Vinnie: Yamaha to Gretsch

[RobertM]

Anyone know why Vinnie Colaiuta left Yamaha for Gretsch?

[Monica McCoy]

The same reason athletes switch teams: Money.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

That Great Gretsch Sound...then money.

[Artstar]

Anyone know why Vinnie Colaiuta left Yamaha for Gretsch?

Hey Robert M. Did you decide on a "jazz" kit yet?

[Les Ismore]

Anyone know why Vinnie Colaiuta left Yamaha for Gretsch?

Well.... its said Vinnie always recorded with Gretsch, even while he was with Yamaha. He switched to Gretsch in 93'

Maybe not on this vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbsPF5jBR6U), but in this series of 5 Freddy hits on the Vinnie endorsement story.

You'll learn a ton about Gretsch drums from the horses mouth if you watch these 5 vids, a 'must see' for any Gretsch lover like myself.

Edit: So, the Vinnie endoresement story is @ 3:00 of the 4th video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhA07NvmLcg)

[drumtechdad]

The dirty little secret is that once the famous drummer walks in the studio door, he uses what he and the producer like best. I'd be willing to bet that more recordings have been made on Gretsch and Ludwig drums (throw in Ludwig Supra snares) than all the other brands combined, regardless of what the drummer endorses. More Remo coated ambassadors than any other brand, too--again, regardless of endorsements.

Money is a factor, but not the only one. Tama loses endorsers every year because when the artist is on the road and needs a part he can't get anyone to answer the phone. With more and more bands actually making their living from road shows rather than recordings, support is key.

Endorsements have very little meaning to the rest of us.

[RobertM]

Drumtechdad,

Interesting. So, does Tama have a bad reputation for customer service? I've heard OK things about Yamaha and that Pearl has great service, but I have heard some chatter about Tama being inflexible when it comes to customer wants and needs.

[audiotech]

I've heard both pros and cons concerning Tamas customer service. For me I had two experiences with their service and both times it was well above that of the negative comments I've heard. A year and a half ago I needed another 22" bass drum logo head for my Starclassic bubinga kit. My five star drum shop told me that it wasn't available since the heads were installed in Japan before the drums are shipped. I personally got a hold of Tama in Bensalem, PA and the head was sent to the drum shop. Total turn around time was two days until I had it in my hands. My second experience was when I was looking to obtain an 8" x 7" tom for my bubinga kit. It usually takes over 90 days to have one made and shipped to the US. Tama customer service found out that I was looking for one and contacted me with information that they already had one in stock in the finish I was looking for. They shipped it to my drum shop and I had it in my hands three days after I found out that they had one available.

My Five Star shop does an incredible amount of business with Tama and has a great relationship with the company. I truely believe it is mostly the middle man that creates most of the delays in the customer service departments.

Dennis

[Aeolian]

When I bought my Renown's from GC, the memory locks were missing from the rack toms. I took them off the floor tom to get by. I went to several specialty shops including the local 5 Star and nobody had them. I wrote to the customer service at Gretsch asking how I could order some. Couple of days later they wrote back asking for my address and I had replacements in my mailbox a few days after.

I heard that when Vinnie went to Ronnie Scott's to record with Jeff Beck, Gretsch couldn't get him a signature set from any nearby stock. So he went to a local music store and brought back a set of Renowns for the gig.

[SickRick]

The same reason athletes switch teams: Money.

So which source do you have to back this statement up?

Links please.

[Naigewron]

The same reason athletes switch teams: Money.

Do you actually have inside information, or are you just slandering the name of a respected artist?

Very, very few artists get paid to endorse their companies (as far as I know, not even guys like Joey Jordison, Terry Bozzio or Mike Portnoy get a dime for their endorsements, and these guys help their respective companies sell massive amounts of gear simply). What they may make a little money on is signature products, but I think even that's pretty rare.

Switches can be for a number of reasons:
- Product quality
- Artist relations
- Product availability when touring
- Free gear versus artist discounts
- and so on
We're rarely told why an artist switches, simply because he/she has no interest in speaking negatively about the other company.

[drumtechdad]

Drumtechdad,

Interesting. So, does Tama have a bad reputation for customer service? I've heard OK things about Yamaha and that Pearl has great service, but I have heard some chatter about Tama being inflexible when it comes to customer wants and needs.

Bear in mind, I'm not talking about "customer service" as it applies to you and me. I'm talking about professional road support for touring artists. It's one of the reasons name-brand artists prefer one company over another. For all I know Tama may have excellent service for regular folk.

Tama, of course, makes fabulous drums. So it's not all about the drums. And I'm sure not everyone touring with Tama drums has had a bad experience. But they do have a rep in that regard, and I've heard it (not just one story, either) from those in a position to know.

Other companies, such as Pearl, have the opposite rep: they answer the phone, and I know of multiple instances where Pearl artists got the parts they needed shipped overnight, ready for the next night's show.

I'd like to point out that neither of those situations has much relevance for you and me.

Generally speaking, there are a lot of misconceptions about endorsements.

For example, some have mentioned money as a reason to switch endorsements, but I'd be very surprised if there're any artists out there who actually get a check for endorsing a given brand--it's just not how it's done. Usually, for top-drawer artists, they get free drums. They may get a kit for the US leg of the tour and another stored in Europe for that leg. They also get the pick of the litter: they go to the factory and pick out what they want. They can mix and match, even get custom features. Top-drawer Zildjian artists, for example, usually get to go to the factory and hand select their cymbals from the cream of the crop.

Lesser endorsers often don't even get free stuff, they only get a discount. They're still buying the drums/cymbals.

For the freebies, the companies are entitled to use the artists' images in their ads and often require artist availability for photoshoots. They may also expect artists to do clinics for them. The degree of obligation can be a factor in an artist deciding for or against any given company.

And it's often the case--perhaps more often than not--that artists work endorsement deals with companies whose products they would use anyway, without the endorsement, simply because they like the products.

My only point was that endorsements often have more to do with issues other than the sound of the drums. And that once the artist goes through that studio door, all bets are off.

[Artstar]

Speaking in Yamaha's defense, I will say that I have always thought the "drummer secretly uses Gretsch in the studio" thing to be a little overblown. Not that it did'nt happen or still does'nt happen, but maybe for different reasons.

I love Gretsch drums, but sound-wise, they don't just blow my mind into outer space. They sound really good though. I've owned really old first generation Yamaha 9000's that were easily on the same level, if not more powerful. Yes, really.

[Skitch]

Anyone know why Vinnie Colaiuta left Yamaha for Gretsch?

Here is the skinny as to what I heard:


First, it is pretty much a fact that drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta and Jeff Porcaro recorded using Gretsch drums, regardless of what company they appeared in Modern Drummer to be endorsing.

If you watch the Sting video, Soul Cages live, one thing sticks out to drummers: the bass drum says “Yamaha” but all of the drums are Gretsch. There was also an ad in Modern Drummer about the same time featuring Vinnie for the Drum KAT. The photo was taken with the same kit. The lugs on the drums are Gretsch. So there may have been some mounting friction between Vinnie and Yamaha at this point.

Then there was Vinnie’s endorsement of DW bass drum pedals. This was a sore point with DW, having Vinnie Colauita in a DW ad. Apparently, along the time of the Mercury Falling tour for Sting, Yamaha was coming down on Vinnie pretty hard about endorsing only Yamaha gear and no more mysterious drum kits with competitor’s lugs. This all came to a head the week before Sting (and Vinnie) were to appear on Saturday Night Live in support of the Mercury Falling disc. Rumor has it the Vinnie said “Enough.” He called Manny’s and asked them what Gretsch kits they had in stock. Manny’s delivered the white one that appeared on the show. This was rumored to be Vinnie’s hand wave good by to Yamaha.


Mike

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[Skitch]

The same reason athletes switch teams: Money.

Nope....you guys need to get only for money stuff out of your heads! You rely on it as a pat answer way to often!

Mike

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[Skitch]

The dirty little secret is that once the famous drummer walks in the studio door, he uses what he and the producer like best. I'd be willing to bet that more recordings have been made on Gretsch and Ludwig drums (throw in Ludwig Supra snares) than all the other brands combined, regardless of what the drummer endorses. More Remo coated ambassadors than any other brand, too--again, regardless of endorsements.

Money is a factor, but not the only one. Tama loses endorsers every year because when the artist is on the road and needs a part he can't get anyone to answer the phone. With more and more bands actually making their living from road shows rather than recordings, support is key.

Endorsements have very little meaning to the rest of us.

And I would not take your bet because you are absolutley right on the money. Part of getting the recording gigs is making everyone else feel comfortable. And when the producer is comfortable with what is already set up and miked and ready to go. why change just because of ego! I also like to see what everyone else is doing anyway!

Also, although Steve Gadd endorses Remo, I have heard the heads on the toms on the song, Aja, were Evans Hydraulics not the ones offered by Evans these days but the old Dodge City Kansas version with the white cermic hoops.


Mike

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[Skitch]

Do you actually have inside information, or are you just slandering the name of a respected artist?

Very, very few artists get paid to endorse their companies (as far as I know, not even guys like Joey Jordison, Terry Bozzio or Mike Portnoy get a dime for their endorsements, and these guys help their respective companies sell massive amounts of gear simply). What they may make a little money on is signature products, but I think even that's pretty rare.

Switches can be for a number of reasons:
- Product quality
- Artist relations
- Product availability when touring
- Free gear versus artist discounts
- and so on
We're rarely told why an artist switches, simply because he/she has no interest in speaking negatively about the other company.

All the reasons you cited are very valid. Yamaha is having a crisis at the moment because they let a well-liked artist rep go and the artists are jumping ship.

Mike

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[Skitch]

I've heard both pros and cons concerning Tamas customer service. For me I had two experiences with their service and both times it was well above that of the negative comments I've heard. A year and a half ago I needed another 22" bass drum logo head for my Starclassic bubinga kit. My five star drum shop told me that it wasn't available since the heads were installed in Japan before the drums are shipped. I personally got a hold of Tama in Bensalem, PA and the head was sent to the drum shop. Total turn around time was two days until I had it in my hands. My second experience was when I was looking to obtain an 8" x 7" tom for my bubinga kit. It usually takes over 90 days to have one made and shipped to the US. Tama customer service found out that I was looking for one and contacted me with information that they already had one in stock in the finish I was looking for. They shipped it to my drum shop and I had it in my hands three days after I found out that they had one available.

My Five Star shop does an incredible amount of business with Tama and has a great relationship with the company. I truely believe it is mostly the middle man that creates most of the delays in the customer service departments.

Dennis

I wanted to weigh in on this and it will be the last of my five posts in a row; Dale's drum shop is excellent. Tama's relations with artists and customers sucks badly. I played Tama for nearly a decade and the only thing they want to hear from you is your check hitting their bank!


Mike

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[DrumEatDrum]

Here is the skinny as to what I heard:


First, it is pretty much a fact that drummers like Vinnie Colaiuta and Jeff Porcaro recorded using Gretsch drums, regardless of what company they appeared in Modern Drummer to be endorsing.

If you watch the Sting video, Soul Cages live, one thing sticks out to drummers: the bass drum says “Yamaha” but all of the drums are Gretsch. There was also an ad in Modern Drummer about the same time featuring Vinnie for the Drum KAT. The photo was taken with the same kit. The lugs on the drums are Gretsch. So there may have been some mounting friction between Vinnie and Yamaha at this point.

Then there was Vinnie’s endorsement of DW bass drum pedals. This was a sore point with DW, having Vinnie Colauita in a DW ad. Apparently, along the time of the Mercury Falling tour for Sting, Yamaha was coming down on Vinnie pretty hard about endorsing only Yamaha gear and no more mysterious drum kits with competitor’s lugs. This all came to a head the week before Sting (and Vinnie) were to appear on Saturday Night Live in support of the Mercury Falling disc. Rumor has it the Vinnie said “Enough.” He called Manny’s and asked them what Gretsch kits they had in stock. Manny’s delivered the white one that appeared on the show. This was rumored to be Vinnie’s hand wave good by to Yamaha.

That makes more sense, and more on line with what I've heard.

You are right in your other posts, too. Most endorsers are not paid for their endorsements. (although on very, very rare occasions, some are). Although it is common for a company to guarantee $x amount of pay for x amount of clinics per year, but that is still not a direct payment for just the endorsements.

Changes usually have to do with the relationship with people in the company, or other business reasons.

As for what anyone uses in the studio, most of these guys aren't showing up to sessions with their drum kit in the car. A cartage company brings in the a kit for them, either one they store for the drummer, or what ever the producer has requested, or maybe something completely different if it's agreed that is what fits the session.

[drumtechdad]

Speaking in Yamaha's defense, I will say that I have always thought the "drummer secretly uses Gretsch in the studio" thing to be a little overblown. Not that it did'nt happen or still does'nt happen, but maybe for different reasons.

I love Gretsch drums, but sound-wise, they don't just blow my mind into outer space. They sound really good though. I've owned really old first generation Yamaha 9000's that were easily on the same level, if not more powerful. Yes, really.

I think you miss the point a little bit. No one is saying that big name drummers use Gretsch in the studio because they "blow away" the competition. Many companies make fabulous drums. And in most cases, artists sign endorsement deals with drum companies whose products they like and want to play.

The primary reason Gretsch--and I think we have to throw Ludwig 3-plys in here, too, along with Supra snare drums--is used so often in the studio is that it is a known sound, not a better sound. They record well, lots of studios have them all set up, and when a guy is recording the same kit five days a week, the prospect of an "unknown" kit showing up means maybe a whole day of just getting a drum sound. So the main reason is time and money, which of course amount to the same thing.

Same deal with heads: more recordings (in any genre of music you can name) are done on Remo coated ambassadors than any other because they are a known quantity, regardless of what the artist may use or prefer. Using them means you don't have to try six different mics and twirl knobs for four hours trying to get the sound you want. Known quantity.

[mikeg]

Also, although Steve Gadd endorses Remo, I have heard the heads on the toms on the song, Aja, were Evans Hydraulics not the ones offered by Evans these days but the old Dodge City Kansas version with the white cermic hoops.



Sorry off topic, but wow, that jogged an old memory :) One of the bands I was in played a two week engagement in Dodge City during the summer of 1978. While there, I visited the Evans factory and purchased those very heads and a cast-bronze Evans logo belt buckle. I still have the buckle after all these years.

[Artstar]

The primary reason Gretsch--and I think we have to throw Ludwig 3-plys in here, too, along with Supra snare drums--is used so often in the studio is that it is a known sound, not a better sound. They record well, lots of studios have them all set up, and when a guy is recording the same kit five days a week, the prospect of an "unknown" kit showing up means maybe a whole day of just getting a drum sound.
.

I don't know where you are getting your info from. Gretsch and Ludwig 3 ply used so often? Maybe like a LONG time ago, but i will put my guess against your guess, that most studios are using, DW's and something like a Starclassic Maple and one of the many Yamaha models. I know Gretsch are still there, but my guess, is not as common as these others.

[MusiQmaN]

I can only say: Recording Custom "the most recorded Sound for decades"

Its not like they got this name for nothing ;)

[Skitch]

I think you miss the point a little bit. No one is saying that big name drummers use Gretsch in the studio because they "blow away" the competition. Many companies make fabulous drums. And in most cases, artists sign endorsement deals with drum companies whose products they like and want to play.

The primary reason Gretsch--and I think we have to throw Ludwig 3-plys in here, too, along with Supra snare drums--is used so often in the studio is that it is a known sound, not a better sound. They record well, lots of studios have them all set up, and when a guy is recording the same kit five days a week, the prospect of an "unknown" kit showing up means maybe a whole day of just getting a drum sound. So the main reason is time and money, which of course amount to the same thing.

Same deal with heads: more recordings (in any genre of music you can name) are done on Remo coated ambassadors than any other because they are a known quantity, regardless of what the artist may use or prefer. Using them means you don't have to try six different mics and twirl knobs for four hours trying to get the sound you want. Known quantity.

"Known' is the big thing here and yes, this reinforces what I said ealrier about playing what everyone is already comfortable with. The mystery kit showing up for the sesion can mean just exactly what you said, a day spent getting a drum sound or tracking down a problem.


Mike

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[Skitch]

Sorry off topic, but wow, that jogged an old memory :) One of the bands I was in played a two week engagement in Dodge City during the summer of 1978. While there, I visited the Evans factory and purchased those very heads and a cast-bronze Evans logo belt buckle. I still have the buckle after all these years.

Snap a picture of it for us! What you still don't the same heads?

Mike

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[Skitch]

I can only say: Recording Custom "the most recorded Sound for decades"

Its not like they got this name for nothing ;)

Well, it could be because it is a marketing ploy to help sell drums. What I am saying is that by claiming in the series itself as being a "recording" drum, this helps imply that "you too can be a bigger success in the studio just by using (buying) these drums!" They aren't bad drums at all; they are excellent and I would love to have a set. But just because the word recording is used in the trademarking doesn't mean that they are the only drums for that purpose. Would it mean that you could only use Tour Customs on Tour? Or club date drums only in clubs? The Recording Customs were previously called the 9000 series or the 900 series. Yamaha had another line called either the 7000 or the 700 and the lugs were different than the 900 series.

Mike

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[MusiQmaN]

it wasn'rt my intention to say that the name means that it's purpose is to be used solely as recording drums.

What I intended to say was that they are in fact one of the most recorded/rental drums (in the 80's-90's era, can't see if that's the same in the 00's for recording purposes) because of it characteristics.

And it wouldn't surprise me if they where named "recording Custom'' after they saw that birch kits (like the 9000 series) where used so frequently in the studio's.

[DrumEatDrum]

I don't know where you are getting your info from. Gretsch and Ludwig 3 ply used so often? Maybe like a LONG time ago, but i will put my guess against your guess, that most studios are using, DW's and something like a Starclassic Maple and one of the many Yamaha models. I know Gretsch are still there, but my guess, is not as common as these others.

No doubt DW's and Yamaha Recording customs get used a lot, but it's not like all those Gretch kits fell apart or got tossed. I'm sure they are still in inventory ready to rented for sessions, and still do.

Anyone who has scene the documentary about Metallica making the black album saw Lars use a rented Gretch set, and he recently admitted in Modern Drummer he rents the same kit every time he goes into the studio. So if it's sitting around for him to rent, it's probably getting rented by others in the mean time.

Many drummers have admitted in interviews they rented a vintage Gretch or Ludwig kit for a specific session or a specific song. If a company like Drum Doctors or S.I.R. went through the trouble of getting a vintage drum kit for rentals, they certainly didn't get rid of that vintage kit.

As for Yamaha, yes, I know they get rented out too. I knew a guy who got signed a major label. He played Ludwig, but the producer insisted they rent Yamaha toms.

[mikeg]

Snap a picture of it for us! What you still don't the same heads?

Mike

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Here ya go... http://www.outawhack.net/evans_bb.jpg

Funny you should ask about those heads. No I'm not using the ones I bought in Dodge City, but I am using the blue Evans Hydraulic heads on my Ludwig Centennial kit. I tried many different heads (ambassador, Studio X, etc) and with the combination of the maple and suspension mounts, I was getting too much sustain. With the hard maple shells, the oil filled heads give a nice round sound (not dead) and I still have plenty of projection.

[Artstar]

Anyone who has scene the documentary about Metallica making the black album saw Lars use a rented Gretch set, and he recently admitted in Modern Drummer he rents the same kit every time he goes into the studio. So if it's sitting around for him to rent, it's probably getting rented by others in the mean time.


He only used the full Gretsch kit on the Black album, and everything thereafter, he only uses the kicks, but the toms have been Starclassic Maple.

[DangerousDave]

Tama really seems to be losing a lot of endorsers :/
On the other hand, does anyone know what's the deal with Mapex? Their artist relations, waiting time for ordered drums and stuff?

[jonescrusher]

Tama really seems to be losing a lot of endorsers :/
On the other hand, does anyone know what's the deal with Mapex? Their artist relations, waiting time for ordered drums and stuff?


Very confusing thread resurrection! The rumour is that Vinnie's left Gretsch at the moment, took me a while to work out I was reading a 3 year old thread.

[DangerousDave]

Very confusing thread resurrection! The rumour is that Vinnie's left Gretsch at the moment, took me a while to work out I was reading a 3 year old thread.

I wanted to weigh in on this and it will be the last of my five posts in a row; Dale's drum shop is excellent. Tama's relations with artists and customers sucks badly. I played Tama for nearly a decade and the only thing they want to hear from you is your check hitting their bank!

Sorry for the confusion. I was reading this post related to Tama artist and customers relations.

[Skulmoski]

Endorsements have very little meaning to the rest of us.

+1

I bought Gretsch because of their sound and performance.

GJS

[reassert]

Very confusing thread resurrection! The rumour is that Vinnie's left Gretsch at the moment, took me a while to work out I was reading a 3 year old thread.

It's true.

http://www.vinniecolaiuta.com/links.aspx

There's no external link of Gretsch Drums.

http://www.gretschdrums.com/?fa=artists

There's no Vinnie's name in the artist list.

[Thaard]

Noooooooo!
Is he going back to Yammies or what?

[RobertM]

Wow, I didn't realize that Vinnie left Gretsch. When I originally posted this query, is was dealing with Vinnie's earlier departure from Yamaha to Gretsch. But if you look at the Gretsch website, it's true: no Vinnie signature kit, and his name is not among the list of "current endorsers."

Wonder what he's using now?

[Dre25]

Anyone who has scene the documentary about Metallica making the black album saw Lars use a rented Gretch set, and he recently admitted in Modern Drummer he rents the same kit every time he goes into the studio. So if it's sitting around for him to rent, it's probably getting rented by others in the mean time.


Sometimes I wonder whether he rented a drummer to play for him.