No twirling or soling - rather be a musician than entertainer

[imispgh]

I really have no desire to twirl or solo. So what makes a drummer? How much of it is musicianship and how much being an entertainer? (I guess the question assumes you play live)

[Skulmoski]

I really have no desire to twirl or solo.

Me too; and this goes doubly so for dancing!

GJS

[Eric]

I can't answer the second question until we agree that music and entertainment are separate entities for some reason, which I don't.

[notfuzzi]

I dunno, to me it seems like you don't have to twirl or solo to be a good musician, but it's part of the fun. Some people don't do it and that's fine, but some people like to have fun with it and even show off a little.

Some of the best guitar players play some awesome licks but don't show off or solo, and some put the guitar behind their head while they solo. To each his own.

As for me personally, I want to twirl and throw the sticks around, but not to the detriment of playing, and if I solo, it's going to be short and sweet. But again, it's all personal preference.

[Average]

OP Please clarify -
Do you have the capability to solo and choose not to? Or have you consciously made a decision not to learn how to solo?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Personally, I try to be both. Although I don't twirl sticks and solos are generally relegated to jam sessions....if I did twirl and solo, I'd never want my showmanship to detract from my playing. But I don't want to be percieved as a 'boring' drummer with no ability to entertain either.

You should have a read of the 'stick twirling' thread. It goes into the 'showmanship vs musicianship' (is that actually a word??) arguement and is much more in depth than just twirling sticks. There's a heap of posts on there listing pro's and con's from people in both camps. It makes for some interesting reading...regardless of which side of the fence you sit.

[nickg]

i never twirled sticks in my life and made a damn good living playing the drums.

[cfrew]

twirling doesn't make you a better musician at all, but when there are 2 sticks in your hand and one of them isn't doing anything, what else are you supposed to do with it? lol.

[Concrete Pete]

Hey,

I'm against twirling, (see my former post about it) but soloing........ hmmm.

MOST good drummers can keep a steady beat, but so can a metronome, your wristwatch, a drum machine, etc., etc., etc.....

I don't know what you have against doing solos, but that's the chance/opportunity drummers have to SHINE... BUILD... CREATE.....ACHIEVE....EXPRESS OUR SOULS.....WOW OUR AUDIENCE... and SHOW YOU'RE NOT LIKE ANY OTHER PERCUSSIONIST!

Wanna ride the highway on 2 wheels? Buy a Honda scooter for $200. Wanna ride all over America, enjoy every second and mile of it, free your very soul, find newfound freedom and happiness? Then cough up the $$$, get a classic Harley, gas up, and RIDE. (get the comparison?)

Wanna keep time and never have to solo? Tambourine...........



That's my 2 cents.
C. P.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

I get your point CP....and totally agree that it's more than being a metronomic drum machine. But there are also plenty of places within music to show off chops and entertain with a few flashy fills etc without the extended solo where the rest of the band fade to black while the drummer has his moment in the sun.

Personally I love a good solo (and I mean a good one....not some punter just doing fast triplets around the kit or feet going at 220bpm), but I'm seldom inclined to partake myself. I always appreciate those who do it and do it well though.

[mrchattr]

First of all, let's clarify something here...you can't define the word musician without stating that it is a form of entertainer. You can't be a musician without being an entertainer, unless all you do is woodshed. As far as stick tricks, etc, I use some, but never sacrifice musicality. The implication in the title is somehow that doing tricks makes you less of a musician, and that's just a joke. A lot of us learned stick tricks as part of learning better control of our sticks, and understanding the subtle nuances of how we use our hands to control sticks. In that case, learning the tricks actually made us better musicians.

As far as the soloing aspect...that's just confusing to me. To me, a musician is someone who expresses themselves through their instrument. The other day, I spent a half hour soloing (in a room by myself, but playing a long drum solo). It was so much better than going to a shrink, or something like that. It's a great way to express yourself, and any musician needs to be able to solo, whether or not they do it live.

[caddywumpus]

Hmm...my take is that you need to do BOTH. You need to be so comfortable with your musicianship and let if flow so you can focus on entertaining. People seeing a live band don't want to just watch a bunch of stiffs with "perfect technique" standing there with expressionless faces. Anything you can do above and beyond that is considered entertaining.

The guitarist walks over to the bassist to quickly mention that they're skipping the next song in the setlist--what do you think 90% of the audience that's watching the band is fixating their gaze on? Yep! You guessed it--the most interesting thing that's happening on stage at that moment! You want to be eye candy as well as ear candy. People want to see a show, not just hear a song (heck, the venue could just play a CD if that were the case).

As far as what the band DOES to be entertaining is up to them. Maybe your frontmen in your band are captivating enough that you don't have to do anything but smile. If so, good for you!

The bottom line is, the more "entertaining" your band is, the more people will remember you, the more venues will hire you, and the more lucrative your band's gigs will be. To stifle that potential because you see it as "one or the other" is pretty self-defeating, IMO.

[The Colonel]

If you can't twirl...then I have no use for you, sir.

[JT1]

If you can't twirl...then I have no use for you, sir.

I don't twirl although i can do it i find it too hard to incorporate into a beat and i don't solo because i'm not very good at soloing. However i like to have a good time behind the kit and it's just little things that can make it feel great like using your left hand to do open hi-hats or if you have a quarter note beat going get your left hand hitting the hi-hat at the same time as the snare rather than your right. If the beat is slow enough i'll sometimes put my left hand in the air it just feels energetic and if i can make the band look more energetic then i'll do it cause it's fun and it spices up simple things! Showmanship is not a large part of drumming but it's a large part of having fun behind the kit and that's what it's all about.

[bonzolead]

IMHO people come to see a show so don't. be a jukebox it's cool to twirl sticks,throw em in the air,etc. as long as it doesn't. affect your playing or the song.

just make sure you're having a great time. when you're having a great time it puts off a cool vibe and then everybody starts having a great time.

Bonzolead

[Average]

First of all, let's clarify something here...you can't define the word musician without stating that it is a form of entertainer. You can't be a musician without being an entertainer, unless all you do is woodshed. As far as stick tricks, etc, I use some, but never sacrifice musicality. The implication in the title is somehow that doing tricks makes you less of a musician, and that's just a joke. A lot of us learned stick tricks as part of learning better control of our sticks, and understanding the subtle nuances of how we use our hands to control sticks. In that case, learning the tricks actually made us better musicians.

As far as the soloing aspect...that's just confusing to me. To me, a musician is someone who expresses themselves through their instrument. The other day, I spent a half hour soloing (in a room by myself, but playing a long drum solo). It was so much better than going to a shrink, or something like that. It's a great way to express yourself, and any musician needs to be able to solo, whether or not they do it live.

Agreed. I don't do a lot of twirling when I play, in fact I almost never do it because I simply forget to. I am capable of twirling (marching band), I just don't. I can and do solo my ass off when warranted.

I don't know the OP so I don't know if what I am about to say applies to him. No offense meant to the OP. It bothers me when someone who lacks an ability takes artistic credit for not using the ability. Sour grapes. That would be like me trying to take artistic credit for not playing the harp.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Yes, what makes a drummer? I don't twirl but I do take solos. In fact, I have a lot of experience doing solo drumset shows. Go to www.myspace.com/carlossolorzano to see a video sample of what I do live. It's from a Tucson cable TV show.

We have 2 extremes here: One group wants to sit and groove and the other wants to be like Thomas Lang, Marco Minnneman, Mike Mangini, etc. It reminds me also of Vinnie Colaiuta's interview in MD a few years back when he ripped the WFD and clinicians.

This is art so it's subjective! Period! You don't have to like it but if something has an audience, respect it! If you like groove drumming, fine. Love it. But remember this; your relavence depends on other artists, not yourself. You have to play in a band and play a style of music that someone else has invented in order to have artistic relevance or a stage to play on. That's a fact! If you're Phil Collines, great but you still need other musicians to perform.

Solo drummers (yes, I'm biased but I do play in a Christian band, too) should be appreciated for going out there and taking all of the praise and the criticism. Why not? Piano players and guitarists can do solo shows and play in a band so why should they have all of the fun? If Terry Bozzio can sell tickets at the Hollywood Palladium and people come see him play then God Bless him.

Finally, the thing no one wants to talk about. Lang, Mangini, Minneman, Bozzio, Donati, etc....why do some of them get heat from us and other pros? Are you ready? Because most of us on this planet...ready...here we go...most of us CAN'T DO WHAT THEY DO!!!!! If they could don't you think we would've seen them do it by now?

Yes, we hear some say that solo drummers have no context in their playing. What does that mean? I like watching someone do doubles on their double pedal and some of the independence things and let's not forget stick twirling. Frankly, after all of these years I don't want to watch Steve Gadd take a solo anymore because I'm tired of Crazy Army and hearing the same old triplet lick that he seems to play on every CD and video he's ever done. How come no one rags band drummers for playing the same drum licks and solos every night? Where the art in that?

The moral of the story? Be yourself no matter what others think. Maybe they dislike you because you have something special in your groove or your solo. If so, that's their problem.

[Deathmetalconga]

I really have no desire to twirl or solo. So what makes a drummer? How much of it is musicianship and how much being an entertainer? (I guess the question assumes you play live)

It all depends on the genre and context. If you're playing to playing grunge, it's okay to look like a schlub in t-shirt, jeans and sneakers who never makes eye contact. If your genre calls for dressing formal, twirling sticks, engaging the audience, looking exotic, dressing like KISS, whatever, then you should do that.

Unless you are playing in a closet, a musician is also an entertainer and performing artist, like a dancer, actor, mime, etc. Look and act like your audience expects you to look. Yes, it's another set of things to learn.

[wy yung]

I know a guy who have been playing for over 30 years and can twirl like a top. But cannot play a paradiddle to save his life!

Personally I never thought much of twirling. But each to their own.

As for soloing? Sometimes it's required. For example, I played with a show with dancers and during a costume change I had to take a solo. No question, it was specified by the MD.

As for being an entertainer? Every drummer alive should get on his knees and offer a special thank you to Gene Krupa. If he'd not been such a great entertainer, who knows where drummers would be today?

[Pollyanna]

We have 2 extremes here: One group wants to sit and groove and the other wants to be like Thomas Lang, Marco Minnneman, Mike Mangini, etc.

I suppose those extremes exist, but what I've been reading here is a group of drummers looking to provide both musicianship and entertainment value.

It depends on the band and it depends on the song. You don't want to see a drummer twirling his sticks behind a singer wrenching his or her heart out in a deep song. I would find it weird to see Bill Bruford or Pat Mastelotto twirling their sticks during a performance of Larks Tongues in Aspic.

On the other hand, Charlie Watts's deadpan isn't a problem when The Stones are rocking out because Mick, Keith and Ronnie are so animated. If a drummer is rockin out at a club, then some stick tricks can add to the fun. I agree with Wy re: Gene Krupa. The original drum showman and he's still fun to watch today.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Drummers like Lang and company usually add twirls to their drumming. But I'm sure when they do sessions and stuff they do their job.

[pbloxam]

I lean towards the Virgil, Thomas Lange, Mke Mangini, Bobby J. style of playing and entertaining!!!

[imispgh]

Yes, what makes a drummer? I don't twirl but I do take solos. In fact, I have a lot of experience doing solo drumset shows. Go to www.myspace.com/carlossolorzano to see a video sample of what I do live. It's from a Tucson cable TV show.

We have 2 extremes here: One group wants to sit and groove and the other wants to be like Thomas Lang, Marco Minnneman, Mike Mangini, etc. It reminds me also of Vinnie Colaiuta's interview in MD a few years back when he ripped the WFD and clinicians.

This is art so it's subjective! Period! You don't have to like it but if something has an audience, respect it! If you like groove drumming, fine. Love it. But remember this; your relavence depends on other artists, not yourself. You have to play in a band and play a style of music that someone else has invented in order to have artistic relevance or a stage to play on. That's a fact! If you're Phil Collines, great but you still need other musicians to perform.

Solo drummers (yes, I'm biased but I do play in a Christian band, too) should be appreciated for going out there and taking all of the praise and the criticism. Why not? Piano players and guitarists can do solo shows and play in a band so why should they have all of the fun? If Terry Bozzio can sell tickets at the Hollywood Palladium and people come see him play then God Bless him.

Finally, the thing no one wants to talk about. Lang, Mangini, Minneman, Bozzio, Donati, etc....why do some of them get heat from us and other pros? Are you ready? Because most of us on this planet...ready...here we go...most of us CAN'T DO WHAT THEY DO!!!!! If they could don't you think we would've seen them do it by now?

Yes, we hear some say that solo drummers have no context in their playing. What does that mean? I like watching someone do doubles on their double pedal and some of the independence things and let's not forget stick twirling. Frankly, after all of these years I don't want to watch Steve Gadd take a solo anymore because I'm tired of Crazy Army and hearing the same old triplet lick that he seems to play on every CD and video he's ever done. How come no one rags band drummers for playing the same drum licks and solos every night? Where the art in that?

The moral of the story? Be yourself no matter what others think. Maybe they dislike you because you have something special in your groove or your solo. If so, that's their problem.


Stellar post. Very good points.

Interesting you brought up Steve Gadd. To me he is an example of the point. He is a musician who I think feels compelled to be an entertainer - and he does not seem comfortable with that. He has one solo routine because I think he feels he has to have one. I think he is very humble and not a big fan of the fame he has. I also think he is uncomfortable being revered so much. He is great but his reputation has hit mythical status and I don't think he has actually earned that. And you can tell he doesn't feel that way either. (While he can stretch a little he pretty much just adapts his rock/pop tool kit. Look at his jazz playing. he uses quarter notes and rarely does a jazz comp. If you take range, technique and chops in to account Steve is not in the top level. Compare him to Steve Smith and i think you can see the point,)

[motleyh]

2 and 4 are the money beats. Bands are not going to hold auditions for twirling or soloing. Front men don't want you taking attention away from their leads. You get the work by playing the pocket and backing the band.

If you want to put on a show while you do that, that's the second step. But it's not what keeps you working.

[Khaine88]

read this in someones signature. "dont play something that looks cool, play something that sounds cool"

[pbloxam]

2 and 4 are the money beats. Bands are not going to hold auditions for twirling or soloing. Front men don't want you taking attention away from their leads. You get the work by playing the pocket and backing the band.

If you want to put on a show while you do that, that's the second step. But it's not what keeps you working.

I think this applies to bands that aren't looking for solo players or entertaining showmanship as a basis...

I have seen many Bands looking for drummers with showmanship capabilities, double bass work, etc...as well as bands that just want a pocket player...

To each his own....I personally wouldn't play in a band that just wanted a beat in the background...

Those usually are the bands with egostistical singers and guitarists that don't want the limelight taken away from them....

[ace76543]

The thing that separates a novice drummer from a pro who gigs around the world is the ability to entertain. You can be the best drummer out there, but if you're bland and not fun to watch, you'll never make it anywhere, ever. "Rather be a musician, not an entertainer" only works if you never plan on doing anything with your music. Some people choose to play music in their basements with no one around, just for themselves. That's great, as long as you enjoy what you're doing, but if you ever want to play for people, you have to entertain as well as play well.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Stellar post. Very good points.

Interesting you brought up Steve Gadd. To me he is an example of the point. He is a musician who I think feels compelled to be an entertainer - and he does not seem comfortable with that. He has one solo routine because I think he feels he has to have one. I think he is very humble and not a big fan of the fame he has. I also think he is uncomfortable being revered so much. He is great but his reputation has hit mythical status and I don't think he has actually earned that. And you can tell he doesn't feel that way either. (While he can stretch a little he pretty much just adapts his rock/pop tool kit. Look at his jazz playing. he uses quarter notes and rarely does a jazz comp. If you take range, technique and chops in to account Steve is not in the top level. Compare him to Steve Smith and i think you can see the point,)

Finally, someone that listens to one's drumming and just the hype.

Steve Gadd, God Bless him, a songwriter's drummer, not Ringo (more hype) and that's his gig and he's great at what he does. But, if he's going to do clinics and take solos then I think he should consider that his audience may not want to hear the same old stuff.

[Pollyanna]

Finally, someone that listens to one's drumming and just the hype.

Steve Gadd, God Bless him, a songwriter's drummer, not Ringo (more hype) and that's his gig and he's great at what he does. But, if he's going to do clinics and take solos then I think he should consider that his audience may not want to hear the same old stuff.

LOL! I think it's more a matter of knowing that there is a massive number of drummers who are more than happy to keep hearing "the same old stuff" because it might be old and it might be the same, but it's played with some wonderful feel and musicality.

A lot of people get off on drummers twirling even though it's an old, old cliched trick.

Some people might think, "Oh Gadd, he always plays triplets on the toms!" or "Oh twirling, how cliched, puhleeease!" but they're just swimming against a stream of people who really, really enjoy "the same old thing". People also love novelty. Jimbo was right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awi14wDTxNw

:)

[JOE]

I find that drummers need to be both. take a look at Bellson & Rich. ca'nt Argue with success.

[Cuauhtemoc]

LOL! I think it's more a matter of knowing that there is a massive number of drummers who are more than happy to keep hearing "the same old stuff" because it might be old and it might be the same, but it's played with some wonderful feel and musicality.

A lot of people get off on drummers twirling even though it's an old, old cliched trick.

Some people might think, "Oh Gadd, he always plays triplets on the toms!" or "Oh twirling, how cliched, puhleeease!" but they're just swimming against a stream of people who really, really enjoy "the same old thing". People also love novelty. Jimbo was right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awi14wDTxNw

:)

Familiarity is good but then why buy a CD or pay to go to a clinic when you've seen or heard it before. Why not add to the set? Bands tour and play the old hits but aren't they also promoting new material?

Feel...the X factor or, the undefined. Usually it also comes up when the argument goes stale. Tell me, how does Gadd play the triplet lick any different than say Bonham, Smith, etc? Its a simple lick that most drummers can play. We're not talking about a famous beat here. You're telling me that you'll buy a ticket to a show to watch him play the triplet lick? Ah, You Tube?

[wy yung]

Familiarity is good but then why buy a CD or pay to go to a clinic when you've seen or heard it before. Why not add to the set? Bands tour and play the old hits but aren't they also promoting new material?

Feel...the X factor or, the undefined. Usually it also comes up when the argument goes stale. Tell me, how does Gadd play the triplet lick any different than say Bonham, Smith, etc? Its a simple lick that most drummers can play. We're not talking about a famous beat here. You're telling me that you'll buy a ticket to a show to watch him play the triplet lick? Ah, You Tube?


Hmmm, I think one must consider that each individual has a unique feel. Gadd, for example, has his own feel. When he plays any technique or groove it sounds like Gadd. The same can be said for many others. Elvin Jones' triplet feel was quite different from any other drummer I've heard.

As for playing the same thing every night? It worked for Peart. Not that I'm for it unless I'm on a musical or playing a show with a specific written part.

[Cuauhtemoc]

Of course Gadd has his own feel, I never denied that. I was talking about players that do the same old thing every night. Maybe you like it, I don't. I want to see something new and creative, especially after 20 plus years.

[Pollyanna]

I wouldn't pay to see Steve Gadd play triplets but I'd definitely pay to see Steve be his usual ultra-tasty self, triplets and all. He simply sounds good.

If I want clever and innovative I'll listen to Bill Bruford. If I want tasty, then I'd look for someone with those skills. If I want flash and twirling, then I'll look to someone else again. Top musicians all have specialities - their major area or areas of appeal. Some are more specialised, others broader.

[mrchattr]

2 and 4 are the money beats. Bands are not going to hold auditions for twirling or soloing. Front men don't want you taking attention away from their leads. You get the work by playing the pocket and backing the band.

If you want to put on a show while you do that, that's the second step. But it's not what keeps you working.

This is so far from the truth it's not even funny. Most heavily working cover bands want some form of showmanship, and when they audition new drummers, look for it. Any drummer can play Sweet Home Alabama...who can play it right, while entertaining people with a real show, will get the job. I know many peers who haven't had the professional success I have had because they refuse to put on a show...most still work day jobs.

[Cuauhtemoc]

I wouldn't pay to see Steve Gadd play triplets but I'd definitely pay to see Steve be his usual ultra-tasty self, triplets and all. He simply sounds good.

If I want clever and innovative I'll listen to Bill Bruford. If I want tasty, then I'd look for someone with those skills. If I want flash and twirling, then I'll look to someone else again. Top musicians all have specialities - their major area or areas of appeal. Some are more specialised, others broader.

There's a difference between style and repetition.