Future Education questions

[h3r3tic]

So we all know that the evolution of drumming has changed a lot. In how we grip sticks, how we configure our drumset with the latest technology, how we hit the drums, how express ousrselves with the technique that feels best, etc.

So my question is that one of the very things that hasn't change in drumming is that amost peopple still cross their hands. My question is knowing that open-handed playing can help a lot (at least in my opinion) and even more drummers are getting into this style of playing including Dom Famularo, Gene Hoglan, Mangini, Heikki Malmberg, Claus Hessler, etc. Should we educate our future drummers with this kind of playing?

Thanks guys! ;)

[MattRitter]

So we all know that the evolution of drumming has changed a lot. In how we grip sticks, how we configure our drumset with the latest technology, how we hit the drums, how express ousrselves with the technique that feels best, etc.

So my question is that one of the very things that hasn't change in drumming is that amost peopple still cross their hands. My question is knowing that open-handed playing can help a lot (at least in my opinion) and even more drummers are getting into this style of playing including Dom Famularo, Gene Hoglan, Mangini, Heikki Malmberg, Claus Hessler, etc. Should we educate our future drummers with this kind of playing?

Thanks guys! ;)

In my opinion, absolutely YES!

You said "most people still cross their arms." Of course, they do- evolution on this instrument is much slower than people realize. Our first generation of drumset players came from the marching school, so they played with traditional grip. That grip remained the prevalent way of holding the sticks for several decades after the drumset was invented! Incredible, but true. The drumset was officially invented in 1909, when the bass drum pedal was patented. It wasn't until the mid 1960's that Ringo started inspiring the masses to play matched grip! Then, it STILL took a long while for matched grip to become the norm. When I began taking drum lessons in 1989, I was taught to play traditional grip! That's 80 years after the drumset was invented! Now...finally...in 2009, most people play with (and teach) matched grip, including many jazz musicians like Jack DeJohnette, Ari Hoenig, and Bill Stewart. It sure was a long journey to get here!

So, it can take decades for drumming technique norms to change. Open-handed playing is becoming commonplace much faster than you're giving it credit for. Again, when I began lessons 20 years ago, open-handed playing was practically unheard of. There were a few notable people doing it, like Billy Cobham and Simon Phillips, but those guys were just considered to be marvels that were the exception. Now, there are plenty of open-handed players right here on this forum! Open-handed drumming has grown exponentially in the past 10 years thanks to the internet. Give it another 20 years, and you might be very surprised to see how prevalent it is. Give it 80 to 100 years (like we did with the traditional grip/matched grip issue), and it will probably be strange for anyone to play with crossed arms. I'm not a fortune teller, but that is my prediction.

[Deltadrummer]

I think we are really at a time where for the first time, players are looking at drum technique on a mass level. The hand techniques that Gene Krupa, Papa Jo, Buddy, Philly Jo Jones, Joe Morello, and the like were privy too, are now commonplace for $39.95 and a DVD player. Heck, just go to the Drummerworld main page, and you can become an expert. Total cost, $0.00.

When teaching, I think you have to be practical about dominant hand playing. And what works for one student, on any matter, cannot be applied across the board, thus the failurre of standardized education.

It has long been a practice to work on independence with both the left and right hand playing the ride pattern. I would suggest that drummers work in that manner and there is a long tradition to do so going back to Jim Chapin's first book and of course the Gary Chester books. I am working the Claus' book on OHP now and also with Steve Fidyk's book on jazz independnce, which has ride ostnatos with either hand lead. So it's not really the future of drumming. It is the history of drumming, and it is where drumming is at now in a big way.

[MattRitter]

I think we are really at a time where for the first time, players are looking at drum technique on a mass level. The hand techniques that Gene Krupa, Papa Jo, Buddy, Philly Jo Jones, Joe Morello, and the like were privy too, are now commonplace for $39.95 and a DVD player. Heck, just go to the Drummerworld main page, and you can become an expert. Total cost, $0.00.

When teaching, I think you have to be practical about dominant hand playing. And what works for one student, on any matter, cannot be applied across the board, thus the failurre of standardized education.

It has long been a practice to work on independence with both the left and right hand playing the ride pattern. I would suggest that drummers work in that manner and there is a long tradition to do so going back to Jim Chapin's first book and of course the Gary Chester books. I am working the Claus' book on OHP now and also with Steve Fidyk's book on jazz independnce, which has ride ostnatos with either hand lead. So it's not really the future of drumming. It is the history of drumming, and it is where drumming is at now in a big way.

I love your closing line there, Ken. Nice!

As for the practicality of teaching dominant hand playing...

As I have said countless times in this forum, all a teacher has to do is teach their students to lead with BOTH hands. When I say this, people generally react like I'm a revolutionary or an anarchist (depending on whether or not they happen to agree with me). What's funny is- I'm neither! As you pointed out, this idea has been out there since Chapin published his book in the 1940's. I guess people just skip over that part of the book.

Anyway, I can almost guarantee you this: If you teach your students to lead with both hands from day one, and sincerely give equal emphasis to each hand, you will find that almost none of your students will choose to cross their arms when playing. Try it as an experiment, and see if I'm correct. For the experiment to work, however, you must be 100% sincere in giving equal time and emphasis to each hand. I have seen this again, and again, and again.

I tell my students on the first day that we will practice leading with each hand equally, but in actual performance, they can play however they want. Lately, I've been studying Tae Kwon Do, so I use martial arts as an example. We practice all kicks and punches equally with both hands and feet. But if you're ever attacked on the street, you use whatever comes naturally in defending yourself.

Taking this approach with countless drum students over the years, I have only had about 3 that still opted to cross their arms when performing. Those students all had one thing in common- they had already played drums with crossed arms for many years before meeting me. Again, try my suggestion as an experiment. There is absolutely nothing to lose. The worst case scenario is you end up with a few students who feel a little stronger in their "weak" hand than your other students.

[Deltadrummer]

My experience has just been then opposite, Matt. and this is where you and I have disagreed in the past. I just don't believe that in most cases OHP is a beginning technique. It is an intermediate technique. And I think it is imperative to interemediate and advanced study.

I have found that beginners progress faster with a dominant hand lead and though I generally do not encourage them to switch to dominant hand lead, most of my beginning students do switch as some point. At which I say, "do that if you feel are comfortable, that's okay. But I'm going to have you go through the book again with a left hand lead." That's what I did back in ancient history not only because Jim's book suggested it, but because after I finished all my books, I didn't know what to do.

I think there does need to come a point very early on in instruction where the student needs to realize that the weaker hand and foot need to step up to the plate. Now the the proliferation of doube bass drumming that is less of an issue because kids esp. are using both feet from day one. And there are so many more materials out there to deal with strenghtening the weaker side.

[MattRitter]

My experience has just been then opposite, Matt. and this is where you and I have disagreed in the past. I just don't believe that in most cases OHP is a beginning technique.

With all due respect, Ken, this is why you have not had success with teaching open-handed playing. As I mentioned in my previous post, it needs to be taught from the first day.

[Deltadrummer]

To be perfectly honest, Matt. I am not training people to play on Grammy awarded albums. If my students get outstanding on their NYSSMA, and do really well at the HS jazz concert, I am more than happy. And 98% of the time, I can deliver with that, unless the kid goes to the Bahamas the week before NYSSMA and comes back three days before the event still not able to play the piece.

As you can see, I have a hard time getting some students to count never mind playing through Stone. Will both of those things greatly enhance their playing? Yes. Will playing OHP greatly enhance their playing? Yes. Can you ge them to do it? That's another story. :)

[MattRitter]

Will playing OHP greatly enhance their playing? Yes. Can you ge them to do it? That's another story. :)

Well, Ken, we may just have to agree to disagree. The whole point I've been trying to make is that you CAN get them to do it...very easily, in fact. The teacher is the one who sets the curriculum, not the beginner student. On my first day with a student, I explain to them that anything we practice with the right hand, we will also practice with the left hand...anything we practice with the left hand, we will also practice with the right hand. I have never once had a beginner student that thought this statement was unreasonable. They usually say something like "Of course" or "That makes sense."

The first rhythm they learn is simply playing 8th notes with one hand while counting aloud. As promised, we do it with the left hand, and we also do it with the right. Then, we add a snare hit on 2 and 4, using whichever hand is not playing the 8th note ostinato. Then, eventually we add some bass drum. And so on and so on. Basically, we build their ability to play simple rock grooves, adding one element at a time. At no point does it ever occur to a beginner that they should abandon the habit of practicing everything both ways. Honestly, I believe that this occurs in your lessons because you present it as "optional" or "extra credit" or something. In other words, you are not completely committed to the idea heart and soul, so that is being reflected back to you by your students.

In any case, it sounds like you know what you want to achieve with your students, and it sounds like you are successfully achieving it. The drum world would be pretty boring if we all taught with the same approach.

Continued luck to you!

[Deltadrummer]

It matters how long the lesson is. In an hour I could accompish that. But in a half hour, when I am working with them on rudiments and hand technique for 15 minutes, it's not practical.

[Jeff Almeyda]

My concern with teaching beginners how to lead with both hands is more of a musical one than a drumming one. As a beginner, one can easily be overwhelmed just trying to get anything to sound good. Having a beginner essentially double his "groove workload" from the outset might distract him from the goal which is to groove.

Yes, the goal is to groove. That is the ONLY goal. (Thank you Bob Moses). The goal is not to be "creative" or "contemporary" or anything else. The goal is certainly not to explore modern drumming techniques. That is an interesting sidebar, at best.

A beginner can most easily reach this goal by "cutting narrow and deep". In other words, staying with a limited set of techniques and developing them to a respectable level before adding new ones. Otherwise the tendency is to rush through the material because "there is so much to practice!" (Thank you Kenny Werner)

[Avendesoran]

MattRitter...

I'm with you 100%!!!

I am right handed and I've been drumming for about 5 years, I am self taught and for the first 4 years it was only casual playing in a band with friends. Over the last year, after my band broke up, I've taken drumming a lot more seriously and am now working on my technique.

Open Handed Playing

When I decided to learn how to play drums I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I hopped on mxtabs.net downloaded tabs for Metallica's Orion and learned the basic rock beat in the intro. I didn't even know what a hi-hat was but I googled for information on how you set up a drum set and this is what I saw: Hats go on the left, Snare to the right, Bass drum at the right foot and toms on top. Crossing my arm over the snare to play the hi-hat never even crossed my mind for second!
After I learned the rock beat I took it to the drum kit at my HS with my friend who was learning bass. I started playing and he said: "what the hell are you doing?! You don't play like that? you have to cross your arms so it looks cooler!". I tried crossing my arms and I looked at him like he was crazy. Was he nuts? Why constrict your freedom of motion just to look cooler.
So I say it to you all, to the kid who knows nothing about drumming, open handed is the only logical choice.

A couple other things about open handed playing.

I'm right handed and my left hand was naturally much weaker and less dextrous than my right. Becuase of my lack of knowledge on drumming and the nature of the way the drums are set up for a right handed player, my left hand actually had little responsibilty:
playing on the hi hat
playing on the ride
used during fills

Another disadvantage about open handed playing: If you don't have an extra floor tom to place to the left of your snare behind your hats, you cannot play floor tom patterns w/o right hand lead experience.

Only now am I trying to correct all of this.
I have really nice kit on order and I currently have an old DT X-press II E-kit my set up is going to be like this...

The main kit will be the same except that my ride will be just over my hats. However I'm going to have my E-kit opened up to "hug" my acoustic kit from the left side. This will give my left hand a lot more things to do. I will have an e-tom for tom lead patterns an e-cowbell, congas etc... whatever sounds my e-kit brain is programed with.

Back to the topic of TEACHING open handed technique or rather left and right lead patterns.

When you play open handed you still lead fills with your right hand so that you can move to the next tom easier. One problem happens.
Say you want to insert a quick simple 16th note fill on the snare on the 4 of a simple rock beat.
Your right hand is ready to hit the snare at any time in open handed playing and because you will be use to starting fills/quick rolls with your right hand, when you get to the 4, when you start the snare patern you will use R L R L. Now you've placed the down beat for the next bar into the right hand. There are three solutions.
1) Play a crash on the 1 to give your left hand time to move back to the hats
2) Move into a right-hand lead pattern
3) Learn to lead fills with your left hand

After playing open handed for so long now I've realized that I must learn to play leads with BOTH hands.

some of you may think that this is a disadvantage but I disagree. Learning to lead with both hands regardless of which way you play will open up so many different ways to express yourself on the kit. Playing open handed demands both hand leads which is great because the EASIEST time to learn this is at the very begining.

I have met drummers who have played cross handed for years and years and they absolutely cannot coordinate a smooth rock beat open handed. If you only wait till you're a seasoned pro to learn left hand leads you will only be making it 10x more work in the long run. So kudos to you MattRitter, your students will be of the most versatile drummers.

Remember

Hobbiests practice what they're already know
Proffessionals practice what they don't know
And always sharpen the saw

PS, The only thing I hate is that my playing style is becoming less and less unique every day.

[Unevil]

All drum evolution theories aside, most people play crossed because for MOST people, the right hand can play faster than the left, and as a generalization, the hi-hat is played more often than the snare (constant 8s on hi-hat is standard...snare usually plays a good 1-3 beats in the general groove as opposed to the hi-hat's 8. Personally, I have a faster left hand (something I am trying to fix XD) but when I started playing drum set, my dad (my teacher) told me that I should play crossed as opposed to open (I am right handed, but strangely a left-handed drummer...he probably assumed that since I was right handed, I would play faster crossed) Well, after days of grueling training I learned to play crossed, and have never switched back to open--crossed is working great for me, and open would be sort of hard to re-learn (although I can still play open, I can't as good as I can crossed)

I also believe that crossed playing is great practice for a person to develop their 5th gear, as the right hand usually starts a fill, and in order to get to a tom, the hand has to travel further than if it were from the snare.

Personally I think your drum-technique (open/cross) is just as variable as bass technique (heel down/heel up/heel toe) in that whatever feels more comfortable for you should be done. If you are right handed, cross would be better most likely, and same goes for opposite. However, some grooves can be played easier open than crossed. For this reason I would assume that it would be great for drummers to learn either technique, as they can both be beneficial to a drummer in specific circumstances.

[Deltadrummer]

My concern with teaching beginners how to lead with both hands is more of a musical one than a drumming one. As a beginner, one can easily be overwhelmed just trying to get anything to sound good. Having a beginner essentially double his "groove workload" from the outset might distract him from the goal which is to groove.

Yes, the goal is to groove. That is the ONLY goal. (Thank you Bob Moses). The goal is not to be "creative" or "contemporary" or anything else. The goal is certainly not to explore modern drumming techniques. That is an interesting sidebar, at best.

A beginner can most easily reach this goal by "cutting narrow and deep". In other words, staying with a limited set of techniques and developing them to a respectable level before adding new ones. Otherwise the tendency is to rush through the material because "there is so much to practice!" (Thank you Kenny Werner)

I didn't know that was Bob Moses. :)

I think that the reaity is that playing open-handed is not going to get you the gig. No one really cares. They care if you are laying down a good groove, period. Theorietically, I am with Matt 100%. Of course that makes sesne. And historically, drummers always played open handed. RH on ride cymbal, LH around set. So this is nothing knew. But practically, like you said esp for a beginner, it is not really a big deal. If playing cross-handed gets the idea across, then that is what the teacher should be looking for.

Does the beginner drummer set the lesson goal, yes. What are his or her needs and goals with drumming. What are his or her strengths and challenges with learning. What are the constraints of lesson and practice time? These are more important qustions for me as a teacher, rather than, "Can you play that with a left hand lead now?"

I wanted to add that if you look historically at left hand lead instruction, Chapin's goal was to gain independence, with the goal of weaker hand lead being stated, but not necessarily why or even the main reason why people would practice his book with the weaker hand lead. Gary Chester wanted to free up the drummer conceptually and break out of the same old patterns to craete new grooves and new feels. Dom Famularo's approach is much more theoretical. He wants to bring the weaker hand into a leadership position to strengthen the hand and not cross because crossing is bad technique. There are different focuse to why one would use this technique, and it has a lot of value even if your goal is not to lead with your weaker hand all the time.

[MattRitter]

MattRitter...

I'm with you 100%!!!

I am right handed and I've been drumming for about 5 years, I am self taught and for the first 4 years it was only casual playing in a band with friends. Over the last year, after my band broke up, I've taken drumming a lot more seriously and am now working on my technique.

Open Handed Playing

When I decided to learn how to play drums I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. I hopped on mxtabs.net downloaded tabs for Metallica's Orion and learned the basic rock beat in the intro. I didn't even know what a hi-hat was but I googled for information on how you set up a drum set and this is what I saw: Hats go on the left, Snare to the right, Bass drum at the right foot and toms on top. Crossing my arm over the snare to play the hi-hat never even crossed my mind for second!
After I learned the rock beat I took it to the drum kit at my HS with my friend who was learning bass. I started playing and he said: "what the hell are you doing?! You don't play like that? you have to cross your arms so it looks cooler!". I tried crossing my arms and I looked at him like he was crazy. Was he nuts? Why constrict your freedom of motion just to look cooler.
So I say it to you all, to the kid who knows nothing about drumming, open handed is the only logical choice.

A couple other things about open handed playing.

I'm right handed and my left hand was naturally much weaker and less dextrous than my right. Becuase of my lack of knowledge on drumming and the nature of the way the drums are set up for a right handed player, my left hand actually had little responsibilty:
playing on the hi hat
playing on the ride
used during fills

Another disadvantage about open handed playing: If you don't have an extra floor tom to place to the left of your snare behind your hats, you cannot play floor tom patterns w/o right hand lead experience.

Only now am I trying to correct all of this.
I have really nice kit on order and I currently have an old DT X-press II E-kit my set up is going to be like this...

The main kit will be the same except that my ride will be just over my hats. However I'm going to have my E-kit opened up to "hug" my acoustic kit from the left side. This will give my left hand a lot more things to do. I will have an e-tom for tom lead patterns an e-cowbell, congas etc... whatever sounds my e-kit brain is programed with.

Back to the topic of TEACHING open handed technique or rather left and right lead patterns.

When you play open handed you still lead fills with your right hand so that you can move to the next tom easier. One problem happens.
Say you want to insert a quick simple 16th note fill on the snare on the 4 of a simple rock beat.
Your right hand is ready to hit the snare at any time in open handed playing and because you will be use to starting fills/quick rolls with your right hand, when you get to the 4, when you start the snare patern you will use R L R L. Now you've placed the down beat for the next bar into the right hand. There are three solutions.
1) Play a crash on the 1 to give your left hand time to move back to the hats
2) Move into a right-hand lead pattern
3) Learn to lead fills with your left hand

After playing open handed for so long now I've realized that I must learn to play leads with BOTH hands.

some of you may think that this is a disadvantage but I disagree. Learning to lead with both hands regardless of which way you play will open up so many different ways to express yourself on the kit. Playing open handed demands both hand leads which is great because the EASIEST time to learn this is at the very begining.

I have met drummers who have played cross handed for years and years and they absolutely cannot coordinate a smooth rock beat open handed. If you only wait till you're a seasoned pro to learn left hand leads you will only be making it 10x more work in the long run. So kudos to you MattRitter, your students will be of the most versatile drummers.

Remember

Hobbiests practice what they're already know
Proffessionals practice what they don't know
And always sharpen the saw

PS, The only thing I hate is that my playing style is becoming less and less unique every day.

Hey, Avendesoran

Thanks for the support! And thanks for sharing your terrific story. It sounds like you and I have discovered some similar things along the way. Believe it or not, an 8 year old student of mine was the one who "taught" me to lead with both hands. He came into lessons after playing around on a toy drumset at home. Just like you, he naturally assumed that the hi-hat should be played with the left hand. But the ride was on the right, so he assumed that the ride should be played with the right hand! He had been playing in this ambidextrous fashion, learning all of his favorite songs. On his first lesson, he absolutely blew me away with this! It looked so natural, and made so much sense.

I immediately decided that I would learn to play this way myself. I had already been playing with crossed arms for 15 years, but I committed myself 100% to making the switch...as an experiment. On that day, I stopped playing with crossed arms, and have never looked back. Within a few months, it was feeling so good that I felt a responsibility to teach all of my students this approach. Now, 5 years later, I could never imagine playing or teaching any other way! And that 8 year old student...he is still taking lessons. He's about to turn 13 now, and he is an absolutely incredible drummer.

So, that's my story!

The quote you wrote at the end of your post reminded me of another great one:

"The amateur practices until he gets it right.
The professional practices until he can't get it wrong!"
(I wish I knew who said that)

Continued luck with your drumming, Avendesoran!

[Deltadrummer]

I have to ask you, Matt, What about the kid who has trouble playing left hand lead? 8 year olds will play that way, and I don't change them unless they start to show a problem with the WHL, weaker hand lead. I have one student who is nine now and still plays that way; he feels comfortable with LHL. My expereience is that this is not the rule but the exception. I know a drummer who bats righty and throws lefty. I can't do that. What if the kid doesn't feel comfortable with WHL, and it is an obstacle to his progress? What if a left handed player doesn't feel comfortable playing on a right kit? Should I say "well get used to it, you're going to have to play on it sooner or later." I asked Frank Bellucci about this. he plays lefty on a left hand kit with trad grip. He says, that's what is comforable to him even though he learned matched on a right handed kit. My attitude has been see what works for the student and develop the student's strengths as a basis, then work on the weaknesses. and I don't think it is good to hold the exception up as the rule. It is like saying kid, "you're never going to make it as a drummer if you can't play with OHP."

[larryace]

This is a great thread. I play crossed but lately I've been seeing the advantages of open handed, and for certain things I'm incorporating it. I think it's part of the natural evolution of drumset players and I'd wager that in a hundred years, assuming the drumset doesn't change, I believe most players will play open handed, it's simply a more logical way to work a drumkit. Economy of motion and effort are always strived for by drummers, and an open handed approach makes for the most conservation of energy.

[MattRitter]

I have to ask you, Matt, What about the kid who has trouble playing left hand lead? 8 year olds will play that way, and I don't change them unless they start to show a problem with the WHL, weaker hand lead. I have one student who is nine now and still plays that way; he feels comfortable with LHL. My expereience is that this is not the rule but the exception. I know a drummer who bats righty and throws lefty. I can't do that. What if the kid doesn't feel comfortable with WHL, and it is an obstacle to his progress? What if a left handed player doesn't feel comfortable playing on a right kit? Should I say "well get used to it, you're going to have to play on it sooner or later." I asked Frank Bellucci about this. he plays lefty on a left hand kit with trad grip. He says, that's what is comforable to him even though he learned matched on a right handed kit. My attitude has been see what works for the student and develop the student's strengths as a basis, then work on the weaknesses. and I don't think it is good to hold the exception up as the rule. It is like saying kid, "you're never going to make it as a drummer if you can't play with OHP."

Ken, I never "hold the exception up as the rule." Please re-read my posts. I've already mentioned in countless threads over the past couple of years (including THIS thread) that I have never had a beginner student find it particularly difficult to lead with the "weak" hand. It is clear that you do not believe me when I say this...and that really is fine with me.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, all of my beginner students take to "weak hand lead" extremely naturally. Of course, they have to practice it just like everything else that I teach them. But no beginner student has ever found this to be more challenging than the other stuff we work on. The only time a student has had a noticeable problem with "weak hand lead" is when they had already been drumming for some years, leading only with the "dominant" hand. And even THEN, they can make a change if they commit themselves to it wholeheartedly like I did.

By the way, the one thing that some students do seem to resist or have difficulty with in my studio is reading. Leading rhythms with both hands never is a problem, but sometimes reading is a bit of a problem for people. They don't find it as fun as playing the set, and they sometimes find it challenging to really excel at it. Does this mean that I simply abandon reading? Heck no! Instead, I continually search for better and better ways to teach it.

Regarding your concept that you should teach an 8 year old to play in the way that "feels comfortable" to them...I honestly cannot wrap my brain around that idea. In my experience, almost nothing really "feels comfortable" to an 8 year old who is just starting out. That's why the instructor is there- to take the lead and gradually direct the student to a level of comfort with the mechanics of drumming. I do not invite a young child into my studio and start asking them which hand they want to use for the hi-hat. If I did that, their first response would probably be "what's a hi-hat?". Really, Ken, I'm baffled by this particular concept of yours. In my lessons, I am the instructor, and I gently guide each student through a curriculum that I have carefully thought out. I can't imagine it any other way.

Besides, almost anything we do often enough can "feel comfortable," even the worst of habits. I had a student who used to play with her right shoulder hunched all the way up to her ear. Not only was it perfectly "comfortable" to her, but she didn't even know she was doing it! She played like this for months, and for months I pointed it out to her and tried to get her to relax the shoulder. Eventually, we did get her shoulder into a healthier position.

In wrapping up, Ken, I will state again that the challenges you find in teaching open-handed playing stem from the fact that you yourself are conflicted about the idea. You are very conflicted about the notion of teaching this way, and many of your posts make this point obvious. Well...that internal conflict of yours subtly affects the way that you present open-handed playing to your students. And that, in turn, leads your students to abandon it or feel awkward about it.

In any case, I invite you to continue teaching in the way that you see fit. Your posts make it seem that you are mildly upset by the fact that I teach in the way that I do. With that in mind, I would like to assure you that my students are doing fine...much better than fine, actually. So, don't worry about us. All is going well over here. Let me continue teaching my way, and I will let you continue teaching your way. As I said before, it would be pretty boring if we all taught with the same approach.

Best of luck to you, Ken.

[John Galt]

Interesting thread with good commentary from all posters, so many thanks to all for the invaluable information contained throughout.
However, from the perspective of a). A complete beginner, b). A left handed plerson, (who incidentally delta drummer bats and golfs like a righthander, but throws left handed) and lastly c) a middle aged, mid life crisis male.........I am throughly confused.
My foot dominance is the thing giving me most grief realistically. My left foot does what its told, but the right follows the left, (which in the grand scheme of things is generally the right course of action!!!) I can play the hi hats and snare with either the left or right and generqally hammer out either a rock or jazz easy beat. Now as long as the hats are open, I dont care if they are left or right of me.
My tutor sets the hats on the right, and I start crossing my arms, when I come in they're to the left, I dont cross my arms. I'm comfortable either way.
So, with that in mind, how should I play??? I'm never going to be that good where I'm recording with a band or in front of an audience, other than my long suffering wife.
Play what feels comfortable I hear you all saying........but I dont know whats more comfortable, because either are acceptable, as long as the hats are open, or I have a remote hat stand. To me, the ride sounds that much better anyway!!!

[MattRitter]

Play what feels comfortable I hear you all saying........but I dont know whats more comfortable

This is exactly one of the points that I was making in my previous post. Depending on how they practice, beginners can become comfortable with almost anything, even if it's inefficient or flat-out dangerous. That's why I never just tell someone "play what feels comfortable." My students come to me for informed guidance, and I try my best to supply it. If you were my student, I would have you sit behind a standard drumset with hi-hat on left, bass drum and ride cymbal on right. I would not complicate matters by turning the set around or hooking up remote hi-hats! I would simply teach you to play on the standard drumset configuration that you will encounter whenever you walk into a music store or rehearsal studio. We would practice leading with each hand, and we would gradually work on your coordination to play various bass drum patterns against a typical rock hand pattern (8th notes on cymbal, snare on 2 and 4). I have had great success teaching this way with lefties, righties, and everyone in between. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. I hope it helps!

[jjmason777]

I have played crossed for over 33 years now. At this point, I am undecided as to weather or not I want to start adding that into the mix. BUT - why couldn't I just put a remote hi hat on the right? Problem solved.

[Deltadrummer]

My left foot does what its told, but the right follows the left, (which in the grand scheme of things is generally the right course of action!!!)

My tutor sets the hats on the right, and I start crossing my arms, when I come in they're to the left, I dont cross my arms. I'm comfortable either way.
So, with that in mind, how should I play??? I'm never going to be that good where I'm recording with a band or in front of an audience, other than my long suffering wife.
Play what feels comfortable I hear you all saying........but I dont know whats more comfortable, because either are acceptable, as long as the hats are open, or I have a remote hat stand. To me, the ride sounds that much better anyway!!!

Your posts is a good one. When you come to somebody as a beginner, your goal may be to learn some grooves and to learn how to interpret a song. OHP is not an issue for you; you just want to learn how to play basic drums. What you are talking about with your feet is the need for independence, emancipating the right foot from the left foot. That is one of the things we do as drummers when we practice.

I would agree with Matt, that if your hands do not cross, it is preferable. If you can play on a rightie kit with a left hand lead, LH on HH and Ride Cymbal now on left side, you could work that way. The thinking is that it frees up the kit so you can play grooves and get around the drums. Makes sense. Most pros recommend that lefties are taught that way because often drummers have to play on kits other than their own.

In my experience, it is difficult for lefties to learn on a rightie kit; it is an obstacle. The left hand does not naturally blend with the right foot. It is the way many people are programmed. There is another area where Matt and I disagree. And when it comes right down to it, I am going to throw away the theory and do what is best for the student.

Historically, drummers have been doing what we are talking about for decades. Chapin mentions it in his book, which was published in 1939. But adds that most people do not acheive full left hand lead. It has been the left handers for whom OHP seems to have been an option: Buddy Harman, Billy Cobham, Lenny White, or Will Kennedy. Now taking their lead, righties should be playing a left handed kit, right hand lead, HH on the right, with the left foot on the kick drum. Why not? It certainly makes more sense, or as much sense as leading with your weaker hand.

In my opinion, you should find the way that you are best programmed for playing, your strength, and stick with it until you find the need to do otherwise. All these guys mentioned like Dom and Simon Phillips probably started off with trad grip, and now they are playing OHP.When you look at guys like Mangini, El Negro or Claus Hessler, OHP is "a natural evolution in technique" as someone said.

Now as far as history goes, what will drum technology bring in fourty years? Will we still be playing acoustic instruments for example? Aydee asked that question a couple of weeks ago.

[John Galt]

Many thanks for both your responses and contribution gents.
Its interesting how both of you are essentially agreeing with each other.
My first tutor didnt even ask me if I was left or right handed, because to him, it made no difference. However, when I picked up a pen to write my name, he was agahst. He thought I wasn't exactly "getting it" because I was "anxious". Upon changing the kit around, all of a sudden, the world tilted about its axis! But after an eternity of perseverance on my part, it became comfortable. I am probably guessing that the amount of effort I put in was disproportionate to the reward, and that a younger student might not be so forgiving at apparent lack of progress.However, I will say, I only want to learn drums, I dont want to become a master, nor a Steve Gadd or a Gavin Harrison.
Open handed seems the more natural way, but I also like traditional grip and having the hihats on the left, puts my arm and wrist outside of the arc of the kit, which seems a tad unnatural. So, for me, I'm still a touch confused as to how best to approach things.
I didnt think that hitting a bunch of inanimate objects could be so confusing!

[MattRitter]

So, for me, I'm still a touch confused as to how best to approach things. I didnt think that hitting a bunch of inanimate objects could be so confusing!

Sounds like a classic case of "paralysis by analysis." Don't let something simple become overly complicated. Look at some pictures of drumsets, and you will quickly see what the norm is: hi-hat on left, bass drum and ride cymbal on right, snare in the middle, 2 or more toms. This is the standard configuration used by nearly every drummer in the world, regardless of whether they are right-handed or left-handed. Left-handed people make up about 10% of the population, but you certainly don't see 10% of drumsets arranged in reverse! So, in other words, even lefties typically play on the standard setup that I described. My advice is to start with this standard setup, and practice leading with both hands so that you won't need to play with crossed arms. As for grip, I would recommend that you use matched grip. Traditional grip was originally used for playing on a tilted marching drum. I don't feel that it has much practical value these days, and most people consider it to be harder to learn. Even Jim Chapin (who plays primarily traditional grip) recommends that new drummers in this day and age go with matched grip.

[John Galt]

thanks for the advice Matt.
If ever you find yourself down in the Australian end of town, be happy to spend my money with you.

[Deltadrummer]

Many thanks for both your responses and contribution gents.
Its interesting how both of you are essentially agreeing with each other.


That's because I don't disagree with Matt; but solely disagree with him on two points, those being that people are essentailly not left-handed nor right handed but these things are conditioned, and secondly that one needs to learn OHP from day one. One doesn't even need to learn it, nor to learn it to get a job. In theory it is great; but my experience tells me that is not the case that it is easy for kids to do all this extra work. That is my experience. If yours is different, god bless you.

When one analyzes these things one can see the truth of these things and the absurdity. Like the notion that people need to do this to get work or will in the future. Do you need this to keep a good groove for a well known artist? ask Zoro. Or like this one. Most of these guys that are using OHP are not using standard kits. They have hats on both sides. They have multiple toms not necessarily positioned in standard order. They have various accoutrements. If we are talking about the future of drumming, we are not talking about standard kits of taday. The standard kit twenty years ago is not the standard kit today. The standard kit for jazz is different then the standard kit for metal. The standard kit for bebop is different then the standard kit for fusion. The standard kits dodn't come with the HH on the left. We put it there. Or this one. If we are talking about doing things naturally, we are talking about what is natural for this player as opposed to that player. That is the reality of art and the reality of technique regardless of what anyone wants to think about it theoretiocally. It is a personal expression and a personal choice.
.

[Avendesoran]

righties should be playing a left handed kit, right hand lead, HH on the right, with the left foot on the kick drum. Why not? It certainly makes more sense, or as much sense as leading with your weaker hand.


In the sense that you get to open up your hands and free up your motion, yes it makes sense. But when you're right handed, switching to a left handed kit will create more problems than it solves. A right handed person even if you're doing left hand leads open handed still starts fills with the right hand. On a left hand kit this has to be reversed.

That being said though, I 've considered setting up lefty to actually work on this! learn to do right hand leads on the hi hat and strengthen up my rudiments with left hand leads! Also it would give my left foot a chance to have some dominance in my playing. When translated back to my regular kit, I believe this would help for complicated snycopated bass patterns.

All this talk has got me really ambitious and I love the ideas and I can't wait to get started learning.

I should be getting my kit mid-late april

[Deltadrummer]

It sounds absurd and it is absurd. But this is what drummers do. I had a left handed student last year, and I would set up the kit a half hour before the lesson and go through grooves on a lefty kit, leading with my left hand for the HH and for the fills. Left handed drummers who play rightie kits do this all the time.

A guy once told me that in order to strengthen his double bass playing he used his left foot for the bass drum on his grooves for six months. He didn't do any open HH work. If you play rock that may be the case. That is not a far cry from playing a lefty kit, with the right hand on the HH. It could be done. No less absurd and no less 'practical' then OHP on a rightie kit..

I shoudl ask that in today's metal that is double bass driven. why should anybody keep the HH on the left side?

[DrumEatDrum]

I think it's up to the individual kid. You can introduce both, and see how they do.

Some kids probably are going to be able to do both, some will do better open handed, some are not going to be able to do it at all.

Forcing a kid to play open handed if they are not comfortable doing it is about as cruel as when they forced left handed kids to write with their right hand. It's not for everyone.

[MattRitter]

That's because I don't disagree with Matt; but solely disagree with him on two points, those being that people are essentailly not left-handed nor right handed but these things are conditioned,

Hmmm...we actually never discussed the issue of whether left-handedness and right-handedness in general are conditioned. That would definitely be an interesting topic to discuss at some point, but so far we've only discussed the way that people play the drums. My personal experience with over 300 private drum students has shown me that people can easily acclimate to playing the hi-hat with either hand, depending on how they practice. In fact, I have had many left-handed students come in over the years playing with crossed arms on a standard drumset. So, these left-handed drummers were crossing their arms to play the hi-hat with their right hand simply because they saw other drummers doing it! They had no problem "playing righty." That's how they practiced, so that's what they felt comfortable doing (Of course, I encouraged them to play open-handed like I do with all of my students).

This is not the slightest bit unusual, by the way. As I pointed out in my previous post, nearly all left-handed drummers in the world play on a standard set (hi-hat on left, bass drum and ride on right). For this reason we do not even spot them as lefties. Same goes for piano, incidentally. No one orders a custom-built, reversed piano simply because they are left-handed. Left-handed pianists play the same piano as everyone else. And with very few exceptions, left-handed drummers play the same drum configuration as everyone else. This is simply a fact.

and secondly that one needs to learn OHP from day one.

Yes, I stated that students learn open-handed playing best when it is taught from day one. I did not say that all teachers must teach open-handed playing from day one. I said this is the most effective strategy if you want the student to learn open-handed playing. Your own statements have been further confirmation of this. You have mentioned repeatedly that you consider open-handed playing to be something for intermediate students. But then you talk about all of the difficulties you have when trying to teach it. Well, this is not a coincidence, Ken. You are having difficulty teaching open-handed playing for 2 reasons:

1) You don't think of it as a beginner technique, so therefore you introduce it to your students too late. It needs to be introduced from day one if you want the process to go smoothly.

2) You are extremely conflicted about the validity of open-handed playing. You continually talk about the fact that it's not necessary, etc. That attitude is conveyed to your students, and therefore they reject the idea. Honestly, I would prefer that you stop teaching open-handed drumming altogether so that you don't poison people against it who might discover it on their own someday.

One doesn't even need to learn it, nor to learn it to get a job. In theory it is great; but my experience tells me that is not the case that it is easy for kids to do all this extra work. That is my experience. If yours is different, god bless you.

Extra work? Actually, Ken, it sounds like you are the one speaking "in theory" here. I've already stated countless times that my students have zero difficulty switching lead hands. That is not theory. That is my experience with student after student after student. You have already admitted that you don't believe in this teaching approach and don't use it, so why do you claim to know the details of its effectiveness? Maybe it would be better for you to take the word of someone who actually has extensive experience in teaching with this approach.

When one analyzes these things one can see the truth of these things and the absurdity. Like the notion that people need to do this to get work or will in the future. Do you need this to keep a good groove for a well known artist? ask Zoro.

Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about. If this is the perspective that comes across when you are introducing open-handed playing to your students, then it truly would be better for you to not teach it at all. Why are you forcing yourself to teach something that you feel so conflicted about? Just let it go, and leave it to teachers like myself who are excited about it and committed to it.

Or like this one. Most of these guys that are using OHP are not using standard kits. They have hats on both sides. They have multiple toms not necessarily positioned in standard order. They have various accoutrements. If we are talking about the future of drumming, we are not talking about standard kits of taday. The standard kit twenty years ago is not the standard kit today.

Really? I play gigs in various clubs all over Manhattan, and they all have a house drumset. I also rehearse in various studios, and those also have a house drumset. In every case, the drumset is always the same: hi-hat on left, bass drum and ride on the right, 2 or more toms, a crash cymbal or 2. In other words, the same basic configuration that has been the norm since the days of Gene Krupa.

[Deltadrummer]

Matt , why then personal attacks. I have been nothing but open and honest and you have been making these acussations.

I don't have success with OHP because it is hard for kids to do in the beginning period. If your experiene is different, god bless you. I have had nearly two hundred students, and found only a small percentage take to this technique in the beginning. Poison people against the technique, come on let's get real. Get a grip on reality. I think I have demonstrated at least as thorough a knowledge of this technique as you and perhaps even more so. I just would rather my younger students learn rudiments, G.L Stone, how to read and interpret a chart, how to perform a contest solo, how to play different grooves and different styles, and genreally how to have a good grasp on what music is ,what phrasing is, What legato is, what a structure is, a verse, a head a chorus. All are certainly a lot more important than playing left hand lead.

[MattRitter]

Matt , why then personal attacks. I have been nothing but open and honest and you have been making these acussations.

I don't have success with OHP because it is hard for kids to do in the beginning period. If your experiene is different, god bless you. I have had nearly two hundred students, and found only a small percentage take to this technique in the beginning. Poison people against the technique, come on let's get real. Get a grip on reality. I think I have demonstrated at least as thorough a knowledge of this technique as you and perhaps even more so. I just would rather my younger students learn rudiments, G.L Stone, how to read and interpret a chart, how to perform a contest solo, how to play different grooves and different styles, and genreally how to have a good grasp on what music is ,what phrasing is, What legato is, what a structure is, a verse, a head a chorus. All are certainly a lot more important than playing left hand lead.

Frankly, Ken, I have found you to be a bit rude during the course of this thread. It is somewhat surprising to me, since I don't usually see you that way. Statements like "get a grip on reality" are really uncalled for. No one has "attacked" you or made "accusations" against you, Ken. But, yes, it does seem that you have felt very threatened by this thread for some reason. I've said it before, and I will say it again- if you feel this conflicted about open-handed playing, simply don't teach it. We don't all need to teach with the same approach. That is another one that I've said more than once here. Just teach as you see fit, and stop trying to discredit the approach of others.

[aydee]

As a mostly self taught lefty drummer, with 20 years of playing under my belt, I have over the years taught myself to play openhanded when I need to.

The transition was'nt easy but what pushed me into it was :

1.Learning the stickings of a lot of latin stuff ( easier to play/ sounded better, open handed )

2. When I actually needed a more powerful downstroke on the snare, and the cross hand would get in the way...

3. Having to deal with a lot of righty kits at gigs with minimal changes to the set up.

This has nothing to do with how one begins to learn, but I thought I'd throw this in.

* PS- Also what helped me hugely, again nothing to do with this discussion- was having a mirror in my practice space, which allows me to visualize my playing, especially when you are working of independence related stuff or changing something very intuitive about your playing.

[MattRitter]

As a mostly self taught lefty drummer, with 20 years of playing under my belt, I have over the years taught myself to play openhanded when I need to.

The transition was'nt easy but what pushed me into it was :

1.Learning the stickings of a lot of latin stuff ( easier to play/ sounded better, open handed )

2. When I actually needed a more powerful downstroke on the snare, and the cross hand would get in the way...

3. Having to deal with a lot of righty kits at gigs with minimal changes to the set up.

This has nothing to do with how one begins to learn, but I thought I'd throw this in.

* PS- What helped me hugely, again nothing to do with this discussion- was having a mirror in my practice space, which allows me to visualize my playing, especially when you are working of independence related stuff or changing something very intuitive about your playing.

Interesting point about getting a powerful stroke on the snare. DeathMetalConga has not chimed in on this thread yet, but he has an interesting perspective. He actually considers playing the hi-hat with the left hand to be the true RIGHTY approach to drumming because it puts the right hand in charge of the backbeat. He doesn't agree with my concept of teaching students to lead with both hands, but nonetheless, I find his perspective to be an interesting one. It just shows that there is more than one way to look at the lefty versus righty issue where drumming is concerned.

[Wavelength]

I started teaching one of my beginner students to play open-handed after he naturally placed his left hand on the hats. He's a righty, and his left hand leads better than his right.

[aydee]

It just shows that there is more than one way to look at the lefty versus righty issue where drumming is concerned.

It is interesting to me too from the point of view of working lefty drummers.

We 'grow up' a little different from the rest of the world in that we perform/play on more unfamiliar kits more often than not, and kinda learn real time to deal with the oddities of a left side hat or inverted toms, pedals whatever etc..

From the few lefty pros I've talked to, its just sheer circumstances that made them go open handed.

Generally I find them ( us ) unfussy and highly adaptable, able to make any arrangement of a kit sound good enough.

So who came up with cross handed anyway and messed us up so bad ? ; )

[MattRitter]

I've told this story before, but it warrants repeating here. Many years ago, I worked in the office of a famous drumming school. At the time, 4 of our instructors were left-handed...but almost no one was aware of it because all 4 of them played on standard kits with crossed arms! I asked a couple of them about it, and they told me that they did this because of the drummers they saw on TV when they were growing up! They saw drummers on TV playing with crossed arms, so they just copied that and never even thought about the issue of left-handed versus right-handed. We humans are so much more adaptable than we realize!

[aydee]

the drummers they saw on TV when they were growing up! They saw drummers on TV playing with crossed arms, so they just copied that and never even thought about the issue of left-handed versus right-handed.

Gene Krupa, what the heck were you thinking!! Its all your fault!

PS- Ya I agree. There is a little lemming in all of us. : )

[MattRitter]

Gene Krupa, what the heck were you thinking!! Its all your fault!

PS- Ya I agree. There is a little lemming in all of us. : )

And let's not forget Ringo! If anyone could have inspired the world to drum open-handed, it would have been Ringo. But instead, he crossed his arms. And he even considers himself to be a lefty!!!

[jjmason777]

Well, for me, I'm right handed. I've played the traditional crossed hand style for over 33 years now because it's how I was taught. One of my teachers was even a lefty, but also plays crossed on a "mirrored" kit. It never would have even occurred to me or any teacher at that time to play open handed. I am very comfortable playing this way, and really have no desire to change it now. Besides, you can't tell by listening to a recording how someone plays, and the main thing is being to get the sound/feel you are looking to achieve. Anyway, I have other things I'd rather work on before I would want to explore OHP. For example:
I just got Matt's Unburying the Beater DVD, and I am currently adding those techniques to my arsenal. Thanks Matt, well done! And would you believe it if I told you that up until now, my fastest doubles have always been heel down? Go figure.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[MattRitter]

Anyway, I have other things I'd rather work on before I would want to explore OHP. For example:
I just got Matt's Unburying the Beater DVD, and I am currently adding those techniques to my arsenal. Thanks Matt, well done! And would you believe it if I told you that up until now, my fastest doubles have always been heel down? Go figure.

I believe it. I know a few people that can play very fast that way too. For whatever reason, I was never able to do it. Actually, I was never too great with heel up either. If I had been really good at one of the traditional bass drum approaches (heel down or heel up), I never would have discovered the techniques that I demonstrate in my DVD. I wasn't trying to be some sort of bass drum vigilante- I was just trying to have a passable ability level with my foot. It didn't come easily to me, so I became somewhat obsessed with it. The result is all the stuff you've now seen in my video. Anyway, glad you're enjoying it. Thanks for letting me know.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Now that we're back in the normal thread, you might be interested to know that I was playing open-handed for just 11 months when I filmed my video. It wasn't up to the level of my cross-handed playing yet, but I knew already that I was going to stick with open-handed playing. Therefore, I didn't want to film myself playing with crossed arms. So...what you see in the video is me with 11 months of open-handed playing after 15 years of crossed playing. I just played basic grooves, but nonetheless, I think I pulled it off somewhat convincingly. It just shows how quickly we can make a change when we really set our minds to it.

[Deltadrummer]

Frankly, Ken, I have found you to be a bit rude during the course of this thread. It is somewhat surprising to me, since I don't usually see you that way. Statements like "get a grip on reality" are really uncalled for. No one has "attacked" you or made "accusations" against you, Ken. But, yes, it does seem that you have felt very threatened by this thread for some reason. I've said it before, and I will say it again- if you feel this conflicted about open-handed playing, simply don't teach it. We don't all need to teach with the same approach. That is another one that I've said more than once here. Just teach as you see fit, and stop trying to discredit the approach of others.

You said to me, "With all due respect, Ken, this is why you have not had success with teaching open-handed playing.. " This is an accusation, as though I am dong something wrong. Better said, " I have had success teaching OHP because I have taught OHP from the our set. I find that teaching it from the beginning is a better way to use it in instruction." I am not doing anythhing wrong. People do have a hard time with it.

I would assume your success is in part because you put a lot of emphasis on it. I put a lot of emphasis on rudiments and hand technqiue and my kids get outstanding on NYSSMA solos most of the time, again if they put in the time. If they don't practice, it does not matter how much time we spend on it in lesson. It doesn't happen.

Is it a valid question to ask, how much time should a beginner spend on OHP? I think that it is good and predictable that people have differing opinions on it. This is partly what I was alluding to with my comments about the absurd. In many years, will it seem absurd that in the past people used trad grip, or even crossed. Well, it is absurd if it is not natural to you, as many people say of OHP. It is totally practical if it works for you.

I don't find your experience to be a general rule. I would like to hear the expriences with this technique and young students from other people who teach. I would assume they would say you're going to find people for whom it is natural, people for whom it is more difficult, like anything else we teach. When they do have difficulty you have to ask how important is this technique to the student's progress at this time. Technique, reading and rudiments they need to learn as a beginner. For me, OHP is not as important.

[Deltadrummer]

It is interesting to me too from the point of view of working lefty drummers.

We 'grow up' a little different from the rest of the world in that we perform/play on more unfamiliar kits more often than not, and kinda learn real time to deal with the oddities of a left side hat or inverted toms, pedals whatever etc..

From the few lefty pros I've talked to, its just sheer circumstances that made them go open handed.

Generally I find them ( us ) unfussy and highly adaptable, able to make any arrangement of a kit sound good enough.

So who came up with cross handed anyway and messed us up so bad ? ; )

Abe, why do left handed drummers not just turn the kit around? It 's not like a guitar. Is it a micing issue? I switch for my lefty students. It takes two minutes.

The other question is when did you start learning on a lefty kit? Have you heard stories of people for whom learning on a rightie kit was an issue?

[aydee]

Abe, why do left handed drummers not just turn the kit around? It 's not like a guitar. Is it a micing issue? I switch for my lefty students. It takes two minutes.

The other question is when did you start learning on a lefty kit? Have you heard stories of people for whom learning on a rightie kit was an issue?

Well, it takes much longer to switch the whole enchilada around.. mounted toms, ride cymbal positions, snare, hats... God help you if they've got a righty double pedal hooked up. And you're right if the kit is miked , the sound guys will look at you like " why were you born left handed, anyway" any they will sigh and roll their eyes while you try and do the switcheroo, just pissing you off. As a matter of fact I just started by simply exchanging the snare /floor tom positions...just so the sound guys wouldn't hate me..

I think lefties have to basically deal with a right handed world and we come up with our own individual solutions to our musical issues. I struggled with a righty kit when I started playing. I'd manage somewhat but I HAD to have my left foot on the bass pedal and my left hand HAD to define the pulse ( quarter notes/16th notes...). As I got better, the rhythm moved more to my center and I didn't have to rely so much on these two crutches.

Here's the funny thing about me that you dont know. I play a mean guitar ( even if I say so myself ) UPSIDE DOWN. A right handed guitar, strung right-handed. I learned on other people's guitars and I play everything inverted. chords, lead lines everything!
It absolutely freaks people out, and they go " wow thats amazing... how did you learn to do that?".

I dont really want to tell them that it comes very easily & very naturally to me..... plus i know no other way

[MattRitter]

You said to me, "With all due respect, Ken, this is why you have not had success with teaching open-handed playing.. " This is an accusation, as though I am dong something wrong. Better said, " I have had success teaching OHP because I have taught OHP from the our set. I find that teaching it from the beginning is a better way to use it in instruction." I am not doing anythhing wrong. People do have a hard time with it.

I would assume your success is in part because you put a lot of emphasis on it. I put a lot of emphasis on rudiments and hand technqiue and my kids get outstanding on NYSSMA solos most of the time, again if they put in the time. If they don't practice, it does not matter how much time we spend on it in lesson. It doesn't happen.

Is it a valid question to ask, how much time should a beginner spend on OHP?

Hi, Ken. I appreciate the more civil tone you've adopted in this post. I apologize if you felt accused of something. That was never my intention. I realize that it was unfair for me to definitively declare the reasons for your troubles with teaching open-handed playing. I apologize. I cannot possibly know all of the details of what goes on in your studio, so it was unfair of me to speak on it like that. At the same time, I invite you to look back through all of your posts in this thread, and see the general tone that you set between us from the beginning. I think you will be surprised at what you find. You will see numerous times when you flat-out said that something I reported was untrue. You will see countless times when you said that open-handed playing (and the teaching of it) is unimportant or less important than other things. You used words like "absurd." You have told me it's not good for me to "hold up the exception as the rule." And so on, and so on...
Meanwhile, if you look through my posts, you will not even find one instance where I bashed the notion of teaching cross-handed playing. Of course, I've probably done so in this forum in the past, but I didn't happen to do so this time. hahaha

I have had good interactions with you prior to this, Ken, so I am just going to chalk this up to a misunderstanding from both ends.

Speaking of misunderstandings...I still do not feel that I have clearly explained how I teach open-handed playing and why I believe that you may be having difficulty getting your students to accept it. Even in this most recent post, you are talking about open-handed playing as a topic of its own- a particular skill to teach or learn. I guess that is a valid perspective. However, as someone with great success teaching open-handed playing, I will offer you this: I never refer to open-handed playing or present open-handed playing as a specific topic to learn on the drums. The topic of open-handed playing does not replace other topics in my studio because it is not treated as a topic at all! On the first day, I simply tell my beginner students that we want both hands to be strong. Therefore, whenever we practice something with the right hand, we will also practice it with the left, and vice versa.

That's all, Ken. That's what I say to my students, and that is exactly what we do. I never get into a discussion of it being necessary, or unnecessary, or a technique for beginners, or a technique for intermediates, or a technique that will get them drumming jobs, or a technique that won't get them drumming jobs, or a technique that Zoro likes or doesn't like. All of that strikes me as very complicated, and I'm sure it would turn my students off. In my studio, we don't even use the phrase "open-handed playing." Most of my beginners probably don't even know what that term means. And we certainly don't set aside a special portion of each lesson for this! Again, all of that strikes me as too complicated. Whenever we work on drumming grooves, we simply make sure to practice everything leading with both hands. Thats the whole thing- very simple and straight forward. I've said it before, and I will say it again (no matter how unbelievable it may sound)- no beginner student of mine has ever found this to be particularly challenging.

Does this give you a better picture of how my lessons involve open-handed playing (even though we don't generally use that term in my studio)? If so, and you feel compelled to try it someday, go for it. If this sounds ridiculous to you, then simply ignore it and keep teaching in the way that is working on your end. I am happy to have an approach which is somewhat unique. If everyone starts teaching this way, maybe it'll put me out of business!

Thanks, Ken. Truce! hahaha

[Boomka]

Something that isn't being discussed here is that the idea of playing 'open-handed' tends to be associated with playing more "freely" and "naturally". However, it's actually just letting the dominant form of equipment set-up dictate how we play; no more or less than playing "cross-handed".

In favour of cross-handedness on the standard set-up is the simple fact that limb dominance is set very early on in our brain development. Contrary to many assertions made in the drumming community and elsewhere, ambidexterity is NOT our natural state. Far from it. In fact, limb dominance is set in the womb and effects the way our motor-sensory functions work so deeply that some researchers have gone as far as to call those who are born truly "ambidextrous" to be brain damaged. In short, they've missed out on a key stage of motor-sensory development in the womb.

Moreover, my experience is that beginner drums have a heck of a time getting their right hands to play solid feeling time, let alone trying to get them to do it with their weak hand, regardless of whether or not I emphasise this or not. Moreover, as with any sort of movement, our bodies tend to follow our stronger limbs. This is a matter of physical conditioning set over years and years of habit, and not something that is going to be adjusted in a matter of a few drum lessons. There is, therefore a very strong argument for allowing the dominant hand to be - you guessed it - dominant, and having the weaker limbs follow it. Since the dominant role in most basic timekeeping is playing ostinatos, it makes every bit as much sense to work with a beginner in that way.

Granted, careful and diligent attention must be paid to bringing the weak hand up to snuff, but until it is, what harm is there in playing "cross-handed"? None that I can see. With good ergonomics and the practice of relaxed posture and stroke motions, our bodies are perfectly capable of holding a position with the arms crossed for long periods without excessive fatigue or injury. Moreover, the placement of the arms in space makes absolutely no difference to the brain's ability to send signals to them. As such, we're largely left with the argument that cross-handedness doesn't allow each limb enough space, however, this can be addressed with kit set-up and has been overcome by generations of drummers. Both methods have their place.

Lastly, while we're busy heralding an "evolution" in drumming, it is every bit as likely that there will continue to be an evolution in equipment technology. In fact, it is already possible, by way of remote hihats, and electronics, to place the hihat cymbals and pedal on opposite sides of the kit. Perhaps the real "solution" is simply to continue playing with the dominant hand (the reason the ride cymbal is where it is in most set-ups) and develope a better remote hihat...

[MattRitter]

Something that isn't being discussed here is that the idea of playing 'open-handed' tends to be associated with playing more "freely" and "naturally". However, it's actually just letting the dominant form of equipment set-up dictate how we play; no more or less than playing "cross-handed".

Very logical statement.

Moreover, my experience is that beginner drums have a heck of a time getting their right hands to play solid feeling time, let alone trying to get them to do it with their weak hand,

This is where I must differ. I don't know why, but my real-life experiences have just been very different than this. As stated earlier, I have taught over 300 private students. At the moment, I can only think of 4 that had difficulty tapping basic steady time along with a recording. Have I just been blessed by encountering exceptional students? On the first lesson, we put on headphones with a medium/slow rock song, and I have the students tap 8th notes with their left stick. I also have them tap 8th notes with their right stick. They always manage to do this very solidly, without the slightest difficulty with either hand. Eventually, we add a backbeat. Eventually, we add some bass drum. And so on. After a few weeks, they are playing basic drum grooves, leading with both hands and keeping steady time. Of course, there may be some who think I am simply lying. However...assuming that I am speaking the truth...what do you think the explanation is for this phenomenon in my studio that is apparently so unusual?

[Boomka]

You must be a better man than I. :D

[drumhead61]

You must be a better man than I. :D

You know I really do not see what makes him such a better man...I agree with his approach for the simple reason of when I was in martial arts my Sensi always and I mean always had us lead off all of our kata or exercises with the left hand or foot. For those that were left handed this was a blessing for those of us who had to learn to use said appendage that was another story all together. He had everyone practice in this vane and each and everyone of us gained, strength, coordination, power, and accuracy with those weaker vessels. That was how we started every person who came into that dojo there were no exceptions unless that individual did not have a left arm or leg they were going to start off just as anyone else in that school and you know we all did it very well.

So, I can see how Matt has success in this arena. It seems that there are some who think this is not the way to go and so be it they may teach another way and have success as well, but as for me I can see how it could work for young and old alike. I know when I use to teach children martial arts they had to learn just as I did and that was starting everything off with the left hand or foot and they too were all successful because they had that commitment to do it. If they did not have the commitment they like any other student in their manner would fade away simply due to lack of interest.

[Boomka]

Note the emoticon... I was teasing.

I'm in no way advocating against training the weak side of the body. Far from it. I put all my students through their paces with both left and right. That said, regardless of how much time you put in doing katas off of your weak foot, I'll bet I'd still prefer to take a punch from your non-dominant hand...

I'm simply posing a question: why have we constructed asymmetricality of our limbs as a negative? Why do we not currently frame it as a positive - or at least neutral - condition to be worked with? This harkens to the traditional vs. matched grip debate, apropos of which Tony Williams said, "I like having a right and a left." We quite simply are limb dominant. That's a precondition of our biology in the overwhelming majority of cases. And yet we have a whole philosophy dedicated to trying to "remedy" this "problem" which nature has seen fit to saddle us with.

I think we are remiss to paint one or another trend/fad in drumming as the sign of the true "evolution" of our craft. For starters, for all their predictive powers, few might've imagined that the multi-percussion instrument - as Max used to call it - would develop the way it has only a few decades ago. Moreover, are we not forgetting that it's the spirit of discovery and ingenuity that will drive drumming down different alleyways and that proclaiming this or that to be the "correct" direction simply preempts any number of potential paths of "improvement" and expression.

But beyond all that, I don't care if a player plays their hihats with their left kidney, if that mutha can swing, they've got my support.

[Boomka]

At the moment, I can only think of 4 that had difficulty tapping basic steady time along with a recording.

I think we need to be careful not slip off the topic of open-handed playing and into the question of the necessity to train both sides of the body. They aren't the same issue, in my mind. Regardless of whether I'm playing cross-handed, open-handed or with my hihat under my throne, it is necessary to train both sides of the body up to the highest possible standard.

On another tangent: in examining this fad, I wonder why violinists don't turn their instruments around and learn to do everything with both hands? Why do saxophonists not feel the necessity to turn the mechanisms on their horns around to play with the right hand on top? In both cases, they still require great dexterity in both limbs, and yet no one has perceived it as a weakness to have the hands doing slightly different, complimentary work.

[Deltadrummer]

You must be a better man than I. :D

Well, you and are on on the same ship. If you noticed, "your logical statment" is what I have been saying and is what I meant when I joked about right handed players playing leftie kits. I though it was a moment of dada brilliance; but it didn't seem anybody got the pun.

And Matt. I haven't even begun to put you through the ringer. ) This is what people like about me, right?

But seriously, I wondered if your experience was atypical. And put you through the ringer.

I really got angry with a kid last week because after two weeks of teaching him the five stroke roll, he kept playing RLRLR. So I said six times it is not RLRLR, it is RRLLR LLRRL. And he played RLRLR. And I really got angry and told him he needed to practice this stuff. I also told his mother he needed to practice if we were going to make any progress. So this week he comes in and says I didn't get a chance to practice, then asks me how to do a roll, as though I had never showed him. We took out the five stroke roll, I slowly said, RRLLR LLRRL and he played RLRLR. I didn't lose. I gave up. And I made my decision. He did leave knowing the five stroke roll; but let's see what will happen next week. You see, in my studio, you learn the five stroke roll or you don't get on the kit. And some kids think they know better and think they don't have to learn the rudiments. That's not the way I teach.

[Alex Luce]

I am a right-handed drummer who plays the high-hat with my right hand in front of my left hand. What do they call that?

[MattRitter]

I am a right-handed drummer who plays the high-hat with my right hand in front of my left hand. What do they call that?

Smart! I've seen Omar Hakim play that way. When I used to play the hi-hat with my right hand, I often did the same thing.

[Alex Luce]

Okay, I am going to call it the Omar Hakim Method! Unless someone has a better idea...

[MattRitter]

Well, you and are on on the same ship. If you noticed, "your logical statment" is what I have been saying and is what I meant when I joked about right handed players playing leftie kits. I though it was a moment of dada brilliance; but it didn't seem anybody got the pun.

And Matt. I haven't even begun to put you through the ringer. ) This is what people like about me, right?

But seriously, I wondered if your experience was atypical. And put you through the ringer because I am thinking about leaving my job, and was wondering if perhaps my experience was typical of work in music store. My private students fair much better, in general.

I really got angry with a kid last week because after two weeks of teaching him the five stroke roll, he kept playing RLRLR. So I said six times it is not RLRLR, it is RRLLR LLRRL. And he played RLRLR. And I really got angry and told him he needed to practice this stuff. I also told his mother he needed to practice if we were going to make any progress. So this week he comes in and says I didn't get a chance to practice, then asks me how to do a roll, as though I had never showed him. We took out the five stroke roll, I slowly said, RRLLR LLRRL and he played RLRLR. I didn't lose. I gave up. And I made my decision. He did leave knowing the five stroke roll; but let's see what will happen next week. You see, in my studio, you learn the five stroke roll or you don't get on the kit. And some kids think they know better and think they don't have to learn the rudiments. That's not the way I teach.

Sounds pretty frustrating, Ken. I guess we've all had those lessons.

As far as teaching in a music store vs. teaching privately...

I can't really say since I've never taught at a music store. However, I did teach at an elementary school, and I will tell you that I wasn't crazy about it. In general, I find that students take their lessons more seriously and value them more when they are paying for those lessons themselves. That's one of the reasons that I prefer teaching adults. Children don't pay for their lessons themselves, so I think they sometimes view the lessons as another class they are forced to take! Anyway, that's just a hypothesis. I guess we've gotten off the thread topic here...

[MattRitter]

Well...one thing is becoming pretty clear about the future of drum education: It will be very diverse! We're going to have teachers who advocate crossed arms, open-handed playing, ambidexterity, hi-hat hand in front of the snare hand, matched grip, traditional grip, reversed drumsets, remote hi-hats, double bass, single bass, and countless other varieties. Actually, it seems like this is the case even now in the present! I don't think it was always like this. I think there probably was a time when nearly all drum teachers taught the same basic approach. So, yeah, I think the future of drum education may hold increased diversity and a tremendously broad range of approaches.

[Deltadrummer]

Working with kids has its rewards though.

At the beginning of the school year I was meticulously going over my curriculum. The basis is to integrate the rudimental exercises into the drum set instruction. I was up til 3 am the night before. I've been working with this eight year old for about a year now and I worked the youngster through this rudimental routine and sat him on the set to work on some grooves. He looks up at me and says, 'hey, that's just like the rudiment you just showed me." I looked at him and said, "Kid, you don't know what it means to me to hear you say that."

[Boomka]

I can't really say since I've never taught at a music store. However, I did teach at an elementary school, and I will tell you that I wasn't crazy about it. In general, I find that students take their lessons more seriously and value them more when they are paying for those lessons themselves. That's one of the reasons that I prefer teaching adults. Children don't pay for their lessons themselves, so I think they sometimes view the lessons as another class they are forced to take! Anyway, that's just a hypothesis. I guess we've gotten off the thread topic here...

I just noticed this, and I wonder if it has much to do with the varying results getting new players to use their left hands. I'm teaching a lot of young kids in schools who look at their drum lessons like any other lesson. They want to be entertained, not "taught" (at least as I understand the term) and are often loathe to put the time and dedication into practice. We all seem to agree that the key to weak side developement is the effort to do it. My private students are better in this regard, and I've had far, far less trouble working on this kind of thing with them.

[Boomka]

I am a right-handed drummer who plays the high-hat with my right hand in front of my left hand. What do they call that?

Billy Ward, Bart Elliot (and I, for that matter) often play this way as well.

One drawback I have in teaching this to my students is that when you're working with children there are often problems getting the pedals close enough (unless you use a smaller snare drum, mind you) and a good sitting position. Most equipment is built for adults. Putting the Hihats at 11 o'clock in relation to the snare often puts the foot pedal too far away for short legs.

[Deltadrummer]

Okay, I am going to call it the Omar Hakim Method! Unless someone has a better idea...


Bill Bruford does something similar as well. He has the HH in the middle of the kit, with a remote pedal. The toms are aligned on the flloor. He said he did this to get different fill ideas. Of course you can no longer do "digga digga digga digga down the drums." That's a great chorus for a song.

I tried it more so like you have it and liked it because if you want to get the left stick over on to the snare and the hh is low for OHP, you can have a space issue. I had it for a while where the ride cymbal was in the middle of the kit with the thought of putting the most used instrument in the easiest accessible place. You could also access it with either hand. If you play a lot of jazz you would traditionally use a four piece; but once you add that third tom, your ride is now moving further away, and that is your most used accoutrement.

One of the things that Dom F teaches and is a big part of the Claus Hessler book is the Moeller method with OHP. The Moeller generates a lot of energy, esp with the whip. So it helps to reinforce the weaker hand ride, which is still an issue for me and has always been. I've actually been doing OHP since about 1978.

I think that part of the reason for getting young kids to use the OHP is so that that weaker hand is starting to develop very early, so that's why I don't switch my kids unless it becomes a struggle for them. I bring this up becauwe I think you lever system would also be an asset to OHP, esp since you are thinking more about energizing playing through natural body movements, which I found to be a compelling and important idea when you introduced it to me.

[MattRitter]

I think that part of the reason for getting young kids to use the OHP is so that that weaker hand is starting to develop very early, so that's why I don't switch my kids unless it becomes a struggle for them.

In my studio, I never have to "switch" anyone to dominant hand lead because dominant hand lead is already an equal part of my normal curriculum anyway. In other words, I would never take a right-handed drummer and only teach them to lead with their left hand. If I did that, I would feel that I was being very unfair to the student. Also, I'm sure it would lead to some students knocking on my door with a shotgun 10 years down the road- "Why did you never teach me to lead with my dominant hand?!!!" Yikes! I certainly don't want to be answering to that one! So instead, I simply teach everyone to lead with BOTH hands. That way, I am not cheating them out of any traditional skills. I am simply giving them an ADDITIONAL skill. In other words, my students can always lead with crossed arms at any time that they choose.

On another note, I had an interesting thing happen while teaching yesterday. I had 2 students yesterday, and I was thinking very much about this thread. I asked both students if they have developed a preference for right hand lead or left hand lead over their years of practicing these two different ways. Believe it or not, BOTH students said they feel somewhat more comfortable leading with the left! How on Earth do we explain that one?! Keep in mind that these students are officially "right-handed." I would have been very happy if they just said they felt equally comfortable leading with both hands. Instead, they both claimed to prefer leading with the left! The plot thickens!

The only explanation I can come up with right now is that maybe a hi-hat is just an easier instrument to play on than a ride cymbal. In my studio, we use a standard setup (hi-hat on left, ride on right). Therefore, when we practice left hand lead, we do it on the hi-hat. When we practice right hand lead, we do it on the ride. I sometimes have people play crossed over too, but normally we don't bother with that since they're already getting plenty of time leading with each hand. So, I'm thinking maybe these students THINK they feel better leading with the left hand, but really they just feel better hitting a hi-hat instead of a ride cymbal, which is more difficult to control. I don't know...but I figured I better report this here!

[Deltadrummer]

On another note, I had an interesting thing happen while teaching yesterday. I had 2 students yesterday, and I was thinking very much about this thread. I asked both students if they have developed a preference for right hand lead or left hand lead over their years of practicing these two different ways. Believe it or not, BOTH students said they feel somewhat more comfortable leading with the left! How on Earth do we explain that one?! Keep in mind that these students are officially "right-handed." I would have been very happy if they just said they felt equally comfortable leading with both hands. Instead, they both claimed to prefer leading with the left! The plot thickens! !


I think that part of it is that using the left hand accesses a part of the mind that is centered on creativity. Left hand right brain, kind of a thing. One of the things that I have found in my practive is that it is often easier to do complex patterns with a left hand lead.

The other thing that I have found is that once you learn something, it is very easy to switch it. I switched from RHL to OHP in three weeks. Sounds like an infommercial. But it was enver an issue for Ringo or David Garibaldi to play rightie, why should it be an issue for any righties who learn with a LHL.

Also, the hands can teach each other because of their differences. And this gets into the idea of having a strong and a weak hand. There are stong and weak beats in music. I think this is part of what Tony Williams was saying.

[abe]

In my studio, I never have to "switch" anyone to dominant hand lead because dominant hand lead is already an equal part of my normal curriculum anyway. In other words, I would never take a right-handed drummer and only teach them to lead with their left hand. If I did that, I would feel that I was being very unfair to the student. Also, I'm sure it would lead to some students knocking on my door with a shotgun 10 years down the road- "Why did you never teach me to lead with my dominant hand?!!!" Yikes! I certainly don't want to be answering to that one! So instead, I simply teach everyone to lead with BOTH hands. That way, I am not cheating them out of any traditional skills. I am simply giving them an ADDITIONAL skill. In other words, my students can always lead with crossed arms at any time that they choose.

On another note, I had an interesting thing happen while teaching yesterday. I had 2 students yesterday, and I was thinking very much about this thread. I asked both students if they have developed a preference for right hand lead or left hand lead over their years of practicing these two different ways. Believe it or not, BOTH students said they feel somewhat more comfortable leading with the left! How on Earth do we explain that one?! Keep in mind that these students are officially "right-handed." I would have been very happy if they just said they felt equally comfortable leading with both hands. Instead, they both claimed to prefer leading with the left! The plot thickens!

The only explanation I can come up with right now is that maybe a hi-hat is just an easier instrument to play on than a ride cymbal. In my studio, we use a standard setup (hi-hat on left, ride on right). Therefore, when we practice left hand lead, we do it on the hi-hat. When we practice right hand lead, we do it on the ride. I sometimes have people play crossed over too, but normally we don't bother with that since they're already getting plenty of time leading with each hand. So, I'm thinking maybe these students THINK they feel better leading with the left hand, but really they just feel better hitting a hi-hat instead of a ride cymbal, which is more difficult to control. I don't know...but I figured I better report this here!

I started to put emphasis on left hand training some 8 month ago. Month ago I tried to learn Jojo Mayer's valving technique just for fun. Since it was my left hand practice time, I for the first time in my life (as much as I can remember) learned something with left hand first. After some weeks I realized that I haven't tried it with my right hand yet. I expected my right hand to be flying after just few tries. However it didn't happen. I couldn't believe that, because usually it was better at everything. Now I practice to catch up my left hand :D

[Jeff Almeyda]

I believe that the technicalities of which hand you use to hit which drum are just minor issues. The true future of drumming lies in the ability to communicate finer shades of emotion on the kit. This includes phrasing mastery of the rhythm scale from 1 to 19 notes per beat (or more), extremely high levels of coordination, and the ability to hear and play multiple time signatures at once, all with perfect timing and feel.

In modern music, the drums are an accompanying instrument, more or less. The future lies in the development of MUSICAL concepts and techniques which will enable the drummer to fulfill his role in the rhythm section while bringing in a whole new level of expression. If something like open handed playing helps achieve this, fine but it should never be confused with the art of making music.

Look at guys like Gavin and Virgil. They don't play "open handed" per se and Virgil uses an "outdated" grip. Yet their playing is truly modern.

The greatest hidden secret in all of drumming is the true nature of rhythm. Rhythm is not limited to quarters, eighths, triplets and sixteenths, Sometime rhythms can be 11 notes spaced over 2 beats phrased across three toms. Exposing the future drummers to the true expanse of rhythm will change music more than any "drumistic" technique.

[Boomka]

I believe that the technicalities of which hand you use to hit which drum are just minor issues. The true future of drumming lies in the ability to communicate finer shades of emotion on the kit. This includes phrasing mastery of the rhythm scale from 1 to 19 notes per beat (or more), extremely high levels of coordination, and the ability to hear and play multiple time signatures at once, all with perfect timing and feel.

In modern music, the drums are an accompanying instrument, more or less. The future lies in the development of MUSICAL concepts and techniques which will enable the drummer to fulfill his role in the rhythm section while bringing in a whole new level of expression. If something like open handed playing helps achieve this, fine but it should never be confused with the art of making music.

Look at guys like Gavin and Virgil. They don't play "open handed" per se and Virgil uses an "outdated" grip. Yet their playing is truly modern.

The greatest hidden secret in all of drumming is the true nature of rhythm. Rhythm is not limited to quarters, eighths, triplets and sixteenths, Sometime rhythms can be 11 notes spaced over 2 beats phrased across three toms. Exposing the future drummers to the true expanse of rhythm will change music more than any "drumistic" technique.

Probably the best post yet.

[Deltadrummer]

I

Look at guys like Gavin and Virgil. They don't play "open handed" per se and Virgil uses an "outdated" grip. Yet their playing is truly modern.

The greatest hidden secret in all of drumming is the true nature of rhythm. Rhythm is not limited to quarters, eighths, triplets and sixteenths, Sometime rhythms can be 11 notes spaced over 2 beats phrased across three toms. Exposing the future drummers to the true expanse of rhythm will change music more than any "drumistic" technique.

I agree with you here execpt I would say that I want drummers to be drummistic. This is the challenge we face as teachers. Teaching students how to make the world of drums musical.

Steve Gadd is an example of a drummer who uses concepts that are drummistic: rudiments, open-handed playing and march rhythms. But he uses them in a way that is musical and adds to the composition of the songs in a unique way. Drummers going back to Buddy, Philly Jo, Max, or Dave Garibaldi have been successful because they were able to take these drummistic concepts and make them music. This is no easy task when you are the guy who sits back there does have "tones" to play, no melody, no harmony like everyone else.

I agree the future of drummers is going to be what Chick Webb, Buddy, Papa Jo, Gadd and Omar do, and that is sitting back and setting a groove for a popular song. Popular music is by and large vocal music, and vocal music is by and large what sells.

I think that the concern here is a valid one. What if I teach my 8 year old lead hand lead and he can't develop a left hand taht allos him to play what he needs to play. I don't
think that is a concern because many guys on this forum have said that they do just that without a problem. But even twenty or thirty years ago OHP was a controversial issue when it comes to teaching. The only teacher I ever heard mention it was Dom, who at the time was playing trad grip. When a lot of us were experimenting with this back in the day, there was no one to go to and say "what do I do" except perhaps if you were lucky to come across Gary Chester.

The issue of how do I teach left hand lead to a beginner when there is so much else to teach? or How does a student develop the stregnth needed to use left hand lead. Or when do I start to instroduce this concept? or what do I do when a kid has trouble with the concept? These are good questions for teachers to be asking.

I have had the benefit of living in NY,as you guys as well, so we have accessed some of the greatest teachers around, and sometimes they disagree vehemently about things. And there you are the student left to sort it all out. I should add that they are also all right in their beliefs, which makes it even a messier situation. :)

Now people use Moeller and Stone with Gladstone and Adler technique, as I do. But if you meet guys in the mid-50s and have a discussion with them about these techniques, you can find many guys who are still back in 1970 when these students had major disagreements about something as simple as hand technique. Or the Krupa v Buddy crowd. They are still around and a lot of fun to talk to.

As far as OHP it is today. The guy in Celtic woman,which ihas been played constantly for pledge month, is using it in the video. I see a lot of country and western guys using it as well. So it is certainly here to stay.

[oops]

Jumping on Jeff Almeyda's topic briefly:

I had a drum workshop with an Australian tabla player, he spent 10 years in India, just working on his tabla playing.

He talked about how the tabla has a 'repertoire', a vast 'library' of songs purely for the tabla, solo tunes, duo tunes, group tunes. (Compare it to the jazz standards tradition I suppose, having tunes that people cut their teeth on, memorize, use to bring their chops up to a certain level etc...) in the same way that all piano players will learn Autumn Leaves, or All The Things You Are, all tabla players learn this 'tabla repertoire'.

He talked about how the way of the future for drummers is to develop their own 'repertoire'. Solo pieces that can be used to work on different ideas, (ie. if you want to learn septuplets, you take a piece from the 'septuplet repertoire' and practice it, memorize it, perform it for others, jam it out with other drummers...)

In jazz especially, drummers are playing with time, with emotion, with dynamic intensity, and I for one haven't worked enough on my time that I can comfortably use subdivisions outside of 3s or 4s.

Maybe I'm rambling, maybe I should rephrase some of this, but:

Maybe this is where we should be heading.

[Avendesoran]

Interesting point about getting a powerful stroke on the snare. DeathMetalConga has not chimed in on this thread yet, but he has an interesting perspective. He actually considers playing the hi-hat with the left hand to be the true RIGHTY approach to drumming because it puts the right hand in charge of the backbeat. He doesn't agree with my concept of teaching students to lead with both hands, but nonetheless, I find his perspective to be an interesting one. It just shows that there is more than one way to look at the lefty versus righty issue where drumming is concerned.

Wow I realized that this is exactly why I play open handed!

Controlling the backbeat with my right hand, playing in that 2/4 pocket with my right hand! That also explains why my left hand is still weak in comparison to my right even though OHP is supposed to be a left lead position. The bass was 1,3 and the snare was 2,4 the left hand filled up the space.

Now I'm working on my left hand leads / my weak hand leads so I can get those awesome hihat and ride patterns going! This is great I really learned something about my playing =D

The future of education? imo,
First you need to learn to get a feel for the groove, the beat, the pocket and timing. Much easier to do when you can put your strong hand in charge of the back beat.
Then you learn weak hand lead patterns to add spice to the groove on your hats and ride.
Finally with your now stronger "Weak Hand" and your natural leader "Strong Hand" rudiments and fills will develop much easier!

That's another thing too, by learning left hand lead patterns it makes rudiments that alternate between leading hands (paradiddle, 9 stroke roll, etc...) so much more approachable.

my 2cents
Drumming is all about learning the techniques to express yourself musically and rhythmicly, the more tools you learn to use the greater ability you have to express yourself in the music.

[Alex Luce]

One drawback I have in teaching this to my students is that when you're working with children there are often problems getting the pedals close enough (unless you use a smaller snare drum, mind you) and a good sitting position. Most equipment is built for adults. Putting the Hihats at 11 o'clock in relation to the snare often puts the foot pedal too far away for short legs.

This is true. One fix for that is putting the snare drum on the left side of the high-hat, which is what I did with my son's Ludwig Jr. kit. Then you can play open-handed without switching hands...ha ha!

Another issue with the high-hat at 11 o'clock is having to put the double pedal on the left side of the high-hat stand. My leg would bang the snare drum if I put the double pedal on the right side.

Cheers,

Alex

[SGT_Drummer]

Of course you can no longer do "digga digga digga digga down the drums." That's a great chorus for a song.

I just ROFL'd for like 10 minutes, that is frickin hilarious. I've never seen anyone type out "digga digga" before. haha, i'm still laughing!

[Alex Luce]

I think that part of the reason for getting young kids to use the OHP is so that that weaker hand is starting to develop very early, so that's why I don't switch my kids unless it becomes a struggle for them. I bring this up becauwe I think you lever system would also be an asset to OHP, esp since you are thinking more about energizing playing through natural body movements, which I found to be a compelling and important idea when you introduced it to me.

Ken: I think this thread died, but I wanted to reply to your post (been sick as a dog for the last week).

Yes, the thing about the lever stroke in relation to OHP is I know the fundamental movement of my left and right arms are exactly the same. Meaning, when using matched grip, if I compare full single strokes performed by my left and right arms they look and feel identical.

However, I only use OHP when necessary. Personally, I like having a "ride" specialist and a "backbeat" specialist. My right hand is definitely better at the high-hat and ride cymbal, and my left-hand is definitely better with the backbeat...simply because they do it more. However, when I sit down at the drumpad my hands feel the same. I don't feel like I have a weak hand. Probably because I usually do alternating rudimental playing on the pad that utilizes both hands equally. But also because I am using both my arms as lever systems, I know I am getting equal power from both sides of my body when playing these rudiments.

As I've mentioned before, we create power in drumming by using motion, not muscular strength. And as I think someone else said, I am not sure how much being left or right handed has to do with proper drumming. If OHP can help with developing a weaker hand that is great, but care should be taken to insure the drummer is using proper form with both hands/arms. Of course, I realize as a teacher that is not always something you have control over.

Regards,

Alex