Other musicians time feel

[larryace]

OK so I'm at a band rehearsal yesterday. It was just the leader of the band who plays guitar, a bass player and myself. We're learning "Knock on Wood". We just couldn't get it to feel right. I know for sure it is because the guitar players time is just not developed, and ameteurish. So I'm trying to educate him on how to lay back a little, and it's going nowhere. He's cool about it though. OK so I suggested to force him to lay back we'd try the song at almost half speed. Within a minute we were right back at the only tempo he can play it at, and I got swept right along with it, a little at a time. I realized that it was futile and resigned myself to the fact that he can only do it at one tempo, and he could not even make that feel right Aaaaah! At least he is cordial and readily accepts suggestions without getting 'tude. As you know, this creates a dilemma for us drummers. Do we fight every sped up note and hold him back the entire time? I hate that and it is exhausting and it can't sound good. Or do I just go with the flow and keep it reigned in as best as I can, not the ideal situation either when the song really should be more laid back. The best bands have people who ALL have a great sense of tempo, feel and meter. It is so hard to play with people who pull at the tempo, going ever faster, or dragging on the other end of the spectrum. I'm just venting, I'm better now thanks ha ha.

[Pollyanna]

... a dilemma for us drummers. Do we fight every sped up note and hold him back the entire time? I hate that and it is exhausting and it can't sound good. Or do I just go with the flow and keep it reigned in as best as I can, not the ideal situation either when the song really should be more laid back.

Larry, is this your main band? If so, I'm surprised because I loved your guitarist's playing on the MP3s you put up.

You might have been venting but it's a good question and one I'm confused about.

In the 80s I was lucky enough to play with guitarists and bassists who had great time. Current band not so good time-wise and it's affected my own time. Too often I'm unsure of things instead of just hearing and doing it. There's a fair bit of speeding up going on.

I agree it's hard when you are always trying to pull other players back. Sometimes I work pretty hard at it and sometimes I give up and go with the flow because it's more fun.

I'm not a purist. A moderate speedup as a song builds up can be exciting to me, but some songs need consistenvy to really work.

Have you made any progress or had a light bulb moment since you started this thread?

[larryace]

No Polly this was the band w/ that guy Paul, that I was going to quit but he fired the whole band instead. I don't have this issue with the remaining 2 bands I'm in thankfully

[Plantagenet]

Sounds like a bit of swings and roundabouts.
You are lucky that this guy is at least amicable and willing to listen.

I have been very lucky to be in several bands over the years which were blessed with excellent musicians. (If there is ever any trouble with timing its usually me that struggles)
But every band I have been in has been like being in the argument sketch from Monty Python.
I'm sure its not JUST me.

I guess you aren't looking for solutions as you said yourself you were just ranting.
Of course you know that it is only up to you to decide how much you can put up with.

Good luck either way.

[Pollyanna]

No Polly this was the band w/ that guy Paul, that I was going to quit but he fired the whole band instead. I don't have this issue with the remaining 2 bands I'm in thankfully

That makes sense. I found it hard to imagine the guitarist in BB having problems playing anything!

So I'm now the only one with with problem - lol

[larryace]

No BB has musicians with good tempo and meter for the most part, no one is spot on all the time, myself included. I'm exhausted after playing sets that I have to hold back everybody, or pull them along, it's really no fun and can't sound right.

I like to start songs off with my count because I'm the only one in my bands who really thinks hard about tempo, and realizes it's importance, because it's SOOO vital to the feel of the song. When other guys start tunes wrong, too fast usually...that's when I insist on counting them in.

I lost a gig once when I (mistakenly) said to the "dictator" type leader, "Hey Joe what do you want me to do when you start a song off too slow, bring it up to the right tempo or just play it at the tempo you started it at?" Wrong thing to say to this guy. He was of the midset that you can play a song at any tempo and sound right, I am more strict in the range of tempos that I feel are correct for the particular song. Well he took this as blasphemy and that was the last I heard from him. He never fired me, just quietly replaced me. The new drummer was even using my kit I had at his house until I got the word that someone else took my place. Now I watch my wording when trying to explain tempo issues I have.

[lbishov]

It's funny, but most band members ALWAYS blame the drummer for tempo variations. Have you ever watched a guitar play tap his foot to the beat? Most times its not steady at all, yet its the drummer who gets the blame.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Hey Larry. In my experience this is a problem with a lot of guitar players for some reason. I always employed the 'safety in numbers' approach. Use your bass player.....a unified front between bass and drums means a really tight rythm section. When you lock in with your bass player and he sits right with you, it creates a rythm or pulse that simply can't be ignored by other players. There are two of you...hence, my 'safety in numbers' description. Then you control the tempo, but you've got that anchored support of a bass player who right in the pocket with you.

Worked for me in pretty much every band I've ever played in. Put in the time to lock in with your bass player....the two become one, so to speak and together you create a more powerful and focused rythm that others then can't ignore. Your bass player is your right hand man. Together you make up the 'rythm section'. Don't be afraid to use him as such.

Good luck.

[larryace]

PFOG, While I don't disagree with what you said, it doesn't address the issue of wrong tempos. You can't be in the pocket if you're adjusting the tempo up or down. Anymore, I'll just stay at the tempo it's started at. That way I don't "get in trouble" for altering anything. It's the responsibility of the person starting the song to choose the right tempo. If they can't do it to my liking, I "suggest" that I count them in. Wrong tempos really bug me, it detracts from the feel.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

If they can't do it to my liking, I "suggest" that I count them in.

Probably your best option then. That way you can take control of the tempo from start to finish.

[jon e rotten]

If the person singing and/or playing lead are more comfortable at a different speed then I usually comply. I will usually have them count it off also, so everyone realizes who is in control of the initial tempo. I definately feel your pain. I also play in several different bands also, and sometimes I can't believe how different players interpret tempo. Even experienced musicians. Don't let it get to you, this is supposed to be fun.....I think.

[Pollyanna]

I always employed the 'safety in numbers' approach. Use your bass player.....a unified front between bass and drums means a really tight rythm section. When you lock in with your bass player and he sits right with you, it creates a rythm or pulse that simply can't be ignored by other players. There are two of you...hence, my 'safety in numbers' description. Then you control the tempo, but you've got that anchored support of a bass player who right in the pocket with you.

Good comment. I've had a strong musical relationship with our singer for some time but I'm moving more towards focusing on working with our bassist and you're right, the two of us when working closely together do become harder to ignore ... which isn't to say we aren't still ignored at times.

It's like we're in politics and forming a voting bloc on the tempo :)

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Good comment. I've had a strong musical relationship with our singer for some time but I'm moving more towards focusing on working with our bassist and you're right, the two of us when working closely together do become harder to ignore ... which isn't to say we aren't still ignored at times.

It's like we're in politics and forming a voting bloc on the tempo :)

Yep, I've generally had good musical relationships with guits, keys etc, but with bass players I tend to go one further and form much tighter relationships. I've always focused on making sure the rythm section was the tightest it could be. Makes it easier to nail tempo's, develop the right feel or mood and set a solid foundation for other instruments and vox.

So much flows from a well grounded bass/drum relationship I feel. Just think Chad/Flea, JPJ/Bonzo, the list could go on.

Nothing better than a bass groove right in the pocket with you. It helps me 'feel' it as opposed to just 'playing' it!

[rootheart]

OK so I'm at a band rehearsal yesterday. It was just the leader of the band who plays guitar, a bass player and myself. We're learning "Knock on Wood". We just couldn't get it to feel right.

Secred of the song is that it is "extremly sow", laid back...to play it way slower than you think..Problem is: if you have an audience you want to raise from their seats the band tries to play it like a seat raising song, way too fast...which it is not. and the band tend to play it much faster than the original..it is the laid back tempo that creates a friction between feeling and the urge for the audience to move to move and dance

[grannydrums]

i'm starting to sound like a creaking gate now, but i will say it again that my time keeping is so bad that I cannot play without a metronome. I know what speed the songs are that we choose to play. If everybody is trying to race ahead and I am trying to hold them back, then I have to say---shall i put the tempo up or shall we all hold back. I have to click everything in because i am working to the metronome. But even now they say sometimes that I slow down on a fill or a distorted chorus, when actually i know i am on the button, but they have rushed ahead all together and therefore think I am slow.

timing is so difficult sometimes. I find it is easier to just say it is my fault we are wrong and could we please do it again---much easier than having spatts about who is to blame.

[larryace]

Secred of the song is that it is "extremly sow", laid back...to play it way slower than you think..Problem is: if you have an audience you want to raise from their seats the band tries to play it like a seat raising song, way too fast...which it is not. and the band tend to play it much faster than the original..it is the laid back tempo that creates a friction between feeling and the urge for the audience to move to move and dance

Tell my ex bandleader/guitar player all this. I was trying to keep him reigned in but, I COULDN"T DO IT! He won ha ha but the song lost. The man was only capable of playing it at one speed, what can I say. The bass player didn't help as he is a follower, so it was 2 against 1, and I hate fighting with the tempo. Sometimes you just have to realize peoples limitations and work with what ya got.

[wy yung]

Tell my ex bandleader/guitar player all this. I was trying to keep him reigned in but, I COULDN"T DO IT! He won ha ha but the song lost. The man was only capable of playing it at one speed, what can I say. The bass player didn't help as he is a follower, so it was 2 against 1, and I hate fighting with the tempo. Sometimes you just have to realize peoples limitations and work with what ya got.

Larry is it possible to have his amp set so that you cannot hear it? In the past when I played with musicians who did this I simply ignored them. If the bassist had good time I'd have him set up right next to me. The guys with bad time would position their amp's so as to be well below the bassist.

[Pollyanna]

i am working to the metronome. But even now they say sometimes that I slow down on a fill or a distorted chorus, when actually i know i am on the button, but they have rushed ahead all together and therefore think I am slow.

Granny, you hit it on the button. We were learning a song. Our singer told me the tempo he wanted and I worked out the BPM on my metronome. The next week I set my tempo with the 'nome and started up. He told me it was too fast - lol

Our perception of tempo often depends on mood. Since most people crap their pants a bit before "musical public speaking", live performances tend to be faster. How often are songs played faster on live albums? Heaps. There's a tradeoff. The song loses a lot of its true vibe but gains in energy and dynamism. I usually prefer the studio versions but plenty have the opposite view.

We might feel tired, sharp, grumpy, jolly, uncentred, focused whatever and there's potentially a few BPM variation in any of those.

Wy, think your approach is a good one but not easy to put in practice. Our keys guy is a speed freak (musically, not chemically). A lot of it is insecurity. If I asked him to turn his speaker away from me it would 1) upset him and 2) make him more insecure. So I just work much harder to ignore him, but I know I've caved in under the pressure at times.

[larryace]

Another excellent post Polly.
I so agree w/ your "perception of tempo often depends on the mood". The key word is perception. We have to train ourselves to get it right no matter what the mood. But the other's perception is where we catch the flak. Cut the flack Roberta.

Also agree w/ live albums are faster. I'd rather hear it played properly, even if it means less energy. A good song will stand on it's own. Tempos are really important to nail right, they're harder than good meter IMO.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Our perception of tempo often depends on mood. Since most people crap their pants a bit before "musical public speaking", live performances tend to be faster. How often are songs played faster on live albums? Heaps. There's a tradeoff. The song loses a lot of its true vibe but gains in energy and dynamism. I usually prefer the studio versions but plenty have the opposite view.


Excellent description Polly. So, so true IMO.

I'm case by case on live v session though FWIW.

[criz p. critter]

I'm experiencing this also in a band I just joined. Three of the guys have pretty good time and usually know where they are in the song. The guitar and harp players know they're supposed to listen to the bass and me and follow us. But the other guitarist/singer has a pretty big problem. He'll just drop or pick up a beat or two sometimes, come in late or early and not realize he's the only one that's off.

Or his tempo will start to take off, have nothing in common with the rest of us, but he'll have no idea. We were starting to play a song the other night. He started strumming it, and I came in at the same tempo. Then he said, "No, no, that's way too fast. It has to be a lot slower." So he counts it off and we started playing it again... way too slowly. Within 30 seconds he had accelerated back to the initial tempo, just him alone out in front of the band, which was still playing at the slow tempo he called it at. But he's oblivious that it's happening.

I look at him when this happens, and it seems to me that he is so inside his own head, he's not really hearing the whole band. I've come to the conclusion that it's because he must not have played that much with other people. Hopefully that will improve as he gets more experience. But in the meantime, as larryace said, what do you do? Seems to me, in my case, the whole band has to shift to follow the singer. If he's not listening, he's not going to realize his mistake, and he's not going to fix it. But it sure does rub me the wrong way, and it just feels plain wrong for the guy who's supposed to keep the beat to be jumping all around trying to follow the one guy who has no idea where it is!

[larryace]

I feel your pain brother. There really is no definitive answer as to what you should do...trying to explain tempo fluctuations to people like you described, is like trying to teach a dog to fly. If he isn't the "power figure" in the band, maybe you can have a sit down with him and the rest of the band and try and educate this person about what meter and tempo are. But ultimately it's all up to his skill set. He either has it, or not, and either can't/won't develop it, or is willing to try. Hopefully he is willing to try. In my case, I just accepted that he can't do it, and drop any songs that he "ruins"

[mcbike]

I always go for a peacekeeper mentality when it comes to different opinions on time. Just try to be the glue that keeps everybody together. Sometimes players just aren't listening or they might see something that you don't.

The only time I don't budge the tempo is when vocalists stretch the phrases and go all over the place. You can't concede to them, and sometimes they are phrasing over the barline on purpose. This happens alot especially in ballads, I've had it get so bad I had to add extra downbeats in a 6/8 to keep the arrangement together. 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 1 1 2 3 4 5 6. hahah. I don't do that anymore, I just move on and let them catch up. If they miss is that bad they can have a whole extra measure or 5.

I look at time like it's a big wheel spinning and some players feel the beat at 12 o'clock some at 2 or 3 others at 11 or 10. I tend to play behind the beat most of the time at 11 o'clock.

[Pollyanna]

... Just try to be the glue that keeps everybody together. Sometimes players just aren't listening or they might see something that you don't.

The only time I don't budge the tempo is when vocalists stretch the phrases and go all over the place. You can't concede to them, and sometimes they are phrasing over the barline on purpose. This happens alot especially in ballads, I've had it get so bad I had to add extra downbeats in a 6/8 to keep the arrangement together. 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 1 1 2 3 4 5 6. hahah. I don't do that anymore, I just move on and let them catch up. If they miss is that bad they can have a whole extra measure or 5.

I look at time like it's a big wheel spinning and some players feel the beat at 12 o'clock some at 2 or 3 others at 11 or 10. I tend to play behind the beat most of the time at 11 o'clock.

Mcbike, tough call with the bar of 8 in a 6/8 lol. It drives me nuts when I start songs just ticking the hats on 2 and 4 and the bozo who starts with me hears it as 1 & 3 (when we've only played it as 2 and 4 twenty times!) and I have to add an extra tick and turn inside out. - 2 - 4 - 2 - 4 1 - 3 - 1 ...

Being "the glue that keeps everybody together". That's the crux of the issue with this thread IMO.

But are we doing that for today or the future? If we only care about today then we have to cater to the LCD in the band to make each musical moment as good as we can. But that doesn't do anything to stop the speeders, draggers and wobblers from making the songs less than they could be. I find I nag and compromise a lot, which is why I'm now moving more towards much more focus on our bassist, which is what I did when playing with better bands in the 80s.

Trouble is, if you get too bass-oriented you can miss some tasty opportunities to add spice. It's a balancing act.

Larry and Pocket, re: live albums being faster. There are some vids of Steely Dan playing live on YouTube. I especialy love Babylon Sisters but when I saw the live vid it seemed a tad slow and didn't quite have the energy of the studio version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McGPwPDcY4Y and at times feels like it's dragging to me. Yet I expect that it's technically spot on and I'm probably just missing the Bernard Purdie shuffle.

What seems to be the most satisfying tempo for a song depends the lines people are playing. Larry, I reckon we sometimes cop a bit of Roberta (haha) for tempo issues when we just play a slightly different pattern.

Criz P, it looks like a band talk is in order. Christmas is coming up soon. Maybe Santa can put a shiny new Boss or Korg metronome in his stocking? Also attach a song list complete with preferred BPMs.

Dear Singer

We just KNOW you will enjoy MANY HOURS with this ESSENTIAL tool!

Love

The Band :)

[criz p. critter]

Criz P, it looks like a band talk is in order. Christmas is coming up soon. Maybe Santa can put a shiny new Boss or Korg metronome in his stocking? Also attach a song list complete with preferred BPMs.[/I]

Everyone else does comment on his failings (gently). And I've offered advice on specific songs. But I'm new to the band, and don't know him that well, so I'm still keeping a little quiet.

Good idea on the metronome. Yeah he needs a good one with a "downbeat" feature, cuz he also has trouble feeling where the "one" is. (Seems so simple and obvious to me, but how do you teach someone that if they don't already feel it?) I'll discreetly ask if he has one!

I'm just hoping it's a case of the more he plays with a full band, the better he'll listen.