Neil Peart Plays Buddy Rich [Archive] - DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM

TTNW

09-27-2009, 02:56 PM

No one does what he does better than he does, but the poor bastard can't swing to save his life. That's cool, not everybody can.

I'm a huge Neil fan but you hit it right on the head, the man can't swing.

Guys, I'm curious because swing and jazz feels are the weakest areas of my drumming. Excluding his solo where he "Buddy Rich"s all around the kit, in the beginning of the video, is it his ride beat that lacks any swing? I thought he had a pretty decent triplety swing ride beat going on. Or is it his overall sound, bass, snare and ride beat that is not swinging.

I'm not particularly pro or con on Neil Peart. I like Rush and I've always enjoyed his drumming so I want to skip the Peart argument.

What is it specifically that is lacking in his swing? Defining swing is a little bit to me now, like the words groove and pocket used to be to me 20 years ago. You get it when you get it but with swing, I don't get it yet.

Mediocrefunkybeat

09-27-2009, 03:09 PM

ChrisCirino

09-27-2009, 04:44 PM

Neil is arguable the most influential drummer of the last 25 years and a man I greatly admire for his exploits both on and off the kit. This does not however blind me to the fact that he does not do everything well. I don't think anyone is being "shallow" in voicing their fairly humorous opinions of Neil's mediocre playing at this show. I'm a metal guy and I couldn't play with a big band if I tried. That being said, he's been trying to become a big band drummer for the last 20 years. From the original Buddy concerts in the early 90's (the video that's posted), the Burnin' for Buddy sessions, his terrible Test for Echo Freddy Gruber makeover, his longtime Two O'Clock Jump solo and the latest BRM show in 2008 (I personally liked the BB version of YYZ from this show). I know there are Peart zealots out there who think the man is infallible. One need only to count the Neil clones on youtube laboring away in their basements with replica kits to post another obscure note for note track from Presto. Neil lovers and haters alike should acknowledge, no matter how hard he tries, no matter what his intention, this just isn't his thing. Lets just hope that no one ever posts a video of Elvin playing "Cygnus X-1" or Erskine playing "By-Tor and the Snow Dog".

bobdadruma

09-27-2009, 04:56 PM

I have had this argument before with some drummers about Neil's big band playing. I have the BMG Buddy Rich Tribute CD in my collection.
Although I can tell that Neil is out of his element when playing this form of music. I still enjoyed it! I take it for what it is. A rock drummer playing a different genre! I found it interesting, especially when I listen to the whole album with all of the other drummers on the same CD along with Neil.
Its kind of like watching the British Golf Open and seeing the pros struggle to the point of club throwing! It makes me feel good to know that pro people aren't perfect and I admire them when they push themselves.

drumtechdad

09-27-2009, 05:52 PM

Wow, A lot of haters out there.

This is just silly. Hate? Perhaps you're one of those who mistakes disagreement for intolerance. I prefaced my remarks with "No one does what he does better."

Pretty hateful!

You're not used to seeing NP playing big band?

Ever think of that? You'd have the same reaction to Peter Erskine trying to play prog. Or Elvin Jones trying to play hard rock.

And we can predict the reaction of others! Cool! Gonna try for the trifecta?

Oh, and I hate to break this to you, but Erskine was drummer for Weather Report for several years, and "prog" is just another name for "fusion" but with less soloing.

Not that they can't, but it's not the genre we're used to seeing that particular drummer playing.

Can't you just appreciate what he does, and the fact that why he does it is because it's a tribute to his hero, Buddy Rich.

Well, Bissonette has recorded and toured with dozens of top rock acts, yet he nails the sh!t out of the BR tribute. You see, he can actually do it.

And I'm sorry but the video that Monica linked has a fantastic solo in it. Just because he plays "matched" grip throughout this performance, doesn't mean he doesn't "swing".

And using trad grip and having the ability to swing are related how, exactly? Trifecta!

Don't be so shallow, y'all!

Good advice. I'll try not to let my appreciation for drummers who actually can transcend their specialty color my appreciation for those who, alas, can't. Never occurred to me.

Neil is arguable the most influential drummer of the last 25 years and a man I greatly admire for his exploits both on and off the kit. This does not however blind me to the fact that he does not do everything well.

Exactly. Very few drummers do everything well (Bissonette may be an exception), including myself. If I tried Neil's licks I would crash and burn. As a result, you won't find me making the attempt while cameras are rolling.

Mediocrefunkybeat

09-27-2009, 05:59 PM

Oh, and I hate to break this to you, but Erskine was drummer for Weather Report for several years, and "prog" is just another name for "fusion" but with less soloing.

Man. That's a great line. Had me absolutely and utterly cracking up with that one!

Steamer

09-27-2009, 07:33 PM

Swing is drive. At least, in this case it is. Behind a big band you've got to be pushing forward. If you watch Bisonette (and I'm not a particular fan of him, either) you can see that he's really driving that band forward. Watch the Peart video and you see he's playing the right notes, but the feel is wrong. He's playing on the beat and not an inch ahead or behind. Essentially it's the interaction of the ride with the rest of the band. Look for some good Mel Lewis videos and you'll see some real swing. Watch some of Buddy's stuff (not a particular fan again) and you'll see some real swing. Sooner or later, you'll feel the difference.

There's more to it than that and here's the problem I clearly picked up on listening to his ensemble playing in the clip. Everything he plays is heavily dictated on the heavily placed down beats to my ear making his swing beat sound heavy and static in motion {or lack of forward motion in this case}. There's no sense of real syncopation or a light bounce, buoyancy or natural flow with his swing feel giving the music the much needed lift in this type of musical setting.

The chops are great but the heavy emphasis and placement of the beats doesn't give the music the "floating forward feeling" a seasoned jazz player knows how to achieve putting the right degree of emphasis on the weaker parts of the various resolution points in a bar of beats which is one of a few important elements missed in his interpretation of how to play swing in a true fashion especially in a traditional Big Band situation like this.

Great chops but missing the musical interpretation of achieving that certain swing feel and feeling that doesn't meet up right for the music at hand in this case..........

Mediocrefunkybeat

09-28-2009, 12:10 AM

There's more to it than that and here's the problem I clearly picked up on listening to his ensemble playing in the clip. Everything he plays is heavily dictated on the heavily placed down beats to my ear making his swing beat sound heavy and static in motion {or lack of forward motion in this case}. There's no sense of real syncopation or a light bounce, buoyancy or natural flow with his swing feel giving the music the much needed lift in this type of musical setting.

The chops are great but the heavy emphasis and placement of the beats doesn't give the music the "floating forward feeling" a seasoned jazz player knows how to achieve putting the right degree of emphasis on the weaker parts of the various resolution points in a bar of beats which is one of a few important elements missed in his interpretation of how to play swing in a true fashion especially in a traditional Big Band situation like this.

Great chops but missing the musical interpretation of achieving that certain swing feel and feeling that doesn't meet up right for the music at hand in this case..........

That's what I was trying to say, but that's a much better way of putting it.

I thought of a good analogy earlier. Imagine you have the best story in the World being read by somebody with absolutely no change in diction or dramatic word emphasis. Now imagine a mediocre book being read by somebody with real passion and flair. Which would you enjoy more? In my case, probably the latter.

In this instance, Peart represents the former.

GRUNTERSDAD

09-28-2009, 12:16 AM

QUOTE: Great chops but missing the musical interpretation of achieving that certain swing feel and feeling that doesn't meet up right for the music at hand in this case..........
__________________

Just from too many years of playing only rock.

mrmike

09-28-2009, 12:37 AM

A bit heavy handed when playing to the music. Great solo in the Peart fashion. I always get the feeling there is not much improv when I watch Peart but I would imagine some parts are improvised. Nice to see him play a small kit even if he didn't scrap the double pedal.

Garvin

09-28-2009, 01:25 AM

Ha! Definitely NOT swinging... This video reminds me of that one someone posted of the robot that was programmed to play Giant Steps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7VJMGy3P4w&feature=PlayList&p=310D31C8AE1CB077&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3... This guy is placing notes like a machine, not swinging... This is one of the most efficient solos I've seen, as though it were ordered by a mid-twentieth century dictator.

I have nothing against him personally, but I think everyone is right on the money about his inability to swing. Some folks just can't.

mrmike

09-28-2009, 02:09 AM

This just re-affirms just how great someone like Bill Bruford is. One of the few to make the cross over from rock to jazz convincingly.

Pollyanna

09-28-2009, 03:46 AM

This just re-affirms just how great someone like Bill Bruford is. One of the few to make the cross over from rock to jazz convincingly.

I admit bias because BB is a big fave of mine but it took Bill Bruford years to be broadly accepted by the jazz world, probably not helped by his penchant for doing imaginative, kooky things like playing electronic drums as a melodic instrument in jazz tunes :) Whatever, Bill was never keen on fitting too cleanly into genre because his interest lay mostly in the areas lying between jazz and rock, tho not the standard fusion style.

Bill always tended to have a light touch for a rock drummer and his strokes got lower and lower as his career progresses (his mic'ing must have been excellent) so there was probably less of a jump to jazz than for Neil.

I have nothing against him personally, but I think everyone is right on the money about his inability to swing. Some folks just can't.

If Neil can achieve what he did in the video without a lot of experience, I suspect that with practice he'd be fine - he's a monster. Do you feel than anyone can swing if they put in the listening and playing time? Or is there something intrinsic within people that decides their swinging potential? My guess is that the answer is both.

Garvin

09-28-2009, 03:52 AM

Do you feel than anyone can swing if they put in the listening and playing time? Or is there something intrinsic within people that decides their swinging potential? My guess is that the answer is both.

I personally think that if you dedicate yourself, you can pretty much teach yourself to do anything... I have met old-school dudes who've played with Wes Mongomery, Coltrane etc... (old drummers from the chitlin circuit) who say either you're born with it or you aren't.

Either way, someone with Neil Peart's profile and experience would certainly have had the time and hopefully the interest to invest some amount of time in learning the essential feel of jazz swing. Assuming he put his time in, I personally think he falls short in his execution in terms of the feel.

Steamer

09-28-2009, 04:10 AM

He's certainly capabile of learning to do it. It's not about chops but about understanding the approach and language of syncopation as applied to jazz drumming which I covered in a earlier post.

Anyone truthfully to some degree or another can learn to play swing. Two things you have to do though first to move in the right direction. LISTEN to tons of the actual music to absorb the sound and elements of it through an intuitive listening process and find a good teacher who will focus on the essential elements of what makes for a good swing playing approach be it small ensemble or Big Band which is NOT about chops but understanding certain concepts with playing the instrument.

GRUNTERSDAD

09-28-2009, 04:17 AM

This just re-affirms just how great someone like Bill Bruford is. One of the few to make the cross over from rock to jazz convincingly.

Was it not Steve Smith that went from Jazz to rock to Jazz

Steamer

09-28-2009, 04:21 AM

Was it not Steve Smith that went from Jazz to rock to Jazz

Yes.....................

TTNW

09-28-2009, 04:59 AM

Was it not Steve Smith that went from Jazz to rock to Jazz

I am sorry GruntersDad,

Your posts are relevant yet marvelously diminished to side speak as I admire the gorgeousness of each and every new nubile avatar that appears every week.

My apologies. Yes NP is good but does not swing like a Tampa Bay dinga aling.

Uummmmm.

You are killing me.

mrmike

09-28-2009, 05:12 AM

In Neils defense, Buddy was even farther away from playing rock. In remember Will Lee once describing Buddy's rock playing as corny. Of course sense Buddy never practiced in his entire life, his rock playing never developed. Now that I think of it, Neils swing is a bit corny.

Michael McDanial

09-28-2009, 06:04 AM

I don't believe in the whole "you're either born with it or not" mentality. A lot of jazz drummers I know have said they learned to swing from growing up listening to jazz and spending a lot of time paying close attention to the greats that came before them. I think more than anything it's that passion for the music. These guys were all very passionate about jazz from an early age. I'm sure a lot of great rock drummers are the same way.

I highly respect Neil and really enjoy his playing, but he hasn't got that swing feel. Of course, that doesn't mean that Neil couldn't learn how to swing. He seems to enjoy big band playing, so he certainly might get it down eventually. It's a lot harder to be playing rock for decades and then try and play jazz. Neil obviously enjoys jazz, so by all means, I hope he keeps trying.

There's nothing hateful about saying that Neil doesn't swing in the video, because he plainly doesn't. Just because he's one of the all-time greats doesn't mean that he's beyond criticism. The term "hater" is thrown around way too much nowadays. It's a word that people use because they don't like someone else criticizing somebody who they like. 'You're criticizing a drummer that I really like, so that makes you a hater.'

I don't know where the whole matched grip thing came from. I didn't see anybody on here making a claim that he doesn't swing because he plays with a matched grip. Max Roach switched to matched grip in the sixties, and who the hell would say that Max didn't swing?

If you need a good example of what it is to swing, check out Bobby Durham on this video playing with Oscar Peterson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHr6ZZxb3G4

TTNW

09-28-2009, 06:36 AM

Wow. Marvelous. I'm starting to get it. Swing it forward and fast; push the music but just a little. So great. I'm going to watch all those YouTube clips with Oscar and others.

Oh shit, I'm a rock, blues and pop guy but I'm gonna get into this swing thing now.

That was a great link. Thanks.

DrumEatDrum

09-28-2009, 07:04 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47yxLg2RyXM

Peart has said numerous times he hated his own performance that day.

He has said his motivation behind making the Burning for Buddy CDs was to make up for how badly he played on that particular concert.

joeybeats

09-28-2009, 08:55 AM

Have to jump in here because I'm bored. A couple thoughts, some on point and a couple off.

-- I agree NP doesn't swing and thought so from the first moment I viewed these BR dvd's a few years ago. He sounds like NP of Rush at all times. Glad you guys brought it up cause I wouldn't have had the sticks to say so.

-- Watch some of the guys in the BR band as they watch these guys sit in. Come to your own conclusion of what they are thinking! Hahaha

-- Probably one of the few guys who could sit in and pull a swingin BR session? Our very own Bermuda.

Nobody plays like Buddy and that is something that really can't be ignored. He had power, speed and technique that no one has been able to duplicate. And even if someone matched the speed or technique, or whatever, they haven't been able to obtain all three at the same time. Even these drum gods we are speaking of, none of them match those specific particulars of Buddy. Big deal. They play great anyway because they play their own style.
So, even when guys like Roach or Jo or Mel or Blakey or any of the bop/jazz gods, they swing and they couldn't sound like, or play like buddy either. It is hard enough to get your own style down. And that is how it is with all of this very tough stuff. The easy stuff, like old rock, anybody can play it. The tough stuff? Forget it.

I say Bermuda can do it (or at least a reasonable chance) because he has made a niche career at covering all of the styles and he has an ear and technique to do it. But very few people, NP included, have the skills or desire necessary to drop their own style, take on another, and avoid subconsciously allowing their own to trickle back in. Particularly for one or two sessions. My opinion. Joey

jeffwj

09-28-2009, 09:04 AM

Pollyanna

09-28-2009, 09:06 AM

Nobody plays like Buddy and that is something that really can't be ignored. He had power, speed and technique that no one has been able to duplicate. And even if someone matched the speed or technique, or whatever, they haven't been able to obtain all three at the same time. Even these drum gods we are speaking of, none of them match those specific particulars of Buddy. Big deal. They play great anyway because they play their own style.

My money would be on Dennis Chambers, Vinnie, Billy Cobham and Dave Weckl. I could be wrong bit I find it hard to imagine anything that's beyond those guys.

Deltadrummer

09-28-2009, 09:17 AM

Here's a clip of Sammy Davis playing drums . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JDil65nfPc

joeybeats

09-28-2009, 09:23 AM

Man - check out the late vocalist, Mel Torme on Drums playing the same tune, Cottontail. It is a different arrangement, but Torme does a fine job. Torme seems very influenced by Buddy Rich's playing on Tommy Dorsey's Hawaiian War Chant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEeAS4poGDA

Jeff

Mel Swings like heck in that song. Love the Velvet Fog. Thanks for that. You do know he was good friends with BR and no one has ever written about the way BR played a single stroke roll as he did in Traps. Best description I've ever read and worth the price of the book. He still doesn't sound like BR. But he swings and plays for sure. A+ stuff.

Here's a clip of Sammy Davis playing drums . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JDil65nfPc

Awesome Sammy Davis Jr video. He was an amazing talent and swung that tune for sure. Thanks for that.

My money would be on Dennis Chambers, Vinnie, Billy Cobham and Dave Weckl. I could be wrong bit I find it hard to imagine anything that's beyond those guys.

I've seen Chambers and Weckl, Gadd too. They all sucked IMO in the BR tapes. They can swing. They just didnt swing like BR did when they had the chance. When they play his big band tunes, it just doesn't ring true to me. Good stuff, just off the mark. Doesn't mean worthless. Just worth less. Joey

Steamer

09-28-2009, 09:35 AM

I've seen Chambers and Weckl, Gadd too. They all sucked IMO in the BR tapes. They can swing. They just don't swing like BR did and when they play his big band tunes, and just doesn't ring true to me. Good stuff, just off the mark. Doesn't mean worthless. Just worth less. Joey

Hello! That's a pretty disrespectful point of view IMO. I've heard the Dennis Chambers BR tribute clips in particular and no he doesn't swing like Buddy, that's not the point. He swings like Dennis and he sure intensely swings and burns lighting a serious fire under the band and the soloist like no tomorrow with full intent,authority and conviction setting up the figures and the music as a whole. Buddy would be proud :}

If this sucks I give up.......

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/dennischambersdancingmen.html

Get a grip on reality.......

Steamer

09-28-2009, 09:54 AM

More Dennis simply being Dennis swinging his butt off clearly in full control of the drivers seat for Buddy. Smokin! :

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/dennischamberssistersadie.html

joeybeats

09-28-2009, 09:59 AM

Hello! That's a pretty disrespectful point of view IMO. I've heard the Dennis Chambers BR tribute clips in particular and no he doesn't swing like Buddy, that's not the point. He swings like Dennis and he sure intensely swings and burns lighting a serious fire under the band and the soloist like no tomorrow with full intent,authority and conviction setting up the figures and the music as a whole. Buddy would be proud :}

If this sucks I give up.......

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/dennischambersdancingmen.html

Get a grip on reality.......

Sorry, sounds like another guy at another taping of another Modern Drummer DVD to me. He doesn't swing for me in that video. No big deal. Five percent of the kids at Berklee or on this board have chops like that. It doesn't swing for me and I think Buddy would puke if he heard it. He'd sure swear and cuss anyway. My reality.

More Dennis simply being Dennis swinging his butt off clearly in full control of the drivers seat for Buddy. Smokin! :

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/dennischamberssistersadie.html

Closer. Much better! Joey

Joey

Steamer

09-28-2009, 10:02 AM

[QUOTE=joeybeats;617374]Sorry, sounds like another guy at another taping of another Modern Drummer DVD to me. He doesn't swing for me in that video. No big deal. Five percent of the kids at Berklee or on this board have chops like that. It doesn't swing for me and I think Buddy would puke if he heard it. He'd sure swear and cuss anyway. My reality. Joey[/QUOTE

Sorry can't help you since you haven't get a depth of a clue what you are talking about........ good luck........ later :{

Thaard

09-28-2009, 11:23 AM

Theres no use discussing with fans of Neil Peart and Buddy Rich(or other high profiled drummers). They will always be as fanatical and refuse other opinions. Just look at youtube and see how many people say "He was ok but Neil Peart/Buddy Rich Is GOD OMG". Even if it's Buddy Rich vs Vinnie, how can you compare?

Whats great about the BR tapes is that people who are inspired by BR do their own versions of old BR tracks and therefore making them special. But they also take/borrow some licks from Buddy which makes it more authentic. Problemt is that even if it's not 100% like BR played them, they(the tunes) should have a certain feel and quality. Therefore NP did a not so good job, since he played with too much leverage and not enough swing(too proggy perhaps). It doesnt make him a lesser drummer all in all but he could've done a better job on his swing feel.

Pollyanna

09-28-2009, 11:31 AM

I'd not heard of Dennis Chambers until coming here. At the time I thought the biggest chopmeisters around were the other three guys I mentioned. Then I saw him play - OMG not another uber-beast - they're breeding!

I love stuff that cooks like Sister Sadie! (love Dennis's cheeky smile just as the tenor guy with the golliwog haircut starts his solo too :)

Dennis has that combo of power, energy, control and intelligence that I hear from other top power jazzers like Buddy, Tony and Billy. I'm no expert on swing but if a drummer generates that kind of precise energy as Dennis did it puts a smile on my dial. At that point I don't give a rat's @rse what the technical descriptions are.

Few of us have expertise in astrophysics but we can all enjoy looking at the stars :)

keep it simple

09-28-2009, 03:24 PM

Few of us have expertise in astrophysics but we can all enjoy looking at the stars :)

Nice one Polly! Great quote.

For the record, I very much enjoyed Neil's performance. I get the "he can't swing" comments just as I take on board the fact that I can't Jazz. Doesn't detract from the enjoyment though and my admiration for anyone who pushes their own personal boundries.

Muckster

09-28-2009, 11:49 PM

Let's face it, Neil was in unfamilliar territory playing big band jazz and was handed his hind section. I remember a few Neil clone friends of mine being totally shocked. Neil knew he was in trouble and has talked about it. But what i admire about Neil is he did not quit, learned from the experience and sought out help. He is a better drummer today becuase of that experience.

mrmike

09-29-2009, 02:33 AM

Wow! Those clips from Mel Torme and Sammy Davis Jr. are great. I new Mel could play but not like that.

I thought I would mention Mel Torme's drummer for 20 years Donnie Osborne. A super sweet guy who swings his ass off. He was discovered by Buddy Rich as a teenager. Buddy took him under his wing and let him sit in with his band and he eventually landed with Mel. He now lives in Lake Oswego Oregon and every few months makes his way to Seattle to give lessons at Donn Bennett drum studio.

I had the pleasure of taking a lesson with Donnie which he helped me tremendously at swinging the hats. All he really told me was less stick height and open the hats less (something Neil was not doing!) He also showed me the left stick under the hats trick. The lesson went way long as we traded fills and I had a blast. I look forward to doing it again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjkMcyXmUiw&feature=PlayList&p=2CDA9217E3D65C34&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

Skulmoski

09-29-2009, 05:05 AM

Nice one Polly! Great quote.

For the record, I very much enjoyed Neil's performance. I get the "he can't swing" comments just as I take on board the fact that I can't Jazz. Doesn't detract from the enjoyment though and my admiration for anyone who pushes their own personal boundries.

Yeah, I agree with you; I'm no jazz purist but I enjoyed his BR solo. I haven't been a Rush fan for almost 20 years, but I do appreciate Neil's abilities.

GJS

drumtechdad

09-29-2009, 02:42 PM

One of the things this thread reminds me of is that in the early days of rock, many of the great drummers had a background in jazz. I'm thinking Ginger Baker and Mitch Mitchell, but there were others, too. And even if a drummer didn't play jazz he almost certainly had listened to it.

It seems to me that rock was "swingier" in those days. Not swing--swingier.

Now it's oh-so-very square, and not many drummers have any swing in their development.

And you hardly even hear a shuffle anymore, other than in a blues or country band!

druid

09-29-2009, 04:43 PM

Oh so true...and crap like "pro tools" does nothing to help with the swinglessness of modern music. But these people can't hear how sterile sounding much of this stuff really sounds. "Well it does not line up visually so let's "fix " it"....stupid.

Neil struggled bigtime on his first BR show...I admired he did not quit on doing it....or dodge doing it....he did better the 2nd time around although he still has that "Neil perfection" thing happening...he needs to relax more and feel it more. I think Rush is a very heady type of muisc to play and relies more on thinking than feeling much of the time.

As for ..."these guys don't swing like Buddy" remarks...yeah...and who does? The entire point is diversity and getting people in there ( especially on the latest show Bozzio,Chad Smith etc...) to try Buddy tunes. And I think limiting your judgement to those who sound exactly like Buddy is just as limiting as playing to a click with protools is in the rock world. Its about the variety...not the exact duplication.

Vinnie's appearance was one of the best versions I have heard yet of these shows yet.

I really enjoyed the latest one with Bozzio, Eerskine,Smith, and Igoe as well.

supermac

09-29-2009, 04:45 PM

Got to agree with a lot of the posts.

I've been a massive Neil fan for years and he's been the main influence on my playing.

But...his performance on the latest Buddy DVD ain't so hot, in my opinion.

When I watch someone like Steve Smith swing on his DVD, the difference is immense.

Neil's place as on the greatest ever rock players is assured, but the jazz dabblings - for me - just aren't up to it.

Bernhard

09-29-2009, 06:09 PM

Yes, we have to admire Neil for trying and not giving up to achieve a minimum of swing.
I agree what another poster wrote: Why must there be cameras around then during his practice sessions?

On the other hand there is justice:

Read some stories about Buddy Rich taking some hours with a known Rockdrummer to learn or to achieve a really tight Rock Groove. But it never happened. He always had tendency to fall into a triplet-shuffle feel with the Ride and didn't manage to pull out some really steady 16th bassdrum patterns. So from there came his admiration for Steve Gadd. The saying goes, that his swearing was heard through three closed doors and he gave up finally....

Bernhard

Average

09-29-2009, 10:20 PM

Sorry, sounds like another guy at another taping of another Modern Drummer DVD to me. He doesn't swing for me in that video. No big deal. Five percent of the kids at Berklee or on this board have chops like that. It doesn't swing for me and I think Buddy would puke if he heard it. He'd sure swear and cuss anyway. My reality.

Closer. Much better! Joey

Joey

Good Gawd!

I had the honor of playing with Bobby Shew (trumpet player second from the left) about a year after that concert was taped. I asked him specifically about the concert and he said it was a lot of fun and that those guys were INCREDIBLE drummers (as you can see for yourself by watching the tape.) Keep in mind, Bobby Shew played with the Buddy Rich big band often and over a long period of time, so it isn't as if he hasn't played with power house drummers before.

My own opinion is that Dennis Chambers played true to his own style in music that was written for an iconic drummer. Dennis Chambers' playing on those tunes was nothing less than remarkable. It wasn't the same as Buddy playing the same tunes but it was another world class drummer playing the tunes to be sure.

Edit: I just rewatched the clip. I had that concert on VHS and literally wore the tape out and it broke. I studied that concert inside and out. Its funny how much of those guys crept into and stayed in my playing over the years. I might have to buy it on DVD and revisit it.

Steamer

09-29-2009, 11:49 PM

Good Gawd!

I had the honor of playing with Bobby Shew (trumpet player second from the left) about a year after that concert was taped. I asked him specifically about the concert and he said it was a lot of fun and that those guys were INCREDIBLE drummers (as you can see for yourself by watching the tape.) Keep in mind, Bobby Shew played with the Buddy Rich big band often and over a long period of time, so it isn't as if he hasn't played with power house drummers before.

My own opinion is that Dennis Chambers played true to his own style in music that was written for an iconic drummer. Dennis Chambers' playing on those tunes was nothing less than remarkable. It wasn't the same as Buddy playing the same tunes but it was another world class drummer playing the tunes to be sure.

Edit: I just rewatched the clip. I had that concert on VHS and literally wore the tape out and it broke. I studied that concert inside and out. Its funny how much of those guys crept into and stayed in my playing over the years. I might have to buy it on DVD and revisit it.

Amen......................

Average

10-01-2009, 02:37 AM

Amen......................

Steve Marcus said the same thing a few years later. All of those guys were world class drummers.

LinearDrummer

10-02-2009, 02:27 AM

michael drums

10-02-2009, 05:33 PM

Personally I think this Neil playing jazz thang has been beat/bashed/criticized to death....the horse is dead guys!

And that clip was from like 19 frickin 93?
Atleast post a clip from the 2009 concert after hes been practicing/studying with Erskine and lets see if he's any better.

He didn't even want to do it....had to be convinced. Its not like he's posting vids on youtube to get voted Jazz player of the year.

Absolutely, 100% spot on point, LD!

Couldn't agree more. If you notice, A LOT of the criticism is directed at the top drummers only, because there's no where else for them to go but down. It's human nature to "try" and find flaws in others at the top of their craft, no matter what their craft is. And this is just another example of that.

I don't think NP is ever going to wake up one day and announce to the world that he's switching genres, and is now going to be a "jazz" or "swing" drummer. Though, he is one to challenge himself like that. But he would NEVER consider himself a jazz drummer more than a rock(prog) drummer. Or even a jazz drummer at all.

Come on people, it's a benefit for Buddy Rich. Stop the bashing and try to enjoy the show.

Simple really.

Michael McDanial

10-03-2009, 03:59 AM

Absolutely, 100% spot on point, LD!

Couldn't agree more. If you notice, A LOT of the criticism is directed at the top drummers only, because there's no where else for them to go but down. It's human nature to "try" and find flaws in others at the top of their craft, no matter what their craft is. And this is just another example of that.

I don't think NP is ever going to wake up one day and announce to the world that he's switching genres, and is now going to be a "jazz" or "swing" drummer. Though, he is one to challenge himself like that. But he would NEVER consider himself a jazz drummer more than a rock(prog) drummer. Or even a jazz drummer at all.

Come on people, it's a benefit for Buddy Rich. Stop the bashing and try to enjoy the show.

Simple really.

So this thread is just another example of people trying to find flaws about top drummers? So top drummers are beyond criticism and anyone who makes a remark about something that they didn't like about their playing is only trying to find flaws in their playing, correct? What do you propose we should do? Make it a rule that you can't voice your opinion on a drummer unless it is nothing but positive remarks? Everybody has the right to their own opinion, and if somebody doesn't like the way a certain drummer played, they have every right to voice their opinion. It doesn't make them a hater because they don't like something about the way a certain drummer plays.

Sorry, but just because Neil is one of the greats does not mean that he is beyond criticism, No drummer is beyond criticism, and that includes Buddy as well. I personally prefer Gene Krupa's playing to Buddy's. If I were to go and write an article about why I prefer Krupa's playing over Buddy's, does that make me a hater?

BTW, I take it that you have never made a negative remark about another drummer's playing? I would bet the farm on it that you have and I'm sure you still do when you hear a drummer you don't care for.

Maybe the problem is that fans of certain drummers get really pissed when they read or hear people saying something about why they don't like that drummer's playing, because those fans feel that their favorite drummer/drummers are beyond criticism?

wy yung

10-03-2009, 04:58 AM

I think comparing musicians is a pointless exercise. Music is not a competition. Many students ask me "Is this guy good? Is that guy better than that other guy?" I tell them that all those guys are good. If not they would not be where they are. Somebody better would replace them.

Neil is a very successful drummer. So was Buddy. One has to admire how Neil is trying to improve. Lessons with a master like Erskine is not a bad way to go about it. Kudos to him.

michael drums

10-03-2009, 10:52 AM

So this thread is just another example of people trying to find flaws about top drummers? So top drummers are beyond criticism and anyone who makes a remark about something that they didn't like about their playing is only trying to find flaws in their playing, correct? What do you propose we should do? Make it a rule that you can't voice your opinion on a drummer unless it is nothing but positive remarks? Everybody has the right to their own opinion, and if somebody doesn't like the way a certain drummer played, they have every right to voice their opinion. It doesn't make them a hater because they don't like something about the way a certain drummer plays.

Sorry, but just because Neil is one of the greats does not mean that he is beyond criticism, No drummer is beyond criticism, and that includes Buddy as well. I personally prefer Gene Krupa's playing to Buddy's. If I were to go and write an article about why I prefer Krupa's playing over Buddy's, does that make me a hater?

BTW, I take it that you have never made a negative remark about another drummer's playing? I would bet the farm on it that you have and I'm sure you still do when you hear a drummer you don't care for.

Maybe the problem is that fans of certain drummers get really pissed when they read or hear people saying something about why they don't like that drummer's playing, because those fans feel that their favorite drummer/drummers are beyond criticism?

Go ahead and critique all you want. If it makes you feel better to say/post something negative about a certain drummer or whoever you like. But please tell me that it's more than just that you have the "right" to do so. What's the point? How is that value added?

Yes, there are drummers that I'm not a fan of. But you'd lose that farm if you find ANYTHING I've posted here on DW that resembles criticism about another drummers' playing.

No, the problem is "some" of us feel better about themselves to voice their "opinions" out loud. To say that NP doesn't swing does not solve a great mystery that needs to be addressed. STOP comparing drummers! It's NOT a competition.

And if you knew anything about NP, you'd know how humbled he was/is about the Buddy Rich Memorial concerts that he has produced and played in. And how honored he was/is to participate in them.

It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.

Thaard

10-03-2009, 11:20 AM

If theres someone that critizises Vinnie, I'll bust a cap in yo arses!

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-03-2009, 12:42 PM

It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.

Michael McDanial

10-03-2009, 07:52 PM

Go ahead and critique all you want. If it makes you feel better to say/post something negative about a certain drummer or whoever you like. But please tell me that it's more than just that you have the "right" to do so. What's the point? How is that value added?

Yes, there are drummers that I'm not a fan of. But you'd lose that farm if you find ANYTHING I've posted here on DW that resembles criticism about another drummers' playing.

No, the problem is "some" of us feel better about themselves to voice their "opinions" out loud. To say that NP doesn't swing does not solve a great mystery that needs to be addressed. STOP comparing drummers! It's NOT a competition.

And if you knew anything about NP, you'd know how humbled he was/is about the Buddy Rich Memorial concerts that he has produced and played in. And how honored he was/is to participate in them.

It doesn't matter WHO I'm a fan of, it serves no purpose to find fault in what they do. And this is no exception.

So anybody on here that says something about another drummer's playing that he didn't care for is only doing it to make himself/herself feel better?

When I was talking about making negative comments about a drummer that you didn't care for, I wasn't specifically talking about just on this forum, but in life in general. Do you really expect me to believe that you have never said, in any conversation about drums or drummers that you have had with other people, that you didn't care for a certain drummer's playing or that you didn't care for the way they did something on a certain song, or anything else along those lines?

I never said anything negative about Neil as a person. I'm well aware that Neil is a humble person. Where the hell did I ever attack Neil's character? Stop making accusations that you can't back up.

I never compared Neil to Buddy or anybody else. I just said that I agreed with other members that his playing was lacking that swing feel, and you try and twist it into something that it's not.

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.

Thank you, Mediocrefunkybeat, for clarifying my point.

So, michael drums, does this rule only apply to drummers, or like mediocrefunkybeat said, is it also wrong to criticize an actor or a movie that they were in? Have you never said that you didn't care for a certain actor, or didn't like a certain move? Have you ever said that you didn't like the food at a restaurant you have been? Have you ever read a book that you didn't like? Because according to you, to make such comments is only because you're trying to find fault in something. These comments, according to you, just mean that the person is just hating on the drummer/musician, or actor, movie, chef, author or anybody else, pick a category. Do you expect me to believe that you never said that you didn't like something? Get off your high horse and stop attacking people on here just because they said they didn't care for something about Neil's playing on the video. If anybody here is trying to make themselves feel better by making negative comments, it's you. You're the one trying to make yourself feel better by attacking others because you're a Peart fanatic who can't stand it when somebody says that they didn't care for Neil's playing on this video. As the old blues song goes "Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself".

Steamer

10-03-2009, 07:56 PM

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.

Agreed. It's healthy to know what we each can and cannot do and what we need to focus and work on especially if we are going to perform on a global stage where you are all naturally going to be directly compared to the greats that came before you who defined the craft regardless of what genre it is that was played musically speaking. This is how you remain humble and continue to grow as a musician {if that's what you desire}.

In this case if a well known drummers swing playing is "weak" or lacks the right "concept" and if humble enought to realize this after the valid comments that came in after this first attempt now opens up the chance to actually learn what is needed to make a better stab at it the next time around. I think Neil did this with studying with Peter Erskine to get a better grip on what it takes to play some authentic swing type playing. Good on him for that......

LinearDrummer

10-03-2009, 09:29 PM

A top pro drummer is not beyond criticism because everyone has the right to express their opinion. How much of it is percieved as negative will depend upon how many aspects you like/dislike of the player.

Weckl was criticized for being too robotic with his playing. Maybe he listened cause eventually he went to Gruber, loosened up and is basically a totally different version.

I think its already been established that there are some issues with the playing in that clip. He's practiced and prepared for the 2009 concert so its time to post something recent and if people still don't like it so be it. That was more than 15 years ago..I can look back 5 years on my playing and be pretty embarassed. Lets give him a chance and see if he has improved with Erskine's tutoring.

From what I understand Steve Smith was a jazz trained drummer and even though he played with Journey not sure rock was his top priority...possible why his solo career was such a smooth transition to jazz.

LinearDrummer

10-03-2009, 09:35 PM

In this case if a well known drummers swing playing is "weak" or lacks the right "concept" and if humble enought to realize this after the valid comments that came in after this first attempt now opens up the chance to actually learn what is needed to make a better stab at it the next time around. I think Neil did this with studying with Peter Erskine to get a better grip on what it takes to play some authentic swing type playing. Good on him for that......

Yes!
A good example of how criticism can drive/inspire a musician to play better.

great post

Michael McDanial

10-03-2009, 09:49 PM

Agreed. It's healthy to know what we each can and cannot do and what we need to focus and work on especially if we are going to perform on a global stage where you are all naturally going to be directly compared to the greats that came before you who defined the craft regardless of what genre it is that was played musically speaking. This is how you remain humble and continue to grow as a musician {if that's what you desire}.

In this case if a well known drummers swing playing is "weak" or lacks the right "concept" and if humble enought to realize this after the valid comments that came in after this first attempt now opens up the chance to actually learn what is needed to make a better stab at it the next time around. I think Neil did this with studying with Peter Erskine to get a better grip on what it takes to play some authentic swing type playing. Good on him for that......

Yes, this is exactly what I was saying in my first post.

I highly respect Neil and really enjoy his playing, but he hasn't got that swing feel. Of course, that doesn't mean that Neil couldn't learn how to swing. He seems to enjoy big band playing, so he certainly might get it down eventually. It's a lot harder to be playing rock for decades and then try and play jazz. Neil obviously enjoys jazz, so by all means, I hope he keeps trying.

According to michael drums, this a a hateful comment that is only meant to degrade Neil's playing. How the hell is my post a hateful remark towards Neil's playing?

michael drums

10-04-2009, 06:13 AM

bobdadruma

10-04-2009, 06:51 AM

RMS

10-04-2009, 07:17 AM

No one does what he does better than he does, but the poor bastard can't swing to save his life. That's cool, not everybody can.

And memo to Neil: bring a coated snare batter next time.

Here, try this instead:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Y42cexum4

All I have to say is that Gregg has everyone beat with that sweet haircut. The mullet-tux combination does it for me.

RMS

10-04-2009, 07:23 AM

Thank You Michael! My sediments exactly! Well, Said!

Yes, let's not drift to the bottom on this.

Steamer

10-04-2009, 08:16 AM

Look...

You guys miss the boat completely.

It's a memorial concert, for cryin' out loud!!!

Why you bustin' on NP?

Get over yourselves, and don't say anything if you don't have anything to add that educates or inspires. No matter if you have the right to.

Move on already. Geeez!

Actually a few of us made some pretty accurate ,honest and fair comments that could move Neil in the right direction which he sounds like he did after this first stab of playing swing with a pro level Big Band which clearly missed the mark conceptually speaking from an ensemble point of view in a true jazz swing sense on the early clip. Fair honest observation{s}. Get over it and stop with the blind hero worship routine. Enough already........

If you are going to play Big Band jazz ensemble music on a world stage with world class seasoned Big Band players all comments about how you delivered {or didn't deliver} the goods is open turf to comment on from an ensemble point of view IMO

That's life.... deal with it......... which at least Neil sounds like he did to his credit as a positive example and step to follow for others in the same learning position regarding playing good swing.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-04-2009, 01:43 PM

Get over yourselves, and don't say anything if you don't have anything to add that educates or inspires. No matter if you have the right to.

Actually, this thread does educate. Education does not consist of simply praising other drummers, but also critique. Critique is important - it's how we learn our weaknesses and improve upon them and critiquing the weaknesses of other musicians lets us see the mistakes that we'd like not to make.

drumtechdad

10-04-2009, 02:54 PM

Look...

You guys miss the boat completely.

It's a memorial concert, for cryin' out loud!!!

Why you bustin' on NP?

Get over yourselves, and don't say anything if you don't have anything to add that educates or inspires. No matter if you have the right to.

Move on already. Geeez!

I don't think anyone was "bustin' on NP," as most of the posters said how great he is and he can't swing. Those two things are not incompatible.

Look: you post, you get responses. I thought that was the point. You don't like the responses, tough titty. This thread is an education; for you, to realize that opposing opinions do not hurt anyone (yourself or NP), and for everyone to realize that greatness in one genre does not necessarily carry over to another, although there are exceptions as noted.

And, this thread inspired a wonderful thread (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54196) full of videos of swing drummers demonstrating how it's done.

If you stifle debate, no one learns anything. We get rather too much of "the time for talk is over" in other aspects of our lives.

Thank You Michael! My sediments exactly! Well, Said!

Who wants this one? Oooops, too late!

Carry on.

bobdadruma

10-04-2009, 04:51 PM

I don't think anyone was "bustin' on NP," as most of the posters said how great he is and he can't swing. Those two things are not incompatible.

Look: you post, you get responses. I thought that was the point. You don't like the responses, tough titty. This thread is an education; for you, to realize that opposing opinions do not hurt anyone (yourself or NP), and for everyone to realize that greatness in one genre does not necessarily carry over to another, although there are exceptions as noted.

And, this thread inspired a wonderful thread (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54196) full of videos of swing drummers demonstrating how it's done.

If you stifle debate, no one learns anything. We get rather too much of "the time for talk is over" in other aspects of our lives.

Who wants this one? Oooops, too late!

Carry on.I equated it to when you are watching a rerun of a sporting event from years ago and the current time commentator finds a flaw in the performance of one of the athletes. The sports commentator keeps talking about it. (Tennis commentators love to do this when they are showing an old match on TV because of a rain delay in the current match that they are there to comment on)
I always think this to myself, "OK, It was years ago, It happened, So What does that have to do with right now? That player isn't the same as He/She was years ago."
I turn the sound to mute and I just watch and enjoy the old match.
We are talking about something that NP did years ago.

GRUNTERSDAD

10-04-2009, 08:23 PM

Years ago yes, but because he is a contemporary drummer he will be open for criticism. Nobody seems to have a problem with criticizing Ringos play with the Beatles 40 years ago. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. In the clip played, NP wasn't that good. If you don't want criticism on a 6 year old clip, don't post a 6 year old clip. No one was criticizing the man only the performance. Time to get over it.

bobdadruma

10-04-2009, 08:37 PM

Nobody seems to have a problem with criticizing Ringos play with the Beatles 40 years ago.
Actually, That kind of thing does rattle my cage quite a bit! Along with picking on concert toms, open faced pillow stuffed bass drums, and thumpy toms of the 1960s. These things were part of history. It was the way that it was at that instant in time! We should simply accept them and view them for what they were. True, we can learn from them, It,s not fair to say that someone can't swing based on one performance in their career!
Monday morning Quarterbacks always know how to win the game!

GRUNTERSDAD

10-04-2009, 08:47 PM

That, in part, was my point. Why show a 6 year old clip if that drummers chops have improved in that genre. Anyone who has been an attendee of this forum for any length of time knows that all posts are fair game, and will be criticized. As long as they aren't rude, crude or unattractive. Again, no on was ragging on Peart the guy, just the performance and I see no wrong in that.

bobdadruma

10-04-2009, 08:55 PM

Let's look at it from this perspective. I love Swing music, all of the great masters of it, and the graceful way that they play Swing. I enjoyed seeing Neil play swing the way that he did.
I liked the rock style hitting as it was applied to the swing tune. It was something different to watch and hear. I put aside my notions of Swing, and I viewed the performance as it was. I loved the solo also!
Niel played swing like Neil! He was being himself! I can't fault him for that!

aydee

10-04-2009, 09:33 PM

"OK, It was years ago, It happened, So What does that have to do with right now? That player isn't the same as he was years ago."

29155

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.....

GRUNTERSDAD

10-04-2009, 09:41 PM

Is that Randy Quaid?

Deltadrummer

10-04-2009, 09:49 PM

Sorry, but how does that work? Nobody is beyond critique.

Take an actor you really like. Now, has that actor ever been in a bad film? ALL actors have been in a bad film - so the answer there is a solid yes. Are we allowed to make that point clear? Yes. Does it help the actor improve and choose better films in the future? Yes. Now replace 'actor' with 'musician' or 'drummer'.

Even Einstein has his critics.

I think there is a lack of respect for criticism in music. That is what separates popular and classical music. But try to argue against Wagner to a Wagnerite or Schoenberg to a serialist. And then you have Buddy and Peart, the two sacred cows of drum-dom.

Entering into a critical discourse can help to deepen your understanding of a drummer or any artist. You throw ideas around. You agree. You disagree. There are always going to be artists who you don't like. I would hope people would have that much of an artistic palette to actually not like something. I try to be as open as possible to music. But you have to be able to say that some stuff is just crap.

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 12:12 AM

Steamer

10-05-2009, 12:42 AM

I would like to put things this way. I have seen and heard both Neil Peart and Buddy Rich lay down things on a drum kit that made my mouth drop open and I was humbled in awe at what both of these men, and many others that are in their league could do with rhythms!

I have been playing for many years, I know a great drummer when I see one! I will not sit quietly on the sidelines while people criticize drummers that are truly worth honorable mention.

You seem to miss the point of the whole discussion Bob. No matter who you are if you miss the mark by a country mile due to not knowing the language being spoken the jig is up clear and simple... that's the blunt truth which applies to ALL drummers regardless of fame or fortune in whatever genre they choose or have their claim to fame in.

Here's another way of looking at from a perspective/psychological human perception standpoint. If you only heard the early clip without the visual footage up to and minus the solo {and here's the important part} not knowing who the drummer actually was could you say in all honestly the drummer in question was really swinging, playing or phrasing like a pro level seasoned Big Band drummer from what you heard in the audio track? Most people who know this particular jazz language intimately by ear by listening to that music for years or having actual experience with playing that drum chair firsthand would say not a chance in Hell "whoever" it was nailed it for real within that common known jazz language.

After this first go I believe Neil himself had this humble "moment" of understanding and decided to find a good teacher to do the much needed "homework" required to honor the Big Band jazz craft in a better way the next time around. Good on him for doing that......

THAT'S the point from my side of the tracks my friend and will remain unchanged.... no hate or slamming just plain simple reality for doing the given task and job it's proper due respect.

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 01:03 AM

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 01:22 AM

Here is Duke Ellington's version of Cottontail. I love this one also!

Steamer

10-05-2009, 01:24 AM

Here is the Cottontail that Neil recorded on the original Burning for Buddy CD. I loved it! I found it to be unique and different! I have numerous versions of this song in my collection. I like all of them. i don't think that Neil was better than others. I just like his version also. You guys decide!

Sounds very heavy to me Bob and not very swinging in the true sense of the word musically speaking. Has some of the problems I listed in detail in the much earlier #15 post in the thread.

Chops are fine but it's not about chops for me it's about having a certain concept and delivery I need to hear to call it swing based drum performance. The syncopated ensemble figures aren't very well set up to my liking to give the phrases a forward push in this Big Band ensemble setting, they always seem to be placed way behind {slowing down} the pulse making it loose it's forward motion for the overall ensemble performance of the tune. The time, swing feel has a heavily emphasis on the down beats making it feel well..... heavy...... instead of a emphasis on syncopation, floating light on top of the beat {bouyant}. In other words some actual swinging going on.

My opinion and ear........

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 01:29 AM

Here is The New York Voices performing Cottontail. I also play this one all the time and I enjoy it each Time!

Steamer

10-05-2009, 01:34 AM

Here is Duke Ellington's version of Cottontail. I love this one also!

Now we're are talking........ all the elements of swing based ensemble music are all in the right place Bob :}

P.S. Add this great audio track to the swing thread for reference.....

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 01:38 AM

Sounds very heavy to me Bob and not very swinging in the true sense of the word musically speaking. Has some of the problems I listed in detail in the much earlier #15 post in the thread.

Chops are fine but it's not about chops for me it's about having a certain concept and delivery I need to hear to call it swing based drum performance. The syncopated ensemble figures aren't very well set up to my liking to give the phrases a forward push in this Big Band ensemble setting, they always seem to be placed way behind {slowing down} the pulse making it loose it's forward motion for the overall ensemble performance of the tune. The time, swing feel has a heavily emphasis on the down beats making it feel well..... heavy...... instead of a emphasis on syncopation, floating light on top of the beat {bouyant}. In other words some actual swinging going on.

My opinion and ear........Exactly, I appreciated the song slowed down, after hearing it many times, by many bands played fast. The song felt soothing to me, Not hurried, like other performances that I have heard. It relaxed me a bit more and I liked it!

Steamer

10-05-2009, 01:48 AM

Exactly, I appreciated the song slowed down, after hearing it many times, by many bands played fast. The song felt soothing to me, Not hurried, like other performances that I have heard. It relaxed me a bit more and I liked it!

That's not what I was saying or the point I was getting at. It's not about the tempo it's about what is played within any given tempo in swing based music which in the faster tempo example had all the elements in place to swing in spades. In Neil's one of the same tune he sounded back and behind and heavy on the beat with his playing at THAT TEMPO loosing the forward moving swing feel REGARDLESS OF THE TEMPO of the tune being played.

Sorry i'm a real sticklier for this kind of stuff {the devil's in the details} since this is what I do in life as a veteran jazz performer and instructor. Take no prisoners........

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 01:54 AM

That's not what I was saying. It's not about the tempo it's about what is played within any given tempo in swing based music which in the faster tempo example had all the elements in place to swing in spades. In Neil's one of the same tune he sounded back and behind and heavy on the beat with his playing at THAT TEMPO loosing the forward moving swing feel REGARDLESS OF THE TEMPO of the tune being played.

Sorry i'm a real sticklier for this kind of stuff since this is what I do a in life as a veteran jazz performer and instructor. Take no prisoners........ Stan, I understand the concept of playing ahead of the beat. It was probably Neil's heavy playing on the beat that prompted the band director to slow the song in the first place. It still sounds good that way to me. It is just another take on the song. That is what I have been getting at. I can tell the diff between playing in Swing style and that of playing in a modified style. I can appreciate both of them.

Mediocrefunkybeat

10-05-2009, 01:58 AM

Steamer

10-05-2009, 02:00 AM

Average

10-05-2009, 02:27 AM

I think a lot of people must not understand what it is to swing. Here's to hoping NP learned what swing is in the years since 93.

Here is the other thing about playing jazz ... REAL jazz, not your highschool jazz band bullcrap ...

It is improvised. There is no set part that you can memorize and play over and over again. I think a major problem with NP's performance is that he doesn't seem to improvise at all, or even understand what the purpose of the improvisation is. In jazz, the improvisation is a conversation between the members of the band and the audience. I don't know, maybe I am beating my head against the wall trying to explain it. People just don't seem to get it. Oh well. That is why I am not a writer.

Pollyanna

10-05-2009, 02:53 AM

Stan, I understand the concept of playing ahead of the beat. It was probably Neil's heavy playing on the beat that prompted the band director to slow the song in the first place. It still sounds good that way to me. It is just another take on the song. That is what I have been getting at. I can tell the diff between playing in Swing style and that of playing in a modified style. I can appreciate both of them.

I find it hard to compare Neil and Duke with the differing tempos and sound quality. Neil's playing sounded good to me and I enjoyed the way he played the kicks. Maybe that's due to my rock background - I like a bit of oomph! Still, I can see the need for subtlety because that could become tiresome over the course of a full concert.

Stan, I'm not sure I understand your comment about playing the downbeats. Gene Krupa hit a lot of heavy downbeats and his playing swung like crazy to my ear. Not disagreeing, just trying to understand from someone in the know.

Re: NY Voices, I've never been a fan of ensemble jazz singing, maybe because it reminds me too much of the annoying music Mum used to have on the radio :) It always seemed pretty square next to Sgt Pepper - even for an under-10. The exception is Manhatten Transfer's version of Birdland, although I still much prefer the original.

The differing opinions could be that some are coming to this as jazz drumming connoisseurs whereas I'm happy with a cheap bottle of red (even a drop of Chateau de Cardboarde at a stretch) - just as long as it doesn't taste like vinegar :)

Steamer

10-05-2009, 03:07 AM

Stan, I'm not sure I understand your comment about playing the downbeats. Gene Krupa hit a lot of heavy downbeats and his playing swung like crazy to my ear. Not disagreeing, just trying to understand from someone in the know.

It's the difference with the older style of swing you hear with Gene that along with a bigger emphasis on the beat yes but also the element of the right syncopated degree of emphasis on the weaker parts of the beats Polly especially with setting up ensemble figures in the music that gave the music the right "lift" of flowing swing not making it too heavy or "weighed down" as i'm hearing in Neil's first attempt at Big Band swing playing.

Myself i'm VERY curious how he sounds playing Big Band charts years later after his studies with Peter Erskine. Anybody have a recent video clip to share?

Pollyanna

10-05-2009, 03:24 AM

It's the difference with the older style of swing you hear with Gene that along with a bigger emphasis on the beat yes but also the element of the right syncopated degree of emphasis on the weaker parts of the beats Polly especially with setting up ensemble figures in the music that gave the music the right "lift" of flowing swing not making it too heavy or "weighed down" as i'm hearing in Neil's first attempt at Big Band swing playing.

Myself i'm VERY curious how he sounds playing Big Band charts years later after his studies with Peter Erskine. Anybody have a recent video clip to share?

Thanks Stan, that helps. Listening again, there does seem to be a bit of a lumpiness in the kicks rather than a sense of skating along. Closer?

Steamer

10-05-2009, 03:33 AM

Thanks Stan, that helps. Listening again, there does seem to be a bit of a lumpiness in the kicks rather than a sense of skating along. Closer?

Yes Polly. Also instead of feathering the bass drum during the swing time sections and saving the louder kicks for the syncopated setup ensemble hits he seems to play the bass drum pretty heavy throughout the entire track {time and figures} giving the feeling of weighing it down {too heavy}. Lacks the swing "lift" you can get from better bass drum dynamics in jazz swing playing when playing the bass drum softer traditionally in a Big Band setting for time playing [feathering on the 1/4's} and using it more effectively to punch out the accents be they on or off the beat only for the big hits.

GRUNTERSDAD

10-05-2009, 03:36 AM

In his own words, Even Neil didn't think he was very good. all is well that ends well.

In 1992, Peart was invited by Buddy Rich's daughter, Cathy Rich, to play at the Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship Concert in New York City. Though initially intimidated by the request, Peart accepted the offer and performed for the first time with the Buddy Rich Big Band. Feeling that his performance left much to be desired, Peart decided to produce and play on two Buddy Rich tribute albums titled Burning for Buddy: A Tribute to the Music of Buddy Rich in 1994 and 1997 in order to regain his aplomb.

Peart wrote on his personal website that "And yet...I still had a nagging feeling that when I played in that style, I was just imitating it, not really feeling it properly. As the old Duke Ellington standard goes, 'It don’t mean a thing, if it ain’t got that swing', and I didn’t think I did."[17]

In early 2007, Peart and Cathy Rich again began discussing yet another Buddy tribute concert. In response, Peart decided to once again augment his swing style with formal drum lessons, this time under the tutelage of another pupil of Freddie Gruber, Peter Erskine, himself an instructor of drummer Steve Gadd. On October 18, 2008, Peart once again performed at the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert at New York's Hammerstein Ballroom.

bobdadruma

10-05-2009, 03:38 AM

I think that PART of the answer is that A rock drummer does not understand the left hand of a Swing, Bop, and Jazz drummer. I do because I am a lefty that plays righty. I never had trouble understanding the left hand of a Swing drummer. I have to hold back my left hand while playing rock so that I don't play to many grace notes and drive the song ahead. I like both styles because I can play both styles. I can play Cottontail like Ellington's version. I can play ahead of the beat and lead with the left hand. I find it harder to play the tune like Neil because I don't think like a Rock drummer. That is why I like Neil's way of playing the song. It is something that I would have trouble doing.
Buddy's left hand was faster than mine of course, but I always understood what he was doing with it.
I will frequently play ahead of the beat with the musical morons that I am forced to play with only to find that they just don't understand what I am doing. If I try to play behind the beat they are also easily lost. This is the scourge of a drummer that understands Jazz and improve who plays with Rock orientated musicians.
That will explain why I like both of the versions of Cottontail.

LinearDrummer

10-05-2009, 04:27 AM

In the clip played, NP wasn't that good. If you don't want criticism on a 6 year old clip, don't post a 6 year old clip. No one was criticizing the man only the performance. Time to get over it.

But its more like 16 years ago!
Talk about beatin a horse to death...

In his own words, Even Neil didn't think he was very good. all is well that ends well.

In 1992, Peart was invited by Buddy Rich's daughter, Cathy Rich, to play at the Buddy Rich Memorial Scholarship Concert in New York City. Though initially intimidated by the request, Peart accepted the offer and performed for the first time with the Buddy Rich Big Band. Feeling that his performance left much to be desired, Peart decided to produce and play on two Buddy Rich tribute albums titled Burning for Buddy: A Tribute to the Music of Buddy Rich in 1994 and 1997 in order to regain his aplomb.

Peart wrote on his personal website that "And yet...I still had a nagging feeling that when I played in that style, I was just imitating it, not really feeling it properly. As the old Duke Ellington standard goes, 'It don’t mean a thing, if it ain’t got that swing', and I didn’t think I did."[17]

In early 2007, Peart and Cathy Rich again began discussing yet another Buddy tribute concert. In response, Peart decided to once again augment his swing style with formal drum lessons, this time under the tutelage of another pupil of Freddie Gruber, Peter Erskine, himself an instructor of drummer Steve Gadd. On October 18, 2008, Peart once again performed at the Buddy Rich Memorial Concert at New York's Hammerstein Ballroom.

Thats was my point!
Why didn't the thread starter post a recent/more updated version of NP...if the experienced jazzers still say it doesn't swing then so be it.

Steamer

10-05-2009, 04:30 AM

Why didn't the thread starter post a recent/more updated version of NP...if the experienced jazzers still say it doesn't swing then so be it.

Myself i'm keeping an open mind on the subject and want to see it........

LinearDrummer

10-05-2009, 04:45 AM

Myself i'm keeping an open mind on the subject and want to see it........

Yes...whether or not he is able to play the jazz language proficiently does not diminish the fact that he will always be considered one of the great certainly most inspirational (definitely for me) progressive rock drummers of our time.

However thinking he is beyond critique, certainly his swing is borderline fanboy, blind hero worship...and I think he would be embarassed to see fans think that...kinda Travis Barkerish if you ask me.

Deltadrummer

10-05-2009, 05:03 AM

Myself i'm keeping an open mind on the subject and want to see it........

Don't hold your breadth. From what I heard, Peart's performance at the tribute was the same ole same ole. He does a Big Band version of Rush's YYZ. It's worth a listen in and of itself. I haven't seen the dvd, didn't go to the show. Would have but I had tix for McCoy Tyner. I can go see Tommy's band with the guy I really want to see playing behind the kit, though I work Friday's and rarely get to go these days..Tommy does a lot of Buddy charts, less now than he did before; but he just had a Buddy Rich Tribute show for the B-Day bash and promised to do at least half a dozen charts.

Pollyanna

10-05-2009, 07:06 AM

I am not a hater or a basher or jealous or afflicted with schadenfreude but Neil's drumming has never done it for me, despite the fact that he's obviously a world class drummer. It's only my opinion and the huge number of people who love his playing is testimony that his playing does touch people - just not me.

I suspect the qualities in his playing that don't touch me are part of why some people don't fancy his big band playing. In both rock and jazz I find his playing a bit clinical for my tasttes. Not only his approach but also his sound. The thing I like best about jazz drumming is the sound - all those subtle nuances where the players extract lots of sounds from each part of the kit. When coupled with dexterity, it creates an organic sound that I enjoy. I don't hear the subtleties in these takes - just very clean execution with some dynamic sections. I would like to hear more sounds extracted from the ride, a more open, higher tuned snare (less of a pinstripe-y sound), same with the toms.

As a drummer I'm barely qualified to carry Neil's stick bag - it's just how I hear it.

Some might find it a bit rich for a Bill Bruford fan to call Neil's drumming clinical, but Bill was so imaginative in his use of sounds and general approach - most times it's bright and colourful.