Confusion about "ahead/behind the beat"

[VedranS]

Ok, so "behind" the beat is just a bit after "it", and "ahead" is just before it, right? Now, what I'm confused about is when people talk about doing this as a drummer, what is it exactly that's ahead or behind? If we're talking about a metronome, it's self explanatory, you're playing relative to the click.

However, when playing with people, we as the drummer essentially "create" the beat, right? So, then are we talking about keeping the ride ostinato (whatever the musical style happens to be) "on" the beat, and then having the down/up/back-beats be placed relative to the hats or ride or whatever? Or is it just the snare back-beat that's ahead/behind? Is the kick also involved? Do just certain beats get slightly displaced, say the 2 and 4 or the 1 and 3, or maybe up-beats, or is it certain voices, such as the bass or snare that get moved? Does the whole shebang, including ride ostinato, get moved, in which case, what exactly dictates where the "beat" is? If you don't keep any limb "on" the beat, wouldn't other musicians just think you're rushing or dragging? Also, what's a good amount of displacement? Should it be "flammy", or should it be moved even less than that? Or should it be more, so the "beat" and where you hit register as two notes?

Anyway, sorry about the long winded post, I just came across this concept agian, and I've got giant holes in my education. I was hoping that some of the experienced players around here could help clarify this idea for me. Thanks a ton for any help.

[Pat Petrillo]

Playing "ahead of the beat" = Rushing

Playing "behind the beat" = Dragging

Really, that's about it in a nutshell. I don't believe in practicing "ahead" or "behind"...It's hard enough to aim for the middle! The other things take care of themselves.

Time is elastic, so, "feel" is how you play "RELATIVE" to the click...as well as how your approach, attitude, overall mix, and vibe.

Time is not just a magazine.

Keep groovin!

[Jeff Almeyda]

Here's a good way to look at it:

Imagine the click has a light (many do).

If you are ahead of the beat it looks as if your hit is causing the light to go on. If you are in the center of the beat it will look as if you and the light are one. If you are behind the beat it will look as if the light is triggering your hit to strike.

You can, of course, be way behind or just a little behind just as you can be way out front or just a little.

[hungrypo]

John Bonham = behind
Stewart Copeland = ahead
Phil Rudd = dead centre

those are three examples of three great drummers with completely different time feels. i think the difference between the three is how you accent the pulse, or how long you let the accent hang in the air until the next note. really accentuating the accents (downbeats, backbeats, and eigth-note ride patterns) seem to lead to a more laid-back/behind the beat feel.

when i listen to Zeppelin, it always feels as though John Bonham is drawing out every single eight-note and really giving consideration to the spaces in-between.

Stewart Copeland has a tendency to push to the next note, and often seems to be fighting the bass player to see who can get the to the next beat first (which makes sense considering him and Sting never really got along).

Phil Rudd seems locked in to the centre of the groove, especially since the bass in lots of AC/DC tunes is pumping straight-8th's.

but playing ahead or behind isn't about flamming, or dragging one limb in respect to the others. its really about how the band as a whole feels the time: does the band really like sit on the pauses, drag them out and play each note with deliberation? do they like to play with a lot of energy and excitement and borderline frenzy? do they like to play simple, direct melodies and rhythms?

in a jazz context you can look at the difference between Jimmy Cobb on Kind of Blue, and Tony Williams on ESP. Jimmy's dead centre on the beat, Tony is more elastic, pushing and pulling as he sees fit.

[Guz2]

I thought Phil Rudd played slightly behind?

[caddywumpus]

Playing ahead of or behind the beat will change the feel of the song. The "beat", in the case of live performances, is created by everyone onstage. When you play with good players, and everyone is locked in, the pulse takes on a life of it's own--separate from the musicians playing, it seems. Kind of a "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" thing. When this happens, you can really start exploring different feels in the song, but only if it's appropriate.

Playing ahead/behind the beat is only a very slight modification of where you place the time. If you play slightly ahead/behind, it will sound great, like you're driving/laying back the groove. If you play a little bit more ahead of or behind, it has the opposite effect (it will sound as if you're dragging/rushing) and if you play a little more ahead/behind than THAT, it will just sound BAD.

Most people play either a little ahead or a little behind naturally. Being able to navigate these tricky waters and do both effectively takes time and practice (more so with other musicians than with a metronome). It's more about playing the right feel to the right song than it is trying out a groove style that contrasts with the mood of the particular song you're playing. When it happens right, it's a beautiful thing...

Good luck!

[Chris Oyens]

I agree 100% with what Pat Petrillo says. I had a chance to talk about this subject with Jeff Porcaro once and he said this whole discussion is bogus! He really didn't believe in it, he told me, "just play for the music, the rest will take care of itself". It's advice I've really tried to follow considering where it came from; a TOTAL authority on the subject.

What I would like to add (and it's really just a personal observation) is that seeing great "feel" players such as Porcaro and Gadd, one thing these guys have in common I noticed is that they like to listen to the tune BEFORE they sit at the drum kit. When you think of it, it's a great idea, not only for learning the tune but to listen a bit to the artist singing it. That way you can figure out how HE/SHE positions himself relative to the song. You will already notice if the artist rushes a bit his singing or if he/she is laid back, etc... That will give you a perspective on how you will play the song.

[Dibalo Jonze]

Does the whole shebang, including ride ostinato, get moved, in which case, what exactly dictates where the "beat" is? If you don't keep any limb "on" the beat, wouldn't other musicians just think you're rushing or dragging? .

Hey Vedran-

That's a great question. Let me try to answer it as I understand it, since I once asked myself the same thing. Mainly, "if playing behind/ahead of the beat to a metronome is in relation to the click, what are you playing behind/ahead of when you are playing live without a click?"

The easiest way to do it is like you guessed, using your ride/HH ostinato as the click and playing around that. In other words I do not displace the whole 'shebang', I just move the snare since its volume and attack serves well as the pivotal anchor that everyone on stage and in the audience can both feel and hear.

As CaddyW said, with great players who know how a song should feel, everyone's playing can help create the beat or "click," whether their contribution is expressed as the strum of a guitar or the pluck of a bass spring. And so in the case of playing with great musicians who are all sharing the feel, you can displace what all four limbs are doing together (displacing the whole "shebang"). But usually with less experienced bands, if a drummer can create the beat by laying down a solid reference (or click) with the ride hand, and then creating the feel or pocket around that with the left hand, then I think that is the best way to go. You want them to know where the time is with the right hand so that you can slightly manipulate it with the left. Otherwise if you displace what all four limbs are doing a microsecond later (to play behind the beat), there is nothing to suggest WHAT it is you are playing behind and the other players may play dead-on with you, so that the feel end up just being "right on top". Nothing wrong with "right on top" if that's what the music calls for, but if its playing ahead or behind that you're after, I say keep your ride hand steady as a click and use your left hand to create that pocket. Hope this makes sense.

Practice loads to a metronome. I like to pretty much lock my ride hand in with the click and then use my left hand to create the effect of either landing ever so slightly ahead of or slightly behind the click. I'm not going for a major flamming sound (unless its a funk groove that really wants to be laid back), but rather minor extension of the sound of the click on beats 2 & 4 by having the end of either the click or snare note mark the beginning of the other. It is a great and effective tool to use. Try setting the click to a bpm you are comfortable with and lock in for a few minutes. Then try playing for a while slightly behind the click and after that transfer your backbeats to slightly ahead of the click. If done properly you should be able to make the behind the beat playing feel like it is a slightly slower temp and the ahead of the beat groove feel like its a little faster, even though they are both being played to the same tempo.

I respectfully have to disagree with Mr. Petrillo. I think if done properly playing ahead of the beat makes the music feel aggressive and driving, with good forward motion. Effectively playing behind the beat makes the music feel relaxed and laid back. I think if a song feels like it is rushing or dragging, then the music simply does not feel good. And remember even though your snare backbeat may come slightly earlier than the click, you are not rushing the music since your right hand ostinato remains dead-on and still respects the amount of time that should be given to each quarter-note in any given bpm. Don't change the time, which is what happens when music rushes or drags. Instead manipulate the time and create the illusion that it is faster/more-upbeat or slower/more-laid-back than it actually is.

Lastly, I mentioned I think that the snare is the most important sound source to use when manipulating the time. But still pay attention to where your kick is landing because it doesn't make sense if you're trying to play behind the beat but your kick keeps landing a bit early. One additional trick you can use is when you are trying to play behind the beat, try "swinging" all the 1/16th notes that your kick plays (or that your snare hand plays as ghost notes). By playing all offbeat 1/16th notes more like the third note in a swung triplet, you are effectively slightly delaying when these notes land, which creates more space in the groove and makes if feel more laid back.

Hope that helps!

[caddywumpus]

I agree 100% with what Pat Petrillo says. I had a chance to talk about this subject with Jeff Porcaro once and he said this whole discussion is bogus! He really didn't believe in it, he told me, "just play for the music, the rest will take care of itself". It's advice I've really tried to follow considering where it came from; a TOTAL authority on the subject.

What I would like to add (and it's really just a personal observation) is that seeing great "feel" players such as Porcaro and Gadd, one thing these guys have in common I noticed is that they like to listen to the tune BEFORE they sit at the drum kit. When you think of it, it's a great idea, not only for learning the tune but to listen a bit to the artist singing it. That way you can figure out how HE/SHE positions himself relative to the song. You will already notice if the artist rushes a bit his singing or if he/she is laid back, etc... That will give you a perspective on how you will play the song.

Hmm--kind of contradicted yourself there...

If there's no difference about where you place the beat, I guess the whole discussion regarding where you put the "skip" beat in jazz (closer to the triplet or sixteenth, and what it does to the drive of the tune) is completely bogus as well!

That means there is NO reason left for having people drum--let's leave it up to machines! They're more precise, and we just debunked the whole scandalous theory of humans being able to add "feel" to the music. I'm going to go update my resume. I'd better start looking for a new job...

[VedranS]

Thanks a lot to everyone that's replied to my question, it all helps a lot.

Mr Petrillo, if you read this, I appreciate your insight, and can definitely understand that there is a huge amount of nuance and detail involved in how a musician plays around the time. I can see that having a good "feel" comes from experience and involves differences in playing that can be hard to articulate and impractical to "practice for" without just playing music with people and developing those aspects in context. I didn't mean to reduce the nuances of feel when it comes to playing around the beat, but I still felt it was worthwhile to see how others involve this idea in their music.

Caddy, Diablo, Jeff, Hungrypo, I appreciate you guys helping me understand this whole deal. Jeff's visualization and Caddy, Diablo and Hungry's thoughts on the hows and whys of the ahead/behind concept have helped me tremendously in knowing what to look or listen for in the future.

I got a cheap mike and audacity recently, and have been recording myself. While I have decent time, i can definitely hear more issues listening back than i can when playing, and hope to focus on just time stuff for now and see if i can't get my "feel" a lot better...anyway it's made me think of some of these things, so thanks for the help.

[Ian Ballard]

I remember reading a MD article from the 80's with John "J.R." Robinson, where he explains the "behind vs. ahead" idea. He keeps his bass drum exactly on, but only changes the snare slightly depending on what the music needs. That guy truly is a master in the studio.

I generally am tight down the middle. I don't try to "Bonhamize" my beat behind or "Aronoff-ize" my beat ahead either. I tend to be as "on" as possible and people are generally happy with me. There have been times when a band tended to be one or the other and I had to accommodate.

I think it's best to focus on being "ON" time, before worrying about being able to accurately control being "slightly off". If you want to do this, you have to be consistent and that backbeat has to be that much off every time... or it sounds like crap.

[Chris Oyens]

Hmm--kind of contradicted yourself there...

No I didn't. One statement was what Jeff Porcaro told me and the second was an observation I made watching and listening to some of my favorite "pocket" players. They are two sides of a same coin for all of us to consider, not contradiction.

[larryace]

This topic is a bugger. To me, playing behind the beat = laying back, playing ahead of the beat = driving the band. Playing right on the beat, I probably do that the most (at least that's the plan ha ha).

[caddywumpus]

Another related question...has anyone tried to play WITHOUT feeling? Playing right on the beat with absolutely no feel, like a machine? I've had to do it a few times while subbing for an electronica band, and it's just as hard as learning to play with feel in the first place. I had to shed pretty hard on that one!

[Ian Ballard]

Another related question...has anyone tried to play WITHOUT feeling? Playing right on the beat with absolutely no feel, like a machine? I've had to do it a few times while subbing for an electronica band, and it's just as hard as learning to play with feel in the first place. I had to shed pretty hard on that one!

"Feel" does not necessarily equate to playing "off" the beat or "ahead/behind" the beat. "Feel" is an intangible that has to do more with consistency and the ability to meld well with bass players and other musicians than it does playing "off" the beat. You can't even attempt to play anywhere around the beat, until you can play ON the beat and be able to keep constantly in tempo.

It's quite hard to pin down exactly what "feeling" or "feel" really is. But we know it when we hear it. So I'm not saying you are wrong, but some drummers (Dave Grohl is one example) can have a good feel, in my opinion, and stay right on top of the beat,

[larryace]

Feel, great subject. To dissect it I think it has everything to do with creating a noticeable pulse. For example, in 4/4 time if you are playing 8th notes on the hi hat, 1/4 notes on the kick, and 1/2 notes on the snare, to give it pulse, I would subtly accent the 1,2,3,4 on the hi hat and play the "ands" on the hi hat noticeably softer, I'd accent the backbeat on the snare in relation to the kick, and keep the kick at one dynamic volume, not too overpowering. Of course this has to be played at the proper tempo, with beautiful meter, and at the proper overall volume in relation to the rest of the band. And that's a simple 4 on the floor beat.
Hopefully it's not something you consciously have to think about.

[caddywumpus]

"Feel" does not necessarily equate to playing "off" the beat or "ahead/behind" the beat. "Feel" is an intangible that has to do more with consistency and the ability to meld well with bass players and other musicians than it does playing "off" the beat. You can't even attempt to play anywhere around the beat, until you can play ON the beat and be able to keep constantly in tempo.

It's quite hard to pin down exactly what "feeling" or "feel" really is. But we know it when we hear it. So I'm not saying you are wrong, but some drummers (Dave Grohl is one example) can have a good feel, in my opinion, and stay right on top of the beat,

Bingo! You can play right on the beat and have a GREAT feel, or you can have no feel at all...it's so weird. It's this intangible thing that you have to be able to hear/feel to replicate. Those that don't know what it is don't have it and can't have it explained to them, and those who know what it is know that it is the most important part about drumming/music/playing with others. When it suddenly "clicks", there's no going back.

[michelle m]

Yeah, but look at Bonham--notorious for "behind," and was loaded with feel; which I consider to be an entirely separate issue. I know lots of guys who are always on timing-wise and even playing the right part, and still have very little feel--sort of sounds like listening to a drum machine.

I would call the feel more synonymous with "the groove." I've also known guys who had such feel I didn't care if the 1 and 3 were just a hair slow IF you felt you had to lock it in. If I knew where he was going, and exactly when he'd be back, why would it matter? No, I'm not referring to "where the hell did the drummer go?" severe timing/lack of part knowledge things, just very minute bits. Like a fraction of a second late...And even then, faking a part from nothing is a great skill but a completely lost art. I've even seen guys who are almost always behind the beat, but they play with more feel than when they know the part well. So I like to get them on hard stuff where they have to think, and so help me, count. :)

As for dead-on timing, you got Steve Smith, the "perfesser," Copeland? All of whom are loaded with feel.

[davidr]

This for me is an example of the snare being behind the beat. Take it away steve gadd... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqO6G_QL6k&feature=related

[VedranS]

This for me is an example of the snare being behind the beat. Take it away steve gadd... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaqO6G_QL6k&feature=related

Thanks, I can definitely hear it there, that example was extremely helpful.

[Toza]

when you are playing any rhythm, and your snare and hh come together. try to play them as FLAM so your snare is little bit behind or maybe ahed ;) this makes cool, funky feel

[mrchattr]

I never understood why people said that there are certain drummers that play ahead or behind the beat the whole time. That's simply not true, in all but a few examples. A good drummer, certainly the guys that are getting discussed in here, can play on, ahead, or behind the beat, with no problem. I saw Kenny Aronoff play with Lynyrd Skynyrd. Here's a guy who has the reputation of playing ahead of the beat, and on some songs, he really did. But on the songs that called for it (Tuesday's Gone comes to mind), he played SO far behind the beat, it was nuts. I mean, he was right at the border of "behind the beat" and "dragging." Steve Smith was mentioned as a guy who plays right on the beat. If you listen to his stuff with the remaining members of Buddy's Band, especially the more recent releases, you can hear him playing ahead of the beat.

Vic Wooten and I had a discussion about this topic once, and he taught me to look at it from a mathematical perspective. We all talk about "the beat," but because of subdivisions (8th notes, 16th notes, etc), we actually know that there is a lot of space between each beat that is still "part of that beat" (as in, before you get to the next beat, so with 16th notes, you have 1, e, &, a, all of which are parts of the 1st beat. Even though most musicians never move into areas past 32nd or 64th notes, you can certainly keep subdividing. 128th notes, 256th notes, 512th notes, etc. Playing ahead of the beat means playing just one or two of those divisions (let's say 512th notes, although really, it's not like anyone is subdividing to that extreme) ahead of the actual beat. Playing on the beat means you play right on the beat, and playing behind the beat means you play just one or two of the 512th notes behind the beat.

Realistically, you can't subdivide like this, but visualizing it this was has really helped me, and I now have no problem switching between all three, although I tend to play ahead of the beat when I don't think about it.

[Ian Ballard]

Yeah, I generally play a 32,768th note either before or after "the beat", depending on the music> :p

[Chris Oyens]

Yeah, I generally play a 32,768th note either before or after "the beat", depending on the music> :p

LOL!!! To think that the topic here is to try and clear up some confusion on this matter! :-))

But I think you nailed it when you mentioned that this whole process is "intangible". I personally couldn't agree with you more. My advice is to play with a metronome and play dead on the beat (having good time is having good time) and to also devote time in daily practice playing along note for note with players that are really accomplished in playing laid back and with a slight rushy feeling. Stu Copeland is great for getting a glimpse of ahead of the beat because his grooves isually employed the 4 on the floor thing. And I find that good reggae drummers are wonderful to play on the behind the beat stuff. If you can play along with a simple rock groove to the Bob Marley records and make it feel nice, you really get an insight into laid back playing!

It's also a good idea to record yourself often, especially to hear if your fills are in harmony with your grooves. THAT'S how drum machines became the fashion in the 80s and 90s. People didn't mind the grooves the drummers played but were fed up with the way drummers always rushed their fills!!

[mrchattr]

It's also a good idea to record yourself often, especially to hear if your fills are in harmony with your grooves. THAT'S how drum machines became the fashion in the 80s and 90s. People didn't mind the grooves the drummers played but were fed up with the way drummers always rushed their fills!!

What? Where did you get this idea? Drum machines became the fashion because you can buy one for the price of having a drummer in the studio for 1 hour, and use it for every recording that you ever make. It has nothing to do with drummers rushing their fills.

[Chris Oyens]

What? Where did you get this idea? Drum machines became the fashion because you can buy one for the price of having a drummer in the studio for 1 hour, and use it for every recording that you ever make. It has nothing to do with drummers rushing their fills.

Oh yes it did. You cannot state JUST one reason for that particular fashion. It's like saying that consumers only download illegal music from the Internet because they don't want to pay. The recording industry has some responsibility in this and so did drummers back then. I know because I heard it from producers then.

[mattsmith]

Oh yes it did. You cannot state JUST one reason for that particular fashion. It's like saying that consumers only download illegal music from the Internet because they don't want to pay. The recording industry has some responsibility in this and so did drummers back then. I know because I heard it from producers then.

According to my old man, who back in the 80s was doing the largest share of the horn recruitment and conducting for the bigger studios in the Southeast, drum machines arrived at most of the big southern studios the same day synclaviers arrived to take the horn gigs. He remembers specifically the famous studio owner/producer Arthur Smith /Dueling Banjos etc/ goofing around with a drum machine while joking he didn't have to use that blasted fill in the blank drummer every time he had a contract for a 10 second radio/TV jingle. And of course they said it was the drummer's fault. That's how the studio owners justified what they were doing to the old school contractors who still insisted that a live player was better than a machine.

Then supposedly, everybody got on board when the live player cost was eliminated. In the short term, contractors saw they could then get 2 jingles for the price they used to pay for one. This was the case even though studios actually incrementally raised their prices for what they claimed was overhead for the new equipment. However, from about 1985-1995 studio costs that had essentially remained stable for several years prior, routinely increased as everyone switched from analog to digital. By the time most of the big studios had totally switched over, studio contractor costs were exactly what they had been when they used live musicians, except now the only thing you were buying was a machine.

It was 100% about money at the expense of the live musician.

[larryace]

Here's a great example of playing behind the beat. As great as Levon is, I think he's playing too far behind and I think it drags a little. Your thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwd1LsJyhis

[Boomka]

Feels fine from where I'm sitting.

[caddywumpus]

Here's a great example of playing behind the beat. As great as Levon is, I think he's playing too far behind and I think it drags a little. Your thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwd1LsJyhis

Did you notice that the guitar players keep looking back at the drummer?

[larryace]

Yes Caddy I do. I take that as they are wondering why he's dragging it. What's your take?

[MaidenFanSte]

Yes Caddy I do. I take that as they are wondering why he's dragging it. What's your take?

I agree
I'd say he's a tad too far behind. When something actually feels like it's dragging then I think there's something wrong!
Then again...it's all in in the ears of the listener.

[larryace]

Yes, playing behind the beat and dragging the beat...2 different things.

[Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan]

Yes Caddy I do. I take that as they are wondering why he's dragging it. What's your take?

All due respect, you guys have no idea what you are talking about. That performance is AWESOME, it swings its BUTT off. It is perfectly in style. Dragging or no dragging. Definitely behind the beat!
Casper

[larryace]

All due respect, you guys have no idea what you are talking about. That performance is AWESOME, it swings its BUTT off. It is perfectly in style. Dragging or no dragging. Definitely behind the beat!
Casper

Let's vote then. I say it drags, Mr. Paludan say it's fine. Anybody care to participate?

[PQleyR]

That's the blues, the entire band drags! I thought that was the point!

[caddywumpus]

That's the blues, the entire band drags! I thought that was the point!

Not THAT badly! Blues is supposed to drag, true, but the band should at least still play together!

Yes, LarryAce, my point WAS that they were looking at him like, "What the...?!?!?!" I think it's pretty funny, yet pretty sad at the same time. I just hope that he was so far behind due to a delay in the monitor send, and that that's not how he actually plays.

[larryace]

I actually think Levon didn't want Muddy to think he wasn't playing in an authentic fashion. I think he was thinking too hard about it instead of letting the flow happen. Levon has a beautiful sense of tempo and meter, but on this song, I really think he was thinking too hard about it. This is totally my own opinion.

[chefmoonwalker]

I actually think Levon didn't want Muddy to think he wasn't playing in an authentic fashion. I think he was thinking too hard about it instead of letting the flow happen. Levon has a beautiful sense of tempo and meter, but on this song, I really think he was thinking too hard about it. This is totally my own opinion.

EXACTLY!!!!! The second I start to think about it... POOF! My feel is gone, and I sound like crap.

I started really working on my groove/feel in college (after punk-rock and marching band chops developed in high school). I was messing around with the metronome quite a bit, and I tried playing flams behind or ahead relative to my ostinato (wherever that was).

The bottom line, at least for me, was that it's called "feel" for a reason!

Maybe there are players out there who can intellectually and mathematically figure out how far or ahead they want to be from the other musicians, or from their other limbs, but for me it's all about feeling. Try different "feels" (not necessarily different beats or stickings) out and see what works. It it makes the music feel better... do it!