A buzz/press roll question ...

[AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken]

I'm trying to learn how to do buzz/press rolls. Back when I had a teacher he told me to 'warm up' to them by just trying to get as much sustain as I could out of each hand, working with positioning and squeezing the stick to get the longest buzz out of each hand possible, then work the hands together to create a sustained buzz.

I know that's a very high-level description (one of the reasons I stopped going to lessons was he couldn't offer any suggestions to help me get better other than to 'keep trying', which I realize is a large part of it, but lack of specific instruction was very frustrating). But that's how I've been working. And I still suck at it, but I can get some uneven-sounding buzzing going.

What confuses me is the meter. Is there a correct meter/tempo for alternating the hands? Take jazz for example: if I'm keeping time and then want to do a full-measure buzz, should my hands alternate as full notes, half-notes, eighth notes, triplets?

One of the things that makes this confusing is that people who are actually good at these rolls create such a smooth, purring sound that I can't hear where the hands alternate. I'm still at the thud/death-rattle stage, though ...

Any other tips on buzzing/rolling would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Pollyanna]

Hey ATCNAT, have you seen the need help with press rolls thread (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50147)?

Lots of good advice there and Boomka, as usual, is a mine of information.

[CJM]

Hey ATCNAT, have you seen the need help with press rolls thread (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50147)?

Lots of good advice there and Boomka, as usual, is a mine of information.


+1 Boomka's advice was so good I printed it out and keep it next to me when I practice buzz rolls, which will be every day til I get the sucker down.

[sciomako]

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare8.html
http://www.vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html

[caddywumpus]

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare8.html

Whoa whoa whoa WHOA!!!! Did I hear him right?

"The common problem for some students is they'll try and have two separate strokes for the double bounce. You only want one stroke which produces a double bounce as opposed to playing each note with a different stroke."

Where is this double bounce roll in the 40 rudiments? I only see a double STROKE roll.

...sorry, that's a big pet peeve of mine. Anyways, one of the things that he did, but didn't talk about, was the idea of releasing the pressure on the stick as the bounces got smaller. That way, it allows you to get the maximum number of bounces at the beginning of the roll (adding pressure to the fulcrum) and at the end (releasing pressure to the fulcrum). It's called the "press-release" method, and it produces the smoothest buzz roll by allowing each of your hands to roll, individually, for the longest possible time.

[Monica McCoy]

When I was first learning them teach had me focus on picking up the stick at the end of each stroke and just getting slow even-sounding buzz. Another thing was to draw the tip slightly toward me so it made this sort of *bloop* sound.

Once I had been doing this for several months and building up speed he showed me how to control the volume using my arms. From there, counting them was pretty easy. You can count it however you want.

The Stick Control book has some exercises where you alternate 8th note rudiments with the buzz roll which helps to incorporate the technique into your repertoire.

Having a teacher really makes a ton of difference because instead of reading long descriptive techniques, you sit across from a pro and copy what they do. It's a lot easier to learn that way.

Also make sure you have the sticks resting across the knuckles closest to your finger tips. You can't get that crisp tearing sound with the sticks riding high in the hand.

I pinch more with my middle and ring fingers and the index finger is just sort of resting on the stick ensuring it's traveling straight up and down.

Good luck.

[jeffwj]

Since your last teacher couldn't help you, try taking a lesson from one of the classical percussionists in your area. Try looking for a university percussion instructor or a percussionist of the closest major orchestra. They need to be able to play and explain closed rolls.

Check out Ted Atkatz presenting a snare drum clinic.
http://vicfirth.com/education/atkatz_pasic08.html

Jeff

[Boomka]

Since your last teacher couldn't help you, try taking a lesson from one of the classical percussionists in your area. Try looking for a university percussion instructor or a percussionist of the closest major orchestra. They need to be able to play and explain closed rolls.

Check out Ted Atkatz presenting a snare drum clinic.
http://vicfirth.com/education/atkatz_pasic08.html

Jeff

I love those videos. Everyone should watch Ted's entire presentation there. It's excellent, and he's such a great character.

His "Chicken Wing" thing is what I've always known as the "Whipped Cream" roll. I've been using it for years for rolls above the piano/mezzo piano range. I only teach that after my students have decent command of their buzzes from a low height with a largely straight up and down action. I like what he says about the sound/volume difference of pulling the stick toward the centre of the head - i.e. it gets louder which compensates somewhat for the tendency of the bounces to get lower and softer as the stick loses energy. I thought that was such an interesting point.

Anyway, Jeff, this advice is spot on. I got lucky and have had a lot of contact with classical/symphonic players since I was young, and they've really helped me with a lot of stuff concerning touch, control and shading. Unlike we kit players, their focus isn't drawn as much to steady timekeeping, independence/coordination, etc. Rather, they focus so much on sound and texture. It's always a real eye-opener for me when I get to see them talk/play.

[Boomka]

Hey ATCNAT, have you seen the need help with press rolls thread (http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50147)?

Lots of good advice there and Boomka, as usual, is a mine of information.

Thanks for the kudos, but I'm just passing on what was passed on to me.

That said, my advice in that thread is a little incomplete. The "no pressing" thing is largely for beginners so that they don't try ramming the stick into the head, or dragging it sideways willy-nilly, in order to try to get their buzzes, which is usually what you see people do. As the volume increases (Caddywumpus mentions this above) there has to be some pressure applied to the fulcrum so that the distance between the first two bounces isn't too long. The higher the initial strike, the bigger the problem... However, my own experience (aided by some good teachers) was that once I got the fine motor control to get a good buzz happening at low-volume and low-tempos, learning to apply pressure to control the stick for higher volume buzz rolls was a lot simpler. Then, applying techniques like the "Chicken Wing" in the Ted Atkatz (IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THEM YET, DO IT NOW) videos above is simplified somewhat because it all comes down to fine motor control with buzzes.

If you try to teach someone the "Chicken Wing" from day one, they usually pull the stick across the head in such a way that it just slides, or only strikes once or twice. The touch to be able to control the buzzing of the stick while turning your arms that way needs to come first, IMO.

[Boomka]

Having a teacher really makes a ton of difference because instead of reading long descriptive techniques, you sit across from a pro and copy what they do. It's a lot easier to learn that way.

Bullseye! And to me, videos don't quite cut it because there is no immediate feedback. It's easy to think we're doing what we're seeing, but not really be doing it. Youtube is easy and nearly instant, but personal contact is where it's at.

[CJM]

Also make sure you have the sticks resting across the knuckles closest to your finger tips. You can't get that crisp tearing sound with the sticks riding high in the hand.

I pinch more with my middle and ring fingers and the index finger is just sort of resting on the stick ensuring it's traveling straight up and down.

Good luck.

Monica, you're talking trad grip here, right? I'm having trouble finding videos of anyone using that for buzz rolls. Is it normal for the fingers in the left hand to come up off the stick to let the thing bounce? The only trad grip video I found was of a guy in Poland and his fingers are WAY off..

My teacher is trying to get me to grip the stick better, and I am doing better at that now for other rudiments, but it just doesn't seem natural to have the middle and index fingers firmly on top if you want multiple bounces.

[Monica McCoy]

No. I play matched grip.

When I play soft or buzz rolls I drop the stick to the knuckles near the tips of my fingers so I can create a delicate fulcrum. At normal or loud volumes I have the stick at the knuckles where the finger meets the hand. When I play Moeller the stick is on my middle knuckles.