need help with press rolls

[CJM]

I'm new here and though I've been playing a lot of years, I am still struggling with doing press rolls and incorporating them into my playing. There was never much call for them in rock or country so I got away without them for a long time but always felt like sort of a fraud. Never did any marching band and I really missed that experience.

What I want to know is, do your press rolls always pulse with the music, in triplets or across the swing pattern in straight time, or do you sometimes play outside of the tempo? Like in a swing tempo of 250 bpm, what kind of pattern would you use? I was playing along with "Milestones" the other day, and even though Philly Joe doesn't use press rolls in that I was wondering how I would even attempt one at that tempo.

Right now I can only roll at about 115 bpm (in 8th notes) but I hear that speed of execution is not all that important. Maybe that was just a sop to noobs like me.

[Jeremy Bender]

Press roll as in orchestral roll or are you referring to a double stroke roll played in a "meter." My understanding is that a good press roll should sound like paper tearing slowly. A good double-stroke roll (military or marching style) is usually played in time (meter). This short video may help... http://www.vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html

[CJM]

Press roll as in orchestral roll or are you referring to a double stroke roll played in a "meter." My understanding is that a good press roll should sound like paper tearing slowly. A good double-stroke roll (military or marching style) is usually played in time (meter). This short video may help... http://www.vicfirth.com/education/percussion101/snare9.html

Thanks. I like that the site gives actual tempos. I've been checking out a lot of YouTube, ExpertVillage etc videos and whoa boy there's a lot of conflicting advice and different terminology out there and usually it's just about how to get started. I found only one video of a guy actually working a roll into the overall groove.

Also I ordered the Art of Bop Drumming and I hope there's some roll help in that.

[fugazirancid]

Press rolls shouldn't pulse. It's all about getting the most even sound possible, at least speaking from a concert band/orchestral standpoint. The speed you're playing shouldn't really matter when you're doing longer rolls

[wolfie]

Let it be known, how ever contriversal there are really only a hand full of rudiments. Left hand, Right hand. open stroke and buzzed stroke. all that changes is the space between them. There is an optimum speed to buzz your sticks at, so it is important to learn to play buzz rolls at different meters. This will give the fixiblity to make a smooth sounding roll at all tempos.
I have scanned in a sheet of diferent meter study. all hand to hand. the best way to practice this, is to play each exersize. and cycle thought buzzing one note then two notes, then three notes etc. that will also give you the flexibility to come in and out of buzz rolls with ease.
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=359&pictureid=2502

please let me know how you get on.

[CJM]

I have scanned in a sheet of diferent meter study. all hand to hand. the best way to practice this, is to play each exersize. and cycle thought buzzing one note then two notes, then three notes etc. that will also give you the flexibility to come in and out of buzz rolls with ease.


please let me know how you get on.

What range of tempos? Are you saying LRLRLRLR on these? If so I do something similar now. But yes going in and out of rolls has been the weakest part for me. My left hand seems to give out, and as I move toward the center of the head I lose the response and it sounds uneven.

I didn't know what word to use for playing a roll in meter, say triplets in a swing song, so I used the word "pulsation" but of course I want it to sound even. Even with the better drummers sometimes I can sense how they are phrasing it - straight across or triplet-based. Like Ben Riley does a little 4-count transition in Blue Monk that seems to be straight eighth notes across the swing because triplets would be too slow.

[Boomka]

I'm new here and though I've been playing a lot of years, I am still struggling with doing press rolls and incorporating them into my playing. There was never much call for them in rock or country so I got away without them for a long time but always felt like sort of a fraud. Never did any marching band and I really missed that experience.

What I want to know is, do your press rolls always pulse with the music, in triplets or across the swing pattern in straight time, or do you sometimes play outside of the tempo? Like in a swing tempo of 250 bpm, what kind of pattern would you use? I was playing along with "Milestones" the other day, and even though Philly Joe doesn't use press rolls in that I was wondering how I would even attempt one at that tempo.

Right now I can only roll at about 115 bpm (in 8th notes) but I hear that speed of execution is not all that important. Maybe that was just a sop to noobs like me.

First, drop the word "press" from your vocabulary. There should be little to no "pressing" when playing a buzz stroke. For starters, learn to drop the buzz from as low as possible and let the head do a lot of the work. The middle finger (matched grip) is key to controlling the length and character of the buzz, be it legato or more staccato. "Surrender the stick to the head" was the advice given to me by Jim Blackley, and it's a surefire way to get relaxed rolls happening.

At 250 playing eighth notes with buzzes would be akin to playing 16ths at 125 with buzzes. As Wolfie pointed out, it's necessary to be able to play buzzes in various subdivisions so that you can get in and out of your rolls at various tempos and have them sound smooth. But before all that, you simply need to get a good buzz happening. Start VERY slowly (40 - 60 BPM) playing 8th notes as buzzes and try to lengthen each buzz out as long as possible and equally with either hand. It's okay if they don't join up (they probably won't at that tempo) the idea is to develop the ability to play long, relaxed buzz strokes with either hand. The slow tempo and lack of connection will allow you to hear what each hand is doing and concentrate on getting a smooth relaxed action with your wrists and fingers.

[wolfie]

Practice these at any tempo. It's not the tempo that is important.
but saying that, a nice swing tempo playing a buzzed triplet meter might sound a bit rough, so at that point change the meter to 16th notes or quintuplets. or playing a fast straight rock groove might be hard to get the stroke in as 16th so again change the meter to triplets on so on. Its about making that roll sound good. and being comfitable with useing mixed meter's makes alot of diference. And thats another subject all together.

[con struct]

but saying that, a nice swing tempo playing a buzzed triplet meter might sound a bit rough, so at that point change the meter to 16th notes or quintuplets.

"Triplet meter?" What's that? What's a triplet meter? "Change the meter to 16th notes?" I always thought that meter refered to 4/4 and so on, the time signature, so I don't understand how meter can mean triplets or 16th notes.

[CJM]

"Triplet meter?" What's that? What's a triplet meter? "Change the meter to 16th notes?" I always thought that meter refered to 4/4 and so on, the time signature, so I don't understand how meter can mean triplets or 16th notes.

I apologize, sir, for my incorrect terminology. I was striving to put into words what I am trying to do, to describe playing in time using certain rhythmic figures rather than freeform outside of the tempo or irrespective of it.

Fortunately other posters seemed to understand.

[con struct]

I apologize, sir, for my incorrect terminology. I was striving to put into words what I am trying to do, to describe playing in time using certain rhythmic figures rather than freeform outside of the tempo or irrespective of it.

Fortunately other posters seemed to understand.

No apologies needed since I wasn't directing my questions to you. I was responding to Rich Ashmore's post. I just don't understand what "a nice swing tempo playing a buzzed triplet meter" is supposed to mean.

[wolfie]

I am not fully parsay with the modern American terms in music, As I am a classicly trained musician From England and still use Latin terms. If I use the term Quaver Triplet feel People will not Understand me. However Meter refers to the subdivision feel of the music. Pulse is the beat, as in what the time signiture may dictates. These exersizes are useing what are called artificial subdivisions. that mean, becourse they are not a subdivision of the main pulse they do not belong, hense artificial eg Quintuplets, triplets, Septuplets.
That American English is 3's 5's and 7's.

So I reiterate. A triplet Meter is useing a bass subdivision of Quaver triplets to the pulse.
That is 3 1/8 note in a tie of three to the 1/4 note. which is the bass meter for a swing feel.

123123123123,
1----2---3----4---

[Boomka]

Practice these at any tempo. It's not the tempo that is important.
but saying that, a nice swing tempo playing a buzzed triplet meter might sound a bit rough, so at that point change the meter to 16th notes or quintuplets. or playing a fast straight rock groove might be hard to get the stroke in as 16th so again change the meter to triplets on so on. Its about making that roll sound good. and being comfitable with useing mixed meter's makes alot of diference. And thats another subject all together.

I'm sorry, but this is confusing. You start by saying the tempo isn't important, and then describe exactly why the tempo is very important.

If you're saying that practicing these can be done at any tempo, I agree completely. That said, I think they need to be practiced slowly so that good command of the subdivisions is achieved along with learning to create a long, sustained buzz in the most relaxed way possible.

But, in the end, tempo is very important. Knowing - however roughly - the tempo ranges at which certain subdivisions will produce a nice roll is a key to being able to effectively use the subdivision method. As you say, if you're playing a buzz roll at 45 BPM, eighth notes are not going to join together and your roll will sound terrible. Similarily, trying to cram sextuplets in at MM=180 is going to result in buzzes that are short, choppy and pulsed rather than legato. The entire purpose of being able to play buzzes using any particular subdivision is so we can execute a smooth legato roll in a relaxed way at any tempo and know exactly which hand we are going to enter and exit the roll on.

[Boomka]

becourse they are not a subdivision of the main pulse they do not belong, hense artificial eg Quintuplets, triplets, Septuplets.
That American English is 3's 5's and 7's.

Sorry if I seem like I'm on your case, but this is also a little unclear. There is nothing uniquely English about using the Latin (i.e. septuplets, quintuplets, etc.) and it is quite common in North America as well. The use of "3's 5's and 7's" is short form lingo which was - in part - inspired by Gary Chaffee's presentation of these as "5 Note Rhythms", etc.

Secondly to my mind - and you may differ - quintuplets, septuplets and other odd-numbered subdivisions most certainly are subdivisions of the main pulse. There is nothing artificial about them, they just aren't "symmetrical" divisions. We're still taking the primary pulse (e.g. the quarter note) and subdividing it into smaller, equal units of time. That they are considered difficult and odd is a matter of them not being common in our music and due to psychological conditioning that they are difficult and strange. Take a beginner who has no idea about musical conventions and they will have absolutely no idea that 5s, 7s and 9s are strange subdivisions. It's very easy to get a beginner to play quintuplets, in fact. It's the rest of us who were told they were taboo that have a problem.

Now to go off-topic a little bit. Stop reading here if you are hear to read about buzz rolls...

The primary difference in musical terminology (and I'm a Canadian living in the UK) is in the use of idiomatic terms like "minim", "crochet" and "quaver" for note values. Those are virtually unknown outside of the UK and aren't even used by all British musicians any more. Without offending anyone's cultural sensibilities, I'm of the mind that it is an antiquated and arcane terminology which hinders more then helps new students. And lest you think this is cultural chauvinism, hear me out. Much of the rest of European world (outside of France, Spain, Italy and Portugual) uses mathematical divisions to describe note value - i.e. Germany, the Netherlands, Greece, Poland, etc. And those in countries which do not use mathematical divisions understand mathematical divisions for note values either by exposure to that system or simply because anyone with a modicum of mathematical skill can understand basic fractions. If they don't understand those, they can relate to taking a pie or a bar of chocolate and dividing it up amongst several people.

Each and every time I've explained both systems to my UK students (and I do out of respect for English tradition) they all say, "Mate, the fractions iz more simpler, innit?". :D Trying to remember words like "crochet" and "minim" and how they relate to musical note value is difficult because those words/concepts appear nowhere else in their daily experience. Furthermore, in the case of the word "crochet" it has several uses in English -- one of which ironically means something which is obsolete -- but none of them actually relate to music or mathematical value. In North America, to "crochet" is to do a kind of needle point knitting. "Quavers" are a brand of crisps (potato chips to you NA lurkers...) to most British kids.

Moreover, whether we like it or not, the music education industry in the English-speaking world (indeed the entire world) is dominated by so-called North American parlance. More drum books are published in North America than anywhere else and the vast majority of drum instructional DVDs are produced in English and using North American terminology. Even many British drum publications use the mathematical system, e.g. Rhythm Magazine, Drummer magazine, etc. British instructional books, including those developed by Dave Hassel, Colin Woolway (Drumsense), Pete Riley, Alex Duthart, etc. all use the mathematical system of counting notes. This means that your average kid exploring the world of drums via books, magazines, Youtube and forums like this one is going to come across 1/4s, 1/8ths and 1/16ths more often than they will encounter crochets and quavers. Again, like it or not, it makes a lot of sense to standardise our language into an international form which has a mathematical (i.e. non-idiomatic) basis which can be accessed and understood by anyone, regardless of their country of origin.

And don't worry if you feel the need to protest: I get flamed for this all the time by British traditionalists - traditionalism and conservatism being an enduring and endearing aspect of the English psyche, mind you. :)

Anyway, this is all off the topic of buzz rolls. Sorry for the thread drift. I'm on my hobby horse today.

[wolfie]

I am curtanly not being snobby, just highlighting my own failings. Yes I agree about Intiquated Term's and I try to teach the more fraction based method. it's easier to understand, however that is not the way I have learn't and I do find myself having to adjust. Its like talk a second laguage. "Bar" V's "Measure", Cut Common V's 2/2 time signiture etc

By saying tempo is not important. What I mean is Practice at what ever tempo you are comfy with and use a mix of tempo's, that is the point, To be proficent at playing buzz rolls at all tempo's you need to alter the subdivisions that are being played.

And Gary Chaffee calls them artificial subdivisions as well. Maybe we should call them asymmetrical subdivisions that seems more fitting. but I didn't make them up.

[Boomka]

I am curtanly not being snobby, just highlighting my own failings. Yes I agree about Intiquated Term's and I try to teach the more fraction based method. it's easier to understand, however that is not the way I have learn't and I do find myself having to adjust. Its like talk a second laguage. "Bar" V's "Measure", Cut Common V's 2/2 time signiture etc

No, I don't think you're being snobby, and I recognise the tradition that you've been taught in is valid. I just think that a standardised language would help all of us, don't you think? I go through the same thing as you the other way around. I have to self-edit myself around some students and make sure I'm using the right phrases. It seems like a conference should be called to sort this out!

By saying tempo is not important. What I mean is Practice at what ever tempo you are comfy with and use a mix of tempo's, that is the point, To be proficent at playing buzz rolls at all tempo's you need to alter the subdivisions that are being played.

Yeah, I figured that's what you meant, it was just a little unclear to me.

And Gary Chaffee calls them artificial subdivisions as well. Maybe we should call them asymmetrical subdivisions that seems more fitting. but I didn't make them up.

He and I disagree on that... ;) Though I've never asked him personally why he uses that particular word. Indian tabla players have no problem feeling them as "natural". I guess my concern is that we set up 5s, 7s, 11s etc. as "difficult" from the get-go, but they seem to only be difficult to those already immersed in musical concepts which say that they are "difficult". Tell a layman non-percussionist to count to 7 and call that 1 and then count to seven again and call that 2 and they'd probably do it right away. I think we set ourselves up with the wrong attitude from the get go. That's all.

I borrowed the term "asymmetrical" from David Stanoch. I'm not sure who he would credit with the word or if it's his own coinage.

[wolfie]

In 2000 I saw Gary Chaffee at a clinic in my home town. Allthough most of the audience were bored, I guess it went over there heads. I was amaised.
I had a good chat with him after, and he agreed to me having lessons with him. So every now and then, when he has been in the UK I have booked time in a practice studio and booked his time. where ever he has been. Lots of driving.
He is the most musical drummer I have ever incounted. he has a great insight into the machanics of musical rhythm and time. I value his expertise.
He does not set up UK lessons as such though maybe when he comes over next, we could all get a little slice of the pie.
He has a belief that there is no such think as talent. Its all hard work.

You are right in what you are saying about odd groupings. It is only the existing player who has difficulty. It took me years to really control them. But now it is natural. It is one of the major lessons in my teaching., And beginers do it without any problems at all.
once they are mastered the next step is to put embelishments and rests to make phazes.
You can even put linear and sticking patern phazes over then.
I have learnt though not to be to complex, it might entertain other drummer but it want get any gigs.

[larryace]

What I want to know is, do your press rolls always pulse with the music, in triplets or across the swing pattern in straight time, or do you sometimes play outside of the tempo?

Generally I play a press roll as I would a single stroke roll, except I get multiple bounces from the stick. I actually do press the stick into the head, but that's not the only way to accomplish it. Now in 4/4 time you could play a press roll with a 16th note pulse or an 8th or 16th note triplet pulse, depending on the tempo. (You could actually make it "pulse", or play it without a "pulse", both work depending on the sound you want for that particular roll) I definitely do keep it in meter so that when it's time to end the roll, you will be "in time".

[Boomka]

In 2000 I saw Gary Chaffee at a clinic in my home town. Allthough most of the audience were bored, I guess it went over there heads. I was amaised.
I had a good chat with him after, and he agreed to me having lessons with him. So every now and then, when he has been in the UK I have booked time in a practice studio and booked his time. where ever he has been. Lots of driving.
He is the most musical drummer I have ever incounted. he has a great insight into the machanics of musical rhythm and time. I value his expertise.
He does not set up UK lessons as such though maybe when he comes over next, we could all get a little slice of the pie.
He has a belief that there is no such think as talent. Its all hard work.

You are right in what you are saying about odd groupings. It is only the existing player who has difficulty. It took me years to really control them. But now it is natural. It is one of the major lessons in my teaching., And beginers do it without any problems at all.
once they are mastered the next step is to put embelishments and rests to make phazes.
You can even put linear and sticking patern phazes over then.
I have learnt though not to be to complex, it might entertain other drummer but it want get any gigs.

I would love a heads up on that. I've got quite a few questions for him regarding things in his Patterns books.

[CJM]

OK, it's just as I thought. They are played in time to the music for the most part.

There are definitely some tempo gray areas where I can't triplet or straight-time my fills to fit smoothly...either it's too slow or too fast for my skills right now.

[larryace]

Yes they are played in time, you're not going to stop the pulse in your head to play the roll, you're going to fit the roll around the pulse. They sound best that way generally speaking.

[fugazirancid]

true, when playing in a drumset context you probably want to have them pulse for the sake of keeping time and such. sorry, misinterpreted the question.

[chris4355]

practice your rolls and rudiments on a pillow or any "non-bouncing" surface for a couple of days then go back to the drums, youll notice a difference immediately in your playing

[Boomka]

practice your rolls and rudiments on a pillow or any "non-bouncing" surface for a couple of days then go back to the drums, youll notice a difference immediately in your playing

Buzz rolls on a pillow?

[oops]

I would say 100% work on them in time with the rest of what you're playing.

I spend a little time everyday with my metronome, just going through a buzz roll exercise. (pretty much the same as wolfie's)

Set your metronome for a medium tempo (60-80 is fine), then play the different subdivisons over it.

Start with quarter notes: focus on nailing the beat, and let the buzz last as long as possible. Do that for minute, then move up to 8ths, then 8th note triplets, 16ths, 16th triplets etc. (you can go through 5s and 7s if interested too, but i find it hard to keep time while buzzing in hand to hand divisions (obviously this is a weakness in my playing, and maybe something I should work on)).

Again, the goal is to let each stroke buzz until the next note hits. You'll find it's easiest to do at 16ths or 16th triplets, but if you can get a long steady stream going at 8th notes (or even quarters), you're doing great.

Also for the record: Australia uses both music systems: crotchets/minims AND quarters/half notes.

[chris4355]

Buzz rolls on a pillow?

i imitate the buzz by vibrating the stick as it hits the pillow, obviously on the set i dont do that i just let it bounce while applying a bit of pressure, but somehow practicing all those things on pillows has helped me.

i practice all rudiments, stick control patterns on soft surfaces, the transition to the drumset usually is easier.

[Boomka]

i imitate the buzz by vibrating the stick as it hits the pillow, obviously on the set i dont do that i just let it bounce while applying a bit of pressure, but somehow practicing all those things on pillows has helped me.

i practice all rudiments, stick control patterns on soft surfaces, the transition to the drumset usually is easier.

The key to good buzz rolls is the control of the pressure applied by the fingers to control the bouncing of the stick. I'm not sure how working on a pillow would help you gain such control. In short, you need to have rebound to learn to control it. Usually the suggestion of pillow work is to help with speed and strength because you have to do more work to get the stick out of the pillow. In the case of buzz rolls, the key isn't speed or strength, but fine motor control.

But, if you believe it helps, keep at it. Personally, I don't bother with much non-rebounding surface practice. I figure the best way to improve my touch on my instrument is to play on my instrument or on a pad that imitates the instrument to some degree. I find it interesting that drummers are the only breed of musician who treat the playing of their instrument more like sporting practice than musical practice. For example, violinists don't bow yarn with velcro bows to increase their speed and strength... :) That said, there seem to be some who claim the benefits of such practice, so if it works for you, stick to it.

[CJM]

practice your rolls and rudiments on a pillow or any "non-bouncing" surface for a couple of days then go back to the drums, youll notice a difference immediately in your playing

o-kay, I gotta ask, how in the world do you practice buzz rolls on a pillow?

I've read this advice in many places, and I've tried practicing double stroke rolls on a pillow, and even with that, past a certain point I don't know if I'm getting clean doubles or not, because I can neither hear nor feel them. I can't imagine doing buzz rolls that way, unless it were some hard vinyl stadium seat pillow or something.

[donv]

"For example, violinists don't bow yarn with velcro bows to increase their speed and strength... :) "

My sister is a violinist and she practices all the time without playing. While playing the violin, the left hand is not there to hold the violin up, so they spend a fair amount of time just holding the violin between their chin and shoulder. It's hilarious at times. Other then that, I agree with you.

[donv]

This is a pretty cool question and I've enjoyed reading the answers.

The only time I've ever used press rolls of any duration was while marching. Part of marching was everyone in the drum line looking the same. Everyone using the same motions and the press roll was difficult for everyone getting in step with the same motions. The way we worked on getting together was by practicing 11, 13, 15, etc. stroke rolls together and then transitioning into the press roll.

Also, a press roll sounds like crap on a poorly tuned snare. A lot of "rock" snare drum tunings just don't lend themselves to a good press roll.

[larryace]

I love press rolls. Out of all the rolls, I use them the most by far. Even though I can play a double stroke roll, I can't really remember the last time I used one playing out. But presses? Easier to play, fits almost anywhere, very musical sounding, easy to control the volume with, and smooth as silk. Like someone pouring sand on your snare.
Press rolls, the ahem...Rolls of rolls.

[CJM]

This is a pretty cool question and I've enjoyed reading the answers.

The only time I've ever used press rolls of any duration was while marching. Part of marching was everyone in the drum line looking the same. Everyone using the same motions and the press roll was difficult for everyone getting in step with the same motions. The way we worked on getting together was by practicing 11, 13, 15, etc. stroke rolls together and then transitioning into the press roll.

Also, a press roll sounds like crap on a poorly tuned snare. A lot of "rock" snare drum tunings just don't lend themselves to a good press roll.

Yup, and I'm having a helluva time tuning my extra snare for it. I've got both heads really tight, and 42-strand snares. Still not much rebound. When I start at the edge I'm fine but when I move to the center for volume, it falls apart. The head just seems so dead there and just bringing my hands closer to me seems to make my left wrist go limp. I started using more forearm for strength after seeing a vid where Buddy Rich was using his arms quite a bit, and it worked for a while. Now not so much. By the way I play trad grip and most vids now show matched so it's hard to relate.

I think your drumline practice is a good idea, I rarely practice beyond 9 stroke and maybe thinking in terms of longer set rolls would get me to the 1-bar transition type rolls I'm looking for.

I didn't "need" them either for rock or country, that was the problem. But they would have come in handy for western swing and slow blues when you want to build up to a sharp transition - loud to quiet, or from vocals to instrumental.. I used hihat crescendo instead on slow blues but a good roll would have lent some polish to my sound. Oh well.

It didn't help that I was originally taught that the way you get to the buzz/press roll sound was through the double stroke roll. I used the old Gene Krupa book when I started and I don't think it even had the buzz roll in it. The whole thing has been really confusing.

[Loui]

I play the press rolls by holding the sticks with my thumb, index and middle finger only, its like a natural rebound

[CJM]

I play the press rolls by holding the sticks with my thumb, index and middle finger only, its like a natural rebound

Thanks but I use trad grip. I practice matched but don't feel like I can control it enough for rolls.

[JENGLISH817]

Thanks but I use trad grip. I practice matched but don't feel like I can control it enough for rolls.

I hear ya. Even though I started playin matched grip several years before traditional (we got a new drumline instructor and the first thing she said was 'Traditional...do it now') but my rolls and doubles are much more controlled and cleaner sounding with my traditional grip. I feel odd doing double bass patterns while doing trad grip, but its whatever works right? I can't figure out which grip I'm going to stick with though, because I move around the set easier with matched.

Sorry to go off on my grips on a thread about buzz rolls...

[chris4355]

The key to good buzz rolls is the control of the pressure applied by the fingers to control the bouncing of the stick. I'm not sure how working on a pillow would help you gain such control. In short, you need to have rebound to learn to control it. Usually the suggestion of pillow work is to help with speed and strength because you have to do more work to get the stick out of the pillow. In the case of buzz rolls, the key isn't speed or strength, but fine motor control.

But, if you believe it helps, keep at it. Personally, I don't bother with much non-rebounding surface practice. I figure the best way to improve my touch on my instrument is to play on my instrument or on a pad that imitates the instrument to some degree. I find it interesting that drummers are the only breed of musician who treat the playing of their instrument more like sporting practice than musical practice. For example, violinists don't bow yarn with velcro bows to increase their speed and strength... :) That said, there seem to be some who claim the benefits of such practice, so if it works for you, stick to it.

I have always found it harder to play drums on a non rebounding surface. Kinda like practicing running a mile by running 3, if you can do 3 miles, you then definitely can do one.

Bad analogy, but I am sure you get what I mean. =)

Ultimately, its really about time and dedication. I play on a pillow or mattress every day, for all I know I would be just the same if I just practiced on drums 100%

[chris4355]

o-kay, I gotta ask, how in the world do you practice buzz rolls on a pillow?

I've read this advice in many places, and I've tried practicing double stroke rolls on a pillow, and even with that, past a certain point I don't know if I'm getting clean doubles or not, because I can neither hear nor feel them. I can't imagine doing buzz rolls that way, unless it were some hard vinyl stadium seat pillow or something.

I imitate the buzz with my fingers by giving it more rebound, its kinda hard to explain, I sort of make the buzz happen. On the set I still use my fingers but rarely, just to keep the buzz rolling longer here and there. Keep in mind, I am not a drum teacher, drum major etc... This is just coming from me and at home practice, take it as you want it.

I personally find it helpful.

[donv]

A 42 strand snare is probably not a good idea for press rolls. It's too chunky. Try something way smaller that is quck and snappy. About your snare tuning, it almost sounds as though your rim or lugs are shot. Look around your snare and do a visual inspection of the distance between the lugs and the rims. If the same tuning comes at one point with 3/4's of an inch and 1/2 somewhere else and again 3/8 somewhere else, there's good chance the rim isn't any good. Also check the springs in the lugs. Also there are some "quality" drums out there that imo no matter what you do with them, they suck.

I really understand what you're getting at with happens when you move your wrists and how that changes your playing. My problem is a bit different, but when playing jazz I need my snare about 3 inches lower then when playing rock. My wrists work diffenetly at the different snare heights. I've concluded it's a by-product of marching.

When looking at buddy play, look at his body position compared to the drums and cymbals. Pay close attention to where his hi-hat is at--in relation to the snare--and it's height and then at how he holds his sticks including hand and arm position.

[CJM]

A 42 strand snare is probably not a good idea for press rolls. It's too chunky. Try something way smaller that is quck and snappy. About your snare tuning, it almost sounds as though your rim or lugs are shot. Look around your snare and do a visual inspection of the distance between the lugs and the rims. If the same tuning comes at one point with 3/4's of an inch and 1/2 somewhere else and again 3/8 somewhere else, there's good chance the rim isn't any good. Also check the springs in the lugs. Also there are some "quality" drums out there that imo no matter what you do with them, they suck.

I really understand what you're getting at with happens when you move your wrists and how that changes your playing. My problem is a bit different, but when playing jazz I need my snare about 3 inches lower then when playing rock. My wrists work diffenetly at the different snare heights. I've concluded it's a by-product of marching.

When looking at buddy play, look at his body position compared to the drums and cymbals. Pay close attention to where his hi-hat is at--in relation to the snare--and it's height and then at how he holds his sticks including hand and arm position.

Heh, yeah I hope it's my snare and not me. It's a Pulse I got for $30 at MF ten years ago. And the lugs and rims are probably horrible. I just didn't want to mess with the Dynasonic I use on gigs, but it needs work so maybe I'll swap out.

I'll check out Buddy again and keep hacking at it. There was a teacher advertising on CL who manages a drum corps here and I've been meaning to call, but worry that I won't be able to fit regular classes in my schedule and don't want to be a flake about it.

I've been practicing a lot and I think I'm just going through learning pains..thanks all.

[CJM]

Well, almost a year later and I think I've made progress.Thanks to everyone for your help. I actually printed out some of the advice and read them off the floor tom during practice.
I even have the guts now to use them on the job, for endings and one-bar transitions.

They're not terribly even yet, and volume just isn't there...is it arms, height, or just strength in the wrists that give you volume? Thinking Art Blakey type volume here.

[Boomka]

Well, almost a year later and I think I've made progress.Thanks to everyone for your help. I actually printed out some of the advice and read them off the floor tom during practice.
I even have the guts now to use them on the job, for endings and one-bar transitions.

They're not terribly even yet, and volume just isn't there...is it arms, height, or just strength in the wrists that give you volume? Thinking Art Blakey type volume here.

Volume is dictated by stick height, but a few things have to change to get a nice roll at higher volumes. At low volumes, we can maintain a very loose fulcrum and still get buzzes, but once you're striking the head from a higher height, there needs to be more fulcrum pressure applied to insure that the first bounce is controlled and goes straight into a buzz. In fact, I'm not always using a tonne of wrist motion to get high volume buzz strokes, but actually moving the forearm.

I also tend to use a slightly angular motion toward the center of the drum. This helps with controlling that first bounce somewhat. If you check out Vic Firth's Education pages (EDIT: here it is -- http://vicfirth.com/education/atkatz_pasic08.php) you'll find some videos with Ted Atkatz in them (a symphonic percussionist). He calls this technique the "Chicken Wing", I was taught it as "The Whip Cream Roll". Anyway, check out the video, because he does a nice job of explaining this technique.

[larryace]

...is it arms, height, or just strength in the wrists that give you volume?

Well there will be many answers to that question, depending on the technique being used. Myself, I believe down to my soul that the fingers, hand, and wrist are all the tools (besides the stick) that you need to play a drum. The arms get you around to the other pieces for sure, but the wrists hands and fingers is where the technique lies. (Just my opinion, there's more than one way to play good drums) So my answer would be the fingers, aided by the wrist, no deliberate elbow movement at all, which counters Boomkas approach, so at the end of the day, you have to find a technique that allows you to do them easily. Stick height is a definite factor in volume too.

[sciomako]

Can buzz rolls be practiced on a rubber practice pad?
Or must I practice on a real snare?

I'm asking because a practice pad gives different rebound.

[Boomka]

Buzzes are no different than any other stroke. You can get a "reasonable facsmile" going on a pad, but the more time you spend working on an actual drumhead, the better.

[zlumpy]

Can buzz rolls be practiced on a rubber practice pad?
Or must I practice on a real snare?

I'm asking because a practice pad gives different rebound.

I suggest you buy a better practice pad. The more expensive ones imitate the stick rebound of a real drumhead very well. Cheaper pads tend to rebound way too much, which can greatly hinder your playing on the kit if you become used to that rebound.