Moeller dilemma

[T-1000]

When doing the moeller triplets, can you think of the big whip as the accent, and then two upstrokes as the non-accents, or does it have to be formally the whip, the TAP (which is sort of a whole other stroke - which I never understood the point of as it seems to interupt the flow of the whip) and then the upstroke?

I'm quite comfortable with my technique at the moment as I've been thinking of both the non-accented strokes as upstrokes, but is the moeller one of those techniques where you can do your own interpretation of it, or do you have to utterly follow Jim Chapin?

I've also heard that some people like Dave Weckl assert that the moeller IS dependent on rebound whereas Jim Chapin claims it isn't.

Pretty confused...

[Xalky]

Yes Moeller, as I see it, is absolutely dependent on rebound to bring the stick back to the top position.

You can use your own interpretation of moeller but if you aint lettin the stick do most of the work then it aint Moeller.

Moeller is just a technique to get more hits for the price of one...essentially.

[jonescrusher]

If you learn and apply Moeller correctly it'll stop you getting in a tangle and ensure that your movements are as fluid as possible.
Remember that the stroke preceding an accented stroke should never be a tap stroke or down stroke; to get the stick up in readiness for the accent you'll have to play an up stroke or full stroke.

[T-1000]

yeah, I think i have the upstroke idea down, but it's the 'tap' (the middle stroke) that I don't get.

If I'm playing a 2 note cycle with the moeller ie. accent, non-accent, accent, non accent...etc... I'll just use the downstoke and the upstroke in a whipping motion, but if I'm doing a 3 note cycle ie. accent, non accent, non accent, accent, non accent, non accent...etc... I'll use the down stroke, and then when I'm coming up for the next downstroke I'll play two strokes as I'm coming up (so two 'upstrokes').

Is this wrong, and causing me to be not doing the moeller?

[Xalky]

I have the Chapin video. When I started watching it, I had a hell of a time trying to get it to happen then all of a sudden it just happened. All this talk about upstroke/downstroke just confuses the issue.

My advice is to watch it and practice it. The triplets that Chapin does are where I started.

The easiest way to explain it for me is to try a single stroke role and place the accents where he places them. The accents are that whipping motion. The other two strokes kinda of happen as a result of that accent stroke and redirecting the sticks energy back down to the drum head with your fingers as a result of the rebound.

Just keep trying it. Your fulcrum is in front, the small fingers should be relaxed, and act as a spring to send the stick back down.

I don't know if that helped you at all. Watch the triplet and try to emulate that. It'll all of a sudden start to happen.

[Deltadrummer]

yeah, I think i have the upstroke idea down, but it's the 'tap' (the middle stroke) that I don't get.

If I'm playing a 2 note cycle with the moeller ie. accent, non-accent, accent, non accent...etc... I'll just use the downstoke and the upstroke in a whipping motion, but if I'm doing a 3 note cycle ie. accent, non accent, non accent, accent, non accent, non accent...etc... I'll use the down stroke, and then when I'm coming up for the next downstroke I'll play two strokes as I'm coming up (so two 'upstrokes').

Is this wrong, and causing me to be not doing the moeller?

When thinking of technique, it is necessary to understand what exactly the technique is trying to achieve. Many hand techniques were used by their creators to generate sound. The Moeller technique is used to generate an accent. The accent is the down stroke or whip. The tap is the rebound, and the upstroke is a pull out, or stolen note. The fundamental movement is whip, tap, pull out: the pumping motion. it resembles pumping a jack for example. Moeller does not rely on the rebound. Weckle is wrong, plain and simple. If you are doing two notes, it is pull out - whip, no tap, no rebound. See what I mean. The Moeller uses the rebound as a way to generate more that two notes but is not dependent on it.

[Toza]

I've also heard that some people like Dave Weckl assert that the moeller IS dependent on rebound whereas Jim Chapin claims it isn't.

Pretty confused...

i think it doesn't depend on rebound, its a motion, and one's you master it it will be powerfull on any surface. with rebound or not, but you need to understand how it works when you have rebound :)

[bjparadiddle]

There are no strict orthodoxies, despite what some drummers here insist. The Moeller technique is a method for accenting that allows the player to "wind up" by playing an upstroke before slamming down the accent. There is a lot of hocus-pocus surrounding the technique. If something in your playing is really hanging you up, then go after the problem. Perhaps Moeller CAN help some. But remember, we're playing music. The great musicians broke the rules. Besides, if there's one thing that can make you a better drummer, it lies in knowing the music and being able to GROOVE.

[FunkyJazzer]

The Moeller technique is used to generate an accent.


I thought this. I think I still do, BUT:

I've read somewhere that you shouldn't be able to tell if it's Moeller by listening to it, implying that you can "take the accent out" once you've got the basic motion down. Dave Weckl uses Moeller (albeit with wrist strokes instead of arm movement) to generate multiple strokes without the accent.

There's a lot of opinions about this. Out of all the preachers of the Moeller technique, if I were believing anyone, it would have to be Jim Chapin. He learned it in it's purest, unbastardised form from the man himself, after all.

[Deltadrummer]

I thought this. I think I still do, BUT:

I've read somewhere that you shouldn't be able to tell if it's Moeller by listening to it, implying that you can "take the accent out" once you've got the basic motion down. Dave Weckl uses Moeller (albeit with wrist strokes instead of arm movement) to generate multiple strokes without the accent.

There's a lot of opinions about this. Out of all the preachers of the Moeller technique, if I were believing anyone, it would have to be Jim Chapin. He learned it in it's purest, unbastardised form from the man himself, after all.


I have used the pumping motion without the accent. But to say the the Moeller relies on the rebound is just wrong. And you can see the confusion it leads to. This comes up all the time.

The rebound is just one aspect of the three strokes associated with the Moeller: whip, tap and pull out. The crux of the Moeller technique is the whip, the down stroke. Here are four uses of the Moeller without a rebound. The whip can generate a heavy back beat without the pumping motion or rebound. The pull out can generate multiple ghost notes, which would kind of seem like a faux pas; but traditionally jazz guys used this all the time. Another example of Moeller without rebound is when you are accenting the downbeat in an eighth note high hat pattern. You are simply using a whip and pull out. No rebound needed. A nice way to see the Moeller in full bloom is in a Purdie shuffle where you have three ghost notes: two taps, pull out, and a whip of down stroke on beat three in the left hand. But even in this usage, the tap is not generated by the rebound of the whip at a slow tempo.

The uses of the technique are many and ultimately left up to the imagination and needs of the drummer. A lot of drummers use these techniques and don't call it 'Moeller.'

[Boomka]

Deltadrummer: your last point is an important one. Even Moeller himself never claimed to have invented anything. He codified and systematised something he had witnessed drummers doing in their natural habitat, so to speak. The technique developed by necessity and by application of physical and physiological principles to the real problems faced by drummers. Moeller was quick to point out that he figured any drummer worth their salt and who really examined their technique would eventually use the same kind of motions, at least in principle.

[Jeff Almeyda]

I thought this. I think I still do, BUT:

I've read somewhere that you shouldn't be able to tell if it's Moeller by listening to it, implying that you can "take the accent out" once you've got the basic motion down. Dave Weckl uses Moeller (albeit with wrist strokes instead of arm movement) to generate multiple strokes without the accent.



I can hear a pulse in a Moeller triplet even without accents. The whipping motion causes different parts of the stick tip to hit at different angles.

Compare this to Gladstone technique in which every note is generated in exactly the same way. Notes played in this manner sound much more consistent than those played with a whipping motion.

[Boomka]

Compare this to Gladstone technique in which every note is generated in exactly the same way.

Can you elaborate? I ask because my understanding of Gladstone's technique(s) - gleaned from a student of his - is that he applied wrist-strokes, finger-strokes, etc. Each type of stroke is going to create a slightly different sound because of the amount of leverage and weight behind the stroke. A wrist stroke has a different character than a finger stroke in part due to the weight of the wrist/hand, and the time it takes that weight to move back in the opposite direction after impact. We're talking milliseconds, but it changes the sound significantly to my ears. A finger can be pushed back by the momentum of the stick bouncing off the head much more quickly than a hand or forearm, even with muscular assistance applied to the latter.

I'm not flaming, I'm genuinely curious what technique you're speaking of.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Can you elaborate? I ask because my understanding of Gladstone's technique(s) - gleaned from a student of his - is that he applied wrist-strokes, finger-strokes, etc. Each type of stroke is going to create a slightly different sound because of the amount of leverage and weight behind the stroke. A wrist stroke has a different character than a finger stroke in part due to the weight of the wrist/hand, and the time it takes that weight to move back in the opposite direction after impact. We're talking milliseconds, but it changes the sound significantly to my ears. A finger can be pushed back by the momentum of the stick bouncing off the head much more quickly than a hand or forearm, even with muscular assistance applied to the latter.

I'm not flaming, I'm genuinely curious what technique you're speaking of.

If I am playing 8 consecutive notes and I wish them to sound as identically as possible, I would employ a formal technique in which every motion is identical to the one preceding it. This could be done with either a series of wrist strokes or finger strokes.not through a combination of the two.

This "bouncing of the ball" technique has been called a formal stroke, a velocity stroke, a Gladstone stroke etc. What it is called is irrelevant, what it important is that the same motion is repeated as opposed to an informal, whipping technique which uses different moves for each note.

That is all I mean. Identical motions produce identical sounds and different motions produce different sounds. Not exactly rocket science but helpful.

[Deltadrummer]

Gladstone, like Stone, was fundamentally interested in sound. He came from a classical background after all. What sound are you getting out of the drum? This is what these guys talked about with their students in the lesson. From my understanding of Gladstone use and development of technique, you are absolutely correct. Joe Morello says that he had the best technique he ever heard, and the best compliment he ever gives to anybody is that his technique is almost as good as Gladstone. I would also recommend Joe Morello's the Natural approach to Technique Vol 1 for a great approach to Moeller. Weckl's videos did not seem to add anything new and just cause confusion.


What do you guys think of Lloyd's question about technique. Should you know a technique by hearing it? I would say yes, because the fundamental use of technique is to produce a desired sound effect. I can always tell when someone is using Moeller.

[DrummerForJah]

Wow you guys are amazing. How do you pay so much attention to detail? You must all have been playing for a while.. I am inspired! I hereby make it my plight to gain better technique!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

I thought this. I think I still do, BUT:

I've read somewhere that you shouldn't be able to tell if it's Moeller by listening to it, implying that you can "take the accent out" once you've got the basic motion down. Dave Weckl uses Moeller (albeit with wrist strokes instead of arm movement) to generate multiple strokes without the accent.

There's a lot of opinions about this. Out of all the preachers of the Moeller technique, if I were believing anyone, it would have to be Jim Chapin. He learned it in it's purest, unbastardised form from the man himself, after all.

I think it's important to clear this up: if you "take the accent out", you may be using motions similar to the Moeller, but the whole idea of the Moeller pumping motion is to hit once and get 2 or 3 strokes for free. If there is no accent, you are just playing unaccented strokes with your wrist or fingers.

Either that, or you have discovered perpetual motion......maybe there is more about that in the next Weckl video :-)

Casper

[Abhishek]

Have a bit of dilemma myself. I know about the Moeller stroke, which is the whipping motion (like in Jojo's video). But where do the 4 types of stroke come into play - upstroke, downstroke, tap, fullstroke. Are they part of the Moeller system? If not, what are their applications? Is it that Moeller is for accents, while the 4 strokes are for single strokes?

I am a bit confused with so many techniques being talk about.Can anyone help?

[Avendesoran]

When doing the moeller triplets, can you think of the big whip as the accent, and then two upstrokes as the non-accents, or does it have to be formally the whip, the TAP (which is sort of a whole other stroke - which I never understood the point of as it seems to interupt the flow of the whip) and then the upstroke?

I'm quite comfortable with my technique at the moment as I've been thinking of both the non-accented strokes as upstrokes, but is the moeller one of those techniques where you can do your own interpretation of it, or do you have to utterly follow Jim Chapin?

I've also heard that some people like Dave Weckl assert that the moeller IS dependent on rebound whereas Jim Chapin claims it isn't.

Pretty confused...

Jojo Mayer disagrees with Weckl. In Mayer's dvd Secret Weapons, he demonstrates how after mastering the fluid motion of the moeller pumping action, if you just let your hands flow with the sticks, you can perform the moeller on any surface without rebound. He shows amazing moeller on his leg, a piece of floating news paper and even a pizza.

The up stroke that leads into the accent is FOR SURE not dependent on rebound because the pumping motion brings the stick back. Now I find that if i treat the tap between the accent and the upstroke as just a "pre" up stroke so that both notes after the accent are part of the motion to bring it back to the accent.

I start with the first accent. The big whip arm comes up elbow comes out a bit and whip down. hand follows the stick to allow rebound and pull down with the tap as the hand is already moving back for the up stroke and accent. For the last note, the upstroke in the triplet, because my hand is already moving back I find that my hand moves out and the last stroke actually almost becomes a wrist turn not a bend - like a radius-ulna turn of a trad grip but while holding in match. The stick is almost sideways before I whip it back into position

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Have a bit of dilemma myself. I know about the Moeller stroke, which is the whipping motion (like in Jojo's video). But where do the 4 types of stroke come into play - upstroke, downstroke, tap, fullstroke. Are they part of the Moeller system? If not, what are their applications? Is it that Moeller is for accents, while the 4 strokes are for single strokes?

I am a bit confused with so many techniques being talk about.Can anyone help?

All you need to think about is this: you hit once, and the stick bounces several times. That's the whole idea, and that's why the Moeller is enshrouded in such mystery. But it's not mysterious at all.

If performed on a rebounding surface, it's very easy to get the hang of. I think people are too fascinated with the pizza demonstration. It's absolutely beilliant, to be sure, but doesn't have all that much practical application. The point, really, is that thew stick is playing while you are relaxed. That's what there is to learn from the Moeller pumping motion. Dom teaches it on a pad, Chapin too, so you don't need to ruin your pants, or any pizzas, to get it. But a teacher helps!

Casper

[druid]

If performed on a rebounding surface, it's very easy to get the hang of. I think people are too fascinated with the pizza demonstration.

Casper

Dudes...I just got a call last week.....some new band wants me to bring a 5 piece Sicilain Pie for "recording"...I think maybe they have the wrong idea from JoJo's DVD?

[BillBachman]

This discussion is bouncing around quiet a bit mainly due to nomenclature. Some seem to think that Moeller means three strokes in a system, but a Moeller stroke is simply a single isolated stroke. There do not have to be notes that follow or precede a stroke for it to be a Moeller stroke. It is commonly demonstrated in a context of three consecutive strokes looped with an accent on the first, but at that point it's a Moeller accent used within a pattern (that uses a common sense system taught by Moeller). It's funny though, if you watch a drummer with great technique play a tune, the Moeller stroke will be used a lot, but the stock three note cycle will probably not be one of them.

A Moeller stroke is simply a whip stroke played from the forearm so that the wrist can stay relaxed and do nothing. It's commonly used for accents when there isn't much time available for the wrist to perform an upstroke preceding the accent, this lets the wrist stay relaxed instead of stressing it out when the demand or speed for accent/tap control increases.

Try playing Toto's Rosanna shuffle groove with your wrist lifting the stick for each accent, you'll get tight, stiff, drag tempo, and will be disrupted by the sound of tendonitis knocking on your door. That's where the Moeller technique will come in to save you by letting the forearm and physics do the job that your wrist can't handle. In this shuffle context, the Moeller stroke's application has nothing to do with maintaining rebound because the stick stops after the accent as it dies against the edge of the hats where there's no rebound. After that accent, you pick up the forearm while the wrist is limp such that the stick drops and happens to tap the top cymbal (I call this droopy drop tap the "Moeller upstroke"). At this point your forearm is up and the hand is hanging and ready for the next Moeller accent whip stroke (played from the forearm such that the loose hand & stick get whipped back to the hats for the next accent). The inverted flam tap is the perfect rudiment to develop this motion, and it becomes even more obvious that in this context there's no rebounding after the Moeller accent.

In the context of the typical three stroke cycle demonstration, you do want the energy from the accent to carry on into the next two rebound strokes. There's the Moeller whip stroke, a lazy bounced tap in the middle, and the third is another lazy bounced tap (the Moeller upstroke) that drops in as the forearm is lifted up prepping for the next Moeller accent. On a detailed note, I don't recommend starting the Moeller upstroke any sooner than the last tap preceding the accent, otherwise the angle the taps are played at changes, this changes the stroke's sound as well as a decrease in natural rebound. So yes, in this context it's a "3 strokes for the effort of one" concept.

Equally important, or more important actually, is the ability to do the sets of two strokes in this same fashion. This is your standard rock groove hi hat pattern like the shuffle above but with a straight 8th note, or ride cymbal pattern with accents on the bell and 8th note taps on the shoulder of the cymbal. (Incidentally, fast hand to hand flams will work this motion in both hands.) In addition to sets of 2 & 3, sets of 4 & 5 notes with accents on the initial stroke should be done in this same way. Keep in mind though that the more strokes you add between Moeller accents the more finger control will be needed to keep dribbling the sticks since the accent's energy can only be maintained for so long.

To see my video lesson on Moeller, click here: http://www.vicfirth.com/artists/bachman.html

Scroll down to excerpt #2 from my Rudimental Beats DVD on the Moeller Stroke.

[Alex Luce]

Have a bit of dilemma myself. I know about the Moeller stroke, which is the whipping motion (like in Jojo's video). But where do the 4 types of stroke come into play - upstroke, downstroke, tap, fullstroke. Are they part of the Moeller system? If not, what are their applications? Is it that Moeller is for accents, while the 4 strokes are for single strokes?

I am a bit confused with so many techniques being talk about.Can anyone help?

Let me take a stab at this:

Full stroke: Using the full range of motion of the wrist to play a drumming stroke

Down stroke: The hand moves down when striking the drum

Up stroke: An upstroke is defined in The Moeller Book as "tapping the drum while the hand is rising."

Tap: This is a little harder to define. In The Moeller Book it seems that a "tap" is described as the sound that is produced when hitting a drum, rather than an actual physical movement. However, I think it has come to mean a stroke or bounce that starts from a medium or lower stick height.

The Moeller triplet uses all four of these designations. When played loud, it is a full stroke that uses a Down, Tap, Up movement.

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Dudes...I just got a call last week.....some new band wants me to bring a 5 piece Sicilain Pie for "recording"...I think maybe they have the wrong idea from JoJo's DVD?

A Five Slice Tomato Kit? Just proves they don't know anything about drumming! Everybody knows the rebound is in the pepperoni. What are they, trying to kill you??

Casper

[Loui]

You need to do what is more comfortable for your playing. Along with the practice, you will find that you are creating your own motions, combining different techniques. That's kinda a Jojo concept, but I think that is the right path.

[thomas77]

I agree, we seem so hung up on doing things "right" but if something works for you keep it, then you may become the innovator of tomorrow! We will all be copying you!

[Alex Luce]

I am not sure how helpful these kinds of advice are, especially on a thread where so much excellent input has already been given. (Except the pepperoni pizza comments, of course!) Most of us weren't lucky enough to start playing the drums at the age of two and develop a beautiful, natural stroke like Jojo.

If you look at great NBA players (Kobe and LeBron for example), they all shoot the ball EXACTLY the same way. There is a reason for this. Given the design of the human body, it is the most natural, efficient and powerful way to do it. Drumming isn't much different. Since we are all anatomically alike, what works for me will also work for you. There will always be certain exceptions, but those are a rarity.

Unless you happen to be a natural drumming genius, it is best to learn the rules before you try to break them.

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

Let me take a stab at this:

Full stroke: Using the full range of motion of the wrist to play a drumming stroke

Down stroke: The hand moves down when striking the drum

Up stroke: An upstroke is defined in The Moeller Book as "tapping the drum while the hand is rising."

Tap: This is a little harder to define. In The Moeller Book it seems that a "tap" is described as the sound that is produced when hitting a drum, rather than an actual physical movement. However, I think it has come to mean a stroke or bounce that starts from a medium or lower stick height.

The Moeller triplet uses all four of these designations. When played loud, it is a full stroke that uses a Down, Tap, Up movement.

Regards,

Alex

Yes. The confusion seems to lie in the conception of the rebound.

This is Dom Famularo's interpretation, and it's closer to Jim Chapin's. You can find this in "It's Your Move."

The fundamental Moeller stroke is the whip. The whip is can be described as a "paint the fence" type of Karate motion. You should be able to hear the whip sound, swoosh.

There are two ways to execute the whip, either

A) as a down stroke as a "control stroke" where the whip creates a note but the rebound is "controlled, " i.e there is no rebound.
B) as a down stroke with a rebound. as in Rosanna, like Bill said, on the third beat you have an accent/whip with a rebound on the 'trip' part of the beat. The rebound is the tap; you let the stick come down and bounce.

You can get more that one bounce out of the stick, so the Moeller is a way to create multiple strokes with just one motion. More bang for the buck. In other words, the whip can create 5-8 strokes. That is part of the beauty and allure of the stroke.

The upstroke or "pull out" is another part of the whip. It happens without any effort because as you raise the stick up, you can let it relax and it will hit the drum. This is an important part of the whip because the tip of the stick in the whip is down, "paint the fence," as the stick is lifted for the upstroke. So you get a "free' note, another note without any effort. If you're getting five rebounds with your down stroke, the pull out makes six and the down stroke makes seven. That's seven stokes with one motion.

The Moeller has three different ranges: low, half and full. In the low Moeller the wrist generates the stroke. In the Half Moeller the elbow generates the stroke and in the full Moeller the stick is actually raised over the head.

Dom also integrates the idea of the free stroke or formal control stroke into his Moeller technique for use when you do not need to generate an accent. you can use a simple down stroke generated by the wrist to execute a stroke. One example of that is the Purdie shuffle as described above.

In this sense, you get a full range of motion, from low to full with a wide range of stroke types generated with just one motion. Overall, it's a little bit different from what Jojo is doing, but the fundamental concept is the same.

[Alex Luce]

I don't agree with the notion that there are three levels of Moeller. In It's Your Move Dom Famularo said he desinged this concept, and so I don't think it was taught by Moeller, Morello or Chapin. There is no fundamental difference in the motion going from loud to soft, there is just less of it. It's an arm stroke, and it starts in the upper arm. That is where the power comes from.

All due respect to Famularo, who without we would know much less about Moeller technique. But in the book he says with low moeller (which I am assuming is a quieter version of the stroke) "the elbow moves only in reaction to the wrist." I find that hard to believe.

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

I don't agree with the notion that there are three levels of Moeller. In It's Your Move Dom Famularo said he desinged this concept, and so I don't think it was taught by Moeller, Morello or Chapin. There is no fundamental difference in the motion going from loud to soft, there is just less of it. It's an arm stroke, and it starts in the upper arm. That is where the power comes from.

All due respect to Famularo, who without we would know much less about Moeller technique. But in the book he says with low moeller (which I am assuming is a quieter version of the stroke) "the elbow moves only in reaction to the wrist." I find that hard to believe.

Regards,

Alex

Excellent point, Dom has the idea of the full range of motion. Actually, it's possible that the low Moeller comes out of Joe Morello's application. He talks about lifting the wrist for an added accented sound. In Joe's idea you have a finger stroke, wrist stroke and low Moeller. It's is somewhat like Jojo Mayer's idea of the different gears and I wonder if he adapted it from Joe.

It may well be the case that the half Moeller comes out of JIm Chapin and the full Moeller is a Dom idea and then he integrated the levels as his system. It would be an interesting question to ask if half Moeller is actually something that Moeller taught as what the Moeller technique was. It seems to me that is what you are saying, no? As an addition. it would seem that the low Moeller is an adaption for drum set that comes as you use the Moeller to attain speed.

[Boomka]

Excellent point, Dom has the idea of the full range of motion. Actually, it's possible that the low Moeller comes out of Joe Morello's application. He talks about lifting the wrist for an added accented sound. In Joe's idea you have a finger stroke, wrist stroke and low Moeller. It's is somewhat like Jojo Mayer's idea of the different gears and I wonder if he adapted it from Joe.

It may well be the case that the half Moeller comes out of JIm Chapin and the full Moeller is a Dom idea and then he integrated the levels as his system. It would be an interesting question to ask if half Moeller is actually something that Moeller taught as what the Moeller technique was. It seems to me that is what you are saying, no? As an addition. it would seem that the low Moeller is an adaption for drum set that comes as you use the Moeller to attain speed.

The only guy I know of who could accurately answer that is Mr. Chapin.

[Alex Luce]

Excellent point, Dom has the idea of the full range of motion. Actually, it's possible that the low Moeller comes out of Joe Morello's application. He talks about lifting the wrist for an added accented sound. In Joe's idea you have a finger stroke, wrist stroke and low Moeller. It's is somewhat like Jojo Mayer's idea of the different gears and I wonder if he adapted it from Joe.

It may well be the case that the half Moeller comes out of JIm Chapin and the full Moeller is a Dom idea and then he integrated the levels as his system. It would be an interesting question to ask if half Moeller is actually something that Moeller taught as what the Moeller technique was. It seems to me that is what you are saying, no? As an addition. it would seem that the low Moeller is an adaption for drum set that comes as you use the Moeller to attain speed.

Yeah Ken, you really know this stuff.

As Dom explains his three levels of Moeller, it seems that the "half Moeller" is the "regular" version of the stroke. Then when talking about the full Moeller, he says -- "It is based on the half Moeller, but the stick swings above your head in a bigger arc." To me this is like, give me a break with the terminology, it is the same thing, just BIGGER!

I love this video of Daniel Adair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZppaVp2STp4 , one of my favorite drummers, who at one point is using a huge motion on the drums in this solo (sigh, I guess you could call it full Moeller), and displaying unbelievable double-kick chops. But there are few musical applications for motions this big in drumming, unless you are playing stadiums, like he does. And even then, in his latest interview in Modern Drummer, Daniel said he primarily plays like that to create visual excitement, not to create a specific type of sound on the drums.

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

Great video. Ironically, Daniel studied with Dom. He actually looks a lot like Dom when he is playing. You can see those high Moeller's. In retrospect, I remember Dom saying he got the idea from watching Kenny Aronoff. Dom really sees Moeller as the basis of everything, and when you are playing in these stadium situations, in can generate, as Bill calls it, "a big sound. "

How would you relate the lever stroke to Moeller? When you play, it could definitely be seen as a Moeller thing; or should I say mistaken for Moeller?

[Alex Luce]

Ken: The principle of the lever stroke is the entire arm is used in every stroke, no matter how small. It also is not dependent on grip -- for example, it is also used with French grip. As you said before, the essence of Moeller is the whip. The whip is not possible with French grip, because the upper arm doesn't swing out in the stroke (like it does with German and traditional). The whipping of the wrist is made possible by upper arm swinging out from the body in German and traditional grip. The ripple of momentum generated from that motion then travels down from the upper arm, into the forearm and to the wrist.

You said "In Joe's idea you have a finger stroke, wrist stroke and low Moeller." That is brilliant, I would completely agree with Morello, except I would also say in each one of those motions the entire arm is involved. With the finger stroke, the upper arm movement is subtle but it is there. But it is important to realize that the fingers do start the motion, it just travels backwards (as opposed to Moeller) from the hand and into the upper arm.

To me, Moeller is a variation of the lever stroke that adds the whipping motion. For example, it is possible to do full strokes in German grip without doing the whip -- you just start with the hand up -- and I think this is what Morello would call the wrist stroke. But if you want to get bigger, you have to add the Moeller whip, so you start with the hand down.

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

Ken: The principle of the lever stroke is the entire arm is used in every stroke, no matter how small. It also is not dependent on grip -- for example, it is also used with French grip. As you said before, the essence of Moeller is the whip. The whip is not possible with French grip, because the upper arm doesn't swing out in the stroke (like it does with German and traditional). The whipping of the wrist is made possible by upper arm swinging out from the body in German and traditional grip. The ripple of momentum generated from that motion then travels down from the upper arm, into the forearm and to the wrist.

You said "In Joe's idea you have a finger stroke, wrist stroke and low Moeller." That is brilliant, I would completely agree with Morello, except I would also say in each one of those motions the entire arm is involved. With the finger stroke, the upper arm movement is subtle but it is there. But it is important to realize that the fingers do start the motion, it just travels backwards (as opposed to Moeller) from the hand and into the upper arm.

To me, Moeller is a variation of the lever stroke that adds the whipping motion. For example, it is possible to do full strokes in German grip without doing the whip -- you just start with the hand up -- and I think this is what Morello would call the wrist stroke. But if you want to get bigger, you have to add the Moeller whip, so you start with the hand down.

Regards,

Alex

The idea of always engaging the arm is the one thing I had a problem getting with the lever stroke. I could get it when I was talking to you about it. I would have moments where it seemed clear. I had been using that concept from watching Dennis Chambers play. I really get the feeling it is coming from the whole arm moving in motion. I might actually be using it, and am just not fully aware of it. I think one of the problems I have is that I always practice quietly. Now I am working on a lot of French grip and trying to develop a Bill Stewart style of acoustic chamber jazz. The only time I get to do the Full Moeller is in the car listening to metal at a red light.:)

In addition, I think Dom would say that you can use the Moeller in any hand position including French grip. Then I think it is exactly like the lever stroke in French grip.

[Alex Luce]

The best way I can explain it is the lever stroke joins the levers of the arm into a single functioning unit. It literally turns the arm into a drumming machine. So you can't move one part of the arm without moving the other -- it is all connected. If you aren't sure the entire arm is being used when playing, I would have to say you are not using the lever stroke. The lever system creates a powerful feeling of motion...almost as strong as a reflex. I think the feeling can be compared to riding a bike. Once learned there isn’t a question of being able to do it -- you know you can.

I am aware of Dom's opinion with Moeller and French grip, I have also seen the video where he tries to demonstrate it. It's a big leap to make. Moeller came from snare drumming. French grip is not used for snare drumming, and it never was. I doubt Moeller himself ever used the grip. Also, we had a discussion on another thread which I thought dispelled this idea, if you want to check it out: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40838

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

There would really be no reason to use French grip with a Moeller whip because if you are using French grip to grant a more subtle style and quicker reflex, you are not going to need the power. I wonder what Bill Stewart would say about taht since he uses a French grip in both hands.

Moeller does grant a show, and its history with Gene Krupa would illustrate that. It is grand, and as in the video with Daniel Adair you can see that.When you are in a stadium situation, that speaks to the far walls. But I would submit that every stroke the Joe Morello uses is just as grand in its conception. He is always aware of the motion, which I think is the feel and the sound. The motion is the emotion.:)

[Alex Luce]

I think French grip is absolutely necessary when playing drumset, so you can get around the kit fluidly without rotating your torso. Because of its rotational action it is also great for the cymbals. The stroke also packs plenty of power, in my opinion -- without trying to add some kind of whipping motion -- which as you know I don't think works anyway.

I love Joe Morello, and I have a lot of respect for you because I know how much you admire him. Every time I see Joe play, I say to myself, "that is what good technique is supposed to look like."

Regards,

Alex

[Deltadrummer]

Thanks for the kind words. I enjoy talking about technique with you. It always gives me some fresh, new insights. thanks

Ken

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Ken: The principle of the lever stroke is the entire arm is used in every stroke, no matter how small. It also is not dependent on grip -- for example, it is also used with French grip. As you said before, the essence of Moeller is the whip. The whip is not possible with French grip, because the upper arm doesn't swing out in the stroke (like it does with German and traditional).
In a low Moeller, there is barely any upper arm movement, and you can do something like the Moeller in French. I haven't devoted much time to this, just putting out there that there may be something to develop there.

The whipping of the wrist is made possible by upper arm swinging out from the body in German and traditional grip. The ripple of momentum generated from that motion then travels down from the upper arm, into the forearm and to the wrist.
No. At least the way Dom teaches the whip, it starts in the forearm. The argument that the upper arm must be involved is countered very simply by immobilizing your upper arm by, say, taping it to your body (let's just imagine it, okay, nobody actually do this please...). It is now entirely possible to play a low Moeller....


..... For example, it is possible to do full strokes in German grip without doing the whip -- you just start with the hand up -- and I think this is what Morello would call the wrist stroke. But if you want to get bigger, you have to add the Moeller whip, so you start with the hand down.
..

Well, yes, inasmuch as the full stroke and the Moeller stroke are two very different strokes. The full stroke starts and ends with the stick in vertical position, the Moeller starts and ends low. you actually can generate more from the full stroke by doing the stroke Morello coined the power stroke. This is performed from the vertical stick position by "kicking" out the elbow as if striking something. And here is would say the wrist acts as a powerful lever, transmitting that force to the drum.

All in all, I completely agree that the entire arm is involved in many situations in drumming. But to say the upper arm is necessarily involved in for example finger strokes I just don't buy.

Casper

[Deltadrummer]

Actually, we use the low Moeller in French grip all the time on the cymbal. It seems so obvious; it's so easy to overlook.

One of the things I like about Alex's approach is the idea of keeping the full arm energized and involved in the movement. Even if the full arm is not engaged in the finger movement, which I am not sure one way of another, the energy is still moving down from the upper arm to that area. When it does function that way, it feels right. The upper arm is probably engaged because if you move your fingers, you can feel it in the upper arm.

[donv]

Again, Mayer covers this in his technique video. It depends how you're playing the technique and/or the speed at which you're playing. Moeller can be done as a natural outcome of how you move your arms, or as control is learned, it's all controlled bounce.

[Alex Luce]

Okay. So how do you move your arms?

[Unevil]

I didn't read all the replies, so not sure if this was already clearly answered, but the Moeller stroke is not dependent on rebound. Rebound often helps as you start out inexperienced just as fingers not holding your sticks tight while performing a double stroke roll helps out when you start playing double strokes---it helps. However, if you have seen Jojo's Secret Weapons Video, he shows that no rebound is needed. He can play on his leg, a pillow, and a pizza just as fast as he can on a drum with moeller technique.

[Jeff Almeyda]

Enough with the pizzas already!!!

Pizzas happen to have plenty of rebound (it's the pepperoni). Try it on a bowl of clam chowder if you want to impress me.

[donv]

Okay. So how do you move your arms?

Back to Mayer's DVD on technique because it's the best current visual I'm aware of. By moving your elbow away from your body which lifts your arm, the result is a natural lift and pull from the drum of your wrist. Mayer shows the technique exactly the same way I was taught in 68. By beginning with slow exaggerated movements musle memory is created and gradually as technique is improved the exagerated movement isn't necessary. Oddly enough, years later while marching the exagerated movement was brought back and expected because the exagerated movement by everyone in step looked good. Everyone looking the same as they played was as important as everyone playing the same in unison.

Now this may be controversial, but I believe that moeller can also be done with your feet. Of course the mechanics are different, but the result is the same. The best example I know of this is Montrose's "Rock Candy." It's played with and without the whip with a single bass drum and a heel toe technique is not used. It's nothing but playing the bounce of the beater and getting ahead of, or behind the motion of the footboard by sliding your foot That may not make a lot sense. It's easier shown then written about.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Enough with the pizzas already!!!

Pizzas happen to have plenty of rebound (it's the pepperoni). Try it on a bowl of clam chowder if you want to impress me.

Precisely! Same thing with jeans. Pepperoni and jeans are examples of using non-crazy, but adequate amounts of rebound to your best advantage....

C

[druid]

Enough with the pizzas already!!!

Pizzas happen to have plenty of rebound (it's the pepperoni). Try it on a bowl of clam chowder if you want to impress me.

I tired a bowl of chili the other night but could not get more than one bounce happening at all.

[Alex Luce]

By moving your elbow away from your body which lifts your arm, the result is a natural lift and pull from the drum of your wrist. Mayer shows the technique exactly the same way I was taught in 68. By beginning with slow exaggerated movements musle memory is created and gradually as technique is improved the exagerated movement isn't necessary.

This is pretty good, I am impressed with your answer. I think this is like the "power stroke" Caspar was talking about earlier. [Caspar, please correct me if I am wrong.] And as you said, as the technique is improved or developed, the movement of the elbow away from the body lessens. However, I have noticed even with expert players, the elbow will swing out sometimes when certain patterns are performed.

With myself, if I hold on firmly to the stick and play slow single strokes the elbow will always swing out. But when I loosen the grip there will only be a slight outward movement. But the point I have been trying to make on these threads for the past couple years is this outward swing of the elbow in traditional and German grip is critical to the development of expert technique. It doesn't matter if the strokes are informal, formal, if you are using Moeller or whatever, it should be part of your playing. This is where I and a number of famous drum teachers disagree. But I am not going to shut up...ha ha!

Below is a picture of me doing the stroke I am talking about. I was holding onto the drumstick firmly for demonstration purposes, to show the exaggerated motion.

[donv]

""outward swing of the elbow in traditional and German grip is critical to the development of expert technique.""

I don't see how anyone could disagree with that let alone argue it. Watch some of the videos of Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, or Buddy Rich. Ever wonder how Williams is counting his incrdible polyrthyms? Watch his elbow while he's on ride cymbal. A lot of drummers will lift their shoulders and get tight at times to replace the elbow swing. Weckl and Copeland were good fr that motion.

I've often found the answers to what someone was doing by paying more attention to their movements rather then intense concentration to their playing.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

""outward swing of the elbow in traditional and German grip is critical to the development of expert technique.""

I don't see how anyone could disagree with that let alone argue it. ......

I don't think anyone has said you never should, or will, move your elbow. Indeed, we sometimes do, and a few examples are

The Power Stroke (kicking the elbow out with the stick in vertical position)
Half and full Moellers
Balls to the wall playing (JoJo's 3rd gear)

However, there is no need to move the elbow for many other maneuvers. And in those cases where the elbow swings out as a result of the wrist's motion: let it! I don't see is any need to introduce a system based on using the entire arm for, say, half strokes. That is a waste of motion, and I stand fiercely for economy of motion!

Casper

[donv]

I don't think anyone has said you never should, or will, move your elbow. Indeed, we sometimes do, and a few examples are

The Power Stroke (kicking the elbow out with the stick in vertical position)
Half and full Moellers
Balls to the wall playing (JoJo's 3rd gear)

However, there is no need to move the elbow for many other maneuvers. And in those cases where the elbow swings out as a result of the wrist's motion: let it! I don't see is any need to introduce a system based on using the entire arm for, say, half strokes. That is a waste of motion, and I stand fiercely for economy of motion!

Casper

What he said was, "critical to the development of good techniuqe." Economized motion is a by product of good technique.

If you watch the videos here, and I sure haven't seen them all, motion becomes the metronome. Doesn't matter if it's nodding your head, chewing gum, swiinging your elbow, in marching it is the marching, etcc. Except for the marching, none of the above is necessary motion, but take it away the metronme stops. All you need to do is watch other drummers to figure out what there metronome is. How many drummers have you seen go through the motion of playing the hi hat at the footboard, but not carry it up top? Almost every jazz drummer. Is that wasted motion? If it is, you're saying almost every jazz drummer out there has bad technique because it's wasted motion which is wasted energy because it's ultimately not productive in your opinion.

Economized motion is good for saving energy, but if you're not keeping time, what's the point? It's been my experience from talking to other drummers that when playing, we exchanged "counting numbers" for something else and that something else is motion.

My first teacher would always say, "you don't know enough yet to listen, so watch." I think it's some of the best advice ever given. Excpet for a period in my late teens when I knew everything, I listen now but I never quit watching because it tells everything.

[Deltadrummer]

I don't see how anyone could disagree with that let alone argue it. Watch some of the videos of Tony Williams, Elvin Jones, or Buddy Rich. Ever wonder how Williams is counting his incredible poly-rhythms? .

This is a good point, but one does not even need to take it to that level. Understanding motion (technique) grants you a consistency of sound and that ultimately makes its study a must for any serious drummer. Motion or technique is feel and sound. (Now I can't stop from chuckling at the double entendre there.)

[donv]

This is a good point, but one does not even need to take it to that level. Understanding motion (technique) grants you a consistency of sound and that ultimately makes its study a must for any serious drummer. Motion or technique is feel and sound. (Now I can't stop from chuckling at the double entendre there.)

I understand your point, but to the beginning drummer as much or more can be learned by watching another drummer then by listening. Like Felix the Cat, Until you've developed and understand your bag of tricks, you don't have a clue of what's happening by listening. Watching starts with, "What's she\he doing," but becomes, "How is she\he doing that?" And it's all in the motion.

You can practice paradiddles 5 hours a day and become a paradiddle machine, but I guarantee that there is someone out there playing paradiddles in some manner that even as a paradiddle machine, you're going to wonder how they are doing what they're doing. If having the score in front of you was all it took, we'd all be perect drummers, but we're not. The nuance is in the motion.

There's not a time when I watch a video I don't say to myself, "I wish we had these when I was a kid!" The visual is just soooo freaking much to learnin. Except for Rock Concert and Midnight Special, you had to go see someone live. Of course live is best. It's how I met Buddy Rich twice.

Another exercise, watch your videos with the sound off. Concentrate on what it is you start to pay attention to without the sound on. It's also the joy of Silent Movies.

Here's an interesting concept. While in college I had to take a class called "Ways of Learing." The confidence interval of the IQ of musicians compard to non-muscians is almost off the scale. It's credited to the idea that we use so many tools to learn with. Motion, the visual, the hearing and even to the point of the posture crap you go through with piano lessons. We are trained to concentrate on more of our environment then is typically used in the standard classroom environment. For drummers, the primary focus of our concentration is on timing, motion and visual.

[Deltadrummer]

I totally agree. I teach very young children and even older kids. It is all about imitation and watching. I could talk to them about up stroke and down stroke, rebound and control stroke till I'm blue in the face. They'll never get it. Sit them down across from me playing and imitating me and they're doing it all.

I was talking about the ability to execute complex poly-rhythms and its relation to movement, which was a great comment and insight. It the concept to a whole new level and value of technique. I just thought we had overlooked the obvious middle ground and that is executing a groove that is consistent in feel and sound from measure to measure. Proper technique makes that a possibility.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

What he said was, "critical to the development of good techniuqe." Economized motion is a by product of good technique.

If you watch the videos here, and I sure haven't seen them all, motion becomes the metronome. Doesn't matter if it's nodding your head, chewing gum, swiinging your elbow, in marching it is the marching, etcc. Except for the marching, none of the above is necessary motion, but take it away the metronme stops. All you need to do is watch other drummers to figure out what there metronome is. How many drummers have you seen go through the motion of playing the hi hat at the footboard, but not carry it up top? Almost every jazz drummer. Is that wasted motion? If it is, you're saying almost every jazz drummer out there has bad technique because it's wasted motion which is wasted energy because it's ultimately not productive in your opinion.

Economized motion is good for saving energy, but if you're not keeping time, what's the point? It's been my experience from talking to other drummers that when playing, we exchanged "counting numbers" for something else and that something else is motion.

...

Chewing gum and nodding your head? I though we were talking about whether elbow swinging should be taught as a part of every technique or not. I think it shouldn't be. I don't have a whole lot to contribute to discussions about chewing gum, or nodding your head. See my previous posts for my explanations why elbow movement is not needed for low to full strokes, as well as low Moellers.

Casper

[donv]

Chewing gum and nodding your head? I though we were talking about whether elbow swinging should be taught as a part of every technique or not. I think it shouldn't be. I don't have a whole lot to contribute to discussions about chewing gum, or nodding your head. See my previous posts for my explanations why elbow movement is not needed for low to full strokes, as well as low Moellers.

Casper

I was discussing what you determined to be wasted motion. Why would it be wasted? I concluded because you think isn't necessary. If it's not necessary, it's wasted motion. To that thinking there is alot of wasted or unnecessary motions depending on who is making the decisions about wasted and unnecessary motion. Nodding your head and gum.

A lot of people want their cake and eat it too!

When did you learn of Moeller in your playing? No real need to answer that. I'm going to be ending vacation in about an hour, and the internet along with the tv will be gone. If I don't do that, I waste too much time.

[donv]

Chewing gum and nodding your head? I though we were talking about whether elbow swinging should be taught as a part of every technique or not. I think it shouldn't be. I don't have a whole lot to contribute to discussions about chewing gum, or nodding your head. See my previous posts for my explanations why elbow movement is not needed for low to full strokes, as well as low Moellers.

Casper

Waiting for the rain to end and then I'm on my way to the Carolina's. Anyway, just watched your videos and guess what? You're swinging your elbow! lol The exagerated motion is for those just learning which you're obviously not doing.

[druid]

I tired a bowl of chili the other night but could not get more than one bounce happening at all.

Addendum...I also broke three cermaic bowls doing this ....so I would not try at home folks.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Waiting for the rain to end and then I'm on my way to the Carolina's. Anyway, just watched your videos and guess what? You're swinging your elbow! lol The exagerated motion is for those just learning which you're obviously not doing.

First, thanks for watching my videos, I really do appreciate that!

Yes, I do use my entire body to play the set, absolutely. This is my natural expression when moving around the kit, and there are as many styles for that as there are drummers, I think.

I think it is important to learn and study the minimal movements, i.e. the free stroke, which is played from the wrist; the Moeller pumping motion, which, if the wrist is flush, includes just little elbow motion, but which is 90% whip; and finally, the low, half, and full moeller, of which the half and full are full arm exercises.

That is how I learned it: on the pad for almost 2 years with Dom, before he moved me to the kit. I stress that the whole body is used for kit playing. The pad is where we study the economy of motion and apply it after.

The main thing is that we keep practicing.....

Regards,
Casper

[donv]

Breaking a self imposed rule here, but what else are rules for?

Bonham was good for this. It would look like he was set to play his ride, but instead of hitting the cymbal he would extend his arm about 2 more inches, then hit the cymbal, then pull his arm and stick back to the original position and then do it all again. It's a motion of 3 events, or triplets. Watching him play different songs you can see by where he starts this motion what one note of the triplet he plays on the ride.

Now this is where this gets esoteric. I'm of the opinion that most of the "feeling" discussion is a bunch of horse hockey. "Feelings, wo wo wo, Fellings!! When Bonham used this motion to ride triplets he was physically experiencing triplets through motion. Besides, it's just such a darn easy way to pick which notes of one-ep-let, two-ep-let, etc. you want to play. To me, that's what playing with feeling was all about. Expereinceing the motion. To some, I think it means fire up another bowl. lol Been there-done that and that is nothing but numbing feelings, but you don't know that until you come to realize it yourself. I also see our quarrel was nothing but semantics.

Anyway, hell yes, practice, practice, practice.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Breaking a self imposed rule here, but what else are rules for?

Bonham was good for this. It would look like he was set to play his ride, but instead of hitting the cymbal he would extend his arm about 2 more inches, then hit the cymbal, then pull his arm and stick back to the original position and then do it all again. It's a motion of 3 events, or triplets. Watching him play different songs you can see by where he starts this motion what one note of the triplet he plays on the ride.

Now this is where this gets esoteric. I'm of the opinion that most of the "feeling" discussion is a bunch of horse hockey. "Feelings, wo wo wo, Fellings!! When Bonham used this motion to ride triplets he was physically experiencing triplets through motion. Besides, it's just such a darn easy way to pick which notes of one-ep-let, two-ep-let, etc. you want to play. To me, that's what playing with feeling was all about. Expereinceing the motion. To some, I think it means fire up another bowl. lol Been there-done that and that is nothing but numbing feelings, but you don't know that until you come to realize it yourself. I also see our quarrel was nothing but semantics.

Anyway, hell yes, practice, practice, practice.

I totally agree with your "feeling" statement. People who want to learn to play with feeling are often saying they don't want to learn proper technique. And that is a shame.

The masters come up with all kinds of signature movements and habits. Not a good idea to imitate them a lot of the time. There are time tested, rock solid, no nonsense basic drum movement that use total economy of motion.

Learn those first.....

It is an iterative process. On the pad, working on your ("you" here means an unnamed young student) low stroke, just the wrist is working. Your mind is in every movement, everything is analyzed. Later, in Madison Square Garden, you're playing a low stroke in the middle of a ballad that has the entire audience, and the band, crying. Now,that low stroke may not look exactly like the one you practiced in your musty rehearsal studio. But your hand has been through it 2000 times, and it knows the movement. So now you're playing with feeling, forgetting everything around you, just wailing.

That is why I teach the free stroke and the Moeller. It is not music, but it is a darn good vehicle for producing music!

Casper

[donv]

The masters come up with all kinds of signature movements and habits. Not a good idea to imitate them a lot of the time. There are time tested, rock solid, no nonsense basic drum movement that use total economy of motion.

Learn those first.....


Casper

I agree. I think studying the motion of others only puts you--no one individual either--in perspective to understand your own motions. Somewhere else I wrote and stick by, spend some time watching video's with no sound. Like silent movies you create your own dialogue.

About feelings! lol Again I agree, but you went farther then would have. I just got a pm telling me to get my facts straight before posting because I commited the crime of mixing up Glover and Lord.

I've enjoyed this along with your website Casper, thanks.

[Deltadrummer]

I would add that technique is musical because technique is sound, and sound in alone of itself is a necessary component to creating music. Never mind the fact that movement is feel, motion is emotion. So feel + technique = movement + sound = expression.

One of the reasons I teach Moeller is because many of my students "sound" better using the technique. Guys like Gladstone, The Stones and Moeller talked about sound that with their students. Not speed, not feel, but sound. I remember when I first heard Gadd. It was his sound the totally blew me away. The same could be said for guys like Bonham and Tony Williams, and I am sure many people would have similar stories. the sound is the power of the great drummer, and then later you realize the chops, the feel, the groove, the creativity are there as well.

I would also say that it is a good idea to study the motion of the masters. That is what Sanford Moeller did with the Civil War drummers. Experiment and find your sound.

[Alex Luce]

The masters come up with all kinds of signature movements and habits. Not a good idea to imitate them a lot of the time. There are time tested, rock solid, no nonsense basic drum movement that use total economy of motion.Casper

Any motion a master drummer executes is channeled directly to the drum. There is no wasted motion, no matter how much arm movement you see.

If you think you can learn more from some economical technique developed for the practice pad -- as opposed to the musical expression of a master -- you are kidding yourself.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Any motion a master drummer executes is channeled directly to the drum. There is no wasted motion, no matter how much arm movement you see.

If you think you can learn more from some economical technique developed for the practice pad -- as opposed to the musical expression of a master -- you are kidding yourself.

The free stroke was developed by the masters, and I will restate my only message in this thread: correct execution of the free stroke and the low Moeller does not involve the whole arm. And if it does, you are wasting motion.

Casper

[Alex Luce]

The free stroke was developed by the masters, and I will restate my only message in this thread: correct execution of the free stroke and the low Moeller does not involve the whole arm. And if it does, you are wasting motion.

This is amusing to me, because as far as I am concerned, neither one of these strokes exist. They sure weren't taught when I was coming up.

The free stroke is misnamed. It is simply a full stroke that is allowed to rebound. It would be better called the rebound stroke.

There is no such thing as a Moeller stroke that doesn't involve the entire arm. That is the point of the whole thing. Use the entire arm to generate as much power and/or rebound as possible...even when playing at low volumes.

I am sure you've seen the Vic Firth video of Dom demonstrating the supposed "low Moeller stroke". His upper arms are moving, don't you see that?

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

Regards,

Alex

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

This is amusing to me, because as far as I am concerned, neither one of these strokes exist. They sure weren't taught when I was coming up.

The free stroke is misnamed. It is simply a full stroke that is allowed to rebound. It would be better called the rebound stroke.

There is no such thing as a Moeller stroke that doesn't involve the entire arm. That is the point of the whole thing. Use the entire arm to generate as much power and/or rebound as possible...even when playing at low volumes.

I am sure you've seen the Vic Firth video of Dom demonstrating the supposed "low Moeller stroke". His upper arms are moving, don't you see that?

http://www.vicfirth.com/education/drumset/domfamularo.html

Regards,

Alex

Just because the arm is moving doesn't mean the "entire arm is generating" the stroke. Sure, my upper arm will move a little, my body probably will too, and I am sure my head will bob a little. But the free stroke is generated from the wrist. To say otherwise is like trying to fit a golf ball in an ice cube rack.....Finn Higgins, may he rest in peace, once told me Dom is using the "third finger fulcrum", and he used one of Dom's own videos as evidence....Reminds me a little of this exchange......I have spent many hours with the man, and I can assure you Dom teaches the free stroke from the wrist.

I don't think the written medium is going to get us any closer to agreement. If I taped myself up around the torso and executed a perfect free stroke, or rebound stroke, would you be convinced?

Playfully yours,
Casper
Casper

[Boomka]

This is amusing to me, because as far as I am concerned, neither one of these strokes exist. They sure weren't taught when I was coming up.

Either was the so-called "Lever Stroke" around where/when I was taught. I guess that means it does not exist. I suppose we all have our brand loyalties.

Smarmily, interferingly yours,

Boomka

[donv]

Use the entire arm to generate as much power and/or rebound as possible...even when playing at low volumes.Alex

Alex,

I have no interest or desire to get into the middle of this but this statement touches on my personal nemisis and current primary goal. "As much power" and "at low volumes" just seems so counterintuitive that if you would explain your thinking behind the statement, I sure would appreciate it.

[Alex Luce]

I don't think the written medium is going to get us any closer to agreement. If I taped myself up around the torso and executed a perfect free stroke, or rebound stroke, would you be convinced?

Yes, Casper, I would! Ha ha! I think you hit the nail on the head here. One of my goals this summer is to do some videos which further explain my concepts. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a moving picture must be worth a million.

Anyway, I know you disagree, and that Dom teaches it differently, but my concept/theory is that small amount of movement you see in the upper arm with great players is not a result of the wrist movement, but the engine that drives it. The motion starts in the upper arm/shoulder girdle, and creates a ripple of momentum down the arm. This momentum or kinetic energy ultimately drives the stick into the drum.

This is why I believe there is no such thing as "wasted motion" when it comes to the technique of master drummers (Dom included). The lever system of the arm turns it into an interconnected machine, kind of like the drivetrain of a car, except there is no transmission. Any energy generated by the engine must be delivered to the wheels (hands) -- there is nowhere else it can go.

Regards,

Alex

[Alex Luce]

Either was the so-called "Lever Stroke" around where/when I was taught. I guess that means it does not exist. I suppose we all have our brand loyalties

Touche, my boy. Yes, I came up with that name when I researched the motion I use to play the drums. When you study how the arm works, I just don't see how a drumming motion that uses the entire arm can be called anything else. But it will probably take many years of me whining about it until other drummers and teachers come to the same conclusion.

I just hate the name "free stroke". But it is becoming pretty well-accepted, so I guess it is just something I am going to have to deal with!!

Regards,

Alex

[Alex Luce]

Alex,

I have no interest or desire to get into the middle of this but this statement touches on my personal nemisis and current primary goal. "As much power" and "at low volumes" just seems so counterintuitive that if you would explain your thinking behind the statement, I sure would appreciate it.

Well at the risk of beating a dead horse here I am just talking about using the whole arm when making a stroke. As I said before, the engine of the stroke is the upper arm. But it is also possible to start the stroke with the fingers. When that is done, the motion is reversed and flows into the upper arm. You can think of it like push-starting a manual transmission car in first gear. The wheels move and then the engine turns.

But my theory with Moeller is that the stroke is always flowing FROM the upper arm. But the motion of the arm does change when the movement becomes smaller. It is more of a circular then a whipping motion. I think Jojo demonstrates that in his video.

Regards,

Alex

[donv]

Well at the risk of beating a dead horse here I am just talking about using the whole arm when making a stroke. As I said before, the engine of the stroke is the upper arm. But it is also possible to start the stroke with the fingers. When that is done, the motion is reversed and flows into the upper arm. You can think of it like push-starting a manual transmission car in first gear. The wheels move and then the engine turns.

But my theory with Moeller is that the stroke is always flowing FROM the upper arm. But the motion of the arm does change when the movement becomes smaller. It is more of a circular then a whipping motion. I think Jojo demonstrates that in his video.

Regards,

Alex

Alex,

Thanks for responding. Mayer's DVD does demonstrate the motion. Your statement was this though:

"Use the entire arm to generate as much power and/or rebound as possible...even when playing at low volumes."

How about,

"Use the entire arm to generate only as much power and/or rebound as needed for the playing volume."

Otherwise, where or how do you dissipate the energy generated but not required for lower volumes?

Thanks again.

[Alex Luce]

Yes, that was unclear. If I was constantly using the entire arm to generate as much power as possible the result would be a consistently loud volume. The point I was trying to make is the whole arm is involved throughout the entire dynamic range of the stroke.

Regards,

Alex

[Boomka]

Touche, my boy. Yes, I came up with that name when I researched the motion I use to play the drums. When you study how the arm works, I just don't see how a drumming motion that uses the entire arm can be called anything else. But it will probably take many years of me whining about it until other drummers and teachers come to the same conclusion.

I just hate the name "free stroke". But it is becoming pretty well-accepted, so I guess it is just something I am going to have to deal with!!

Regards,

Alex

I'm not as concerned with the labels as the principles underlying making a good drum stroke; both for my own use, and that of my students. Though I do agree that the "Free Stroke" is more a stroke of marketing genius than a useful description. Like I said, there is a strange phenomenon occurring these days. At the same time that there is more information available than ever before about drumming techniques, so much of that information is simply piggybacking on attempts to sell merchandise: i.e. everything from fancily named strokes, to DVDs, magazines, sticks, pads, drumsets. I'm not saying you're necessarily guilty of any of that, in fact. I think that the point that you're trying to make rings true; we do use most of the arm to some degree in the strokes we make.

But it seems to me that the core of the disagreement you're having with Caspar is to do with terminology and catorgorisation rather than a significant disagreement over the fundamentals of a good stroke.

Dom Famularo's grid of techniques (e.g. Low Moeller, informal, Germanic...), though surrounded in marketing smoke and mirrors, is about creating a system that will help students focus in on the potential variations that a drum stroke may take. So saying "the upper arm doesn't move in the Low Moeller" isn't so much about denying that the bicep and tricep are clearly involved, as trying to point out to the student that the bulk of the movement is taking place below the elbow. So while the musculature of the upper arm may be in action, the weight of the humurus is not really engaged, and we shouldn't be activating the deltoids and rhomboids to any great degree for such a stroke.

I have my differences with Dom's system of teaching strokes and find terminology like "American Grip" to be utter nonsense. But I do see where he's coming from - he's simply trying to create a taxonomy that will help students sift through the incredible amount of information coming at them and hopefully see the connection between all the different strokes. You're using a wider-angle lense and focussing on the connective tissue (pardon the pun). I see value in focussing on both the small and the big picture, depending on the lense needed at the time. And in the few times I've met Dom, he definitely wouldn't deny the reality that his upper arm is involved in his Low Moeller stroke. He'd simply point out (rightly as anyone with eyes can see) that it isn't the part that's doing most of the moving.

[donv]

Yes, that was unclear. If I was constantly using the entire arm to generate as much power as possible the result would be a consistently loud volume. The point I was trying to make is the whole arm is involved throughout the entire dynamic range of the stroke.

Regards,

Alex

For my own playing I agree. I like to study the motion of other drummers and it seems some relegate the subtle motion to the nonexistent motion. Yet it's in the subtle I think I've learned the most.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

"[Dom] definitely wouldn't deny the reality that his upper arm is involved in his Low Moeller stroke. He'd simply point out (rightly as anyone with eyes can see) that it isn't the part that's doing most of the moving. "

Said, Boomka. Totally true, and it is the same way with that wrist stroke that I call the free stroke (and I'll tell you why I like that label: I felt totally free when I played it for the first time!). It is a wrist stroke, and....that's really it. to say the whole arm is involved is at best untrue, at worst damaging, as students try desperately to fit large muscle movement into what is one of the simplest, most beautiful, and amazing drum techniques.

To say that "subtle" arm movement is involved misses the point: if you know how to play a wrist stroke, you will know it is played from there. Sure, by way of the laws of motion, the reaction force causes the elbow (if relaxed) to move some, but that is a reaction. To say it is an integral or even important part of the wrist stroke is like saying a little hat on the back seat of a car causes it to run....

Casper

[Alex Luce]

And in the few times I've met Dom, he definitely wouldn't deny the reality that his upper arm is involved in his Low Moeller stroke. He'd simply point out (rightly as anyone with eyes can see) that it isn't the part that's doing most of the moving.

Boomka: Casper said: "correct execution of the free stroke and the low Moeller does not involve the whole arm. And if it does, you are wasting motion."

So do you agree that Dom is wasting motion?

[Alex Luce]

to say the whole arm is involved is at best untrue, at worst damaging, as students try desperately to fit large muscle movement into what is one of the simplest, most beautiful, and amazing drum techniques.

Casper: Right. Why would I want to use the larger muscles and levers of my body to create a powerful full stroke, when I can just limit myself to one half of the power available by using only one half of my arm?

Regards,

Alex

[donv]

"[Dom] definitely wouldn't deny the reality that his upper arm is involved in his Low Moeller stroke. He'd simply point out (rightly as anyone with eyes can see) that it isn't the part that's doing most of the moving. "

Said, Boomka. Totally true, and it is the same way with that wrist stroke that I call the free stroke (and I'll tell you why I like that label: I felt totally free when I played it for the first time!). It is a wrist stroke, and....that's really it. to say the whole arm is involved is at best untrue, at worst damaging, as students try desperately to fit large muscle movement into what is one of the simplest, most beautiful, and amazing drum techniques.

To say that "subtle" arm movement is involved misses the point: if you know how to play a wrist stroke, you will know it is played from there. Sure, by way of the laws of motion, the reaction force causes the elbow (if relaxed) to move some, but that is a reaction. To say it is an integral or even important part of the wrist stroke is like saying a little hat on the back seat of a car causes it to run....

Casper

Casper,

I can see how you injected what I wrote into the discussion, but it wasn't my intention as I said when I questioned Alex. Subtle movements does miss the point because it had to do with something entirely different then your discussion with him. A good example of having to do with what I asked Alex is this. I use to have a hard time maintaining a dotted eighth shuffle\boggie ride pattern. Not because it's difficult, but because most guitar players seem to want to fall into a triplet feel and they ultimately win the battle because they carry the melody. From talking to other drummers this problem was nothing unique to me. I spent some time watching New Orleans style shuffle drummers and they all had some kind of motion going on, and some not so subtle, that I interpreted as locking them into the dotted eigth rhythm. I experimented with some of what I observed and came up with a method that worked for me to keep everyone on a consistent rhythm that I couldn't lock in until I watched what others were doing.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Casper: Right. Why would I want to use the larger muscles and levers of my body to create a powerful full stroke, when I can just limit myself to one half of the power available by using only one half of my arm?

Regards,

Alex

The free stroke played using your whole arm is called the power stroke. It's just another stroke, that's all. It's used if you want more power starting in vertical position. More power, that is, than a "normal" free stroke played from the wrist. It's a hierarchy:

Low stroke: a little wrist
Half stroke: a little more wrist
Full stroke: maximal power from the wrist alone
All the above three are free strokes

Power stroke: full wrist and full arm, starting and ending vertical

Low Moeller: wrist (from forearm), starting and ending low
Half Moeller: full arm and shoulder, starting and ending low
Full Moeller: starting in the butt, rippling through the whole body, and breaking hoops!

Casper

[Boomka]

Boomka: Casper said: "correct execution of the free stroke and the low Moeller does not involve the whole arm. And if it does, you are wasting motion."

So do you agree that Dom is wasting motion?

No, I think that this matter between you and Casper could be fixed with a little attention to definitions and syntax.

If I get Casper correctly, he's not talking about the flexing of the biceps and triceps, but about the upper arm coming out from the body via contraction of the deltoids and rhomboids. That is - as I said - that the weight of the humurus is not involved in creating the force of the Low Moeller stroke. I think we all understand that the motor that drives any particular part of the arm is - in large part - in the section of arm/body above it - i.e. fingers/wrist powered by forearm, forearm powered by triceps and biceps and the humerus/upper arm powered by the deltoids, rhomboids, and trapezoids.

This all seems to come down to a misunderstanding over the word motion. At least where I'm sitting... You mean muscle contraction, he means the swinging out of the upper arm from the body to provide leverage to lift the forearm.

[Boomka]

Casper: Right. Why would I want to use the larger muscles and levers of my body to create a powerful full stroke, when I can just limit myself to one half of the power available by using only one half of my arm?

Regards,

Alex

...because in many situations you don't need that much power?

[thomas77]

I am not sure how helpful these kinds of advice are, especially on a thread where so much excellent input has already been given. (Except the pepperoni pizza comments, of course!) Most of us weren't lucky enough to start playing the drums at the age of two and develop a beautiful, natural stroke like Jojo.

If you look at great NBA players (Kobe and LeBron for example), they all shoot the ball EXACTLY the same way. There is a reason for this. Given the design of the human body, it is the most natural, efficient and powerful way to do it. Drumming isn't much different. Since we are all anatomically alike, what works for me will also work for you. There will always be certain exceptions, but those are a rarity.

Unless you happen to be a natural drumming genius, it is best to learn the rules before you try to break them.

Regards,

Alex

Sorry I thought music was an art form! All the greats expressed themselves, and technique was found as a by product of that expression.

[bjparadiddle]

With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!

I am passionate about understanding, and being able to explain the motions. I wasted a lot of time growing up because I didn't know anything about the free stroke. Had I learned that (and since it was coined by Stone, believe me, it was there..), many calories and hours spent in frustration would have been saved. I want to pass that gift on to the next generation of drummers. When someone says something that goes against that basic philosophy, which I believe, after having learned it from john Riley, Dom, Sanchez, and others, I take issue with them. It is my duty to share and pass on the wisdom I gleaned from these masters.

And I will never quit, because I really do think it matters. That is what a technique forum is for, I think: to share information and wisdom between us....

Casper

[Alex Luce]

No, I think that this matter between you and Casper could be fixed with a little attention to definitions and syntax.

If I get Casper correctly, he's not talking about the flexing of the biceps and triceps, but about the upper arm coming out from the body via contraction of the deltoids and rhomboids. That is - as I said - that the weight of the humurus is not involved in creating the force of the Low Moeller stroke. I think we all understand that the motor that drives any particular part of the arm is - in large part - in the section of arm/body above it - i.e. fingers/wrist powered by forearm, forearm powered by triceps and biceps and the humerus/upper arm powered by the deltoids, rhomboids, and trapezoids.

This all seems to come down to a misunderstanding over the word motion. At least where I'm sitting... You mean muscle contraction, he means the swinging out of the upper arm from the body to provide leverage to lift the forearm.

Boomka:

I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts to try and understand where I am coming from. Let me tell you, Casper and I are talking about two completely different things.

I learned the fundamental motion that I use to play the drums 25 years ago when I was a student at North Texas. It's the motion that Casper calls the power stroke. But most importantly, it's a feeling. It's a feeling of motion that I experience throughout my entire arms when I am drumming. And I use this feeling for every stroke I play, from ppp to fff. So Casper can talk all he wants about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to learn to play the drums, but I play the drums the way I trained my body to do it, with the levers of the arm working in perfect synchronization for every stroke I make. There is no such thing as wasted motion in my playing. Every movement has a purpose, and every motion channels the energy from the lever system of my arm into the drums.

I believe there is only one fundamental drum stroke, which is that feeling of motion I was talking about. How that stroke actually hits the drum depends on what type of grip you are using, but the feeling is the same for all the grips. When I want to play what Casper calls the free stroke, I simply loosen my grip and let the stick rebound. When I want to use Moeller, I simply start the stroke with the hand down instead of the hand up.

The stroke that I use is based on the same way that young children play the drums. They can't use just their wrists or their fingers, they don't have the dexterity. They use their whole arms when they hit the drums, because that is the only way they can strike them. Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

For Casper to say that it is not a good idea to imitate the motions of the master drummers, while suggesting there is some kind of "extra" movement in their playing is really misguided. The art form of drumming today is at an incredibly high level. Complex and powerful music requires perfect execution of motion. When you are watching a master drummer, how to do it is being displayed right in front of you. Think about it, if you could match those motions exactly, you could play the drums like that too! Drum playing is the art of motion, a famous drummer once said.

There are no extra strokes or movement in the drumming of a master any more than there are extra strokes in a Leondardo Da Vinci painting. This is why when Dom's upper arm swings out from his body in that video, it is evidence that it is not a reaction, but the action that begins the stroke. Exactly like you said above, the motion lifts the forearm. When the forearm goes up, the hand goes down and the stick hits the drum. Look for this motion in the masters when they use German grip. You will see it all the time.

Okay, enough of this rant.

Out.

[Boomka]

Alex,

While it's clear to me that you don't want to go 'round the Maypole on this matter any more, I do feel the need to respond to one thing you said.

Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm always struck by the fact that so many of the masters studied hard and applied the principles passed to them by masters of a previous generation.

Louis Bellson had his father, Roy Knapp and finally Murray Spivack.
Joe Morello had Stone and Gladstone (as did one of my teachers, Ray Reilly, who I would consider a master).
Tony Williams had Alan Dawson.
Gadd went to Eastman and served in the Army bands.
Garibaldi studied with Spivack.
Vinnie Colaiuta had Chaffee, and went to Spivack when he nearly had to quit due to pain in his hands.
Dave Weckl had his teachers in St. Louis, then Gary Chester, and lately Gruber.
Jeff Porcaro had his father.
Even after initial success, Max Roach went to the Manhattan School and studied classical percussion techniques.
In Scottish drumming, because it's ensemble based, everyone learns from their forbears. Guys like Alex Duthart, Jim Blackley, etc. all had significant instruction. Ditto the Swiss Basel school.
In the world of classical percussion, a strong training pedigree is nearly universal. I mean, who even owns a xylophone or has a set of timps at home?

(Oh, and Ed Soph, as you know, shares your Alma Mater...)

I could go on, but the thing that sticks out to me is how few of the legends of our craft made it to the top of the heap without a good amount of help from good teachers along the way. I quick perusal of the names on the Drummerworld homepage shows that the vast majority of those drummers had some or a lot of instruction in the fundamentals of stroke motions at some point or another in their careers. If we widen the lense to include various drumming traditions from around the world (Afro-Cuban, West African, Indian Dhal and Tabla) we again find that personal transmission from previous masters is a common element in the development of elite players.

[Deltadrummer]

Wow, thanks for that. I know you are a teacher yourself. Sometimes I feel it is a thankless job. Thank god the financial rewards just make up for it. :P esp in these trying financial times for us guys who teach and play funk'n jazz drumming. I always liked that line.

Mainstream American culture is one that often does not value education. And those who do spend the time to learn about these things often feel a bit alienated from the mainstream. You have to do it for the love and that openness that it brings you. Your post is a wise assessment of the value of education and gives us all a boost in the arm.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

......The stroke that I use is based on the same way that young children play the drums. ......... Don't you find it interesting how many self-taught drummers have risen to the level of mastery, without learning or knowing about all these supposed different strokes and techniques that are necessary to play the drums?

For Casper to say that it is not a good idea to imitate the motions of the master drummers, while suggesting there is some kind of "extra" movement in their playing is really misguided. ......


Are you saying the masters play like children now?

What I said about the masters, like 30 posts back, in passing, was that sometimes the basic movements are not easy for mortals to distill when we watch any drummer. Some people can easily get it, others can't. I couldn't....

So I suggest the student learns the basic movements, from someone who has explaining that as his or her specialty. Sorry I didn't get that across.

Casper

[thomas77]

With all due respect to those engaged in these rudimental ruminations (we all go through them), perhaps the best thing to do would be to QUIT THINKING TOO MUCH! The energy you use in pursuing your rudimental perfectionism would be better spent playing along with records, learning harmony on the piano, working on the reading of music, and playing grooves with a metronome. Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? Do you want to be "nice house, but nobody's home?" Whether your pinky is raised when you play the cymbal, or if your "fulcrum" is on the second knuckle of your third finger, or your "pressure point" lies between the pad of your thumb and forefinger, or at the side of your thumb and your ring finger...oh, to hell with it, guys, just play the music!

This is a sensible man.

[thomas77]

Alex,

While it's clear to me that you don't want to go 'round the Maypole on this matter any more, I do feel the need to respond to one thing you said.



Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm always struck by the fact that so many of the masters studied hard and applied the principles passed to them by masters of a previous generation.

Louis Bellson had his father, Roy Knapp and finally Murray Spivack.
Joe Morello had Stone and Gladstone (as did one of my teachers, Ray Reilly, who I would consider a master).
Tony Williams had Alan Dawson.
Gadd went to Eastman and served in the Army bands.
Garibaldi studied with Spivack.
Vinnie Colaiuta had Chaffee, and went to Spivack when he nearly had to quit due to pain in his hands.
Dave Weckl had his teachers in St. Louis, then Gary Chester, and lately Gruber.
Jeff Porcaro had his father.
Even after initial success, Max Roach went to the Manhattan School and studied classical percussion techniques.
In Scottish drumming, because it's ensemble based, everyone learns from their forbears. Guys like Alex Duthart, Jim Blackley, etc. all had significant instruction. Ditto the Swiss Basel school.
In the world of classical percussion, a strong training pedigree is nearly universal. I mean, who even owns a xylophone or has a set of timps at home?

(Oh, and Ed Soph, as you know, shares your Alma Mater...)

I could go on, but the thing that sticks out to me is how few of the legends of our craft made it to the top of the heap without a good amount of help from good teachers along the way. I quick perusal of the names on the Drummerworld homepage shows that the vast majority of those drummers had some or a lot of instruction in the fundamentals of stroke motions at some point or another in their careers. If we widen the lense to include various drumming traditions from around the world (Afro-Cuban, West African, Indian Dhal and Tabla) we again find that personal transmission from previous masters is a common element in the development of elite players.

So What are you saying? That only jazz men can be masters? Blinkered.

[witchcraftery]

It's actually really funny to see this topic. I was self taught for my first 3 years of drumming... and I was doing moeller with my horrible 4/4 drum beats repeated over 9000 times before it was ever presented to me as a stroke/technique. I never even noticed I was doing it.

Also, starship troopers is a sick movie.

[witchcraftery]

[QUOTE=bjparadiddle;584096] Do you seriously want to end up like Dom Famularo, who plays with no one? [QUOTE]

Dude... I <3 Dom Famularo.

[Boomka]

So What are you saying? That only jazz men can be masters? Blinkered.

Yup, that's clearly what I'm saying...

[thomas77]

Yup, that's clearly what I'm saying...

Al Jackson, Stewert Copeland, John Bonham, Stanton Moore, Johnny Rabb, Levon Helm. Are you actually suggesting that these men are not masters of their art/craft?

[Boomka]

Al Jackson, Stewert Copeland, John Bonham, Stanton Moore, Johnny Rabb, Levon Helm. Are you actually suggesting that these men are not masters of their art/craft?

Hacks, one and all.

202020202020

[donv]

Hacks, one and all.

202020202020

I hope you stick to fresh water fishing! Hate to see what you would hook where the whales swim!