Trad Advice

[andSometimesY]

I have been playing drums for roughly four years now and 99% of my experience has been with matched grip. I can play beats and such using trad, but I am never confident enough with it to use it in a gig. It seems that when I watch the pros (Antonio Sanchez, any jazz great) they get grace notes that are much more fluid by using traditional grip. I never feel like putting in the time to get good with it. I have asked my drum teacher (who plays trad 99% of time) if it is important that I learn to play trad, and he always seems to brush off the question. So I ask you guys: Is it important that I get comfortable with traditional grip?

[Clayton_C]

I recently adopted trad grip, and in fact it has caused my ability to play tasteful grace notes and ghost notes tremendously. I have also noticed that I seem to be able to play some around-the-set rudimental ideas a little more comfortably. But in general, I switch back and forth between traditional and matched for different feels. When playing jazz (which is about 85% of my practice and performance playing), I play with my left hand traditional and my ride hand tends to go French on the cymbals and switch to more American for snare and tom work. I guess I like the rebound French grip gives you for cymbals, whereas my finger control suffers if I play French on drums.

I would highly recommend learning Trad, if only to say you have tried it. A lot of times, when you try out a new setup or paradigm, you end up learning a LOT even if you end up switching back later.

[Styx]

Guys who don't play Trad knock it, and those that do play it, love it. I'd go with the guys that have tried it and love it. Practice it daily and you too will one day see the benefits of playing trad. Besides, it looks cool.

[Pollyanna]

I've always used matched grip but since starting using brushes in a quiet band I've had to switch to trad for songs that require sweeping. It helps get my elbow away from my body and makes it easier to add accents by keeping the wrist/forearm motion steady and pulling my finger in.

[cnw60]

There's really no physical reason why you might be able to play better grace notes with trad grip than with matched grip. Stick control is stick control - regardless of how you hold 'em.

However you practice is how you'll be better. That said - there's no harm experimenting with trad grip.

and - Pollyanna raises a good point about brushes and how the mechanics of sweeping works better with trad grip.

[Cadet311]

There's really no physical reason why you might be able to play better grace notes with trad grip than with matched grip. Stick control is stick control - regardless of how you hold 'em.



There are different muscles involved, though. I think it's 4 for tradish versus 12-13(?) for matched. That could be one answer.

[cnw60]

There are different muscles involved, though. I think it's 4 for tradish versus 12-13(?) for matched. That could be one answer.

that's true - but I still think it comes down to control and practice.

It's hard to pin down really - I learned to play trad (a long time ago), changed to matched grip (also a long time ago) and I still switch back and forth while playing, although it's mostly matched grip these days. So I know that trad feels different than matched, and that I (again) feel more comfortable playing jazz rhythms with my left hand holding the stick traditionally - but I believe it has more to do with the fact that I learned to play that way originally than it does with anything inherent to the grip itself.

If you break it down - what's a grace note or a ghost note other than just a double stroke with an accent? If you're a trad grip player - can you play doubles (or singles or triples or quads,...) faster or more controlled with your left hand than your right hand? Probably not unless you're left handed - so the difference in grips doesn't really matter - what matters is how you practice. It does feel different playing trad, but objectively that's not the same as saying it's better or easier.

to change the subject a little - one of the biggest differences between matched grip and trad grip is that you would probably set up your drums differently depending on which grip you use. Matched grip players would find it really hard to play on Buddy Rich's snare drum, with it angled away from them, and a traditional grip player would probably have a really hard time on Bill Bruford's, flat tom, symmetrical set up. So in that respect - one grip might be better than the other depending on the kit you're playing at the moment.

[CJM]

I learned trad many years ago, though not well and I have a rudiments teacher working with me on it. He said it could take a year of intense practice to straighten it out. I picked up some bad habits over the years.

I practice both ways, and I'm thinking I could transition over to complete matched faster than I could fix my flawed grad grip. I feel comfortable with trad but am realizing now I really do need to angle the snare Buddy Rich-style because the angle of the stick is different when you're doing it right.

Bottom line, I see no advantage with trad except for brushes as Pollyanna has noted.

[FunkyJazzer]

It helps get my elbow away from my body


Woah just thought I'd chime in here. Why would you want that? If you're supporting your elbow instead of relaxing it against your body, you are using a high amount of energy for no reason. You will immediately employ the use of shoulders and upper arms unnecessarily. I've always been of the opinion that as much work as possible (or as little work, I should say) should be done with the wrists - possibly fingers if you're into that kind of thing. When I play on the snare or pad, I don't feel anything above the wrist really.

Am I misreading your post? Sorry if I am.


Lloyd.

[TomRichwood]

I practice both but never really seen much difference between the sound and volume of the ghost notes, if your comfortable with both i don't think it makes all that much difference even though you would be using slightly more muscle groups in matched than in trad grip.
Saying that though using trad grip does allow you to angle the stick up so you can play directly on the tip of the stick to get to the real quiet end of dynamics, trying to do the same with matched can be quite akward.

[Pollyanna]

Why would you want that? If you're supporting your elbow instead of relaxing it against your body, you are using a high amount of energy for no reason. You will immediately employ the use of shoulders and upper arms unnecessarily.

I have no idea why, Lloyd :D

It just feels more comfortable for me. I just got on the brushes now to see what was happening ... it seems that, when sweeping with matched grip, my body doesn't support me so much as it gets in the way (female body fat ratio? lol).

If others here hadn't agreed re: trad grip and brushes I might have figured it was because my technique isn't there.

Originally trad for brushes was suggested to me by a guy in a drum shop who is a much better player than me. At first I resisted because trad grip's always been alien to me but I was having trouble keeping the sweep even. So I tried trad again and it felt better and worked better.

Of course, there are heaps of good players using either grip, so I'm not advocating for one or the other.

[FunkyJazzer]

I have no idea why, Lloyd :D

It just feels more comfortable for me. I just got on the brushes now to see what was happening ... it seems that, when sweeping with matched grip, my body doesn't support me so much as it gets in the way (female body fat ratio? lol).

If others here hadn't agreed re: trad grip and brushes I might have figured it was because my technique isn't there.

Originally trad for brushes was suggested to me by a guy in a drum shop who is a much better player than me. At first I resisted because trad grip's always been alien to me but I was having trouble keeping the sweep even. So I tried trad again and it felt better and worked better.

Of course, there are heaps of good players using either grip, so I'm not advocating for one or the other.


Hmm. Ok.

Well in my experience (I play traditional all the time these days), I've no reason to believe that one grip is easier than the other whilst using brushes.

[Pollyanna]

LOL ... I see your "hmm" as "her arms are moving too much but I'll leave her to it". I guess 20-something years of rock bands can do that you if you're not careful :)

Do you know of any exercises for loosening up your wrists? Ideally, something that you could work on while waiting for trains / lifts etc.

Cheers

[brittc89]

LOL ... I see your "hmm" as "her arms are moving too much but I'll leave her to it". I guess 20-something years of rock bands can do that you if you're not careful :)

Do you know of any exercises for loosening up your wrists? Ideally, something that you could work on while waiting for trains / lifts etc.

Cheers

You could work on deep breathing exercises to loosen everything in general and just work on relaxing. Breathing is a really important part of drumming that many overlook. A lot of people will held their breath, especially when playing something uncomfortable and it results in a lot of tension. So much of playing is mind over matter. A lot of my practice is more of a personal meditation experience than something mentally taxing (although, believe me I get frustrated plenty). Staying loose, in my opinion, is something you teach your mind, not your body.

[Pollyanna]

Thanks Britt. I like that advice, although I still think some exercises might help too :)

[andSometimesY]

Thank you for responding, guys. I haven't had time to get on for a couple of days but I just read all of the posts. What I meant about the grace notes is that when you are playing trad, you have a different stick angle to work with, so you can use the very tip of the stick to hit the snare. Also, it seems as if upstrokes (i use those for ghost notes a lot) would be easier with traditional. I think that to get notes really accented with trad, you have to use some arm movement (wrist can't move stick up as much), and that seems like it may be a disadvantage. I don't know, I think I should get comfortable with it, just so I have it in my array of drum techniques in case of emergency. It will also add a bit of variety and make stuff that is now easy for me challenging again. I just need to make sure I'm using proper technique.

[aruration]

If you practice trad grip it will certainly do you no harm.

[Cadet311]

If you break it down - what's a grace note or a ghost note other than just a double stroke with an accent?


A grace note has no rhythmic value while a ghost note does.

[Ian Ballard]

If you practice trad grip it will certainly do you no harm.

They are synonyms. The are the same thing.

[Cadet311]

They are synonyms. The are the same thing.

Were you quoting my ghost/grace statement? If so, they are two different things. A grace note has no rhythmic value while a ghost note does. For example, a flam.

[brittc89]

Were you quoting my ghost/grace statement? If so, they are two different things. A ghost note has no rhythmic value while a grace note does. For example, a flam.

Everything has rhythmic value.

[andSometimesY]

I think he means that it has no rhythmic value by itself. Grace notes accompany main notes, and the two are counted as one together.

EDIT: Never mind, he is saying that a ghost note has no rhythmic value, and I believe that ghost notes do have a rhythmic value.

[Cadet311]

EDIT: Never mind, he is saying that a ghost note has no rhythmic value, and I believe that ghost notes do have a rhythmic value.

You're right, and I typoed. I was trying to punch in an answer before class and confused the two in my 15 second reply lol.

My first mention of the two in the thread was what I meant. Grace noted are attached to a note whereas ghost notes have a rhythmic value.

[donv]

If anyone is interested, look up appoggiatura and acciaccatura as related to drums and drum notation.

Does a grace note get played on the count or the principle\primary note? If before the count, how much before? If on the count, the same question goes for where in the count does the principle note get played then? There actually is quite a bit to this and to many this topic involves the highest standards of measuring and playing note values.

Both have rhythmic value but they very much not the same thing.

[andSometimesY]

Grace notes may have rhythmic value if you want to dive deep enough and do research on them (which actually sounds fun), but on the surface level, they have no definitive rhythmic value.

[donv]

Grace notes may have rhythmic value if you want to dive deep enough and do research on them (which actually sounds fun), but on the surface level, they have no definitive rhythmic value.

What would a ruff, drag, ratamacue, swiss army triplet, etc, be without the rhythmic value of the grace notes? Go to Moeller or Stone if you doubt this. Grace notes also apply to all instruments.

You have taken part of the definition of a "standard" rudimental drumming flam, that applying to the grace note, and applied it to grace notes in general. I've seen it in more then one book so I understand where you are coming from.

For what it's worth, there is a wide ranging and ongoing debate among music scholars, which I am not, about the dumbing down of music notation in modern music composition.

[andSometimesY]

I see what you are saying, but a drag still just gets one beat. Grace notes do have rhythmic value, but it is hard to place a finger on or count properly sometimes. Also, if music scholars are still arguing about it (didn't know they were), then it probably isn't definitive.

[Pollyanna]

To those who use both trad and matched grip, do you find that the differentiation between right and left hand grips helps with independence?

[The popes love child]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned why most jazzers prefer trad grip? While playing ghost notes Trad grip allows you to elevate your arm up very high so only the very top of the stick makes contact with the head. The gives a much lighter sound that is desired for ghost notes. Trad grip allows you to play patterns in this manner where it is very awkward to try to do so with matched grip.

[Pollyanna]

Pope Progeny, I'm sure I've seen a top jazz drummer (not fusion) use matched grip but I can't remember when. I've often seen them use mostly trad but switch grips occasionally.

Only Billy Cobham comes to mind as a top jazz drummer who uses matched exclusively but he usually plays fusion. Others here might know of other top matched grip jazzers.

[willieboy_sf]

When Jack DeJohnette played the San Francisco Jazz Festival a couple of years ago he played matched grip for almost the whole show.

[anp27]

The great Bill Stewart always plays matched, he's a jazz drummer

[Ian Ballard]

Were you quoting my ghost/grace statement? If so, they are two different things. A grace note has no rhythmic value while a ghost note does. For example, a flam.

Oops, yeah... I mistakenly misquoted.

But whomever told you that, is misleading you. There is no inherent or implied difference between "ghost" and "grace" notes.

Please supply a university or scholarly source of evidence that the two statements have different meanings. I've studied at two universities and under Jim Riley (a graduate of North Texas and band leader/drummer for Rascal Flatts) and I've never heard that those terms mean something tangibly different, and in fact, my scholarly sources have all confirmed the terms are synonymous.

[Pollyanna]

Ok, it would then be fair to say that most jazzers play trad. A lot of this probably stems from more jazzers taking lessons from an early age than rock players. Not too many self taught drummers use trad grip. When I was young, pretty well all the teachers around used trad but most were tolerant of matched grip, at least for rock-playing students.

Re: graceful ghosts, I never heard people talk of or write about "ghost notes" until the Internet. In my rock days I thought of grace notes as light pattering strokes I'd play on the snare between the backbeat to try to make the beat flow or ... on my bad days my bandmates probably saw them as a perverse desire to infuse pointless clutter into the song :)

Just looking at the words, I could easily be convinced that a grace note was one that supported the following note - like a ruff. It's "gracefully" introducing the nest note. A ghost note would then be those "light pattering" strokes, like an echo - a ghostly echo :)

When I watch good jazzers comping, they don't seem to be playing with a ghost notes vs backbeat approach. They just seem to use an array of accents ranging from the barely audible to the Big Rimshot. Maybe that's easier to do with trad grip but if Billy D, Jack DJ & Bill S are using matched, the difference probably isn't all that great.

[georgeman]

Guys who don't play Trad knock it, and those that do play it, love it. I'd go with the guys that have tried it and love it. Practice it daily and you too will one day see the benefits of playing trad. Besides, it looks cool.
I'll start with this one. I play trad for everything from marching snare to jazz and even rock drumset. I can play matched but i ejoy playing trad.
my best comparison is driving cars. some People who have only driven automatic don't see standard as important while some people who drive standard don't see why people want to drive automatic. and other people think that its important to be able to apply both where and when its needed...i don't see people knocking french grip on here as much as people hate trad...

Ok, it would then be fair to say that most jazzers play trad. A lot of this probably stems from more jazzers taking lessons from an early age than rock players. Not too many self taught drummers use trad grip. When I was young, pretty well all the teachers around used trad but most were tolerant of matched grip, at least for rock-playing students.

(8< cut 8<)

When I watch good jazzers comping, they don't seem to be playing with a ghost notes vs backbeat approach. They just seem to use an array of accents ranging from the barely audible to the Big Rimshot. Maybe that's easier to do with trad grip but if Billy D, Jack DJ & Bill S are using matched, the difference probably isn't all that great.

I would agree that most jazzers use trad but i don't think this is necessarily from teaching at a young age. I'm a self taught (and lesson improved a year after i thought my self) trad grip. But when i went to my first lesson in 5th grade we were taught matched grip. and taught my self when i entered 7th grade.

Why hasn't anyone mentioned why most jazzers prefer trad grip? While playing ghost notes Trad grip allows you to elevate your arm up very high so only the very top of the stick makes contact with the head. The gives a much lighter sound that is desired for ghost notes. Trad grip allows you to play patterns in this manner where it is very awkward to try to do so with matched grip.

as true as this is cross stick can be aquard to switch fluently to and from from playing on the head. I've only seen one video where a matched grip player can acheave the patterns and sounds that is easier from trad grip. http://drummerworld.com/Videos/bernardpurdieshuffle.html

I'm also surprised that none has tried to say about how much more power that matched grip can acheave.
to shoot this down compare http://www.vicfirth.com/features/WGI2008/video/dartmouth1HQ.html a highschool drumline that plays matched to these guys that i'm sure alot of you have heard of http://www.vicfirth.com/features/DCI2008/video/08_cadetsSA1HQ.html
plus the stick tricks that you can do w/ trad in the terms of marching percussion is so cool

-george

ps if your having trouble keeping your thumb and index finger together pinch a penny while practicing and focus on keeping it there while flipping everyone off

[Ian Ballard]

The primary difference (at as far as fingers go) is the fact that matched grip pulls the stick into the hand behind the fulcrum, whereas traditional pushes the stick downward in front of the fulcrum.

I think the person that stated that traditional gives an angular advantage because you can tilt the stick more upward for lower dynamics hit on one legit thing that really can't be done with matched. However, one should not need to do things like that to control their dynamics. You should be able to play at "ppp" in your normal stick position.

It's a feel thing too me. Nothing more.

[georgeman]

The primary difference (at as far as fingers go) is the fact that matched grip pulls the stick into the hand behind the fulcrum, whereas traditional pushes the stick downward in front of the fulcrum.

I think the person that stated that traditional gives an angular advantage because you can tilt the stick more upward for lower dynamics hit on one legit thing that really can't be done with matched. However, one should not need to do things like that to control their dynamics. You should be able to play at "ppp" in your normal stick position.

It's a feel thing too me. Nothing more.

its less of a dynamic thing and more of a sound a feel like the difference between an up stroke (low to high) and a tap stroke (low to low)

-george

[Ian Ballard]

If you play "open-handed", where you are using mostly the crotch of the thumb to facilitate the movement(Jack DeJohnette style), rather than the fingers, you have an incredible range of motion not possible with matched, if you are using a strict French or German grip. But many innovations in both grips over the years, have made them so comparable, it's a wash to say, one is better than the other.

I think I prefer traditional, because I could never get my matched left hand to do what my right could do, but with traditional, my left hand seemed to respond better, to the extent that it can now do things my right cannot.

There are various leverage issues that makes traditional superior in certain circumstances, like holding the hi-hat when doing "Buddy Rich" style rolls on them, where the left-traditional hand is smacking the bottom cymbal. It's really not possible to do that with matched and it feels so much more comfortable to me, than playing on top of the hi-hat with both hands.

[georgeman]

If you play "open-handed", where you are using mostly the crotch of the thumb to facilitate the movement(Jack DeJohnette style), rather than the fingers, you have an incredible range of motion not possible with matched, if you are using a strict French or German grip. But many innovations in both grips over the years, have made them so comparable, it's a wash to say, one is better than the other.

I think I prefer traditional, because I could never get my matched left hand to do what my right could do, but with traditional, my left hand seemed to respond better, to the extent that it can now do things my right cannot.

There are various leverage issues that makes traditional superior in certain circumstances, like holding the hi-hat when doing "Buddy Rich" style rolls on them, where the left-traditional hand is smacking the bottom cymbal. It's really not possible to do that with matched and it feels so much more comfortable to me, than playing on top of the hi-hat with both hands.

Ian i just realized that we were both arguing w/ eachother and we are arguing for the same thing...haha
you have some great points there though

-george

[donv]

Oops, yeah... I mistakenly misquoted.

But whomever told you that, is misleading you. There is no inherent or implied difference between "ghost" and "grace" notes.

Please supply a university or scholarly source of evidence that the two statements have different meanings. I've studied at two universities and under Jim Riley (a graduate of North Texas and band leader/drummer for Rascal Flatts) and I've never heard that those terms mean something tangibly different, and in fact, my scholarly sources have all confirmed the terms are synonymous.

Ian,

The fiirst source would be "A Treatise on Orchestration." The first text on music theroy, oan from there you can go to any text on music theory. This problem stems from the fact that all instruments play grace and ghost notes and in some drumming situations the drums are written to follow other insturments. Flams alone can have 5 different accent marks, 5 different sustain marks and 5 different attact or dynamic marks. That's a lot of combinations as each flam with have 3 marks above it identifying how it's played. These are the standards which don't cover the non-typical.

I just read an articlle this weekend with Benny Grebb and he mentions his dynamics are nothing new, Bach did it. If you ever get a chance to read a Bach manuscript, do it. He wrote pages on how his music is to be played and you will find an in depth discussion from him also on grace and ghost notes. Most composers did this, but Bach was extra prolific.

When I mentioned music scholars debating the dumbing down of contempory music, this is what I was referring to. So much music notation is being lost as in not used and not taught.

Later I'll do some google searches for you to pull up what you ask for unless you want to do it yourself.

[Ian Ballard]

Ian,

The fiirst source would be "A Treatese on Compositon." The first text on music theroy, oan from there you can go to any text on music theory. This problem stems from the fact that all instruments play grace and ghost notes and in some drumming situations the drums are written to follow other insturments. Flams alone can have 5 different accent marks, 5 different sustain marks and 5 different attact or dynamic marks. That's a lot of combinations as each flam with have 3 marks above it identifying how it's played. These are the standards which don't cover the non-typical.

I just read an articlle this weekend with Benny Grebb and he mentions his dynamics are nothing new, Bach did it. If you ever get a chance to read a Bach manuscript, do it. He wrote pages on how his music is to be played and you will find an in depth discussion from him also on grace and ghost notes. Most composers did this, but Bach was extra prolific.

When I mentioned music scholars debating the dumbing down of contempory music, this is what I was referring to. So much music notation is being lost as in not used and not taught.

Later I'll do some google searches for you to pull up what you ask for unless you want to do it yourself.

I agree with all of that, but it still does not prove your semantic argument.

All "notes" have a rhythmic value of some kind, a dynamic value and there is no specified difference that makes one inherently distinct over the other.

Maybe we could start arguing the history and etymology of both words? Kinda boring eh?

Anyway, back to the TOPIC of the thread...

[donv]

I agree with all of that, but it still does not prove your semantic argument.

All "notes" have a rhythmic value of some kind, a dynamic value and there is no specified difference that makes one inherently distinct over the other.

Maybe we could start arguing the history and etymology of both words? Kinda boring eh?

Anyway, back to the TOPIC of the thread...

Ian,

Believe me, it doesn't matter to me what others think, but I don't think I ever implied one or the other had no ryhthmic value. Of course they do. In fact I'm sure I said they did.

A ghost note is often referred to as the "anti-accent." It's a note that also carries it's standard note time value. A grace note is very different in that its time value is determined by it's notation, and setting aside the other possible notations. Should a percussion instrument have to accompany the "trill", also grace notes, of another instrument, the perucssionist needs to understand the notes duration. Grace notes also do not need to be paired with a primary note. This is just standard stuff from a music glossary of terms and they both serve different purposes.

As for trad grip. I just find it easier to play for control. Matched grip for power. I don't know why just that it's the way it is for me.

[Cadet311]

Oops, yeah... I mistakenly misquoted.

But whomever told you that, is misleading you. There is no inherent or implied difference between "ghost" and "grace" notes.

Please supply a university or scholarly source of evidence that the two statements have different meanings. I've studied at two universities and under Jim Riley (a graduate of North Texas and band leader/drummer for Rascal Flatts) and I've never heard that those terms mean something tangibly different, and in fact, my scholarly sources have all confirmed the terms are synonymous.

I was actually quoting Tommy Igoe and that was the best way I've found to explain the difference to younger percussionists.

And if you think I'm trying to find something to back up my statement beyond Tommy's DVDs, I'm much too lazy. :)

[Deltadrummer]

I was actually quoting Tommy Igoe and that was the best way I've found to explain the difference to younger percussionists.

And if you think I'm trying to find something to back up my statement beyond Tommy's DVDs, I'm much too lazy. :)

The Tommy Igoe argument is a good one. Grace notes have no value and there historical usage was in passages that allowed for freer expression. It is the same with Flam, ruff and drag rudiments. The grage note has not value.

Ghost notes, an idea that became popular with David Garibaldi's books, are notated in time time. There usage is directly related to the time and development of the feel of the groove. With my students I teach them as similar and that seems to work. Technically the same thing is going on.

It is strange though that in the book, Tommy writes out the grace notes in time. I honestly am not sure of how much sense the concept makes in the way he introduces it.

[donv]

The Tommy Igoe argument is a good one. Grace notes have no value and there historical usage was in passages that allowed for freer expression. It is the same with Flam, ruff and drag rudiments. The grage note has not value.

Ghost notes, an idea that became popular with David Garibaldi's books, are notated in time time. There usage is directly related to the time and development of the feel of the groove. With my students I teach them as similar and that seems to work. Technically the same thing is going on.

It is strange though that in the book, Tommy writes out the grace notes in time. I honestly am not sure of how much sense the concept makes in the way he introduces it.

One last time.

"Standard Music Notation" as copyrighted by The Music Publishiers Association of America and Music Educatiors National Conference. current text 1966 and 1993

This particular text explains the "count" value given a grace note and this text is rather thin on the subject in limiting itself to 1/3 to 1/2 the principle note value, but it's easy to read.

Ghost notes became popular with Garibaldi and his books?

As a teacher Ken I can understand explaining notation to students in the context of what you emphasize and focus on in your teaching, but isn't if fair to add that caveat that there is more out there? This isn't about history. I'm not sure it's even about playing drums. This is standard music theory that has applications in drumming for sure.

Heck, I don't care who believes this or not. I didn't write any of the texts, dissertations or trestise's on music theory, but I also doubt anyone else here did either?

[Deltadrummer]

One last time.

"Standard Music Notation" as copyrighted by The Music Publishers Association of America and Music Educators National Conference. current text 1966 and 1993

This particular text explains the "count" value given a grace note and this text is rather thin on the subject in limiting itself to 1/3 to 1/2 the principle note value, but it's easy to read.

Ghost notes became popular with Garibaldi and his books?

As a teacher Ken I can understand explaining notation to students in the context of what you emphasize and focus on in your teaching, but isn't if fair to add that caveat that there is more out there? This isn't about history. I'm not sure it's even about playing drums. This is standard music theory that has applications in drumming for sure.

Heck, I don't care who believes this or not. I didn't write any of the texts, dissertations or trestise's on music theory, but I also doubt anyone else here did either?

I should have said that "ghost notes became popular in drumming." And a mean as a popular concept not that people had not been using them since the advent of drumming. But I have never heard the term used outside of the context of drumming.

I teach grace notes 'in value' to my students. How do you not? You have to conceive of them in some such value. You have to be able to count them or fit them in to the time. But, ultimately, music is not about notation (and I would have to read the music theory text.) You are always conceiving of notes played as in and out of 'time.' That's where you get ideas like rubato, metric modulation, diminuendo, a tempo and ritard. Grace notes are not part of the time and fit into that concept. A Coda can be "out of time" in that context. Perhaps this is what Tommy Igoe is getting at. He is writing them in the time; but ultimately they really do not have strict value in the time.

text:
http://mpa.org/music_notation/

[Cadet311]

This particular text explains the "count" value given a grace note and this text is rather thin on the subject in limiting itself to 1/3 to 1/2 the principle note value, but it's easy to read.




So if we're playing a quarter note flam, we should execute the grace note on the "and" of the beat before hand? Is that what you're saying based on the execution described in that book? I want to make sure I understand it clearly. If so, that's one really open flam.

[donv]

So if we're playing a quarter note flam, we should execute the grace note on the "and" of the beat before hand? Is that what you're saying based on the execution described in that book? I want to make sure I understand it clearly. If so, that's one really open flam.

OK, after this I'll be done.

Standing alone as drumming notation it would seem so. As an accompaniment instrument though, it would be used to embellish that "other" instrument or instruments and then it wouldn't seem so out of place or odd.

Beleve me, I understand the nuances to this but grace notes in drumming and percussion instruments "can" be more involved then what is found in rudimental drumming. Granted, most will never come across this, but if they ever should, with no experience playing this notation, they can at least acknowledge awareness. That has got to be better then admitting they don't have any idea of what it's about. Also, where most of these different notations are used, the drummer is not the timekeeper and these musical "events" usually come cued. Not always true, but usually.

Didn't mean to help rob the thread and tried to take it elsewhere, but....,

I won't facillitate hijacking again.

[cnw60]

text:
http://mpa.org/music_notation/

interesting - thanks for posting that link.

and am I missing something here, but that book says absolutely nothing about ghost notes. Nor does it say how to play grace notes or to assign rhythmic value to them, it merely describes how to graphically lay out the printed notes on a page of sheet music. So I'm not sure that offers much to the discussion.

FWIW - it does seem that there's a good bit of apples and oranges going on here as far as defining what it means to say 'rhythmic value'. As a drummer, my understanding of grace notes is based on the rudiments: i.e. flams and ruffs or whatever do not alter the underlying rhythm of the written expression. If there is a flam in the middle of a bunch of eighth notes - the continuity of the eighth notes is not affected by the grace note of the flam. Whereas a ghost note is simply a note - played softer dynamically than the rest of the notes. I think this is what Ken is talking about when he says that they are played in (or out) of rhythm. The ghost notes in the Purdie Shuffle (which somebody linked to earlier in this thread) are a perfect example. They occur on the offbeats of the triplets, and it is crucial that their timing within the overall groove is perfectly aligned with the triplet pulse. They are not grace notes leading into a primary note. They have their own rhythmic value and would be notated as such.

And I agree with Ian (as I should since it's what I said awhile ago) that IMO, there's no inherent advantage to trad or matched grip for playing any of these notes. Whatever FEELS best for you is probably a function of how you learned and how you practice - and whatever feels best for you is probably going to be the best way to achieve the desired result.

[Deltadrummer]

Yes, Ian's point is well noted. If it helps you with your feel to play trad or matched, there is no argument one way or the other that is really important.

As far as ghost notes v grace notes; it's all math. At the end of the measure, the ghost notes are part of the value of the measure, as in the Purdy shuffle.Those ghost notes are eighth note triplets rhythms and they make up the mathematics, the addition of the values of the measure. Grace notes don't do that. they exist outside of the notation of the measure. You cold have 75 grace notes and a whole note in a measure of 4/4.

In the early history of ornaments they were actually improvised. The distinction Don is making is a 19th century one where the ornaments are written out in time in the music. So if the ornaments are written out are they still grace note? Technically yes, but most drum music you come across is not going to have written out ornaments.