Explaining a dotted note

[Dave_Major]

Hey guys, another teaching question.

One thing I have never found a good way of explaining is a dotted note. One of the first sheet any new students do is a sheet I made called building a beat. On the second page is a load of beats that have a dotted 8th and 16th note bass pattern so that the bass is on 1 and the next A...if you get me. So it is introduced pretty early to all students and I am not happy with the way I explain it.

I explain it mainly as the dot adds half the value again or (and this is the bit that could be improved) you times it by one and a half....this really seems to confuse people of all ages but I am unsure of another way to really explain it.

I am just looking for the ways that some of you teachers out there explain this musical idea to students.

Cheers in advance guys


Dave

[jeffwj]

Here's a link to a previous discussion.
http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45532&highlight=dotted

Jeff

[jeffwj]

and more.

http://drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40590&highlight=dotted

Jeff

[thelimpingtoad]

I think the easiest way to explain all note values is in terms of relating the music to math... that way students can get a clear picture of how they all relate... maybe using some type of visual aid like building blocks or something would help... or pie or something... just like the examples used in math class for fractions.
mmm... i love pie.

EDIT: oh yeah... ummm... sorry i read jeff's post and see there's a thread on this already... i also read his explanation in that thread and teaching about ties first might be the solution... just show them that a tied quarter and eighth notes equals the dotted quarter etc.

[Dave_Major]

HI JEff, I had a read through both of those threads. They turned out pretty heated!!!

However they all sort of stick to the same idea and the way I teach the concept. I am really looking for other ways that I could explain it to people who don't really get the maths thing.

For instance some kids don't like maths! and as soon as I begin talking about half the value again or something to that effect they switch off and don't take the idea in.

This is about the only thing I have to teach that I can't use an analagy for or have 3 different ways of explaining it that I can pull out of the bag if the student isn't grasping one way.

I hope you get what I am meaning.

Thanks

Dave

[Dave_Major]

Hi Limpingtoad.

I do think a tie idea may be useful but I have tried to use it sometimes to limited success. The building blocks idea is a good thing and I have used Lego before to explain how the first quarter note takes the space of the first beat and nothing else can occupy that space. Therefore the next note must be.....2..tada!


Cheers for your advice guys

Dave

[donv]

I'm not sure what you're working with, but a dotted 16th is a pretty rare animal although it seems common with some to refer to the dotted 8th shuffle as a dotted 16th.

[thelimpingtoad]

I'm not sure what you're working with, but a dotted 16th is a pretty rare animal although it seems common with some to refer to the dotted 8th shuffle as a dotted 16th.

I think he meant its dotted eighths mixed with 16ths (undotted) like 1--a 2--a 3--a 4--a...

I agree this is a really hard concept to teach to someone... And it looks like the OP was really looking for teaching aids not asking what it is himself... I think its one of the harder concepts of rythmic notation to teach people... especially if they are not good with math or fractions...

[jeffwj]

I didn't re-read all the posts from the previous threads, but I do like the idea of explaining it like this: (great for your kids who hate math)

A dotted note is equal to 3 of the next smallest value.

Take a dotted quarter note. The next smallest value of a quarter note is an eighth note, so take three of them and that's the value of the dotted quarter - the same as three eighth notes tied together.

Jeff

[donv]

I think he meant its dotted eighths mixed with 16ths (undotted) like 1--a 2--a 3--a 4--a...

I agree this is a really hard concept to teach to someone... And it looks like the OP was really looking for teaching aids not asking what it is himself... I think its one of the harder concepts of rythmic notation to teach people... especially if they are not good with math or fractions...

Yea, I assumed as much which is why I went to the shuffle thing which is what you defined better. But if this wasn't it, the dotted 16th is pretty rare to come across.

[donv]

I didn't re-read all the posts from the previous threads, but I do like the idea of explaining it like this: (great for your kids who hate math)

A dotted note is equal to 3 of the next smallest value.

Take a dotted quarter note. The next smallest value of a quarter note is an eighth note, so take three of them and that's the value of the dotted quarter - the same as three eighth notes tied together.

Jeff

I think it's Louis Bellson's book on Sycopation, which by the way he says if for all instruments, when starting new concepts he begins the exercises with the 3 ways of writing everything. Dotted notes, ties and rests showing that they are all the same on drums. Not true for all instruments though. The tie on a snare vs. a trumpet mean very different musicals notations when it comes to playing.

[Dave_Major]

Cheers guys.

I understand the idea myself. i learnt it/understand it in the way I have been teaching (maths based) but was looking for extra teaching methods.

I will try the method you said jeff. Though I now need to explain how the notes breakdown (i have a sheet of note values which is cool)

THanks guys

Dave

[donv]

Cheers guys.

I understand the idea myself. i learnt it/understand it in the way I have been teaching (maths based) but was looking for extra teaching methods.

I will try the method you said jeff. Though I now need to explain how the notes breakdown (i have a sheet of note values which is cool)

THanks guys

Dave

If teaching I would make this clear. You learn this stuff slowly and as you do it more and more, you don't count dotted notes. You just play them because like breathing, it's second nature. I can't imagine trying to 1 e an ah 2 e an ah etc. everything. Wow, kind of the empitome of the feel vs. technique thing.

[Dave_Major]

Donv, I agree.

As with anything to more you do it the easier it becomes. Basic rock beat, polyrhythms etc. And also the more play the dotted 8th then a 16th and get used to that phrase and how it sounds it becomes second nature and you don't have to count all the time.

Dave

[thelimpingtoad]

I remember learning this with a clap slide kind of thing... where you clap down on the first note then slide your one hand down the other until you release... this might be helpful to teach for rhythmic values then you can introduce ties... then after they get that show them that you can write it as a dotted note or tie or note + rest... and explain that the dot is just more simple notation. Compare it maybe to an abbreviation... i was also thinking that maybe to show the comparison between note values you could use like glasses of water or something and pour half of one into the other to show a dotted value...
But i don't know the context of this instruction.. .like if you're teaching a kid behind a kit in a small room you might not have the space to show them stuff like this...
I liked to take a dry erase board to teach lessons so if you had one you could maybe illustrate it on the board...
no matter what you do with visual aides, or clapping or whatever... I think the students will need the basic understanding of it on a mathematical level... music is math no matter how you look at it... even guys that play by rote are still producing sound waves which can be expressed as frequencies and dynamics as decibals and note lengths as time/fractions...
It sucks for people like me that are really bad at math, but in the big picture it is elementary math for rhythmic values... like i said before, maybe looking at diagrams that are used to teach basic math like addition, division etc. might be helpful to find a couple of good visual aides to use for teaching these concepts.

[Geoff_fry01]

try using money.. £1 now turns into £1.50 once a dot is added..

for what its worth, I hate teaching dotted notes too...

[Fiery]

Draw a grid - one bar is consisted of sixteen empty squares. For each note value, fill in the appropriate number of squares. Ta-da! Use different colours for different note values too, or go for some kind of building blocks when working with kids.

[Boomka]

I'll sometimes explain them in the context of a dotted-eighth/sixteenth rhythm, so that they can see that the note carries the duration of three notes. I'll draw a group of 4 sixteenth notes and then immediately below draw a dotted-eighth/sixteenth rhythm. I'll write in the counts (1 e & a) aboved the sixteenth notes and then draw dotted lines downward to the dotted-eighth/sixteenth rhythm, showing where the notes line up and where the counts would be/are. From there, they can see how a dotted note takes up three notes and the fourth completes the set. Then, I can show them that if I extract the sixteenth and replace it with a sixteenth rest, I'm left with a dotted-eighth that takes up three sixteenths.

I can usually then move to doing groups of eighth notes to explain dotted quarters and so on.

[Boomka]

Draw a grid - one bar is consisted of sixteen empty squares. For each note value, fill in the appropriate number of squares. Ta-da! Use different colours for different note values too, or go for some kind of building blocks when working with kids.

I do this kind of thing as well. Explaining a grid/timeline from one barline to another.

[donv]

Wait until you have to explain half note triplets?

[ChipJohns]

...I'll write in the counts (1 e & a) ...


Even though so many years ago, I can remember learning dotted notes. I was taught using this method. Once I learned to count it out vocally, it was much easier to play...

Of course explaining the actual value of the dot I think is important too.

And, keeping the examples simple at first. Start using dotted quarter notes. Much easier to count. Then go to dotted 8th notes; then dotted 16th notes

Don't know about you , but, If I have a bit of a struggle, I'll count it out and it becomes much clearer.

count it out..! - gets my vote.

[Boomka]

Wait until you have to explain half note triplets?

Subdivide and conquer! For instance, accenting every second note of a bar of eighth-note triplets gives you a quarter-note triplet. Once they can do that, take out the unnaccented notes. Then you can follow the same process to get half-note triplets.

OR, you can simply move from accenting every second eighth-note triplet to every fourth note, giving the half-note triplet. The unaccented notes provide a rhythmic skeleton of subdivisions. Once they've been internalised by repetition and counting, they can be removed, but everytime you play a half-note-triplet, you'll hear them, keeping the triplet nicely spaced and related to the overall pulse.

OR, don't bother learning "half-note triplets" per se but work on understanding a 4:3 polyrhythm. Once you can hear that, it can be applied up and down the scale of subdivisions.

[donv]

Yup, I learned it via the 8th note triplets. My point was more for Dave to consider if a student is struggling with dotted notes and frustrating Dave, then this is going to come up again with triplets. They don't break down into money or even quarters with the notes, or the many other suggestions.

[Boomka]

Yup, I learned it via the 8th note triplets. My point was more for Dave to consider if a student is struggling with dotted notes and frustrating Dave, then this is going to come up again with triplets. They don't break down into money or even quarters with the notes, or the many other suggestions.

I know, I was just saying....

I think with triplets, I simply relate it to the pulse - i.e. cutting it in three rather than two/four. Cutting a bar of chocolate into three equal pieces, for example. Add in counting, and I've rarely had too much trouble teaching triplets. Maybe I've been lucky.

[2bsticks]

I found this and it helped me out a bit and I do struggle reading.
Dotted Notes & Rests:

Often, when reading music, you'll come across a note immediately followed by a small dot. The dot signifies that the preceding note is equal to the sum of it's own value, plus half it's value.

Not only can notes have a dot, but also rests may be dotted as well. The dot signifies the same thing for a rest as it does for the note. A dotted rest would equal the sum of it's own value, plus half it's value.

Example 1:
A dotted half note would equal three beats; the sum of it's value (two beats) plus half it's value (one beat).


Example 2:
A dotted quarter note would equal one and a half beats; the sum of it's value (one beat) plus half it's value (half of a beat).


Examples of Dotted Notes & Rests:

A Dotted Half Note:


A Dotted Quarter Note:


A Dotted Quarter Rest:

[wy yung]

HI JEff, I had a read through both of those threads. They turned out pretty heated!!!

However they all sort of stick to the same idea and the way I teach the concept. I am really looking for other ways that I could explain it to people who don't really get the maths thing.

For instance some kids don't like maths! and as soon as I begin talking about half the value again or something to that effect they switch off and don't take the idea in.

This is about the only thing I have to teach that I can't use an analagy for or have 3 different ways of explaining it that I can pull out of the bag if the student isn't grasping one way.

I hope you get what I am meaning.

Thanks

Dave


I use the pizza slice analogy. It's easy when the lesson's about pizza! If the pizza is cut into 4 slices and you want a dotted 1/4 note slice, what do you have to do? You have to cut one slice in two, so a dotted 1/4 note is one full and one half slice joined together.

Easy to understand and it tastes good too! ;-)

[Dave_Major]

Thanks everyone.

Wu - MMM pizza... have to use that one.

ITs actually really comforting to see that alot of the explanations I am using are used by other more experienced teachers. I have only been teaching for 18 months and am still feeling my way around alot of things.

Cheers

Dave

[The Colonel]

I would always plug my students in the Matrix and download the info directly to them. They all wanted kung fu, but I gave 'em dotted notes instead.


"I know dotted notes"


"...Show me"




Seriously though, I have found it helps for students to see the dotted notes juxtaposed with tied notes of equal length -

So with a dotted quarter, I would also do both quarter tied to an 8th note, AND three 8th notes tied - All in the same line - arranged so you could see them clearly and show and explain that all three of these things are given the same value. Then have the students CONT OUT LOUD as they play a very simple exercise of *dotted quarters" - then quarters-tied-to-an-8th, then three 8th notes tied - Count all of these out loud as their tapping their little dotted quarter length hearts out. Maybe put some bass drum quarters and hats on 2 & 4 eventually so they can get a feeling of the *RELATION* between the dotted notes and a consistent pulse within the meter (i.e. one note will be on the down, the next will be on the up, etc)

That's the main problem I've found with students. A seemingly simple dotted quarter throughout some 4/4 time can trip people up - especially counting-wise because in the early goings, it's difficult for some to carry over the barline - or count a second bar where the exact same thing is *not* played (starting with dotted quarters on 1, the next bar, the note is played on the & of 1...etc) That can be tricky. Even for intermediate students - you'll notice John Riley's "Beyond Bop" exercises start with this "phrasing in 3 over 4/4" from the get-go - and it can be difficult for people to grasp initially.

Part of that is from wanting to understand everything too quickly. Everyone wants immediate results. I was listening to an interesting podcast today with a guy from the mob who wrote a book about it and he said one of the main reasons the mafia is deteriorating is because no one wants to work up the ladder. They want the bling and the girls immediately (I guess we can blame/thank MTV Cribs for the destruction of organized crime!) - no one wants to start as a grunt anymore. No one wants to start as a shoe-shine boy on their way to being a Don...They just want the top immediately...

So with students, I ALWAYS stress every lesson: Practice it slowly - until you understand it. And once you understand it, keep practicing slowly, till you understand more about yourself *through* the exercise. THEN you can think about speeding it up.

Of course, some ignore this, and I see thin progress - meaning, they learn what's required, you warn (and warn and warn) that they're only learning on the surface... The students that take this to heart are the ones that are making All-State jazz band, and playing with some people who can really play - THAT has always made me more happy than getting the exercises [barely] competent for the next lesson. Cheesey, but "the tortoise wins the race" is very applicable in this regard.


Cheese Louise, I'm going on a tangent now...Anyway - yes - if needs be: SPELL IT OUT FOR THEM with those dotted notes. Show them all the ways you can write out the same notation - and make sure they understand each one. And make sure they understand that these are notes on pages, and the real understanding is the actual playing they'll be doing with those notes.

The more levels you can show/explain, the fuller the understanding will be.



...Ah, the Matrix would be nice at times, wouldn't it?

"Download all of Erik's BS"

[jeffwj]

Here's a lesson from the Vic Firth website.

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/features/webrhythms/05.html

Jeff

[Styx]

And what's worse is, just as they get the concept of the dotted note you need to try and explain the double dotted note. AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!!

[sciomako]

Dave,

I have an idea. How about you lay down a 16th-note grid and explain to your students a dotted 8th note means you "skip" one more cell?

[BillBachman]

A dotted note is equal to three notes of the next smallest subdivision.

[matthew]

When a note is dotted it is the same length as before plus another half.

i think this comes out verbally very clear and then people realise its not too difficult.

also i think the way you say it helps. if you make them think that you are having a hard time explaining it, instantly they mentally brace for a difficult concept, which only slows the process down because its not a difficult concept..


my 2 cents as a new drum teacher :)