Another first, I need a sub

[larryace]

Well it's happened. I had to tell my main working band that I couldn't make a 3 gigs (my other band, who works very infrequently, grabbed one of the dates, the other 2 dates I'm out of the country on vacation). It would be the first time I had to say this in 3.5 years...I asked if they knew somebody who would sub. Well they did and I'm a little nervous. They have to rehearse this guy a couple times to get him up to speed. It's kind of like telling your wife, "Hey babe, I can't make love with you for a few nights, can you get a replacement?" Nobody's expendible.....I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall to see how good this guy does. I should hire a spy to secretly record it...

[razorx]

Well hopefully they can find someone to fill in for you that will do a "good" job as opposed to the "great" job that you do. Is your band a cover band or an all originals band?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Can relate to this Larry. I've had to do it several times over the years and can tell you I felt exactly the same way initially. It can leave you feeling a shade anxious without a doubt. I shouldn't have been.

I can only speak for myself, but I never lost a job due to missing gigs and having a replacement help out. The guys in the band would often comment on how good it was or how much fun they had with the fill in. But it was never done in a way that left me feeling inadequate and in fear of my job.

I know it's means 'taking a leap of faith', so to speak and I do remember the lingering concerns I had the first few times I 'gave up my spot', but I think you should enjoy your three weeks off and try to view it as allowing someone to help you out/do you a favour as opposed to seeing it as direct competition.

Ringo himself had these same concerns when he was ill and couldn't tour Australia. They toured on with a replacement and I've seen him interviewed saying he had the same feelings about someone filling in as you do now. My guess is it would happen to many.

Enjoy your other gig and trip away mate. I'm sure everything will be fine. After all, you are Larry'ACE'.......who'd give that up???

[larryace]

PFOG, you really are quite the charmer. Thanks for the encouraging words. What I'm hoping to hear when it's all over with is...."OMG it was a disaster, we're so glad to have you back". But I know these guys, and even if he did suck, they would never give me that satisfaction. They would feel superior if I felt uneasy about it, because that's just the way they think. They are of the mindset that drummers are 2nd class citizens and I'm lucky that they "allow" me to join them.

I know when it's all over with that they will go on and on about how well it went, just to make me squirm. I can hear it now, "Yea it was like he's been playing with us for years" and "So and so played this song this way, do you think you can do it like that?" I'm definitely expecting the worst.

I'll let you know how it goes down....

[mcbike]

I'm terrified of subs. I know because I landed a few long time gigs off of subbing. I'm not trying to scare you. It helps if you can make friends with lots of drummers so you can suggest a sub when the time comes though. I also have found that there are alot of drummers out there, and alot of them are even better than me, but not a whole lot of people are ready to do all the work that I do. Or they aren't available for touring, or can't quit their day job.

It is a terrible feeling though because I do feel like I can't ever miss a gig and I know if I ask for a weekend off the other guys are essentially out of a job unless they get a sub. I was in the hospital once and missed a gig and they did it without me and had a sub lined up for the next day, I made it to the gig and played all drugged up. I had alot of fun!

[Pollyanna]

I'm having surgery 4 days before a gig is due in Dec. The doc reckons I'll be out of action between one and three weeks. The bassist emailed to say he wasn't sure whether to call in his drummer from an old band to fill in as a show of solidarity to me. He's a very nice guy. We're a nice band lol

I said it was fine and he should feel free to call the drummer. Then, at the last rehearsal our bassist tells everyone that this guy is a super-quick learner and only needs one listen to get things right. I asked if he'd be ok with our low volumes. No probs.

OMG, I'm being replaced by Steve Gadd!

But no, apparently he's not good with brushes which are used in about half of the band's set. Apparently he has plastic brushes (evil! evil! evil!). I may yet need to give the guy brush lessons. Really, how can a good player not hear how horrible plastic brushes are? Makes me wonder about his ear.

Actually I am really looking forward to seeing him play the songs at rehearsal. Who knows what fresh ideas he'll have for me to borrow? (ie. steal :). No insecurities here because our singer and I are best friends and he's our star performer. It's not what you know ... hehehe

Even if that wasn't the case, if he was great and I was replaced then the band would sound better (good for them) and I would be a free agent to try something new and exciting.

Larry, can you ask the guys to record the gigs with the other drummer? Hearing your band with another drummer is a great opportunity to contextualise what you're doing and pick up new ideas.

Even if he's great and you're given the bum's rush you can analyse what the differences are and you'll be a better drummer for your next band. See if you can make this a win-win.

[larryace]

I'm not asking the band to record, besides, they never record themselves. (I do it every gig)I'm gonna play it as Mr. Security. I don't want to put on a worried front, just a quiet confidence. And hey, if they replace me with him (I really don't think they would do that to me) then what am I gonna do? I'll tell you what I'm gonna do. I'll be giving the guys a huge dose of my verbal wrath with a freshly sharpened tongue for blindsiding me, because they would have that coming to them, and who am I to deny them their just desserts?

But I don't think it will come to that, it's just that I've never had to go through this thought process before, and am just expecting some slap in the face comparisons.
His 1st gig is 11/28 so after that is done, I'll tell you what went down. The other 2 gigs he's doing are 12/ 18 and 19.

I hope your surgery goes swimmingly Polly, I'll send good thoughts your way.
And let the guy use plastic brushes he he

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Larry. All good thoughts gratefully accepted :)

Thing is, a new player has to tick a lot of boxes to make it worth a band's while to replace an incumbent. After all, playing is only part of the equation. Then there's teamwork. And personal/musical chemistry. Musical preferences. Flexibility - personal and musical. Availability. Enthusiasm. Plus organisational/technical contributions.

No sense taking on a monster who turns out to be a monster in more ways than one. Or maybe it's more a matter that incumbents get replaced in these situations when they don't tick those boxes rather than the newcomer checking the boxes? From what I can tell, you tick the musicianship, teamwork, musical taste and ethusiasm boxes. Only you know how it is with the other issues.

Your relationship analogy is close to the mark. If we're happy with our current partners do we immediately drop them because someone cuter crosses our paths? Usually not. Most people have an "If it ain't broke ..." approach in relationship situations - be it personal or bands - because it's less risky, less hassle and kinder.

[larryace]

You paint the best pictures. Tick boxes. Not check boxes, tick boxes. And you're right about the "if it aint broke" and the "incumbant' analogy. Incumbant. Another perfect choice of words. I tell you, you should write a book, you have a gift of painting the proverbial picture. (What would an adverbial picture be?)
And yes, I am thinking worst case scenerio, I can't help it ha ha...
It is what it will be and I trust that whatever goes down, it was meant to be that way. If I get canned (worst case scenario) I'll just see it as "future positioning"
Whatever actually happens, if it actually takes place, is meant to be, end of discussion, and I easily accept that.


Speaking of things ending, I just found out that I lost my oldest and best and dearest friend. He died in his sleep, last night, the night of his birthday. As of now, no one knows how he died. What a shock...

[Pollyanna]

Wow Larry. Massive blow *sigh*. Really sorry to hear that.

We're at that age when this stuff happens. I lost a friend earlier this year and my big sister got cancer. On the plus side, dying in your sleep is probably the best way to go. That's how Mum went. We should be so lucky, eh?

I used to try being a writer but 1) I got bored through lack of interaction 2) I need others to help the ideas to flow (like here) and 3) it takes too long and I get bored.

So you poor bastards have to wade through Polly's little DrummerWorld novellas instead hehehe

If the guys can you, all I can say is the new guy would need to be one helluva drummer. Either that or have a day job as A&R guy for a major label.

Take care

P

[alparrott]

I have had a lot of "sub" moments as a church praise band drummer, because I do take weeks off every now and again. Usually these are not like "can't make it this weekend" reasons for me, so much as "I just played ten services in a row, I need a weekend off" reasons. So I do go to church and get to see someone else playing the songs I normally pay, and even on the kit I usually play them on. And sometimes it's not great, but I try and remember how I started out, and how much I've grown in my playing since then, and try to be supportive.

The other major "sub" moment I can relate to concerns my old band, which I had to leave due to a job relocation out of state. I have stayed connected with them, ad they have worked through a succession of drummers, most recently recording an EP with the latest drummer, as well as a series of videos with some of the other drummers which they post online. This is even a little weirder, because these drummers are playing some of the songs I wrote drum parts for and recorded on CDs, and of course they are doing quite different things than I would play. The band is doing well, and have even been approached for the possibility of a recording contract, but I know in my heart of hearts they'd take me back in a moment. We were not just a band, but also the best of friends, and worked exceedingly well together, with no real ego problems or work ethic issues. We were all hungry, motivated, and fun-loving guys, and it was awesome.

Also, Larry, I'm sorry to hear of your loss, and I hope you are doing okay.

[PQleyR]

I have no idea how I'd feel about this, because now I come to think of it I have never been replaced for even one gig, despite having filled in for other people on many many occasions on drums, bass and guitar...hmm. Maybe there just aren't many musicians around here.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I know when it's all over with that they will go on and on about how well it went, just to make me squirm. I can hear it now, "Yea it was like he's been playing with us for years" and "So and so played this song this way, do you think you can do it like that?" I'm definitely expecting the worst.

I'll let you know how it goes down....

But I don't think it will come to that, it's just that I've never had to go through this thought process before, and am just expecting some slap in the face comparisons.

I should have mentioned, there was no shortage of this sort of reaction when I was 'subbed out' either. However, the ability to mercilessly slag off one's mates well past the point of actual insult, is well ingrained in the Aussie psyche.......I took it as this rather than any 'real' negative comments toward me. As stated, I never lost a job to a fill in, so I'm sure I was right. I should also add, that I've filled in for others a few times. I was thanked, paid and asked if I could help out again if they ever needed it, but I was never offered someone else's job either.

Just be ready for some quick witted retorts about why this "superstar drummer would have no wish to join you bunch of amatuers" etc. At least your time off should give you some time to think up a few!!

I'm sure you'll be fine Larry. I'll look forward to your post after the first gig to find out how it all went.

Sympathies on the loss of your friend too.

[wy yung]

Speaking of things ending, I just found out that I lost my oldest and best and dearest friend. He died in his sleep, last night, the night of his birthday. As of now, no one knows how he died. What a shock...

Oh mate, I am so sorry to hear this.

[caddywumpus]

I feel the same way. However, I've actually had "the talk" with my groups: does it count against me if I can't make a gig and need to get a sub? Where do I stand if it turns out they like the sub better? Etc. etc... As it turns out, the guys in my groups are really respectful and respectable guys, and they see the band as "a unit" until a member decides for one reason or another that it's time to leave. Even if they like the sub's playing "better", they realize that it probably has to do with the novelty of playing with someone new, and if they dig his playing, then they know who to try to get to sub for me first the next time...

[JT1]

PFOG, you really are quite the charmer. Thanks for the encouraging words. What I'm hoping to hear when it's all over with is...."OMG it was a disaster, we're so glad to have you back". But I know these guys, and even if he did suck, they would never give me that satisfaction. They would feel superior if I felt uneasy about it, because that's just the way they think. They are of the mindset that drummers are 2nd class citizens and I'm lucky that they "allow" me to join them.

I know when it's all over with that they will go on and on about how well it went, just to make me squirm. I can hear it now, "Yea it was like he's been playing with us for years" and "So and so played this song this way, do you think you can do it like that?" I'm definitely expecting the worst.

I'll let you know how it goes down....

Man what is it about some of the musicians you all play with on here? No offence but with a lot of American bands it seems that all of the band members (except the drummers) are fighting for superiority over the band (or so i've read on this forum). I really don't get this. All of the musician that i have played with (in the UK) in a band have been my friends or i became friendly with them and there was none of that bollocks going on. I feel bad for you Larry it should be fun to work with these people and they should make you feel reassured that your position within the band is safe. I think it's disgusting that they would deliberately make you feel uncomfortable. It's probably because you are the most competent out of the lot of them and they are jealous of that fact am i right? Well i hope they get a reality check that the band won't function as well without you. Good luck mate.

[larryace]

Yea, I've encountered some attitudes with some leader figures. It surfaces just enough to remind me of where I sit in the pecking order, the rest of the time, things are fine. It's funny how some people just have to be superior.
Singers are the worst. Then guitarists, then keyboardists. Bass players are pretty cool usually. Haven't decided where horn players fit in.
Just my opinion. It's not all bad though, just maybe 5% of the time.

[Pollyanna]

Hey Larry, what happened with the subbing? I gather no one wanted to replace you.

Last night was our first rehearsal with the drummer who'll be filling in for me when I'm in recovery. At first I wasn't going to turn up but the guys asked me to come along to add backups, percussion and ideas. There is an off chance that I will be able to do those things post-surgery but there's no way I'd be well enough to play kit for a while.

Brian the replacement was a lovely guy and played tastefully. Zero ego. We talked a bit of shop, he let me try out his kit during the break, I helped cue him with the changes and recorded the songs. It was all good. I found it interesting to hear someone else in the stool playing those songs with the band.

At the end our bassist told me I was brave in the way I handled letting someone take my place but I don't see it that way. The goal IMO is to give the audience decent entertainment, whether I'm there on the might or not. Besides, Glenn our singer would go spare if anyone even suggested that I be replaced because I get out of his way when he's singing more than any drummer he's played with :)

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Hey Larry, what happened with the subbing? I gather no one wanted to replace you.


Next week from memory Poll.

How's it going Larry.....sweating yet??? Loosen the belt....clammy palms....a nervous dash to the bathroom perhaps?

Seriously though, don't forget to keep us up to speed. But I do want to reiterate - all will be cool. Enjoy your week off mate!!

[larryace]

The latest update is....

I was wrong in saying that even if the sub sucked, they wouldn't tell me.
He hasn't played any gigs yet (11/28 is his first) but they have been rehearsing him and they told me the truth basically, which is:

I asked how he's working out, expecting the worst, and the bass player (and power figure) in the band ain't happy with his groove....
(Picture me mentally dancing, but not showing it)
They didn't say too much, I didn't press them.
They did say he played Latin really well, not my strongest suit, but we only do one Latin tune.
When it came down to groove patterns apparently he isn't satisfying John, the bass player. John is pretty tough to please. I actually like and respect that about John.
This band is all over the map stylistically, and it took me a while to get the nuances of the songs together. It's not like this guy is filling in for a straight up blues band, we do Soul, R&B, New Orleans, Blues, Country, Rock, Dance, Blues Rock, 1 jazz song, and various and sundry other obscure stuff...

So basically, things seem to be going the way I had hoped, they are not making me feel threatened by this guy, and I actually felt a hint of appreciation at the last rehearsal I had with them. So I'm feeling pretty secure. It's nice to know that you guys are curious about it. Thank you one and all, you guys are just so awesome.

[Pollyanna]

Don't you worry, Larry - the Aussie contingent is keeping track of your situation :)

I found it really interesting to see how another drummer approaches the material and how the others respond or not to to the different approaches.

It's also interesting to see my own reactions. The child in me was thinking all this competitive nonsense like "Aha! I play that song better" and "OMG he can play a Texas shuffle!" while the adult in me is telling the child to shut up because this laid back, pleasant and competent drummer is volunteering his time to help my friends out.

[larryace]

Thanks Polly and all of the rest of my Oz dwelling compadres....
Yea, a situation like this kinda points out where you are maturity wise.
I guess I'm not so high up on the scale ha ha
But again, it's like a relationship where you have to get a replacement husband or wife for a few sexual forays.
You're definitely not pulling for the replacement, unless you really don't give a hoot about the relationship.

[Pollyanna]

Yeah, your analogy is valid IMO

When I wrote "I found it really interesting to see how another drummer approaches the material and how the others respond or not to to the different approaches" I was aware of that element.

That could almost be, "It was really interesting to see how another woman approached making love to my husband and how he responded or not to what she did".

It takes a fair bit of detachment - lol

I feel secure in this musical relationship because friendship plays a big role in my band - it's not at all professional in that sense. So I want Brian to succeed and the guys have a successful gig - which could result in future gigs.

If you're injured before the semis do you want the team to win with your replacement so they have a chance of progressing? Yes, of course!

.... but preferably the team wins with the replacement playing almost as well as you would have done hehehe

[jjmason777]

Larry,

Back in the '80's my band of 3 years blindsided me by telling me I was being replaced by a "much better" drummer! They went on and on about his speed, even his looks and his kit! I was hurt, but did my best not to show it, bit my tongue and just said "good luck", packed up and left. After their first gig with him, they called me back saying that it was a disaster, and they made a big mistake, etc., and would I please come back!

The point is, that you can be replaced, technically, but it's the CHEMISTRY that is very hard to duplicate! The odds that your sub will "feel" better than you with the band are very much against him.

Think about if the shoe was on the other foot. I know it would be awkward for me if I had to sub with a band, and on very short notice, be able to nail all the subtleties and nuances that the regular drummer had worked out over months or years with his band.

Again, the odds are way in your favor. Relax.

Sorry about your friends passing. It must have been one hell of a birthday party.

[Pollyanna]

The point is, that you can be replaced, technically, but it's the CHEMISTRY that is very hard to duplicate! The odds that your sub will "feel" better than you with the band are very much against him.

Think about if the shoe was on the other foot. I know it would be awkward for me if I had to sub with a band, and on very short notice, be able to nail all the subtleties and nuances that the regular drummer had worked out over months or years with his band.

That's true. Still, there is a freshness in a new face, just a as a fresh new partner can impress an older, married man even though she hasn't been working out what makes him tick. Novelty has its own appeal.

One interesting thing I noticed was that my replacement played a lot louder than I do. He's not loud player by any stretch, just that I've been trained to quieten down through the others' reactions and also listening back to recordings where I've been far too loud in the mix.

So everyone loosened their requirements in terms on volume and that resulted in a more lively sound than usual IMO. But if Brian had to tone down to the volume that I play I think it would be much harder for him.

Most times, replacing a drummer with a "faster drummer" is a mistake IMO. "Faster drummer" seemes to be unintended shorthand for "less tasteful and consistent drummer" :)

Jim, the big question is ... did you take your old band back?

[bobdadruma]

When I need a sub I usually pick from a selection of drummers that I sub for when they need one. I have a drummer subbing for me for a gig in a few weeks. I have subbed for him in the past. It's no big deal. My band mates always miss me just as I miss one of them when they can't make a gig.

[jjmason777]

Novelty has its own appeal.

Jim, the big question is ... did you take your old band back?

Right, but then when the novelty wears off, what's left?

I did go back to the band, but not before I did some posturing by saying that I will treat my re-entry into the band like I would treat any new audition. That seemed to have the effect of giving me more respect. I eventually left the band, after the leader (the guitarist) blew some serious chances at the big time by squabbling with our manager over a few dollars of door money after our manager had spent thousands out of his own pocket in studio time and stage gear. He (the guitarist) also replaced our very talented singer with some no-name punk who couldn't carry a tune! That was the last straw for me. I quit. They begged, but it was clear that they were not going anywhere, and they never did. Of course, neither did I, but that's a whole other story!

By the way, Polly, my name is Jeff, not Jim. Sorry for the confusion, but my user name is throwing you off. It's two J's (JJ Mason)

[larryace]

Jeff thanks for the encouraging words. Everything's gonna be fine. Great story too. Nothing satisfies like validation.

[Pollyanna]

Right, but then when the novelty wears off, what's left?

I did go back to the band, but not before I did some posturing by saying that I will treat my re-entry into the band like I would treat any new audition. That seemed to have the effect of giving me more respect. I eventually left the band, after the leader (the guitarist) blew some serious chances at the big time by squabbling with our manager over a few dollars of door money after our manager had spent thousands out of his own pocket in studio time and stage gear. He (the guitarist) also replaced our very talented singer with some no-name punk who couldn't carry a tune! That was the last straw for me. I quit. They begged, but it was clear that they were not going anywhere, and they never did. Of course, neither did I, but that's a whole other story!

By the way, Polly, my name is Jeff, not Jim. Sorry for the confusion, but my user name is throwing you off. It's two J's (JJ Mason)

Yep, when the novelty wears off it's a level playing field.

Bummer about the band. Why would the guitarist replace a good singer with a poor one? Good singers are precious because so many are only so-so.

If the impossible happened and the band replaced me with a sub then I'd just find another band. That's the beauty of being a hobbyist.

Sorry about the name confusion. No idea why I thought you were a Jim. Probably senility.