Musical hangover - did I REALLY play THAT?

[Pollyanna]

Have you ever had a rehearsal and thought you played well? ... the band will be all smiles and everything feels great. But then you hear the recording of the songs the next day and the groove is so clunky that it's hard to understand why no one heard the clumsiness at the time.

If so, how do you fix problems if you can't hear them while you're playing? I've done lots of playing with the metronome at slow tempos and seem to hear the timing ok, yet in a band situation my ears seem to wallpaper over the cracks. The tempo is ok but the microtiming, as Lutz put it (maybe "millitiming" in my case) is not good. This seems to happen to others in my band as well.

Any ideas?

[keep it simple]

I've had that exact issue many times. It's so easy to get carried away in the practice. Sometimes I even treat a practice like a mini gig or similar. I often forget that a practice is exactly that, a practice. I play rock stuff and the finer nuances regularly disolve into the overall sound. I get the practice recording home and, as if by magic, the little annoying mistakes appear.

I use two fixes for this. I wear personally moulded ear protectors. These little beauties knock the volume down by about 20db and allow far greater examination of the playing whilst you're actually playing it. They promote a sort of detachment, as if you're listening to someone else's performance.

The other fix we use as a band is to break down the track into instrument pairs. We'll go through a track with only vocals & drums, or bass & vocals, or guitar & drums, etc. You get the idea. It just gets away from the "wall of sound" effect and allows proper examination of instrument interplay.

My little fixes work well in a rock setting but may prove less effective in other forms of music.

[larryace]

2 things that sprang to mind:

You're "coloring" the song, meaning you are not hearing it with 100% honesty. (as it is happening) That would be a listening skill that needs to be finer tuned. (Ypou don't drink alcohol when you play do you?

You're thinking too hard when you're playing. Just play the song, lighten up, concentrating on smoothness and the most even pulse ever. You already know what not to play

Wallpapering over the cracks...you write the best analogies
This reminds me of the deluding ourselves thread.
The way around it is to keep recording, keep listening, keep making adjustments, and listen with 1000% honesty, all while not thinking about the song, but feeling the pulse
I find that concentrating on keeping that quarter note pulse as steady as possible...even if you have microtiming issues, as long as they don't throw off the meter of that quarter note pulse, then it shouldn't be too noticeable.

Another thing is that if your hand technique is at a point where you have to think about it to pull off what you want to play....not good. To me the goal of technique is so you can forget about your hands and instead, redirect your brainpower to listen to the net effect, tempo, feel, listening and playing off of the other musicians etc. instead of using a portion of your brainpower to play that transition just right.

[TFITTING942]

haha sorry this is not a fix but..let me first say that in high school I was in a raock band that was second only to Van Halen themselves. And NONE of us, my modest self included, NEVER made any mistakes. so one night my bass players father brings over a camcoarder and a monitor and we play a bunch of songs. All the while thinking Led Zep themselves will call us up after hearing such a perfect rendition Rock and Roll and sign us to their label on the spot!..then....we played back the tape.....OUCH!!!!!!!!!!! boy did we suck! even me!!!!!! behind the beat on every song, sloppy fills, guitar solos played with the full fist, singer sounded like he was eating. oh well, the best dose of reality ever. and I still say Zep missed out on a tour with us, their loss!

[Jonesy]

One thing that has greatly improved my "microtiming" - along with my creativity and pulse - is having improv jams with my guitar player. It's taken a lot of jams to get to the point where we can just sit down and instantly come up with good music, but it was absolutely worth it. It's allowed me to know my abilities and limits very intimately, which allows me to feel quite comfortable while recording our improvs.

I recommend that everybody try out these improv jams, especially people who feel uncomfortable with their microtiming.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks v much for the comments, guys.

the finer nuances regularly disolve into the overall sound

Good point. The worst of the timing probs were in parts that were closest to rock, especially in solos when it's more lively and less structured. It seems my improv has gone downhill.

So Jonesy's idea would be useful if my band wasn't full of other old people caught up with work/partner/family stuff :( Maybe download some of the drummerless tracks and treat it like a jam?

Larry, I was relaxed in the rehearsal (and had just one drink, and that was after already playing for 2 hours). I wasn't getting hung up on my drumming, just working with the band sound. I really don't want to "think inwards" more to make sure I don't repeat those mistakes.

I leave lots of headroom and am not doing anything ambitious that requires me to think about technique. Or so I thought ... prob'ly deluding myself :( The worst moments seem to happen when I'm adding those little textures - ghosts, grace notes etc where I start dragging a bit and getting sloppy, so yeah, it looks like I should be spending some quality time with the pad to get my hands in better shape. I might ease off on the mini-comping and play things more straight this week and see how it comes out.

This comment of yours make sense too:

... keep recording, keep listening, keep making adjustments, and listen with 1000% honesty, all while not thinking about the song, but feeling the pulse

... concentrating on keeping that quarter note pulse as steady as possible...even if you have microtiming issues, as long as they don't throw off the meter of that quarter note pulse, then it shouldn't be too noticeable.

Yeah TFitting, I remember the first time I heard a recording of myself. It's sobering ...

[donv]

Have you ever had a rehearsal and thought you played well? ... the band will be all smiles and everything feels great. But then you hear the recording of the songs the next day and the groove is so clunky that it's hard to understand why no one heard the clumsiness at the time.

If so, how do you fix problems if you can't hear them while you're playing? I've done lots of playing with the metronome at slow tempos and seem to hear the timing ok, yet in a band situation my ears seem to wallpaper over the cracks. The tempo is ok but the microtiming, as Lutz put it (maybe "millitiming" in my case) is not good. This seems to happen to others in my band as well.

Any ideas?

Another rehash of the feel vs. technique thread? lol

Did you ever drink a little too much, play with a lot of feeling while thinking everything is great only to find out later everything wasn't so great? It doesn't always take a little too much of something to be all smiles and feeling good to find out later it really wasn't all that good. Everybody has good nights and bad nights whether rehearsing or playing and they come in every nuance you can imagine. Good days come when everyone is feeling lousey, and bad days can come when everyone is feeling great. For as long as you've been playing Polly the consideration maybe should be what's the exception and what's the rule? I imagine you've caught yourself in the "exception" and as suggested don't overthink it. But then again getting better isn't linear and maybe you've reached a point where your awareness is less group-centric and more music-centric. Another way of saying you're getting more particular to what you're hearing, and what you're hearing is nuance that most others would never hear or notice.

Check this out:

http://www.servethesong.net/nonmusicians-hear-music/

[Pollyanna]

Good insights, Don. Thx. I might pass on rehashing F vs T again :)

From what everyone's said it seems like the way to go is shrug it off, and maybe just pull back on the ghosting until I can be sure of pulling it off crisply with extra pad work. Loud music is a bit more forgiving when it comes to microtiming than the quiet stuff; you can be a bit less precise and it still works. It's a learning curve.

I liked the link about what non-musicians hear. I lost my muso ears when I stopped playing for 8 years and remember how it felt. The meaning of the song and the general mood mattered most, especially if it resonated with what was happening in my life or how I felt at the time. Cool riffs, beats and grooves were fun, strong melodies, something funny, something different. Music without those elements was just background, sometimes annoying, no matter how talented the players were.

Just had another listen to the stuffup and, yeah, non-musos wouldn't have a clue I did anything wrong, just sloppy timing and dragging a bit for a bar. I love other musos but I think I love non-musos more :)

[larryace]

Polly, I don't know if this will help, but try it, it's easy. Next time you're playing, focus on one point in the room, straight ahead (that's important) and above you. Keep your eyes open all the time while playing. I use my "peripherial hearing" and peripherial vision, and focusing on a point like at least 15 or 20 feet away gives me a larger "sound field" to listen to (hey it's probably in my head, but it works). This way my focus is away from the kit and I get a clearer picture of the total net effect of what the band sounds like. This really works wonders for me. When I find that I'm not liking things, usually it's because I'm staring at my hi hat and not listening to the big picture. So focus on a point well away from you and detach a bit, as if you are a listener, don't focus on your own playing, instead try and imagine that you're listening to yourself from afar. You can describe it as a shift in physical focus from close by to farther away. Like I said, this really makes a big difference in my playing.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Larry. I remember you describing that trick, along with treating it as the 50th take to prevent getting excited and having that kind of "Hey, that sounds cool" thought ruining the flow.

In fact, that's what I took into last rehearsal and I suspect that that, along with seeing a drummer in a blues band the night before, had a lot to do with why I played really well (for me) last week. But that glitch bugged me because I didn't realise I was doing it. I like to own my mistakes, not stuff 'em up.

I know I can't expect perfection because

1) I haven't played in this style in a band before. I played all styles to records eons ago but it's not the same

2) I've had a proper kit with a bass drum for only a matter of weeks

3) I am still learning to play quiet with very low hands (short swings). In the old days I used to really give the drums a good old caning.

Still, your suggestion (the one I quoted in the drumming wisdom) thread is the second most useful thing anyone has said to me about drumming - and the best commment about improving performance I've ever seen. True! :)

The most important comment re: drumming was about practising slow with a metronome.

[reso-shell]

i've played several gigs hungover and i always thought those were my best ones.
but i'm pretty sure i was just like "ahhh funk it who cares about stage fright and trying hard anyways"

[JimmyK]

I've felt this way too much. The best remedy is to record yourself with a metronome, on something with reasonable quality, so you can hear whats going on. It helps your ear a ton. Just listening back and going "wow that was awful, but I didn't even screw up" is pretty eye (and ear) opening. Being able to hear the flaws in your playing is THE key, because then you can correct them. Seriously...

Jimmy

[larryace]

I came up with a pretty good analogy of my philosophy I've developed about emotionally "detaching" from the song. (I'm not implying detaching from the rest of the band members)
I liken it to a brewmaster, brewing beer.
If the brewmaster imbibed his product while he is making it, it would likely come out all wrong, and people wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much.
I don't let myself "imbibe" the music, I just make it for the people to enjoy. It's not my time to enjoy it, it's theirs.
Works for me.

I get my pleasure on listening to the playback of the gig. I hate cringing at my playing and this has virtually eliminated the cringe factor for me.

[ChipJohns]

How long have you guys been playing together Pollyanna? Not having heard personally, of course, its really hard to say, but, it also sounds like it could be just a matter of not being tight as a band. If other members of the band feel the same way, it could just be this.!?!?

I've played with some and we just jived right away, it just clicked. Some others it would take longer to make the tight fit together. Yet, others, it would just never happen.

When a band isn't tight, you, the time keeper can feel responsible for it even when it's not your fault. When you (the drummer) try to compensate for others who can't stay with you, and listen to yourself afterwards, it may not be apparent what is actually happening. You may hear yourself not keeping a steady beat,and not realize you were just trying to keep everyone together; especially if it is very subtle..

Depending on the situation it is, at times, good to just jam for a while until you can get into a groove as a band. Not necessarily jumping right into working up material. Have fun together and just jam. Get comfortable with each other. It can help the overall "mojo" of the band. And when that happens working up new material is ten times easier. No more 5 hour practice sessions. 2 hours and you work up 3 or 4 songs..

Just a musing ..

[wy yung]

I believe it is better when playing music simply to give in to it. Try not to over think while playing.

Save practice for the practice room. Rehearsals are about fine tuning the band and the arrangements. Forget about the drumming.

Of course always record yourself and listen back. Recently a student playing funk was having trouble. So together we listened to a rehearsal and it was simply a matter of making a 16th note subdivision on the snare quieter to fix his groove in a song. Listening back always helps. The following week the groove sounded so much better.

[Pollyanna]

1. Larry ... LOL! Don't get drunk on the music, eh? Nice :) I think the key bit for me is imagining it's the 20th take and I'm ready to go home. Bizarrely, it makes me feel more confident, I suppse because it lowers my expectations.

2. Chip, we've been together as a group for around 6 months and I've used my current drum configuration for around 5 weeks; I now use a kick drum and used a stomp box before then. Yes, the rest of the band, apart from our singer, have weak time. I was chatting with a guitarist I played with from 1979 to 1985 who had great time and told him how much I missed playing with musos with a good inner clock.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I suspect I've underestimated the degree with which ragged bandmates can make it harder to keep solid yourself; I think I figured that if I held firm then they'd have to come with me, but if I "let go" a la Larry then I will necessarily adjust to them or things will go a bit out of synch. It's easier when Glenn's singing because I can work with him, and it's during the solos that things get woolly. I might push for songs with minimal instrumental passages :)

They're great people - smart and sane - but, yeah, they do add that extra layer of responsibility on me. I'm trying to work out how to coax them into simplifying their lines to a point where they can reliably nail it, but without coming across as over-serious. Our singer's on the same page as me in this but since I have the band experience (his experience is mostly as a solo act) he defers to me. I'm not a leader type IMO.

They are friends so I feel very comfortable in this band and would prefer not to dump them, even though I could do better. I guess it's a matter of chipping away (pun not intended, Chip :) at both my own reliability and theirs to get things sounding good.

3. Wy Hung and Jimmy, I agree. I have a Zoom H2 on order. I want to record my efforts on the practice pad and traumatise myself :)

Thanks all for your ideas so far, guys. I like your perspectives.

[JPW]

We have recorded every band session since we started so this "musical hangover" you speak of is really familiar for me. =) But I dunno I sort of expect it to happen that way these days so I'm actually only delighted when it doesn't happen. But I'm always trying to think positive. I try to remember the things I did right and what I did terribly wrong. Same thing goes with other band members, for every negative thing I try to say something positive. Usually the other musicians know where they played bad better than I do so I most of the time I try to only say something positive.

One good thing I have noticed is to listen back what I sounded like 6 or 12 months ago. If you have practiced regularly you should REALLY hear the difference. =)

But, I also have noticed that I play less creativily when we record. We always play the best impros when there's some problems with recording. Don't know if it actually true, but that's what it feels like. I think I play too safe when I know I'm recorded. =P

[Pollyanna]

I think I play too safe when I know I'm recorded.

Same here. It's only natural to play it safe when the tape's rolling. You want to do it in one take so your ears don't get fatigued. How'd it work out for you? Have you noticed a lot of difference over the past 12 months?

I'm cautious about looking at the good things because I don't want to try to replicate a moment of inspiration. Sometimes there's a thing that's good to keep but I unually prefer to respond to the moment afresh when doing improvs. It might turn out sucky but if I try to recapture a previous moment of magic and then fall short I feel I missed other opportunities to do the right thing for the music that was happen now.

Maybe Larry's advice is the answer to that too - get less excited, just lay it down with big ears and what comes out, comes out. Unless, of course, you're drumming for Steely Dan, in which case blind terror might be a sane response :)

Recording every practice is good because then it's situation normal. Tonight's practice was't good at first; most of us weren't quite there, but it was fun once we warmed up. We've all got a fair way to go before we're where we want to be musically but we're talking about timing and worked at it.

One answer is to arrange your part exactly. I did that in an 80s band, same thing every time. It's safe, but a bit of a drag after a while. Not sure how I'll approach things when we do a recording; we're lucky because our singer has a friend who likes his vocals and wants to pay for us to record some songs. Just a matter of tightening the playing to make the most of it.

[JPW]

Same here. It's only natural to play it safe when the tape's rolling. You want to do it in one take so your ears don't get fatigued. How'd it work out for you? Have you noticed a lot of difference over the past 12 months?

I'm cautious about looking at the good things because I don't want to try to replicate a moment of inspiration. Sometimes there's a thing that's good to keep but I unually prefer to respond to the moment afresh when doing improvs. It might turn out sucky but if I try to recapture a previous moment of magic and then fall short I feel I missed other opportunities to do the right thing for the music that was happen now.

Maybe Larry's advice is the answer to that too - get less excited, just lay it down with big ears and what comes out, comes out. Unless, of course, you're drumming for Steely Dan, in which case blind terror might be a sane response :)

Recording every practice is good because then it's situation normal. Tonight's practice was't good at first; most of us weren't quite there, but it was fun once we warmed up. We've all got a fair way to go before we're where we want to be musically but we're talking about timing and worked at it.

One answer is to arrange your part exactly. I did that in an 80s band, same thing every time. It's safe, but a bit of a drag after a while. Not sure how I'll approach things when we do a recording; we're lucky because our singer has a friend who likes his vocals and wants to pay for us to record some songs. Just a matter of tightening the playing to make the most of it.

Yes, we actually listened to some of our recordings from 12 months ago with my band mates and it was funny as hell. =P My time was all over the place, when improvising our average tempo was about 60 bpm lower. I had sloppy fills which always landed somewhere wrong. Let's just say it was embarasing. But then again it was a good thing, now I know we as a band have improved A LOT and we really shouldn't be so deprsessed about our playing as we are. At our worst we are now better than what we were 12 months ago. Of course the difference gets smaller and smaller when your group plays for years and years, but for now the difference is huge.

You are right about the good moments. Sometimes they are 'once in a lifetime' types of things that you just can't reproduce, but you can still try to analyze them, why did it sound so good in that situation and where could I use it elsewhere for example. During improvs I always try wild things just to listen to it later to know if there's anything good about it. Most of the time I have to just delete it from my memory but sometimes there are great ideas and I try to remember to work on them later to get it in to my muscle memory better.

I usually play too many fills and crashes and splashes, this is propably the most important thing I'm working on with my band right now. I'm by nature a really talkative person so I think it translates to music also. I just want to talk all the time. But I just need to give everybody a chance to say what they want without yelling over it on the background. But it's ok, my band mates are really nice people and we have a really healthy relationship for now where we can analyze these things quite objectively with each other. I know I'm lucky. There's just too many egoistic guitarists and singers out there. =P I don't really like to call it "overplaying" it's often misunderstood that drummer should just be a flesh metronome on the background. I'm not that sort of player. But I _would_ like to give other people a little space to speak too. =)

[larryace]

Hey Polly, if your band mates all had really even meter and a great sense of tempo, do you think your issues you speak of would largely disappear?

All musicians should work w/a metronome, just to be shown what perfect time sounds like. Besides drummers, I wonder what percentage of the other musicians actually do this. I'm guessing maybe 1%.

[zambizzi]

Hey Polly, if your band mates all had really even meter and a great sense of tempo, do you think your issues you speak of would largely disappear?

All musicians should work w/a metronome, just to be shown what perfect time sounds like. Besides drummers, I wonder what percentage of the other musicians actually do this. I'm guessing maybe 1%.

I met my first guitarist who does, recently. I haven't been playing long but I've maybe played w/ a few dozen people, so far. I now know one guy who likes to use a click - and he even admitted that he fought it for years, until he went into the studio and found that he had no choice, to get a good track.

The last guy I played with was a singer/songwriter who had amazing chops...but hated using a click when we'd try to lay down demo tracks. As a result, I could never get a nice sounding drum track. Very frustrating.

Even the *bassists* I've played with don't mind their time fluctuating. What is that!? No matter how good some of the folks are that I've hooked up with...I seem to be the only one that's ever concerned about tight time. It seems really odd to me. All music moves in time, not just the drums.

[donv]

Hey Polly, if your band mates all had really even meter and a great sense of tempo, do you think your issues you speak of would largely disappear?

All musicians should work w/a metronome, just to be shown what perfect time sounds like. Besides drummers, I wonder what percentage of the other musicians actually do this. I'm guessing maybe 1%.

It's amazing how many guitar players I've played with that can't tap their foot while playing unless they're strumming on the beat. Throw some syncopation into the strumming, and forget it. Problem is they usually blame the drummer for their shortcomings.

[larryace]

It is really a great thing when the string players have great meter and tempo. The band sounds so much tighter, and it makes me really happy to back them up. I always go out of my way to compliment any non drummer who clearly understands, and can play, steady meter and proper tempo.
Having a good sense of musical time takes quite a bit of skill.

[Pollyanna]

Hey Polly, if your band mates all had really even meter and a great sense of tempo, do you think your issues you speak of would largely disappear?

To some extent. You've heard my 80s playing - solid but I don't have the crispness to create a smooth groove like you do. I had the luxury in the 80s of having a guitarist in the band whose time was better than mine - you heard him in some of the songs you heard (the bluesier ones). Just a great natural inner clock and now he's playing with high level players. Our bassist then was a bit less gifted but rock solid. I was lucky to play with guys like that, although probably not as lucky as the singer we had - lol

I've never been a natural and long known that I don't have natural time. I worked my tush off when I was younger trying to make up for it. The metronome can get you kind of there, but the inner clock is another matter, more a body thing IMO, which you either have or you don't. Frustration with my lack of natural rhythmic talent played a major role in my moving into electronic music in 1987 for a while and later quitting from '98 to 2006. I probably should be playing grunge or rough blues and RnB a la The Stones.

[larryace]

I'm surprised to hear you say that Polly, about not having natural time. I never did either. It just keeps developing. The recorder is my teacher anymore. It dictates what is needed, what should be rethought, what was too fast etc. I feel that you're in a perfect place to be the drummer you want to be. You know what to leave out (which is already a high level of understanding of things) You want to be solid (I think you're very solid and crisp already, but I haven't heard anything from you this year) And I think you know what it takes to be what you want to be. You sound kinda hard on yourself. (lack of rhythmic talent? Cmon you have rhythmic talent!) I think you're an awesome player.
Maybe you just need some reassurance. I think you're a very conscientious player who understands what the role of the drums are, and who makes that knowledge translate well onto the kit. I understand what it feels like when you're not happy with your playing, but you don't lack rhythmic ability sheesh! I'd love to hear these rehearsals for myself and listen to your critiques. Somebody needs a hug.