German Grip

[jjmrvz]

Hey I've been playing for four years now but lately my teacher has been pointing out that my sticks are at the 2nd joint in my index finger and not the first and that there is no space between my thumb and index. I try and correct this all the time but I always feel uncomfortable and I lose my speed and strength doing this because the sticks slip and I can barely use my fingers without it sliding up to the second joint and losing the space. I can do this slowly with all wrist but no fingers. Is this because I've been practicing bad technique and what should I do to help myself correct this problem?

[Ian Ballard]

Hey I've been playing for four years now but lately my teacher has been pointing out that my sticks are at the 2nd joint in my index finger and not the first and that there is no space between my thumb and index. I try and correct this all the time but I always feel uncomfortable and I lose my speed and strength doing this because the sticks slip and I can barely use my fingers without it sliding up to the second joint and losing the space. I can do this slowly with all wrist but no fingers. Is this because I've been practicing bad technique and what should I do to help myself correct this problem?

I know a lot of these guys like that "closed gap" thing, but it goes against your body. When you clench your thumb and index together, it tightens the muscles and restricts movement. Why on Earth would you WANT to restrict movement and tighten your muscles on purpose?

Also, wrist techniques in German grip are being shown (I know players personally) to cause carpel-tunnel syndrome, since your carpel bones are being compressed against your wrist bones.

Watch one of the world's greatest technicians, Jim Kilpatrick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RzQMT1lt1E

Notice he does not close the gap and he uses his arms and natural movements, rather than any constricted, tight movements. The only thing tight about Jim Kilpatrick is his sound.

If your teacher wants to argue, have him watch this guy.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

.......Also, wrist techniques in German grip are being shown (I know players personally) to cause carpel-tunnel syndrome, since your carpel bones are being compressed against your wrist bones.

Not true. If played correctly, German grip is completely safe and sound. I am living proof, I have played at least 1000 hours German grip over the past years and my hands and wrists are stronger than ever. All it takes is practice, a master teacher, and a lot of hours.

Knowing players with incorrect technique is not an indictment on the technique.

Casper

[Boomka]

I know a lot of these guys like that "closed gap" thing, but it goes against your body. When you clench your thumb and index together, it tightens the muscles and restricts movement. Why on Earth would you WANT to restrict movement and tighten your muscles on purpose?

Also, wrist techniques in German grip are being shown (I know players personally) to cause carpel-tunnel syndrome, since your carpel bones are being compressed against your wrist bones.

Watch one of the world's greatest technicians, Jim Kilpatrick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RzQMT1lt1E

Notice he does not close the gap and he uses his arms and natural movements, rather than any constricted, tight movements. The only thing tight about Jim Kilpatrick is his sound.

If your teacher wants to argue, have him watch this guy.

Good call on Jim, he has a lovely touch and phenomenal control. But if we all imitated the "House of Duthart" we'd have our pinkies hanging off the stick on the RH and would control our LH trad strokes with our thumbs. It's not for everyone, though I agree his RH has a beautifully relaxed shape and motion about it.

[Ian Ballard]

Not true. If played correctly, German grip is completely safe and sound. I am living proof, I have played at least 1000 hours German grip over the past years and my hands and wrists are stronger than ever. All it takes is practice, a master teacher, and a lot of hours.

Knowing players with incorrect technique is not an indictment on the technique.

Casper

I think that wrist techniques are poorly taught, as a rule, in lots of drum lines. I was even "taught" that tight German grip by Jim Riley (Rascal Flatts, etc), but I eventually moved towards a more Buddy meets Tony sort of thing. I prefer rotating my wrist, rather than straight up and down wrist strokes, because I'm able to be more fluid around the kit. If you are strictly a marching guy, maybe it's a different thing.

If it works for you, great. But I don't teach it, since I've been studying loads of kinematics as it relates to the body and drumming; it would seem that such a technique should be used LESS than a rotation, since the natural movement of the rotation is greater than the capability of the up/down strokes.

French and German, in a strict sense, are being phased out, from an evolutionary standpoint--mostly by drum set players. The reason, is because players are evolving techniques and applying real body mechanics to it, rather than simply approaching it from "tradition" standpoints. Even "traditional grip", is nowhere near what it was 140 years ago.

[JPW]

The difficult thing about these discussions is that there should be a clear standard for each grip and every person who contributes to the discussion should have the same definitions. Many times I hear people using 'french' grip and yet they aren't rotating their wrists in the way it should in the french grip. Then there's the french-german hybrid and the plain german grip and I honestly have no clue where to draw the line between these things.

And if (statistically speaking) german grip was more prone to cause carpel tunnel it could be two things, it objectively causes it wihtout dependening on execution or only causes it more frequently with bad execution. In the latter case it's more about teaching methods than the technique itself. Also there are far less people using ONLY french grip than there are german or hybrid users so of course there will be more people using german grip with carpel tunnel. So this needs a lot more investigation to be sure.

But yes, things are evolving and it's a good thing.

I have studied free-stroke for a while (in the german sort of grip, big gap between thumb and index finger, very loose grip) and I just had this theory that maybe this technique is that good because not only does the down-up-motion reduce energy consuption but I think it acts as a mild plyometric excercise. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics

Because I have had a wrist fracture in my left hand I propably can't use french grip with the radius-ulna rotation without an corrective operation. So I find myself evolving in to a german hybrid type of technique. Also, because of the fracture my left hand's carpel tunnel is quite tight so I would definitely notice immediately if the technique is putting pressure on it.

[T-1000]

The difficult thing about these discussions is that there should be a clear standard for each grip and every person who contributes to the discussion should have the same definitions. Many times I hear people using 'french' grip and yet they aren't rotating their wrists in the way it should in the french grip. Then there's the french-german hybrid and the plain german grip and I honestly have no clue where to draw the line between these things.

Yeah, I'm similarly confused by his topic.

When in French grip, the broad part of your wrist will be perpendicular to the floor (as opposed to German grip where the broad part of your wrist will be parallel to the floor). Now, in French grip, if you try to execute a downstroke as you would in German grip by flexing your hand at the wrist joint, the stick will simply move sideways - skimming the surface of the drum and not hitting it. To actually hit the drum on a downstroke while the broad part of your wrist is perpendicular to the floor you can either bend your wrist SIDEWAYS (in German grip, this would just cause the stick to move sideways and skim the surface of the drum rather than hit it) OR rotate your forearm clockwise (with the wrist joint itself locked).

Apparently the 'correct' way is the latter: rotating the forearm clockwise. This, however feels unnatural in the extreme to me and I can't imagine anyone playing with any speed or fluidity in this way, but I'm sure people can...

You would need to completely retrain your technique as this motion uses entirely different muscle groupings from the German grip.

So can anyone comment on whether they find they can play naturally with the rotating of the forearm in pure French grip?

(Please note this does not include using the fingers in French grip - that DOES feel natural and it's a whole separate issue(!))

[Ian Ballard]

Yeah, I'm similarly confused by his topic.

When in French grip, the broad part of your wrist will be perpendicular to the floor (as opposed to German grip where the broad part of your wrist will be parallel to the floor). Now, in French grip, if you try to execute a downstroke as you would in German grip by flexing your hand at the wrist joint, the stick will simply move sideways - skimming the surface of the drum and not hitting it. To actually hit the drum on a downstroke while the broad part of your wrist is perpendicular to the floor you can either bend your wrist SIDEWAYS (in German grip, this would just cause the stick to move sideways and skim the surface of the drum rather than hit it) OR rotate your forearm clockwise (with the wrist joint itself locked).

Apparently the 'correct' way is the latter: rotating the forearm clockwise. This, however feels unnatural in the extreme to me and I can't imagine anyone playing with any speed or fluidity in this way, but I'm sure people can...

You would need to completely retrain your technique as this motion uses entirely different muscle groupings from the German grip.

So can anyone comment on whether they find they can play naturally with the rotating of the forearm in pure French grip?

(Please note this does not include using the fingers in French grip - that DOES feel natural and it's a whole separate issue(!))

I can simplify a response by stating that, if it moves easily and with more range of motion and less stress on muscles or tendons/ligaments, it's probably a natural motion. In French-style, it's difficult to move the wrist up and down (although you see the likes of Bonham doing it from time to time), so it's generally not done. Likewise, strict German grip's attempt to move up and down, is also hampered by a somewhat restrictive, but less so, movement. Hence, the development of "American grip" or "center stage". The former is used by many including Jo-Jo Mayer and the latter is used by Terry Bozzio and some others.

I believe range-of-motion and adapting a grip to work as easily as possible (I'm a huge advocate of the free-stroke and Moeller), producing the widest dynamics possible is generally the best.

If your teacher prefers you use German and you have problems, it may be that German is not for you. Sure, you could develop it, but I find strict German grip, as is the case with a strict French, are applicable for specific purposes; they fall flat, however in an attempt to be all-around versatile.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I think that wrist techniques are poorly taught, as a rule, in lots of drum lines. I was even "taught" that tight German grip by Jim Riley (Rascal Flatts, etc), but I eventually moved towards a more Buddy meets Tony sort of thing. I prefer rotating my wrist, rather than straight up and down wrist strokes, because I'm able to be more fluid around the kit. If you are strictly a marching guy, maybe it's a different thing.

If it works for you, great. But I don't teach it, since I've been studying loads of kinematics as it relates to the body and drumming; it would seem that such a technique should be used LESS than a rotation, since the natural movement of the rotation is greater than the capability of the up/down strokes.

French and German, in a strict sense, are being phased out, from an evolutionary standpoint--mostly by drum set players. The reason, is because players are evolving techniques and applying real body mechanics to it, rather than simply approaching it from "tradition" standpoints. Even "traditional grip", is nowhere near what it was 140 years ago.

I agree, they sometimes are. That means nothing about the techniques, however. I was taught these grips by Dom Famularo, who is a relaxation, ease of movement and execution guru. So, anything coming out of his shop won't hurt anyone.

But some teachers should have their license revoked!

German and French, when taught and played correctly, will always be around in that they represent points of rotation of the forearm rather than "grips". Since a drumset player rotates his or her arms to reach the different instruments (think of a right hand playing the floor tom versus left hand on a left side cymbal), he or she will naturally go to these grips all the time. Also, for matched grip players, soft snare comping in French is common.

Casper

[Ian Ballard]

I agree, they sometimes are. That means nothing about the techniques, however. I was taught these grips by Dom Famularo, who is a relaxation, ease of movement and execution guru. So, anything coming out of his shop won't hurt anyone.

But some teachers should have their license revoked!

German and French, when taught and played correctly, will always be around in that they represent points of rotation of the forearm rather than "grips". Since a drumset player rotates his or her arms to reach the different instruments (think of a right hand playing the floor tom versus left hand on a left side cymbal), he or she will naturally go to these grips all the time. Also, for matched grip players, soft snare comping in French is common.

Casper

I will have to interject that Jim was an AWESOME teacher and an even more AWESOME player. He teaches German grip in a very sound and quality way. I just have evolved my own style away from that in 13 years.

But further, I might add, drum teachers don't need licenses. ;)

Although I will also add that free-markets tend to weed out bad teachers without the need for licenses. After all, even fully-licensed doctors make deadly mistakes everyday. :)