Question about the thumb in push-pull technique

[T-1000]

What role does the thumb play in push-pull technique at high speeds?

At high speeds, is it the main/only instigator of the 'down' stroke (or, the 'push' part of the technique) ie. does it physically move to push the stick down - OR, does it merely add downwards pressure thus making it easier to shorten the rebound of the 'pull' part of the stroke with the actual down-stroke being generated by a small wrist movement?

And, in both cases, how important is it to have that bend in the first crease of the thumb? I know Jojo Mayer has this bend in his thumb when he does the push/pull but I've also seen it done as fast (or very nearly) as him where the thumb appears not to be bent at the first crease (the thumb still actually moves when the technique is being performed, however).

Thanks in advance for replies!!

[abe]

If you play louder push-pull, the thumb adds extra inertia since basically 'push' is generated from wrist. If you play softer push-pull, the thumb becomes main 'push' generator. IN this video you can see that it can be very effective when riding fast one-handed. Watch it from 5:40. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OkRRa8Appk
Less thumb = more wrist.

[T-1000]

So, in order to play at the fastest speeds possible with the technique the thumb has to be the main 'pusher' in the down stroke?

[abe]

So, in order to play at the fastest speeds possible with the technique the thumb has to be the main 'pusher' in the down stroke?

Well the wrist still pushes but its motion get's smaller and weaker. This goes well with Mayer's own philosophy that guy's like Buddy where so good at one handed rolls because they could isolate moves. He thinks that you can get faster by using smaller muscle groups; and thumb of course has smaller muscles in it then wrist. Push-pull is basically use of two motions which distributes amount of work to two 'motion generators' -wrist/thumb and fingers, and use of smaller muscles' speed advantage.

From other side there are guys who play as fast with pure wrists. However to get to that level it takes a lot of time, very good practice methode and a lot of work.

Be careful not to strain your thumb.

[T-1000]

Hey, that's an interesting post. But actually, for push-pull, if you think about it logically, if you are truly getting two strokes for one, then the wrist moves only once downwards for every two hits generated from the full stroke.

This should mean that if you've truly mastered the mechanics of the motion the technique should be possible to do at the fastest speeds using the wrist as the main down-stoke motor because essentially, for example, even if you were able to play at quarter notes at 350bpm, the wrist itself would only be playing at 175bpm - which is a speed easily attainable by most people...

Is this not so?

[Tim Waterson]

So, in order to play at the fastest speeds possible with the technique the thumb has to be the main 'pusher' in the down stroke?
There are many variations of push pull or open close technique.
Sometimes i do NOT bend my thumb at depends on what I want to do with my hands.
I showed JO JO my sliding thumb technique variations.he said once I get power I will have something great so Im practicing LOL
Overall I think the bent thumb gives you more control to accent as opposed to just speed.
Tim