and lift your wrist as you play the "lang" part of the "spang-a-lang". then you kind of loosely whip it down for the next "spang". it's almost a moeller type of thing. you don't need to hang onto the stick tightly at all.

Interesting. I must study Tony's approach. It's different from what John teaches in that he allows the stick to push the back fingers open, while still on the stick, on the down stroke, that is, on 2 and 4. When his hand is open like this, the thumb is on top of the stick, and middle, ring and pinky are cradling it. The index is just resting on it.

Another tip he gave me was to make the grip a little longer, to get "leverage" for the closing of the hand, i.e. the ability to produce a stronger accent.

I don't find this movement, at least as taught by John, to resemble Moeller very much, in that there is no whip motion. To me, it is more a push-pull motion.

Casper

[davidr]

I lived in Brighton last year and I can give you the best tip you'll get on this: go and see my old drum teacher Pat Garvey (http://www.patgarveydrums.com/) for a lesson. The method you use to play the ride in jazz is VERY DIFFERENT to rock. It's all about the quarter note, thumb on top, opening your hand up for the lope note and snapping it closed for the quarter, as well as swinging with the elbow going side to side slightly. Basically, Pat's teacing will do wonders for this aspect of your technique.

[K.Howden]

I lived in Brighton last year and I can give you the best tip you'll get on this: go and see my old drum teacher Pat Garvey (http://www.patgarveydrums.com/) for a lesson. The method you use to play the ride in jazz is VERY DIFFERENT to rock. It's all about the quarter note, thumb on top, opening your hand up for the lope note and snapping it closed for the quarter, as well as swinging with the elbow going side to side slightly. Basically, Pat's teacing will do wonders for this aspect of your technique.

Pat is my 'Styles and Techniques' Teacher at BIMM, co-incidetally that's my first lesson today (9am - 12 Noon) and yes! he is an amazing Teacher!

My Ride technique is quite good at the minute, we have Jazz every Friday 1.30pm - 3pm and we always refer back to keeping that strong quarter note going, fact is I like to use Straight Quarters, Shuffle and Swing Time in combination to create more dynamic and to change up the whole fluidity of it. My aim with this Thread is to actually ammend and consolidate my technique regarding the Jazz/Swing Time as it is at the minute and take it upon myself to be more pro-active with the material we're being given during lessons.

I'll check back into the Thread to share my thoughts on the marvellous material that Stan and others have provided and a progress report on how I'm getting on with it.

Hope you're all well,

Kev

[Addickmek]

Im not really a fan of the music or composition, but its exectued well The singer has a great voice and I love the dynamic shifts, especially when you drop down quiet onto the ride cymbal.

[Steamer]

Im not really a fan of the music or composition, but its exectued well The singer has a great voice and I love the dynamic shifts, especially when you drop down quiet onto the ride cymbal.


I think you posted this in the wrong thread...........????

No singer or singer related tunes in this puppy or the subject at hand..................


Keep us updated for sure Kev :}

[K.Howden]

Hello to Stan and everyone else who has contributed to the Thread so far!

I've been practicing my Jazz every day since I originally started this Thread and I feel like I'm making some headway with it. I have filmed a couple of clips of me grooving with some Jazz-Time I've only been playing Jazz for 8 Weeks so you have to bear in mind that my feel will not that great at all. That said I am going to post a couple of Videos as I feel that critique is my best friend at the moment, I'm not realistically going to get anywhere with it unless people such as yourselves are able to identify exactly what it is I need to work on (and trust me I have many ideas myself on this).

So here goes! Hope this video isn't to obtrusivley bad! The quality isn't great as it was shot on my Phone. but hey! It's the only means to the end I have at this present time. A quick note to add is that althought you can't see it I am using a Throw-Catch type motion with fingers on the skip-notes, the idea of this is more to show where I'm at with my Jazz overall.

Kev

p.s. apologies in advance if I offend anyones Ears with this!

[Steamer]

Hello to Stan and everyone else who has contributed to the Thread so far!

I've been practicing my Jazz every day since I originally started this Thread and I feel like I'm making some headway with it. I have filmed a couple of clips of me grooving with some Jazz-Time I've only been playing Jazz for 8 Weeks so you have to bear in mind that my feel will not that great at all. That said I am going to post a couple of Videos as I feel that critique is my best friend at the moment, I'm not realistically going to get anywhere with it unless people such as yourselves are able to identify exactly what it is I need to work on (and trust me I have many ideas myself on this).

So here goes! Hope this video isn't to obtrusivley bad! The quality isn't great as it was shot on my Phone. but hey! It's the only means to the end I have at this present time. A quick note to add is that althought you can't see it I am using a Throw-Catch type motion with fingers on the skip-notes, the idea of this is more to show where I'm add with my Jazz overall.

Kev

p.s. apologies in advance if I offend anyones Ears with this!

Okay i'll offer a few comments based on the 2 clips Kev.......

First off at only 8 weeks you're doing good. If I can get a bit more critical I have a couple of things I noticed I want to focus on to help you along in the process. First on the list is feather the bass drum, play it MUCH quieter The pulse under should be felt but not "as" heard in this out of context of the music samples. In context when feathering the pulse it's more felt and only heard when the bass drum is used more for dynamic punctuation {syncopation} points brought and combined into the overall mix. Let the ride sit more on top of the feel as the indicator of the feel and the bass drum offering some VERY quiet under-support of the pulse instead for the ride swing feel.

Next up be careful that everything lines up flat so to let {give} the time/groove feel the sense of not wandering all over the place which is happening at the moment based on what I heard. Remember EVEN TEMPO FLOW regardless of it's swing cymbal time, fill, whatever. Line the limb patterns up flat and don't speed up or slow down. Concentrate carefully on this holding any given tempo in place for a good while doing focused practicing. If you can achieve this without a metronome all the better because you will start to learn by ear to internalize the pulse which is the approach used by most pro level jazz players.

Last ask you teacher to give you some bass drum exercises and phrases that take the bass drum away from the steady pulse and focused on some syncopated patterns and hits well you play a steady unmoving ride/hat swing feel. This will help too in tying it all together down the road

Good luck and keep on moving ahead Kev!

[K.Howden]

Thank you Stan, my Teacher brought up the feathering of the Bass Drum up today with me coincidetally so I'll work on that. In terms on timing and lining everything up I've felt myself that I need to work on this, I'm going to pick up a Metronome next Week and focus on that whole area.

Something I feel is important, looking back at the video is that I need to focus just on the very basics...no fills or wider orchestration around the set. I get the feeling also that I'm try to run before I can walk, so what I'm going to do is spend a week or two just practicing Ride, Hats and Bass Drum. When I feel like I've improved on this I'll add in the comping and so on and so forth.

I'll make sure to post new Videos every Friday so I can check back with you as well as my Teacher on my progress if that's okay with you. I think that having as many opinions as possible is always a good thing.

Hope you're well and kindest regards,

Kev

p.s. I'll also try and get an up-close of my Ride technique.

[Steamer]

Thank you Stan, my Teacher brought up the feathering of the Bass Drum up today with me coincidetally so I'll work on that. In terms on timing and lining everything up I've felt myself that I need to work on this, I'm going to pick up a Metronome next Week and focus on that whole area.

Something I feel is important, looking back at the video is that I need to focus just on the very basics...no fills or wider orchestration around the set. I get the feeling also that I'm try to run before I can walk, so what I'm going to do is spend a week or two just practicing Ride, Hats and Bass Drum. When I feel like I've improved on this I'll add in the comping and so on and so forth.

I'll make sure to post new Videos every Friday so I can check back with you as well as my Teacher on my progress if that's okay with you. I think that having as many opinions as possible is always a good thing.

Hope you're well and kindest regards,

Kev

p.s. I'll also try and get an up-close of my Ride technique.

Take your time Kev and just learn to walk before you run. I was going to suggest breaking it right down and focusing on the basics primarily.

Remember a metronome or better yet a critical tuned ear alone which is my preferred method for acoustic jazz playing in the long run to achieving the internal sense of pulse will both help. Playing along to jazz records helps too :}

Keep us updated and certainly i'll offer some more pointers from new clips.

[K.Howden]

Hi Stan after taking on board your pointers for me, I've been working on accuracy today and have devised this little excercise:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2587/4121979659_dd9425d08a_o.jpg

You pedal the Hi-hat on beats; One, Two, Three and Four whilst playing the Jazz-Time pattern over it on the Hi-Hats. When done accuratley the Stick should be falling on a Closed Hi-Hat everytime and there should be no hisses or chokes, as the Hands and Feet should be totally lined up.
A supplementery to this is the then add the Bass Drum on beats; One, Two, Three, and Four aswell ensuring that everything in lining up on the pulse.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev

[Steamer]

Hi Stan after taking on board your pointers for me, I've been working on accuracy today and have devised this little excercise:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2587/4121979659_dd9425d08a_o.jpg

You pedal the Hi-hat on beats; One, Two, Three and Four whilst playing the Jazz-Time pattern over it on the Hi-Hats. When done accuratley the Stick should be falling on a Closed Hi-Hat everytime and there should be no hisses or chokes, as the Hands and Feet should be totally lined up.
A supplementery to this is the then add the Bass Drum on beats; One, Two, Three, and Four aswell ensuring that everything in lining up on the pulse.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev

Sure Kev. That works into the concept that Tony brought to the jazz drumming table of giving the HH the steady time function well the ride feel was free to imply variations of the swing pattern on top well the bass drum is both feathered and punctuates mixed in with all those lovely grace note patterns on the snare. That's for later my friend.... :}

Right now you want to keep the flow even and most importantly the placement of the swung notes into the ride pattern. You're little exercise you came up with today will certainly help with both lining everything up flat and with keeping a evenly played steady pulse per given tempo

[Boomka]

Hi Stan after taking on board your pointers for me, I've been working on accuracy today and have devised this little excercise:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2587/4121979659_dd9425d08a_o.jpg

You pedal the Hi-hat on beats; One, Two, Three and Four whilst playing the Jazz-Time pattern over it on the Hi-Hats. When done accuratley the Stick should be falling on a Closed Hi-Hat everytime and there should be no hisses or chokes, as the Hands and Feet should be totally lined up.
A supplementery to this is the then add the Bass Drum on beats; One, Two, Three, and Four aswell ensuring that everything in lining up on the pulse.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev

Another trick for getting everything lined up is to practice your Ride pattern on the Hihats, opening the Hats on 1&3 and closing on 2&4. It's very easy to hear the difference between flamming the notes and playing them flat that way.

As far as your clips are concerned, if that's 8 weeks of work, I agree you're doing well. But if you'll permit me a suggestion: if you're going to focus on real "basics" you need to focus on the articulation of the swing pattern. Not only do we need to listen and think carefully about where we place swung notes -- i.e. 16th notes, triplets, etc...-- but about the relative emphasis we give to notes in swung patterns. Listening to your clips, I think you'd get more forward motion if you dropped the volume of your "skip beats" somewhat and let the quarter notes dominate.

[sciomako]

to add a little to the John Riley angle: in his video he doesn't tell the full story, but he did to me when he taught me this technique: his hand position is index-thumb juxtaposed, but he doesn't apply ANY pressure with his index! This is important to how the technique feels to play. He explained it by saying he thinks of only the thumb holding the stick, and the stick being stuck to the thumb with a piece of gum. Obviously no gum was present, nor is it physically possible to hold the stick with your thumb on top of the stick, but that is the sensation. This, and the completely loose index really helped my ride playing!

Casper,

At slow tempo, I can see the hit on "2" is a wrist stroke, the hit on the skip beat is a finger stroke and the hit on "3" is an upstroke with fingers. Am I right?

[davidr]

Hey Kev,

Based on your videos I would say slow way down. To get the correct motion for the skip not you want to start with 70bpm, which will feel very slow but you need to get the quarter notes even and the skip note as quiet as possible. Even though you wont necessarily end up playing the skip note as quietly later on, it is essential to get the movement that plays the note. This movement is actually done by playing the ride french grip (thumb on top) and letting go of all but your thumb and forefinger while raising your hand so that the stick falls forward to tap the cymbal, before you whip your hand back down and closed to play the quarter note.

By playing this way, the skip note effectively takes care of itself, since it is done in preperation for the quarter note stroke, allowing you to keep the quarter notes solid. I'll post a video of this technique soon because it's hard to explain in words, but hopefully I've cleared it up a little.

[Boomka]

You call 70 BPM slow? That's a sprint where I come from... :)

You're absolutely spot on with the bit about the technique. That's essentially how I play, though the way I worked on it was to actually release the thumb a tiny bit and really let the stick drop. That and the quarter is then achieved not just by throwing the hand (which is a big movement) but by snapping the hand shut as if rolling a bill in your hand. I can still hear Jim Blackley urging, "don't be afraid to drop it!"

[K.Howden]

Hey Kev,

Based on your videos I would say slow way down. To get the correct motion for the skip not you want to start with 70bpm, which will feel very slow but you need to get the quarter notes even and the skip note as quiet as possible. Even though you wont necessarily end up playing the skip note as quietly later on, it is essential to get the movement that plays the note. This movement is actually done by playing the ride french grip (thumb on top) and letting go of all but your thumb and forefinger while raising your hand so that the stick falls forward to tap the cymbal, before you whip your hand back down and closed to play the quarter note.

By playing this way, the skip note effectively takes care of itself, since it is done in preperation for the quarter note stroke, allowing you to keep the quarter notes solid. I'll post a video of this technique soon because it's hard to explain in words, but hopefully I've cleared it up a little.

That video was more an overall demo to show where my co-ordination is. I'm working soley on the Ride technique and accuracy aswell. I'm practicing it at around 65-70bpm. As I described in the original post, my Teacher came to the conclusion French Grip was just something that wasn't happening for me but I've got a grip that is working for me, it's just a case of practice.

Thank you for the input non-the-less, hope you're well,

Kev

[davidr]

Fair enough, everyone has a different approach. When I first learnt this method it felt seriously twisted and unnatural but I personally recommend persisting for a few months (it takes a degree of faith), but at the end of the day its your call. I think the most important thing is knowing how it should sound and getting that result. Once it all starts coming together levels wise you stop hearing the individual instruments and get a kind of organic whole where you can change the overall sound with slight adjustments to your different limbs, then you're in business. Keep us posted...

[davidr]

For anyone who wants to see the method I recommend, check out this video I made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqbRqBra_I

[donv]

For what it's worth, another way to play what you're doing is to use a push pull stroke. With this stroke, you can do the same thing, but easily switch the accents. For myself anyway, at any kind of speed, that's easier said then done with the drop stroke.

[wy yung]

The method you use to play the ride in jazz is VERY DIFFERENT to rock. It's all about the quarter note, thumb on top, opening your hand up for the lope note and snapping it closed for the quarter, as well as swinging with the elbow going side to side slightly.

Virgil always mentions that this is what Philly told him.

Great stuff here already.

[Boomka]

For anyone who wants to see the method I recommend, check out this video I made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcuKQCh5qf0

Looks like a Bob Armstrong special.... :)

It's very similar to what I learned from Blackley, too.

[davidr]

The udated URL for the video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqbRqBra_I

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Casper,

At slow tempo, I can see the hit on "2" is a wrist stroke, the hit on the skip beat is a finger stroke and the hit on "3" is an upstroke with fingers. Am I right?

John Riley told me to play it as two movements, so on 2, you push down, the stick forces the fingers out. Now, you pull it up. During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2. You can vary the intensity of the skip note.

During all there is no pressure on the index, it is just resting on the stick. I have really liked this approach, I noticed I was able to play relaxed at faster speeds.

Ari Hoenig has a totally different technique, which I will tell you about later, and there are others. One that didn't work so well was the one I invented myself a long time ago. I recommend studying this with a master, just makes life SO much easier.

Casper

[curiousnomad]

If you study (and watch) lots of great drummers you will see that there is not one "right way" to play jazz time. That means both physically and musically. Compare Tony and Elvin- so different in the physical approach and the end result.

One thing they all have in common is that they have come up with a physical technique that allows themselves to express their interpretation of time, flow, feel, etc. Look at videos, whether it be Max, Elvin, Tony, Roy, Jack or younger players like Blade, Harland, Bill Stewart, Rodney Green, Ari Hoenig, etc. Their time and physical appearance is all different, but it is their unique thing. Whatever they do works, because the music sounds good and they are asked to play with great musicians.

That said, there are definitely things that you can't do. Your motions should be fluid and smooth involving the wrist, arm, and fingers. There should be a fine balance in the volume of all notes played (not an equal volume). The balance varies by player. Elvin is triplet oriented with more emphasis on the up beats, the third note of the triplet, and 'floats"more. Jimmy Cobb lays into the quarter note more. They all play with a relaxed motion for the most part, whether they play behind the beat, ahead of the beat, or dead center.

By understanding the great players individual conception of time and watching them, you can find what works for you.

But as was stated before- if you are just starting the concept is very different from rock. You cannot just "muscle" the time in jazz. The time is played with an acoustic bass generally, which has a swinging flowing bass line. That is what you lock into, not a punchy, loud electric bass. Your ride cymbal feel needs to work with that.

[sciomako]

During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2.


Casper,

Two notes, the skip note and 3, are played during the "pull". The bit I'm uncertain about is what drives the hit on 3. I gave this approach a try the other day. It seems the hit on 3 was done by the combination of a drop of the wrist together with the closing of the fingers. Does it sound right?

[brittc89]

Im really confused by this thread. A lot of terms getting thrown out that are confusing me. I would say listen to your favorite players and find something that works for you, that feels right. DOnt do anything thats gonna hurt yourself, but theres something to be said about finding your own way to do things.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Casper,

Two notes, the skip note and 3, are played during the "pull". The bit I'm uncertain about is what drives the hit on 3. I gave this approach a try the other day. It seems the hit on 3 was done by the combination of a drop of the wrist together with the closing of the fingers. Does it sound right?

100% accurate, a perfect way of saying it!
Good job!
Casper

[Boomka]

Im really confused by this thread. A lot of terms getting thrown out that are confusing me. I would say listen to your favorite players and find something that works for you, that feels right. DOnt do anything thats gonna hurt yourself, but theres something to be said about finding your own way to do things.

There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but it's good council to start with a sharp knife...

[K.Howden]

If you study (and watch)
But as was stated before- if you are just starting the concept is very different from rock. You cannot just "muscle" the time in jazz. The time is played with an acoustic bass generally, which has a swinging flowing bass line. That is what you lock into, not a punchy, loud electric bass. Your ride cymbal feel needs to work with that.

I've never really used just muscle in my playing, I've always been one for using my Fingers and Wrist more than anything. I'm working on this and I am gaining results...slowly, but that doesn't concern me, it's gonna take as long as it takes so to speak.

Regards,

Kev

[brittc89]

There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but it's good council to start with a sharp knife...

Its good council to sharpen it youself to make sure its sharp, not trust someone else to deal with your very individual and unique knife.

[Boomka]

Its good council to sharpen it youself to make sure its sharp, not trust someone else to deal with your very individual and unique knife.

And where do you learn to sharpen it? Do you simply grind away at a whole bunch of knives, ruining them in the process, and hope to figure it out eventually? Why not head down to the local expert and watch him do what he does and ask a few questions?

There are a number of great "self taught" players out there. There are even MORE great players who sought out help from the best teachers they could find. A great teacher is able to help with a variety of students with different needs. A good teacher doesn't have only one approach, they help you to find yours...

Heck, the OP of this thread started the topic because his teacher believes that the most common technique is not right for his "individual and unique" self.

[brittc89]

And where do you learn to sharpen it? Do you simply grind away at a whole bunch of knives, ruining them in the process, and hope to figure it out eventually? Why not head down to the local expert and watch him do what he does and ask a few questions?

There are a number of great "self taught" players out there. There are even MORE great players who sought out help from the best teachers they could find. A great teacher is able to help with a variety of students with different needs. A good teacher doesn't have only one approach, they help you to find yours...

Heck, the OP of this thread started the topic because his teacher believes that the most common technique is not right for his "individual and unique" self.

So people post youtube videos? This is the apprentice system weve come to. You honestly think virtual John Riley can assess this problem. Im sure if he was in a room with John Riley this would be no issue. I just feel like weve entered the hyper technique phase of drumming, where everyone takes this youtube Moeller stroke/Push pull/ everything else and just does it. THis isnt the way I learned. Its not the way Tony Williams used to learn going to Alan Dawson.

So what was your suggestion? Get the best teacher you can find? I would say this is the answer as well. BUt find something that works. A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.

[K.Howden]

A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.

I don't know if this is aimed at me but either way I must step in here. Personally speaking I'm not looking for instant gratification I've stated many times in this thread that I'm am going to be patient with this and do it right...and as for doing a little searching and "using my own Brain" that's what I'm doing. If I'm not well versed in something, in this case Jazz, then I'll use my Brain and seek the advice/knowledge of people who are well versed, it's called common sense if I am not mistake?

Using my own initiative comes in how I choose to use the infromation I'm given, analysing whether the way I'm using the information and whether I need to adjust or consolidate the way I'm using it.

Either way we've seen what was perfectly pleasant Thread that myself and others were enjoying be tarnished by you making it personal. My advice would be to ditch the self-important attitude and if you don't like the Thread don't read it...simple as. If you want to debate how people are learning and your particular grievences with it, then start your own by all means, but don't barge your way into what is in my opnion an: infrormative, friendly and constructive discussion.

Without malice,

Kev

[brittc89]

Im not making anything personal. Nothing was directed at you. I was saying in general. Im done here. Yet again, people have no need for opinions here. Only the answers they want to hear.

[Steamer]

I don't get the change of tone myself Kev either............


You asked some questions and posted some samples of your playing at this point in time to evaluate and you got some good advice coming from some differing points of view to think over and try for yourself. A few posted video clips here too as reference to see well known examples of application and also some personal examples from people {myself included} with actual years of experience and credibility on the subject as both players and educators on the subject to use as visual study points to get you started in the right direction and approach. A few also suggested a good one on one teacher away from the net is the best course of action at this point for you. Certainly worked for me early on in this game as I indicated combined with developing my own individual approach over time to it.

Don't see the need for a dust up on the subject myself since music and advice isn't a competition sport............

[K.Howden]

Im not making anything personal. Nothing was directed at you. I was saying in general. Im done here. Yet again, people have no need for opinions here. Only the answers they want to hear.

Well it seemed that way reading your post so I apologise, you are completley right in that regard though...opinions are what I asked for and opinions are what I'm getting so I'd best to embrace them.

Hope you're well and thanks for the kick up the arse!

Kev

[Steamer]

So people post youtube videos? This is the apprentice system weve come to. You honestly think virtual John Riley can assess this problem. Im sure if he was in a room with John Riley this would be no issue. I just feel like weve entered the hyper technique phase of drumming, where everyone takes this youtube Moeller stroke/Push pull/ everything else and just does it. THis isnt the way I learned. Its not the way Tony Williams used to learn going to Alan Dawson.

So what was your suggestion? Get the best teacher you can find? I would say this is the answer as well. BUt find something that works. A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.


Like I say Britt I didn't get that vibe from Kev AT ALL. He sounds pretty open to getting some input from various folks at this point in time to take it to the next level of understanding. Kev didn't ONCE suggest he was after the instant gratification approach to the subject he was asking about.

Just telling it the way I see it......

[sciomako]

John Riley told me to play it as two movements, so on 2, you push down, the stick forces the fingers out. Now, you pull it up. During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2. You can vary the intensity of the skip note.

During all there is no pressure on the index, it is just resting on the stick. I have really liked this approach, I noticed I was able to play relaxed at faster speeds.

(K.Howden, I hope you don't mind I hijack your thread.)

I've been practicing John Riley's ride technique for a few days. I have to say learning new mechanics like this is very frustrating. Riley's approach makes me hit the downbeats softer than the skip notes. This by itself isn't an issue. It may even be a desirable articulation. But it messed with my brain and my timing was everywhere. My body kept on thinking the now accented skip notes were the downbeats and, as a result, played the actual downbeats too late. If I slowed it down and played with a metronome with a lot of concentration, it went ok. But whenever I played with a backing track, my body went on auto-pilot and all my downbeats were late.

This is very frustrating. But I can see why this approach will allow me to play up-tempo easier. I think what I need is keep working on it with a lot of patience...

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

........................ Riley's approach makes me hit the downbeats softer than the skip notes. This by itself isn't an issue. ...

Two things come to mind reading this
1) the Riley ride technique is essentially a push pull technique, and this means that it can be, and is for you, awkward to hear the "pull" on the downbeat. This was a challenge for me too as I have not spent a lot of time on push pull before this. However, with practice, it feels great, and to watch Riley do it at 280 BPM while saying in his characteristic drone "...and I can do this aaaalll daaayy", with no pretense, like he was telling you milk is white. That should give you courage. I love that man...

2) you might want to work on your wrists separately first, or in parallel, maybe just doing some half strokes or something...

Hope this helps,
Casper

[sciomako]

Thanks Casper..............

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Thanks Casper..............

you are SO welcome :-)
Casper

[sciomako]

I noticed at slow and moderate tempos many drummers move their right arms in and out sideway while they are riding. Here is an example (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/tommyigoejazzswing.html) of Tommy Igoe. (But when he demo'd uptempo here (http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/tommyigoe79fasttemposurvival.html), the arm movement was no longer there and it looks more like Riley's open/close.) I read that this helps to maintain the space between the notes.

I've never done this. I maintain the space by the height of the stick. I'm wondering if this is something I should work on too.